Hidden True Crime - PSYCHOLOGIST REACTS | Lori Daybell's New Jailhouse Interview

Episode Date: April 6, 2025

Lori Daybell has given yet another jailhouse interview and Dr. John Matthias is here to share his thoughts on what the things she says, really mean. Get the sleep you deserve with up to 35% off Dream. Just click https://shopbeam.com/hiddentruecrime and use code TRUECRIME at checkout About Hidden True Crime: What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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in court, another video came out with the local Phoenix CBS station. It's Arizona Family Channel 3, the reporter is Brianna, and she was able to go in and interview Lori Valladabelle. And while we have heard from Lori two other times from Keith Morrison, Dateline, as well as her own son, Colby, we did not know or expect this third interview before opening statements on Monday. And I quickly watched it. I wanted you to watch it. I sent it to you. and I want to know your thoughts.

So full disclosure, everyone, I do not know what John thinks. He watched it. He said he was ready, and here we are. So this is like our phone call talking about it before we talked about it with each other. Just a note, you sent it last night at like 11.30 p.m. So I'm like, okay, it was a little too late for me to get to it last night, but I did watch it this morning and hence here we are. What did I think of it?

Well, her tone is a lot more benign than it was with Keith Morrison. She seems to be calmer. And she's, right, her approach is calmer and gentler than it certainly was with Keith. With Keith, she was very combative and oppositional. So you're not seeing that here, which is interesting. I wonder if I think she feels less threatened with Brianna for whatever reasons. and she, I think one of the, although we didn't see the entire Keith Morrison interview meeting, we didn't see the parts that weren't on the show.

But I think Keith was probably asking tougher questions. And Keith was really kind of challenging her to her core about certain things, her beliefs. And obviously that didn't go particularly well, that, you know, that creating a certain amount of anger. I don't know, though. It's hard to know with Keith because we only really saw a couple minutes with Keith and Arizona family has actually given us her full interview. So I feel like those two things are hard to compare. Yeah, I don't. I'm just pointing out the contrast. I think the contrast is interesting. Let's dig into it. She begins with the interviewer, Brianna, begins with why we're representing. yourself and then Lori gets on this long rambling obtuse answer about helping women and jail that they're you know being subjected to these inhumane conditions and they have to eat slop and somehow she's going to represent them or advocate for them so she sees herself as kind of a

a prisoner rights advocate of sorts, I guess. That's kind of her answer. But I think the other part of her answer is that she is showing these women that that she can represent herself to get a speedy trial. She kind of implies that the only way to get a speedy trial in Arizona is to represent yourself. So that's part of the reason. I mean, the answer, when somebody asked me a question, why represent yourself? It seems like I should know that fairly easily.

And she doesn't really, I mean, I guess she does, but she's rambling a little bit. She's not super coherent. It takes her a while to answer. Her answer doesn't really bit very well. It doesn't make a huge amount of sense. I mean, I kind of get it. But, you know, so my point here is that you're seeing her thought process a little bit, right? This is an important question.

Why represent yourself? Yeah. And she's really struggling to formulate a coherent answer. I don't think that bodes well for representing herself in trial. I know I mentioned that the other day, but you have to wonder if she's going to be on point or if she's going to be direct and focused during this trial based upon this interview and based upon, you know, why represent yourself? I mean, she didn't really, I guess she wants to set an example of for these other

eight women that are, according to her, that are innocent and improperly accused in jailed in Arizona. And she wants to be an advocate for them. She wants to lead by example. It's another part of her mission, I feel. Yeah. She needs a mission. She always needs a mission.

But it doesn't really, I mean, so is she saying, it doesn't really answer the question. So is she saying that she wants them based on her example to represent themselves? or is she going to make statements at trial to defend these women? It's confusing, right? Like, she doesn't really, again, like, what's, she doesn't say because I think I can put on a better case and I want a speedy trial. And I think that, I mean, she does, she kind of answers it later.

Later on, she says, I'm, what she says, essentially, I mean, not in response to this first question, but what she says is, I'm there to tell the truth. She says she's wrongfully accused, and she wants to tell the truth because her attorneys in Idaho didn't tell the truth. She told them to say certain things, and they didn't say those. They didn't convey those. So she's going to let us know what the truth is, which, by the way, means that this could get pretty crazy. Right.

I don't know, whatever her version of the truth is, she's going to let us know. So we want to be there for it. Yeah, that's true. There was a bit of a tell, too, while she said. said that the reason she wanted to represent herself was to be an advocate for these women, there was a bit of a tell where she did say she's looking forward to facing those lied about her. Did you catch that? I mean, that was a woe. When I watched, I said, go back and I screen recorded it because it's a bit of a confession there. Like,

what she wants to do is face Kay Woodcock and others. Right. She said her quote is something the effect of I get to face the people who have lied about. Yeah. But that goes hand to hand with this idea of telling the truth. So the question, that first question about representing herself, she doesn't, she answers it later, I guess, but why doesn't she just tell us that up front? Right. Right. Like she lacks the capacity and the self-awareness to really answer that question. And it's a little maddening because. Her answer is nonsensical in a way. I mean, I guess it makes limited sense if she's going to get up there and talk about the humane conditions and these items are women. But I doubt she's going to do that.

And if she does, the judge is going to shut her down instantaneously, right? So I don't know. You know, this interview starts off kind of with this fairly direct question where I represent yourself, which she tells us later, I guess, why. But she can't really answer it. And it concerns me. I guess it doesn't concern me, but it certainly raises the question about her capacity to, you know, represent herself in a coherent, focused, direct manner.

Certainly. A lot of things concern me. Yeah. Another thing that she, oh, go ahead, go ahead. Go in order. I know you take notes. So just go in order with your notes and I'll ask my questions after. And so she also, along with that answer, she throws in that the women,

that she's going to represent. Again, I don't know how she's obviously not, she's not their attorney. So I don't know how she's going to advocate for them, but she throws in that they too are all innocent because they experienced family tragedies. So I guess she's lumping together. I don't know anything about their crimes, obviously,

but she's lumping together apparently all these violent crimes under the umbrella of family tragedy. somehow that means that they're not responsible, right? And so I thought that was interesting that she says the women are there for, quote, family tragedies, unquote. And her goal is to uplift and strengthen the women in jail, which, you know, she said earlier, she's repeated that. So, I mean, we kind of know her perspective, right?

We know from Colby and from you and I have some sources that have kind of, you know, help us understand where she's coming from a little better. And so you and I kind of, we know all this, but I mean, to kind of, again, she's, she's pinning this on Tiley. She doesn't say it in the interview because her attorney's there and shuts her down. But it's interesting to see that her perspective of the world is that there, you don't, there's no really, apparently according to her, there's really no such thing as murder. There's just family tragedy. And family tragedy means somehow that murderers are swept up in something bigger than themselves, so they're not responsible.

Right, it's not just her. It's all the other women she's in bars with. All eight of them, which they're all, she said all eight are on death row, by the way. And so that's interesting because, right, obviously you don't get on death row for, you know, stealing something from a convenience store. It's likely murder.

Right, it's likely murder. And murder, it equates the family tragedy. Right. And so, but she's, she's lumping them all. It's interesting. The most interesting thing about that to me is she's lumping all these murders under that umbrella to explain away accountability, right, to explain away responsibility that she sees, again, it's an interesting view.

She sees murder as not something an individual does to a particular person, but apparently she sees murder as something that occurs in the broader context of a family. and therefore, apparently, therefore, the individual's not responsible. The family is or family members are or whatever, right? And so that's interesting because it's so skewed. It's so divorced from reality, probably. I mean, I don't know what happened to these eight women, but my guess is that one or more of them directly murdered someone,

and I'm sure the state believes they have evidence to prove that. So whatever she sees as a family tragedy in those situations would be interesting to know. But she clearly isn't willing to take responsibility for her crimes and for what she did. And, you know, she's going to explain it away. We're calling it a family tragedy. The next thing I thought that was interesting was that the Brayana asked, sometimes she's the term snappy. Sometimes you can get, quote, snappy, unquote. Yeah, this was good.

And she says, by the way, she says, I know you can get snappy. I know you're upset. I don't think I would tell. If I'm doing an interview, I probably wouldn't tell someone. I know you get upset, right? Like, she's kind of interpreting that for her. Lori doesn't seem phased by that. You know, Brianna says, do you want to set the tone of being snappy?

And this is what, this is what Lori says. She says, I'm not a fighter, quote, I'm not a fighter. I'm a peacemaker. She did say that. Yeah. The challenge here is to fight for myself and fight for women because, quote, I'm a people placer by nature. Just, I mean, you know, the amazing thing about this is we can see her in court.

We can see her behaviors. We can see her anger. We can see her oppositionality. We can see her defiance. We can see that she's being combative. Brianna sees it. And Brianna says, hey, what's? up with that? And she's like, no, you're not seeing what I, nope, you're, you're, you got it all wrong.

I'm not a fighter. I'm a peacemaker. So whatever you see is inaccurate, whatever you, you got me all wrong because really, I'm just a people pleaser and I want to help all these women. I mean, it's, you know, I guess it's a type of gaslighting, right? It's a slight of hand. It is confusing too, because after I do, I mean, trust me, I don't think Lori is any type of peacemaker. I've heard argument after argument after argument. She creates with people and she's so manipulative. But at the same time, I did think to myself, well, you know, she is her own defense attorney. Like she should be able to fight for herself. And I guess you could say the gaslighting worked a little bit too. I thought, well, maybe I am over judging. I don't know. It's weird.

Well, I think for me, you have this discrepancy between words and action, right? And in my field, in particular, like in clinical work, when a client comes and they start screaming at me and then they say they're not angry, you know, we call that incongruence that you have this huge discrepancy between what the client is. doing and what their actions are in the real world and what they say. And I think with Lori, you get that all the time. And so you have this utter lack of self-awareness. You know, her behaviors in court are self-evident. She's angry.

She's oppositional. She's challenging the judge, right? She's combative. It's self-evident. And here she is saying, well, no, I'm really not. I'm not a fighter. I'm a peacemaker. I just want to love everyone.

She says that later. So I'll jump ahead a little. Brianna says, what do people have wrong about you? And she says, everything. She says, I love everybody and I'm here for a purpose. So this whole idea of, you know, just spreading love and being a peacemaker, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's maddening, right? She's a, she's a convicted murderer. It's maddeny.

Who clearly has a temper, who clearly is showing her anger in court, who clearly, who clearly has this oppositional side. It's actually maddening, and I thought this would be something we'd really talk about, because the way she sees herself versus, or maybe she doesn't see herself that way, I don't know, maybe she's just saying it, but the way she talks about herself

and the way she is is so different. You know, let's go before the murders. The way that she spoke to, to Charles Ballo, the way she hit his car and locked him out of the house and changed the locks. And the way she handles so many conflicts in her life with aggressive, manipulative tactics and blames people and puts Xanax and people shakes on and on and on. like let's put aside the fact that she murdered her own children for a second. This woman is not a peacemaker. No.

But does she view herself as one? Thus, she's saying it or is she just blowing smoke up? Sorry. No, I think she's, we talked about this the other day. I think she just utterly lacks self-awareness. That's what, that's why people are criminals. That's one reason because they lack. this capacity for self-reflection and introspection, and they cannot examine their beliefs and

their behaviors in their life. With Lori, it's simple. She's an ideologue. She's dogmatic about, she's rigid and dogmatic about how she sees the world. She's an ideologue. I mean, she comes back to that at the end about the, I forget the exact question, but she says basically, who are you? and she says, I'm a Christian person and I love our Savior Jesus Christ, right? That drive, we've talked about this a lot. That drives everything. That drives her mission. That drives her worldview.

That drives her rigidity, her dogmatism, right? That's part of the problem here, she can't step outside of that. She can't evaluate her behaviors outside of that framework. And so you get this utter lack of self. awareness, that she is a fighter, that she is oppositional, that she is engaging in these destructive behaviors, but she's not willing to see it because she's clinging to this view of herself as this loving Christian that just wants to help these eight women and help people and, right, and do good and make a difference in society. But that's, those are two different, those are two different

versions of Lori. That's where you get this split, right? That's, that's the whole idea between Robert Lewis Stevenson's Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. It's the same dynamic. As Jekyll becomes Hyde, he doesn't see it. And because he doesn't see it, Hyde takes over his personality. And so this dark side becomes predominant

because he can't catch it. He can't reflect and see what's going on. He can't examine his beliefs. And you have a similar dynamic here, which we talked about a little yesterday. Do you have to have self-awareness to be smart? Because I did an interview with Ashley Banfield that we shared yesterday. And Ashley, it was actually kind of funny. She kept calling Lori Valo dumb.

She just said she's so dumb. She can't see how dumb she is. You know, she's just so dumb. She doesn't realize she shouldn't be defending herself. and, you know, I giggled, but I found it interesting that during this interview, Lori actually refers to herself as smart. I'm smart. I can do this.

I'm smart. And so a lot of people's perception outside of this is that she's so dumb, she can't see what she's doing while her perception is that she is very smart. And as you pointed out, she doesn't, maybe she is smart in certain ways. She's figured out how to do her hair in prison and survive and, you know, I don't know. But she's certainly not smart in self-awareness. And you've got to have a good chunk of self-awareness to really deal with the world, don't you? Well, let's make a distinction between so there's IQ, which is, let's call it, it's, it's,

it's cognitive intelligence. So IQ, I mean, I don't have time to get into IQ. IQ's measured in different ways. I'm here for this, so explain away. IQ is measured in different ways, and there's different tests that do it. And, you know, there's no particular, there's no singular IQ test,

but there are multiple IQ tests. And they're all trying to essentially assess, not just knowledge, but nonverbal intelligence. like how we recognize patterns, how we see things, right? But it's not in any way related to this idea of self-reflection, which is more relevant to emotional intelligence. So you have, let's call it IQ or cognitive intelligence, and then you have emotional intelligence,

and then you have social intelligence, which is related to emotional intelligence, but still a little different. And then some psychologists, like Howard Gardner have argued that we have other intelligences that are unique, such as musical intelligence and mathematical intelligence, right? That there's, it's hard to really say that intelligence is one unitary concept, because it's not, it's different.

And I think there are people that might score high on IQ, but have very low emotional intelligence. and those people, you know, I'm trying to figure out, I'm trying to figure out how to present this. It's that lack of emotional intelligence that I think can be really destructive. Fair enough. That if you can't, you know, you might be smart, but if you can't relate to people or you don't have kind of this capacity to understand yourself or understand your beliefs and how they affect world then you're going to make some really bad decisions probably so is she does she have

cognitive or you know what psychologist called just overall IQ I don't know I mean it's I don't know what her IQ would be I wouldn't speculate on that's probably probably average maybe even slightly above I don't I don't know but I mean did you know that 50% of the population as below average intelligence. Right. Well, average intelligence is an average. Average would be considered to be in a range. Well, I know.

And so, but, but yeah, right. I mean, there's a, there's a bias where if you ask people, if you ask people, they've done a lot of studies on this, if you ask people if they have above average intelligence or above average talent, like, I don't know, like 75%, of people or maybe even higher sometimes say that they do. But by definition, that's impossible. Right. Because most people are average. Right. 50% of us, 50% of us have below average intelligence. There's a talent bias, right, where people

think that they're, you know, above average or smarter than they are. But again, that you can attribute that to kind of this emotional intelligence, this lack of emotional intelligence and lacking the capacity to assess reality at some level because you can't do business with the world at an emotional and social level. Gotcha. So, you know, the emotional intelligence here seems, you know, I haven't tested it.

There are ways to examine it, but it does seem like it's not particularly high. Yeah. All right, gems. Many people have been asking me for my secret formula or the perfect way to make dream. And although there's not any perfect way, I think I found the almost perfect way, if I'm going to be honest. He starts with hot water, as you can see there. And then you add a scoop of dream. Okay, a scoop and just a little bit more,

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that she asks is she kind of, this is getting more towards the end of the interview, but she asks, why are we here? In other words, she says, you had everything going for you. You know, you had this great life. You were married to this good guy. You had a big house. You had money, right? Which, by the way, I guess you could question whether all those things mean that someone

has a good life. But let's put that aside. She says, you had a. enviable life. So why are we here? And she's, you know, I thought that was interesting because you and I talk a lot about how I don't ask people why they did something because they don't know most of the time. So of the criminals I've assessed, I'd say 95%.

So every forensic evaluation I do at the end, and usually at the end of hours and hours of interviews and testing, I always ask a criminal, why do you think, think you did this? Why did you commit this murder? Why did you rape this child, right? Or whatever it is. Because for me, I don't expect an answer to that. It's diagnostic in terms of, does the person have some capacity for self-reflection? Like, have they thought about this? Do they have some capacity for mentalization or self-reflection or introspection? And if they do, then they're going to be a better candidate for therapy in the future. And if they don't,

they may, they might be a candidate for therapy, but they may lacking this capacity. They may struggle more to benefit from therapy. So I always ask that. And about 95% of the time, the answer is I have no idea. I don't know why I did it.

So fascinating. Yeah. Or they might say, you know, in the case of the sex crime, they might say, well, because you know, I felt sexual impulses towards the victim, right? But that's not really what I'm asking. I mean, that's a given. Or they might say, well, I had an opportunity to, you know, I had an opportunity to

write this person or whatever. Right. Like they're not, they're not really, they're not assessing motive. They're assessing something else, something simpler than motive. So, again, a lack of self-awareness. Right. And so Lori's answer to that, by the way, is she is the family. tragedy thing that she, she says, quote, it was a domino effect of tragedies.

Okay. I mean, yeah. Implying self-defense, right? Well, implying that, implying that this kind of fatalistic, kind of this deterministic view where all these dominoes started falling and she couldn't control them so she wasn't responsible. But not assessing her motive at all or her involvement. or why she might be involved, right?

And so, I mean, I think it's interesting. It's always interesting to me when people ask the why question because in my field, it's kind of a no-no, you know, maybe that's not the right term. When I work with students, I, you know, there's this, I think they kind of feel compelled to ask why because they make this, there's assumption that somehow our clients are going to know why. If they knew why, they wouldn't be sitting in front of us, at least in therapy. and forensic stuff,

same thing. If they knew why there's less likelihood they would have committed a crime. So, right? Because if you know why, then you can work on it. You can figure it out. You may need help from someone else because an outside party can see things that you can

and they can give you feedback that you can't see on your own. So they may need therapy anyway, but it helps, right? if somebody is reflective enough to understand some of their motives, then they can at least work on those areas on their own. If they have no clue of why or what their motives might be or how they could relate to why they're sitting in front of a therapist in therapy, then it's more difficult. Yeah.

So I thought it was interesting that Brianna asked her that, because her answer essentially, I don't know. Like she gave an answer that was family series of dominoes, the domino effect of tragedy. So the answer to why are you here is, I don't know, basically. By the way, I met Brianna. By the way, I met her at the trial. She gave no hint that she was about to do this interview. But she said she'd be covering the trial and we were excited to meet her.

I think she did a good job. I think she was trying to ask a lot of questions in a very short time frame. So I think in that sense, when you're asking tough questions in 30 minutes, I presume she had like 30 minutes to do this, it seemed. When you're trying to pack in so much stuff in such a quick time frame, you know, I think you're probably going to get shorter answers. Yeah. But, I mean, you know, she asked some tough questions.

it was interesting. One of the questions she asked is do you still believe in light and dark and zombies? And of course, Lori's attorney intervened and wouldn't let her answer that. So she came back with,

you know, what's your relationship like with Chad? She said, you know, they're still married. They still carry on their marriage, I guess, even though I don't believe they can talk to each other.

I think they have a third party helping them talk, if you ask me. Probably. What do people get wrong about you? Brianna asked. She said everything. I just mentioned this earlier.

I love everybody. I'm here for a purpose. Her purpose, at least in jail, is to uphold enough up with women in jail. Which, by the way, I can see her doing. You know, she's quite energetic, right? I could see her being really enthusiastic and dancing and, right, doing whatever, you know, just helping people.

Yeah, hosting dance classes or prayer circles or, yeah. She mentions, so again, she didn't answer the question earlier about why represent yourself, but she mentions I'm here to, so she, Brianna asked her if she's going to testify and she says she doesn't know. And does she want to be acquitted? She asks if she, is her goal acquittal? And she says, no, I'm there. I don't, she can't really.

control that, she's there, quote, I'm there to tell the truth. I thought that was really interesting because, you know, I can't wait to see what her version of the truth is. I mean, I guess we sort of know. I think we have a pretty good idea of what her version of the truth is, but to actually see her in court, like, you know, talking about her version of the truth, I think that's going to be really fascinating. I agree. I know. And her, it's true. doesn't really want her to talk about it in these interviews. Yeah.

Well, I'm not, yeah, we'll see. Well, she if she does. I assume she will because she made it clear she's, she made it clear that her attorneys in Idaho would not let her say. She told, she said in this interview, her attorneys, she would ask her attorneys to say things and she said, quote, my attorneys did not say them. That was smart of them.

That was smart of them. Right. And you and I, like to not kind of like to not blame. Tyley, for example, probably a smart move. Probably not going to be a crowd pleaser with the jury. By the way, I do have to get you to look up sometimes. Look at the camera. Look at the camera.

Oh, there you are. See everyone? He does look. Okay. Well, yeah, I'm looking at my notes. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I'm not super well trained.

And you have this new camera and you put it up higher. So I feel like when I was looking at my computer camera, I could do that easier than looking up to this one. Yeah, we're practicing. But there you go. Let's get into the most. So the best part of this was at the end. Let's get into the most fascinating part of this interview. It's the last question.

She said, Brianna asked her, are you prepared for life behind bars? And Lori says, quote, my life is mostly over because I'm 51 years old. And then she goes on to explain that even if her life is over, that's okay because she has this mission behind bars of, you know, helping these women that are being wrongfully, you know, imprisoned. Apparently they're innocent according to her. She says she had a wonderful life. and she sees her current situation as a calling and a mission. So let's talk about why this is interesting. I mean, first of all, saying her life is over at 51 is it feels like a bit of rationalization in the sense that, you know, what are her choices?

Right? She's been convicted to life in prison multiple times over. she really doesn't have a choice. Like, I mean, maybe it's a, I don't know, it's a little bit of a defensive response, I think, in the sense that she's being asked a question that, you know, is a tough question to answer and she doesn't really have a good answer for it.

So I think she comes up with this rationalization that her life is over. I know. A 51 years old. Right, at 51 years old. Everyone out there is just like, Ouch! I mean, it's not,

I don't know, you know, she makes it seem like, you know, that she says she's a grandmother and her mother and she makes it sound like she doesn't have a choice, right? But I mean, but it has to do with her age. And I mean, but what she doesn't acknowledge is her life is over because she murdered a bunch of people.

Right? Like that's, again, there's this utter lack of self-awareness. Like, it's not her age. It's not because of her age that her life is over. It's because she murdered people and she's going to spend the rest of her life in prison. Right. Right. And like, so it's a peculiar answer just to say, well, you know, it's a very defensive kind of rationalization about my life is over because of my age. The other thing it shows, I think, that's really fascinating about Lori is, and we know this, but she's making it explicit here, is this idea that she values youth in appearance and kind of this youthful vitality, right, in this youthful presentation of the world. We know this from the way she, you know, perhaps or tries to present herself every day in court, that she's very concerned about appearances,

and not so much concerned about, you know, with age, you might lose some of that usefulness, youthfulness, but you gain wisdom and you gain knowledge, right? And you presumably, whatever wisdom people gain with age, that makes a bigger, in theory, that should make a bigger contribution to communities and society, or it can, I guess, if people were wanting to share that wisdom.

And so I think the most interesting part of this answer to me is just this contrast between what she values, which what she values is this youthful innocence and vitality, apparently maybe not innocence, but certainly like this emphasis on being young versus the wisdom of being older and the importance of knowledge. Like, again, she's showing us who she is here because the things that a lot of people over 50 value, she clearly doesn't.

And not only does she not value them, but she doesn't care. Right. So I agree. And so I thought that answer was really fascinating in so many ways, you know, as someone who I'll use the term myself, as someone who's a person who's a person. bit of a late bloomer myself like i you know when she said that i'm like wow that's crazy um but uh i i have to say this so um the other thing i thought about so when she said that um i happen to be watching this show at the moment that's on national geographic and showing on Disney, I think, because Disney now owns National Geographic.

And there's the show by David Blaine, who he talks about on the show that he, too, is 51 years old. And David Blaine, so this show is called Do Not Attempt. And for those who don't know, David Blaine, David Blaine is a magician who also engages in these feats. endurance that can be, I think, fairly remarkable. I haven't really followed him too closely. He did some major endurance stunts in, I believe, in New York, and he's done them all over the world. But this is a fascinating show because he's traveling around the world, really looking

to push himself at the age of 51. I mean, a lot of this was filmed when he was 50, in fairness, so he wasn't quite 50. but he is now. And I thought, you know, I thought about this contrast, right, about the 51-year-old David Blaine, who in this show, I don't want to give too much away here

if people want to watch it, but in the show, he lives in Vegas, by the way, too. So I wouldn't mind reaching out to him and see if he would be interested in doing an interview. I'd love to talk to this guy. He's fascinating. You're making plan.

But he is, is he's he kisses a king cobra on the head which by the way like a king cobra is probably one of the most deadly creatures on the planet if that king cobra turns in a split second and bites him he's almost certainly dead okay he swims he goes through the arctic circle in the middle of the winter and he finds these people that uh that have the fascination with the cold and endurance. And they've set these records for swimming underwater and freezing temperatures, like, you know, freezing or sub-freezing temperatures.

So he goes under this ice and he swims over 100 feet. And then he has to break through the ice. And I don't know what the exact temperature of the water. It's got to be around like 32 degrees Fahrenheit, something like that. I mean, I can't even imagine it. But my point is you have this guy, David Blaine, who's the same age, who's this master magician and endurance artist. I think he would consider himself an artist.

And he's pushing the envelope like he never has before in his life at 51 years old. Right. He's trying. He's open-minded. He's creative, right? He's got this cognitive flexibility. He's at this point in his life, he doesn't have to do anything else. but he does it because it's about mastery and self-mastery

and showing himself what he's capable of and expanding who he is, right? He's like he's doing all the things that Lori Debeau would never imagine. I mean, she can't. Obviously, she's a convicted murderer, but the point is by contrast, I think, you know, this idea that your life somehow is over at 51 is absurd. I mean, it might be over if you go murder people, so don't murder people.

You know, if I'm presumed, if David Blaine murdered someone, yeah, he wouldn't be doing the show. But I point that out because there's something inspirational. Like, I don't, I don't. Don't go kissing king cobras as a midlife crisis, please. Yeah, well, that's why it's called Do Not Again. He lights himself on fire and jumps off this, gosh, no, I don't even know how high it is. you know, 150 foot jump off a bridge

on fire. The stuff he's doing, it's all based by the way, on these performance artists that he encounters all over the world. They're doing these really unique he calls the magic in some cases, but they're engaging these really unique activities, feats, physical feats

of endurance or pain, whatever. I mean, there's different things, but it's really I don't know. It's, it's, It's really mesmerizing. I mean, sometimes it's hard to watch because he's really, in some of these instances, he's really pushing the envelope in terms of life and death. And I think he would acknowledge that.

But I bring it up because, you know, when she said that, I've been watching the show. And I know that he mentions that's how old he is. And it's such a contrast. and although not directly related to Lori Daybell, I think, you know, sometimes we don't talk enough about human potential and what people are capable of and kind of the other side of that. And maybe we should, you know, and I think one thing that David Blaine brings home to me, at least, is, and he talks about this, that, you know, he challenges death all the time,

is just the brevity of life. And, you know, what is it we need to do to get the most out of our lives? What are the risks we should take? For me, you know, when I watch this show, I think, well, you know, my risks aren't physical. I'm not like kissing King Cobras or, you know, lighting myself on fire. That's not how I'm going to challenge it, right? That's not how I'm going to challenge myself. I think the way I challenge myself is by kind of going into the criminal model.

and touching these areas of complete darkness and complete. Some people might say evil, but I don't want to use that term, but, you know, kind of approaching and touching the darkness of human beings and being capable of not only understanding it, but learning from it and growing from it and not letting that darkness envelope my life or take over my life, right? There's that risk. There's always that risk.

So it's a different risk than David Blaine, it's encountering the worst in human beings, this utter, you know, cruelty and insubility and darkness, and somehow finding a way to engage with it, both personally and professionally, in a way that's healthy and can help me grow. And that's always been my challenge over the years. And so I think, you know, I look at David Blaine, and it causes me to reflect on my life and kind of what I do in my mission. And I think in a peculiar way, I feel some solidarity or kinship with David Blaine,

not in the sense that I'm going to swim. I'm going to jump in Arctic water and swim 100 feet under ice because I'm not going to do that. I probably have a heart attack the minute I got in the water. So yeah, I'm not going to do that. But in a different way, like I'm doing something similar, I think. You know, I don't want to, and I don't want to people to say, I'm not comparing myself to David Blaine. I'm just saying that watching the show really, for me,

caused a certain amount of self-reflection. And I want to give the message that it doesn't have to do with age. Like, no matter how old we are, we can reinvent ourselves, we can take risk. There's so much more that we can do with our lives, even if it's, in my case, like, reaching through this darkness and trying to find a way through it. And now look up and look at the camera when you say that.

No, the camera. You don't look at the camera. Oh, the camera. I'm so used to. You've been looking at the wrong camera the whole time. I keep looking at the camera. I'm so used to looking at the laptop camera. I know.

I'm watching you the whole time. And I keep thinking, just going to remember. So then you look at the camera. Can we lower the camera? Maybe we need to lower it. Yeah, we'll lower it. We thought you wanted it higher.

we'll lower it. Anyway, so that's, that's, I know I was on a little soapboxer for a minute, but, but I want to end with that because, I love that. Because David, this David Blaine show is, to me, it's, it's been inspirational and it's kind of helped me reflect on my mission and what I do. And none of that has to do with age. So no matter how old you are, you know, I encourage it no matter what, no matter what Lori Daybelt tells you, your life is not over when you turn 50. And just remember that, you know, the other thing I get out of this, and this is the message I tell myself time and time of game again.

but it's just to remember the brevity of life and how important each moment is and to really cherish and value every moment and everyone that's in front of us and to take some risks as you need to to kind of push yourself as necessary. Thank you. I love that, babe. I appreciate it. Yeah, just don't in our midlife crisis. No cults. No portals. No portals, no king cobras. Cobra's, yeah.

No, no Arctic. No Arctic swimming. But let's make it meaningful. And as you say, realize the vast human potential that is and can be even, no matter if you're a late bloomer or not. So thank you. Yeah. And I think it's easy for what I do, you know, working with criminals all the time,

it's easy to lose sight of human potential because I don't see that. I see the opposite. I see humans at their work. And actually, it's the opposite, right? It's the unrealized potential of these people that I see that they could have realized more of that potential, but they didn't. And they went down a different path. So it's been really interesting to kind of encounter. I don't even remember.

I think I don't remember how I found this David Blaine show. Anyway, I will talk to you. later and thanks everyone for joining us on this reaction to this reflection to Lori Daybell's interview. Yes. Right. We'll see everyone. Okay. Bye.

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