Hidden True Crime - PSYCHOLOGIST REACTS: Lori Vallow Daybell Guilty AGAIN!

Episode Date: June 13, 2025

The jury has spoken—again. Lori Daybell has been found guilty in Arizona for conspiring to murder Brandon Boudreaux. In this post-verdict episode, we break down the courtroom moments you didn’t see and bring in a criminal psychologist to unpack Lori’s behavior, mindset, and what this latest conviction reveals about the so-called Doomsday Mom. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's John and Lauren. And we finally have Dr. John here. everybody's been asking for you, babe. And I'm like, what am I? Choped liver. No, just kidding. No, we play two very different roles on our channel. If you're new here, we're hidden to crime, a criminal psychologist, him.

And I am a journalist in a former broadcast reporter. And Lori Valo, you know, Lori Ballot Debel just had another guilty verdict. her next guilty verdict, her third guilty verdict. She's now a convicted murderer four times and now conspiracy of attempted murder. She'll be sentenced July 25th, and I will be there. John, you've been watching from the background. The cheap seats.

The cheap seats. You know, I will give this to Arizona. They made those courtrooms very comfortable. I was okay, more okay attending this. trial than any other because the seats were cushioned. It was a little cold, but you could put a sweatshirt on and it's so hot outside, you know, don't mind. So cheap seats, yeah, you were in the cheap seats, in other words. How are you doing? What have you thought about everything so far? As you point out on a lot of your lives, I mean, it's Lori, so it's always unpredictable

and sometimes, I guess, in a peculiar way, entertaining. But, I mean, to me, this is like revisiting her greatest hits over and over, right? Like, it's kind of the same thing. You just put them on repeat. So, you know, she keeps going back to this idea of all this is a family tragedy, right? Like, that's one of her greatest hits. This is a family tragedy. Nobody committed any more.

This was all accidental, right? Like that motif. Yeah. And she repeated that in closing arguments. Like, you know, it's becoming pretty predictable. Or it was, I guess. This is the end of, I guess this is the end of the hit parade. Right.

Let's hold. Let's hope. It can't be tried again, right? As far as I know. She can't be tried again. She stipulated her aggravating factor. She didn't want the jury to decide. And I don't think she wants to be there during the sentencing either.

And she wants to get back. Did you hear that? She really wants to get back to Idaho as soon as possible. She wanted ascendencing in less than 30 days and to be transported as quickly as she could back to the gem state, which is Idaho, the gem state. And so she'll be ironic. What kind of cushy prison situation does she have an Idaho? Is that what she's looking forward to? I don't know.

Do they give her a special mattress up in the Department of Corrections? Go ahead. Yeah, I don't know. It's interesting. I mean, Arizona, I've done a little work in Arizona, and there are certain detention centers in the Phoenix area, which are not known to be particularly comfortable. So maybe that's part of the issue. But I will say this, that by the way, I don't know if this is still going on, but there was a, I want to say, sheriff in the Phoenix area who made sex offenders sleep

in tents outside. So they weren't even in facilities. They were like in like a huge. I don't know if they did that during the summer, by the way, but Arizona is not kind to sex offenders. I mean, I guess a lot of states are. But they made at least male sex offenders. offenders. I don't know about females, but they made them stay outside in these tents. And I think

there was even a time, I don't know if this is still happening, where they had to wear like pink. So you knew they were separated from the population. I don't know. Strange. I think, you know, Chad's in Idaho, but I think, you know, if Phoenix is the hostel, the host, like, what I mean is, like, you stay in a hostel. Idaho must be the motel six. You know, somebody else suggested portals work better there. someone else is making a good point. It's closer to Chad. Maybe they can more easily communicate. We've seen where she lives in Idaho. We've seen a photo of that and we've seen a sample of where she lives in Arizona right now. But yeah, she really wants to get back to Idaho. It makes sense if, I mean, if you have certain inmates that are detained outside, I assume.

they have large fences surrounding them. I don't know. I haven't actually seen it. I've seen pictures of some of the detention centers in Phoenix when they were holding some of the prisoners in these, like, camps. But yeah, it would make sense. If you're willing to do that, then yeah, you're probably in general, you're not going to provide a pleasant experience.

You're probably not going to provide a spa experience to the inmates. You know, so what did you think about everything? What did you think about closing arguments? We've been waiting to hear from you, your point of view as a psychologist. And, you know, about her attempted refusal or attempted her attempts to recuse the judge. Let's start with her closing arguments yesterday. Or did you want to start with her verdict? Either or.

Yeah, let's start with the closing arguments. I mean, the verdict was, I think, pretty on event. full. We could see the back of her head. We could see her hair, but it was really hard to see any facial expressions, at least for me. I mean, you were in the courtroom. Did you pick up any? No, we couldn't see any, but we know from the last trial that what she does is actually show zero emotion. She'll show emotion when she's, you know, doing her closing arguments about herself. She'll, you know, have these crocodile tears. But when it comes to her being sentenced, she doesn't flinch. And, The jurors all told us just a few weeks ago when the same thing happened with a guilty verdict. She doesn't show any emotion whatsoever, but she was very angry and she wasn't expecting a guilty verdict last time because she told Brianna that. But no, that's like her MO is to not do that. But she was smiling as she left.

I don't know if you caught that. But she made a lot of people upset. As she walked out of the courtroom, she was smiling. Yeah. I mean, I didn't really catch that towards the. end when they were escorting her completely out of the courtroom. Yeah, I kind of missed that, but that is interesting. Yeah, the lack of emotion when they read the verdict is that it is interesting because she's during both trials in Arizona, she's become emotional during closing

opening and closing statements both, right? I mean, even Trina Kay pointed out, she took kind of a a jab at her with a comment about tears, right? She said, you can, so I don't know exactly. I don't have the line, but she basically said, you can cry all your want, but it doesn't change the facts. I thought it was, I thought that was kind of interesting. I think, you know, they're all kind of at the end of their rope with her. And as we talked about endlessly, like, she's doing life no matter what.

So why are, you know, I'm sure the judge is just scratching his head. why are we wasting our time with this, right? I mean, there's the issue of justice for Brandon. Right, that's why. It's not a waste of time because of justice. But why is she wasting her time? Why doesn't she say she's guilty? Yeah, why doesn't she take a deal?

Yeah, why is she wasting everyone's time by dragging everyone through this? I think the closing statements were interesting. You know, she made a point of stressing the fact that she didn't feel any anger or defensiveness, even though she was, quote, under scrutiny and attack. She was under scrutiny and attack, and she wasn't becoming angry or defensive. You know, it's kind of an interesting thing to say, like telling the jury basically, look, I semi kept my composure, so go easy on me. Like, what, I don't, you know, just because I'm not like an angry,

ranting defendant, that somehow that has anything to do with, like, the evidence or guilt or right or innocence. since I, it was, I don't know why she would bring that up. For me, she's kind of like, she's got, it's a little bit of a tell. She's saying, well, what I really feel her is anger and defensiveness, but I'm not showing you. Right. Right. Right. That I've been under attack.

I've been under scrutiny. I've been mistreated. Right. She, she argued, as you pointed out in one of her motions, that the judge terrified her. So I kind of took that to mean the exact opposite that, you know, because why bring it up? I'm not going to close with, hey, you know what, give me some bonus points for not being angry or defensive. That was pretty good, right?

Like, you guys got to find me not guilty because I wasn't just up here, you know, raging at the judge all the time. So, you know, give me some bonus point. Like, I don't, why bring it up? It's irrelevant. I think the reason she brings it up is because that's exactly what she's feeling. Feeling what? Anger and defensive.

Like, she's what she's always feeling, right? So she's kind of telling us what she's feeling, I think. When she's blaming the judge, she also blamed the judge for explosive behavior when he said you need to leave the courtroom, right? I mean, what were your thoughts on that? Is that projection as well? Because we saw the exchange and she was talking back to the judge and raising her voice. Right.

It wasn't a good look. Is that projection too? Yeah, a lot of it's projection. And on that issue, by the way, again, getting back to like her greatest tits, she keeps coming back to this idea of repeatedly. She's done it in every trial. She keeps coming back to this idea if you're not there and you didn't see it, then you can't comment on it, right?

Like you can't, like, there's this element to Lori Valo Debo that is like so concrete and so literal about how she sees and thinks about the world, how she perceives the world. You know, the first time she did this, it kind of scratched my head and I thought, maybe this is just an argument to get people thinking or to challenge people's thoughts on this issue. But like now I genuinely think that she believes,

and I think this is one of the reasons she committed these horrendous acts, by the way, is because she really believes that because she wasn't there, because she wasn't physically, literally at the crime scene that she didn't commit a crime. In other words, she can't, she doesn't have the capacity to infer or abstract that you don't have to be at the crime scene to be involved in the crime. Because she comes back to this all the time, she says, they weren't there. So you can't say what happened.

I mean, this is a theme she's come back to all the time. Yeah. Obviously, what she doesn't understand is our judicial system is, largely founded on the idea of induction and deduction and inference. And like, right? She doesn't understand that like, just because you're not literally present at the crime scene doesn't mean you can't participate in it and plan it and advocate for it. It's mind-boggling. Like, her level of concrete thought. Before I switched to wealth front, my APY was probably zero point one. Like, it was a joke. I was literally getting pennies.

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Direct deposit $1,000 a month and fund an investing account for a 0.25% increase. Cash account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC member FINRA SIPC, not a bank. Instant withdrawal subject to conditions, fees and eligibility requirements may apply to certain checking features of the cash account. By the way, on that issue, there's a famous child psychologist,

Pige, who talked about this. And he called this, I think it was the concrete operational stage where, you know, you're just, you can't, you're mired in this view of the world that is quite literal. Black and white. Yeah, literal. Right. And from a criminal psychology standpoint, the problem with that is you're going to be more inclined to commit this type of an act, a murderous act, if you think that way, right?

Like she's thinking, well, you know, Chad and I aren't going to actually do the murder. So, you know, so we won't get charged and convicted, right? Like, you know, we may plan them and we may have this entire, you know, group that's talking about this and benefiting from it and planning it. But, but hey, they can't get us because Alex is going to do the killing, right? Like it's, it's mind-boggling. So the basic idea that, that evidence has some inferential value or that evidence kind of drives the judicial process, she doesn't see any of that as relevant. Right. She doesn't think evidence matters.

What matters is, were you there? And if you were there, then you know. So like to her, I'm going to use a fancy philosophical term here. This is like an epistemological issue, epistemology and philosophy. is like the theory of knowledge or how we know things. This is an epistemological issue because what she's saying is you can't possibly know the world. You can't have any knowledge of anything unless you see it or hear it. Those are terms she used, by the way.

She said, she told the jury, there's no evidence of the conspiracy because the state did not show you any evidence. She told the jury, quote, you did not see or hear of any agreement. Right. Think about that language. They didn't see or hear. Again, like this idea, like, if you're not literally there, then you can't possibly have knowledge. It's crazy, right? That's why we send out forensic teams to crime scenes to gather evidence, which is a type of knowledge that we put together by making inferences, right? Infurances about crimes that were committed, even though we didn't see them. But for her, you know, You know, if you don't see it, it doesn't happen. If you didn't hear it or see it, it doesn't exist. People have pointed this out repeatedly over the years, but it's like, can we send her to like some critical thinking class or something? I mean, it's too late now.

But why didn't we like send her to like, I don't know, even like a basic English class? Because fiction is sick, is not real, right? You're not there. I can read a book of fiction and, like, these characters are made up. But that doesn't mean they can't influence my life, right? Or they can't get me to think about the world or I can't make inferences about, you know, people I know based on characters and books.

But to her, I don't know. I mean, and I don't know if she reads fiction, but certainly like you've talked about this a lot, like this idea of visions of glory, this book that she takes to be quite literally true. Very literal. Yes. You know, that's how you can have a book like Visions of Glory that has such a tremendous impact on someone like Lori, because she, even though it's clearly like kind of science fiction and fantasy, right to some degree or whatever, imaginary, she doesn't take it that way. If we're talking about knowledge, like epistemology, she's like negating what counts as knowledge unless like you can touch it and feel it and see it. it. And I really think, when you think about it, I really think that plays a role in this crime and these crimes because, and Chad, too, by the way. Because I think they have this belief that if Alex is down in Arizona trying to shoot Brandon and they're not there and they didn't experience it or see it and feel it and hear it or whatever, then somehow they didn't participate in the crime. And they weren't, right? They weren't responsible for murder.

because they weren't there. And she keeps reiterating this point over and over. You know, and by the way, I think this is a quality I've seen a lot in criminals that they don't abstract. That they don't. There's something that psychologists call mentalization. Mentalization or metacognition, we sometimes call it. It's this capacity to reflect, like to stand back and to see, you know, to stand outside of yourself. So if you think about the term metacognition, it's thinking about thinking.

Right. So you're not just responding to the world. You're not just acting in the world. You're stepping back and observing your actions and you're thinking about your decisions and how you got there. Right. And a lot of criminals lack this quality. They lack mentalization. They lack metacognition.

They just, they're very impulsive. They see the world literally. if somebody pushes them, they push back. They don't think about the consequences. They just react to the world. They see the world as a very literal, sometimes frightening place. And I think that's the case with both Chad and Lori

is that they, not only do they lack this capacity for mentalization, but they just see the world as this very, you know, concrete place that only exists if you're there. So I guess, you know, all the, billions of people in the world that are living their lives right now, either they don't exist or what they're experiencing isn't real, because Lori's not there to see it with them, apparently.

I don't know. A couple of questions when it comes to that. I mean, because you nailed it, but I still have an odd question. She does believe 100% that she's seen Jesus Christ. Like, she is certain of it, and she is certain of her belief system that we all know, or at least I think we, I hope we all know isn't true, that this belief system of hers is wild,

but she's determined to say it's literal, even though she hasn't seen it. And I don't believe she's seen Jesus Christ, but she's pretty confident she has. She'll stand by that to anyone and that Jesus Christ is her bestie, you know, saying that she's a goddess. So how does this,

literal black and white worldview equate into this sort of delusional fantasy that she also holds, which isn't real. Well, I think one of the problems she has is distinguishing fantasy from reality. But that doesn't mean that in her world, she doesn't see those things as being real. In fact, I think she's very confused about those things. You know, we talked about her obsessiveness with the Twilight books. Right. And again, it's peculiar, right?

Because you and I know that those books are fiction, but somehow Lurie doesn't. And again, like, it's peculiar because she can't live that world. She can't actually be there. She can't hang out with vampires and werewolves. But somehow, I don't think so. You know, but in her fantasy world, I mean, that's the other thing. She's very fantasy prone. In her fantasy world, somehow the things that she thinks are.

valuable, in some sense, they become literally real. She breathes life into imaginary things, and then they become real to her. Yeah. In other words, her black and white view makes these fantasy things real, because she loves it so much, because she loves the book, Visions of glory so much. And because the book, Visions of Glory has moved her, it therefore becomes real. It can't just be a metaphor that moved her. It has to be real. And if she reads this book called A Second Comforter, which teaches its readers how to have their own vision of Jesus Christ. It's by Denver Snuffer, and it's a book she loved and a book she gifted some of her friends. That's why I know this.

So if you read The Second Comforter and it says, here's how you can have your own vision of Jesus Christ, go for it. And it moves her emotionally. She's going to then absolutely have had her own vision of Jesus Christ because she's so black and white. If something is emotional to her, it's real. Is that it? Yeah, exactly. It still has this literal aspect. Okay.

It's kind of dangerous when you mix a black and white personality like that with extreme religion. That's why you've been attending all these trials. Yeah. That's why she's a multibly convicted murderer because, yeah, exactly. Like these are some of the elements. I mean, of course, there's many people that are literal and fantasy prone and they blur those distinctions, but they don't murder. So it is still unusual.

But I think it's part of the process. that gets her to commit all these murders is that she this literal quality. So they answer her question, yeah, I do think she believes that she's met Jesus and talk to Jesus and spend time with Jesus. And I mean, she has to think that because she's so literal. Like, you know, how that works in practice. Like, I don't, is it a delusion? You know, does she have like, I don't know, does she have like a, um, what's the company that does like the life size cutouts of stuff?

I can't think of it. Yeah, well, just cardboard cutouts. I'm sure a lot of companies do them. Yeah, there's a company, though, that I forget, like I call, let's say like a bobblehead or something. I mean, I don't want to, I don't, I think it would be a little blasphemous for me to, like, say that she has a cutout of like Jesus in her room. But I don't know.

She was married to the angel Maronai or in the Book of Mormon. So yeah. Cut out of Maroni. Yeah. She's got a bobblehead of Maronai and she thinks it's literal. You know, it's actually true, right? So, yeah, I mean, again, what that looks like in practice, I don't know. I mean, this is where you get into like delusional stuff.

Does she really think she spent time with Jesus? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. At my bank, I was literally getting pennies using wallfront. Chiching, there's this much that I'm getting an interest and I didn't have to do anything. Clients like Angela earn up to 4.2%. and APY on their cash with the Wealthfront cash account. Get started at Wealthfront.com. Client was paid $1,000 for their testimonial, creating a conflict of interest. Outcomes vary.

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Just head to mood.com. That's M-O-O-O-D.com to get started. Well, then, okay, so one other question, and that does make sense to me. Yeah, it is. You're painting a picture of a potentially dangerous criminal when you throw all these factors together, which is why I guess you assess criminals

to figure out what's going on and how they view the world. Someone pointed out there, too, that it was almost like at the end she wanted the jury to even know more, like as in the more they knew that they'd see she was innocent, which is bizarre because we're thinking the more they know, you know, the more biased they become.

What about the fact that she will always say to people that she didn't see her children pass away? She saw them after, but then she'll also tell us, well, you were there, you don't know. And I want to say, well, you weren't either. Why do you know? and we don't. She would say that to Colby

on the jailhouse goal, she said that to Colby, in his most recent interview with her, that you can go watch on Colby's channel, Colby Jerry Ryan. But like, I mean, I guess is that just sort of like a loss of insight too?

Like you weren't there either and you, I don't know. She wasn't there when Tammy Daybell died. Well, I guess that's a different thing. But she claimed she knows what happened when her children died and she wasn't there from the same breath.

She claims. I mean, yeah. I mean, I wouldn't expect complete consistency in terms of her beliefs, right? And worldview, I mean, there's always going to be hypocrisy around someone like this as views of the world because you can't possibly keep them all consistent. Yeah. It's hard enough for somebody who has, you know, let's say a normal orientation to the world

and kind of a normal belief system, whatever that means, to kind of keep all their values and beliefs consistent. But so for somebody like Lori, it's got to be really, really challenging. So yeah, of course there's going to be hypocrisy because she can't, I'm sure she's going to contradict yourself all the time. With this linear thinking that we're discussing, be a coping mechanism learned from childhood to not be emotionally hurt?

So I think the best evidence on this issue would be that some of it is nature and some of its nurture, you know, in the sense that there are hardwired elements in our brains in terms of our capacities for language and skills and music. And there's certain things that certain brains do better than other brains. But, you know, so let's say someone has this talent for music, right? The other side of that is that that talent has to be nurtured.

So you could have somebody that's like a total musical prodigy, but if you don't nurture that and if you don't somehow develop that, you'll never see that. I think there are genetic components to certain things, like intelligence maybe, you know, certain parts of intelligence, like spatial, you know, verbal skills versus nonverbal skills, like ability to spatial reasoning, you know, abstractions, that kind of thing.

So, but the question is, you know, part of the question is, do you grow up in a family that encourages those parts of your development? Do you grow up in a family that has you reading a lot, for example? Do you go up in a family that's using critical thinking? Do you grow up right? I mean, and you can, you can, you can, develop those skills later, even if your family doesn't really encourage that stuff, or maybe they don't stress those qualities, you can still develop those.

But it's a lot easier to do it if you're encouraged to do it early on. Yeah. A lot of people are asking about narcissistic collapse these days, I think it was a term that was used. I think you and I know it as fragmenting or that's how I mean, you're a psychologist, so you know it if you know it, as you know it. But I know it is like fragmenting, you know, when they're, the narcissist is so emotionally wounded. People have suggested a narcissistic collapse and that's become sort of a word at this trial that everybody's wondering about.

So somebody asked if you could explain what that is or if you think any of that's going on. I think it's a buzzword. I don't think it's the actual psychological term. It's not like a diagnosis. I think psychologists are more apt to use a term like narcissistic insult. or narcissistic injury, which is pretty much what it suggests the term, which is that, you know, you're challenged or threatened in some way. Your ego is challenged. Your identity is challenged in some way. And so when you have that injury, oftentimes a narcissistic

injury or insult, oftentimes there's some chance of reacting or acting out on that injury. A lot of times narcissistic injuries will cause shame. They'll cause deep shame. And in a sense of inadequacy, and people don't like shame. People don't like, people don't like to feel weak and inadequate. When they do, a lot of times they'll act out, and they'll do things that are not healthy. And they do that to repair those injuries. So when you have those injuries and you're feeling vulnerable, you know, typically the response is to try to feel better, to try to take some action.

And sometimes that action might include violence. that violence would be a really unhealthy way to repair a narcissistic insult. Yes. So to answer your question, I think narcissistic collapse, maybe that sounds more extreme. I mean, it's not something I'm super familiar with. I'd have to maybe, I don't know, I'd have to kind of look at the research and see if people are talking about that more in the journals. I haven't seen it a lot so far, but my guess is there's a lot of overlap between that idea

and narcissistic insults or injuries. And so there's probably, they're probably similar ideas. It sounds like collapse is more, maybe collapses, I don't know, complete like immersion in shame or something. I don't know what that would mean,

but like the loss of one's total identity, like some type of annihilation, I don't know. What do you think about her multiple attempts to recuse the judge. There were four times. This was not a long trial. And she tried to accuse him, recuse him, accuse him and recuse him four times. The first one was in a pretrial hearing and then three times during the trial. And then it went to a Judge Green and then she attempted to recuse Judge Green

after Judge Green denied. And then it went to another judge that had to then assess whether Judge Green should be recused and this judge denied so if you count those two are talking five times five attempts to recuse get rid of judges um what was that about well she's not winning she's not winning she's not getting her way right it's like a child she's she's lashing out i mean again this this goes back to narcissistic injury she's not getting her way so this is this is a pure power play She's challenging the judge. She's challenging the judicial system. She's challenging the process.

You have to think of it in terms of what are her options, right? Like she's a multibly convicted murderer. She's in jail. She's undergoing this trial. Like, you know, what choice, if she's going to get in a power struggle or, you know, engage in this power play with the courts, how is she going to do it? That's the question, right? And so, I mean, one way she did it was to feign this illness or this virus, right? She, well, I guess some people might argue with me on that, but it seems like she definitely was malingering or faking her illness.

And by the way, like, obviously, I think she's going to use that card on appeal. You know, I don't know. She's going to have more appeals going than any other, any other inmate in the criminal. justice system right now. And speaking of which, by the way, I am here to tell you that I know you and Grayson talked about, you were speculating about, you know, because of HIPAA, they can't release what her medical issues were, right? And one of our, I noticed one of our listeners said that she had, they thought she had delay a Titus. Was that it? Delay of Titus. Yes. Another one suggested liar, liar at Titus.

And liabilities. Someone else said liabilities. That's what I was going to say is that I think she has this uncurable condition of liabilities. That's exactly what she has. So it's not treatable. But yes, right, exactly. One of the really wild things that happened in this trial is after refusing to throw Chad

under the bus, she really started to throw. her niece, Melanie Boudreau under the bus, but claiming that she wasn't. She said, I'm not doing that. I'm not throwing her under the bus. She's like a daughter to me. I'm like, well, we know, you know, that doesn't give us any confidence.

But, you know, I'm not throwing her under the bus, but then she would go on to say, she's the one with the financial motive. I don't have a financial motive. Melanie has a financial motive, which, I mean, it felt like a little gas-sliding because I'm like, I'm pretty sure she's throwing Melanie under the bus while saying,

she's not throwing Melanie under the bus, right? So it's like kind of twisty, which is what she does. Like that's ghastly like, no, she's throwing her under the bus by telling us she's not throwing her under the bus. So there's that aspect.

But why do you think she was so willing to throw Melanie under the bus when she wouldn't do that with Chad? Chad is the leader. So, I mean, and her husband, right? And I mean, the golden cap is the golden cap.

Oh, and she kills her husband. I don't know. Well, yeah, I think, well, I mean, not all of them, by the way. No, no. I mean, it's a different dynamic. You know, Melanie is just one of the 144,000, whereas Chad is above. In the hierarchy, Chad is untouchable. So I think she's, she sees Melanie as being much.

more expendable than Chad. Without Chad, there's no new Jerusalem to lead. Right. She has no hope. If Chad's not real, then she deserves her sentence. If Chad is not a real prophet and not someone she should follow and almost worship, then she is actually simply an aging serial killer behind bars. Right. She's wrong.

Whereas if she's wrong about Melanie, then, oh, well, you know, she, she got one of the 144,000 wrongs. They'll go find someone to replace her, right? But you can't replace Chad. Right. Well, if she's right about Melanie, then she's innocent again. It's Melanie's fault.

Melanie had the financial motive, not her. And Chad's still the leader of their belief system, leading them all to the New Jerusalem, and she's still a goddess, and she's still right. And there still were no murders in this murderous spree. So, yeah, interesting. That makes sense.

There is one other thing from closing that was really interesting that Lori threw out, which was at the very end, she said, she talked about this family devastation again. Again, this whole idea of this being a family tragedy that just struck from on high, like she can't let that go. But at the very end, she said the devastation the family went through is a tragedy. And this is the part. So, all right, we get the tragedy thing that she's trying to blame it on that, right?

She, it's one of her, you know, as I said earlier, it's, it's like one of her greatest hits. That there was no, there were no murders here. It was just a family tragedy that the details of which are still somewhat vague and sketchy, but hey, okay. So there was a family tragedy and then she says, after six years, quote, it's time for healing. It's time for healing. I'm thinking, I'm like, what? Like, you know, even for her,

that was like an incredible ending. So let's think about this for a minute. Is she talking about healing for her? Like, is she saying it's time for healing? Why don't you all get off my back and, like, give me a break? Like, I need to heal, like, leave me alone. Right? So is it healing for her?

That was my first thought. She's like, just let me heal, right? How many murder sentences can I serve? Okay. I mean, so I don't know. Maybe that's it. But then my next reaction was, well, wait a minute. Like, you're telling us to heal?

Like, you're, you can't tell people how to heal, right? You can't like, let us heal on our own, right? If we're all affected by this differently, we all have different views of this crime. Like, don't, then I got mad. I'm like, don't tell me how to heal. I don't want to, you know, I don't want to listen to your family, so-called family tragedy. And then have you tell me how to heal. So that was kind of interesting.

Like there's something that's almost a little controlling and coercive about, like, telling people to heal, which I kind of heard is like, get over this. like you all need to heal, get over this, forget about it, right? Like, let's move on, just go heal and leave me alone. And I think that kind of raises the final point about the healing thing, which is, and this is a more profound question, but it's condescending, right? It's like so condescending in the sense that the question I always have is, can anyone really ever heal from murder?

And what about can people really heal from multiple murders, right? Like a situation like this, can these families heal? Can people, even people interested in investing in this crime? Like, you know, do we ever really totally heal from really heinous, murderous events, right? But here she is, like calling for healing. Like, you all get over this. I'm moving on.

I'm healing. I hope you guys do too. Let's forget about it. Exema is unpredictable. But you can flare less with ebbglys. A once-monthly treatment for moderate to severe eczema. After an initial four-month- or longer dosing phase, about four-in-10 people taking ebblis achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks. And most of those people maintain skin that's still more.

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They get their race day fit, and you get a payout for trying. Someone on Deepop wants what you've got. Start selling now. Deepop, where Taste recognizes Taste. But I don't, obviously, I don't think it's that simple. I think that healing is complex, and it's kind of an individual, occurs on an individual basis. And honestly, in the work I do, I'm not sure that there's,

ever such a thing is full healing when murders occur. Murders have ripple effects. They affect individuals, families, neighbors, communities. They, you know, they have huge ripple effects. So I'm not sure that, you know, so it's, it's, it was an interesting, I thought it was a really fascinating way for her to enter closing arguments. It's probably the first thing. It's probably one of the last things we're ever going to hear from Lori Daybell.

And that is, it's, quote, it's time for healing, which is interesting. Because I'd be really curious to get people's thoughts on that. But those are some of my initial thoughts. How about how she doesn't facilitate healing either if she was ready to heal, then plead guilty. Say you were wrong. Apologize. Tell us what you did. Exactly.

If you want us to heal, start with yourself and fix some things. She's totally combative. Yeah, totally. She's always combative. Right, exactly. And also, yeah, if you want us to heal, tell us the truth. That's what Colby always wanted. Tell us what happened.

Take responsibility. Don't call this a family tragedy. Right. You can't heal from a family tragedy that it wasn't a family tragedy. It was a murderous spree. Yeah. Yeah. So she makes healing very deep.

difficult. You are the reason we're not healed, Lori. You are the reason we're all here today talking about you still because of you and your actions and your lack of remorse and the fact that you would say in a closing statement, you all need to heal instead of taking any responsibility. I know you have to go. Do you think she'll ever say what she did? It's so arrogant, right? It's so condescending. It's so arrogant. Like to ask for, healing, a multiply convicted murderer asking for healing. I mean, I guess in the right, as you point out, like in the right context, that would make sense, but not here, not after giving us, like, misinformation about what happened. She knows that that's misinformation. She knows

this wasn't a family accident and tragedy. She knows that. Yeah. And Colby, Colby knows it, too. Colby's always, you know, I've known Kobe for years now. That's all, that's, that's the one thing he's always wanted the most was he just wanted his mother to tell him the truth and take responsibility and apologize, right? Because that's part of what he and probably a lot of people would need to heal. I know you have to head the whole parenting thing. I'll be home soon. Let's give you a break. Do you think that she will ever admit to what she did? That's a question somebody had. I think if it happens, it's going to be a long way down the road. I don't think she's so caught up in this delusion and she's so incapable of acknowledging what happened.

And she's so literal about how she sees this. Like, you know, she wasn't there. So she didn't do it, right? Like, I think it's possible, but it's, it's going to. to be years. I think it's going to be a long time, if ever, that she would. Yeah. I don't think she ever will if you want my opinion. I just, the way I see it, I can't see it getting better. Barry, Barry Cox has never admitted to, you know, defrauding the IRS. He will, he will go to his grave being right. And I don't

see his daughter any differently. I leave the door a little bit open because I've worked with some criminals that I thought would never, that came into some of my groups just beyond defiant. And I never would have guessed that they would have some type of transformation. And sometimes it's not clear why. Sometimes something clicks. I don't know. Like, I think there's always a little room for hope that people can change.

So I kind of want to leave that door cracked a little. But I mean, if I had to assign a probability to it, it would be very low, you know, since we're in Nevada. You know, people assign probabilities to everything here. You know, very low, like 2% chance. All right. Well, we love you, babe. Or I love you. I mean, sorry, I should speak for myself.

don't tell me how to heal and don't tell me who to love. I mean I love you. I don't even, I'm not even, there's a lot going on. Sorry, guys, and I'm talking. But I will see you soon. And thank you.

And I just want to say thank you for everyone for tuning in. I also want to apologize to everyone. There was a mass outage today. It was across the nation with a, it was Google Cloud. And that was a streaming service for many, many creators and news agencies. both and it was i'm sure a lorry loved it knowing that right before her guilty verdict

streams across the nation just shut down lorry don't flatter yourself had nothing to do with you you don't think that we have you willed it yeah you don't think that she willed it or use some type of sorcery she'll think it so i wanted to know you didn't um And we do have the full verdict on our channel now. And we have a couple other things coming to you today, some interviews. So stay tuned to Hidden True Crime. Hit subscribe, hit notifications because there's going to be no warning for some additional things that come down today. Babe, thank you.

All right. I need to run. Yes. We'll see you. Bye. All right. Bye. At my bank, I was literally getting pennies using wallfronts.

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