Hidden True Crime - Psychologist REACTS: Lori Vallow's UNHINGED Interview w/ Colby Ryan

Episode Date: October 10, 2024

SUBSCRIBE TO COLBY RYAN: https://www.youtube.com/@ColbyJRy FULL INTERVIEW LINK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehA9_N6u3yg COLBY RYAN LINKTREE: https://linktr.ee/colbyjryan About Hidden True Crime: Lauren Matthias was a television reporter for a decade and has followed the Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell case since 2019. She and her husband, Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We are here for, I guess you could say, mid-week hidden hour. There was breaking news, and that is why we're here, a interview that Colby Ryan did with his mother, Lori Vallow-Daybel. Lori Vallo-Daybel is convicted of killing three people for two children, Tiley Ryan and J.J. Valo,

seven-year-old J.J. Valo, 16-year-old, Tyler Ryan. as well as conspiring to kill Tammy Daybell, Chad DeBell's wife, then wife. They went on to get married after she allegedly killed Charles Vallow in Arizona as well. She is charged with that crime, but not yet convicted. So we have not heard from Lori Vallow Daybell since her sentencing in 2023, where she came and shared some really bizarre things back then, talking about there being no murders, only being accidental deaths, suicides, and Colby Ryan got on a call with Lori recorded it. You can see this entire hour-long interview on his channel. We'll have the link to that in the description of this YouTube video or this podcast episode if you're listening on our podcast.

Go watch this hour-long interview because it is wild and it is upsetting and it is shocking. and so we are here to talk to you a little bit about our thoughts. And then later this week, you, John, will be on Colby's channel. Is that right? Talking about this and processing this with him. But until then, we're going to talk about our initial reaction right here. So if anybody was expecting a confession from her and an apology, no. You can get rid of that.

idea altogether right now. But John, I think I just want to, I really haven't asked. This is very real. John watched it. I watched it. I haven't really asked you your thoughts yet, but people, people want to know. What did you think watching Colby interview his mother from prison? I think it was difficult to watch. Colby talks about how hard it was, how it was the most difficult conversation he's ever had and I can see why. I think Colby went in with maybe a certain set of expectations and those expectations weren't met. So not surprisingly, I think that Lori Valo Debel is the same person she wasn't sentencing. This is the same person she was before sentencing. She's the same person she was at trial and she's the same person on this phone call.

So I know Colby has really searched and hoped for some type of resolution or some type of apology for many years. And not surprisingly, he didn't get it here. So just the pain of dealing with that for him is immense. And you see this on the call. So it's a very moving, courageous call on Colby's part. And I just want to say that, you know, I feel such empathy. for him and such compassion for Colby and all the pain he's experiencing and the suffering

and how he's trying to cope and get through this. It's going to be an immensely difficult task for him moving forward. And I'm looking forward to catching up with him later in the week to discuss the call on a more personal level with him. You know, I think another thing that Colby was looking for, I mean, because he said it in this interview, that he was looking for understanding. He just wanted to understand. and some things. And at Lori Vallow's sentencing in Idaho, again, that was the last time any of us heard from her publicly. Jesus knows me. And Jesus understands me. I mourn with all of you who mourn my children and Tammy. Jesus Christ knows the truth of what happened here.

Jesus Christ knows that no one was murdered in this case. Accidental deaths happen. Suicides happen. Fatal side effects from medications happen. Colby wanted to understand what his mom meant by that. And Lori's response was shocking. appalling, I'll call it disgusting. It was very upsetting what she said or how this happened, how her two children were found. Basically, you said no one was murdered. That was your biggest statement.

You said not one single person was murdered, but everybody, you said there were suicides and deaths, accidental deaths, and you said that there was drug overdoses, that no one was murder. Well, who about my attorneys? I mean, think it's fair to Colby to not have this information, since he is the only person was to do that. You

are the only person, Colby, in the entire world that I felt like I said, I want to talk to Kobe and tell him because he deserves to know. I don't care anybody else knows, and I frankly don't care anybody else thinks. It's not their children. They're my children and they're your

brother and sister. And we were the family and we were the ones doing everything for them and when you took care of jj which ily was in the hospital that time before we had to move to hawaii and you sat there with him as a two-year-old but before medication before we knew he had autism and he would just run like a hundred miles an hour and i remember because when i picked when you picked us up at the airport picked us up and you were so mad at me when you picked me up with jj and you're like what are you doing and you're too old to be You're a grandma age and you're too old to have this baby and what are you doing and he's going to have so many problems and you were really mad. His own love and you fell in love with JJ.

You Colby did and when you wanted you the most to him, when you took care of him and Tyling and I were in the hospital and Charles was in Hawaii trying to set up the house and you were trying to move out of that huge 5,000 square foot house and we were just throwing everything in the dumpster because we couldn't move it. We didn't have time because we didn't expect Tyler to be with angry and Titus in the hospital. And I was in there with her screaming. And so you are the only person that deserves to know the truth. Also, I can't tell the story of what happened to Tyley and JJ without telling Tiley's life. And I don't necessarily want to tell that to the public, but you know it. You are the only person who lived it with me and her. her. You lived it with me. You went with me and her to therapy every week. You were the ones there

where she was crying and screaming and throwing things in walls because they were forcing her to go to Joe. You saw all of her moods. You knew how she had depression and anxiety and anxiety attacks. And you and Kelsey were even coming over to mentor her during that time. You know because you were there and you were there with JJ. You were there with Tiley. I didn't want to write it out like that. I didn't want to just say, oh, this is what happened. I wanted to talk to you and answer your questions, so I can tell you everything that actually happened

and if you have a question of somebody, well, the police said this, then I have an answer for that. That's not what they weren't there and they don't know. So I wanted to talk to you so I could hear your questions and answer your questions because you are the only person besides me

on this whole earth who really love both of them. The way that I And so you heard what happened if you heard that what I wrote. They wouldn't give me the detail, really. So I, that's why I'm asking, because I, that's what. I would be happy to tell you personally and privately because I don't know if you want those details out in the public. So did you know Tiley's desire of wanting to be cremating her?

That was your version of cremating her? That was the version? Because that doesn't sound. It wasn't mine. That desire? No. I'm upset. And I knew that she was upset with me that we did because she wouldn't stay at the house because I would

stay there and she hits Melanie Gibb, as you know. Everyone knows this. She hated her. And she couldn't stand her smell because she had the essential oils entirely got sick off the essential oils in sixth grade because her teacher made her drink the essential oils in sixth grade to help her pancreatitis if you were remember all that. So she didn't want to stay there. So I asked her to babysit.

JJ put him to bed that night, which is what she always has done, right? She was going to do my podcast with stupid Melanie and Dave, right? So JJ wouldn't interrupt it. And then I was picking him up in the morning to get him ready and take him to school. Came in on that scene and they were gone. She was mad at me. and that's what had happened.

And the reason why she visited me and why JJ gave to me because to tell me that it wasn't my fault because I was blaming myself 100%. 100%. Why didn't I get timely more help? Why did I let her get off of her meds? Why did I not do something different?

Why did I let Melanie get to stay here? Why did I do any of these things that would lead to this. How could it possibly have happened? Why? Why and how? Why and how? I mean, that is like, no one in the earth can imagine what that's like.

You're telling me that Ty Lee took JJ's life and then took her own life. On accident. And took her own life then? After. So who chopped and burned her and who ducted JJ and put it in the ground? Anyone to know? I've done to JJ, and I wanted to continue to protect. It's been trying to protect her whole long,

trying to get him to not scream and be loud in the apartment, which she was always upset about. We weren't in a big house anymore. We were in these tiny little apartments, and he was loud. And what if she held him down too long and realized afterwards what she had done? What if she had come running to me and told me what she had done?

Right? That it was an accident. Do you not think that I would have told police that I did it to save Tiley? Because you know that I would have. Thoughts on her blaming Tiley for the death of both of them? Her daughter Tiley, the victim in this that was murdered? Yeah, so I think the very first thing that Lori says, I think, holds the key to this entire conversation. He plays her hand.

she starts by saying you remember she says that tylee appeared to her in a dream and tyly said to her tyly essentially apologizes to laurie and says i'm sorry for being such a brat because she visited me and told me and the very first thing she told me was i'm sorry mom for being such a brat she told me and it was so worse so i just wondered if she had said something to you that you were called and that was such a long time ago. I just always have wondered because I never asked you at the time. And she giggled when she said that to Colby. Yeah. I think that's critical because it really shows how Lori perceives this entire situation, that she really does see Tiley as a scapegoat.

I really think this is a type of projection, that she's creating this fantasy that Tiley's responsible when in fact she knows that she's more than likely responsible. I think if in that dream, Tiley had appeared and said, I'm sorry for being such a murderer. If you take the word brat out and put murderer in, then I think it becomes completely understandable in terms of projection, because projection is essentially taking some unwanted part of ourselves

and pointing it out there on someone else so that we don't have to deal with it. So let's say hypothetically, I mean, we know that Lori's a convicted murderer. So let's say that Lori can't cope with that fact, that she can't digest the fact that she's a convicted murderer. It makes sense that she's going to blame someone else. Instead of dealing with how difficult that is to accept as a mother, because she sees herself or she did see herself as this perfect mother, it's easier for her to interpret this situation by blaming Tiley and so if she can't accept that she's a murderer

then you'd expect her to say something like Tiley to see Tiley coming to her and saying I'm sorry for being such a brat or I'm sorry for being such a murderer because that's essentially what she accuses her of being yeah accidental or not she said it's an it was an accidental accidental murder An accidental death done by Tiley upon her brother, which I want to point out,

and we can get in this into a little bit, but again, Tiley was last seen in Yellowstone weeks before J.J.'s death and was not around. She had, according to discovery and court documents and the prosecution, Tiley had been killed weeks earlier. So it's absolutely impossible. that Tiley did this. You know, so you think that this is,

are you saying then that? I'm saying that in projection, she's essentially projecting this aspect of herself, this element of herself onto Tiley. When she's saying that Tiley's saying, I'm sorry for being such a brat, in some ways what she's saying is, I'm sorry for,

that Lori is sorry for being such a brat, or i.e. translation for being such a murderer. that Lori can't accept the fact that she was involved in this scheme, that she played a role in murdering her children. And because she can't accept that, she's putting that on someone else. She's putting that on Tiley. She's forcing this label on Tiley so that she can cope

and that she can maintain this image of herself as this perfect, innocent, loving mother. And she especially needs to maintain that image with Colby. Because a big part of this call was an attention. to maintain a relationship with Colby. There's a huge amount of manipulation going on here in terms of she tells Colby over and over, I love you so much, I love you, I love you, I love you,

over and over and over. Because she knows that maybe the only human being out there who can provide support to her for the rest of her life in prison is Colby. He's the last one standing. So Lori desperately needs him. in some sense to maintain this image of herself as the perfect mother, as this loving perfect mother.

And so she's using this platform to try to reconnect with Colby and to get him essentially to reestablish their relationship. And she does that in a lot of interesting ways. But the most obvious is she says over and over and over how much she loves Colby and how Colby is the most important. person to her. There's this constant plea for Colby to reciprocate the love that she feels for him that she's expressing because Colby's the only one left who can love her.

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For a limited time, you can get 15% off your entire first order at happy mammoth.com. That's happy H-A-P-P-P-Y mammoth. M-A-M-M-O-T-H.com. Just use the code hidden true crime at checkout. That's code hidden true crime. Use that with happy mammoth.com for 15% off today. Colby says that on the call that he has not spoke. He's not spoken to his mother in four years. This is the first phone call. So you're right. There is desperation in Lori.

She says that losing Colby was worse than losing JJ and Tiley. Which was really the hardest walk because you were my best friend for 24 years. Past four years was harder on me than even losing the kids. and then goes on to say that only Colby would understand the depth of her loss of these two, but telling him that losing him has been harder on her than the death of his two siblings. And so you're right, there's this desperation for her to try to rekindle some sort of relationship, which he does not do. He says that he forgives her, but can't be in her life.

And we can talk about that more when you talk. talk with Colby. But she did. She fought that moment to try to kind of redirect it. So a lot of, it was really manipulative. Yeah. I mean, of course, it didn't help her case that she perpetually blamed Tiley for the murders. That's not going to help her case. But in spite of that, I mean, she can't, he can't live with another narrative. That's the problem. And that's where, that's where this does become projection. That's where this does become this fantasy. she's created that tightly committed these murders because that's how she needs to see it. That's how she needs to perceive it in order for herself to function and to maintain some element

of decency and goodness as a mother. Because she has, in her mind, she has seen herself as this perfect mother prior to these crimes. Okay. This is actually a big question. This is a question everybody's writing us about, you know, manipulation versus delusion. because she's clearly a manipulative person. And clearly, you know, according to Rob Wood, who was, who talked with us on our channel, Prosecutor Rob Wood, he said, I absolutely believe Lori believes her delusional beliefs.

She's been diagnosed with delusional disorder. She's been diagnosed with a personality disorder with narcissistic traits. We've, you know, seen it all. We've seen her manipulation in court and on body camp footage. So first off, I want to point out that this story of Lori being there and seeing both of her children dead at the same time, even though, again, we know that they died on different dates and that Tiley was killed first, murdered, first. This is something that she's always maintained. And I've brought this up before, but I want to remind everyone really quickly, this is. this is Lori Vallow's alibi

sent by her attorneys it states come now the attorneys for the defendant and pursuant to Idaho criminal rule 12 Idaho Code 19-519 provide notice of alibi as follows Number one, Lori Vallow was in her own apartment in Rexburg, Idaho

when J.J. Valo and Tiley Ryan died in the apartment of Alex Cox in Rexburg, Idaho. Defendant was with Melanie Gibb, David Warwick, and or Chad DeBell. Number two, Lori Valla was in Hawaii when Tammy DeBell died at the home of Chad Daybell in Salem, Idaho. Defendant was with Melanie Boudreau and or Audrey Baratario. So her alibi, and I feel like people didn't fully grasp this when it came out, and I tried to show

it, but of course the prosecution came in and they rejected. it. But she is stating that they died essentially together, although it's vague, and that it was when Melanie Gibb and David Warwick were in town, which would go to, it would be this September 22nd, 2019 date, and that she did believe that she saw them deceased at the same time. We also know from an inside source that she has maintained this story. of it being Tiley's fault, that a source from the defense team, that this has always been what Lori has maintained. So we didn't really hear about the alibi in court during the trial.

But we know from someone on the defense team that Lori has maintained that this is Tyley's fault, even though they did not present this in court. And so my question to you is a lot of people are wondering, oh, is she changing her story and this is her newest one? Help me understand, does she really believe this? She's maintained it for years now that this is actually what happened. And so does she really believe this? Or is this pure manipulation? Or is it both? Well, so there's a moment when she's talking about all the medication that Tyler's taking. and how she stopped her medication. Colby says, so you think the meds led to the murders?

And Lori says, in my mind, yes. You'll notice that Lori says, in my mind, multiple times. Was still protecting Tyler, in my mind. You're telling me that all of this is to protect my sister's name because of what she did. Is that way it was? In my mind, yes. Which is really interesting because on the one hand, like, if I'm talking about something that I know to be accurate, I'm usually not going to say in my mind, I'm going to describe it the way I believe it occurred

because I think that's accurate. So when you say in my mind, you're qualifying it. And that would suggest that there's a part of her that knows it's not completely accurate. I think she's convinced herself at some level. So to answer your question, it's not an all or not answer. Does she believe? Yeah, I think she believes to some degree. She's delusional.

Does she believe completely? Does she know in her heart at the deepest subconscious level that Tiley was not responsible for these murders? Yes, she probably knows that. And that's why she qualifies a lot of her answers with, in my mind. In my mind, this is how it happened. well, what about in somebody else's mind? What about in the mind of your defense attorney?

What about in the mind of Chad Daybell? What about in the mind of law enforcement, right? It's a peculiar way to represent the story. And it would suggest that at some level, she knows this is how she sees it, and therefore it may not necessarily be true. Why blame it on Tiley? and not Alex. Alex is deceased too.

She could simply say Alex accidentally killed JJ. Alex did this and, you know, why Tiley? Yeah, right. It's the same reason that Tiley comes here and says, I'm sorry for being such a brat. Because Tiley's oppositional. In Lori's mind, Tiley's oppositional,

which I'm sure any parent of a normal teenager would expect from their child, some oppositionality. That's part of being a teenager. They're growing up. They're trying to figure out who they are. But Alex Cox was a loyal warrior. Alex Cox was given a blessing by Chad Daybell. Alex Cox carried out their mission and their vision.

Tiley opposed it. Tiley fought back. She questioned Chad. Therefore, she's labeled a brat. Right? there's a moment here. I'm going to read this during the interview where Lori says,

Tiley was upset. I'm paraphrasing. I didn't write this down verbatim. Tiley was upset. She hated Melanie Gibb. She asked the babysit, JJ. Tiley did it to get back at me. To get back to me. That's why she visited. So she says after that, she visited me to tell me

it wasn't my fault. So why Tiley? Because Tiley opposed her and Tiley opposed Chad Daybell. The other, because another fascinating part about this interview, and we've seen this repeatedly with Lori, is she says that Jesus visited her multiple times. She compares herself to Job. Jesus tells her, you have a job to do.

Presumably that job is to carry out mission of establishing the New Jerusalem with Chad Debo. You have a mission to do Lori. You're going to encounter Lucifer. You're going to counter all these obstacles, but you need to do this. It's going to create a tremendous amount of suffering. You're going to be just like Job, but you need to carry out this mission. So the mission, we talked about this years ago on our first podcast.

The mission is more important than anything else. It still is to Lori. sitting in prison as a convicted murderer, she still talks about how important the mission is and how she's Job and she was put there to carry out this mission. So, I'm Jesus personally. So when he came hands on my head

and ordained me to do something for him, like a job, right? And he said, will you do this job if you lose everything? This was in, this was in 2017. And then he said, will you do this job if you become like Job? When he was right there with me and you have those wonderful, heavenly, peaceful feelings, I thought, sure, I'll do anything you want me. I'll do, go to the ends of the earth.

I'll follow you to the end of the earth like Peter. And then you walk into that scene and you're on the ground like. Peter, like, what is this about? What you mean? There's everything. I lost. Jesus gave me a job. Lucifer has to earn every single thing to get me.

That's his goal if I do out for Jesus, right? The only thing I have to do for Jesus is stay here, right? He needs to be here to help people. Right. Now, there's eight women, there's eight women in my pod right now facing the death penalty. Okay, eight women in this little girl, I help them every day. I help them doing their workouts. I help them doing all these things.

I help them with their cases. Whether Jesus needs me, him and serve him in primary or in prison, he asked me to do this for him. And that's one reason why Tiley gets scapegoated and not Alex Cox, because Alex Cox was on board with that mission. Tiley pushed back against the mission. She pushed back against Chad Daybell. She probably thought a lot of this was nonsense. Tiley was smart. She saw through this.

She saw through Chad Daybell. So she's a very accessible and easy person to scapegoat because she wasn't a true believer. So given a choice between scapegoving Alex Cox, which, yes, the evidence is much more consistent with pointing the finger at Alex Cox. She's not going to do that because Alex Cox was given a blessing by Chad Daybell, and Tiley was not. Tiley is not a loyal soldier. She needs to be vilified. She needs to be put in her place. But it's over the top to suggest that Tiley came back to her in dream and said,

hey, mom, don't worry about it. You're not at fault. I was a brat. I was to blame for everything. And by the way, thanks for murdering me. I really appreciate it. Thanks for taking my life, Mom. I trusted you to protect me.

But, I mean, of course, she left that part out. Is a scapegoat another way of saying Tiley was dark? Is that what she's essentially implying still? Tiley is still dark? A brat? Yeah, I think she still believes that. I mean, yeah, a scapegoat is just, it's a way for her, again, it's a projection. It's a way for her to put all of these difficult,

and painful emotions onto someone and something else rather than accept responsibility for them. So rather than say, I murdered or I played a role in the murders of my children, which she can't say, she can't accept that, she can't come to terms with that, she has to say something else. So Tiley becomes that scapegoat becomes that vehicle

through which she can express her, inexpressible feelings. So in other words, just going back to my original question, it's both she is manipulative, yet believe some of this still. But again, that's maybe a defense mechanism. And as you point out, she says, in my mind, in my mind, in my mind, when she says that Tiley did this to get back at her, would that also imply that she doesn't really believe that she was an evil spirit, that it was Tiley?

that it was Tiley and let me go a little bit further she also points out that the zombie thing isn't I mean this is semantics but she goes off about how she's never said zombies zombies isn't her thing

she doesn't believe in zombies yes I would okay so yes but yet and she does say that people can be inhabited by evil spirits and she allegedly believed

Charles was Ned Schneider and he was not Charles anymore and I do know for a fact that Chad Daybill certainly believed in He wrote about zombies on the Eval website. He talked about shooting zombies during the apocalypse. So, you know, of some of that semantics.

But are you, I also, does she believe that Tiley was really Tiley? I guess that's the next question because of a few things she said that contradict her. Tiley did this to get back at me. Tiley visited me and apologized for being a brat. I don't believe in zombies. Whether she believes in, yeah, it is semantics.

Whether she believes or not, Chad Dayball did, and she believed Chad Daybo. So to deny the fact that she believed in zombies is really irrelevant. She believed what that represented. And there's a moment when she actually refers to Tiley as a zombie. So in some ways, it's dishonest. Tiley hears her say, remember Tiley was, it was in the kitchen, I think. I don't remember the exact circumstance now, but.

Yeah, I believe it was Melanie Gibb that shared this. story. Right. Melanie gives her the story that JJ was acting out and Tiley was there and somehow Lori said,

well, I think you're a zombie or something. I don't remember the exact details. Yes. And then Tiley said, no, Mom, not me. Right.

And Lori kept saying to Colby on this phone call, you can check the text. I've said, I've never texted the word zombie. But that doesn't mean she didn't say it. That doesn't mean she didn't say it. Yeah.

Just because there's no written record of it. I mean, so in some ways, that's completely dishonest because she did call Tiley a zombie. Yeah, according to witnesses. So, I mean, some of this, too, is if she has any guilt, and I don't know that she does, I mean, the way she's treating Tiley suggests that she has very little remorse. But certainly some of this could be assigning blame to Tiley could be a way of her. dealing with her guilt?

Yeah, you know, clearly the, I respect the defense for not allowing such an alibi or idea to be said during the trial because it's horrendous. It's absolutely horrendous to blame a child, a victim for this. But she essentially did that, make no mistake. That is what she meant. also mentioned that she would have never brought this up in trial because she didn't want to. What does she say, like, hurt Tiley or she would have never brought this up because she was going to protect Tiley?

Right. She kept talking about protecting Tiley. I mean, it's, again, it's this tremendous contradiction. You're not protecting someone if you murder them, but she apparently doesn't understand that contradiction. Unless you see protection as involving eliminating some evil spirit from the person's body. which maybe she, maybe that's it. Maybe she sees Tiley as a zombie and therefore, you know, I mean, that's the M.O.

of all the murders in this case that all the zombies need to be murdered so that the evil spirits can be released from their bodies. One of the very traumatic things about this case, the whole case is traumatic, but some of the traumatic evidence is how Tiley's body was found. burned, dismembered, charred, buried in a melted green bucket in Chad Daybell's yard. And according to Lori, it was because Tiley wanted to be cremated, loved Colby's response. That's not cremation. I did some checking.

And yes, this is not new. By the way, Lori has always maintained that this is why Tiley was found this way. But that makes me question then why, as Colby pointed out, why not tell somebody what happened and have them cremated? So it wasn't cremation. Is she making that up? I mean, that was confusing too. Does she know what happened to Tiley then? Was she like, yes, go burn her? Or is she now saying, oh, that's how she was found. Well, because she wanted to be cremated. I mean, that was really upsetting. I think what she's saying is that

assuming Chad Daybell was the one responsible for disposing of Tiley's body. I presume she's saying that he tried to burn her remains. He tried to cremate her remains. Yeah. And you know, she contradicts herself on that too. She says that she did this because

Tiley wanted to be cremated. Yet then she sort of is flippant about the body after death saying that nobody really cares, you don't really care what happens to your body. You're telling me, Tylee took JJ's life,

then took her own life, and then someone cremated her by dismembering her and burning her and throwing her in a pet cemetery, and then somebody bound JJ, put him in a trash bag, and threw him in the backyard. No, but that was it.

That was the end of it. Okay, so you gave it to someone else. you gave the responsibility to someone else is what you're saying. Bodies. And Kylie was so brutally mistreated after her death that it wasn't even human. It wasn't even humans. It's to your body after you die.

You can care less. Okay, hold on. I know people on Earth are really worried about it. I get it. I get it. I don't want to know. I did not intend for that to be done to. It's the most brutal thing I've ever heard in my life.

to her. It's the most real thing I've ever heard of my life. So I don't want to go over that really. JJ. I want to think about that. JJ was found.

They were not in there, Colby. They were not in there, is what I'm telling you. But I'm telling you. So no matter what it has to open and do an autopsy, yeah, that's really gross.

It's really gross when they do that anybody. That's not what I'm talking about. But with JJ... You're not in there. Anything that was done was after the fact, long. after the fact.

They were not in there. Okay. Yeah, I think someone suffering from delusions is going to have a number of contradictions in their narrative about events because it's not going to add up. It's not going to make sense.

I mean, a delusion, think of a delusion is essentially a big defense mechanism. It's you're creating this elaborate fantasy of how you want the world to be. It's not how the world is. It doesn't represent the facts. It's how you see it.

As she says, it's in my mind. She's acknowledging in many ways by saying, in my mind, that this is a delusion. This is all a fantasy. As you point out, Tiley's not even a lie. When Tiley supposedly accidentally murders JJ, however that is.

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And again, we don't know how that happens. Right. There's no details. There's no specifics on any of that. And that's because this is an elaborate fantasy, which is a delusion is a fantasy. A delusion is an attempt to create a world that doesn't exist. It's a world that you want to exist, but it's not real.

In my mind. In my mind. in my mind, right, go listen. Like she says, in my mind repeatedly, which is amazing, right? Like, she's, that's her tell. That's her tell. She's saying, this is in my mind. It may not be in your mind, but in my fantasy world, this is how I see it.

And I mean, her fantasy world is obviously, you know, that's why we have courts of law because they determine what's fantasy and what's not. And a jury in a court of law determined that, hers was a fantasy and that the reality was that the children were murdered yeah the reality was that it was alex's and chad's cell phone pings that led investigators to their bodies the discovery was so so large in why these two children were murdered on separate days tiley first that it is so hard to hear her spinning this tale and to think that her son,

that she wants to get back into his good graces with, that she actually thinks this would work. Maybe that's what's so frustrating too. Maybe that's what means she is delusional. If her desire is to be back in Colby's life and this is what she's telling him, she's got to be delusional to think this is going to even work.

Right. This is going to move the needle. in her favor. I mean, there's so many moments in here that are just out there. But I mean, they're, but they're not inconsistent with we know, with who we know Lori to be.

In fact, when we were watching this, one of my first comments to you was, this is Lori. This is who we know Lori to be. And while her remarks are absolutely unhinged, it's still Lori. Yeah.

So, yeah, so that everyone knows, I watched it alone and then I watched it with John, but I didn't really ask him any questions because I wanted it to be here. And I don't, I didn't really know what he thought. But the only thing I did know was that he kept repeating, this is the Lori we know. This is the Lori we know. I don't, he even said, people shouldn't be surprised. This is who Lori's always been. This is who she is. Um, but I, so one more question that I have for you. And, you know,

you've kind of brought it up, but we've covered this case now for over five years. We've talked about this. Our entire first season, you know, is dedicated to this case and trying to understand how something like this could ever happen and to get into the minds of both Lori and chat. And we've talked in the past about Lori projecting a lot of her pain onto Tiley, Tiley's whole life. And starting when Tiley was a young girl.

And we've speculated even on Munchausen by proxy or factitious disorder imposed upon another when it comes to Tiley's pancreatitis, pancreatitis. Of course, that's a theory you and I have. So I was struck with how she repeated that she kept. care of Tiley that she was so loving and going back to this idea of projection is it even is it even worse than that was she using Tiley as some sort of like voodoo doll like did did she commit the murders did she hold J.J. down and now she's blaming Tiley you see what I'm saying maybe that's exactly what I want to ask you that was where I jumped and you haven't addressed

this but that's where I went to. I'm like is she saying that she might have done this to J. and thus she's doing what she always does and putting the blame on Tiley? Well, part of projection is seeing a part of yourself and the other person. So as I said in the beginning, that opening quote from Lori, which really sets the stage for the entire interview,

that quote about Tiley visiting her when she's in jail and saying, I'm sorry for being such a brat. I think that says so much. that in many ways, to use your analogy, in many ways, yes, I think there is a voodoo doll element here, that Lori is scapegoating Tiley for so much that she's unable to cope with in her own life, whether it's her past abuse, whether it's her failed marriages, whether it's Tiley's opposition to Chad Daybell, that all of these elements, I think, are being projected or displaced onto

Tiley. The Tiley becomes the container Tiley becomes the container for all this negativity and all this suffering from Lori's past because Lori isn't able to deal with it on her own. So I think if you change that statement from I'm sorry for being such a brat to I'm sorry for being

such a murderer, I think you start approaching something that's very vital and accurate about this case that in many ways that this Tiley appearing to her in a dream, I think, is Lori speaking for herself. It's almost a confession of sorts. If you change that word, I'm sorry for being such a murderer.

Of course, Lori would never say that, but I'm saying that if you make that one substitution, I think you're getting close to something very real and accurate. And that is, yes, I think that if you think of Tiley's being, Lori's voodoo doll, then I do think it's very possible that Lori may have been directly involved in the murders, not just a conspirator, not just someone standing outside the door knowing what was going to occur, but somebody in the room.

Despite two convictions, both Lori Valo and Chad Daybell, the unanswered question is, who will responsible for what and I don't know if we'll ever have the answer to that question. Yeah. I think there's a presumption that Alex Cox may have carried out most of the actual murders, but I'm not so sure anymore. Right. To say, she also pointed out just how small the townhouse was and how you could hear everything. They weren't in a big home anymore, which has always been a concern to me too because

Melanie Gibb and David Warwick were there. It doesn't look good for Melanie Gibb. The more she talked about Melanie Gibb, the worst things look for her. I mean... Yeah, so to say in that moment, so to say in that moment, you know, the townhouse was small,

so if we're going to use Kylie as a voodoo doll, or this is about projection, she says the townhouse was small. And JJ was noisy, and he annoyed Tiley. And everybody could hear everything. And I had to finish the podcast.

cast. And this was annoying. So whether she accidentally held him down too long or gave him meds, I don't know, but it was an accident and she did this. I have to admit if that's projection and if it's literal projection, is she saying something about herself? Is she admitting to something horrendous that she did to JJ? I mean, well, so factually you have to remove Tiley from the room. And Tiley wasn't there. Tiley wasn't there.

Right. So who is she talking about? If you remove Tiley, it's her. That's where my mind went. Yeah. I think if you remove Tiley, who's left? Could it have been Alex? I guess.

Colt was not there. Alex? I mean, no, I don't think so. I mean, maybe, maybe, but. She said Tiley was supposed to babysit. And two people were supposed to babysit JJ. Tiley's not there. And two people watched JJ that day.

Lori was in charge of watching JJ and babysitting, babysitting, mothering, JJ. And Alex at one point took care of JJ. Right. There's only three people that it could be. Chad, Alex, or Lori. And so is she admitting, is she admitting by saying Tiley did this to herself? I think it's very probable. that Tiley becomes a projection of herself.

But again, that's not something that Lori would ever come to terms with. I mean, how did she get to the point where she thought or even envisioned that murdering her children would be acceptable? I think in that moment, she was so fully invested in this mission that I think murder was a possibility. So weeks after I had this visit with Jesus in the temple, I was in JJ's room at the big house where you got married. And Luther was right in standing right in front of me. And he said to me, I know who you are. I know exactly who you are. The media from against me that has come against me is from Lucifer.

She says, quote, the media flood is from Lucifer. So all the negativity, all the media, you and I, you and I, by doing this show, you and I are an extension of Lucifer. We're part of the media flood. So by trying to have a rational conversation about this situation, we're part of the media storm that's just perpetuating delusions apparently. We're speaking. We're speaking for Lucifer.

She, by the way, she says she goes so far as to say also that all the people that evaluated her when she was in the mental health wing of the hospital were wrong, that she's not mentally ill at all. But towards the end of her conversation with Colby, she says, there's nothing I could have done with a different, result for you to complete my mission. Oh, damn. It's the first time I realized that when Jesus asked me, lost everything of your life still. And this is my mission, and my mission will be revealed to everybody at some point,

and including you. And at that time, I just want you to know, I'm not going to say I told you so. I'm just going to say I love you. So she says it right there. How does she get to murder? It's the mission. The mission takes priority over human beings.

The mission takes priority over Tiley, who's standing in the way of Chad Daywell and her, and Alex Cox by being oppositional. This is something that, you know, this is something I talked about from the very first podcast we ever did. Right. that I really felt that this was a cult or Chad Debao was in charge of these murders

and he was what's known as a mission-driven serial killer. And now Lori, five years later, Lori is reiterating that very point that nothing was going to stand in the way of her mission because she was like Joe, because Jesus visited her in jail even, and said, you got to keep going. And she says it.

She says it at the very end. There could not have been a different result for Coli because she needs to complete her mission or their mission. That's all you need to know. Tiley is incidental to that mission. If murdering her means that the path towards the mission becomes easier, then they're going to do it, especially if they think she's a zombie.

Yeah, a not-not zombie. A lot of contradictions to her claiming mean that it was an accidental death, and then you just reading me that quote, that there was no other way this could have been different, that's not accidental. If there was no other, you know, an accident can be changed. It's a mistake. But at that, that line you just read us saying, make no mistake, there was no mistake here. There was no way around this. Right. There's nothing. There's nothing she could have done that would have been, what could have had a different result. Yep. Right. Exactly. That all of this was preordained, according to

Lori. So there's no accident. She just said it there again. Again, part of the delusion is creating this fantasy that it was an accident. I mean, again, it's completely contradictory. It was a murder. It wasn't a murder. It was a murder. It was an accident. It was a murder. It was a accident. None of it adds up. I mean, the biggest problem here is Tyley was deceased. When Tyley supposedly committed this accidental murder, she was deceased.

It would have been impossible. Unless she's envisioning Tiley's ghost coming back and committing the murder, maybe that's what she thinks. I don't know. Well, and again, that other TEL, that other slip that you mentioned, I thought she did this to get back at

me, end quote. Like, what is it? Was it an accidental death? Was it a purposeful death where she's trying to get back at you? And why would she want to get back at you? I presume, by the way, the getting back at her, that's fascinating because I presume that that has some element of maltreatment in it, that at some level she's recognizing. She's acknowledging here that there's some type of mistreatment or maltreatment towards

Tyley that Tyley is aware of, right? Was it, so what happened there? And how? Go ahead. Would that be consistent with the, the factitious disorder imposed on another, right? It could be all of that, the stuff we all, that we just talked about. It could be the factitious disorder. It could be different types of cruelty, verbal abuse, emotional abuse, comments about her weight, comments about her looks or appearance. I mean, there's a reason.

She talks about all the medication that Tiley was taking. There's a reason Tiley was taking that medication because she was an unhealthy environment. Tiley wasn't functioning well, not because she wasn't a functional person, but because she was placed in a context that was impossible for her. And I talked about this before.

I really felt at some level that Tiley knew what was coming for her. her. I don't think she ever could have guessed the absolute cruelty and decimation involved in her murder and to her body. I don't think she could have foreseen that, but I think at some level there's this ominous sense. There's this foreboding feeling for Tiley that something really bad is going to happen to her in the future. And she's not wrong about it. So in order to cope with that, she's got a pile of on the meds. I mean, and also part of it is they're giving her all these medications to sedate her in a way, I think. Like, they don't want her to see what's going on. They don't want to blind her

to the reality, which is this delusion they've all created, this fantastic world they've created that they're selling to everyone as real when in fact it's not real. It's pure fiction. If we're talking about projection, I also want to point out something that. that's really upsetting too. Again, the quote, I thought she did this to get back at me. I sometimes call projection, you spot it, you got it.

In other words, if someone says all the time that they're being bullied, they're being bullied, or that person is always saying, I don't like drama, I don't like drama, I don't like drama.

And that's what they say all the time. Maybe actually they're creating drama. If you spot it, you got it oftentimes. Lori is literally implying, that J.J. that Lori is literally implying that Tiley would kill JJ to get back at her. Who even thinks that? Who thinks that one child is going to kill their sibling to get back at you, the mother? And so again, I have to go to you spot it. You got it. Is this how Lori thinks? Is she,

could she kill someone or spite or spite or? revenge because if she's putting that on Tiley, she's clearly capable of that. That is bizarre to me. And I just want to point that out too. To say she did this, I thought she did this to get back at me is saying, I think that people sometimes kill others at a spike. Who thinks that? Lori Ballow. Yeah, there's definitely this vengeful, vindictive quality to Lori, for sure. And you see it there. Yeah. Anything else? Just some of these talks with Jesus are just fascinating to me. I mean, in and of itself, like, this belief that you're talking to Jesus consistently and that Jesus sees you as someone who

is so important. Yeah. Yeah, that he's that he's going to come back and spend time with you. He's going to hang out with you and tell you his visions for the future. Yeah. Right. Like, I don't know.

Like that to me is just mind-boggling, right? The level of narcissism involved in that. And I don't mean that as a diagnosis. I mean that as thinking that you're right, thinking that you're so self-important that Jesus really wants to hang out with you. She knows some of the dates. He came to visit her on February 2nd, 2024 in jail. But 20 days, so 20 days before her rest, Jesus visited her and he said,

Lori, quote, Lori, there is a purpose for your whole life. And it is my purpose. So trust it. I just want to think about the implications of that for a minute, right? Like, Jesus is coming, Jesus is coming to her and telling her that she is the vehicle through which he is going to carry out his mission or purpose. Yeah. I mean. And she's, yeah, no, go ahead.

I know. It's the grandiosity. Yeah, just the grandiosity of that. And just the delusional nature of that. I mean. And anyone out to get her is, is. Lucifer, whereas, you know, the devil is trying so hard to get her and take her down because she's so important. So Jesus visitor kind of told her, you know, his plans and why she was an integral part of his plans.

And then, of course, Lucifer came shortly after, and Lucifer said, quote, I know who you are and I will stop you. And Lucifer also told Lucifer essentially wanted her to take her own life. So he was apparently putting her a lot of pressure on her to do that. But because she's Job, she wasn't going to do that. And she had this mission to carry out. It's a bit of a morality play, right? It's a really simplistic, reductive kind of morality play

of good versus evil that, you know, if Jesus visits, then Lucifer has to. that she doesn't engage in a lot of complex thinking, obviously. This is a very simplistic, reductive view of the universe. And you see it here. This is why these delusions are so powerful for hers, because I don't think she knows how to get outside of this bubble. And I don't think she's able, you know, cognitively

to really address any complexity in the world. She's extremely limited. And I think that's something you see here too. And, you know, and there's something very sad about that. by the way, you know, that a lot of criminals, they don't exhibit this kind of extreme beliefs necessarily, but many of them have the kind of this limited view of the world. The way I think of it is like murder, in some ways, murder really simplifies the world because you're reducing the world to its most simplistic elements. When you murder someone, you're in charge, you're in control.

For a brief moment, like, you've simplified everything to its basic elements, life and death. good and evil Jesus and Lucifer right and that's how she that's how she thinks about the world there's a line from Colby I think that's that's really important you know Colby's trying to explain

he's asking her some hard questions and he's trying to explain to her how he's having a hard time accepting what she's saying and he says and this isn't going to be exact by the way I just I was taking notes so this is kind of a paraphrase but quote

I had to accept the fact that I lost my mom too. I do 100% forgive you, but I don't feel like I know you anymore. And I think that really, to me, Colby's position coming into this is that he really wants to maybe get some type of apology and some type of understanding and to really maybe try to figure out who his mother is

and whether his mother is someone he can continue to relate to in the future, whether he can continue to have a relationship with her. He's trying to evaluate all those things. One more question for you. It was really upsetting also to hear Lori bring up meeting Colby's daughter before she was born. I love you more than anything. I miss being a part of your life and my grandchildren's life.

I know why you're an eternal relationship before she was born. I didn't even know that Chelsea was due with the baby. And she came to me the night before she was born. And I held her as a baby in the spirit world. And she told me that we have loved each other for eons of time. And that she loved me so much. And the joy that filled me when I held that little baby filled me. Colby, she came to me because she knew that you wouldn't let me see her and you wouldn't let me talk to her.

But she said, our relationship is eternal. And she loved me. and I'm her grandma, whether you like it or not. She said, I'm your grandma, whether my parents like it or not. You're missing all this, and I'm sorry it's been harder on you, honey. I love you so much, and I'm sorry this has been minute. And I do 100% forgive you. I forgive you.

And I'm not going to hold you in a jail cell of my heart, but you cannot be a part of my children's lives. And I think you need to understand why. because you and I can't even go a part of each other's lives because I don't feel like I know you anymore and I don't want to hurt you by telling you that but I don't want to lead you on forgiveness is a choice of forgiving

it doesn't mean you keep going I mean it was like if she just couldn't get worse to hear her then say that Colby's daughter visited Lori before she was born to tell her grandma how much she loved her you know, and that they were so close. And then she's telling Colby just how close they were. I mean, that was sort of like, in my opinion, a deep level of manipulation too.

Yeah, there's so much manipulation here. And again, think of it in terms of she's now convicted of multiple murders. She's going to spend the rest of her life in prison. She narrowly evaded the death penalty, right? Chad Daybell is getting that, but she's not. So she has no supports except for Colby. This is like her best plea to Colby to stay in a relationship with her, to stay connected to her so that she has some family.

And she's pulling out all the stops. You know, she's telling Colby repeatedly how close they were, how much she loves them, how only Colby and her know really, know about Tiley and JJ, how they were the only ones that were really close to Tiley and JJ. But this is another, like all those elements are manipulative. But then, yeah, but then you throw in this, this other piece with Colby's second daughter. It's just, yeah, it's, it's really hard to fathom because she's trying to imply this intimacy with him. through something that clearly is imaginative.

And to also, it's sort of also, you know, clearly Colby has set some serious boundaries with his mother, as he stated, that it was the first time talking to her in four years. So she's never met then or talked to her granddaughter, Ava, that she brought up. And yet she's telling Colby, oh, but she loves me so much. We are so close. This is the woman that's been convicted of killing Colby's sister, brother, and as he says, his father, Charles Vallow. I mean, yeah, it's just, it's just like the depravity.

I don't know. Just the... Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Colby's kids are not going to be allowed in the same room with her. Or at least if there is, it's called a contact. So a contact visit in prison or in jail is when you're actually in the same room with an offender. Otherwise, visits are restricted to either video or there's plexiglass or glass. There's a glass barrier typically between the inmate and the person visiting. So there's different levels of visiting, but a contact visit would be the most intimate.

And I just, I'm trying to imagine the circumstance in which a convicted child murderer would, would ever get to see her grandchildren in person. Yeah. That's certainly what she was probably attempting to do. Well, that's, yeah. I mean, I think that's part of it. By trying to establish a relationship with Colby, I think she's trying to, it eventually developed the expectation that Colby will take his kids to visit her at some point, I presume, in prison.

Yeah. And, you know, tragically, I think at least for the moment, you know, I'll be catching up with Colby later this week. So we'll get into this in more depth. But I think that line is so important that at least in that moment, Colby says, I don't feel like I know you anymore. And I think that's kind of the essence that we grow up with what we think are stable perceptions of our parents and our environment and our childhood memories and our childhood memories and our child at home.

And in some ways, we need to cling to that type of stability and consistency to have a sense of who we are, to maintain a stable identity for ourselves. And what Lori's done is she's undermined that. She's pulled the carpet out from underneath Colby. and everyone in her world and really thrown all those assumptions into question and I think that's really what Colby struggling with is the fact that all those basic assumptions from childhood

about who his mother is, how she'll protect him and what she'll do for him, all of those assumptions are now shattered. And so I think when Colby says that, I think that's what he's expressing, that he doesn't really know her because she's undermined everything about the world that he thought was true.

And, you know, that's a really tough place to be. And I really have tremendous empathy for Colby and for his courage and confronting his mother and really trying to work this out. It's going to be a lifelong journey, I think, for Colby. If I can play a little bit of role in any of this or any of his healing, I'd be happy to do so. But, you know, I look forward to catching up with Colby later this week and really kind of getting his more intimate thoughts about this. conversation he had with his mother. Again, for those that want to watch the entire hour-long interview that Colby had with his mother, Lori Ballo, you can head to Colby's channel. The link is in the description of this YouTube video or podcast episode, wherever you're listening or watching this. You can

find a link and hit subscribe on Colby's channel so that you will be notified when Dr. John will be over there talking to Colby. but you're right she is who we always thought she was this is Lori Ballo this is who Lori Balo Debel is right in many ways

I think this is the same person that we saw during the trial during sentencing this is the same person that we talked about when she was a young adult and a teenager even I think that in many ways these elements

of extremity already existed way before Chad Daybell. Yeah. Thank you for answering my questions. I'll look forward to that conversation you have with Colby. And I just want you to know, too, that we are all looking forward also to your analysis thus far with the case out of Delphi, Indiana. And I'll be attending the trial of Richard Allen there in Carroll County. He is charged with the murders of Abby Williams and Lerner. Libby German. Could you give us a little, any sneak peek for us or what we can?

You know, Delphi, Delphi is, is a doozy. You know, one of the things, and it's taken me a while to really absorb the Delphi case because in some ways it's, it has kind of a personal resonance, but also I think Delphi really in some ways it strikes at the deepest levels of the subconscious in the human psyche. And I'll be explaining why that's true. So we'll be talking about a lot of elements of psychology that go well beyond Delphi, but that are quite consistent with the Delphi murders. And I think there's so many reasons why this case has generated a lot of interest.

and why it's touched so many people. And a lot of it has to do with the deeper psychological components. So my job will be to really help understand those components and to begin to make sense of it. Thank you. I look forward to it. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions,

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