Hidden True Crime - Psychologist Weighs in on Lori Daybell's Dateline Interview

Episode Date: March 14, 2025

Keith Morrison didn't just interview Lori Vallow Daybell for the recent Dateline special, but he also interviewed John and Lauren with Hidden True Crime. Dr John Matthias gives his take on the episode and Lori! See everything John and Lauren both think HERE WATCH: Patreon Exclusive Episode About Hidden True Crime: What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime https://www.patreon.com/c/hiddentruecrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, q-u-in-c-com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. For those who have asked, yes, John and I did watch Lori Ballot-Daybell's Dateline interview with Keith Morrison. And yes, Yes, we had things to say. What you're about to hear in this episode is from a Patreon exclusive video that we shared at patreon.com slash hidden true crime discussing our thoughts on the interview.

The entire video is nearly an hour and a half long and while it was made for Patreon, we have decided to share some of it here. Take a listen. Questions I wanted to ask John and we just wanted to do it in a more interesting. intimate place tonight. As someone who goes into jails and prisons to interview felons or criminals, 90 minutes is not a lot of time. In fact, when I talk to Shane, Shane is one of the producers for Dateline. Shane Bishop.

Shane Bishop, right. That was the first question I asked him was, how much time do you guys have? You know, he was talking to me about the interview process. And he said 90 minutes. And I thought, oh, my gosh, that's going to be a really tough hill. That's going to be a difficult hill to climb. I just never seen her so angry.

I haven't seen her that angry in court representing herself. I haven't seen her that angry in her sentencing. I haven't seen her. I don't even feel, and maybe I'm wrong. I don't know if I felt that anger in her. conversation with Colby and don't get me wrong she's been very angry and aggressive just I don't know it's just everything that she just exuded contempt well when she started the interview with I'm on trial here Keith you know that Keith right I mean you know there was another

moment we should I thought we were going to be friends Keith get your facts straight Keith You don't want to hear the truth, Keith. Like, I also like how she kept throwing in his name, too. I know. What was that about? Like, I, you know, like, we've been buds for years, Keith. Like, what happened to you? You know.

Yeah. Kind of like. She's calling him out or something. Oh, go ahead. You're going to say. Well, no, just like she's been watching Dateline for 30 years. And she feels like she, you know, knows this guy or something. I mean, but yeah, I wrote down that, after that first interaction, I wrote down on my notes,

Oppositional, defiant, angry, and misunderstood. And then later, I wrote, I wrote an out saying that she's trying to direct and control this entire interview through anger. She's coming off as being a little anxious. Also, I saw something else in her that I haven't seen before. She's a little manic. I felt like she was, you know, it could have been the context and it could have been the short, you know, the 90 minutes. But there was something definitely really manicy about her in this interview. You know, and maybe, maybe, just her just cutting him off, just kind of this flight of ideas, like just this high energy, you know, this grandiosity.

You remember the bumper sticker part where she says, if there was a bumper sticker, it would say Jesus loves you, but I'm his favorite, meaning that she sees herself as special. So you've got this grandiosity. I mean, none of that is new. but like looking at it in this context. And again, like my job is to sit in front of someone and just kind of absorb what they're presenting to me. If they're angry and defiant and oppositional, that's going to be obvious. I think some of the reason that she's feeling that way is because she feels misunderstood in the sense that Keith is not, he's not being compliant. He's not accepting what she, you know, she says repeatedly, I'm telling you the truth, Keith, you just don't want to hear it.

So she feels misunderstood. That's part of the reason for her. anger. But above and beyond that, like there's this constant nonstop kind of flighty, manic-manic quality, high-energy quality where she's just in his face. She's on there. She's just go, go, go. And I haven't really seen that with her before. You know, so that was something that was a little new. The anger I get, because the anger, when somebody, when I'm in an interview with a criminal, anger is their attempt to throw me out balance, number one. And it's also their attempt to control the interview. So if they're angry and defying it in my face, they're trying to push me back,

right? They're trying to get me on my heels. They're trying to get me on the defensive. They want me to back down. So the criminal probably thinks, well, if I'm angry, he's not going to ask hard questions. He's not going to get to the stuff he needs to get to. And so I'm going to look better. Of course, that's not true. I'll just wait them out. But, and my job also in those those moments is to diffuse the anger. So if somebody's angry, you know, when somebody says the kinds of things that Lori's saying, I'm just more or less going to try to agree with them.

I'm here to tell you the truth and you don't want to hear it. You know, I'll say, well, yeah, you know, I think you're right. Like, I don't, maybe I don't understand. I really, I think I'm, I'm off base here. I don't understand what you're saying. Like, help me understand. the truth. Tell me the truth. Right. And then I'll listen. But, I mean, Keith doesn't really have the time to do that.

You know, so again, like, I have, in my job, I'm going to have more luxury than he has because I'm getting approval to be in there for hours. I can't imagine how anxious Lori was probably feeling too, thinking this is her first and likely only television interview and everything she wanted to say and convey 90 minutes too. just thinking of that. She probably has been sitting in herself between dancing and, you know, reading her scriptures, thinking about what she wanted to say for 90 minutes in this interview. So just thinking about that too, like, yeah, that in itself would also make it hard.

She probably did want to come in and just command the room because she had things to say, you know? She did. She did command the room. And I agree. That could have been some of what I call the, quality that you could have seen her. Could have been that.

She clearly was anxious. Keith Morrison asked you a bunch of questions, actually. So we did an interview with Keith Morrison for another episode and were interviewed about this episode, mostly you. I try to get Keith Morrison to talk about the visions of, about visions of glory. It didn't work. But, you know. Yeah, I knew that was going nowhere, by the way.

I did my best. Hey, I got him to say Loin Fire. Never forget. Not that he wasn't interested. It just wasn't, I knew that wasn't going to fit their storyline. If I can get Lori to, you know what? Just because you said that, watch. Just watch.

By the end of Lori's trial, I will get Keith Morrison to talk about visions of Lori. That's my goal. Anyway, but I know what you mean. I agree. I didn't know if it was going to go anywhere. Anyway, now I'll be humble, Lauren. Yeah, you're, yeah, I get it. You're right.

When you were answering that question, I'm like, oh, my gosh, I couldn't say anything. I just, obviously, I was polite and listened to you, but you were telling Keith that and his eyes were glazing over and I'm like, this is not, this is way too, you know, religious or philosophical for the Dateline show, I think, as was everything I said. So you weren't alone. No, I think what you said was compelling and interesting. And I wanted you to share some of it here because it didn't make the show clearly. You brought up some stuff I'd never heard you talk about for.

I was like, what? Like, what is my husband saying? We were talking about this case for five years and you're talking about, Lori, but it was about her sort of this world that she lives in, this fantasy world that she lives in, that she doesn't escape, that she refuses to see any other. I'm so sorry, guys. I'm tired. John, it's been all, it's been along. I think we should have done audio. I think we should have done audio. I'm sorry, guys. Yeah, it's okay.

We should probably talk a little bit, too, about what's going on, but we could do that later because many already know. Yeah, it's been a long week for you, obviously, and you were exhausted when you came home. So that's one of the reasons that we were doing this on Patreon and not for broader audience. But yeah, so I talked a little bit about this for, for so it's more of a philosophical concept it's it's called solipsism solipsism is essentially the view that a person lives completely in their subjective world and that they don't they have really have no capacity they're isolated in that world and they have no capacity to to to really see outside of that world so it's it's a little bit it would be i think there'd be some overlap with delusional

disorder in the sense that delusions are also very self-absorbed. But I think delusional disorder, there's still some contact with reality, with the outside world, maybe to some extent in certain areas. I mean, like Lori knew that she was in a room with Keith Morrison, right? So she's not, she's not hallucinating. She has some contact with reality. Solipsism is the philosophical idea that we only, exist in our own realities and we don't have the capacity to get outside of those realities.

So again, there's overlap with narcissism, but it goes beyond narcissism in the sense that narcissism is more of a psychological description, whereas solipsism is even more extreme. solipsism is more of a philosophical perspective that says that we're basically trapped in our own subjectivity. And there's no, like for somebody that's completely solipsistic, there's just no venturing beyond those constraints of our subjectivity. And so I, I, when I see this interview, that's sort of where I go. I go more towards solipsism. I mean, people say, oh, she's a total narcissist, and that might be true, but I think you can even go beyond that.

Like, her denial of reality is so complete, and her subjective world is so narrow, and she's so entrenched in that world that, number one, I don't see her ever finding a way out of it. And number two, like, it feels very solipsistic in the sense that she's the only one who exists in that world and everyone else around. her is just a prop or

it's just a part of that subjectivity. I think most normal human beings, even narcissists understand that while they don't particularly, they don't have empathy for other human beings, they understand that they have to exist with human beings.

That they have to find their way. Like a productive narcissist knows that they need to use human beings to get what they want. Right? There's a, we call it Machiavellianism, which is that you, the they don't necessarily respect people, but they see them as a means to an end. A solipsis doesn't even go that.

And a solipsist is even more immersed in their own subjectivity that they don't even understand that concept. Solipsism, guys, you heard it here. You didn't hear it on Dateline because your solipsism didn't make it either. So you talk solipsism with Keith Morrison and I talked Visions of Glory. and, you know, clearly that's not what they were into. But my discussion of solipsism was too solipsistic to make the final cut. So another thing Shane asked is he asked you and me if we had any questions for her. And I don't know what you told Shane you wanted to ask.

I think you emailed a bunch of questions. I try to think what I asked. I'm going blank. Brain fog. What did you ask? I didn't email. I actually talked to him. Oh, you talked to you?

Yeah, we just had more of a informal conversation about things that I thought would be interesting. So I didn't have specific questions. I thought it was important to ask about Chad, though, you know, and what's, what's Chad's role in her life? Is she still in love with them? And I mean, she kind of answered that, right? I'm glad Keith brought that up. Yeah.

You know, that she's still married to him. She still first to him as her husband, right? She sees, she believes that they're both going to be exonerated. She has visions about being exonerated. And that, by the way, gets back to this idea of solipsism. Here we go. I love it. Being falsely accused, being falsely accused and exonerated.

Like this, there's, one of the things that was interesting about this interview is that Keith kept trying to interject a certain measure of reality and facts into the conversation. But she was not to be deterred by facts. She kept, you know, resorting or reverting back to this solipsistic world of that she's falsely accused. I mean, you know, she sat through a trial for weeks with evidence after evidence, after evidence showing that she was guilty. And yet here she is, still in denial, willing to potentially embarrass herself with another trial, with more facts that are going to be against her.

She's a convicted murderer. And she tells Keith Morrison, you know, I was falsely accused. None of that is factual. None of that is real. I'm going to be exonerated someday, as will Chad, right? And that's pretty crazy. That's pretty, you know, like not to acknowledge one fact, not to acknowledge one bit of evidence that might be true,

that's pretty crazy. That's pretty solipsistic. So that goes beyond narcissism. Right. This is like, it goes beyond delusion. It goes beyond delusion. narcissism, we're talking about like creating this elaborate reality and then this elaborate subjective fictional reality and then living in that reality without exception.

Solipsism. There you go. You heard it here first. Just the whole context of the interview too was really key. Like that's the best you got. I mean, she said that a few times. These are some of my favorite. Can't we joke, Keith?

Can't we joke? Can't you take a joke, Keith? Come on. Oh, yeah, because you're being so playful, Lori. Like, of course Keith's going to want to sit here and joke and be lighthearted with you. Because, yeah, you're so inviting right now. so inviting and right and you have such a lighthearted yeah right you're so right you're so jovial of course of course we're just going to joke Lori we're just going to sit here and you know have a good

time I mean it was the whole thing was so so out there that she loved that she was with Keith Morrison I think that I mean that was certainly had to have been a big draw for her when it came to choosing Dateline and Keith Keith is famous. You know, he's a big deal. Right. True. It's a celebrity in front of her.

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You know? Absolutely. I like how she made fun of his voice. This was one of my favorite lines. Right. This is exactly. I was going to say this is one of my favorite. my favorite moments.

You're going to go on with that ominous voice. And Keith goes, you mean like this? And he does like his ominous voice. She's like, yeah, like that. And then what she said after that was great. She said, you're going to go on with that ominous voice. And he's like, he does the voice. And she's like, and then you're going to distort the facts.

I'm like, oh, my gosh, Keith Morrison, man. I don't know. How did he? endure that. I don't think he endured it. Yeah, he was good. No, I take that, but I'm sure it was, I think 90 minutes would have been so frustrating. Just 90 minutes would have been really frustrating if they were able to have, you know,

even just three hours together, four hours. Yeah. Well, when he talked, when he talked, when he talked to us about, about it, he was, he was clearly very frustrated. Yeah. You know, one of the, one of the questions he asked me, so this is a, I guess this is a behind the scenes thing, but one of the questions he asked me was, do you think this is a fool's errand interviewing Lori?

Was this a fool's errand? Was this a set up for failure? And I'm like, yeah, of course, of course it was. Like, I said, I said, yeah, it was a fool's errand. I'm like, you, of course she's not going to. Come on, Keith. Maybe I should have gone full Lori. Keith, come on.

Come on, Keith. Is that all you got? Keith. Come on, Keith. Okay, Keith, seriously. But I did say, I did say, I remember I said something like, yeah, yeah, it was a fool's era. Especially for someone like you who doesn't accept, who doesn't suffer fools easily, which he doesn't. So that was an interesting question.

I mean, yeah, it was a fool's here. And she's delusional and she's a total narcissist and solipsist. So, yeah, good luck with that, right? Like, it was an unenviable position to be, and that's for sure. I thought they really did a good job. Storytelling and contrasting Lori versus Colby. His growth, hybsane, for me, you know, when he said what my mom did to tell you, that's hate.

That's hate. That was a moment for me. That was, yeah, Colby, it is. It was. So, yeah. No, I thought Colby was excellent. You know, I met Colby for the first time in 2021. And I will say, like, he's with his, with his podcast and show,

come so far in terms of his own personal growth. So it's really nice to see Colby, you know, really evolving with, obviously, it's, it's completely tragic, but it's, it's given this tragedy, I'm glad to see that he's, he's really working on it and coming to terms with that. And he's, he's changed so much. He's evolved so much. So, um, so that, you know, that's, that's been impressive, just the amount of work he's done and his willingness to really base this entire situation fully unlike his mother, right? And Keith pointed that out. I think that was one of the best moments of the show, just saying Colby's acceptance

and forgiveness is the complete antithesis of his mother, right? Yeah. What Keith is implying is that Colby hasn't someone broken the cycle of, this type of mental health shown by Lori, which is denial and blame, right, is that Colby is not that person. Colby is not a person who would come from that type of family, right?

He's, he's reasonably healthy, given the circumstances, and accepting and forgiving, right? All the things his mother is not. So if there was going to be some cycle there, I think Colby has certainly taken a lot of strides towards ending it. Yeah. I agree.

It's a good way to think for the show to end on, too. I agree to seeing the difference between Colby and Lori. I think we'll see her on Dancing with the Stars. Can't take a joke, John? John, you can't take a joke? Can't joke around? I can't say that. I thought we were going to be friends here, Lauren.

I mean, you know, I don't even know, a statement like that is so over the top. I can't even process it. Like, she's got multiple life sentences. Nobody's going to go in there and exonerate her. She's not getting out ever. She's got, I don't even know how many years. I mean, clearly she's not getting out. So, no, I don't think she's going to be not dancing with the stars unless they do a prison version,

maybe able to do, you know, dancing with the stars goes to prison, right? You know, which would, it would seemingly be a difficult task given the fact that they're only allowed daylight in there for 90 minutes, but maybe they can get exemptions to bring in the dancing with the stars crew. I don't know. And they can have elaborate sets with whatever, I don't watch that show, but they can have elaborate sets with all the stars dancing with Lori and whoever. But again, it's a, it's a statement that's so divorced from reality, you just have to shake your head and think, what the hell? Like, also it tells you what she values.

Is that really? No, I know that's what she values. Yes. If you get exonerated, is that what you want to do? You don't want to, like, reconnect with your family. I mean, she's not going to get out, but, I mean, just hypothetically, like, that's your goal is to, like, get on dancing with the stars? Jesus loves her most and dancing with the stars. Yeah, it's so over the top.

It's hard to even process. Yeah. It is. Yeah. Well, one thing I will mention, and maybe we can close with this, because this is, I want to draw it back to the bigger picture a little bit. Not that her looks aren't important. They're just, I didn't really, there wasn't a lot there.

that I didn't, that I could comment on. But this idea of her mission, I think part of the reason she thinks she's going to get exonerated has to do with, she talked about this with Colby, she talked about a little bit about it in the interview. This has been the common theme and thread since you and I started talking about this case, and that is this mission of gathering the 144,000 and leading the new. Jerusalem, right? And she talked about that a little bit again. She said, one day, my mission will be revealed to everyone. Right. And so I think that's part of this whole idea of, I think that's the

one thing that gives her hope is that she feels like the second coming is still imminent, even if she's in prison, and somehow that that'll remedy all of this, that she'll be freed, she'll be exonerated, that Jesus will, you know, will take her to glory or whatever she thinks, take her to, you know, the New Jerusalem with Chad, and all will be well. Yeah, the prison walls will crumble. Right. And so I think that's part of this whole delusion. This part of the solipsism is that she really clings to this idea of mission tightly.

And it gives her some measure of hope. and it makes her feel like no matter what she did, she'll be forgiven and everything will be resolved and makes sense. And so even if you murder your kids and are involved in the murders of a bunch of other people, that somehow it doesn't really matter if you're invested in this larger mission of, you know, the second coming and the new Jerusalem. And I think that's what she really believes. Whether Chad does or not, I don't know, but she does.

Yeah. Thank you. For those that watched my members only live on YouTube, you guys already know, but my brother passed away this week, I guess technically last week since it's Sunday night a few days ago. And I guess I just want to be honest and share that here because I know people, a lot of people know. So thank you everyone for your kindness and for your compassion and thank you, babe. for your kindness. I know that John, I'll just say this, like a little bit. My brother was surrounded by family in his hospital room at the very end.

And we've always had a tradition in our house to, you know, it was a silly tradition, but we would go around on each other's birthdays and say what we liked about the person. And of course, you know, Jamie wasn't going to have that opportunity. his next birthday, so we just decided to do it one last time. And John, you were on FaceTime and just thank you for what you said about him and for loving my brother too. And I just want to tell everyone, everyone's kind of been with us through this journey. I remember we went live the night his accident happened, which was a long time ago. And there was a lot of hope for a long time.

And then the past, I'd say it's probably been six, seven months. There hasn't been enough hope. There hasn't been as much hope, and I haven't been knowing how to share that with everyone. But this was a sudden decline that was not expected. And I just happened to be there. I was taking care of my mother and Jamie and doing a Mormon stories episode in Salt Lake when I started getting the text about the quick decline. My brother was able to be a donor. I believe that there was a recipient ready right away to receive his liver.

I know that was one thing. And yeah, so I also want to share that. And yeah. So we typically, we were going to go live yesterday on YouTube, you and I after we watched Daywell. And it was sort of like that rushed anxiousness and deadline-oriented sort of. of feeling when we're about to prepare to kind of go live and I didn't like it. So I said to John, because I know it's, you know, I went on another podcast today and I did a members only live. And I think it was just the feeling that came with like, we've got to prepare. We've got to get

childcare. We've got to go. We've got to watch all a dateline. We've got to have not like, I just didn't want that feeling. And so I told John yesterday, um, know I didn't want to go live on YouTube, but I wanted to share with everyone what was going on. And so that's why we're here. And then funny enough, now we're on video, as you point out, which does feel a little bit more formal. But it's not the same angst. You know what I'm talking about, right, babe, right before going live, the stress, we've gotten better at it, but it can be super stressful and anxious to go live on. Yeah. It's so yeah, it's a little bit of a different experience with a live chat and a live audience for sure. Yeah. Not that we don't love it when we get

there, but there is a lot of, there can be tension in the Matthias home right before a live hidden hour. Right. And I'm going to be really honest. It's not all rainbow and butterflies right before a hidden hour live. Well, people should know too that our lives are not scripted. So part part of the tension is we don't really have a script or a, uh, uh, uh, an outline that we're working with, we just kind of talk. And so that can be a little stressful because sometimes Lauren wants to, we'll talk briefly before we go on. She wants to talk about certain things and I want to talk about other things.

And so I think part of the stress is just not the uncertainty of not knowing what we're going to really discuss and how we're going to discuss it and kind of that makes it in a way. I think that makes it a little more creative because we don't know. but on the other hand, it could be a little more stressful. And that's why I just yesterday think you ever in front or something, I was like, this was not the energy. It was it was not a hidden hour energy. I was wanting.

So that's why I did the members only on YouTube live instead and just and why we're here now. Yeah, I'll just, I just want to, you know, mention that about your brother. It's just a remarkable guy and no doubt the word. world will be a different place without him in it. It'll be a worse place to be, I think, without him. So he's going to be missed. Yeah. He made grand, wonderful things happen on a big scale, on a grand scale. So the world is a sadder place with him. him. He helped a lot of people and yeah, he was magical. I feel like our gems are friends to some degree. A lot of gems we have gotten to know and we have a wonderful community.

But I feel like our community, you know, that we've developed some real friendships with our community that are real and valid. Absolutely. Yeah, I believe we're friends. So thank you everyone. Thank you. Solipsism. You heard it here. Solips. Solips. Solips. All right. Thanks so much. Good night. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you. Bye-bye. So if you are interested in watching this video or to hear the full hour and 20-minute conversation about Lori's interview with Keith or to join the conversation, we actually have over 100 comments on the episode on Patreon,

thoughts from our gems. Head to patreon.com slash hidden true crime. We hope to see you there, and thank you to those who support us over on Patreon. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocall. It's why you get endless robocall. and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in.

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