Hidden True Crime - Robert Telles' Wife, Ex-Wife, & Mother Beg Jury for Mercy: Dr. John Analyzes Penalty Phase

Episode Date: August 31, 2024

Court TV Interview with Matt Johnson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1dZ5I_OLUQ Lauren Matthias was a television reporter for a decade and has followed the Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell case since 2019. She and her husband, Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Court TV Interview with Matt Johnson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1dZ5I_OLUQ Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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The jury unanimously finds a murder was committed by means of lying in wait. The jury unanimously finds the murder was committed by means of elder abuse. After two and a half days of deliberation, the jury in the Robert Talis trial finally, finally reached a verdict. guilty. We were on pins and needles. As people that have been following this case, the very beginning, we had predicted, even on our podcast episodes, that this might be the shortest deliberation in the history of all histories of us covering trial because the evidence towards Robert Tellis being guilty seems so compelling, including DNA under the fingernails of the victim, including video of the apparent murder. But we were very mistaken. This delusorynobling, this delirons.

deliberation of the verdict took much longer than any of us suspected, which caused for a lot of suspense and worry and concern about justice. As the verdict was delivered, Tullus shook his head. Tellus was faced with three sentencing options. The first one is 50 years in the Nevada Department of Corrections Facility with the possibility of parole after 20 years. Then there was a life sentence with chance for parole after 20 years, and the maximum sentence was life without the possibility of parole. In this trial, the sentencing phase began immediately after the guilty verdict was handed down, and so that meant victim impact statements happened. All three of Jeff Garman's siblings spoke, and we learned a lot more about who Jeff Garman was on a personal

level. They all spoke about what kind of family man he was, how much he loved his nieces and nephews, and how much they love Jeff and how their lives will never be the same again since this loss. While John and I have spoken and dedicated a whole episode to Jeff Garman's work in true crime and in investigative journalism and uncovering what is hidden and how much we admired him and his work, we learned a little bit more about his personal life

and really saw the human that Jeff was during this time. Three women then were brought in for the defense. Interesting moment when Tellus his wife came in to testify for him and not just his current wife, but also his former wife and then his mother. Both his wife and former wife spoke about what a great dad he was. I did notice that they didn't necessarily talk about what an incredible husband Robert Tellis was, but they all spoke about the wonderful father he was to their children and how hardworking he is. His mother spoke about Robert Tellis being a young boy and what it was like raising him when she was only 18 years

old and how ambitious he was. She also explained that he had to become the man of the house at a very early age. At the end of his mother's testimony, she actually pleaded with the jury to consider giving him parole because his children are young and she wants Robert Tellis to be a part of his children's lives. So after the victim impact statements and hearing from Robert Tellis's family and his former and current wife, the jury was then faced. with the penalty phase, which means that they're going back again to assess a sentence for Robert Tell Us. And during this time, while we waited anxiously for this sentencing to come down, Dr. John and I had a conversation about the guilty verdict about the sentencing and what that

means for a person like Robert Tell us. Take a listen. All right. Dr. John is in the house. What is going on? You've been watching? Yeah. Well, so first thing is we're going. going to try to get some jurors that we can interview because I'm going to be fascinated by the deliberation process. And it seems to me in retrospect that maybe they were going through all of the evidence again fairly meticulously. And maybe that's why it took so long. But I'll be curious to see if it was something else. Was it was it one juror or a couple jurors that that hung the other jurors up that believed in the conspiracy? So I think we should try, we're going to try to get some

jurors and do some interviews there to kind of figure out what went on in that room behind closed doors. I think that'll be really interesting. I agree. In the end, they came back with guilty, but it took them about three days longer than I thought. Yeah. Right. I don't know the total hours they deliberated, but I mean, I thought it would be, I thought it would be like daybell that they'd come back quickly and it was not daybell. So the jurors definitely took their time, which was interesting because I don't, I don't recall a case quite like this in terms of such compelling evidence from start to finish. So it was a little confusing, but.

So where do you want to start? I mean, I'm so intrigued by the victim impact statements. We heard from his wife. We heard from his ex-wife. We heard from Jeff German's family, which you wrote me, text me during that time and said it's so sad.

You were heartbroken. Yeah. I said that, you know, watching the victim impact statements, it always reminds me of why we do this. It's always tragic and heartbreaking, but from our perspective, I think it reminds us of why this is important work and why we do this, because ultimately, I'd like to think that our work is about justice and giving a voice to the victims and seeing things that other people aren't necessarily seen to help with cases or, you know, finding some things that are hidden.

or adding a perspective that might be useful for justice or for victims and their families. Obviously, those moments put a human face on everything, including when Tellis' family members spoke, including his mother. You know, it's a reminder there that the Draskovich, who's the defense attorney, said that too, that it reminds us that this is about a web of a network of human beings that have all suffered, you know, some negative consequences because of one person's actions. It's a reminder of why the community is mourning the loss of Jeff German and why it's so heartbreaking and just that he was a very involved person with his family and his siblings and their kids

and he loved them and spent time with them and apparently he loved sports. and he was a fearless reporter, right? I mean, there were so many things to like about him, and I think it really allowed us to get a better feel for him, too. So I'll start with that. It reminded me of the importance of his life and how he mattered, not just to so many people, but to the community and how he did really important work.

And in the end, he was punished for that he was murdered for that work. So it certainly really brought him to life. And I agree. And then during the trial, we heard from his neighbors who found him. And he had been their neighbor for 20 years. And I think also it showed what a good neighbor he was. They were heartbroken. They cared about him. They were friends. He was he took care of his family. He took care of his neighbors and his community. And then he took care of his, well, he took care of his neighbors. He took care of his community. He was a very caring giving man. He was very passionate about many things. And I think that came through. He was passionate about his work. He was passionate about sports. He was passionate about his family, his siblings, you know, and their children. And that, you know, so that was very, very touching to me.

During the victim impact statements, we learned a little bit more about him, too, about his childhood, being the man of the house at a very young age. His work ethic, and I use that in quotes, was highlighted by, everyone, his wife, his ex-wife, his attorney. There's, you know, that was interesting, his mother, that was a trend. What did you notice and learn about Robert Tellis a little bit more? Yeah, yeah. I thought it was really interesting. You know, it's, I sometimes talk about how when I do interviews with, especially with criminals, sometimes with family members, oftentimes. So when I, when I do interviews with felons in a jail or a prison, a lot of times they'll say things they don't

want to say. They'll make statements that they think aren't revealing, but they are. And the same thing is true of family members. So in forensic psychology, those are called collateral interviews. I don't love that term because it sounds like collateral damage. I guess there is some collateral damage in the sense that everyone's affected by a criminal's actions. But this is an example. of how I think people say and do things that they don't necessarily intend, that they can have negative repercussions. And so, like, when you think about what his first wife and his ex-wife and his mother all said, so those are the three people that spoke on his behalf, you know, they're obviously trying to put him in the best possible light. They're trying to plead with this jury

to give him life with parole. And And in order to do that, they have to make a compelling case about why he's a great person and how he should be released after a certain finite period of time when he's still alive, presumably. But you have these moments where these people are saying things that don't really work in his favor. For example, this talk about how ambitious he is, I can understand how in a normal context that would be something that people might see as a positive quality. And sure, it can be a positive quality. but it also happens to be a quality that led to the murder.

People are just trying to describe them, but they don't understand it in some ways that they're undermining their case. I often talk about Macbeth. People know me. They're like, yeah, I know you talk about Macbeth a lot. One of the most obvious reasons that Macbeth kills the king is because he's ambitious. So ambition is like the heart and soul of the motivation of so many murderers.

And to get up on the stand and say, hey, you know, don't let this, you know, let this guy go early because he's such a lovable guy. And then you say he's so ambitious and he's such a hard worker. I mean, normally, yeah, those can be really positive qualities for a normal person, but not for someone who's willing to resort to murder to realize his ambition. And his ambition was to be this politician, as the prosecutor pointed out, to be a politician whose career was ruined or thwarted. by Jeff German. So I think in that context, you have these people that clearly are advocating for him and love him.

They're saying contradictory things that aren't going to help them. And maybe it's just my job. Maybe this is what I'm trained to look for. But in terms of my analysis, when you say things about TELUS, like he's ambitious, he's super hardworking, he would do anything to get ahead, essentially, that one of the things that his current wife said

is that he was a great planner that he planned this trip design and every detail was accounted for, right? Like, she's saying things that she sees as assets, but in a way they're not in the sense that, like, okay, remember I talked about the last two shows, I talked about how I think there's his obsessive-compulsive features that he has.

And that goes hand in hand with this idea of planning. And also, like, when you say that someone's a great planner and the prosecution is laid out this case of how this was great plan. It turned out not to be great planning because you got caught. But being a great planner when you commit a murder is not necessarily a great, it's not something you want to say when you're advocating for someone to get out of prison early. So you have ambition, the planning part, which to me kind of goes hand in hand with my analysis of obsessive compulsive disorder. you have these moments that these people are talking about this stuff

that aren't really going to help him. I don't know if the jury's going to see that. But if I'm going to release someone, I don't want to, I don't early who committed murder, I don't want to think this is a super ambitious person with the fragile ego who's a brilliant planner and hard worker who's going to get out and do it again, right? Like it doesn't.

You know, you know who else is action-oriented? ambitious, Lori Valo. Right. Just saying. Right. His ex-wife said, quote, he has a lot of drive. Here's what she said, quote, he has a lot of drive. Quote, he can get anything done if he chooses to. If he decides to go in that direction.

Okay, great. Yeah, he got murder done. He got him done. Thankfully, he got murdered done because he's got a lot of drive. And as his current wife said, a lot of ambition. I mean, yep, you're right. Those are exactly the reasons he committed murder. So those were things that they thought were positive,

but in reality, they completely, to me, at least, they completely undermine the position of what I want to hear from someone, if you're asking for early releases. I want to hear empathy, compassion. I don't want to hear connection to other people, right? I don't want to hear about how ambitious someone is because that may or may not be a good quality, you commit a murder.

And certainly, like, if you think about Macbeth, you know, yeah, he wanted to kill the king because the king was getting in a way of his assent to power. And that's ambition. That's like one of the oldest motives in Western literature for committing murder. And so you've got these people up there saying, hey, man, he's ambitious. Isn't that wonderful? Well, no, because it led to murder. So no, it's not wonderful.

Right? So I think that if you really listen to people, the lesson here for me is, and it's my job, is if you really listen closely to what people are saying, they'll say stuff that they don't necessarily mean to say, and they'll say stuff that also really helps you understand their perspective. And in this case, it really helps us understand, tell us a little bit better and a little more than we might have expected. And same thing with his mother, by the way.

We haven't even talked about his mother. Let's talk about his mother. Rosa Anaya basically makes a she made a similar argument. She says, you know, my son, he was the eldest child. She had him when she was 18. He had two other siblings. Three and six years later.

When he was 13, the mother got a divorce. And, quote, became the man of the house. She went back to work. He took care of his siblings. He fed them. He put them in the bed. These are near quotes. he went out and got a job picking chili for money. This is an El Paso, Texas.

He was paid $2 a bucket. It was very brutally hard work. And I'm going to make inferences here, but when a child is put in that position, the child is essentially parentified. The child becomes like a parent. The child becomes like the other spouse. And the child is taking on responsibilities

that they shouldn't take on necessarily. It's a burden for that child. It creates undue and unnecessary responsibilities and expectations. And this, again, if we want to understand, tell us, this is starting to help us form a picture. And again, the mother, you know, the mother who loves him dearly is saying these things innocently without understanding what she's doing. But what she's doing, essentially, is throwing her son under the bus inadvertently. And the reason she's doing that is because she's saying, she's saying this child had all these, you know, unfair expectations placed upon him that he couldn't meet, that no child could ever meet.

He was forced into the role of an adult, essentially, at 13, running the house, taking care of siblings, feeding them, right? He had all of these expectations. And I think probably because he didn't ever totally fulfill him, I mean, no 13-year-old really can. He spent the rest of his life trying to, and he probably didn't feel love, by the way, completely, in the sense that his mother, when a parent puts a child into that spouse position, they'll never completely fulfill it. He can't be a spouse. And so whatever the expectation there is, that child is not going to meet it.

I think Tell has spent a lot of his life trying to fulfill that expectation, whatever it was, that unrealistic expectation. He wanted to be that provider. He always wanted to be that perfect provider. He wanted to feel loved as a child. He didn't want to be loved as a pseudo-spouse. He wanted to be loved as a child unconditionally. And you have a childhood here where there's all these conditions.

You're going to go work and pick chili for $2 a bucket, right? You're going to provide for the family. You're going to take a... But it's not allowing him to be a child. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you, from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers.

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Discover your true age today. So you have very much this loss of innocence, I think, at probably at a fairly early age. Also, it's easy to imagine that the divorce wasn't amicable. obviously the father apparently just left. And I would imagine that there were problems in that relationship. So he probably didn't have a good role model for a father. And there was probably conflict in the marriage.

So on top of all of this other stuff, this desire to kind of put him in a spouse a role and the fact that he's prerentified, you probably have a lot of conflict in that home, a lot of dissension, maybe, you know, probably some potentially some domestic, violence, I could imagine. And you have a father that sounds like, you know, who knows what, that he leaves early. He's not invested in his family, obviously. So there's a lot of issues

even prior to age 13 when he steps into that parental role. Would he also struggle, though, if his dad did simply leave, that has to affect him too. Yeah, for sure. If the dad walks out, or, you know, if the dad walks out on him, does he feel like he didn't live up to some expectations too and that's why his dad left him? I mean, I'm totally... Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's all of that. You know, I mean, it would be, at the very least, he probably feels like his father,

maybe he feels like some of the reason his father left is because he, because of him. And he probably doesn't, you know, he probably never felt completely loved and nurtured by his father and his mother to some degree too. One of the things his mother said that really stood out to me was, she said, quote, he was always very protective of me.

Ready for this? He was always very protective of me. He came to my rescue. He came to her rescue. Like, what? He's the child. He's not supposed to come to your rescue. You're supposed to come to his rescue.

You're supposed to protect him. I mean, these roles are reverse. And it's very hard for a child that essentially is entrusted with protecting siblings and a parent. It's very hard for that child to feel unconditioned. I think that unconditional love is something that this, the tell us chased his whole life. And I think he was probably particularly sensitive to criticism and to any negative feedback. And that almost definitely played into what happened here. Do we feel that Jeff perhaps gave away, Jeff German took away his ability to provide and then he snapped?

So when he feels Jeff took away his ability to provide, did he say, snap. I think that's part of it. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of elements that came together here, but certainly a major one was yes, that he was in this role as a 13-year-old, a provider. And his mother, you know, one of the things that happens in that situation is that when he feels like he has to provide and that's threatened, then yes, he's going to, there's more likelihood that he will under threat that he'll act out with violence. So given his role as a 13-year-old and 14-year-old and 50, right, most of his childhood as provider, that became a big part of his identity. And that was a role he really was invested in in a role that he spent a lot of time

performing in that role. And so I think, yes, you know, when he lost that election and he lost his job at the public administrator's office, yeah, I think all of that was now being threatened to some degree. Lynn is asking why his forehead is always scrunched. Let's just put it this way. He's no Chad Daybell in court. He has some very extreme facial expressions. I do understand now when he originally started crying, I didn't see his family coming, you know, and so I understand that he did show emotion with his family. But any thoughts on the expressions he was showing in court? A lot of it, a good chunk of it would have to be anxiety. I think he was super anxious. You know, I mentioned in our last

show that I felt there's like this desperation with him. So when he was on the stand and appealing to the jury, I felt like that he wanted them to believe. He knew what he was saying wasn't truthful, but he wanted them to believe himself so much. It was almost like he wanted to reach across to the jury booth and just kind of shake them and say, you believe me, right?

Like, you know I'm right. For him, you have this turmoil between like controlling himself and feeling out of control. And, you know, like, there's this desperation where he just so badly wants to be believed. And yet he knows he has to restrain himself to be believed. So I think you get all these facial expressions and the furrowed brow and like the just all of it is largely a result of the anxiety that comes from this desperation he feels to control the jury knowing he can't control the jury. So it's this control, but also in a context where he has a lack of control. I know you need to go soon.

So I'm going to jump. Dr. Jay has a great question. Many people have asked that question. Will he be a risk? Will he be repentant in 20 years? But I know we only have limited time and I want to read this. There was a Rolling Stone article or profile on Talas. From the Rolling Stone profile,

Robert's father, Raymond, served two terms in the El Paso City Council. He later lost his status in the community and nearly his freedom. for his role in an attempt to bribe public officials to win a contract for a 40 million county debt refinancing. After pleading guilty in 2008, Raymond received probation, but his fall from grace was sealed. So I just want to add that this is a very interesting aspect too. Not only did we know that his father had a fall from grace as a politician, now we know that his father also sort of left and abandoned Robert Talas and that he became the man of the house.

In some ways, do you think that this added to his idea that he was going to sort of take up the torch where his dad failed? And then I just find it fascinating how like history or generations repeat itself. It's like this sort of generational repeat, generational trauma repeat right here.

Yeah, I know. I think you probably have some of that going. on you and I haven't really had a chance to dive deeply into his history and his past too much. So I'm a little hesitant to comment too much. Today was really kind of the first glimpse. Some people have reached out to us. Yeah, people from his childhood have reached out, some friends, you know, neighbors. We may or may not be able to talk to them.

But yeah, so do you think, but that is an interesting aspect. And I wanted to throw that out there. We'll comment on that later. do you think he could be repentant, or do you think he could be a risk in 20 years, if that's a sentence? As we await his sentence right now, your job is to assess risk factor in people, so. I think the prosecutor did a good job of kind of summing that up and said that he's still dangerous because he really hasn't. He's dangerous because he attacked the reputation of so many people. He was willing to sacrifice, according to, you know, I agree with this, according to,

Chris Hamner, he was willing to sacrifice the reputations of so many people to save himself, essentially. But the larger point is that, at least as of now, he hasn't really learned. And he, as far as we know, unless he makes a statement, he's not remorseful. He clearly has some, and again, I'm not diagnosing here, but he clearly has some narcissistic features. So just to clarify, there's a difference between features of someone having narcissism and a diagnosis of narcissism. But the point is that I think he's really too self-absorbed and he probably, at least at this moment, he probably thinks that he didn't do this or he's convinced himself he didn't do this, that he was wronged by all these people. And so in that sense, he doesn't have remorse. He

hasn't learned. And the dangerousness is that he gets out of prison, even in 20 years, that he ruminates for 20 years about how he was wronged and then he gets out and he has these grudges. and he wants to settle some scores. And that's kind of what Chris. Chris Hamner didn't say that exactly, but he implied it. And he certainly, Chris didn't say that one of the, probably the biggest score he would have to settle

would be Chris Hamner's score, you know? So, I mean, you know, Chris, the prosecutor doesn't want to have to look over his shoulder every day if somebody like Telas is released. But that's largely what would happen, at least given where he's at now. I mean, one of the defense, arguments was that he can be rehabilitated, that he's a smart guy with a strong work ethic,

and that's how you become rehabilitated. And that's not accurate either. You become rehabilitated when you acknowledge that you engaged in wrongdoing and that you have some empathy and remorse and you fully take responsibility for your crimes. That's how you become rehabilitated. And none of that exists at the moment. He could exist, you know, five, ten years down the road, but it doesn't now. So that doesn't mean that he can't change or he won't change. He could, you know, being behind bars for years does induce a certain amount of reflection. So it's possible, you know, he could he could even potentially enter some therapy groups in prison.

I don't know. I wouldn't count on that at the moment. But the risks exist because he has a lot. taken responsibility for his crimes. He doesn't seem to be particularly empathic. He was willing to throw so many people under the bus who were innocent and have nothing to do with this, that he feels wrong. He may have some grudges. The defense pointed out that he has no previous criminal history, which isn't quite accurate. He was arrested for domestic violence at least one time. So he has engaged in violent behavior before.

Oh, there's some other things. Go read that Rolling Stone profile. It's fascinating. A little looks like he did graduate law school from UNLV, but he left not on great terms because he was accused of perhaps inappropriate contact with a female student. So it just continues. Yeah. So, but I mean, does he have a criminal record? Apparently not. And, but it doesn't, it's not, I mean, a criminal record is going to certainly increase

risk for somebody in his position. but it's not determinative. It's not the final element that would determine whether he's dangerous. Also, as the prosecution pointed out, I think there's a basic social contract. Well, number one,

there's a social contract in our communities that you don't murder people. So that's the first one. But also, you know, freedom of the press, right, and the ability to write and speak and say what you want without the threat of being murdered,

is so important. Yes. It's so important. And obviously, you and I operate under that, under those protections. If we didn't have those protections, you and I wouldn't be doing this because, you know, we don't want people to show up at our door with guns and threatened to kill us, right? So, I mean, that in and of itself, I think, part of what the jury needs to consider here is the fact that, obviously, the prosecution talked about this is an unusual circumstance in the sense that because

someone says something that is supported by evidence that you don't like, you can't go murder them. And so I think part of this is not about rehabilitation or even retribution. It's about sending that message that human beings can, for the most part, I mean, unless you're harming people, can say and do things because of free speech in the community without fear of retribution or without fear of being harm. And so I think that should be a part of this decision here. After my conversation with Dr. John, the jury came back and they sentenced Robert Tellis to life in prison with the possibility of parole after 20 years. Now, if you remember

at the beginning of this episode, I shared the three possibilities for a sentencing. The first one, a minimum of 50 years with the possibility of parole after 20 years. That middle sentencing option was life, life in prison, but with the possibility of parole after 20 years, and the maximum sentence, life in prison without the possibility of parole. So clearly, the jury, who came back, by the way, a lot faster for this penalty phase than they did for the guilty verdict. They did not deliberate long on this at all, but they came back with that middle sentencing option, not the minimum, but not the maximum. Admittedly, I was a little deflated after hearing that a convicted murderer could actually be up for parole after 20 years and that he could actually go free. Robert Tellis is now 47 years old, so essentially at 67 years old, he could walk out after brutally killing someone and first degree murder. But I do realize now, interestingly enough,

CORE TV just did an interview with Robert Tellis after the guilty verdict and after his sentencing from prison reporter Matt Johnson, who has appeared on our program before and in my lunch lives while reporting on different trials. He interviewed Robert Tellis after the guilty verdict and the sentencing was done. And from behind bars, this is what Robert Tellis tells Matt Johnson. I'm trying to prove my innocence and trying to get home. Did you kill Jeff German? I did not certain now.

He lets Matt Johnson know that he is not guilty and that he is innocent and that the jury got it wrong after those two and a half days of deliberation. So I have to think to myself, if that is the attitude that Robert Tellis is going to continue to have and that he shows no remorse and he continues to say I didn't do this crime, I think it's highly unlikely that a parole board will allow him to go free after 20 years. But it is a possibility, and that is the sentence that the jury chose. As for Dr. John and myself, we are very grateful that justice was served for Jeff Garman, and we hope that journalists can feel safe sharing what's hidden that the public deserves to know. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records

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