Hidden True Crime - RUBY FRANKE/ JODI HILDEBRANDT CASE: Answering your questions, including: "Were Jodi and Ruby in a romantic relationship?" "Is Kevin Franke Responsible?"

Episode Date: February 20, 2024

August 30, 2023--a brave 12-year-old boy escapes a house of torture in Southern Utah --rescuing himself and his 10-year-old sister. A neighbor feeds the emaciated boy and calls 911. The children's mother YouTube Celebrity Ruby Franke, and Ruby's therapist Jodi Hildebrandt, are arrested and charged. This episode was originally recorded live in September, 2024. In this episode WE ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS: Is Kevin Franke, the children's father, responsible? Were Jodi and Ruby in a romantic relationship? Dr John Matthias leads the discussion. Dr John is a clinical and forensic psychologist. Dr John Matthias and reporter Lauren Matthias, who are husband and wife, have been covering this story since the arrests, and will continue to bring you the very latest in this heartbreaking story. Thank you for subscribing to our podcast and to our YouTube channel HIDDEN: A TRUE CRIME PODCAST is: CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY REINVENTED. Join us on a journey into the darkest recesses of the human mind and the unconscious motivations that drive human behaviors in order to understand the world and ourselves. WEBSITE: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ TO SUPPORT: https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Lately, I've been trying to be more intentional about what I wear, intentional about everything, just choosing pieces that feel effortless, still put together, timeless, but also not overthinking it every morning. It's why I keep going back to quince. Their pieces just make getting dressed easier and I feel so classy. I feel elevated. The fits are flattering. The fabric is really high quality. Everything is wearable day to day. I actually got this really, really, beautiful yellow V-neck midi dress from them, and I paired it with some Italian leather sandals. It's one of those outfits that just works. It feels polished but still comfortable. It's exactly what I've been looking for. What surprises me, though, is the quality for the price.

Quince uses premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, ui ncee.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. I am actually in front of right now the house of Jody Hildebrandt in southern Utah, Ivan's Utah. This is where a 12-year-old boy escaped out of a window with duct tape around his wrists and around his ankles, ran to a neighbor's house and asked for food and water because he was malnourished. This is the house where Ruby, Frankie's

two children were being held a 10-year-old girl and a 12-year-old boy, a very brave 12-year-old boy. I'm going to flip around so you can see this house and so I can tell you a little bit more about what went on here. The 12-year-old boy escaped, ran to a neighbor's simply asking for water. and food because of the boy's condition. So he had severe deep lacerations. He had long-term medical stay. By the way, this happened August 30th because of the depth of his lacerations, not from the duct tape, from rope being tied around him. So they mentioned that he has duct tape on his wrists and on his ankles. But then they state in the probable cause that because of deep lacerations from rope being tied up that he had a longer medical stay. Now, when they

got to the house, police got to the house, they found the 10-year-old girl, the Frankie's little girl, Ruby's little girl. She was also malnourished. The reason that Jody Hildebrandt was charged with six counts of aggravated child abuse is because they saw that the children were in her direct care, in her house, back here, her $3 million house. Did I mention this house was worth $3 million? I can't even remember if I did. Three million dollar home, it's listed. Hidden, a true crime podcast. A forensic psychologist and a journalist explore the hidden motives behind unthinkable crimes while examining our deepest fears along the way.

We have a lot to talk about when it comes to Jody Hildebrand in Ruby Frankie, some tea. A lot of people are mentioning the possibility of a romantic relationship. Jody and Ruby, that is coming. So stay tuned. We have plans to talk about all of your comments and questions. A hidden true crime, we have a psychologist with us. So we're going to delve deep into that speculation. I received this last night, thanks to Amazon.

This is Jody's book. So we'll be talking a little bit about her book as well. Her book, by the way, the title is, you are not enough. So I'm particularly... He's got a lot of fun with this title in our house. Yeah, I love the double negative. I think that's a real hit. That's a real crab pleaser when you use a double negative.

In fact, I almost wrote to Oprah and said you should change the title of your book to you are not, not your best self or whatever her. I don't know. I'm sorry. I don't know Oprah's books that well, but it seemed to me like, you know, this was catchy enough that I think a lot of people should start changing their book titles. Yeah, I've got like, the body doesn't, doesn't keep the score. or sociopath, not not next door. So Jody's book is, you are not not enough. You are what you eat.

You are what you don't. You are not not what you eat. Something interesting about what I actually read it this Saturday. You know, it's amazing. You can't get me to read a lot of things, but I've read every Chad Dayable book, and I've read Jody Hildebrens book, and I've read Melanie Gibbs book, and I've read Adam Cox's book. I guess that's my thing.

Flip it around. I want to show you who wrote a recommend for her book. It's at the very bottom. Well, why don't you read it? Okay, Hiram Smith. I'm going to tell you who that is. Hiram Smith is the co-founder of Franklin Covey and was the CEO. Does anybody know who Franklin Covey is?

If you don't, let's think of it this way. Who used a Franklin planner in the 1990s? I mean, those were all the rage, right? I remember spelling my new laser? I did. You did too? I feel so connected to you. So he is the co-founder, Hiram Smith, of Franklin Covey, who sold Franklin Planners.

And the other co-founder was Stephen Covey. So Stephen Covey is the New York Times bestselling author, the late Stephen Covey. He died after a cycling accident. He is the author of the seven habits of highly effective people. That's a book I haven't read. I'll read Davell, but reading something about being effective. makes me anxious. I read the Covey book, The Seven Habits, by the way.

I mean, it was so popular. I did read it. I do have to report, though. It didn't make me more effective. I mean, it wasn't a total loss, but. Well, Kathleen is a dreadful book. So I'm going to go to Kathleen since I haven't read it. Late 80s.

So anyway, Stephen Covey and Hyron Smith co-founded. Franklin planners took the day planner industry by storm. Completely changed the industry. until cell phones came along and now we don't use them as much. Hyrant Smith's a big deal. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. He's a very big deal. I was a TV reporter in St. George, Utah.

This is where the children were found. John and I actually lived 10 minutes from where the children were found. This is another reason we're so passionate about this case. So Hiram Smith is a prominent figure in southern Utah. He's deceased, 2019. Really? Yeah. I saw that and I didn't need.

even check. Okay, so he was there and then we moved. I did not know that. He also started a boys ranch in St. George, Utah. So he had a therapy ranch for troubled boys. So I have a lot of questions about that. I was hoping to call him next week. I guess that's not happening. But anyway, what did he say about not enough, about the not enough book? Yeah, I feel like maybe there should be another not in there. You are not, not enough? I don't know. He wrote, so interestingly enough, so this is somebody who's quite prominent in the community and in the Mormon community as well, right? And in the St. George community, Southern Utah. I would go to ribbon cuttings where he'd be the main speaker opening up the hospital, speaking with politicians.

So he's the only one. He is the only person who wrote a review for the cover. So that's of interest, right? And so here's what he says. anyone looking for more peace in their successful, busy life, or those experiencing pain, fear, loneliness, disconnection, or any other piece destroying thought pattern must read, You are not, not enough.

It is interesting that, so there's no other, there's no other reviewers but Hiram Smith. And another interesting thing about this book is it has no references. It has no citations. So in other words, you know, If I were to write a book, I'm working on a book. I'm working on a book forever. In my book, there's going to be all kinds, as I'm sure our listeners would expect, I'm going to have all kinds of citations and references to other books and research.

But in Jody Hillabant's book, there's not a single. She actually starts the book with a couple of references to footnotes, but then she doesn't include the citations. I guess it's a little bit of a teaser that she doesn't follow through on. But anyway, that's interesting. So Hiram Smith is really kind of the only reference in person who supports or provides a review of this book. I would wonder what he would say today with that review, unfortunately, you know, we can't call him. So that that is sad.

That, you know, that's sad. I didn't realize that things were letting me know. One bit of tea while I was in St. George and Ivins checking things out recently was that there was a gentleman that. that was called by Jody just days before the children were found about a weekish, a little bit less than a week, to help move boxes in her garage. That's the thing. By the way, I read her book this morning.

She asks people to come and help her move boxes. She talked about it. So this person went over with a friend, and he saw the children. They were not tied up, and Ruby was not there. Then he left and days later, RF escaped. So it's another thing that makes me think these children were in completely in Jody's care long term, even without their mother. The person moving boxes did not see Ruby be there.

Only the children. And he didn't look long at the children and didn't ask who they were because he just assumed they were maybe Jody's grandchildren. John and I last night picked out four or five comments and questions. Thank you for always leaving your YouTube comments. We do go through them. And these are the four we want to discuss from our gems. Anything you want to say before that? Anything about the book?

Or should we just jump in? The book will come after some of these comments. I think we need to leave some time. You're not enough. We'll play a part. This is by small fairy tale. They write, here is a small piece of the puzzle. Ruby donated a large amount of money

for a private school for her kids that her kids went to. This provided cover for her. American Heritage is a Mormon church. affiliated school. My daughter went there. At a 2018 charity auction, they were in the top tier of donations, meaning the Ruby Frankie's work. And the Frankies had a special table reserved for them. And they were praised several times by the principal, and we were encouraged to watch their channel. There was a lot of power at the school. CEOs were there, usually an apostle or two. Community leaders, it would take a significant amount of money to give this praise,

auction items that night went for as close as $80,000 well over their value. When I saw the report that many times police were called to the home and then child services and not get a search warrant, I thought of the power that Ruby gained that night. That's an interesting bit of tea. Thank you as small fairy tales. Thoughts, John? Just that, I mean, it makes sense. It makes sense that there's a political element.

to this scenario. In fact, when this, when this crime first broke, I told, what is it, what is it I told you? Do you remember? The first thing John told me, and I actually shut him down, I was like, don't say that. No, no, no, no. He said, I don't, I don't know if they're going to do a lot of time. I don't know if justice is going to be served for these children, knowing Utah, knowing the system, I'm really concerned. That was the first thing John said to me. I think if the world wasn't looking at this scenario or this crime or this alleged crime, I wouldn't be surprised if they were both would have been released by now. This insight is part of the reason why that would be true.

You know, and that's not to say that I'm sure other states are highly political. And, you know, I mean, this is all intertwined with politics and, right, and the judicial system and money. I mean, so I'm not pointing the finger at Utah, but I think sometimes in small communities that influences maybe easier to obtain. But I don't know. We'll see.

Let's let's. We'll throw that in with the fact that, you know, again, I know I know he's passed away now, but throw in the fact that Jody was supported by someone like Hiram Smith, you know, Franklin Cughey. Right. Both of these women, in other words, had some serious connections, connections without an X. She was able to get probably one of the most prominent members of that community,

certainly one of the wealthiest and most influential members of that community, to write the only review for her book. So clearly there's a political dimension to this scenario. So we'll see. Right. Yeah, and I don't know. I mean, so we haven't confirmed this, but I, so I don't, I don't know if I, no, I shouldn't mention this. No, I don't know what you're going to say.

I'm like, oh. I was going to talk about the, some one of our sources gave us some inside information on the extent of the injuries. Oh, I think you can say that. We've heard from sources very close to this situation that some of the injuries to RF, I won't say the name. but some of the injuries to R.F, the 12-year-old who escaped, that we heard that some of the injuries were bone deep. The restraints and the duct tape had cut to the bone. That's serious. That's serious child abuse. That is not the sort of thing that typically I would expect someone to be released on probation for. But again, you know, if that's true, if those injuries were that severe,

I can't imagine that somebody would get released as soon as Monday, but I don't know. We'll keep our eyes on it. If you put that bit of information with the 911 call that we've all listened to where the neighbor who's let this boy in and he's calling 911 and he's staying calm and there's this moment where you can tell the neighbor breaks down, I can just imagine what RF looked like. I just had a 12-year-old boy show up here at my front door asking for help. He said he just came from a neighbor's house and we know there's been problems at this neighbor's house. He's emaciated. He's got tape around his legs. He's hungry and he's thirsty. Is your door locked?

No, I'm sitting outside with him on the front patio. Okay. He asked us to call the police. So he's very afraid. Okay. And is, are the neighbors out of their home or is anybody looking for them that you can see? No. Her name is Jody Helderbrand and she lives two doors up the street. I don't know Kianna's a home is far apart. So he walked just under a block to get to our house. He rang my doorbell and asked me to call the police. Does he seem to be under the influence of drugs or alcohol? I don't think so, but he's very thirsty and...

Do you need an ambulance? I don't think he needs an ambulance, let the cops decide that, but his ankles are taped up and he won't tell us why. Okay. But he has duct taped around each ankle. Yeah, there's sores around him. I think the good chance he's been... He also... Oh, and he has been around his ankle.

He has been around his ankles, I mean, his wrists as well. Okay, this boy has been, obviously been, I think he's been detained. He's been, he's obviously covered in wounds. Okay. Let's get the paramedics headed over that way, okay? Oh, that's a good idea too. You know, he's talking to 911. He couldn't keep his composure.

He started, he just sort of broke down, and I just picture, in my mind, I picture a gentleman calling 911, staying calm, looking at RF seeing his condition and just, I think that's where the tears came. If you have an injury where bones are showing, that's typically not a good sign. That's a pretty serious injury. We're not talking about just some residual from the duct tape left, you know, some sticky part of the duct tape left on the angles. We're talking about something much more severe.

RF and EF are going to be so damaged emotionally. We agree, Shelley, and let's hope they get some proper help. It broke our heart when the Turpin children were rescued and to later learn that they were put into homes where the foster homes also abused them was just beyond us. So let's hope that with what they've gone through, they will be able to have the help they need. Anything else to that, John? Did you want to bring up, as long as we're talking about some of our sources, did you want to bring up the cellmate? Oh, yeah, interesting information, right?

Who doesn't love a jailhouse snitch? That came out yesterday, right? I mean, that's like my favorite thing in true crime when we've got a jailhouse niche. I'm like, tell me more. Yeah, you take a sip of that iced tea right there. It's lemonade, lemonade. Oh, lemonade. Can we say it's tea tonight?

Okay, true. This is the one night I should have had tea. Right. I had tea during my book club Wednesday night. So let's just say it's tea. Yeah. So anyway, a big fan of jailhouse snitches. Before I tell you, when you talk of jailhouse snitches,

I just want to read what Glenn F said. This means a lot. You showing such real emotion last week, Dr. John, someone in your professional harming, such vulnerable people really got to me. Thank you so much for your compassion. Yeah, thank you. I thank you, Glenn F. I'm passionate about the mental health field. And yeah, it really upsets me when people run a mock in our field and they, they harm people, obviously,

because that's not, that's not why we're here. We're not, we don't do this to harm people or to ruin families or ruin marriages. So, so yeah, thank you. That's, it is, it is a passion of mine. And I'm always, always a bit upset when mental health professionals harm their clients and therefore harm our profession and harm our reputations, all of us in some ways. So yeah, it's maddening. It's maddening what she's done. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers,

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Discover your true age today. Thank you. He truly is so passionate. Someone in comments wrote, oh, John's Venus flytrap is coming out. I'm like, oh, his Venus flytrap is real. He doesn't show it always. But John certainly has a Venus flytrap.

up in him when he's passionate about something. Lori, love jailhouse snitches. So do I. Well, you're in good company. So let's talk about that really quickly. We had someone come out that was housed with Jody. And then after being in, and she didn't know this woman was arrested in St. George for petty theft.

And she asked Jody that night what she had been arrested. for and Jody said, I don't want to talk about it. And she said, okay. Then after Jody left, this woman was then housed with Ruby. Oh my gosh, this woman is like, is her name Deborah? Here we go. Here's the, I'll read. Deborah Monson told Insider. So this is what she said. I do want to ask you some questions, John, about your thoughts on this. Monson was arrested August 31st on Petty theft. And then she spent around an hour with Hildebrandt at the start of her stay in Pergatory correctional facilities.

John has done many assessments at purgatory. I've done many reports at purgatory. Followed by three nights with Frankie in the medical area. As of Thursday, they're still being listed in jail. Monson said she had no idea of who they were at the time and only realized after she left and her family was talking about them on the drive home. She described both Frankie and Hildebrand as, in quote, really tight-lipped, but said she had a lot of time to observe how Frankie behaved. Most notably,

Frankie seemed distressed that she and Hildebrand had been separated. She said in quotes, gosh, how long are they going to keep us in here? And why did they separate me and Jody? Montsey said. Monston said. Frankie said, I can't understand why they separated me and my friend. Friend. Monson said Frankie was interested after she let her know that she was briefly held alongside Hilda Brand. She said, oh, like, what did she say? How did she act?

Did she say anything at all? And she described Frankie as almost childlike in her manner and almost smitten. Smitten is a quote. They used it in the headline. Smitten with Hilda Brandt. Monson told Frankie that Hilda Brent seemed pretty distraught and didn't want to talk about anything.

Jody had obviously been crying. a lot. Montsen said of her time with Hilda Brandt. Her eyes were really red and swollen and kind of squinted. You could hardly see her eyes and she looked very distressed. She said she asked Hilderrant why she was in jail and Hilda Brant looked at her with not a smile, not a frown, but a straight face and said, in quotes, I would rather not say. I said, okay, I apologize. I wasn't trying to invade your privacy, Monton said, and that was everything that was said between us. Monson said Frankie reacted to her account by saying, that's what I thought that she would be like. Monson said Frankie also played mother hen to another woman in their cell, who Frankie believed

was going through drug withdrawal. Frankie was talking the Blakens under her and mothering her, nurturing her, Monson said. Frankie also carried a Bible with her a lot of the time. She kept holding it to her chest and she closed her eyes, Monson said. At one point, Monson said she saw Frankie crying. When she asked her what was wrong, Frankie said, I just miss my. kids. Monson said she doubted Frankie's sincerity, though, saying her emotions seemed to have no depth,

and she seemed completely narcissistic. I just wanted to read that. I don't not know your thoughts about that, John. I don't even know if you've read the whole article, but I really curious your thoughts. Deborah Monson, if you're watching, write us. Get intochuktime info at gmail.com. You want to thank you. I mean, I think she assesses the situation well.

I think that the smitten part is really compelling. I think that Ruby probably is smitten in the same way that Lori Deba was smitten with Chad. I think there is, we'll talk about this a bit later, but I think there is definitely potentially a romantic component there, so there seems to be. So that might indicate that, the smitten part, kind of the fawning, right, the fawning partner that's missing her. But I think also another part of that is that there's some desperation there.

She's desperate to get on the same page with Jody. Obviously, Ruby and Jody haven't really thought through the criminal process very well. And they don't understand that it's pretty common practice. I hope it is in purgatory too, but common practice in most jails to separate co-defendants. And so they can't talk and get their story. straight. So I'm quite sure they're going to do that. But I think there was some desperation here with Ruby wanting to see Jody so they can get on the same page. My guess is they've probably already interrogated both of them. They're probably told very different stories. So that'll be

interesting. But I think that's what I sense the most. I think that on the one hand, Ruby misses her. She wants to see her just because potentially there's some type of romantic partnership there. And secondly, she's anxious and she's somewhat desperate to try to get on the same page with Jody about what happened and what their story is going to be so that they can solidify that and work together. I don't think she's ever been, you know, their business partners, they live together. I don't think she's been separated from Jody at all for probably a year, maybe more than that, maybe a year and a half. So I think there's a bit of panic. here on Ruby's part with the separation.

She can't see her. She can't talk to her. And if this is a cult type situation, then the other component is there's dependency. The Ruby feels very dependent on Jody and needs to see her the way a child would need to see a parent. So I think you have that element too. So I think this is a really interesting story for many reasons

because it shows their possible dynamic and it shows they're emotional, you know, their state of mind and their emotions in jail. A little teaser for things to come later in this live because I'm seeing a lot of things and I want you to know it's on the agenda. A lot of people are mentioning the possibility of a romantic relationship with Jody and Ruby. And so I'm going to tell you guys that is coming. So stay tuned. We have plans to talk about all of your comments and questions when it comes to that.

in my opinion, it is the elephant in the room, and it's not necessarily something the news can cover because it's speculation and not really their wheelhouse, but a hidden true crime, we have a psychologist with us, so we're going to delve deep into that speculation a bit. Yeah, a psychologist who can only speculate so much, but I mean, a little speculation, not too much, though.

Yeah, right. We'll see what we can do. I feel comfortable enough, with the information we have to discuss it. To discuss it, right. So if I felt like there was no basis for this, for this claim, then we wouldn't talk about it. But I think there's enough that we know. I feel comfortable that we can, it's still speculation, but I think it's speculation with some evidence.

I want to touch on this and then we'll read the next comment. The similarities to Lori Debel and Chad Deibel are eerie. this will happen again given the right or wrong set of circumstances. Nothing seems to have changed to protect the vulnerable. And I just want to reiterate one more thing again. I'm digging deep. And we've covered Daibel for three, four years. I have dug deep into everyone involved.

Three and a half years, I guess, it's coming on four years. It's crazy. It's wild. I want to reiterate again. I've talked a lot when it comes to Daibel case. We've talked a lot about the book Visions of Glory and how that affected Chad Daybell and Lori Ball's beliefs. preparing a people conferences that gave chat a platform.

Tom Harrison is Spencer in the Visions of Glory book. And one thing that really concerns me is how they teach visions and dreams. And I'm getting very, very concerned about this group because Jody Hildebrand, that video we were playing last week, she was speaking at the Eternal Core Conference, which is done by Tom Harrison, the one who had the near-death experiences and visions of glory that many of these people consider scripture. I mean, it's all too intertwined. It is so similar.

And these are people that are, they're mingling together. So I can't help but now see a pattern. It's one thing to have, you know, the daybell case was a never, you know, like what in the world? Now that we're seeing two cases of abuse of children, I mean, it was more than abuse with J.G. and Tiley, but it could have been more with R and E too. but I'm getting very, very concerned. Once you start to see a pattern, there's a serious problem. So we're keeping an eye on this.

I don't want to see this again. Okay, next question. This is from Jay Pipes. How was Kevin not being prosecuted to? Seriously, he was well aware and appears on camera, trying to explain away his poor parenting and how he stayed silent during the custody hearing. That's prime evidence of being complicit.

Thoughts. You know, the attorney did interviews this last week, saying he had nothing to do with this. Yeah. The attorney argued that essentially Kevin is isolated up north. So I'm glad we talked about the geographical split earlier because the attorney basically argued that Kevin is up north in northern Utah. And for the most part, Ruby is in southern Utah where the kids are. and he doesn't really interact with the kids or communicate with the kids.

So the attorney essentially said Kevin's a great guy. He's done nothing wrong. He never participated in abuse. Even when CPS came to the house, nothing was ever substantiated. So, you know, the argument is that Kevin's a stand-up guy. He didn't know anything. This was all Ruby. You know, I think that's obviously it's his attorney.

He's going to present the best case he can for Kevin. But my thoughts are based on what we know of eight passengers. and the show they did together that clearly he knew about, I'm sure he knew about some abuse. I don't know about since Jody came into the picture, but let's not call it abuse. Let's call it strict disciplinary measures.

How about that? Whether it rose to the level of abuse, I don't know. Obviously, apparently YouTube thought it did. I think it did, but when you say that, as far as the law goes, too. Yeah, as far as the law goes. As far as the law goes.

As far as child protective services goes, you could argue that, I mean, but then we just, we read that bit of tea about them participating in an auction and giving hundreds of thousands of dollars to a school that has huge influence, political influence, right? Like, so, you know, was CBS in any hurry to really investigate them? They were famous. They had a lot of money. Their kids went to the best schools. They had political clout. They had political influence. I don't know, right?

This is all kind of intertwined. Do I think that Kevin knew more than his lawyer saying, Absolutely. Would there be sufficient evidence to charge him with something? That doesn't, that doesn't seem to be the case. It is interesting that the lawyer did acknowledge that Ruby called Kevin right away. Apparently Ruby was tipped off that the police were coming and she tried to intervene. So her first call was to Kevin, apparently, or she had some contact with Kevin and essentially asked him, I guess she thought he would drive down south, which would have taken hours. she wanted him to help. That doesn't indicate that he's complicit, but I don't, I mean, I don't know.

It's, you know, it's not clear cut here for sure. And actually, you found something interesting on Kevin. I think we should read some of these. You found a set of reviews. Rate my professor. Pre-arrest, right. Some of these are fascinating. So, you know, I think, you know, in trying to look at this situation,

I think sometimes students can be biased, especially if you give them bad grades or you have confrontations with them or if they're not performing well, you know, you're going to always expect a couple of reviews that aren't going to be the greatest. But in this case, you're looking at a lot of reviews that aren't the greatest. So do you want to share some of those? This one I want to read first. This is interesting. This is July 21st, 2022.

And it's actually now been deleted as far as I can tell. But I snagged it before. very strange man. If you don't agree with Professor Frankie once, you are looked past for the remainder of the course. Now, if you've taken a few of his summer courses, he is trying to get you to get involved with Jody Hildebrand. He was renounced as a terrible person at BYU and the LDS Church

and who has severe untreated mental illness, terrible, terrible people. That one is actually interesting. I just want to throw out because this is, again, 2022. July, so a year and two months ago, and this student, alleged student, is bringing up Jody Hildebrand. That's very interesting in the sense that this student would have no reason to bring up Jolie Hildebrand and knows their connection. September 1st, 2022. I truly did not have a great experience in this class. It was an insanely hard class. I take schoolwork very seriously, and I've never had an issue with a professor until now. Our professors are one thing, but downright rude,

dismissive and arrogant is another. Save yourself the misery and take a class with someone else. This is July 2022. He was very rude and mean. He spoke down to his students in a disrespectful manner. July 23rd, 2022. I'm unable to get in contact outside of class. He is very controlling.

And you can only have the same views that he has or you will be looked down upon. He caused me so much stress that I dropped out. June 24th, 2022. Professor Frankie was rude from day one. He does not respect his students. He was always in a bad mood, make class miserable. He would make horrible homophobic remarks and make us students feel incompetent. His classroom felt hostile and like a prison.

June 16th, Kevin is horrible. I cried every day. He's very abusive. This is the word abusive to his students. And we were left traumatized. He had a meltdown last month in front of the class and school did everyone. I tried to contact the dean, but nothing happened. He screamed and yelled at us for using TikTok and went on a rant.

He threw a textbook at me. I'm filing battery charges. He once pulled me by the arm into his office, and he yelled at me for doing a TikTok dance outside the building. He took 10 points off my grade because he saw me doing a TikTok dance outside of class. He said I broke the honor code. He pushes his post. political agenda too much and talks about his kids more than the topic of classes.

We have spoke to many people that were that were in Jody Hilda Brand's Connections course and some people, multiple people that were in there with Ruby. And they do all say what the attorney sort of stated that she separates the males and the females. This is consistent. And even Adam Steed went through this. And that she believes you have to completely disconnect before you reconnect. We spoke to one person who they had to completely separate, live separate places, the husband and the wife. And then when they got back together in the house, they had permission. They had to stay in separate bedrooms first. It was like inch by inch. I mean, so when I heard the attorney, I was like, well,

yeah, I mean, what he's saying is kind of what we've heard that he couldn't see Ruby. Jody had control over her. He had no idea what was going on. He couldn't see the kids because Jody, clearly he's under Jody's spell, according to my professors, and he wasn't allowed to see the kids, and he's in this cold, and he's following protocol. I'm like, well, it makes sense to me. But then these other rate year professor students, I mean, they're saying he's abusive and they're filing battery charges themselves as students. Thoughts Dr. John?

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Yeah, these are public comments. When he teaches, he's a public persona. It's mind-boggling that, you know, I mean, I have to take these as true, I think, for the most part. I mean, maybe some of them are angry students trying to discredit him. But let me reiterate some of the things these students were saying. One student said, he pulled me by the arm into his office to yell at me. Think about that. Like, I don't know, you know, if, so I've been an adjunct professor at UNLV for, I don't know, geez, 20 years, 16, 17 years.

I lost track, but if I pulled a student by the arm, and most of my students have been female, by the way, not, you know, I've had, you know, I've had males as well, but the majority, more than 50% have been female. If I, if I grabbed a female student by the arm and pulled her into my office and yelled at her for anything, I would be never, ever, ever considered again, never work again for UNLV in any capacity whatsoever. Like, I don't know, right, somebody said, that's a song. I don't know how, how does he get away with this? Right. I mean, so if you want to learn about who this guy is, you know, the attorney paints him as a really nice guy. Maybe he is. Maybe these students' comments are way off, but they're public.

He's essentially engaging in potentially criminal behavior here. He's grabbing students. Here's this one. He screamed and yelled at us for using TikTok and went on a ramp. He threw a textbook at me. Again, you can't just throw a textbook at a student. I mean, you know, I don't know how he gets away. If this is, again, if this is accurate, I don't know, these, you know, we haven't confirmed these, but it's troubling.

It's very troubling. This comment about him being rude, not respecting the students being in a bad mood, and making homophobic remarks and making his students feel, I mean, why is he working there? Is he still teaching at BYU? What has BYU done about this? Again, why are people looking the other way with the Frankies all the time? Is it influence? If any normal person, myself included, if any normal professor or person did any of those things, even remotely did any of those things, we would be fired.

And rightfully so. But he apparently can do that without any concern whatsoever, without consequence, and it doesn't seem to matter. So I think if you take these comments seriously, you'd have to question who, this guy is. And you'd have to question his character and you'd have to question his involvement. Again, I always say, if somebody's willing to do something that abusive publicly, then they're probably going to do something worse behind closed doors. So if he's treating his students like this, how's he treating his kids? How's he treating Ruby? So I think there's a lot of concerns there.

What's happening behind closed doors? And will we ever know the truth of that? I don't know, but it's troubling at the very least. It's very troubling. To be continued when we delve into the Frankie family culture. Yeah, right. So what was Kevin's involvement? I don't know. But if you look at the student reviews,

you'd certainly have to wonder what he's done behind closed doors at the very least. Yeah, sure thing. Hey, you sold that car yet? Yeah, sold it to Carvana. Oh, I thought you were selling to that guy. The guy who wanted to pay me in foreign currency, no interest over 36 months?

Yeah, no. Carvana gave me an offer in minutes, picked it up and paid me on the spot. It was so convenient. Just like that. Yeah? No hassle. None.

That is super convenient. Sell your car to Carvana and swap hassle for convenience. Pick up fees may apply. Elephant in the room time. Let's talk. Yeah. As much as you can. We understand you have your limits

because you actually respect your profession. All right. So J.D. Wyatt shared a comment on our YouTube video last week's hidden hour that got 61 thumbs up. Sixty one people like this comment, J.D. Wyatt. In my humble opinion, they state, as an armchair psychologist, we love our armchair psychologist. I'm apt to believe much of Jody's psychopathy is related to her being a closeted lesbian. I don't think that she would be able to properly heal until she admits this to herself. And more importantly, come out of the closet and make amends to all of the people she has abused. Someone responded to that. Can I read that now? Or do you want me to read that later? You can read it. And Mantos wrote in response to J.D. Wyatt, I thought this since day one. and I think it's been a driving force behind everything I've heard and continue to learn about her.

I'm surprised it's not being addressed, as it's likely where her self-hatred stems from. I think it drives her punishing behavior towards others. I also think she was jealous of her niece and again projected self-hatred onto Jesse. And while Jody clearly breached all sorts of ethical violations with Ruby, there is something else going on. given their upbringing in a religion that does not approve of homosexuality. I think it's something worth looking into in this case. And yet no one seems to be talking about it. Oh, we're going to talk about it.

We're talking about it. Yeah, there's a reason our name is hidden. And that's because we talk about these types of things when no one else does. So I agree with their analyses. I think they're right on. Well, Mantis mentioned Jesse. Again, the Mormon stories interview, the compelling Mormon stories interview with Jesse.

And what Jesse stated, can I play that now? Yeah, please play that. Let's play this. And this is why we're delving into this. There is some evidence for us enough to speculate. It's all speculation. Yeah, okay. I've thought that since I was a kid.

That what? That potentially she was queer. And I am queer. So I am for it. I think it's great. It's real great. Waters are warm. But I have no idea. She did, she did say something to me when I was living with her that was very strange because I've known I was queer since I was like seven and it was like experimenting with girls and friends since I was seven or eight. And that was, she knew about that and it was very bad. It was very evil. But then she said something to me. She had this friend, her name's Bev.

She said something to the effect of, yes, being gay is evil and, you know, pleasures of the flesh. yada yada. But if I were to have sexual relationships with my friends, if we were to, like, it would be different because there's a deep emotional connection there, and that's different. And like, we were sitting in someone's living room and she said this and I was just like, what? Yeah, that's called being gay. Like, what do you think gay relationships are like? they are emotional and deep and connective and yeah so she did that that is something that she said to me i think i mean other people were there i don't know i don't remember who was there um but that's the closest thing i've ever had where she like admitted out loud so that's interesting let's let's go to

one more thing uh people have mentioned by the way also the video that john and i have also seen where Ruby is crying and Jody does comfort her by rubbing her leg, the thigh. So there's that. People have mentioned that. For those of you haven't seen that video, Ruby is getting very emotional and talking about why she left aid passengers. And Jody is placing her hand on her leg the entire time trying to comfort her, basically. Right.

John, with all this being laid out on the table, if Jody Hildebrandt is queer, is gay, is a lesbian, what in the world? What does that mean? Why is someone so homophobic? How does this play into her mentality? Please explain it to us, to me. Or does it? It doesn't play into her psychopathy. Well, yeah, I haven't used the term psychopathy with her yet, by the way. So I want to be, I guess you can say that, but I can't say that. I wouldn't, I would, Jesse said it, by the way. Jesse said it. I was reciting what Jesse said.

Okay. Jesse called her a psychopath. Jesse said, right. Jesse believes that Jody is a psychopath and mentioned that on the interview. So I don't know, I don't know where that information came from. We hope to talk to Jesse ourselves. We have not yet. I love the fact that our, by the way,

that our gems consider themselves to be armchair psychologist because I really encourage that. That's part of what we want to do here is we want to have these types of conversations about the psychological elements of crimes. And so I love it. A couple of people were critical of the armchair psychologist label. I'm like, yeah, I love it.

I don't care if you're a psychologist or not. Just go for it. Give us your thoughts. So I agree. I think this is a major component. And let's think about this for a second. She talks about in her book, I guess this will bring us to her book a little bit,

but I haven't read the whole thing, but I have read what I think are the autobiographical elements of her book. She, in her book, she talks about, she starts with, she mentioned this in the video we played last week, but her father was in the Air Force. he was a military man. He flew fighter planes and her mother was a stay-at-home mom.

She basically says that her parents were without any emotions. The motto in the home was, you're a Hildebrand, quote, you're a Hildebrand, go hard or go home. So that's interesting for a couple reasons. Number one, go hard or go home. It kind of implies that love is conditional, that if you don't do well enough or you're not successful enough or if you don't try hard enough and you're not successful,

than you're not loved. So go hard or go home. I mean, I guess that's nothing new. Perhaps many families have that type of motto. But the other thing that's interesting about the go hard or go home to me is, so I've heard the term go big or go home. But in the Hilderbrand family, it's go hard. So that's interesting to me.

That's interesting because hard implies something very masculine. Hard implies this is kind of where I think the, influence of Jody's father comes in, who's the Air Force colonel, that the goal here is not to show emotions, it's to be hard, it's to harden yourself, it's to be kind of, I don't know, masculine and shut down.

And so I think there's an element here where this family probably, and this is also based on her descriptions of her mother. her mother seemed to play more of a side role or a secondary role to the father who's a colonel in the Air Force. She really didn't have a voice. So Jody says that. Let's see if I can find the quote here. Jody says, though many people, she's talking about her mother here.

Her mother lost a four-month-old son and it devastated her. And she says, though many people around her were interested in her grief and pain, she, her mother, was not willing to disclose the devastation she fell. That tragedy, along with many other painful experiences in my mother's life, resulted in her choosing a controlled and controlling exterior, which appeared to serve her well. Unfortunately, I was never able to really know her as a woman or mother, and we both missed out on the connection.

So she's basically saying her mother, I mean, she doesn't get into details, but she's essentially saying that her mother was so filled with grief, apparently that she completely shut down. She was unavailable. She apparently still carried on with her maternal role in the family. But I think one takeaway from that to me is this does seem to be a patriarchy of sorts. Obviously the father's in charge. The mother is sort of in the typical feminine role.

And I'd have to think that there's some sexism in this family. that coupled with the fact that, you know, so what I mean by that is that women in the family are not seen as important or privileged as men. And to use Jody's terms, I guess, I think in some ways women in this family are not enough. Maybe they're not enough. I don't know.

But when you couple that with you, when you couple this kind of sexist attitude in the family with the fact, that women in the church, which was a huge part of this family's culture, that women in the church don't have power, they don't have the priesthood. There are very different roles in the LDS Mormon religion when it comes to the role males and females play in the home. I think when you put those together, you're starting to build some resentment. I think you have someone, Jody, obviously she's female. She's seen the limitations of the power she might have.

She's seen how her father treats the mother, how the father treats women, right? And how the mother is really, in some ways, very isolated in this family. She sees that. Jody will later say in her book that most of her childhood was spent alone. So it's interesting that her mother was isolated

and she was too. So here's what she says. This is on page six. He says, most of my childhood days, I spent alone playing by myself and roaming my desert playground. I could usually be found interacting with the goats in their pen, milking them and riding them. I liked being alone and I fell safe with my animals.

I did not have much adult supervision as my father worked full time and my mother appeared overwhelmed with many tasks and duties. So that's interesting that the mother in many ways is isolated and so is Jody. She has no friends. She spends most of her time with the goats. you know, that's never a good sign, by the way, for somebody who's going to start a company later called Connections to have a childhood where you're lonely and isolated.

And let me say, too, there's something, in reading this, there's something sad here too. You know, I did have some empathy here for Jody. Yeah, yeah. And we'll talk about that more in a minute. But so you have this, you have this intrinsic sexism in this family. It's a patriarchal. family structure, and then you bring in this other component,

let's call it the homophobic component, where I think clearly this probably comes from the father, but there is this element of homophobia and this view, I think, that God does not condone homosexuality, that this is seen in this family. This is seen as a threat. It's seen as evil. Jody uses that term all the time, right?

And we learn that from Jesse as well. That Jody would call Jesse evil all the time for her sexual orientation. So you have this sexism and this homophobia and this family. And then you have this daughter who is both female. And I presume at some point is starting to have potential. And again, we can't confirm. The only way we can confirm Jody is a lesbian would be if she acknowledges it, right? Like that's really the only way we totally confirm that.

Unless she's disclosed it to someone like Rudy, Ruby, and Ruby's not talking about it. So you have these two elements. And clearly this is a family that is not going to support these types of homosexual impulses that Jody is probably experiencing. So figure around like 10-ish, maybe 10 to 12, somewhere in there like pre-pubescent to puberty, that's probably when she's starting to kind of notice this. And, you know, it's important to recognize that children,

they learn how their parents perceive them, right? Children are very interested, or at least reflective children, are very interested in kind of knowing how they, their parents see them and what their identities would do, what their behaviors would do or how that would affect their parents. And so I think Jody is well aware that if she acknowledges those sexual impulses that she's experiencing, that she's going to risk rejection and she's going to risk humiliation in this family. So I think her best option, given that to her, is to deny it. Her best option is to repress and deny any, you know, homosexual fantasies

and impulses and desires she's having. And I would say that that would be the basis of a lot of her psychological conflicts and her neuroses. And so what you have, what we call that, that would be called internalized homophobia, that she's experiencing these negative feelings and denials around her sexual orientation. potentially, which often leads to self-hatred. So you have someone who can't really be what they want to be. They can't, right, they can't express those, let's call them deeper desires, or they can't express really who they are fully.

And I think, you know, the response to that is to just repress it. It's just to push it away and to push it down, which, by the way, on that issue, And this is truly sad and tragic. Jody discloses in her book that she was sexually abused by adolescent boys between the ages of two and five. And then again, when she was older, between the ages of seven and nine. And the way she dealt with it is she's quite open about this. The way she dealt with it is she said she just forgot.

So here's what she says in her book. So she's talking about the second instance of abuse. She said, how does a child of nine years of age move forward with those filthy images in her mind? Question mark. How can she naive to the evils around her reconcile those events? Question mark. Easy. She forgets.

And that's what I did. That was my brilliant way of living out the remainder of my childhood years. So she's acknowledging quite openly that she represses, she represses the trauma. And that's precisely what she's doing with her sexual impulses. She's repressing them so that she doesn't have to deal with them. And so as our astute, I'm sure psychologist listeners pointed out, the consequence of that type of repression and internalized homophobia is projection. Projection in the sense.

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Protect yourself now atora.orghum slash remove. feelings and attributes, and we place them or ascribe them on other people. So what's going on here is, I think, that if indeed Jody is gay, that what's going on here is that she's projecting onto other people all of her self-hatred and that she's feeling in herself. And so one component of that that's really important to recognize is what Jody said to Jesse, which is she tells Jesse, well, you may be gay and that's evil. But if I was gay, I would have deep connections in my relationship.

So therefore, that would be okay. That would be acceptable, right? So, I mean, so the takeaway from that is that what Jody's saying with that comment to Jesse is that she's dehumanizing. She's dehumanizing that entire population. She's dehumanizing the LGBTQ plus community. She's dehumanizing anything that has to do with sexual impulses that aren't perceived to be normal. And so there's a real element here of dehumanization in the sense that when you take the self-hatred and you project it on other people, which is precisely what she did with Jesse, by the way, that you're approaching this from the perspective, that somehow you're better, that somehow you're superior, that, that,

people that are gay are inferior and you're able to do that because you're able to dehumanize that group of people and she showed that so clearly with jesse by saying well you know you're gay and that's evil you're a lesbian that's evil but if i were to do that i would have deep connections and that would make it okay for me because i'm i would humanize it but you you know you gay people over there, you don't humanize it enough. You don't connect with people, so it's not okay. You just have shallow gay relationships, so that's not okay. But me, I'm more humane about it. That's okay, right? But the whole thing is really a version of dehumanization. And so that's how you land. I think that's why this issue is so critical, as our astute listeners, as our armchair psychologist pointed out,

that's why it's such a critical issue because you've got this unresolved rage, you've got this unresolved anger with Jody and you can kind of see that. You know, when she was speaking at the Eternal Court conference, a lot of will say she's so aggressive. She dominates the stage, right? You can feel that aggression.

You can see that aggression. She comes across as angry and aggressive and that is why this issue is so critical, as some of our listeners pointed out, because in a perfect world, somebody like Jody, if she wants to live in the truth that she's so fond of talking about, if she wants to live without distortion, she should start with acknowledging her own sexual impulses,

honest about them, and not repressing them, and not resisting them, and therefore starting down this path of who she really is. And she should live that truth openly. But she can't, obviously, because she's invested, And her whole system of thought is about God and God's truth. And in her mind's eye, and this is controversial because Christians vary on this,

but in her mind's eye, God does not condone homosexuality. So therefore, it's evil. And whoever has those types of sexual impulses is evil. And she is not going to fit in that category. So she'll never acknowledge it. She'll never acknowledge it. And so, and then I just want to say the irony that she is a therapist and she could never get there. I mean, she did have a hard childhood and no matter all the work she did, she never even, she never, she refused.

I honestly think that this is where her entire therapy model comes from is she could never go all the way to accepting herself. she created a system where she never had to tell her entire truth. Let me, yeah, let me, there's some, there's some moments in this book that are really telling. And I want to point some of those out. So she talks about, this is on page seven, she talks about what it would be like if she ever felt good enough. And which is ironic because the title of her book is about feeling good enough. But she says, in the end, she says it never panned out. was good enough.

So that, I mean, she's contradicting the very thing she's trying to promote. She says, every choice I made, every feeling I felt, every precept I had all went through this portal of self-hatred and condemnation. So she's telling us that throughout her whole entire childhood, until she comes up with her therapeutic system, she feels nothing but self-hatred and condemnation. So she's acknowledging her self-hatred. Okay. But this is the most interesting part.

So when she goes on her therapeutic journey, so she says she represses her abuse for many years, and then she goes to see a therapist. And the therapist knows that she's trying to hold back what she's really feeling, and she's not telling him the truth, and he pushes her. And she starts recalling some of her past abuse.

And when she's doing that, she says, while I spent the first two and a half hours, this is with her therapist, attempting to manipulate control and distract him, he was perceptive and did not allow me to duck and dodge his questions. The last 30 minutes, my invisible shield cracked, and I was left with horrid memory, smells, images, and sounds of interactions with one of my perpetrators. So she was forced to acknowledge her trauma with the therapist one time. And I think that moment was really traumatic for her. So maybe the therapist pushed a little too hard. I don't know. But it's interesting that she's also telling us how she deals with unpleasant things.

She's telling us that she's trying to, this is her work. These are her terms. She tried to manipulate control and distract the therapist so that she didn't have to feel those things. And you might say, well, that's a common strategy of clients in therapy. Yes, it is. But what's interesting here is not just this moment with this therapist, but the aftermath. So from what I can tell, she doesn't return to this therapist. And she tries to go on and get help from other people.

And here's what she says. This is really important. She says, this is page nine from her book. She says, quote, during my journey to healing, I was not the traditional patient. I was curious and somewhat suspicious of the professionals I worked with. And this part, this part I'm going to read slowly because it's so important. I resisted their attempts to diagnose my behavior, knowing intuitively that these labels were not components to my healing.

As I participated in their interventions, I was inadvertently unable to stay safe. sick. So what she's saying essentially is that her healing journey with therapists failed. And she's telling us why it failed. It failed because she was suspicious of therapists. So she didn't trust them, which by the way, she says one of her dad's main messages in her family was don't trust anyone. So clearly she spent, she was a loner in childhood. She didn't trust anyone. She didn't trust her therapists. And she said she resisted their interventions, meaning she approached therapy without an open mind.

Any therapist will tell you that the only way you're going to change is if you approach therapy or anything for that matter with an open mind. Otherwise, you're not going to learn. So she shut it down. She wasn't willing to get help. She wasn't a patient that was willing to change. I'm not totally blaming her. Maybe she wasn't ready for it.

But it's the next step that really matters. And that next step is, here's what she says. This is page 10. after years of bumbling around and pretending to be in control, I went to God to find the answers. She says, for 20 years I've been asking heaven

for answers on behalf of myself and all those I work with. I spent tens of thousands of hours asking, studying, listening, and praying to see clearly how to apply principles of truth to human suffering and pain. So what she's learned, so therapy fails because she doesn't want it to succeed, because she is essentially stonewalling the therapeutic process.

So she spends time praying and she spends time alone looking for the answers, and that's when she gets the inspiration from God to come up with this system. So I think it's really important to see the way that religion and God influences her thought process. So in some ways it makes more sense to me after reading her book to see why she's rejecting traditional notions of therapy, which rely more on the patient and the patient's worldview, and she turns to God for the answers. Because I think what you see with Jody's system is that you can only heal through God. And so if you try traditional therapy, which is ironic, I guess, because she probably sells herself as more of a traditional therapist in some ways, but she's not getting help from therapists.

She's getting help from heaven and God and from the other dimension, right? And again, that's Chad Daybell-esque in the sense that Chad Daibald doesn't see any real meaningful interaction with human beings on this planet. It's only when you get to the New Jerusalem that things become meaningful and that you can find the truth. And so you have a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of, you have kind of a therapeutic version of that. You know, on the one hand, I have a lot of empathy for Jody Hildebrand in the sense that

this is someone who grew up in a very difficult family with a lot of, with no emotions, no empathy. They seemed like a very strict religious family. They seemed like they might have had some extreme beliefs in some ways. She doesn't talk about that, but I can make that assumption. And then she was sexually abused because there wasn't a lot of supervision in her home. she was sexually abused according to her twice at a very young age, and that must have been extremely painful to her.

And I'm sure that alone would have created a lot of rage. So in addition to this childhood home where clearly as a female, she felt less than and as someone who was probably maybe, I don't know how young she was, but experiencing some sexual impulses that were forbidden and that she couldn't express. and then she's sexually abused on top of that. I mean, that's a tough situation to be in.

And so, you know, I feel empathy for her in the sense that what she went through was hard and it was horrendous and there must have been a lot of suffering and a lot of pain. So I feel empathy for that. The way she handled it, I probably not so much. I don't have as much. I have no empathy for her as an adult and the way she handled. I have zero empathy. But one, I do have empathy for the child she was.

I will always feel empathy for a child and what a child goes through. No child should have to go through the type of things children go through. I have no empathy for her right now, just being honest, zero. But I can see those two things separately for me. I think where the train goes off the rails is when she's seeking help and she basically, she's just not open to it. I think at that point she knows that working with therapists, at least so working with therapists that don't necessarily bring religion or God into their work. There are some Christian therapists who promote themselves as such, but most therapists are trained to be more humanistic to approach things from, you know, a client-centered perspective and not to bring in God.

And so like for me personally, when I do, if I do clinical work and not forensic work, I would never bring God into anything unless the client thought it was important or the client brings it in. So most therapists are trained to work within the client's worldview and their perceptions of things. And that's typically how it's done. But I think Jody was not content to go down that path. I think Jody really wanted to be special. She thought she was creating something unique. In fact, she says, we talked about this a little last week.

she says her work is, quote, it is the new paradigm of thought that when learned, practice, and applied will heal all emotional, mental, and spiritual illness. It heals disconnection, sadness, anxiety, trauma, fears, addictions, entitlements, conflict, resentments, and individual and relationship pain of all types. Truth heals.

This is the promise from God. This is really in the book. She says that. So she's essentially saying that her approach to treatment is a panacea for all mental health ailments. She's arguing that. That's a big, I think any therapist would say that that's a massive claim right there. But she believes it. And of course, I just noticed a comment.

Yeah, of course, she profited hugely from this. She did. She made a ton of money from this. And again, most therapists don't get into this field for money. Most of us truly are invested in helping others. And helping others is not an endeavor that makes one rich. So it is peculiar that I think one of her goals certainly was fame and fortune. Kathleen, thank you for your comment.

A lot of people are implying. We're saying, think, Jody is gay and that's okay. Yeah. The problem is she doesn't think it's. Okay. Right, exactly. That's the issue. We're discussing. I'm not making a judgment about her sexual orientation at all. I'm making a judgment about her perception of it and her repression of it and her seemingly unwillingness to acknowledge it. It's the avoidance here. That's the problem. Being gay is fine. In fact, I think if she was willing to challenge her family a little bit and come out of the closet

it and acknowledge her sexual orientation early on, you might not be where this might not have happened. The problem isn't her sexual orientation. The problem is her inability or her unwillingness to acknowledge it. It's her avoidance of it, her denial of it. I think we have some new listeners tonight. Thank you for being here and thank you for being part of our channel. With that, you might not understand how we always do things here. We delve into the hidden motives and many people are suggesting by assessing her or trying to see her as a whole person with experiences in her past. We might be helping her or excusing her.

John assesses criminals. My wonderful husband here, he assesses criminals for a living. We have to work to understand victims, but we also have to work to understand criminals because without that understanding, these crimes are committed again and again. So in order to help stop crimes from happening or to see the red flags or to see the warning signs or to become better as humans in this world and understanding people, we discuss the criminals and try to understand what might have created them. So for those new to hit into crime, that is what we do here while we support the victims. And many of our victims thank us for our work in helping understand what happened to them. how something could be possible.

And as Stacy said, a couple comments ago, she is not, not gay. Yeah. I love that. I love that. Is she not, not her best self? I don't know. I need to, I need to ponder that one.

She's also, she's just not her best self, or she's not, not our best self. Three knots. I give that one out. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for talking about the elephant in the room. Now, for those that say, nobody's talking about this, send them to hidden true crime. Time code this. We talked about it. Right. I'm sure, you know, sometimes talking about the elephant in the room isn't popular. So I'm sure we're going to, you know, I'm sure we're going to get a little pushback. But hey, that's why we're here. Jody has her version of the truth. I guess we have our version of the truth. So I'm I mean, her version of the truth obviously is more compelling.

But hers is truth with a capital T. Ours is with a very small T. Oh, she, that's another fascinating. She actually defines those two things in her book, by the way. She's like, truth with a capital T, truth with a lower K-T. She also, like, has some thing. She's very anti-opinions. Only truth, no opinions.

Opinions don't count. I'm like, but I have an opinion. Well, she should just shut up then, according to Jody. Shut those opinions down. The truth. I have it. I don't even know what to do with that. I think for a lot of philosophers,

they would argue that its opinions all the way down. But, you know, with maybe some modicum of truth here and there, but not with a capital T. It's a big claim in the sense that she's really arguing that she's the one with access to the truth. Yeah. She's also not in jail now. She's, yeah.

I think there should be some type of jingle for her connection. group or something about you are not not enough and then the subtitle is enoughness enoughness is the lie that keeps you from the truth all caps of who you are that's the subtitle you know people people get mad at mental health professionals for all the psychobabble but I mean this is not helping this is not going to help the if people think that we use too much cycle babble this this is just certainly this is going to be the cherry on top of the you know, the whipped cream. Also, did she use that speak with children? I mean, it just is like, you know, what if we told her, you can't, can't play with your tablet? Apparently, there's another

book called You Are Not Enough by, I don't know, Beth, that's somebody stuckie, I think. So, somebody was asking when this book came out, it came out in 2019. So I don't know when the other book came out. But I do want to say this, that I'm going to, I'm going to read the first line. I think this is important. So that's why I'm going to, I'm going to back up and talk about this. this is the first line from Jody's book. She says, quote, the greatest lie that has ever been told is this. You are not enough.

When I read that, I mean, this is the very first sentence of her book. Page one, first sentence. When I read that, I thought that's Brenny Brown, dude. She's totally ripping up Bernie Brown. Brenny Brown's whole message is that you're not, you often feel like you're not enough because of shame, which by the way, again, getting back to Jesse, Jesse says that her whole message during the period when Brenny Brown was starting to write about shame was about shame.

So, you know, to me, that's another person that she borrowed, let's say borrowed from. I don't know if that's the right, that she borrowed material from Brenny Brown. This whole idea of not being enough is really a very popular idea that was popularized by Freddie Brown. And so when Jody thinks here that she's coming up with a new paradigm, I think she should really start cruditing in some people and start recognizing that this stuff didn't come out of nowhere, that she's taking these ideas from cognitive behavioral therapy, from Bernie Brown, from reality therapy, from existential therapy.

She's taking them from all over the place. She's taking them from the 12-step programs, that one of the basis of their, I've talked about this last week, but I just want to make it clear this is not new stuff. the only thing that makes this new is that she tries to tie this to God as the source of truth and I think that's part of the issue so anyway enough about that I'm going to end with so I need I need an antidote I need an antidote you are not an odd you are not not not I can't even say it anymore it's like become a tongue twister you are not not not not not not enough

This is a book by John Fredrickson. John Fedrickson is someone I really have a lot of respect for. He's great. And so if you want an antidote to this whole idea of distortion and not being enough, John Fredrickson would be the book to read The Lies We Tell Ourselves. I think this is a book we're probably going to read in our book club. But I'm just going to, I don't have time to get into this book too much, but I want to read a little bit of the end of this book to counter some of Jody's ideas.

this is from Frederickson, page 156. We can imprison people in their histories and in our demands. If we are fortunate, differences with others will rouse us. Opening our eyes, we discern others little by little and attempt to know them completely. Given the choice of embracing people or our ideas about them, we must always choose people.

Then our thinking will expand to accommodate what is. Are we knowable? No, but we are embracable. This is what we live in, the embrace. I love that because that's the complete opposite of what Jody is saying. He's saying that we're not knowable that if we try to understand and judge other people based on our ideas of them and not by actually seeing them and looking at them and trying to understand who they are, no matter what their race or sexual orientation

or beliefs, if we don't try to really see people. And this is the problem with Jody's system of thought, is that it's based on ideas. Her distortion is the distortion of her ideology. The irony is that she's trying to promote this idea of connection, but in many ways she's disconnected. Given the choice of embracing people or ideas about them, we must always choose people.

So I think the problem with therapeutic approaches that are more theoretical and more idea-based like Jody's are that you're really losing track of the person sitting in front of you. And you're not really listening. You're not paying attention to that person. And I love this idea that, you know, Frederickson says, we're not really totally knowable, but that doesn't mean I can't embrace someone. That doesn't mean that in my confusion and in my mystery and in my in my unknowingness, that someone can't embrace me or I can't embrace someone else.

And that's truly the opposite of the Jody Hildebrand idea. I appreciate Fredericksson's approach to therapy. And I think that's more consistent with how I see effective treatment. And it's unfortunate that the Jody didn't stay with it and really tried to open herself up to change and to healing at some point. Thank you. As Janine says, Dr. John always leads us with something profound. And he does, and it's true.

All right. Good night. Hello, Hidden Jems. It's Lauren with Hidden a True Crime podcast. Hit the subscribe button for surprise lives and breaking news. And for exclusive content, thinks Dr. John and I only dare say behind a paywall, become a Patreon member at patreon. com slash hidden true crime. You'll find bonus episodes, early releases, and insider info. Thank you for your endless support.

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