Hidden True Crime - RUBY FRANKE/JODI HILDEBRANDT CASE: Hildebrandt Unmasked. Forensic psychologist Dr John Matthias shows what's Hidden

Episode Date: October 9, 2023

August 30, 2023--a brave 12-year-old boy escapes a house of torture in Southern Utah --rescuing himself and his 10-year-old sister. A neighbor feeds the emaciated boy and calls 911. The children's mother YouTube Celebrity Ruby Franke, and Ruby's therapist Jodi Hildebrandt, are arrested 250 miles north in Springville, Utah and charged with 6 counts of aggravated child abuse. TODAY WE AKS: WHY IS JODI HILDEBRANDT? Dr John Matthias leads the discussion. Dr John is a clinical and forensic psychologist. Dr John Matthias and reporter Lauren Matthias, who are husband and wife, have been covering this story since the arrests, and will continue to bring you the very latest in this heartbreaking story that sounds all too familiar. Thank you for subscribing to our podcast and to our YouTube channel LAUREN MATTHIAS has worked as an anchor and reporter for ABC, NBC, and FOX News in East Idaho, Boise, Idaho and Salt Lake City, Utah. She spent a decade reporting on a diverse range of topics from high profile crimes to Presidential visits. Most recently, she reported for Salt Lake City’s ABC affiliate News4Utah. In 2015 she received the Idaho State Broadcaster’s Association Best Reporter award. She left the reporting world to produce the Hidden True Crime Podcast along with her husband Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist. DR. JOHN MATTHIAS is a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with 30 years’ experience in both clinical and forensic work. He serves as an expert witness for the federal government and has consulted on numerous high-profile cases for District Attorney’s offices and defense attorneys in several states. In the forensic area, Dr. Matthias has developed expertise in personality assessments, hidden behavioral motivations, complex trauma and criminal psychology. In the clinical realm, he has worked with numerous victims. He received his Master’s degree in Marriage, Family and Child counseling, as well his doctorate degree, from the University of Southern California. Dr. Matthias graduated with honors in philosophy from Princeton University, and he won the prestigious McCosh Thesis prize while there. In high school he graduated valedictorian from a large public high school in Chicago where he was chosen to participate in a ground-breaking valedictory study that continues to this day. Dr. Matthias has been an adjunct assistant professor in the University of Nevada Las Vegas clinical psychology doctoral program since 2007. He supervises UNLV doctoral students on forensic assessments, clinical case formulation, and various therapeutic approaches to clinical work. Your support helps us produce these podcasts/videos. We have some big plans to explore the true crime terrain in a way that no one else has attempted. HIDDEN: A TRUE CRIME PODCAST is: CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY REINVENTED. Join us on a journey into the darkest recesses of the human mind and the unconscious motivations that drive human behaviors in order to understand the world and ourselves. WEBSITE: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ TO SUPPORT: https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime https://cash.app/$hiddenTruecrime Join our channel to get access to perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBp03toXz-WZ6gSt7YtSdEg/join Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's time for another weekend live Hidden Hour with the Dr. John Matthias Forensic Psychologist. He also happens to be my husband and is just in the other room so that we can go split screen. It's easier for both of us. But we are co-hosts of this podcast as well as partners in crime in and not in that way in that we are both

very interested in the human mind and the hidden motives that drive human behavior and yes our eyes all week have been on the Ruby Frankie eight passenger Jody Hildebrandt case a heartbreaking case out of southern Utah as well as northern Utah the arrests happened in northern Utah but the finding a 12-year-old R.F as well as 10-year-old E.F. in Ivan's Utah, and Jody Hildebrand's $3 million home happened in Southern Utah's.

Jody Hildebrandt and her business partner and mother of the children, Ruby Frankie, YouTuber, Momcaster. They were both arrested because of the trauma inflicted on the 10-year-old and 12-year-old. We have a lot to talk about. Dr. John has been assessing criminals for 30 years. I was a TV reporter for 10 years. We have, I think, in my opinion, an excellent program for you. We're going to start delving into this and delving into the hidden motives.

Where do you want to start, Dr. John? There's a lot of unpacking to do tonight. We have been talking all week. You gave me your little map. Maybe I'll give a little teaser. Look at this, guys. John's storyboard right there. Where would you like to start, sweetheart?

Well, let's start with one of the things I think that's interesting about this case is the broad appeal of a case like this. You know, compared to some of the cases we cover, which involved horrific homicides. This case is quite different. And of course, harming children is obviously horrendous, but fortunately the children are okay. They were hospitalized and they're doing well as far as we know. But in spite of the fact that this crime may not have had such horrific behaviors as we're normally used to covering, it's really captivated people's attention. And I think for good reason.

And there's a couple reasons why I think it's really. fascinated us in particular is number one, it involves a therapist. It involves a mental health professional. And of course, I'm a mental health professional. So of course, I'm going to be interested in a situation where a mental health professional is being accused of really serious crimes, felonies against children. So I think that's one part of this equation is that I think therapists, as therapists, we're entrusted with protecting our clients. well-being and welfare, and that's what we do. And so to see something like this, I think, is just probably not just for me as a mental health professional, but for just people in general

who have gone to therapists or know about the role of therapy in our culture or the potential important role of therapy and helping people that to see a mental health professional engage in this type of behavior is probably just mind-boggling. It's, it's, it's, it's, At the very least, I'm sure it's confusing. And we're referring to Jody Hildebrandt. I'm talking about Jody Hildebrand. Right. So that's one half of the equation.

I think that in and of itself is interesting, which isn't to say that mental health professionals don't get into problems. And I get a quartering newsletter every quarter from my psychological board. And they list ethical violations. And that's common. You know, sadly it's common. But you don't see ethical violations of this magnitude very often. So I think that is definitely something that is interesting about this case.

And then, of course, the other side of the equation is Ruby Frankie. And she is, was, I guess, was a major YouTube star with two and a half million subscribers. Her channel was, you know, one of the top channels in the world. Big passengers. Yeah. It's made passengers for many years. So you have some element of fame here. You have someone who was very well known and a part of YouTube for many years.

And so I think you have those two elements coming together. You have a therapist or a mental health professional that's really entrusted with the care of other people. And you have a famous or relatively famous, I guess, YouTuber. We're on YouTube. And, you know, we know that fame is relative. So we don't make any claims to fame at all, by the way. So we're just going to have our little niche here and we do our thing. And sometimes we get seen most of the time we don't.

But somebody who gets two and a half million views, that's a whole different level of magnitude. We can't even imagine that level of subscribers and fame. And she had it. So you and I both are in these two different worlds. I'm Mena Huff professional and we're both on you. YouTube and you do more YouTube than I do, but we know these worlds. And so I think, I think to us in some ways, this is very personal and interesting for those reasons. Well, let's add to my background. I was a television reporter for 10 years in Idaho and Utah and I was the sole TV reporter for ABC

in Ivan's Utah where these trauma survivors were found. These young, innocent survivors were found. I know the area well. I love the area. I know the people. And I was just down there. Many of you saw on my channel that I was just there in front of the home. That is a place we love.

There's a place we've been. It's a place we can't imagine. imagine. We can't imagine that neighbor, and you can hear it in his voice when you hear the 911 call. This man who found RF and was explaining to the 911 operator in, you know, what he had seen. And I've also, I've been in that dispatch. I know exactly where they called. I know exactly where that 911 call went. I know the people that work in that dispatch center. You don't get calls like that. And, you know, you can hear him getting emotional explaining the call that, that are, you know, while he is looking at RF, he can tell he's been detained. And then when he asks R.F, why, you know, why the duct tape, where he's been, he blames himself.

R.F. blames himself. And I think that's our first hint. That's something really nefarious, really deep, really hidden going on in this case. Yeah, and I should mention that I've done quite a bit of work in Southern Utah in particular. You and I lived there for several years, and so I know the community as well. I know some of the mental health professionals. I should say that, by the way, I didn't know Jody Hilda Brandt. I didn't know her personally. I never talked to her personally. However.

However, I did attend a few trainings that Jody, where Jody was present. And she wasn't a speaker. She didn't present, but she was in attendance. And I can say that at those training, she made her presence known. She's unforgettable. She's unforgettable. Right. And when I say that, I think that for those of you out there who have to attend educational seminars for continuing education credits,

you'll know that in the audience, there's always one or two people. people who raise their hands all the time and they want you to know that they're smart and they challenge the presenter and they're very disruptive. And I'm never one of those people, by the way. Even if I don't disagree with the presenter, I just listen. I'm there to learn. So I don't, I don't raise my hand in challenge. I mean, unless it's like an egregious mistake or something that might need correcting. But I remember quite distinctly that Jody was one of the people who challenged the presenters and raised her hands and she's just he's one of the people that you see at a CE workshop who you just wish would put their hand down so that you could you know so that the

presenter can can say what they need to say or present their material right C.C says oh man the know at all that makes a meeting longer than it has to be you know and understand that person right right exactly. So yeah. Meet Jody Hildebrand. I just, I'm with you, Cici. I just want to, I just want to get through the presentation, you know, learn the material and get out. Like, I don't want to be disruptive at all. So, but Jody had a different opinion on that. So in spite of that, so I remember her attending some of these workshops, but I never introduced myself. I never met her. So I didn't know her. All right. So, so in other words, This is, you know, it's a person that's in a position of power to people, a mom fluencer

and a mental health expert and just pure innocence. And we're all sitting here trying to wonder how this happened. So where do we even start? So before I get going into that, so right. So the big question here is how do you go from, how do you go from being a thorough? to potentially harming children. And obviously, she's still innocent, right? She's innocent until proven guilty.

These are still alleged crimes. So we don't know for sure what the details are. Presumably, she'll go to trial or she might take a plea deal. Who knows? But we know what our interviews have said. We know what other people's interviewees have said. And we know what the probable cause and charging docs say. But innocent until proven guilty in the United States.

And they don't say a lot, by the way. But we'll get into that in a second. You know, I want to talk about all the mental health people out there are going to know this. But I want to talk about a little bit about the ethical guidelines for mental health professionals. It's a little different based on the mental health professional you are. For example, social workers have a bit of a different ethical code than psychologists and psychiatrists of a slightly different code. So there, I mean, but there's a lot of over. And one of the commonalities of our ethical codes is many of our ethical codes are based upon the Hippocratic Oath.

And the Hippocratic Oath is really simple. The basis of it is to do no harm. First do no harm. So for psychologists, the way that gets translated in my ethical codes is what we call non-Maleficence. non-maleficence is essentially that idea that we should first try to do no harm that's our goal so one of the things i tell my students occasionally not often but occasionally is that when they have doubts about what they should say or do and many many novice therapists have this desire to do something they want to be active they want their clients to to feel like they're doing something and I I tell my students sometimes, look, when you're, when you have doubts about what to do, just sit on your hands, keep your mouth closed, and just listen.

Because if you just listen and you try to understand someone, you're not going to do harm. Right. And I think that's a fundamental governing principle of mental health is that listening is really what we do. We do it in different ways and we're guided by different theoretical orientations. But that goal of not harming someone is so salient and so important. And so I think that as a mental health professional, when I see someone like Jody in this situation, even if she's acquitted or not guilty, my guess is that this is probably going to be taken up by a board somewhere simply because there are potential ethical issues here, obviously,

that these would be apart from or outside of the legal system. And so I think it's important to talk about this because there is the legal standard, which is much higher, right? In this case, it's a felony or a presumed felony or alleged felony. And then you have ethical guidelines, which, let's say the bar is lower, but they're no less important because they're what define us or me, mental health professionals, they are what make us professionals. And those are the guidelines that kind of dictate behaviors

and what we can and cannot do or what we should and shouldn't do. And so this idea of non-maleficence and doing no harm, I think, is really critical here because we're going to see when we talk about Jody that there's really no concern at all for this. That in many ways Jody is very concerned about imposing her will and imposing her views and perspectives and beliefs on other people. And that, I hate to tell her, but that is not non-maleficence. One of the second major guidelines of my ethical codes is what's called beneficence. And beneficence means, so if my first goal is to not harm someone,

then my second goal should be to help promote client well-being. So the second goal, the second ethical guideline is to help people, essentially. right so first I don't want to harm secondly if I can help people great so if I'm telling my students you know if you don't know what to do just listen the second part of that is listen in a way that's helpful listen in a way that's going to help somebody understand themselves or their lives or their problem or whatever so you have those two components and again these are going to be completely relevant to our discussion of Jody Hildebrandt and her participation in the mental health field.

And then the third, there's a few others, but let's say the third and the fourth are justice and autonomy. Autonomy has to do with client freedom and client decision making. And the biggest part about autonomy is the idea of confidentiality, which is that we protect clients' privacy and identities, and we keep information confidential because there's a sacred trust in the therapeutic relationship. The client expects me to not betray a basic trust between us with information and secrets and potentially damaging information that they may be telling me. And again, the reason I mentioned this with Jody is because in 2012,

Jody was, there was an ethical complaint against Jody for a breach of confidentiality when she went to a bishop with privileged information, private information about a client, and she disclosed it without his consent. So as early as 2012, there's already some problems brewing here. And as we'll hear from Jesse, who is the niece of Jody's, Jesse will tell us that there weren't just problems. There were very serious problems brewing, but we were starting to see the tip of the iceberg in 2012

when Jody blatantly violated the confidentiality of one of her clients at the time. And so I think that was a good clue that something was amiss here. That client, let's point out that client is Adam Steed, and we have his interview, his two-part interview on our YouTube channel. If you miss the second part, Some people suggested I made the thumbnails look so similarly similar minus one says part one and the other says part two. Some might have missed that.

But that is an important interview on our YouTube channel here, Adam Steed's interview. You know, John, before, let's explain what we're going to talk about Jody right now too. You keep bringing up Jody. And Ruby is the mom influencer. And Ruby is the one that has been in the news the most. and Ruby is who people really seem to know. So let's set the stage here right now and explain. This is just part one of a very deep analysis.

So we hope to all of you journey with us. But I remember we covered the daybell case extensively, John, and the children were missing. And three years ago, we sat down and we recorded our first ever podcast episode. And I said, okay, let's talk Lori Vallo. Let's talk the children's mother right now. This is episode one, our first episode ever, and you said, well, give me a second.

The first thing we need to do, before we get to Lori Valo, we've got to get to Chad Daibel. We need to discuss Chad Debao. And that's what you've been saying to me. So we are picking apart this case, delving into the deep hit of motives. But what you're saying is before we get to Ruby and before we get to Kevin, We need to talk about who Jody Hildebrandt is. Is that what you're saying tonight?

Yeah. So I think that's a good analogy. If we compare this to the Daybell case, and there are people who pointed this out to us correctly, I think that there are a lot of parallels with Daybell. Fortunately, the level of harm in this case is a lot less than Daybell. But in terms of beliefs, so let's see this as a case where belief, guide actions, that the beliefs here, and let's call them extreme beliefs, in many cases,

are what makes the difference. The way we're going to get to potentially trauma, children that are traumatized, is through belief. And that was true in Daybell's way as well. The beliefs are really what we want to look at. So we want to look at, and Jody is the one. So Jody is the one with the, let's call it the system of beliefs. She's the one with the therapeutic ideas.

She's the one with, we talked to several of her previous clients. They refer, some of them refer to as a cult leader. Some of them don't. But most of them did, by the way. So it's through that, let's call it a cult, whether it is or not, we can, you know, we can, we can debate that and split hairs. But let's say that that this is a type. of cult. And if that's true, then it's the beliefs and the way that cult is run that would get us to the crimes that occurred here.

And the same thing would be true of Debo. It's those extreme beliefs that are really driving the bus and driving behavior. And so if we want to understand this case, I think it's just like Debo in the sense that we really need to understand Jody first and foremost. And, you know, yes, we will get to Ruby. We're going to do several episodes on this particular case because like Daybell, there's so many layers of complexity. And you and I are, we're just at the very tip of the iceberg right now. The more we talk to people and the more we learn, just the deeper this thing gets. So I think as a starting point, we need to start with Jody. And on that point, by the way, I should mention that.

in the probable cause statements, for those of you who haven't seen those or read them, there's a line in the probable cause statement that is absolutely critical. And I'm going to read that. This is on page two of the probable cause statement. It's the affidavit of probable cause, state of Utah versus Jody Nann, Hildebrandt. Here's the line that's really critical. So Jody, Jody refused to talk to law enforcement. She requested a lawyer.

She didn't speak. Once given her charges, this is a quote, quote, once given her charges, Ms. Hildebrand informed me that EF and RF should never be allowed around any other kids. So. And by the way, I want to state this before you go there. Be careful with your wording.

We're going to be talking very carefully with our words. Yeah, we have to, right. I'm just afraid knowing where you're going. We've had some bots after us and YouTube. So, yeah, I'm probably not going to go exactly where you think I'm going to go. But by Jody stating that, that the two victims should never be allowed around other kids, essentially that's an admission of guilt.

Correct. In other words, so she's saying, she's blind. First of all, so she's blaming the victims, and we'll get into that later, but she's blaming the victims for the harm that was done to them. But she's also acknowledging that she knew. She's giving a motivation for why the children were found the way they were. Correct. Which many of you know involved duct tape and lacerations and injuries.

And so the victims had these injuries, and Jody is saying, to law enforcement that the victims should never be allowed around any other kids. That's an admission of guilt. She's essentially saying why she did that. Right. Right. So I think that's interesting because, so for a couple reasons. Number one, it's a disclosure, it's an admission of guilt of sorts.

I mean, she may, I'm sure her attorney will try to walk that back at some point. but a couple points. It's an admission of guilt, number one. And also, if you read Ruby's probable cause statement, it shows that Jody was leading the charge. This was Jody's show. The Jody, Jody made that decision to restrain the children. She knew about it,

and she's the one who spoke to law, who mentioned that to law enforcement. Ruby never did that. Ruby was aligned with Jody because they had done a video. They had done a YouTube video a couple days previously, which was able to place Ruby in Jody's home at the time of the alleged offenses or the alleged crimes. But this statement by Jody is really important for, as I said, for several reasons.

She knew, number one, and number two, this was her show. This was, she seems to be the one in charge. And so that's why we want to start with Ruth, I'm sorry, that's why we want to start with Jody tonight because Jody does seem to be, and we'll hear from Jesse. Yeah, let's.

Yeah, do you want to, can you play that? Yeah, let's hear Jesse share this specifically. They did an excellent job over on Mormon stories. We are friends with host Jondolin over at Mormon Stories, and we recommend everyone watching this riveting interview with a trauma survivor, Jesse. This is what they say about their abuse by their Aunt Jody. Jody's told them that these children should not be around anyone else, that they were evil and they can't be around anyone else. Other children, right? They can't be around other children. They can't be around other children. They shouldn't be around other children because they're evil.

Or something to that effect. And this is exactly what she did to me. So the thing that I am finding, I'm having a lot of emotional reaction to, and it's complicated because I'm grateful, in a weird way, I'm grateful that she partnered with someone that has so much fame because I don't think there was no way it would be. getting the coverage that it's getting if she hadn't. But Jody is the mastermind here, not Ruby. Ruby is still responsible and like should be arrested for harming her children for sure. And I'm sure Jody like used that, used what it was already there, which is what she does. She uses what's already there to her advantage. Jody is the is the one doing this. Jody this is Jody's therapeutic ideas. are Jody's ideas that she has been doing for over 14 years. This is not new.

This is a pattern. And I cannot, I'm just so grateful that these children, A, were taken out of that care, not care, but out of custody from them. And that hopefully because of the validation and, and the repercussions that are happening to them, that their healing will be much faster. In other words, Jody is the mastermind, as Jesse states. Right.

And so if we use the Daybell analogy, the focus that I thought, so when I first started, when I first started blogging about Daybell, and this was a long time ago, this was like March of 2020 before anybody was really weighing in on Daybell, right at the start of the pandemic, I noticed that a lot of people were pointing the finger at Lori.

And I jumped in and I said, look, I think you guys are a little misled here. I think that Chad is really the one leading the charge. And so we started with Chad. And so I think we're talking about Jody leading the charge here as well. So I think we really need to start with Jody if we want to understand this case because you'll see later on that Ruby, to quote one of the people we talk to, that Ruby parrots everything that Jody says. And that's not to say that Ruby isn't responsible.

She's clearly responsible. So, I mean, one of the things about their show, about eight passengers before they even knew Jody, was that there were questions about their parenting practices prior to knowing Jody. So, I mean, they're not blameless by any stretch of the imagination. No, just like Lori Vallow is far from dangerous, and justice has been served there with her three consecutive life sentences.

Right. And similar, again, if we stay with that analogy, that Ruby kind of puts gasoline on the fire when she meets Jody, that Jody really, you know, that they're sort of that really toxic. blend that just that that, you know, ignites and explodes the powder cake. Well, listen to this even. Let's listen to this really quickly. This is Kevin Frankie answering questions about people watching their channel and being upset by their questionable practices. Look at what they explain and how they disregard concerns.

And the things that we show and share and the things that many of you are criticizing and calling abusive are actually things that mental health professionals have counseled us to do. We got accused of child abuse when we sent Chad to Anasazi. Guess what? The first thing that they did was take a bed away. They don't have beds. People are really triggered. And so if you are triggered and you're upset because of something Kevin and I have done with our children that is actually working really well for us, then I would invite you to look at it and ask yourself, what is it that I'm projecting onto this situation? Because so we've learned.

I just wanted to point that out because first off, the first thing they say is, well, we learned a lot of this. Just to you guys know back off, we learned this from a mess. mental health professional. So that's the first thing he states there, Kevin states there. In other words, back off because this person in authority and power is telling us this is okay. This person is validating our practices. We're just going to blindly follow the advice of a mental health professional, who happens

to be Jody, by the way. But, you know, so it's okay if we're doing harmful things to people, but because a mental health professional told us it's okay. Right. Which by the way, the other part of this is blaming the victim. Like, you know, I mean, we'll get into that more later, but let's just say that this is troubling, this perspective. And to say the lead is trouble. But it also speaks to the power dynamic. This, by the way, is another reason that mental health professionals have such binding ethical codes because in many mental health professional relationships, many therapeutic relationships, there's a power imbalance, there's a power differential. You go to someone,

you go to a therapist when you're vulnerable, with a lot of shameful information, and then you disclose it to someone who is supposed to help you process. or understand or to cope with that information. And so the person that you're going to for help, clearly in that dynamic, has power over you. They're in what we call a one-up position. And so that would be true of Jody as well. Every client that came to her for help with parenting or parenting practices or marital difficulties, they're all vulnerable.

We heard this from several of her patients. One of the patients we heard from said that she was extremely vulnerable. She was traumatized. She was having marital problems. And she went to Jody in a state of disrepair. Yes. She was very needy. And she believed that Jody completely took advantage of that.

So that's part of this, clearly, is that power differential. Yes. Thank you. Right. Where next? So let's start, let's start unpack the belief system or at least, so I think these two go together, but Jody's beliefs and her therapeutic approach, I think there's a lot of commonalities there. So let's start unpacking that a little bit. And do you have, can you put up the, the PDF? Yes, let's put up the PDF. And we have a lot, actually. We've discovered a lot when it comes to this belief system.

Here is the PDF. There you go, babe. Yeah, I don't know if people can. I don't know. Well, they really can't now. Let's see. Yeah, is there any way to enlarge that a little bit? Yeah.

Okay, that's a little better. All right. So, great. Thank you. So can you guys see that okay? It's as good as it's going to get. So I hope so. All right.

So I did my best to kind of map out a schematic of what I think the guiding beliefs are in this case. And I want to talk about that. We're going to break that down a little bit and try to explain it. But let's start with at the very top you'll see what I call an addiction mindset. So one of the most interesting things that came out of some of the people we talked to this week was that people said over and over that Jody believes everyone is an addict. So even if you're not an addict, so people would push back on that and say, I'm not an addict, I don't have this problem.

I don't have, you know, I don't do drugs. I don't do whatever the addiction is, Jody would disagree and tell them repeatedly you're an addict. So Adam Steed was quite frank about that. I can mention his name because you did the interview. Adam Steed said that Jody was really adamant about saying everyone is an addict. We heard from another previous client of Jody's that said, quote, everyone has an addiction. If you try to tell her that you don't have an addiction,

she will disagree with you and convince you that you have an addiction. So Jody is very much invested in this idea of what I call the addiction mindset. You can see that at the top. And the reason that's important is because we're going to get into this idea of sin and sinners, which is a big part of her belief system. And to me, this addiction mindset is very much similar. When I thought about this, and I was trying to put it in context, it's very similar to the idea of original sin, I think,

in the sense that whether you are an addict or not, it doesn't really matter. everyone is born an addict and the goal is because you're an addict and because you're unhealthy and because you're in distortion and we'll talk about that in a minute that you need to find the truth the only way to free yourself from addiction is to find the truth and to find healing and the way you heal is through what Jody calls spiritual surgery spiritual surgery is casting out all sin or removing sin or at least getting someone to confess sin. So you begin with this addiction mindset, whether you're an addict or not, it doesn't matter. And again, if I reference Adam Steed, Adam Steed was a victim of abuse as a child.

He went through a horrific trauma. You can listen to Lauren's interview for more details. but he went to see, he was referred to Jody for treatment, and he was placed in a group to help him with treatment. And here's the mind-boggling part about this story, is that he's a victim, clearly a victim. That was documented very well. Goes to see Jody.

She puts him in a group for offenders. And she tells him, well, you're really an offender, you just don't know it yet. But I'm going to show you that because of the way you think, because you have an addiction mindset, because you're an addict, that you're really an offender. And that just, that blew me away. At first when I heard that I thought, no, that didn't happen. Like if I brought a victim into one of my offender groups, and I've done offender groups

for years, I would lose my license. Or I would probably feel so guilty about it, I would give my license up. Like, you don't bring victims into offender groups and then try to convince the victims that they're really offenders. That is just not best practice. It's actually, it's unthinkable. But it goes back to this idea of addiction mindset. And as Adam pointed out, whether you're an addict or not, it doesn't matter to Jody.

you're an addict because you're born a sinner and the goal is to cast out sin. So we're all born sinners. We all have some satanic components. We're all, I guess, demonic to some degree. And we'll later learn that she calls that distortion. That's a word she uses all the time. It's a word that Ruby uses all the time, by the way. So anybody who's ever been to see Jody will use the word distortion.

on repeat endlessly. That's her big word, distortion. I'm going to make a T-shirt that says distorted and proud. I don't want your truth. I'm good being distorted. Leave me alone, Jody. Okay. Well, if you do that, you better not do that or I'll have to place you in an offender group.

So. Yeah, right. Right. Even though you're not an offender. So you have this, you have this, you have this dynamic between the addiction mindset and distortion and what Jody calls truth. So all of life comes down to two elements essentially. Distortion, which is driven by the addiction mindset and truth.

Of course, it turns out that Jody is the one who can translate truth for you. If you don't understand truth and anybody out there who's wondered what truth is or, you know, from a philosophical standpoint, philosophers have done. debated the meaning of truth for thousands of years, but I guess Jody just seamlessly knows what truth is. So if you need help translating what truth is, Jody will tell you. And she'll tell you that it's distortion. And Jody knows the truth because she's had visions and dreams from God that have given her the truth. In fact, she had a dream where God told her, she was trying to figure out initially she was using shame as one of her guiding concepts and then she had a dream

where God told her that shame wasn't the right word. It was distortion. And that's where she changed from shame to distortion. Yes. And we can share that in just a little bit, right? We'll share that. Yeah. Did you want to, in fact, do you want to share some of the, do you have some of the clips from Yeah, I thought that's what we're going to do, but you were talking about this map. Yeah, yeah. I'm probably getting ahead of myself a little. little bit. So why don't I don't know if you can let's let's play some of the clips and then we can get back to the map. Okay. Okay. So this this clip that we're about to play is from the YouTube channel Eternal Core. That is it is linked in the description of this video if anyone wants to go

check it out. It is Jody Hildebrandt at an Eternal Core conference. Now, To go full circle and to see the Daybell connections, Eternal Core is run by therapist Tom Harrison. Tom Harrison is the man behind the visions in visions and glory, visions of glory. Visions of Glory is a book we've talked about a lot. It's set the stage for Chad, Abel, and Lori Valo's belief system. It was written by John Pontius.

The visions were Tom Harrison's visions. and believed to be literal by many people, including Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow. This is his conference. This is his conference. It's for therapists that want to bring God back into therapy. And Jody is part of this conference. So I will share this with you.

Thank you. Thank you. How's the sound for everybody? In the back, we good? Awesome. Okay. So I am so. excited like I could barely sleep last night because I get to come and talk to you about God and how God is

how we need to bring God back into the mental health field because he is the thing the person the being that heals us and so let me tell you a little bit about what I've been doing for the last 20 years I've been trying to figure out how to help my clientele I've been working with tens of thousands of people for 20 years, and I've been asking God about how to help heal them from this array of mental and emotional illness. So all of us know that depression, anxiety, suicidality, all these presenting issues and symptoms that come into your office or in your families or maybe or even inside you. And so I have been on this journey trying to understand how to use principles that are gods in helping people heal.

So let me back up and talk to you about when I was a child. So I was raised. I was the sixth of seven children. I have one sister. So I had all these brothers ahead of me. And my parents were both emotionally shut down. I didn't know that as a child, but now I do. They were emotionally completely not available for me or for any of the other children.

And so chaos went on in our house a lot. And none of us were really allowed to emote other than to get angry or to just stuff it. And so I learned how to be really nice. I learned how to be kind and helpful and gracious and good, right? So some of you who are clinicians are probably like, whoa, she's setting herself up for addiction. Sure enough, I ended up with an eating disorder, right? I started trying to control everything because I had no outlet to emote my emotions. I had nobody there to validate me and say, yeah, that makes me.

sense that when your brother, you know, put you into a pretzel, that that would hurt and that you would want to tell him stop. You don't like that. I wasn't allowed to do that. So I went on my own journey. I went to therapist and tried to figure out, you know, one, what was going on with me, and two, how to heal it. And unfortunately, and I would say inadvertently, because I met some lovely people, and what they did is they validated what I'll call my victim. They reinforced me to stay where I'm at and said, yeah, you have every right to feel this way. And I didn't know any better. I thought that that would help me get better, as if they said, yeah, this is reasonable why you feel the way you do. And I didn't have anyone, at least I didn't hear it in my head. Give me a transitional

bridge to move over into what I now know is true. So I would leave my therapy sessions and I would feel heard, but I'd still go back into my eating disorder behaviors and control and being really nice and helpful and friendly. I didn't really heal. My soul wasn't healing. So I went into graduate school sick. And I learned all the principals in graduate school, and I went out to work with drug addicts. It was my very first job. And as I sat across one of my very first clients, he presented in a very, what I'll call, adulating way. He was very narcissistic, and he had a tragedy happen to his son. and he became really aggressive with me when I would invite him to look at his own behavior. He's like, listen, I just had this tragedy with my son.

My son is super sick, and this isn't about me. This is about helping my son get better. And I'm like, well, what if your son doesn't get better? And he went into this place that I will introduce originally called distortion. And I'm going to talk more about distortion this afternoon. He went into a place of distortion, and he would get angry at me, which is part of his distortion. He'd get angry at me. He'd want to blame me.

He'd want to blame his wife. He'd want to blame God. He started blaming all these people. And what I learned as I worked with him is that as I gradually started confronting him with three principles, this is what I learned. Teach him how to be responsible for himself. Teach him how to be honest and teach him to be humble. So I started working with him. And he and I had a love-hate relationship.

And as he got ready to leave treatments, he was more on the hate side of me than love side of me. Five years after that, he called me up and he said, Jody, you saved my life. Now, I know it wasn't me. And he said, nobody ever confronted me. Nobody ever invited me to be responsible for my behavior. This guy's a multimillionaire. He owns numerous companies. And everybody, quite frankly, was afraid of it.

And I was, you know, naive enough or young enough, and dumb enough to not know who he was, and I would just confine him. Like, you have to take ownership. And so this is what I want to talk about today, is that this is what I've learned from my own life. As I've started to apply these principles, I have been able to heal my own soul. I've been able to hear my own spirit. Now, we're going to be talking about things that sound really familiar to you, so please don't turn me off. Like, oh, yeah, I already do that.

If you do that, you're going to miss the gems. You're going to miss the nuances that actually is where the healing is. So what are we not healing from? When people come into my office, I get a spattering of diagnoses, right? Those of you who are commissioned, you have a spattering of diagnoses. Out in the world, out in the community, we have everything from suicide to gender confusion to depression, to anxiety, to addictions, all different kinds of addiction, control issues, divorce, right? On and on and on. It seems like the world's coming apart at the seams.

Okay? This is what I'm experiencing that. Abuse. Yeah, you can pause it. Feelings of worthlessness, entitlement. John and I had a plan that I would look for his hand waving to stop it. And I've been waiting so I'm like, making sure. So, yeah, so let's unpack some of that. the

so she was she was just about to say well she kind of implies it but she's just about to say that the key to her whole system is responsibility and she explains do you want to put up the the diagram

oh I can't switch between the two okay yeah so she explains she explains that she explains that she explains that the key to her whole therapeutic system

or therapeutic approach is responsibility. I mean, she's not, she's not particularly clear cut about how all the elements fit. She sort of throws them out there and doesn't really put them together in a particularly coherent way.

But one of the things she's very clear about is that clients need to be responsible. And she tells that story about how she went into therapy and all the therapist did was validate her victim. In other words, the therapist listened to her, but the therapist didn't really hold her accountable

like she did with the addict. And so she's saying essentially, this is a dig at most mental health professionals, by the way, in the sense that what she's saying is that mental health professionals do not confront their clients with the truth, and she does, and therefore they don't hold her clients responsible for their behaviors. This, by the way, is very much,

I don't have time to get into all the mental health treatments and approaches, but this is very much an idea that originates from addiction treatment. So Jody thinks, by the way, that holding her clients responsible or having them become responsible, she wants them, by the way, to become responsible for their perceptions. Her perceptions, by the way, that would be another term for cognitions. she says that perceptions lead to emotions which lead to behaviors. That is exactly what cognitive behavioral therapy is. So she's essentially reiterating she's reiterating the basic tenets of cognitive behavioral therapy,

which is probably the primary treatment modality today in a way that she thinks is original because she's using slightly different terms and she's saying that people need to be responsible. So I want to point out that I'm not sure, I'm not sure where Jody was when her theories of psychotherapy classes were being taught. But I don't know if she was present. But this idea of responsibility is obviously key to many therapies. Like Jody, Jody thinking that this is somehow original or unique to her is absurd. That I can, I can name a few therapies right off the top. of my head that put responsibility and choice at the forefront. I just mentioned that she's

essentially using cognitive behavioral ideas, perceptions, lead to emotions, lead to bad. That's CBT. She's ripping off CBT and saying it's hers. And then this idea of choice and responsibility, existential psychotherapy, which probably finds its roots in like the 1950s, 60s, the basis of existential psychotherapy is responsibility. Some of you may remember the French philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre who said that we're all condemned to be free, that we all have to make choices in life, we're all ultimately responsible for our own behaviors. These ideas are not new to Jody Hildebrand, but she wants you to believe they are. So there's a school of thought called reality therapy, which is William Glaser,

and he has a theory called control therapy, which is all based on responsibility. His ideas originated in the 70s. Many of his ideas then were picked up by addiction treatment programs who love this idea of choice and responsibility. Every addiction treatment program focuses a huge amount on choices. So I just want to point out, There's a long history of this idea of responsibility.

This is not something new. This is obviously something that's been around for many, many years. In fact, I'm going to read a quote from the Buddha. Siddhartha, Gatama Buddha. The Buddha was alive. There's no exact agreement when the Buddha was born, but roughly 500 BC. The Buddha was here way before any therapist were.

around. This is a quote from one of the Buddhist teachings. Quote, no one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path. That's a quote about responsibility. That's from the Buddha. That's from 2,500 years ago. So I hate to tell Jody, but this idea of responsibility and truth is not hers and it's not new. And I'm just, you know, just to provide some context here that these ideas have been around for a long time. But did the Buddha use duct tape? Maybe that's where Jody has a new, maybe that's where she has a new system. Well, no.

She's going to give out merchandise. She's going to give out swag after this, by the way. She's going to be like, duct tape for everyone. Come get your duct tape. duct tape for you, duct tape for you, duct tape for you. Sorry, too soon. I'm sorry, it makes me angry, you know?

Here she is talking, here she is talking about beautiful things that we've discussed for centuries and then she did what she did to the trauma survivors in the situation, so sorry, it just is absurd to me. But I hear what you're saying. Why don't we actually

let me just finish what she says about responsibility here really quickly and we'll jump to the next spot. Depression, anxiety, defensiveness. And I could make another four lists of things that we're not healing from. Here's the key. This is the key. Responsibility.

I am responsible for three things. I've learned this over, like I said, over the last decade plus. I am responsible for my own perceptions. It's what Shannon was just talking about. It's spot on what she was saying. I'm responsible for my own perceptions, which means my thoughts, and then when I perceive, I then feel emotions. And when I feel emotions, it's because of my perceptions.

And when I perceive and then feel emotions, then I then choose to behave. And so I'm responsible for that whole process in everything. Even when I'm depressed. So when I talk to people, they'll say, yeah, yeah, that's nice and good, I have depression. I'm like, okay, wait, stop. You missed what I just said to you. And then they'll say to me, are you suggesting that I'm responsible for my depression? And I'll say, yes. I want you to know, John, that she has solved your problems.

You are responsible for your depression. Yeah, I just have to live without distortion and take responsibility. So this is like, this is like a client walking into a therapist office and saying, hey John, you know, I've got a terrible heroin addiction. I don't know what can you help me. And my response to that client is, yeah, I can help you. Just stop it. Take responsibility.

Just stop it. Stop using heroin. Okay, we're done. Adios. It's like being in second grade again, too. Right. I mean, that's a virgin. teacher. Just stop it, Lauren.

That's a version of what she's doing here. Like this idea, by the way, you're also blaming the, you're blaming the client for the problem. And that's, that's a part on the schematic I laid out. That's, that's part of the issue here is that if you're in distortion and you have an addiction mindset, you're responsible for everything. So if you get cancer, it's distortion. If you have depression, it's distortion. If you have depression, it's distortion. And it's all distortion because you're living in sin. You're a sinner.

And the way to purge yourself a distortion is to be responsible for the truth. Of course, never mind, we don't know what the truth is. But that's how you, the truth for her is God and moral perfection. It's this purity. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless

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I mean, it's so, it's so infuriating to me. As someone who's had depression on and off for my whole life, basically, since childhood, it's just, it's, and it's, it's so off the mark in the sense that there's so many issues involved in depression. There's physiological issues. There's issues that have to do with neurotransmitters in the brain. There's issues that have to do with family culture. There's issues that have to do with, yes, our perceptions. There's issues that have to do with the way we cope, the way we deal with stress. There's issues that have to do with genetics. I mean, I could go on and on. But the point is that depression is multifaceted. It's not, you can't say to someone, if you're

depressed, just stop it, take responsibility. But that's what she's doing here. And I should point out that that's one of the appeals of Jody Hildebrand, is that this stuff is so simple and so rigid and so over the top inane that it appeals to people that don't want to think and don't want to challenge what their issues are. So this is not a system of therapy that is going to invite self-reflection. and it's not going to invite self-knowledge. And those are the very things when I work with people and myself, those are the very elements that I try to bring into therapy, self-reflection, self-knowledge,

metacognition, mentalization, introspection, feedback from other people. Let me keep going. Okay. They're open. That you're willing to consider what I'm saying, because this is a brand new modality, not that responsibility is a new concept,

but the way I'm angling it towards mental health is brand new. So this is the key. But she's saying it's brand new. This is all brand new. She's telling this audience at Eternal Core that she created this. It's brand new. It's nothing like you've ever heard before. Responsibility isn't brand new.

The way she's angling it towards the mental health community is brand new. So like, I mean, that's also kind of an insult to me. You know, as someone who has a real interest in the history of ideas and the history of our field and the history of mental health and why we are, how we get to where we are now in our field, like to say that this is brand new, to say that choice and responsibility and the basic tenets of CBT, which are perception, emotion, and behavior are brand new. CBT has been around roughly since the 70s as well. This isn't brand new at all. But I guess if you're going to repackage something and sell it like it's brand new because you have a cult or because you want to make millions of dollars, then I guess this is what you do. You call it brand new. Instead of being ethical and saying, hey, my ideas are built upon this foundation.

I'm taking this from CBT. I'm taking this from existential psychotherapy. I'm taking this from whatever. I'm taking this from reality therapy. She doesn't do that. So either she doesn't know about those modalities or she doesn't care and she's trying to market this to people that are gullible

who don't, I mean, in fairness, a lot of people don't know about the stuff I'm talking about. They don't know about the history of psychotherapy and the history of it. So they can't evaluate this type of thing. So she's appealing to people that probably don't know the stuff I'm talking about and she's going to monetize that.

She's going to sell this as old wine in a new bottle. She's going to sell this as something that she created. And you'll hear later on in this speech, she says, I want to bring these ideas to the whole world because I'm the one who can change the world essentially. These ideas, because they're so novel and so innovative and so impactful, all you have to do is take responsibility for your depression and you will be cured. Let's watch. You're jumping ahead.

You're so worked up. I love it when you get worked up. Yeah. Let's hear it straight from Jody. Let's hear it straight from Jody. Job at using your choice in honesty, responsibility, and you're open. So my first relationship is always with myself. So I am responsible right here.

Another thing I learned. The only thing that I can control are my thoughts. My feelings and my behavioral choices. That is it. I can't control anything else. And my guess is that many of you have been in relationships or child-parent relationships, so you're like, oh, I wish I could control them.

I wish I could get them to do what I want to do, and you just can't. But when you try, you then disconnect from them because you go into a controlling posture. You go into a dynamic instead of a relationship with them. so people will say well well if i love this person then how do i get them to and i'm like can you can you hear how you're going down control lane you can't get them to your job is to speak the truth to them about their responsibility which is they're responsible for their own perceptions their own feelings and their old behavioral choices so no more of this you may be do this

because of you i feel if you wouldn't have done that then i'm then i'm then i'm wouldn't have done this, all of that is called distortion, which means distorting the truth. So here are my potential relationships or dynamics. I would invite each of you to look at you at your. So that is distortion. Distortion, she tells you right there. Yeah, that's her fate. What is it?

This is all about control. She's telling people to stop being controlling. And again, she's going to hand out duct tape at the end of this, you know? distortion branded duct tape. Help me understand. Well, you know, it's interesting that she began, for those of you who had the stomach to listen closely to her beginning speech, which I'm not sure all of you did, by the way,

because you got to have a pretty sturdy stomach to listen to some of her stuff. But anyway, she said at the beginning of this speech, I don't have the time code, but she said when she was a child, she grew up in a home that was chaotic, that had a lot of anger, but it was emotionally shut down. And then she said, this is really important. She said, quote, I tried to control everything because I had no outlet to emote my emotions. I tried to control everything.

So in a chaotic environment with no affect, no emotion, with the parents, presumably parents who were at the very least distant, maybe even neglectful or abusive? I don't know. Her father was a colonel in the Air Force. I don't know what that means. Does that mean that he ran the home like a little military camp? Does it mean that he was very strict?

I'm not sure. But she's telling us that there's no affect, there's no emotion in this home. And she says something really, really important there. I tried to control everything. And then she says, she sought help and that she tells us later that she resolved it on her own. I think the problem is she didn't resolve it. I think she went to graduate school.

She goes to graduate school, obviously, because she recognizes there's problems. She's struggling to express herself emotionally. She's probably, I don't know, a child of potentially neglect or something. I mean, she kind of says that. but clearly this issue of control is a major issue for her. And she gives us that clue. She plants that seed in that talk by telling us she tried to control everything. So my question is, and she seems to think she's resolved that.

So she tells us in this part of the workshop she's giving or the speech she's giving that she can only control herself. but let's let's question that notion a little bit do you have the review I sure do this is a review that was originally on the Moms of Truth channel

Conspirity got this is from their channel a link to their channel is in the description of our video as well definitely go visit them they've got a lot of the great old videos here it is I love this video guys it's just

can't make this up because they get so mad that they can't control what's going on. They turned right around and go give us a one-star review. Now, we've made it really easy for them to do that because we've been trying to make it really easy for you to give us a five-star review. We've put the link on the bottom of every single post. So all you have to do is click the link

and give us a five-star review. That's as simple as it is. But you guys aren't doing it. I think we've had five people from the last time I asked, which was probably a month ago, five out of almost 9,000, five people. Give us a review. That's five. And we've had probably 50 to 75 people give us one-star reviews.

So we started with a five, and in three months we're down to like a two. Gression and evil has dominated our world because there's too many of us that want to live in truth that are not standing up. So please, at a minimum, please. I don't understand why you won't do it. Go on to Moms of Truth. There is a link underneath every single video that says, give us a review. Click it and give us a five-star.

Please. It will get our rating back up. Please. Please, John. She said, please. She might have been so angry. I mean, the woman was, she was not happy. But she said, please, go give her that review.

Yeah, the please makes all the difference. But I mean, so, but notice, so she's asking people to give her better reviews. So my favorite part of that, by the way, is where she says they've had only five, five star reviews in like, I don't know, 75 to 100, one star reviews. She just can't fathom that, right? And so, but, but hey, this is someone who doesn't care about control. She can't control you. She can't control me. So don't worry about it.

Like do your own thing, man, write your own reviews. I can't control that. But here she is complaining about reviews and how she's not getting good enough reviews. So yeah, obviously she doesn't care what other people think, right? Because here she is making. a plea. Like it would apparently never occur to Jody that people are giving her mainly one-star reviews because they don't think she's very good. No, no.

That never seems to cross her radar. And then she, the best part about that video is she blames people for not being in control. At the very beginning, she says, right, she says this is about control. But she can't control them. I mean, it's, you, you can't, You can't control the reviews. And you know what? Neither can we. And John and I will feel frustrated sometimes when we look at our Apple reviews. But we never get on here and say, okay, guys, do it now.

Do it now. Or else I'm bringing out the duct tape. I think we realize that people are going to write reviews they want to write. If they want to write one-star reviews, they have every right to do it. If they want to do five-star, that's their choice. I can't, I truly can't, I recognize I can't control how people perceive us and how they think about us. And I mean, so let the chips fall where they may. But that's for Jody, for Jody.

No, no, not for Jody. It has no control issues whatsoever. She is urging you and begging you to leave five-star reviews because who wouldn't? I mean, clearly you know genius when you see it. Five stars, please. So. Right. Right, distortion.

Right. So, let me, as long as we're on this issue of control and how she doesn't see herself as controlling, even though she said that in her childhood, she tried to control everything, and then she got over it.

I want to quote one of the people we talk to, one of her past patients, this is a quote from one of her patients. She said, quote, with Jody, words always get weaponized. if I didn't know the right words, I would get kicked out of group or individual treatment. Tell me that. So that's not controlling.

If you're not using the right words when you're in treatment with Jody, if you're not using the right words like distortion or responsibility or choice, apparently you were risk getting kicked out of treatment. So again, to quote. So again. Yeah, that's wild. If you don't use distortion and. So you, you, so, but again, let's talk about control.

So Jody's resolved her control issues, but words get weaponized. She can't handle poor reviews. Another person told us that a client of hers, another client that was in a group told us that everyone in the group starts to parrot Jody because they want her attention, but they're also scared of her too. So again, no control issues there. Like this is someone who's pulling for people to, I don't know, to admire her, to bask in her intelligence in her groups.

So she wants people to parrot her. If you don't use the right words, you get thrown out a group. Words are getting weaponized. If you don't give a five-star review, you get admonished on YouTube. We've learned that some people, people would do the groups together. And we'll talk about that more next week, but that she wouldn't even be on the group calls, but she would have everybody call to validate one another. That was like a thing. But I think you're right. Like what she wants is everyone to parrot her, validate her,

get these groups together and repeat after me. And, you know, you will not be in distortion. You will seek truth. Let's, uh, let's go back to this. If that's okay, this video, John. But you have to believe, and when she gives this talk, you have to believe her that when she says that she can't control anyone, she really means it. And that she resolved all of her control issues. But anyway, so I think we have to move ahead a little bit. Can you go to 1258? That's where I am. I'm there.

So everything comes down to your choice. I love choice. When I finally figured out, and again, this took a lot of years. It wasn't just, you know, bang, I got. it but when I finally figured out that my healing resides inside me oh my goodness I was like I want to tell everybody I want to tell everybody like guess what like you don't need all these extra you know interventions if you understand about the power of choice and the power of honest responsible and humble so you either get to choose truth which is honest responsible and humble or you choose

something called distortion let's look at truth first So truth does incorporate being honest, responsible, and humble. And when I say that, you're like, God, what does that mean? I think I'm honest. If you want to learn what honest, responsible, humble means, listen to my podcast. Come to a class. Let me teach you. Let me hone you in on the nuances of what I'm talking about.

Because it is hard work to be honest, responsible, and humble. It is hard work. And the masses don't live that way. So truth is this. truth is lasting. This is the characteristics of truth. Truth is about things that are lasting, things are eternal, things are objective, things that are factual, unchangeable and constant. Okay? So every time I have an experience, which you're having thousands of experiences all day, thousands of them. This morning, I got up and I don't know where everybody came from,

but for me, there was about, I don't know, three inches of snow in my car. And I am not a fan of snow. I lived here for 25 years, but then I moved down south, and I'm like, yay, no more snow. And then I woke up this morning and there was all the snow. So I'm with my hand and my skirt, you know, shoveling the snow off. And I started having distorted perceptions. And I started going away from truth and started going into distortion.

And guess what I felt inside me? my soul started getting depressed. My soul started feeling sad, and this isn't fair, and why did these things happen to me? And my gosh, the first time I come back up to Utah County, it's snowing. God doesn't love, I mean, all that stuff that I would call distortion. Okay? Or I could look at that experience and say, okay, what's the truth? The truth is that there's three inches of snow on my car, period, at the end.

Yeah, we're good. Cut it. So as I was wiping snow off the car, I'm like, oh, it's- Did she just admit she's depressed, by the way, when she said I was wiping off the snow and I started to feel depressed, but I shut it down. Because that's what a good therapist does, right? Shut off that feeling.

Yeah. Well, also, also, again, I mean, this gets into questions about truth, right? Like you and I were up in Salt Lake for Thanksgiving, not with your family not too long ago, and there was snow. And I went outside to wipe the snow off the windshield like Jody did. And I also had on flip flops because I didn't anticipate snow. So my feet were cold. And when I, I didn't have gloves because I didn't know it was going to snow.

So I wiped the windshield off. I just wiped it off with my hand. And you know what? I was cold. Like my hand was cold. My feet were cold. I didn't necessarily complain about it. But like it hurt.

So I mean, my truth was that I was a little upset and my hands were cold and I was uncomfortable. So I guess I was living in distortion. Like, you know, is the truth that it's okay for me to have cold hands that hurt or am I just whining? And the truth has to be that I was whining and I needed to get over it and just recognize that somehow wiping a cold, you know, snow off a windshield is no reason for concern. Right. So I don't know. Just repress it, Dr. John, as Lotus Flowers says, just repress. Yeah, I was repressing it.

Right. So, so again, like there, you know, there's different ways to interpret things. You know, it's not, Jody had one experience, I had a different experience that was the same behavior, but we both interpreted it completely different. So does she have the truth? Should I have gone to Jody and said, hey, Jody, you know, my hand got really cold and I was actually kind of upset, and I didn't want to go through that experience. It didn't ruin my day, that's true.

But like, did I need her to get me out of distortion? I don't know, did you? Well, I think now maybe I did. You've got to get truth with a capital T. But she's getting to something really important here in her worldview. And that is that she's dividing everything into truth and distortion. And we're going to learn shortly that when she talks about truth, what she really means is God.

And when she talks about distortion, what she really means is sin and or possibly Satan. and for those of you who have not watched the Jesse interview with John DeLinn on Mormon stories, please go watch that because Jesse really flushes out the details of why that's true. So we have a lot of that too here. Just let me know when you ever want to play. Could you play a little bit of Jesse talking about that? Yeah, which part? The, I don't.

So about distortion? No, about Let's see, being physically uncomfy? Nope. Her belief system? Yeah. Okay, I have a couple of those. Yep.

Okay, we're going to play in both then, okay? Yeah, that's good. Okay. Here we go. Beliefed this too. It's just you can convince people to do almost anything and I think she is proof of that but yeah she fully jody would the thing that's on top of all this she would criticize the church in ways of like oh she she hates men she hates men

she thinks all men are pretty much all men vast majority of men are evil and uh including church leaders she thought church leaders were idiots and that she had the answer that she understood it um i don't know this is definitely speculation i just want to say i don't know this for certain but i'm I'm fairly confident saying she probably was a part of the whole female women should have the priesthood movement. I'm certain that she was a part of that. Ordean women, or didn't I'm certain. Like honestly, if Jody was born a man, like it's terrifying to think about what power she would have had. Like, easily, easily. But the fact that she was a woman, I think also because of the way

the church is structured, kept her from doing more damage. But she, yeah, she believed that, like, again, like she believed that her work, that she was combating Satan every day in preparation for the second coming. And she believed, because my grandfather had a patriarchal blessing saying that he was going to work directly for Jesus on this earth. And so he always believed that the second coming was going to happen in his lifetime. But she used kind of that patriarchal, that language to also fuel her stuff. of like the second coming is so close.

I'm like going to be the one of the people that, you know, welcomes God back or- Usher's in the second coming of Jesus. Yeah. But again, these are not, these are not theoretical. These are not like hypothetical. She believed these in literal, actual, this is all very literal to her.

That God literally was going to come and thank her for all of her hard work. and all of all of the good that she has done because she is fighting tooth and nail on the front lines of Satan. And how do you argue with that? I have one more. Do you want me to keep going? I think they go together. They go together. So we know that she's, let's just set the stage here.

She has, she is believing that she's going to usher in the second coming. Does this sound familiar? And Jesse tells us with certainty that she literally. believes this. The key of like, maybe this is worse than this. Like everything and and and then that was just exponentially worse with Jody where there is only good and evil. There's no in between and most things fall into the category of evil.

So but that was like the thing that Jody is so good at is that she she's so good at seeing her victims. like using what's there already. So she saw me as an angry teenager. And so she's like, I could use this. You know, like, oh, you're angry because you're evil. You're sad because you have so much sin inside of you. Oh, you've kissed girls.

Oh, my God, you are just Satan himself. And I don't say this hyperbolicly. Like she genuinely believed, literally believed that Satan was working through me. Your mom. Your mom. My aunt. Oh, okay. Okay. And she literally believed that Jesus was working through her and that she was fighting Satan on a daily basis, not just with me, but also with her clients. And she would tell me that all the time that these men that she was talking, but specifically the men, that she was combating Satan on earth every day. And that was like, you know, and again, I believed all of this.

So I was like, wow, like my aunt's powerful. Like she's fighting Satan. She is fighting Satan. Yeah. And so if you, can you put up the diagram again then? So let's go back to if you can enlarge it. a little bit. So let's go back to my schematic of her belief system. I think if you look at the bottom, I put, so you have distortion on one end, truth on the other. So everything here is binary.

Right. There's, there's really, there's, you know, there's no gray, there's no middle ground. This is all about either truth or distortion, one or the other. And I think this is where it becomes very day bell like that in some ways she's she's talking about if you look at the bottom of my of my diagram here i put darkness versus light evil versus good zombies versus purity or pure souls i think in the end that's really what this is about so jesse tells us jesse really informs us what's behind this belief system she's trying to save souls she's trying to find some degree of moral purity or perfection, even with her therapy clients. That's what's underwriting or that's the foundation of her belief system.

That it's Daibel-like in the sense that she doesn't, she's not as overt as Chad Daybell in saying that, you know, there's a scale of darkness and a scale of light. And if you cross a certain level of darkness, then you're a zombie and you need to be eliminated. But there's something similar in the sense that she's seen. everyone, all are patients as addicts, as sinners, and that they just need to come to the light. They need to find God or Jesus and purify themselves, and then they can potentially make it to the New Jerusalem or they can participate in the Second Coming.

And so I think you have some similarities there. And, you know, the problem with a system or a belief system like this is that because it's so extreme in some ways, there's always the potential for harm. When your view of the world becomes so rigid and so one-dimensional that you don't see other options and you think you're trying to save souls and the souls of children in particular, I guess, in this case, then you're willing to take extreme actions to get the outcome you want. And that is why this belief system is so insidious potentially, and that is why this belief system can create a lot of harm.

Yes. Because you have someone who, although she's using words like responsibility and choice and she's kind of trying to cloak this in therapy speak, the real philosophical assumptions behind those ideas are religious. Yes. And they're about sin and sinners. They're about Satan. They're about moral perfection and God and Jesus.

And that's what's driving this. So distortion, if you really break it down, distortion is about sin. If you're distorted and you have a distorted view of the world, you're a sinner or you're aligned with Satan. And if you have the truth, you're aligned with God and Jesus. And you have a certain degree of moral perfection. Of course, which is not.

not saying, and what Jesse just told us is that Jody's here to let you know that she's going to rescue the day and maybe even rescue the planet because she can translate truth for us and she can get us all to be a little more responsible and to make better choices and wait for it to set really good boundaries. That's a big part of her system, by the way. Everybody that's interacted with Jody uses the term distortion or boundaries. Never heard about boundaries before. She must have really, really created.

She really dug deep in her imagination to come up with boundaries, because I've never heard that before. But on the diagram we have here, if you can enlarge it a little bit, I put a comet next to boundaries. I put, so you have, in the schematic of her beliefs, you have truth, which leads to responsibility. responsibility is based on perceptions, emotions, and behaviors, according to Jody. Also, if you're responsible, you're honest, you make good choices and you set good boundaries.

The reason why boundaries are important, and she uses the term we talk to, again, we talk to some of her clients. They use the term hold boundaries all the time. If you hold boundaries, the reason that's important is because if you hold boundaries, then you hold God's truth. if you relinquish boundaries, then you relinquish God's truth and you fall into sin again. So that's why she makes such a big deal of boundaries because she sees boundaries and choices. She sees all of this as being aligned with God and moral perfection. And the failure to achieve truth, to achieve God leads to sin.

It leads to a victim mindset, which is, by the way, what she blames Jesse and she blames everyone. who doesn't agree with her or doesn't follow her system of thought. She blames them for their mental illness, for their physical health. She blames them for everything. That's her MO. And so if you're distorted and you're a sinner, you have a victim mindset. You don't take responsibility for your life. You make poor choices.

And you have a problem setting good boundaries. So that's the distortion side of the equation, the true side I just went. over. So in a nutshell, this is my initial analysis of Jody Hilda Brand's belief system, her approach to therapy, and how and why this particular view of the world or worldview can lead to harm. Thank you. It's sounding too familiar to me. It's upsetting me. It reminds me. much a day bell and these people are connected. I want you to know. Yeah, no, they're not connected.

We have a lot more to cover, but I'm going to go on a very quick little soapbox for a second. I've been honest when it's appropriate about my faith background, how I was raised, and my background in Mormonism. And some people have written me and said, oh, so you are now covering all these Mormon crimes. you must be anti-Morman. And I want to say something to that really quickly before we keep going. First off, I'm not the one committing the crimes, and I've never seen so many crimes committed by LDS members so quickly.

So this is completely unexpected and shocking. And people have brought it up, and maybe one day we'll talk about it. John hasn't wanted to breach that subject yet, but here I am his wife doing it for him. We'll talk about that soon. But we always talk about you are a sane or as sick as the secrets you keep. Jody wants you to stuff everything down and to control the narrative and to not talk about it. John and I set out to do our podcast to stop these things from happening. The daybell case got me in a way I have never been able.

I couldn't get JJ entirely out of my mind. I could not get what happened to them because of a belief system out of my mind. And so we said over and over again on our podcast. If we can stop this from happening again, it is important. We want to help. We are here to educate, to bring awareness. How does this keep happening again and again and again? And so for the people that think that I'm just reporting now on all of these crimes done by Mormons,

because I've got something to drill in and I'm, you know, am I mad? I'm very mad. Am I mad to see this happening again and again? And again, in a faith that raised me, very mad, very angry. And so the last thing I'm going to do is to stop talking about it. When I saw this video of Jody Hildebrandt saying these things, when I saw Jesse's interview on Mormon stories, the thing that made what I was thinking is,

let's not stop talking about this. when I see her talking at Tom Harrison's conference, where Tim Ballard is also speaking, who's, you know, rescuing victims himself, and we see children and victims being harmed again and again and again, I am not going to be quiet. So I don't know why I'm saying this right now. This was not planned. This was totally spontaneous. Seeing you explain this police system, John, just really riled me up.

and I have received so many emails, you're trying to hurt the church. No, I am trying to get this to stop happening because I don't know what the hell is going on. But these people are continuing to do this and children are being harmed. And I'm going to talk about it until it stops happening. So if a case happens every week, I'm on it.

That's all. I'm done. So should I go back to the Eternal Core video, babe? Well, let me just add something to what you said that this doesn't have to do with a particular religion. I mean, some of the people we happen to cover are Mormon, but this isn't about Mormonism. This is about beliefs and how beliefs drive behavior and how they drive behavior in a harmful way. I have it through this whole presentation today, I haven't even mentioned the word Mormon. No, you haven't. I brought it up. Right. And I'm making a point. I don't have to mention Mormonism because we're not attacking Mormonism.

If this is about larger, bigger picture, which is what we typically talk about, bigger picture, this is about beliefs that are harmful to human beings and children. And that's what we're really trying to examine. If those happen to be a part of a particular religion, then that's part of the story. but it's not the whole story. And if people want to focus on that particular aspect of the story, that's their choice. We can't stop that. People are going to think, but I don't feel, I don't believe in any way that you and I are bashing any particular religion. That's not our agenda. That's never been our agenda.

If we wanted to do that, you would know clearly that we were doing that. Yeah. Right. Thank you. we do need to conclude we have child care so let's go back to let's go back to the lori rleynne or to the lori hilda brant Freudian slip do you want me to go back to the lorry she said some of the most important things coming up that we still have let's go to the eternal core video 25 minutes and 20 seconds let's wrap with that okay this is her end game right babe yep 25 roughly 25 20

Okay, 2520. We'll start at 2516. And you are scheduled as am I to have hard, difficult experiences. And you are being asked by your maker to stay inside truth. If you will stay inside truth, you will not become ill. You just won't. I know some people in the audience are probably like, I don't know about that. Try me out. you start living in truth.

I don't know anybody who lives in truth that is emotionally, spiritually sick. I don't know anybody. I don't know thousands of people who have done this. My desire is to spread throughout the whole entire world that teaches many people and therapists and mental health professionals and health professionals who want to start empowering their clients.

Regardless of where your client has been, if they've had traumas or abuses, they can heal. If they have sinned, if they have them making choices, such as acting out an addiction, acting out contrary to their value system, if that is why they're having distortion, this can heal that as well.

And then there's a third category called life. Life just shows up like the cat underneath the car. Who puts that there? Right? Life. So outcomes of other people's choices have affected us. My own choices affect me, and then life shows up. That's how experience shows up. And inside all those experiences, you are responsible every second of every single day to be

introspective and pay attention. Am I in truth or distortion? I am not so much now because I've been doing it for 10 years, but I used to say to myself, where am I? Where am I? I'm like, I'm in distortion. And then my distortion would say, and I'm staying here. I have a right to be here.

When you're saying that, you're in trouble. You're in distortion. That is the message that I want to share with you and just testify. I started making podcasts four years ago, and they are now 23 countries around the world, 700,000 downloads in four years with zero advertising because this message is resonating with people. Those people who want to take their power back

and empower themselves to heal themselves, you can do that through living, using your agency, inside this place of truth and understanding what distortion is and it's a vicious attack on each and every one of you and how you can combat it by seeing, okay, is this in truth or is this in distortion? Distortions characteristics are, I'm dishonest, I'm irresponsible, and I'm not being humble. That's how you know you're in distortion. Truth is about I'm being honest, responsible, and humble, and characteristics of truth are also the facts,

things that are objective, things are eternal, things are everlasting. So you can take any experience and go, okay, where am I? Because there's only two places for you to go. There's not a third option. Thank you very much. Well, there you go. Yeah, let me just make a quick comment on that. There always is a third option.

And that's part of the problem here, right? Is that getting caught in this kind of dichotomous belief system that she sees is the truth. That's the problem. That's what makes this extreme. That's what potentially leads to harming other people. I want to play one more thing by Jesse and then one more clip by Jody. That's okay.

She believes this. This is the thing that she fully believes in her own bullshit. She believes that she is inspired by God. Jody. Jody. Jody. And so when you believe, when you have that, level of delusions of grandeur, you are so powerful and so convincing to people.

And she, and when you, when you, when you, when you, uh, preface it as a, I'm doing this because I'm saving their soul in a, in a, in a system and in a culture that, I mean, she's just playing right into it. She's just playing right into those hands of like, of course I want my child's soul to be saved. Of course. Yeah, no, pornography. Pornography.

And then I want to play one more thing by Jody. Because if you want to know where distortion came from, she tells us right here. Is it up? No. It's not up. Let's see. Here we go.

So many of you know this word is shame. I started using the shame word for, probably, I don't know, five years, and people were having the hardest time wrapping their head around shame, what shame was. And I was teaching about shame, and I went to God and I said, people can't understand the word shame. Do you have another word? Can you give me another word? And I heard one day distorting the truth. And I was like, brilliant. Distortion. I just thought that was important because she tells us right there where distortion came from. she prayed to God and believed she had a vision

and that God pretty much told her to use distortion. As Jessie says, she believes this. She is truly believing it. And as she's stating, her end goal is what John said. He ended on. John and I always wonder, what's her end goal? What's her motive? Right?

The hidden motive. What is the hidden motive here? And she tells us in this speech, she wants to bring her therapy to the, world to the world. She actually states the world. She wants everybody to have this, that her podcast almost had a million downloads. And Jesse told us that she partnered with a mom influencer on purpose, that she has this goal of bringing this message of distortion and her swag of duct tape to the world. And that's what she's trying to do. And she's not going to let anything

stop or even pretending she has a life-threatening illness that's keeping her in the hospital right now. But I guess that was really important to me to share is that's what's hidden here and that's what's really important. Her end goal is pretty much world domination with her ridiculously simplistic therapy ideas. Right, because nobody in the world understands that we have to make choices or the responsibility matters. So I mean, there's there's so much grandiosity there, obviously, to think that somehow the world needs this therapeutic approach and that it's going to make a difference, as if every therapist on the planet has done nothing prior to Jody. And now Jody's giving us this gift that is now going

to change the world. Because clearly all us mental health professionals don't know what we're doing. We haven't figured it out until now. And now that we know, that clients are responsible for their depression, now we can solve all the world's problems. Your bookshelves are filled with, you know, some of the world's most distinguished philosophers, but if we had only known Jody Hildebrand was at the Eternal Core Conference,

we could have just settled this a long time ago. I could have saved thousands of dollars in book crosses. And this is the most eerie thing about Jody's beliefs right here. Someone that believed this, too, it's it's just you can convince people to do almost anything and i think she is proof of that but yeah she fully jody would the thing that's on top of all this she would criticize the church in ways of like that was the wrong clip i must have deleted the clip where she says essentially that if you are in distortion her solution is to make you physically uncomfortable this is where the duct tape comes in

and the rope and the starving. And all of that happened to Jesse too. Right. And the purpose of that, the purpose of that type of behavior, that type of physically aggressive behavior, I'm trying to be careful with my words here. The purpose of that is to either cast out sin or to get a confession about what a sinner you are

so that you can then cleanse that sin away. And that's what she tries to do with Jesse. She subjects Jesse to physical punishments. She duct tapes her. She kidnaps her. She drives her up to a mountain. She makes her run up and down the mountain for six hours to the point of exhaustion. Because she wants Jesse to confess that she's a sinner, that she's an addict and she's done all of these things wrong.

And she sees that as somehow bringing her to truth. Yes, bringing Jesse to truth. And so actually, if we're making a Daybell analogy, I think that this idea of castings in Daebel, casting out evil spirits, casting out zombies with Charles, like Charles Vallow and Ned Schneider. It's similar to that in a sense that there's this belief somehow that you can purge this evil through, in Jesse's case, through physical exhaustion, through tremendous. experiences through somehow torture in a way. I mean, in some ways, that's similar to like all the inquisitions in the Middle Ages that tried to force confessions by putting you on all these torturous devices. It's not that different from the Spanish Inquisition

or many of the Inquisitions that existed in the Middle Ages during the Crusades that wanted to prove that their brand of religion was the correct one. Yes. Thank you to Jesse, who has come forward on Mormon stories. Again, the links to every video we use are in the description of this video. We thank our fellow content creators who give us helpful feedback in creating our analysis. And so please go visit their pages as well because we are using their videos. We want to thank our own interviewee, Adam Steed, for also bravely coming forward and sharing his experience

and where her license was suspended for a while. Jody's and came back. And we thank all of the victims that have come forward and shared more. If you have anything to add to our investigation into this case, please email us at hidden true crime info at gmail.com. We are listening. And we will be back next week with more because we still haven't talked about Ruby. About Ruby.

together their superpower or their power couple name is either Rudy but someone suggested it just be Joby maybe so or Roby or Ruby or Ruby but we'll be talking about Ruby soon so everyone do us a favor the greatest thing great support you can give us is to subscribe to our channel hit that like button but to subscribe means the world and also for additional interviews, additional episodes.

You can head to patreon.com. It's a way you can support us and where we give back to you. And we'll also be posting that belief system chart. CC, great idea on Patreon for you guys to all delve into. And look, the chart that Dr. John put together about Jody's belief system. And I want to end with a few ideas if I can do that. I know we're really pressed for time here. I want there's a there's a classic study from

1976 by arthur green he's a psychiatrist he wrote an article called a psychodynamic approach to the study and treatment of child abusing parents he looked at 60 cases of child abuse and 60 cases of non-abuse and he compared the groups and here's what he i'm just going to summer i just give him a brief summary of his one of his thoughts about parents that tend to be abusive

and this is a quote. This is from page 420 of the Green article. So the parents that fit the abuse category, he says, quote, they exhibit heightened narcissism and ambivalence. Because of their need to maintain a positive facade, they are unable to integrate the negatively perceived aspects of themselves with the more acceptable elements of their personality.

These undesirable traits are then projected or externalized onto others. The projection of these negative parental attributes onto the child causes the child to be misperceived and scapegoated and permits the parents to rationalize their assaultiveness towards the child. I think that's a really great summary of some of the causes for this type of behavior. that there's a projective element in the sense that if there's parts of ourselves that we don't like or that we want to get rid of or we don't want to acknowledge or look at,

we project them onto, in many cases, the most vulnerable members of our society, which are children. So if, for example, I feel like I'm a sinner or I feel like I'm ugly, and I don't mean physically ugly, more like emotionally ugly, then I may see those qualities. in someone else, in a child, for example, that with the case of Jesse, let's say that I feel like I'm a sinner and I see someone like Jesse who's a troubled kid and vulnerable. So then I start seeing them as a sinner instead of myself instead of looking at myself and why I feel

that way, I project that onto someone else and then I act out in a harmful way to that person because I'm trying to get rid of that feeling in myself. by calling someone a sinner and then punishing them for that quality that I have that I'm projecting onto this other person, I am engaging in harmful behavior to the other person. It really is behavior I need to own. It's my behavior. It's my issue. But I'm not willing to look at it.

And that's what Green's saying is that one of the causes of this type of behavior is that there's a type of projection going on. where whatever that negative component of myself is that I don't want to look at, I'm putting it on a child or I'm putting it on someone else, and then I'm harming that person so that I can feel like I'm in control, and I can feel like I don't have to deal with or experiencing that quality of myself. And on those grounds, I'm just going to, I'm going to end, if it's okay with you, I'm going to end with a couple of quotes. since I started with this idea of the Hippocratic Oath,

I'm going to end with a couple of similar ideas that I think would have prevented all of this from happening and would have prevented all of the potential harm that some of these people have caused. We've heard a lot of stories about Jody doing enormous harm to many couples, many marriages, many people. I can't confirm that. We've heard it to us

because we can't confirm it, it's still anecdotal. But let's say some of that's true. I'm going to end with a couple of quotes. The first quote is another quote by the Buddha. It's a simple quote. The Buddha said, if you truly, quote, if you truly loved yourself, you could never hurt another. Wow.

And because I'm going to come full circle here because we started with the Hippocratic oath and because we're largely talking about religious beliefs, I'm going to end with a quote from Luke, 423. This is a quote from Jesus. It's really simple. Could have prevented all of this. The quote from Jesus is, physician, heal thyself. Full stop.

Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Babe. Until next week, everyone. Thank you again for. subscribing for liking. And for those new to our Patreon, we'll be sharing later tonight, as soon as we get the babysitter off, we'll be sharing your chart about Jody's beliefs. Okay.

Yeah. Great. And I'll remind everyone that we have my book club coming up this Wednesday. Oh, thank you. We're reading a book by a British psychiatrist. It's a great introductory textbook on forensic psychology. or psychiatry. So I urge everyone to join us.

And you join also through patreon.com slash hidden chukal. Right. You can join us on the book club chat this Wednesday, 6 p.m. Pacific time. The book is the mind of a murderer by Richard Taylor. And I will look forward to seeing

all of our Patreon folks Wednesday night. Yeah. And the link to Patreon, for those missed it, is also in the description of this video. Patreon.com. slash hidden true crime. Thanks, everyone. We'll see ya. All right. Good night. Thanks, guys. Hello, Hidden Jems. It's Lauren with Hidden a True Crime podcast. As a TV reporter, I learned the art of visual storytelling. So if you're like me, you enjoy listening, but also

viewing. You can actually head to our YouTube channel, Hidden True Crime, to watch these interviews. Hit the subscribe button for surprise lives and breaking news. And for exclusive content, thinks Dr. John and I only dare say behind a paywall, become a Patreon member at patreon.com slash hidden true crime. You'll find bonus episodes, early releases, and insider info. Thank you for your endless support. Let's be honest. Buying cannabis shouldn't be complicated, sketchy, or low quality. That's why I want to tell you about mood.com. That's M-O-O-O-D.com. Mood ships federally legal cannabis straight to your door. No medical. card, no hassle, and here's the kicker. The quality is better than anything you'll find at your

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