Hidden True Crime - RUBY FRANKE/JODI HILDEBRANDT CASE - Victim of Jodi, ADAM STEED, PART ONE

Episode Date: September 20, 2023

August 30, 2023--a brave 12-year-old boy escapes a house of torture in Southern Utah --rescuing himself and his 10-year-old sister. A neighbor feeds the emaciated boy and calls 911. The children's mother YouTube Celebrity Ruby Franke, and Ruby's therapist Jodi Hildebrandt, are arrested 250 miles north in Springville, Utah and charged with 6 counts of aggrevated child abuse. Dr John Matthias and reporter Lauren Matthias have been covering this story since the arrests, and will continue to bring you the very latest in this heartwrenching story that sounds all too familiar. We start with Adam Steed--a man who was Jodi Hildebrandt's patient back in 2007, and listen to his heart wrenching interview in two parts ...This is PART 1 To learn more about Adam Steed and his victimization from Jodi Hildebrandt: https://tinyurl.com/22kcfkpe Adam Steed v Boy Scouts of America: https://law.justia.com/cases/idaho/supreme-court-civil/2007/steed.html Thank you for subscribing to our podcast and to our YouTube channel LAUREN MATTHIAS has worked as an anchor and reporter for ABC, NBC, and FOX News in East Idaho, Boise, Idaho and Salt Lake City, Utah. She spent a decade reporting on a diverse range of topics from high profile crimes to Presidential visits. Most recently, she reported for Salt Lake City’s ABC affiliate News4Utah. In 2015 she received the Idaho State Broadcaster’s Association Best Reporter award. She left the reporting world to produce the Hidden True Crime Podcast along with her husband Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist. DR. JOHN MATTHIAS is a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with 30 years’ experience in both clinical and forensic work. He serves as an expert witness for the federal government and has consulted on numerous high-profile cases for District Attorney’s offices and defense attorneys in several states. In the forensic area, Dr. Matthias has developed expertise in personality assessments, hidden behavioral motivations, complex trauma and criminal psychology. In the clinical realm, he has worked with numerous victims. He received his Master’s degree in Marriage, Family and Child counseling, as well his doctorate degree, from the University of Southern California. Dr. Matthias graduated with honors in philosophy from Princeton University, and he won the prestigious McCosh Thesis prize while there. In high school he graduated valedictorian from a large public high school in Chicago where he was chosen to participate in a ground-breaking valedictory study that continues to this day. Dr. Matthias has been an adjunct assistant professor in the University of Nevada Las Vegas clinical psychology doctoral program since 2007. He supervises UNLV doctoral students on forensic assessments, clinical case formulation, and various therapeutic approaches to clinical work. Your support helps us produce these podcasts/videos. We have some big plans to explore the true crime terrain in a way that no one else has attempted. HIDDEN: A TRUE CRIME PODCAST is: CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY REINVENTED. Join us on a journey into the darkest recesses of the human mind and the unconscious motivations that drive human behaviors in order to understand the world and ourselves. WEBSITE: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ TO SUPPORT: https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime https://cash.app/$hiddenTruecrime Join our channel to get access to perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBp03toXz-WZ6gSt7YtSdEg/join Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm going to bring you a lot more here. The bars are up and down. Someone just arrived so I got distracted. I'm wanting to make sure I'm not doing anything that is upsetting anyone in this very private, secluded. Well, you know, it's a high-end neighborhood here among the Red Rock. So forgive me for getting a little bit worried about anyone coming up. It looks like someone might have just been coming past the house. So I'm going to show you guys this house.

I'm going to flip you around and I'm going to tell you what we know. but again, I'm going to bring you more later tonight. So subscribe and hit notifications. This is the house, okay? This is a $3 million home, 5,000 square foot where a brave 12-year-old boy escaped. He had duct tape on his wrists and ankles, according to the probable cause,

wrists and ankles, and went to a neighbor's home. We don't know what neighbor. And there, because he was so malnourished and had deep lacerations from rope, by the way, he had duct tape on him, but it was rope. It was rope that caused the lacerations. So they called police. Police came.

He actually had extended medical care because of the deep lacerations. They find in the house, the police go over, they find in the house a 10-year-old girl. Ruby Frankie's 10-year-old daughter. The daughter will not talk to medical for four hours. Four hours. That to me says there's brainwashing and fear going on. After four hours of talking to police and medical, she finally allows medical. She's also malnourished.

She's also hospitalized. Six counts of aggravated abuse, a child abuse for both. Jody Hildebrandt, who is the owner of this home, Jody Hildebrand, as well as their mother, Ruby Frankie. Now, again, I'm going to replace this probably with some better footage because I'm live, but I just want to go live quickly before I go grab a shuttle home. I'm going to go head back to my family tonight, and then I'll get you the better footage and show you around really in detail.

But this is important. I just want to explain something. This house here in southern Utah is in Ivan's Utah. This is where the children were found. This is where the little 10-year-old girl refused medical care, where they have put in the charging documents that there was physical torture. They also referred to in the charging documents for both Ruby and Jody that they were jeopardy. jeopardizing the children's lives.

Where they were arrested at Ruby's house, so this is Jody Hildebrand's house, Ruby Frankie's business partner, connections coat therapist, whatever she is. I haven't figured out if it's an MLM, a cult, a group,

all of the above. They were arrested in Springville. Springville is not close. Springville is in Utah, but Utah's a big state. Springville is 230 miles north. It's we're talking We're talking three hour

Three and a half hours away So the kids were abandoned And I don't think people fully grasped They were found in a completely different place The reason that Jody Was charged is because the kids were in her direct care At her house and she said Oh watch out be careful the kids

The kids you know don't they shouldn't be around anyone Which shows she knew about the abuse We've had Adam Steed on our channel Explain that that's what Jody does She points the finger at other people and pretends she's the victim and woe is me. I'm scared of these people. It's not going to work in the situation. In fact, it shows she knew about the abuse.

And then you've got her, and then you've got Rudy, a root. I keep saying Rudy because Jody and Ruby combined. It's their power couple name. We might as well call them Rudy because what a couple they are. Ruby, Frankie, of course, is charged because she's the children's mother, but two days before the arrest, which happened August 30th, Wednesday. Today's Thursday, Wednesday, August 30th. was when a brave little boy escaped and ran to a neighbor's asking for food.

So two days prior to that, Ruby is in the basement or the downstairs room, which is also confusing. These houses, these one-story homes, I've been in a few of them. They do not usually have basements. They do not usually have upstairs. They're just this one-story secluded among, you know, modernized adobe-style homes sitting among the red rock. They try, the homes are built to blend in with the nature that surrounds them. they usually don't have downstairs room so i'm really confused by that too i want to know what that downstairs room does she really have a downstairs room because again i've been in about three or four

these houses there are usually no downstairs rooms this house was built in 2017 jody purchased the land in 2013 i don't know if she planned a little downstairs room i don't know but anyway i don't remember what I was talking about before I got focused on the downstairs room. Oh, two days, downstairs room, according to charging documents, Ruby Frankie and Jody are in the basement filming a YouTube video which shows the police and the charging documents that Ruby knew about the abuse too, meaning they, according to the interviews that they've done with the kids, they were clearly tied up for some time and Ruby was in this house two days prior to the arrest and knew of the abuse. Well, then they leave them, according to

To the police, you know, they were probably tied up for days if they were able to say, look, Ruby knew of this abuse happening because she was in the house two days prior doing a video in the downstairs basement. They were in the direct care, though, of Jody Hildebrand. I'm going to bring you more. I actually have been talking longer than I thought. I always do on lives because I see everybody here. I have a shuttle to catch so that I don't, so I'm able to go home, it's been a couple days. but I'm going to bring you a lot more. I have been here again for 48 hours.

I have a lot of footage. So hit subscribe, hit notification, and then this Saturday. Do not miss our show this Saturday. And please watch Adam Steed's interview on our channel and then go to Mormon stories and watch the niece's interview. The thing that concerns me, Springville, by the way, is where Chad Daybell's from. The thing that's the most frightening about the niece's interview today, Jesse is her name. She says she was abused by Jody growing up that she lived with Jody.

Her parents convinced Jody convinced her parents to go, you know, keep her out of trouble. And she was abused and duct taped. She says that, that Jody really believes that she's sent by Jesus Christ and she's preparing for the second coming. Does this sound familiar? In no way am I saying that they're with Chad Daybell.

I'm not saying that at all. But, but for those that have followed our Daybell coverage and why John and I are so interested in this case and we're digging deep and we see how layered it is because you guys know that we have been saying from the very beginning we do not want this to happen again we do not why why did it happen the first time to tylee and j jay jay why does it happen and we are seeing so many similarities and that this the jodi's been getting away with this for years and years and that people liked her that we have people writing us saying that she was a great therapist be kind to her leave her alone but we're hearing

from victims right and left too saying what she did to them was diabolical and now that's Now we're hearing from the niece that she believes she's sent from Jesus Christ and preparing for the second coming and she really believes that she's the smartest one in the room and she knows what she's doing. They said in the charging documents that the children's lives were jeopardized, that we're lucky that this 12 year old boy escaped because it could have been an even worse story. That maybe there could have been murder charges and not aggravated child abuse charges. I don't want to see this happening and again again.

So I am here in St. George or Southern Utah, Ivins to be exact, I am in Ivans at this moment, covering this case. I'm going to go. I'm going to head back home and then plan on Saturday. I've got to go regroup with Dr. John, explain everything I've learned. It's been a lot. Thank you for everyone that has reached out. And we'll be in touch. I want to show you again this house. I'm going to flip it around so you guys can see it as I take off. It's listed as a $3 million home. This place is gorgeous, guys. It's beautiful. You don't see. You don't see. You don't see scenery like this. Excuse me, sneeze. Again, 5,000 square feet, three bedrooms, five baths, purchased. Again, the land was purchased 2013. She built in 2017. From what we're gathering so

far, she and Ruby got together on 2019-ish. So at first I wondered if that's where she got her money was Ruby, but not so. We'll be figuring out more. Thanks guys. We'll see ya. podcast. A forensic psychologist and a journalist explore the hidden motives behind unthinkable crimes while examining our deepest fears along the way. I was a victim of sexual child abuse and Boy Scouts of America, and I came forward as a 14-year-old boy and stood up and there was a huge cover-up and I fought against it. You know, you know the story. You mentioned you read that, but, um, Anyway, so I did a lot of advocacy work for victims of abuse.

And one thing I noticed is if these stories, like if people were abused and leaders covered it up and places where we go to trust and love cover it up, these people over the years, it's like they would go mentally ill. The trauma was just like a ghost with unfinished business just coming back to them, back to them. And one thing I had that too. And then when finally a lot of the world news, or the news started to tell this story and people started to, you know, it won the scripts award. It was like a runner up for a Pulitzer Prize. And I just saw that. And just this craziness started to leave me. That is, you know, where I tell my story and I just apologize for it all the time and feel so bad and so much shame.

And it just all started to leave me. And I probably got to live a normal life and not have to rethink this because I had vindicated this. but the right things that happened this person couldn't hurt more people the way they'd hurt me and these organizations couldn't cover it up the way they covered it up, you know? And you get this situation with Jody

and I mean, she, in my experience, was far more dangerous than the pedophile that abused me. And far, far more damaging and far more destructive. Wow. And yeah, that's a lot,

because this was a terrible thing that happened in the past. And I didn't, you know, I mean, like, she was like a whole other level. And the thing about it is she has, you know, I don't know me. I'm for sure there's hundreds of victims that were directly under her, but there's probably thousands of people that are their family members. And maybe she's got thousands of clients. I don't know of it. She has this massive amount of people that are probably,

going through this craziness, not knowing what happened to them as they were abused. And I don't want to talk about it. I'm shaking, holding the phone, even mentioning it. It's not going to make my day better. You know, it's not going to make me and my wife feel more peaceful in our baby and just be happy for the rest of the day talking about. It's really traumatizing. But the thing that I know, is I know that if we share the correct form of truth,

that people will see who this person really is and it's a hard thing to do with jody it's super difficult to do with her and and you know it'll make sense but if we share that truth and people see how bad she really is and what she's really done i hope to god that these victims of hers will start to feel less crazy and start to feel less shame and less problems and and and to me that That's worth screwing up my week or my evening or my day or my month just by getting traumatized by telling this terrible stuff that I don't want to tell. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for being there for the victims. Adam, if you feel safe enough or are in a good enough place to share, can you share why she was worse? What made her next level?

It's going to be pretty explicit and pretty intense. So if people don't want to listen to this, they shouldn't listen to this. But if they want the truth, well, the reality about it, I mean, what Jody did to my life feels as a victim of child abuse coming forward, feels like being like being fucked backwards it feels like she tried to make me be the person abusing children force that into my head that image

force that into society force that everywhere and show that I had this terrible problem and use that as leverage over me I mean it's the only thing I can think of this worse than being a child and being abused would be being a parent forced to abuse your own child And Jody tried in every way to create that false narrative and reality around my life. So when she violated records of letting my personal records go, or my personal private record, sorry, it's hard to even talk.

My medical records, when she actually was doing, was going around creating her own medical records that she never did when I was her patient. and using the psych evaluation records from my psych evaluation for the scouting case where I sued scouting to show the damage of what happened to me. And there's this fear that you have where as a kid in Idaho, they have all sorts of ignorance there. And they teach you that if you're, you know, if you're abused, then you could become like that. I know that was a normal insecurity that a clinical psychologist would totally understand what the victim. And there was a, like, a part of it where I said that I was scared of what people would think. Because there were people that'd come up in Mormon, Idaho, and they'd be like, hey, can you be around these kids? Are you okay?

It just, it wrought my innocence. I was terrified of what that terrible catafile did to me. The last thing in the world, it's like if you escaped from a Holocaust camp and somebody was like, oh, we're scared you're going to go start your own Holocaust camp. you know it was the last thing in the world that these people in the little town you know talking they're so traumatizing and they'd be like well are you safe around kids because this happened to you and i mean that i talked about that in my psych evaluation and i was scared of what would happen when people would look at me like that if i was just in normal settings and and so you know jody took parts of that like oh this guy he can't be around kids he's he's a victim he doesn't know what safe boundaries are. See, he says he's scared of what would happen around kids. She didn't mention that I wasn't talking about what would happen between me and kids.

I was talking about what would happen between parents looking at me like I was different because I was a victim of abuse. And that's what Jody Hilda branched. She ran around with these records that had to protect the border on them because sensitive details with non-people, the non-professionals could take something, a little detail change, and they could draw a completely different conclusion. There was a reason these records were protected. I would never talk about this publicly because I don't want anyone to mix these details up.

But this, if we want to know the truth about how someone like Jody can take subtle little differences and create majorly different outcomes to destroy people's lives, knowing what they're doing, exactly what they're doing. You know, this is this is Jody Hilda Brand. So I did go to the world to come forward and talk about a sexual abuser. And I did go to stop these people as a kid in camp and all the cover-up later. I always avoided talking about what Jody Hildebrand did to me because the world, I didn't feel it would be ready for sensitive details because I had been abused so significantly from what this lady did to my life. and so yeah i just need to pause for a minute do you want to say something yeah absolutely pause thank you adam for for everything you're sharing we can imagine um john's been nodding as as he

listening's with with well it's it's it's it's partly disbelief i mean i'm a professional mental health person too and you know our our job is always to help people, right, to do no harm first and then to help people. And I just can't imagine taking a patient's information and using it against them, you know, so, I'm sorry you had to go through that. I, you know, it's so contrary to what we do. She did, as we understand it, she did, however, lose her license for a bit. Did she ever regain her license? So a lot more about that.

And she had an incredibly powerful team of attorneys from the same attorneys that represent the University of Utah to protect her from. It was a huge ordeal to get doppel to get to go out with this lady. Yeah, that's crazy. She did get cited for having a dual relationship with my ex-wife, and she did get cited for sharing my confidential medical records. I've read the press.

They talk a lot about the medical records. They don't talk about the dual relationship. I don't know if they've all seen that yet. No, we haven't found what? So what was the dual relationship? Was she meeting with your ex-wife? privately or having a relationship with her? What was, what was that?

Trying to slow down here, because I don't want to tell too much of my story. So, but the, the criminal aspect of a dual relationship's interesting, because on one hand, a dual relationship could be, oh, maybe a psychiatrist liked their patient. On another hand, it could be their psychiatrist, so it's like, I can earn money. if my patient goes out and gets customers for me.

Or on another hand, a psychiatrist could be like, I could earn a lot more money if I had super high profile patients that fit my doctrine, even if they're not that way, if I could turn them into that. And, you know, the thing about Jody is, you know, the dual relationship thing. Yeah. I mean, just have a hard time answering that because I got some real direct answers, but I just got down talking to those guys about getting ready for our interview. Sure.

I'm afraid if I tell it all here, then that will change. And really quickly, Adam, I'll just say those that are wondering, we're referring to an interview you're about to do with Mormon stories and host John DeLan. Is that correct? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I felt part of the reason I wanted to. really give him the run with this was because I felt that most of Jody's victims, because she victimizes the far extreme Mormon group, that they would be, you know, their lives

fall apart and broken. They'd probably be listening to John DeLen's thing, and that would be a place where a lot of them could be helped. For those that might be listening, please head over to Mormon stories for more of Adam's story. We will make sure to send everyone there. Thank you for sharing here with Hidden True Crime as well. Here's something I'm not going to talk about in Mormon stories, just because there is a term. It's called the friction of complexity. I kind of made that term up,

but it's a term that when a subject is too complex, it starts to create friction in people's minds, or it just slows down and they can comprehend it, or people have a visceral response to it. That's great. That's great. I'm on board with that term. Yeah, so there's a lot of friction of complexity in the story. Yeah.

And I have to be careful because if I even start to summarize it, I feel that the friction of complexity gets so big, then I start to feel like I need to apologize and I've done stuff wrong. You mix it in with the triggers and the shame and all that stuff. And well, it just sends me in like a... And so, I mean, I'm navigating through this with you guys because the truth matters. Yeah. And those people out there, their healing matters.

I know a lot of people who like race to help children, but these people, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 years old, whatever, these people are out there that are victims of this stuff. Their lives matter. Yes. And they matter a lot. They matter up there with how children's lives matter. They are super important.

And Jody prayed on these people like nobody. business. So I want the truth out there. I'm trying to think of a few. Well, what do you? Go ahead. No, go ahead, Adam. Oh, go ahead.

What's your question? Go ahead. John, well, John had a question too. Yeah, I had a, so you mentioned that she's, he's praying on kind of these fringe LDS groups or people. Would, would she fit within that profile or, I mean, would she be an extreme LDS believer too? Or where do you see her fitting in terms of her religious beliefs?

I kind of feel like when Ted Bundy joins the Mormon church. Okay. You know, where it was convenient, it helped for purpose. It was it worked to get her close to the people that she wanted to hurt. Okay. And what do you think happened with beyond your story, seeing her finally in the news connected to Ruby, Frankie and this child abuse? Do you feel then that Jody is the leader here as the one seen in opportunity? It's the history that I've seen of the kind of people Jody uses for her.

thing. That lady, even though she had 2.5 million followers on YouTube, she tells in comparison to the controlling factor of Jody. Like it's, to really understand Jody, you need to understand that, I don't know, once upon a time, the group of people that were Mormon and they had issues with pornography and masturbation, right? So they would feel really bad. They were not temple worthy. They weren't good enough. So they go to Jody to save the temple marriages and all that stuff.

And the modern times happened. The internet came out. Almost everybody looked at porn and masturbated sometimes. And in the real world outside of this little group of people didn't feel that the same cause and effect would happen for masturbation and porn. They looked at it like, oh, yeah, it's a normal part of life. and these people aren't doing all these crazy things, but there's this little tight bubble.

They felt like if you do these little things, this extreme thinking, way worse things could happen. They're indoctrinated or religiously taught this. You know, it's just this whole thing where it's like, like, you know, you're thinking of one scripture, you learn at church, and then another, and you time together, and soon you're on this slippery side

where looking at a woman and thinking about her wrong is the same thing as committing adultery, which is the next thing to murder and you're just like some bright beautiful child wondering about you know trying to make sense of this stuff these are vulnerable people in a changing world and and jodi came along and knew how to exploit that in a very very dangerous way and she yeah i don't think she has anything to the church outside of just a sociopathic relationship to get closer to her host. Wow. Wow. Would she talk to you about distortion then? Is this distortion thing been a continuous thing, truth versus distortion? So, can you describe what you

mean by distortion? Go ahead, John. Yeah, you know, and just in listening to a little bit of her show, I don't know, what was her video show? Was that like a YouTube channel? She was doing connection shows with Ruby and we've been watching them and assessing a bit of Jody. And she goes into truth versus distortion. We're all living in distortion and she is truth. Pretty much it gets down to truth. Yeah, I think, so one of the things I picked up is that her therapeutic perspective, I think, is really simple.

So you talk about the friction of complexity. This is like, I don't even know how to describe her worldview. Let's call it the simplicity of simplicity or something. But her perspective, it seems to me, revolves around three things. Choices, boundaries, and distortion. She talks about those things all the time. Can we pause for a second just because those are just triggers for me? Oh, okay.

I'm sorry. And the reason why, and all, Explain why is none of that geometry, that logical geometry of hers is real. It's all abstract language that she created because she knows how to navigate a manipulative area that I don't understand. Okay. But what we can round about this lady is that she showed her face, this ugly stuff that she's doing. Just multiple times she's popped up with different names. You know, she was at the Elks Lodge of Provo Canyon.

I think I'm pretty sure she was there running things when Lindsay Lohan was there getting abused. Or Lindsay, not Lohan, Paris Hilton. Yeah, Paris Hilton. A fact, I think she bragged about how she was so elite with this group. And she showed up in Lifestar. And, you know, she was just in a chapter, but then she went off on her whole big thing again, creating the same stuff.

And then she's another, she shows up in connections, but she's always teaching the exact same forms of manipulation and all these different places that I can tell. I don't know as well back then, but I heard her stories and stuff. But the thing that, you need, you need, I'm going to segue, and I can talk openly about this because I'm not playing on sharing this with Mormon stories. What we want to do is just the basis of control is interesting because, like, you know, when people are really scared, they give power to a leader in an unorthodox way.

Like 9-11, everybody was scared. All sides that usually fight. Give all the power to the president and unprecedented way. because it's this fear, this creates this qualitative fear that scares people so much. And if you're a real controlling leader, it makes the people subconsciously feel that that's validated when they have that fear,

that fear of fulfilling. You know, Jody's measures of control, it worked great for, like, pedophiles in prison, serial rapists, to talk about all those boundaries and all that stuff, to enforce it vigorously. to follow through all those narratives. It makes sense.

And I said, you know, control is interesting. It's like, it's morally okay. If I go and push somebody real hard without asking for their permission, if a car is going to hit them and you can't see the car and there's not enough time to do anything else. So controlling a situation is dependent on what level of threat's really there and what's going on. And when you get people that use those kinds of control when the threat level's not there, And when it's not going on, then that's a concerning thing. Like, why are they, why are they doing this?

And then if you, if you thought into those person's mind that there's not very many serial rapists, there's not very many, those aren't the fun people to hang out with. Jody wanted to rise in power and be like a goddess of the cult. You don't want to hang out with a bunch of people in prison for convicted crimes. You want to be really powerful and affluent. And her doctrine is the kind that's that's for these kinds of people, this hardened stuff. But if there's this huge group of people that don't qualify for that,

what can you do to their minds that makes them feel like they qualify for that kind of treatment? And that goes right into how she works. And I can, you know, I can explain, like, how she began and what? she did and what she said, how it progressed and how she did it. And she worked with these people. And eventually you can kind of understand what happened. If you could understand that her objective was, you know, I don't know how common a rapist is, a serial rapist or a pedophile or something like that, or some serious person that needs to have their freedom taken away to stop them from being a danger to society.

But they sure is hell not as common as somebody that's. it's masturbated. Right. Yeah, they're, right. They're not common at all. I mean, the point is, is that maybe these people that do these other things

are really, really rare compared to normal people. So how is it that Jody would get, indoctrinate these people into thinking this way? And the thing that I think happened right off the bat was that she needed people to believe

that it wasn't that the action that you performed that showed that you had an addiction. It was the problem in your head like this abstract. So what you actually did to act out on it didn't matter. So that was like one of her big steps is what you actually do doesn't matter. You know, whether it's, you know, whether it's jaywalking illegally and you're addicted to that or reading the scripture. too much or talking inappropriately or whether you look at, you know, like whether they kidnap people and rape people or whatever, she turned it back into the situation that it's the addiction in your head, not the actual behavior in real life. It's the problem. Wow. So suddenly

she opens this door to everybody that's been fighting some personal struggle and put them all in a room together united with this euphoric filling and it's a dangerous place to go yeah was she trying to do that was she trying to create a group these are absent so so uh a literal group we're athian yeah like a call no no i'm trying to yeah she's have these therapy groups that you go to okay like i i went to one for for i thought i was marriage counseling my bishop sent me there Right. And, you know, I would have walked out the door if I thought that I was in a therapy group with somebody that had been arrested for sexually explicit having sexual victims.

Yeah. I'm not in that category. I have a fierce history of fighting against people that mess with people sexually. Yeah. Right. So, right. So if I hear you correctly, Adam, I think part of what you're saying is, Like with, she creates things.

I'm sorry, go ahead. It's how she tricks people into the group. Yeah, that like with you, so you were a victim of, of sexual abuse, and she transformed that or wanted to transform that or get you to believe that somehow you were also an offender. And so I think what she's saying, what I hear you saying is that in the case of porn or masturbation, she seemingly is taking that idea and getting people to believe because of the, are doing that, that they're somehow rapist or could be rapist, right?

Is that, I mean, like, that type of thing? Her first step is to dislodge people's minds that the actual way that you act out is important. All that matters is the addiction in your head, this abstract idea. Right. And she starts enticing people with huge feelings of empowerment and then conflicting it with huge fears like psychosexual manipulative fears, back and forth, back and forth, back and and forth. It's like she masturbates you right out of your mind. Wow. I don't mean to say it like that,

but it's so gross and creepy and sexual and euphoric being in one of her classes, the kind of content. You sit there and you think, you know, it's one thing when the confession's talking about a traumatic thing, but sometime you wonder if it's like a new porn video. When they focus on it, obsessively bringing it up, you're sitting there thinking, are these people getting off on this? like I was creeped out and the thing was it didn't start that way it was not like that in the beginning it was like hey it's you know couples therapy come here this is great you're Mormon and addiction could be anything these are actual quotes from Jody you know addiction could be anything even if you just read your scriptures too much it's not how you act out it's just that you have an addiction

in your head you know and and and and and um and and uh And then really right in the beginning talking about like stake presidents and the mayor of Salt Lake and other famous people that, you know, general authorities that need help from her because, you know, you're, you're Mormon. You're going to do whatever the church leader's saying. Here's this lady that's just saying, like, qualifying this extreme, what she's going to do in the, you know, just herself. And you don't know what it's extreme yet. Qualifying herself. and you know by by grabbing these people that you put your trust in and stuff and that they're all doing it so you know it's just you do it too and you know it's just your fear and it's also this feeling it's like oh real famous and powerful important people and she's spending all this time on me you know and then she's this feeling like oh it doesn't matter how you whatever your addiction is whether you read the scriptures too much you have problem with food you know none of this stuff matters whether it's a sexual issue It doesn't matter.

It's all the addiction thing in your head. And she just really, really makes that feel like everybody's off the hook with what their actual actions are. It's this issue in our head. We're going to get to the bottom of this. You guys are going to trust me. Powerful people do. You're super important. This is exclusive.

That's the kind of stuff. And fortunately, for some people, one of their partners really takes it. The other one starts to worry. you know and that kind of happens but so so then uh once she's removed from people the sensitivity the uh proportionality of their offenses and turned it into this abstract idea of addiction and she starts teaching these violations of boundaries and starts to get really strict and shows each other how to punish each other for by confronting a certain way and disrupting everything starts to justify people and she's just swinging back and forth in the background these

super empowerment lifestyle she has and all this celebrity desa and this power and then these super psychosexual fears of what will happen if these addictions just keep going out of control right okay so but she doesn't really like in the beginning it's just this charismatic funny girl laughing not using real intense topics not talking about too intense stuff you're there with your spouse six weeks eight weeks goes by and now she's going to divide you into two different groups the guys in one group and the women in the other group and this is where the psych psychopath deception starts to begin i mean i mean it was already this is where she's going to act like she's teaching one group one thing and the other another and she's going to do stuff that's just

completely different. So was that her standard procedure? She would get people into marital counseling and then split the men from the women in different groups? Yeah, after like six or eight weeks and then she'd be wanting to do individual counseling

alongside group counseling and then she would split them up in groups. And you'd be in a group of guys. And, you know, I never forget it. It was marriage counseling. which I was okay with, charismatic, cool lady, talking about everything that my wife seems to be less depressed about

and happy and energetic to try to make change in her life. You know, it's like starting to control people for their behavior, but like on a minor level, not like, not like crazy stuff, but like just minor stuff. And, you know, the thing is about it is just like, once he you know the first huge

alarm that went off to me is that I'm a victim of abuse real sensitive to people that have been sexual predators in a group of people who none of our actions actually matter it's just the addiction in our head that matters so we're all in there for the same reason

and then they started asking people to talk about the things that they'd done when they acted out and there's like four people in my group. One kid is a survivor of that polygamous cult down in Utah.

He's got terrible trauma from what those people did to him. Nice, super nice kid. Another kid in the group is a sexual perpetrator. He's got victims. He does exhibitionism in public. Wow. Another person in the group. Was he?

convicted that that person? I don't know. All I know is it freaks the hell out of you when you're like, oh, I stole a Sammy's apple out of the picnic basket. And someone else was like, oh, I brought photography in the same basket. Right. You know, you're just like, you're like, wait, this is marital counseling. Jody said, Jody said it was all the same. It doesn't matter what we do. It's just the addiction in our head. You know, there was an, there was an, And then another guy in there, he was a sexual perpetrator also. He was the opposite. There's one that like voyeur, he was a voyeurist.

He was talking about all his voyering problems that he was working on. Wow. And I'm sitting there like, I don't want to be in this basket. Right. Yeah. I came for marriage counseling, as you said. Well, yeah. That's what's the first red thing.

flag. I was like, I know I wanted, you know, we all want to be like Jody and we all want to speak the truth and we're all in the stuff. But like, there's a difference between a sexual predator. You know, that, that was the problem. She had literally removed from all these people that she indoctrinated them with this religious idea of how it was an addiction and the context. of how it was how you acted out didn't matter and she went through all these abstract languages about boundaries and create all these emotional situations between spouses and they calloused over time and she just control got tighter and tighter and she was somehow just giving these people this euphoric feeling for controlling the other person that was just like a drug and i you know

then it was kind of this creep the thing is like Yeah, it was just, it was just so, you know, I had to go home. This was my level of innocence. I had to go home and look up in a dictionary or it was online what voyeurism was and what exhibitionism was because I didn't know. Yeah. That's the day I learned. So when I thought, go ahead. I think you, I think you went through the wrong door.

when you were trying to find that group. Well, you know, when your bishop's brother owns Lifestar and this multi-million dollar organization making money off of members of the church who struggle with pornography. Was she involved with Lifestar? She was their coach. When I came across Jody,

she was on the top list of referrals for the LDS social services and she was a Lifestar coach and she was going to church meetings. She was talking to priesthood leaders, and she was soliciting from talks on Sundays her patients. And so you take somebody like Jody, and she is an expert in manipulating people's subconscious to make them go in a different direction

than what would be good for them because she uses visceral violent or visceral sexual manipulation. You know, she takes like, you know, these budding people, they're young married couples and they just want to love each other and they want these goals. This isn't what perpetrators are thinking. That's not why the perpetrators are in the class that the judge ordered them to be in. They're like volunteers in normal lives coming out of their religion,

trying to make their marriages better and stuff. And, you know, I remember when I, let's see, right? What was it? I think it was the last day that we had the couples group. that they brought some guy in and he was like he seemed like a real trustworthy, honest, sincere, humbled guy that fought addiction and was a very successful in other areas in his life. And he was like, yeah, I was like trying not to masturbate and look at porn sometimes. And I had this addiction and I didn't take it serious and I didn't confront it. And soon it was, I woke up behind dumpster.

with girls I didn't know, didn't have teas, and I didn't know if I had AIDS and my life was over. And it just kind of like, they made you like think that if you had these little things, you would become like this terrible thing. And they just go back and forth that if you were in denial to this, then you would become this way. No, no, no, no, no. You will become this way if you're acting like this, if you deny your addiction. And so, so to take that, um, you know, to take the qualitative, I don't know how to say it.

It's kind of like, like, you don't really, like there's first degree, first stage cancer, there's second stage, there's third stage, there's four stage. When someone gets first stage, they freak out and they think they have second stage, third stage, fourth stage, it's terrible. Jody creates an environment where she removes from people, the action. actions and accountability. She makes it not matter and it's all about some abstract idea

in their head. Then she makes people all feel like they're fighting the same addiction on all people of all different levels together mixing that together. And then she makes people feel after she removes from them there then she makes people feel

that like that if you've got stage one, you've got stage four. In other words, you got these people thinking that because they didn't, I mean, I remember I didn't masturbate, I didn't do porn, I was doing great through this program, I was going through it all, and nothing worked. They just got more and more upset at me and more they said my life was out of control. And I just remember just falling apart thinking that I don't know what. what to do. I just don't know what to do. And I was literally Googling chemical castration thinking that would help me the next step, like anything that I could do to stop, to get my life back

so I could live a normal life and not be punished all the time for everything. And they, you know, they tuned in on, I was a victim of sexual child abuse and I brought it up. And at some point, because I did have PTSD and trauma about what happened to me as a kid. And they were like, that's your addiction speaking. Wow. That's your addiction. And if you talk about that, that's your addiction. And so they turned like, I mean, I get that it's not good to act like a victim when

when something bad happens. But in the English language, victim means, you know, like if somebody had their kid kidnapped and killed, I'd say that person's a victim of somebody having, losing a child. I wouldn't say that they're a person in denial who's going to use the abstract idea to violate everyone's boundaries in the room. Exactly. Right. Do you know what I mean? Absolutely. So I just, you know, I didn't know where to go there.

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Plus, if you subscribe, you'll get an additional 20% off. Discover your true age today. What do you think her motive is? Like, what is her actual motive in the end? So I think that Jody's main, I think she's got the motive of a very, not say this right. I know there's a lot of evidence in my mind from the things that I've looked at that suggests that she has this dual operation where one, she gets these high profile people. She destroys them and feeds them into this machine where she wants huge amounts of less intelligent, normal people to follow.

Okay. So, so she's, you know, she's like, she needs. that kind of blood and then she needs all the she needs people without hearts and brains to follow it okay and if they have a heart in the brain she needs to destroy that so that then they will follow it power and fame well yeah if you uh you go back and forth yeah so so power let's say that's a power and fame and when i first heard that literally it was just last week that jody's latest victim was this eight channels lady i knew in two seconds i knew in two seconds that jody absolutely wanted that lady's platform to become more powerful and then she would lie to that lady she would make that lady as mentally sick as a dog

then she would lie to her like she was helping her and then she would still that lady's power. And I knew in two seconds that that lady was her patient, not her partner. Yeah. Not her business friend. And they could have called it different because she got in trouble with the relationship in the past. But I knew that was her patient. And I could tell right away that that lady struggled with some control issues and maybe some narcissism.

And it just lined up that that that was a perfect patient that Jody would know how to completely. Like she was bad. She had never done this stuff without Jody missing up her mind. by making it so that her actions didn't matter. Like making her believe in a religion of thought that made the actions in the real world not matter. Yeah. Like I knew in two seconds, because this isn't the first time. Like, she has needed this stuff to survive and make her plan.

So, like, my ex-wife was the daughter of a general authority. That's huge credit in Mormon church in the 1990s in the 2000s. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. I just, and she wants money, big time. And I, Jody does. And I just want a scouting settlement. So we had the daughter of a general authority or area 70, they call it, no one knows the difference.

And then a, when you're using it for power. And a guy that just had a huge check from a settlement payment. And, and, you know, when you sit there and watch. how much Jody wanted to say the general authorities, I take care of their families. You know, to people that are totally engineered on taking, not solving their own problems with sex or pornography or figuring out their own views on it. But just to do whatever a church leader says, she wanted that really, really bad. And so the dual relationship comes like where not only did she like. So I'm in this program with her.

And with Jody and I'm in this group, I'm not comfortable. And I start telling my wife I'm not comfortable. And my wife starts telling me that it's my addiction. Jody's telling her what to say. That it's my addiction acting out this saying I'm not comfortable. And I'm in this group with these guys that have sexual predator problems. and I don't feel safe at all. I mean,

I mean, and there was a little therapy, you know, in the fact that if you were like watching, you know, you know, I don't know, like if,

if you watch somebody next to you do something horrific, then you didn't want anything to do with that. You know, it's just not worth it. It was so uncomfortable. And so I'm watching, I didn't say that last and right. What I mean is that,

Like, you know, like, if you want to teach your kids not to cross the street without your permission, if they got to see someone hit by a car in the street every day, that would definitely do the job. Yeah. Wow. So, so in other words, she sees, she sees a general authority's family with a settlement check in you. And, you know, she was living in a $3 million home. Those children escaped a $3 million home that was allegedly Jody. Do you think then that?

Oh, oh, she's filthy rich. The dual relationship. So imagine you graduate from some school. You got your four-year degree. Jody only got like a, I think it was online two-year degree or I don't know. It might have been a four-year degree. But, you know, so imagine somebody gets this degree. They're a psychologist.

They're going to work with the patient. The patient pays. I have no idea. Maybe their insurance pays it. Maybe it's like $80 an hour. Maybe you can earn $120,000 a year working full time as a counselor in an office. Maybe that's what you can do. And that does cool.

But, you know, that's like normal. Someone's joining the field not to earn huge amounts of money. The journey is a psychologist because they want to help people that have problems and figure out this stuff. Yeah, you're talking about me there. Yeah, yeah, you're next to a school teacher. Right, exactly. The intelligence that you could have used somewhere else. I'm not doing it because I see big dollar signs.

That's not why I'm getting in the field. No, oh, back to Jody. Another core part of her doctrine was the relationship needs to die before the new one can be reborn. She's speaking this to Mormons, people who've taught their whole life about resurrection and stuff. and she's using their own religion to encourage them in this way of thinking that there's this justification for killing a relationship that's alive so that a healthy one can be reborn. Huh. That's a huge part of her doctrine that she brings in over and over.

The relationship needs to die before it can be reborn. She's got guys masturbating, guys looking at pornography, women too, whatever. And she's teaching them that as they progress in this program, they're really. relationship needs to die until they hit a hitting point and then they will be reborn. So she starts to institutionalize this separation from your spouse. Now you can't talk about intimate stuff. Now you can't have intimacy. Now you can't kiss as a punishment as you keep progressing into this program.

Now you can't sleep together. Now you can't do this. Now you can't do that. It's all this like religious idea that once it dies, it'll all flip around and get better. So people are rationalizing. killing the relationship, murdering the relationship for a new one to be reborn. Wow.

That's just, that actually blows my mind. John? Yeah, I mean, right. I saw that in what you wrote. But what, so is that where some of the money comes in that once she splits that relationship?

She's, you got to get the money, you got to have, a whole big group of people that believe that these higher levels of control are justified so that then they give you

way more power than you deserve. A $3 million home or? Well, so take for example, this. I mean, Jody was like the, like, she was like a, she was trying to always create like some multi-marketing group of people that could do what she does and that the money would all flow up to her.

Yep. Yep. And she would create the, you know, just like multi-marketing, the person that's buying the $80 shampoo is going to be a millionaire someday. You know, she was working that angle of taking the money from these people, destroying their lives and then turning them into people that would do the same thing she was doing to more and more people and she would be earning money off of it. So wait, so she was, she was, she was turning out clones and then they would, they would do this

coaching. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what she was doing. And I mean, she was basically forming like, almost like a church hierarchy. And then the clones need to talk to the person in authority when they can't handle it. But did she, did she formalize that? Or like, so she would train a clone and then the clone would go out and coach. I assume it was coaching because, you know, to be a psychologist takes a lot of education. So she'd have coaches and then they would pay her a percentage? Women who were yesterday's client and counseling therapy were tomorrow's Jody Jr. Wow.

Wow. You know, there's a video that we watched at the St. George Women's Business Conference and she seems to have these coaches all around her. They're all wearing connection t-shirts. Everyone's wearing a connection t-shirt except for Jody. And she's interviewing each of them. And, you know, Ruby is also one of them. Oh, absolutely.

Bless her heart, sweet little Ruby. Absolutely. Absolutely. This is, I mean, Jody was turning her into a Jody Jr. Jody was stealing from her, her entire $2.5 million platform to turn it into a connections platform. And Jody was acting like she needed to do it because of the problem. and the addictions and things. Yeah, there's one video where she calls Ruby entitled.

Ruby's saying all these shameful things about herself, and she adds to it. Also entitled. She goes, yeah, entitled. Let's not forget that one. You see why it was like Ruby was like a 747, a scheduled aircraft? Like it was just like, oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I saw that lady, and I could tell you, without knowing all of Joe, his mind tricks to how she does it completely.

I could tell you what the end results should be in after three years. Yeah. Like, oh, yeah. She had, what's her power? Influencer over people. That'll be long to Jody. What's her, what's her situation? Money, I'm sure it's paid to Jody.

See, the thing is like, yes, this doctor and it's just fascinating how quickly she removes from people the, the cause and effect of how they really act in life, turns it into some abstract, teaches boundaries, which creates so many fights and feelings, everybody's blind, grabs a bunch of people, scares the hell out of everybody psychosexual. It empowers people in a way that's totally wrong over other people. And she's got her whole gig going, but how does she get the money? So she creates these people that are supposed to be little Jodys that have all these work groups. She was always trying to do that.

She was always trying to expand that. But the thing is like, they're not sociopathic cult leaders. They're insecure control people that need her all the time. So she can't get that big. You know, she can't, you know, it takes a certain kind of person to do what Jody does. And, you know, the, so here's an example of how this works. So my ex-wife's in this group, she's doing all the stuff, and they're teaching in there that, you know, there's no difference between jaywalking and capital punishment, capital murder or whatever. There's really not a difference.

It's addiction and boundaries. Well, everybody knows that. Come on. You get people messed up long enough and denoculate them from their senses and blind them with giving them this huge power. and fear back and forth long enough and you'd be surprised how many people start to fall out of the boat like i know there's like some of us that would never over a million years of that give up that objectivity but there's some of us who would yeah and those are the people that jody praise on and and so like uh what what's an example i i was in this group um i lost my training

not, damn it. It's great sometimes when you have trauma because your mind just gives it to you. That's, it's not good later after you're like, whatever. But, Jody was like,

with her, with her, so she's creating these minion people to go out and become little Jodys and run these groups for her teaching her doctrine about how addiction is, oh, yeah, here's an example. So I've never thought it.

My ex-wife was a 4.0 student. I think she had a possibility to go to Harvard for a short-term like thing. I don't know if it was a full ride. She had an elite scholarship to Haifa University. She had learned supposedly like 10 languages. So she had an ability to say things very quickly that she heard other people say to understand their antics very, very quickly. And, you know, and she was the daughter of a general authority.

And she came from this family. And the day before she left and we got in an argument, she called the police on me. And they came. We had a fight and she called the police. And the police came in. It was, you know, we got a little baby. We're sitting there.

There's been an argument. argument. The police have been called. They come in and they say, what's going on? And she says, he, he abused me. They say, well, how did he abuse you? And she said, he violated my boundaries. They said, well, how did he violate your boundaries? And she said, all honesty, thinking they would think this was, she was, he left his backpack on the couch when he was supposed to be in the closet. And that violates me. my boundaries and that does not work for the relationship. And she thought that they would arrest me and take me away. Wow. Wait, is there, Adam, is there a police report out there with? Yeah, that's in a police report. Is there a police report out there with that?

Wow. That, those words are in there. Wow. And what, I mean, the police, what did the police do? They just, they must have just, like, wide-eyed and shocked and tried to explain to her how that's not abuse. And the point is The point is that that was Jody's handiwork

Oh yeah How could a person who before they met Jody Who was accurate on tons of stuff Had some problems I won't go into explaining those Not needed But how How could they go from

Functional to do grade in school and university Functional to do all this stuff And to think that someone violating a boundary because it's an addiction in a head, it's not the consequence, they're targeting the addiction in the head and controlling how it moves and breeze, not the actual things people do in real life. And they're doing it like they're the surgeons and nobody else is that they're working for Jody. How could a person actually think?

Suppose for a moment that you did believe that your spouse should be arrested for abuse because they left the backpack on the couch or the toilet seat up, you know, but really did believe it, 100% believed it. Like, like, so you get this lady that now believes, I guess, down southern Utah that, you know, duct taping the kids, you know, is what's needed to make sure that they don't violate these, these boundaries, these boundaries that are. created on what ground now that we've left the objective world where how you act out doesn't actually matter. Well, yeah. Ductaping them, starving them, abandoning them. But somehow it

appears somehow seeing those kids as a harm to others in some way, right? That was something you mentioned. Yeah. Oh, that right there, I don't think Jody would have said that about those kids while as they were with her. I think that was a sociopathic line. She shoved on the end of it, just as the police were there. Really? Because she said, don't let those kids. Like, she made the kids a threat. Don't let those kids be around other kids. Let me tell you how she coached my wife in the protective order, all the allegations that she would say about how I was trying to break the protective order. So if a guy broke a protective order, he'd actually talk to somebody he's not supposed to talk to or he would commit an action where he you know he violated their space or something

but if you wanted to write a testimony that the police would listen to that didn't have any of those ramifications but but would get the same results you teach her how to say stuff like I was with my baby and I was super scared when I saw him how he was acting out of control and it was super super, to me and I did know what to do and I need some help. This guy's so scary and dangerous to me. That right there makes you think, oh, this guy's hurting are really, really bad. Even me, I'm like, where is this terrible person? I'm going to protect this lady. Wait, they're talking about me. Right. In other words, she taught, she teaches these women how to say stuff in a way where there's no testimony of something that would hold up in a court of laws as actually a real thing.

Huh. To credit of here. So when I heard that Jody, like, I'm reading the news. I'm reading the news about this. I'm shocked as 4 a.m. I woke up and I saw Jody Hilda Brandt's name on this thing. And I am shocked. Not from like, in this lifetime, justice is here.

You know, totally didn't shock me at all that she was here in doing this with this lady. Totally just another one of her people. But I'm reading the news and then I read in. KSL's article right at the end where the last paragraph where she said she he quotes what and they might want to redact that because that just serves Jody where where she says yeah but never let those kids around anyone again so so when Jody gets caught uh for controlling people in a really bad way she distracts people from her crime with a psychosexual form of manipulation Right, but it's not going to be effective because they'd have to...

Because they're minors. They're going to have to prove, well, they're minors, but they'd have to prove that those kids had some juvenile record or right. Like, it's all going to be fluff. So let's look at this way. Imagine that they weren't kids, which society is there to protect. Imagine they were 40 and 50-year-old people. Yeah. Right.

And she said that about that. about that i mean it's like it's like it's like it's like yeah they would wonder who the victim was they would wonder yeah she'd be like yeah we locked them in the room for her week this poor woman that got raped by that guy you know jody would say that make it up just so that everybody would stop the justice from happening okay yeah in other words like in fact what's interesting if there's a if you look at online there's something called jody hildegraint.com somebody's put together stuff against lodi there so it's really interesting i guess i'm the only one that succeeded in punishing jody up till now yeah with the doppel the that's credit to my father he completely made that happen

yeah uh incredible father incredible guy huge amounts of stuff that another day another time we'll Good and too, but, but when, um, when Jody actually showed up to her hearing, which I didn't know about was happening because I, you know, my life's totally messed up and I'm off trying to take care of the situation with my kids. Right. I wish I had been invited to go to it. Here's an example. Her earlier hearing, she introduces into the writing, oh, there's a stalker out there that

wants to hurt me. What does a stalker have to do? with the violations of using somebody's wife in a dual relationship, which we need to return to, so I can explain more about that. And the violations of using someone's medical records to hurt them, it had nothing to do with it. It was just Jody's form of manipulation. If everybody felt she was in fear and scared,

and this sweet lady that was in there, they would try to find some understanding for why she acted in a way that she shouldn't. Yeah. Yeah. So she led with that? Well, she just, in her, just starts talking about it in the middle of the court for no reason. But there's a stalker out there. Right.

So she also potentially kind of occupies this victim territory herself. Oh, so then you go to the next hearing and it worked. She's like, yeah, there's a stalker. He's come to my house like 19 times. She acts like she's so scared that everybody sees this sweet lady that's scared from victimization. The same stuff she teaches women to do to destroy their husbands. She's the ganda. I mean, she is the master of this psychopathan lion.

She's in there using it, which, like, if you know Jody, this is what she does to distract people from her crimes. She acts like the woman that you're trying to rescue from a crime. Wow. Yeah. And so, so with the, guys, they, they,

they totally fall for it. They dismiss all this stuff and think she's in trauma. So the board, so the board, so the evidence here is completely clear cut. She violated your confidentiality. She was in a dual relationship.

Like, that's indisputable. But they said, they really said that because of her, her, this ploy she used, that none of that mattered. I wasn't there. I just read online.

You can look at the report. I wasn't there. My impression reading the report was that she got the very minimum of what she could have got. I know she was guilty of way worse. And she had great attorneys and acting like she was a super frightened victim from a very dangerous person was how that very dangerous person walked out of that courtroom with way less. And that's that's that's Jody. That's how she acts. She teaches people to that saying, you know that, no one got their mind around Ted Bundy because he would have a cast on his arm and he had this nice smile.

And no one could understand how the feelings they felt when they see this guy equated to what he was actually doing. Right. Right. And, you know, with Jody Hildebrand, when she talks about like in that courtroom, think about this, you're professional. Okay, so I do victims advocacy. I know that if I meet a victim of abuse and it's real abuse, I tell them to go talk to the police. I tell them to go to the hospital. Right.

All right. It's all the red flags when Jody coaches these women through the civil process that removes children but never takes them through the criminal process that perpetrates perpetrators. Right. And she does it in a way that completely ruins people's custody in their lives and their family and just puts them through health. And so, you know, here's this, I remember my point that, sorry, it's so interesting navigating these stories because it's just traumatic for me. And then it's like my mind disappears and then I'm right back. Yeah. Are you doing it?

Are you okay? Yeah, how are you doing? I'm okay. This is worth it. We've got to get this truth down there. There's people that need to hear this. Thank you. But she's, I'm trying to just remember my point.

Sometimes my mind just goes blank when I'm, like I said, there's just tons of complexity with this person. Oh, but she just, you know, you watch, if you'd seen the papers that I had and saw how the complaints were made by the people that she was coaching on how to make those complaints. and the correspondence those people had with her on asking her how to make the complaints so people believe them. Wow. A lot of pity play, too. Like, pity play, the deflection, the victimization. Yeah, people, I think a lot of people that are wanting to take advantage of others practice

pity play too, just so you know that this making themselves the victim. So what you're saying, I just want to validate you too. Yeah, it's a manipulation. It's just one of those things. that as we get more intelligent as human beings, we start to realize that our brains are extremely complex. And there's parts of our brains that work in a way that's like visceral. And they start saying they're not a terrorist. I get this visceral feeling that they are a terrorist. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what I'm talking about? I know exactly what you're talking about. It's like they're busy saying

they're not one and all I can feel is that they are one. Right. a bit of projection too a projection there right yeah well one thing i've learned and i learned this on my own i figured this out man i had to figure stuff out to understand these people what they'd done uh when people repeat the same thing over and over the subconscious starts to believe the opposite so if your mom's like there is a good girl out there for you to marry i know there is that's cool thanks mom she says it again and then again and then again again there's one thing i inside there is not a girl in this world i'm like thanks mom now i know there's not one you know that's the that's the you know this this powerful funny way that our brains work and you got some nice innocent

person that gets severely traumatized by jody hildergrant's abuse and in broken charge they're repeating over and over i did not abuse my children i did not abuse my children i did not abuse my children. There's only one thing people think about that person. Do not let him around children. Right. You know what kind of power it is, not just to get famous people in your group, not just to get the money from a lot, you have the ability to execute people's everything they care about in their life. Yeah. Which is what she does. By breaking them and feeding them into this funnel where you're coaching them in a way that they lose their children system. I went to jail. For 14 days, I had four criminal charges against them, four felonies, 20 years maximum.

Wow. For four felonies. And, you know, it's interesting. And this is kind of the bigger picture about the Mormon church, is they did a protective order. And it said that I couldn't talk to my ex-wife unless an ecclesiastical leader was there or an attorney. But why would they include an ecclesiastical leader in a legal thing like that? Yeah, why would they? That is very...

I don't know. I'm wondering now if it was on purpose for some terrible thing. Because the bishop called me in, told me she still loved me, told me to give her a stroller, her journal back. Let's see, a card had no writing on it. I didn't want to just get well or something. The bishop called you in to tell you this for your ex-wife. Yeah, my Mormon bishop did.

Yes. Called me in. Called me on the phone. called her on the phone, told her as the ecclesiastical leader, and he's looking at the protective already, and said, is this okay with you? And she said, it's okay, and that she wanted this. At the police station, I gave her those things that they asked for it.

And four, like four days later, I got like half an inch of papers that said I had four felony charges against me. And those were black and white photographs of those items was the evidence for the felony charges. What? Wait, what were the, what were the, what were the charges? charges? Four felony charges. Felony, like Class C felony

charges for protective order violations. Oh, okay. I looked up with the Utah law and it said that protective order violations were misdemeanors unless you had a previous criminal history as a felon.

And I didn't have any criminal history. And they had felon charges. So when I went to BYU and was late for criminal hearing because it was like my second one I went to because I had finals at BYU. I was 30 minutes late. They arrested me, put me in chains, said that the, said that the judge was gone for two weeks,

and they put me in jail without Bell for the felony charges for two weeks. Wow. And during that time, Jody Hildebrand, which my ex, went to the Honor Code office and started talking about into all their disciples that they were following, they were bringing in, how because I didn't handle my addiction and didn't do their program. My whole life was destroyed and I was going to prison for abuse. And when I was in chains and an orange jumpsuit, I looked across the room, I saw all the new recruits of the new wives sitting there with my ex-wife and Jody

watching and smiles and smirks on their face. Jody Juniors. Jody Juniors. Yeah. Yeah. I don't realize that. I was the one that was free. Yeah.

Wow. You have been so much. I just, congratulations on keeping her on being able to make her accountable somewhat, not as much as she should have been, but you did do that and you should be proud, you know. So as much as I don't like what my ex-wife did for me and don't care for her as a person outside of my godly diligence.

to care about all of God's children. I have to defend the beliefs that if you're mentally unstable and you go to a therapist and they make you a lot worse, you can't just say that this person that does all these bad things for that therapist is fully accountable for what they've done. If they're mentally unhealthy and they're seeking mental health and a therapist, And a therapist messes up their understanding, their internal understanding of the world.

That's a very gray area of, you know, and the redemption of healing our society. I don't want vengeance. I want the world to heal. And the truth is, everyone looks at the men and it lost their kids, lost all these rides. I mean, when I was in jail, this guy told me, it's a terrible therapist story.

And it was Jody Hildebrand. He was in a storage unit with a protective order. Now he's in jail and he's losing his kids for abuse charges. I met a guy when I was painting curb addresses because I couldn't have a normal job with all this going on. I was painting house addresses and he was in his house and he told me the same story. And it was all like he was fighting criminal charges in a custody case losing his kids as well. I mean, it was just insane. The systematic methodology to which this lady massively drove these.

people through and where was all her money coming from? Yeah, that's a good question. That's a very good question. Yeah, the money thing is a really good question. You know, it seems as if she's continually gotten worse, it seems as if her history, and help me understand this, is that she, yes, she, she gets the couple, she hurts the man, she separates them, she ruins the man's life. In this situation, it seems like she's gone a little bit further or gone now there are children involved. Did she have access to your children ever? Or is this new? Is this deeper?

What's going on with having access to somebody's children? This is where the friction of complexity comes in. You know how I was explaining to you that if a guy says I didn't abuse a kid like 10 times everybody thinks he abused the kid? Yes. There's a certain kind of language that if you say, well, my ex was this and a divorce or ex-wasis, no one really believes what you're talking about anymore. And so, you know, like, so far we've been pretty concrete to talk about Jody and these

experiences and what I've witnessed of it. And this is where the friction of complexity comes in, you know, if, in all honesty, if we talked about, if we talked about the way that this lady affected my customer, case, the extremely damaging, intricate ways with huge amounts of evidence and paperwork, but they all got away with it, and later we examined it and found out what happened. You know, it, I mean, it's incredible. So, yeah, and if, you know, she does the same thing multiple times with multiple people until the super complex methodology becomes like a veneered pattern,

And, you know, to say then did she do this to these people's kids? Well, if she did certain things that led to the exact same results in 50 other women and leading into it, she knew exactly what she was doing and the people didn't have the intelligence and understanding of how she worked. Well, you know, I feel like there's grounds where you could say that it looks like this woman did this to these kids. it looks like she could take your kids away yeah yeah i think so i had a a friend that just said you have no idea how powerful these people are i'll lose my kids i'll lose everything in my life and and i said oh i do know you know like uh it's again one of those visceral things you're sitting in a courtroom where they're trying to decide between two people arguing because they're both out of their mind and

a divorce and you're outside of the logic of what people are saying you can be honestly the one that argues the most you don't even want to listen to i mean nobody likes divorce to talk for a long time you're sitting there listening to these people but then when somebody uses the visceral response is they use psychosexual manipulation or psychoviolent manipulation where they make an allegation that's extreme sexual against somebody and someone defends it and it's throw out of court because it was never an actual statement, never an actual real thing. That's going to change that custody case. It's going to change it in a couple ways.

It's going to freak everyone out. But then it's going to damage one of the people so much that then the way people look at them is that they're unfit to be apparent. So I don't want to go into that area because we could on a whole other podcast. And I have, we fought this lady. and we have tons of documentation, legal documentation of what this person was. Yeah. Yeah.

That's good. That is good. You need that for a situation like this. Yeah. So, you've had a lot of, go ahead. How are you, I mean, you've kind of shared like, how are you doing today, though, with the, like, with the news in this past two weeks, this story coming out, how are doing? I personally have had a really unusual life. You said you saw the stuff. I don't know if you

seen I got a Freedom Gala Award for helping stop a dictator from killing 850 men in Syria. And I've been involved in really big traumatic things before where I felt like a lot of people died from stuff I was trying to help them with, but couldn't win. And, you know, it's just for me, there are worse things than this issue because I've seen some other parts of the world. And I've seen, you know, like I lost, I lost the one time I was going to go out on the ocean with the boat that I had stolen from smugglers to rescue people in a boat that was drowning. And I didn't go. And I thought I needed to go this other medical place to help people instead. And 17 kids died that day, and I felt responsible for it.

And then my trauma from that was extremely bad. And for a couple of years, it was very traumatic. And so, like, at one time I was able to accidentally grab a baby out of the ocean. I remember feeling totally worthless about that. That happened two days before. And then I ran out to a boat that was sinking, and the waves were huge. I couldn't even see it. I was in the wrong spot and my hand closed on why I thought was a fish.

And it turned out to be this baby that was still alive. Wow. Yes, little baby. I don't know if the boy or girl, it was too much trauma and I just handed it to someone when I was running looking for everyone else. But I remember feeling that like, yeah, yeah, these people, they stole my value from me. So I'm totally worthless. And I believe that now because they've done such a good job. That baby's not worthless.

and if I hadn't have saved it, it would be dead. And I knew that baby had value. So I felt like, hey, I must have some value no matter what, because at least I have the value of this baby's life now. You know, and so like I've, I've had my own journey to look at a greater, deeper picture, to find truths outside of a lot of the real traumatizing stuff in this life. And I believe in this great beautiful picture out there that we've just got to keep fighting for. it and find it and people like jody hill o'grant will pass they don't have real power they don't have love and love is real power they don't have real power and and my family i got now is the best thing ever and i love my kids kids love me and we're close uh and and mostly i mean we have some issues

right now everybody does with teenagers sometimes but um but i believe in a good future and And so to answer the question about now, I got married a year ago, this beautiful, wonderful person. I was single for 13 years. I started dating somebody that I lived with for eight, nine months, and she was killed in a car accident of three years. And, yeah, it really sucked. And Alex and, and, uh, and, uh, And it was really hard on the kids and me. And so to finally find someone after all those years.

And then that happened. And then last year, a year and a half ago, someone opened the apartment door thinking it was an Airbnb. It was this beautiful doctor that was half Syrian and half Egyptian. And she thought my apartment was her Airbnb. And that's how I met my wife. And I totally didn't think of dating her. I didn't think she'd be interested in me because, you know, I've always wanted to say this.

I always forget to say this because I know victims of these abuses are listening to me. And they care about how to be datable again. They care about how to be happy again. And we don't believe that we can be sometimes with the stuff. But, you know, I didn't expect that. And she came right to my, she found me. And we fell in love and we got married and we have this beautiful baby that's three months old. Wow.

And I'm mending some of the problems with my children. My daughter lives with me now and my son. I'm working on some things that amount of damage this lady's done that should have been stopped years ago. I mean, it's just so, oh, that's back to my point. My point was earlier that there was a point that I lost and now I remember it. So, yeah, of course it's wrong if these guys are criminalized. And if you want to study criminal stuff, the psych, the person over our custody case said that, like, of the people that had special masters, that means, you know, a lot of allegations, the court puts a special master in the case that in California, the special master 80% of the time would find child abuse. But in Utah, they only found it 15% of the time.

So there was a huge amount of special masters for people that didn't really have any crimes. and the problem with the judges in the system to act like small things were way bigger and then special masters are there they didn't find any real big things so there's there's a problem that people were mentally sick in a way of vulnerable people if this is happening in a big way and and so but so yeah there are guys a lot mostly guys out there that have been treated this way through jodi's empire or coles thing. But the women that become her minions

thinking that they're justifying a means to an end to a very dangerous thing to do. You know, the women that have justified this and destroyed so much in the name of Jody's doctrines of boundaries and killing your relationships so it'll be reborn and thinking it's going to bring you to this bliss that's so

empowering than no one has. The women that do this well after jody dumps them after she's got what she wanted and it destroyed everything and eventually it messed up their life well they hold on to this stuff and it doesn't allow them to reintegrate into relationships anymore it doesn't allow them to reintegrate into society in a healthy way it doesn't allow them you know when you use like these instruments of society's trust to damage somebody extensively think under Jody's ruling, you know, when you're done, you oddly no longer believe in these institutions anymore. Yeah. You know, you're on your own. And, and, you know, the damage is, you know, terrible to these men and they did not deserve it. But the damage to, uh, the damage to, uh, to these women would be harder to cure, harder to fix, more difficult to solve. It's more difficult to help them become good people and healthy people again. And so they're extremely vulnerable group of people.

Yeah. Right. Right. Like Ruby. Yeah. There was a difference between me saying, hey, this pedophile did this terrible stuff to me at Scout Camp when I was a kid. And somebody accusing me of doing stuff to children. Yeah.

In other words, when you are acting the damage to other people, that is a much worse thing to heal from than to have the damage happen to, in my opinion. Now, damage can be in totally different context. But, I mean, these are, like, I look at this lady, eight, eight passengers as a complete person who had issues, maybe wasn't the best mom, maybe wasn't the best spouse. Right. mental health. Yeah. Got into Jody's doctrine. Jody completely whirled her out of her power and her money and out of her reasonable thinking,

just like she did with my ex-wife and my ex-wife truly believed in her eyes. But putting the couch, the backpack on the couch was abuse that needed the place to be there. Like she lost objectivity. And it's smart, educated woman with, you know, 4.0 tons of laying. languages, traveling the world. How did it come to this? So I think that if we invite victims to come forward, you're going to see victims, tons of stories about how Jody destroyed everything for the wife and the family. But you're also going to see these other victims that are the women that do the destruction

that in their own little head it made sense to them. And they were so sick they couldn't see what was going on. And I'm not, I don't want to give a free card if someone has a prison term they need to serve. But I, but if I'm honest, I have to say that this lady was incredibly, incredibly dangerous. And the huge problem with Jody is that she had learned how to do the most subtle of things and the most elaborate of ways to orchestrate the most devastating of consequences, right in plain daylight with nobody being able to see the moving piece that would tag her. Thank you for sharing with us, Adam. Thank you and for your time today. Before I finish recording, is there anything else you want to share?

Yeah, a little advice to everybody that talks to somebody that comes forward. If you're out there and somebody's talking, you to come forward and they're sharing traumatic stuff, the way you can tell it's traumatic is it's like a monologue and it's like in lots of detail. It's not socially, normally acceptable to talk to people like that. I give them a green card because it's not how they are in their normal life. It is how people deal with trauma. And the other thing is when somebody's done talking about the trauma, talk to them about light subjects for five or ten minutes

so that they don't feel triggered by feeling alienated right after talking about intense stuff. And yeah, because I know a lot of victims are going to come forward. If you're the spouse of a guy that went suffered through Jody or the girlfriend or the mom or the dad, just take the advice. It'll help you. Yeah. Speaking of that, Adam, have you ever been to Cirque du Soleil in Las Vegas? What's the circus delay? Oh, Cirque du Soleil is like a version of the circus in Las Vegas.

It's like a... Oh, I think I've heard of it. Oh, you've heard of it. All right. Well, if you come through Vegas, you're going to have to come knock on our door and visit, and we'll have to take you to Cirque du Soleil. So it's a lot of fun, and it's kind of a recreation of the circus. And if we're lucky, maybe it'll get your mind off of such a heavy subject.

You know, the thing is, I live a pretty optimistic, fun life. It's just like everybody was just, you know, there's these deep parts of life. that were never fixed. I would say you also have lived a very interesting life and a life with a lot of meaning. And I thank you for that because your life is a lesson to many of us. And I thank you for sharing the darker parts of it despite it being good and happy and fun. Thank you for trusting us. Hello, Hidden Gems.

It's Lauren with Hidden a True Crime podcast as a TV reporter of I learned the art of visual storytelling. So if you're like me, you enjoy listening, but also viewing. You can actually head to our YouTube channel, Hidden True Crime, to watch these interviews. Hit the subscribe button for surprise lives and breaking news. And for exclusive content, things Dr. John and I only dare say behind a paywall, become a Patreon member at patreon.com slash hidden true crime. You'll find bonus episodes, early releases, and insider insider.

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