Hidden True Crime - RUBY FRANKE/JODI HILDEBRANDT: Legal Analysis of Sentencing

Episode Date: February 28, 2024

Lauren Matthias speaks to defense attorney Natalie Whittingham Burrell to understand the sentencing of Jodi Hildebrandt and Ruby Franke that took place earlier that morning. Stay tuned for additional coverage from Hidden True Crime in St George, Utah on the day the pair were sentenced for 4 counts of aggravated child abuse. Justice is served in a Utah courtroom on February 20th, 2024 in the case of YouTuber mom Ruby Franke and her therapist Jodi Hildebrandt. Hidden Host Lauren Matthias reported live. Stay tuned for additional episodes and a full report of the days events. Host and psychologist Dr John Matthias will also soon weigh in on the statements. August 30, 2023--a brave 12-year-old boy escapes a house of torture in Southern Utah --rescuing himself and his 10-year-old sister. A neighbor feeds the emaciated boy and calls 911. The children's mother YouTube Celebrity Ruby Franke, and Ruby's therapist Jodi Hildebrandt, are arrested and charged with 6 counts of aggravated child abuse. Thank you for your support by joining Patreon Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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their expertise because we certainly need it right now. Natalie. Now let me just tell you how this live played out by the way. I'm here in St. George, Utah, where the sentencing is taking place. Natalie and I have both been following this case from the beginning of Ruby Frankie, YouTube, mom, and Jody Hildebrandt therapist. And I came down to report on it. I was with law and crime, as was Natalie. So we were both on law and crime just now. You can go watch law and crimes reports and follow them today.

They did a great job covering it. And Natalie and I were both on there. So right when we concluded, we texted each other and said, hey, can we go live right now and discuss this because I really needed a lawyer. I really needed to help breaking down what happened today in court. And I'll of course share some of my thoughts as well. Well, but what a big day. Ruby, Frankie and Jody Hildebrandt both sentenced. In my opinion, I feel like justice was served because they couldn't have had a, you know, a bigger sentence,

a longer sentence as far as I know. Yeah. And I think I always look at Natalie, like, correct me if I'm wrong. You know, I love your nods. Thank you. I'm like, okay. You're absolutely right on that. The expert says I'm right. And Ruby seemed to show some remorse. She gave a very long speech. It was almost like an award show. I felt thanking everyone there and thanking those in the hospital, the doctors, the police that arrested her, apologizing. Jody Hildebrandt, not so much. I was waiting for her, Natalie, to say something like, and this is my fault or I am really sorry. Okay. And, you know, not one line to, you know, she said she loved the kids, which I thought was disgusting, honestly, and then said that they hope they heal. And I want to be like, from what, Jody, from you,

from you say it say it they did it but i think that all you know those are my few initial thoughts but let's let's get down to what you can help us with natalie can you explain this process because to me this was not the average sentencing right so the reason that i feel like this sentencing hearing itself felt kind of like what just happened is because everything was pretty much a foregone conclusion there is a written sentencing or plea agreement between Ruby Frankie, the prosecutors, Jody Hildebrandt, the prosecutors. And so we knew going into this, based on that plea agreement, what they were going to receive. So it was very limited in what the defense attorneys could even do because they agreed ahead of time. They wouldn't be asking for anything other than a consecutive sentence.

They wouldn't be asking for less than what the prosecutor was asking for, which is completely unique to this case. I have never entered into a plea agreement with any of my clients where I say, I am not free to ask for something, you know? Or if we're not free to ask for anything, we're certainly not pleading to the very top count with the highest amount of a potential sentence. Usually, if it's an agreed upon sentence, it's something that's much lower than what the client could potentially get. So that's kind of why it kind of felt a little weird. So let me just kind of, if you don't mind, give me a bit of leeway. explaining.

So basically what happened here is this is, from the defense's perspective, a long-term view at setting their clients up to eventually get out on parole because Utah is unique in that there isn't a limitation on when the parole board can start looking at their cases. So if they don't put the prosecution through all the rigmarole role of having to do a trial, they don't traumatize the children further by having them testify, then maybe, the parole board will look at them and say, okay, you're remorseful. I'm going, we're going to let you out a little bit earlier than you normally would get out. Basically what they're saying is from the defense perspective, we know that if this case went to trial,

we likely would not be successful. So how can we diminish the damage that they receive? And you can tell that Ruby Frankie was following along with her attorney's recommendation that she seemed as contrite as possible, as apologetic as possible. I think I let slip there on. on long crime that I'm side-eyeing that remorsefulness, but okay. We all are. It's okay.

It's okay. And Jody Hildebrand, I think just as a operation of her personality or something, is just unable to come out and say, I'm sorry, and I take full responsibility for my actions. But both of their lawyers negotiated it that way. So what does the technical sentence mean? It's one to 15 years for each count. It's four counts of one to 15 years. And so it's four to what should be 60 years, but it won't be because there's a Utah statute

that limits the maximum penalty for consecutive sentences to only 30 years. So I shouldn't say only like 30 years is nothing. You know, that's a big amount of time of anyone's life. But they're going to be looking at parole. You know, I think it was Hilda Brand's attorney who said at one of the previous hearings, a press conference where he said they could convene the parole board right away if they wanted to. So I don't even know if they'll serve. it's more likely they'll serve that full four years,

but it's not a foregone conclusion that they won't. And so that's kind of what happened here. Everything's been worked out ahead of time through the plea agreement, and they knew what they were going to get going in. And today was just kind of more performative to signal to the parole board to let them go. Okay. And thank you. You know,

I think another thing that's really interesting about this sentencing, and maybe you can help us explain this is, you know, there's, we still don't know exactly how long, as you point out, that they're going to serve. And usually we like it to conclude at a sentencing. I want to know that I go to Lori Valo-Dabell sentencing, and we know that she's going to have life behind bars.

And there's, but this is here they were sentenced, but we still don't know exactly how long they will both serve. Can you explain about what has to happen next and why that's the case? Right. So it's because Utah does not have a formulaic system about their, parole. So in some states like the state of Maryland, if you're convicted of certain type of misdemeanor crimes, you're eligible for parole on a prison sentence after a quarter of your sentence. If it's a serious felony or a crime of violence, you're eligible for parole at

half of your sentence. And many states follow that rubric. Utah does not. So with that four years, more than likely, they'll have to serve at least that four year part of the sentence before they start looking at being able to get out on parole. But, But it's really not a certain thing from what I've seen so far from legal practitioners I've spoken to in Utah. It's just not sure what will happen. And that's kind of dissatisfying because you, like you said, Lauren, you want to know. What are they going to really do? But think about it on the other side of things.

Ruby Frankie and Jody Hildebrand are also going to be in prison with a lot of that uncertainty. They cannot step out of place even a little bit because any possibility of them getting out relies on that parole board. and the parole board has total discretion. So they can just decide, I don't care what you say, we're not going to let you out. So they really do have to be on their P's and Q's in there. And so do you think then that they are going to get the same time behind bars or different? Because they gave very different speeches. And it seems like at the press conference as well, there seemed to be something that I saw.

A lot of people were putting more blame on Jody. It seemed to be a trend. They all use different words. that was the feeling I thought and felt. She's the therapist. She's the one of position to power. She was certainly the least remorseful. Again, I'm still really angry about her speech that she gave. And right, I can question Ruby's remorse, right? I can question it, but least she laid it out there, right? I'll give her that. And by saying, okay, I appreciate that she did that. Doesn't mean I feel sorry for her either. But she at least did that.

Did the thing. That's the thing that you want them to do. yes. Yes. So you want them to do that, whether or not you question it, whether or not it's authentic. She did it. Jody couldn't even bring yourself to do it. So now going back to my original question that I've asked you, do you feel that they will see a similar time behind bars? Or do you think that they're going to sentence them differently?

They were sentenced, but do you think that the board is going to put them behind bars for a different amount of time? I think from, okay, so there's the difference between what the parole board will do. what the prosecution is going to be recommending. And so I hate to say this, but I have the feeling based on the procedural history of the case and the press conference from the prosecutor that as a part of Ruby Frankie being the first one to plead guilty, they probably are of the idea that somehow she's less culpable because she was a follower of Jody Hildebrand. And so if they make a recommendation to the parole board, and they said in her in her paperwork that basically they were essentially promising not to not to trash her to the parole board when it came time for it, that they would basically stand back.

If they stand back or they give her a positive recommendation, she's way more likely to get out sooner than Jody Hildebrand. I think that's completely unfair. And I think that it's a misreading of the situation. I feel like they've been manipulated, but that's not. neither here nor there. They are of the opinion that Jody is the mastermind. Ruby is the follower. And so I think they're going to make a recommendation for her or at least they're not going to jump up and down and ask that she stay in, which that's not the case with Jody. They're definitely not going to make a recommendation for her. They're probably going to recommend that she not be released. And so she's definitely going to have a harder time. Now, what is the parole board going to do? Is the parole board going to say, okay, we see you, Mr. Prosecutor. this was your case, you were closest to it.

We're going to go along with your recommendation. Aren't they going to make their own independent assessment looking at the case and all of the facts behind it and the horrific abuse the children suffered and say, we're not going to release her. You know, I'll say as a human being, I would hope it's the latter and not the former, but you just don't know. As the Krispy Chicken Sandwich from 7-Eleven, people always call me loud. And I'm like, yeah, I know. I'm Krispy. Did you expect me to whisper? If you want quiet, go eat some soup and reflect.

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that that aspect of her lack of remorse as a risk factor in yes okay yes they will and it is a risk factor a let it's not just a lack of remorse it's a lack of insight ruby has it as well ruby said something at, I don't know if you reference at all that initial hearing for the custody of the children where the media was in there and Ruby said those things about the allegations against her own children.

Yes. That's what I'm saying. It's a play. It's a play. Because when she said that stuff about her children, that was her justifying what she did to them. So she's just like Jody. But Jody is, excuse the turn of phrase, too dumb to figure

out, I got to play a play along like how Ruby does, right? Like she's too unwell to really get it together. But that's beside the point because I'm really frustrated with the idea that Ruby's going to be held to a lesser standard than Jody and Ruby is the mother of those children. But anyway, Jody, yes, is very, very dangerous. And it's not only that because this didn't come into consideration with the judge.

It wasn't a part of the case. But according to Jody's own niece, you know, or relative who was her niece, to Jessie, she's done this before. According to the people that she's treated, she has alienated families. So I don't see how she's not a risk to turn around and do it again because she doesn't have the insight to see how it was wrong. She thinks she's right.

She thinks that she's answering to a higher power. And so how can you trust that she's going to follow the power and authority of earthly law is she thinks that there's a godly law that's drawing her to commit these atrocities against people's children. She's definitely dangerous. Amen. Preach. I completely agree with you just said. And that's what we saw with Lori Valladabelle, which is exactly why she's a risk factor. You brought up the religious aspect. If you believe that God is say this is okay and that you're justifying this, what's to say you're not going to do it again? Absolutely. Right. So it is an absolute risk factor. You know, I love what you said to remind people of what you brought up this moment

that at this the juvenile court it was in juvenile court right it was right after uh ruby and jody were arrested and charged they had a placement for the children the abuse victims r f and e f and ruby stated in that moment that the kids were dangerous that's what you're referring to yeah so just to remind people of that moment that natalie is bringing up yeah that was a very shocking upsetting point in this case. So I'm glad to see that's not still happening, but it was clear. And you know, Adam Paul Steed who got up there today,

someone's asking, in fact, let me pull this up really quickly. Let me explain who he is. Marine asked, what do you think of the news conference after the man who jumped up at the end? Let me share who he is. Do you know who he is, Natalie? Adam Paul Steed you know well, right. Right. Exactly.

Yeah, of, uh, Jody Hildebrand. Absolutely, yes. Yes. And he didn't make it super clear who he was. So to help people understand he was a former client of Jody Hildebrand's. He was an abuse victim by the Boy Scouts of America. He was abused by Jody Hildebrand and made to look like the abuser. There is documentation I've seen. We've interviewed him on our channel. And he is the reason that Jody Hildebrandt's therapy license was suspended for a time.

But of course, she clearly got that back. But so just to explain and answer the question of people that didn't know who he was. Did you watch him at the press conference? I know that you had concluded. Yeah, you're working. Yeah, I went to the very next thing right after that. You've got a full work day. Yeah, you're an incredible defense attorney working hard while jumping on alive.

We thank you so much, Natalie, for being here. You know, another question I have is people are asking, you said four years, they're shocked. Four years, as they pointed out that this was like a concentration camp for these children. Some people have said they haven't seen a worse abuse of children in this area, not everyone, but some have stated that they referred to in the probable cause as life-threatening injuries. They've referred to this as torture. And people are saying four years, four years. And yet we both agree that this is the biggest sentencing that they could have received. So we feel justice was served. Can you explain why?

why this is possibly is it well let me ask you is it because it's a second degree felony or why why only four years for something like this or the possibility of four years right because and again guys don't assume that they'll only serve four years but it's a possibility that at least with ruby

because of what the prosecutor says he hopes she serves at least the four years and then he's okay with her going because she's the follower so these things are set by statute right the legislatures get together the lawmakers and they decide what the maximum and minimum penalties are going to be. In some states, there's not even a minimum penalty for charges. So a person could get out, they could get a year instead of, you know, whatever.

So it's only because of the minimum penalty that you know with some level of certainty that they'll be there for four years. But that was just set by your local lawmakers. If you are a resident of Utah, you don't think that people should only serve a minimum of one year for one child abuse charge, then you need to write to your local legislatures. But before you do that, do take this into consideration. There's this saying that we say in the law that, you know, bad cases make for bad law. And that's where, you know, it's just the worst possible example of something, the most horrific.

It can cause you to want to overreact and then change everything for everyone else. And then it ends up becoming unjust. So there is the possibility that this is one of the most horrific types of. child abuse that you could ever conceive of. I mean, injuries down to the bone and all types of scary things like that. And that the average person charged and convicted of child abuse has done nothing near this, right? Child abuse is horrible, but they've done nothing near this. So maybe there's a bunch of mitigating circumstances like they themselves were at that moment being abused or they were mentally ill or something like that. And you would say, this unique person, I'd

like to give them the chance to only serve a year or two years. But now they're looking at, you know, four years and you don't think that that's as just. So you have to remember that every single case, no matter how horrific this case is, and it's horrible, every single case, you know, will need that level of gradation to give the judge a discretion to be able to give mercy to a person that might have some really extreme mitigating circumstances. And I know it's hard to conceive of, but I have had cases with clients where I'm like, oh, my God, I don't even know how you've made it this far. Thankfully, you know, we're here to intervene now.

Let's try to get you some services. That does happen. And so we just want to be very careful to not overreact. But if you're, if you really feel strongly, you're a resident of Utah, that child abuse of this nature should not look at these, should not have the potential of somebody walking out of prison after four years. You need to talk to your legislature about that. Thank you for sharing that.

And so to clarify for those that are in you, or to understand Utah law, the counts, the four counts are aggravated child abuse. And aggravated child abuse in the state of Utah is only a second degree felony. Thus, Natalie, great point. If you feel that that needs to change and it should be more than a second degree felony, write your state legislature. Thank you for explaining that. That we can make the difference if that's something you feel strongly about.

Natalie, thank you so much to share with our hidden gems. I will be appearing on News Nation tonight. I hope to go live a little bit later today. Again, I am in St. George, Utah. I actually hope to maybe catch up with Adam Paul Steed and John DeLinn with Mormon stories. And Natalie, you do incredible work. I needed an attorney on today.

You thank you for your incredible YouTube channel. Everyone go subscribe. Everyone go follow Natalie. And I see a lot of people saying this is a great collaboration. You ladies need to be back on again. And we will. The truth is, and I have been talking about doing a collaboration for quite a while. And I am not really good

to scheduling. And you're a really hard worker working day and night doing what you do. So we do hope we do hope to continue more collaborations with Natalie. She's an incredible woman and attorney. Thank you so much. And to my hidden gems, watch me on Banfield tonight and hit subscribe, hit notifications because I am in town and I do plan to go live later again today, if not once, twice. So thank you everyone for being here, and we'll see you later today. Ladies and gentlemen, we are now boarding group A. Please have your boarding passes ready to scan. If your phone is cracked, old, or was chewed up by your Chihuahua travel companion,

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