Hidden True Crime - RUBY FRANKE/JODI HILDEBRANDT: Shocking new evidence -Criminal Psychologist Reacts

Episode Date: March 26, 2024

Dr John Matthias, forensic psychologist, breaks down videos, interviews and body cam footage in a massive document dump this week in a case we've been following from the beginning. THE CASE: August 30, 2023--a brave 12-year-old boy named "R" escapes a house of torture in Southern Utah, rescuing himself and his 10-year-old sister "E". The children's mother YouTube Celebrity Ruby Franke, and Ruby's therapist Jodi Hildebrandt, are arrested and charged with 6 counts of aggravated child abuse. JOHN MATTHIAS is a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with 30 years’ experience. He serves as an expert witness for the federal government and consults on high-profile cases for District Attorney’s offices and defense attorneys in several states. In the forensic area, Dr. Matthias has developed expertise in personality assessments, hidden behavioral motivations, complex trauma and criminal psychology. In the clinical realm, he has worked with numerous victims. He received his Master’s degree in Marriage, Family and Child counseling, as well his doctorate degree, from the University of Southern California. Dr. Matthias graduated with honors in philosophy from Princeton University, and he won the prestigious McCosh Thesis prize while there. In high school he graduated valedictorian from a large public high school in Chicago where he was chosen to participate in a ground-breaking valedictory study that continues to this day. LAUREN MATTHIAS worked as an anchor and reporter for a decade in Utah and Idaho. Most recently, she reported for Salt Lake City’s ABC affiliate News4Utah. In 2015 she received the Idaho State Broadcaster’s Association Best Reporter award and is a regular contributor on News Nation. She left the reporting world to produce the Hidden True Crime Podcast along with her husband Dr. John Matthias. HIDDEN: A TRUE CRIME PODCAST is: CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY REINVENTED. Join us on a journey into the darkest recesses of the human mind and the unconscious motivations that drive human behaviors in order to understand the world and ourselves. SUPPORT: https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime  Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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happiness at work from AI products. All right, so when the news first broke that YouTuber Ruby Frankie

and her self-help guru Jody Hildebrand had been arrested in charge with abusing two of Frankie's children.

Some people thought that it was just a case of strict parenting that maybe crossed the line a little. But now we

know it was so much worse than that. There are these disturbing photos and videos that have just been released by Utah prosecutors showing the extent of the horrendous injuries that were inflicted on those poor children. And there you see that her there acting like some parenting guru when we know what was actually happening behind the scenes. They're so graphic, I want to warn you before we show them because they're very, very disturbing. In the photos, you see the emaciated victims with infected cuts on their legs, sores on their feet, scratches on their bodies. Look at that. There's duct tape

around their wrists and ankles. She did this to these kids. Investigators also found rope used to tie the kids up. There was a small room in the basement that was locked from the outside. It was almost like a safe room prison cell. That's from the body camera video right there. the kids had to wear diapers. These older kids were wearing diapers because when they were restrained in doing manual labor, they weren't even allowed to go to the bathroom. They had to wear the diapers.

Prosecutors also released redacted pages of Frankie's personal journal where she was describing the abuse in detail. She was writing about it. Frankie and Hilda Brandt had a system in place where the kids would be given difficult tasks, and if they failed to perform them, they would receive very severe punishments.

In one entry, Frankie describes how her 12-year-old son refused to do what they called wall sits. So the next day, he was told to live outside. He had to sleep outside. He was only allowed to come inside to use the shower and the bathroom. Another entry describes Frankie's 10-year-old daughter being forced to fast, not allowed to eat for multiple days. And when the girl tried to end the fast early and sneak some food and eat, Frankie chopped off her hair.

Other entries describe the children being whipped with a belt and forced to stand outside for hours in the hot sun. The journal also offers a clear look at how Frankie and Hildebrand's religious extremism apparently fueled all this abuse. The women believed the children were evil and possessed. Sound familiar? I'm going to get to that in a second. And needed to be punished to repent. The abuse came to light on August 30th, 2023, after Frankie's son was able to escape from Hildebrandt's.

house where he had been tied up. He ran to a neighbor's home where he asked the neighbor to call 911. And this is also new video. We got the door cam video of the moment. That's also now been released by prosecutors. We've got it. Take a look. He could do two favors, just one's fine personal business. What's your name? He also has... Oh, and he has... Rift as well.

I mean, his wrist as well. Okay, this boy has been. Need immediate attention. Oh, you were such a good kid. This kid is all, but she's been. I said you can't. Wow, that is so sad, and he's asking for it to go to the police station. In total four of Frankie's six children were removed from her care. They were taken into family services.

Frankie and Hilda Brand were initially charged with six counts of aggravated child abuse, but two were dismissed when they took plea deals. And in February, they were both sentenced to four consecutive terms of one to 15. of one to 15 years in prison. I wanna bring in Lauren Matthias now. She's a reporter and host of Hidden a True Crime podcast. Lauren, it's always good to see you.

I remember you and I talked about this case before and we just had the details. We had the police reports, but I mean to see those images and to see him go ring that doorbell with the duct tape around his hands and his ankles, it is just, it's worse than I could have ever imagined. It's horrible.

Well, you know, watching him ring that doorbell and that moment where you can tell that he's going to be helped. It makes me emotional to watch it. I couldn't believe reading some of the things, Brian, we saw in one body camp footage, police describing the injuries and then explaining how they were taking the dressing off of Little R. And then they realized that it wasn't the dressing. It was his skin. It was so bad. And you saw the photos there. And that we learned that it was days of this, weeks of this.

months of this, that their own mother reported what she did to them in her journal entries. I couldn't believe that, that she was writing all of this down. They've now got all this evidence. Meanwhile, everybody's watching Ruby Frankie's YouTube videos thinking that she's some kind of parenting expert. You can't even make this up. It's so awful. It's horrible. It's horrible. And then to find out that she was actually writing in her journal that her own children were evil, We also now have jail phone calls that are recorded where she is explaining that people don't understand that children can be evil. Reiterating, after her arrest, her children are evil. They're possessed.

They're following Satan. Yeah, and you know what I thought of, and I know it's the first thing that you thought of, too, when she talks about this religious spell, thought of Lori Valo. It all sounds very, very eerily familiar. and Ruby Frankie spoke at the sentencing, which I think is kind of relevant now. I want to play that clip and then we'll talk about it, Lord. We don't have the clip, but basically she goes into this whole Lori Vallow thing, that the kids are evil, that you have to get the evil out. I'm not sure I really saw that coming.

No, yeah, the first thing I thought of was what you thought of, Brian, exactly. This is very reminiscent of Lori Vallow and Chad DeBow, that they thought the children were evil. And we know how that ended, you know, in the death of the children, the murders of those two children. And, you know, I just want to point out that those similarities, they're very real. This small southern Utah town, this is the very same area

where Chad Daybell and Lori Vall met, and there are a lot of like-minded people there who read similar books. So I'm going to say that that similarity is not, that's not something to kind of put on the side. I think it's something that's very frightening and something we need to keep our eye on here. I think you're right and I don't think enough people realize that. I think they watched the Lori Vallow trial

and thought this is some crazy mom and it is an evil person. But I don't think people realize, Lauren, like we sort of were exposed to when we were out there covering it, that there are other people who maybe don't take it to that extreme, hopefully, but have these insane beliefs that their kids can be evil and that you have to get the evil out. This is like a thing with certain religious cults. It is a thing with very, yes, with certain religious cults.

And many of these people are from some similar areas, reading some similar books. I'll just say that. We've been looking into this for years and it's very concerning. Yeah, it is. Were you surprised, Lauren, that no one seemed to know that this was going on, especially now that we see the photos and the injuries? And I don't know if these kids just, like, weren't going to school. I assume they were homeschooled, but like, did no one notice what was happening?

It really took the kid having to go to the neighbor's house and ring the doorbell? It's upsetting. It's manning to think that nobody noticed this. Not just, you know, in Springville, Utah up north where Ruby Frankie is from when they were calls being made, but also Jody Hildebrand as a therapist, as a professional in southern Utah, there had been complaints about her. Her license had been suspended for a time. And there are other children that have come forward as adults and said she did this to me, too, to think that she was able to practice for so many years. Were people just looking the other way? Could they just not believe this?

We've got to stop this from happening again in my – and I hope that we will catch this earlier next time. It's just horrendous. Yeah, and I just hope that these kids are going to be okay and get some love and therapy and whatever they need because obviously they have been through hell. Lauren Matthias, thank you so much for joining us on a Friday night. It's not a fun topic to talk about, but it's always nice to see you. You too, Brian, thanks. These things are going to be so she wouldn't write. The stuff she wrote in the pen paper, she would not write in her journal.

The stuff she wrote in the pen papers was not intended to be read by anybody until God would decree them to be written as scripture for the whole world to read. Hidden, a true crime podcast. A forensic psychologist and a journalist explore the hidden motives behind unthinkable crimes while examining our deepest fears along the way. It's time for another hidden hour. Wow.

Let me just say, what a day it's been. What a two days it's been. Thank you to a team of people, people who helped watch our son, people, team members, who helped us research all of the evidence that just poured out yesterday on the Ruby Frankie Jody Hildebrand case. A special thanks to our Gem Shelley who helped us go through everything today. Big show.

And just so everybody knows, why are we seeing so much evidence in the Ruby Frankie Jody Hildebrandt eight passenger case? It is because when they were sentenced on the 21st of February, they stated, that all of the FOIA documents and all of the evidence would be unsealed 30 days post their sentencing. And that was yesterday. So it came down and we are going through everything, recordings, interviews, everything. John has been working in his office all day. And John, I will just actually honestly let you take it away. We have a bunch of videos to share. you direct me and tell me where you would like to start. Let's start with the Kevin Frankie audio.

We're going to go through a lot of the Kevin Frankie Audio Fiable because I really think it shows us the process of, to some degree, of indoctrination into a cult. And I think that'll really take us into Jody Hildebrand's psyche and what she's up to and how she's kind of maneuvering this situation. So the Kevin Frankie audio is really important. The other thing I think that's important is that this is really like Daybell, like the Daybell case, this is really a story about belief to a large degree, the psychology of belief.

So we'll be talking about belief systems and how beliefs affect us and behavior. And we'll see some of the beliefs that are in play here. And some of those beliefs, as you know, Lauren, many of those beliefs have similarities to Daybell. which, you know, fortunately in this case, there were no fatalities. So we can be grateful for that. But I feel like it feels like this case was ominous in the sense that it was on the cusp. Absolutely. It was right on the cusp of fatal actions between Jody and Ruby.

And we'll talk about that too. Yes. Let me pull this up then. You're saying, is it like a satchel looking leather? Or is it more a combinder? No, well, no, it's like, I didn't even know what it did it call it. But it's, it's flat. It's, well, yeah, so you see.

It's like a shorter, because we do have Ruby's journal, which is from those dates that you mentioned. These things are going to be so she wouldn't write. The stuff she wrote in the pen papers, she would not write in her journal. The stuff she wrote in the pen papers was not intended to be. read by anybody until God would decree them to be written as scripture for the whole world to read. I believe that's what we have. Because you're saying the pen would be different, correct? Like a... Well it was just in a thing called the pen papers. So it was and that's how Ruby referred to those papers. So it described

all of the visions and trances and everything that Jody and Ruby went into. How thick would you say it was? It was like three inches thick or so. And there were hundreds of pages of written documents that Ruby had. And that was given to Jody in 2022 when she left and returned to her home in January. So this is similar. Yeah, like it would look like that. Okay.

So this is the beginning of the Kevin Frankie interview. So this would be the second interview with police, by the way. The second interview was audio only. The first interview was video. So if people are going through this evidence, the interview you want to look for here is the audio version. And this was recorded later. So the original interview Kevin Frankie gave to police occurred. immediately after the arrests and then this interview occurs later.

But two minutes into this interview, you have Kevin already talking about this thing called the pen papers. And this is amazing to me. I mean, when I heard this, and I heard this description of it, of course, I went right to Daybell again in the sense that the pen papers are something that Ruby, first of all, this is important, that Ruby is the one recording the pen papers. So Rudy is the one responsible for these papers. Jody's involved in them, and some of it involves recording Jody's visions and trances, apparently both Ruby and Jody's visions and trances.

But they're equally responsible. But Jody is the one actually recording, and Kevin says that Ruby believes that these will become scripture. Yes. And they're just waiting for the word of God to enter these into, I don't know if they're, that means LDS, scripture. I'm not quite sure how they mean that. But obviously, this is fascinating to me because number one, it suggests that Ruby is very culpable.

You know, the belief has been, our belief has been, and I've stated that I felt like Jody was sort of the ringleader and leading the charge. And now here you have a, you have Kevin saying essentially that Jody is equally involved, that Jody is writing these pen papers, that Jody has, in some ways, she's leading in writing these papers, recording them.

She thinks they're going to be scripture. And again, getting back to Daibel, this sort of reminds me of the Daybell situation where Chad is definitely in charge, in my opinion, and Lori goes along, but Lori has a tremendous amount of influence. And so I think you see something similar here. I think Jody's in charge of this cult, but Ruby has a huge amount of influence.

And you see this here with the pen papers. By the way, nobody's clear where these pen papers are. It's not clear if the police confiscated these during their search. It's not clear if somebody else took them from the home. I don't think we've quite located these pen papers, but I would sure love to see the pen papers. because I think there's a lot of significance there. And if I'm assessing, so one big question here is they've taken plea deals,

they've been sentenced, but that we don't know the amount of sentencing. So this is still in process, this still has to go to the parole board. What's important here is, I think, in trying to determine the amount of time to provide for the sentencing, it's going to be really important to determine risk. and in a big part of determining risk will be related to this issue of belief and culpability. And so here with these pen papers, we see that Ruby,

who was clearly the most supposedly the most remorseful during her sentencing, we see that Ruby plays an equally large role in this relationship and in this belief system and probably in the crimes being committed. So I think it's important for the parole board to look at this interview very closely if they haven't already. And I don't know. I assume that the prosecutors clearly went through this evidence very carefully.

But Kevin is giving us a lot of really interesting information here about what's going on. And he's giving us kind of an inside look, not only based on his own experience, but what he knows of their relationship and how it unfolds and who believes what and who's responsible for what. And I think this is an important moment because we learn that these pen papers are crafted by Ruby. They contain the visions of Jody and Ruby both. So this isn't just in the sentencing hearing, it appeared for people not familiar with the case. It would have appeared that Ruby was completely the victim of Jody. She was brainwashed by Jody. She went along with Jody.

And now that Jody was in prison, that Ruby was free. She's her own person. She thanked everybody in the courtroom, including the detectives who arrested her. Right. She was giving like an Oscar worthy type speech. And the implication was that Ruby was a pure victim of Jody's, that she wasn't really culpable. And clearly, when you look at this evidence, we're starting to see that she is culpable. that her beliefs, her beliefs around the treatment of children and these crimes that runs deep. And this is problematic to me.

Because after the sentencing, the prosecutor held a press conference and basically said, isn't Ruby great? She seems so remorseful. Clearly she's going to do less time. I think that needs to be re-evaluated. Well said. I want to say, yeah, I'm so glad you brought up the pen papers. the most interesting thing about it is he sits down for this interview and they're like,

okay, let's do this. And he goes, wait, before we begin, do you have the pen papers? That's what he says to police. He goes, wait, but before we even start, do you have them? And they're like, no, we don't. And I want to say this too. I realize now, do you remember the body cam footage where Kevin is very angry at Sherry for taking journals out of the house?

I think that's what Kevin thought she had taken were these. pen papers. We don't know if the police has them or if they're elsewhere or if, you know, Pam Bond sure has them or whatever. But I thank you for bringing that up. I'm so used to, you know, playing off you when having this dialogue. Our show is basically a dialogue between us. People always say to us, by the way, I should stop interrupting him. It is true, admittedly, and he should not interrupt me sometimes. It depends on who's feeling what at what time. But the truth is, I think we both were married. We comfort one another even when we interrupt. So I apologize. is everyone.

Yeah. It's our dance. It's our dance. But I do try not to interrupt him as much when I hear you guys yelling and comments. But before I let you start again, the other thing I want to point out with the pen papers is it also reminds me of Tim Ballard. Tim Ballard kept his visions and things that he saw and his blessing. So it's Dey Bal, and there's scriptures.

And it's Tim Ballard. And it's just this major religious component of being called of God. which, by the way, yeah. Go ahead. Right. The commonality is this grandiosity about writing something so important. It's going to be scripture. It's going to be eternal. It's going to last forever. You know, there's this desire, I think, among all these players. Chad Daybell's books became scripture later. Tim Ballard's notebooks were scripture. I think there's this desire for transcendence, this desire to write something.

something that's going to matter so much that it'll be recognized by God and it will be recognized for eternity. And so I think the underlying theme there is you have this tremendous, not just religiosity, but you have this tremendous grandiosity that's driving so much of this. And this grandiosity is, I think, up to a large degree about transcending mortality. Yes. And speaking of that, Let's, so I'm going to start putting together some pieces from this evidence that we just received from this document dump. And hopefully that'll provide some insight into some of the motives and some of the hidden motives and some of the not so hidden motives, by the way, too. So, but let's play a clip from, I want to play, this is something that we had talked about on a previous episode, but we had done an analysis of Jody Hildebrandt talking at the Eternal Core conference in 2019. Yes, we did.

I want to play a bit of that again because that'll help us start making sense of what's going on here. Great. And by the way, all of the videos I've played thus far are on our YouTube channel. You can find them there. So this is one of our first videos that we did in analyzing Jody Fildebrand. And you are scheduled, as am I, to have hard, difficult experiences. and you are being asked by your maker to stay inside truth. If you will stay inside truth, you will not become ill.

You just won't. I know some people in the audience are probably like, I don't know about that. Try me out. You start living in truth. I don't know anybody who lives in truth that is emotionally and spiritually sick. I don't know anybody.

I don't know thousands of people who have done this. my desire is to spread their threat the whole entire world. It teaches many people and therapists and mental health professionals and health professionals who want to start empowering their clients regardless of where your client has been

if they've had traumas or abuses, they can heal. Is that good? Yep, we're good. So she wants to spread it to the entire world. She says, quote, my desire is to spread this throughout the whole entire world. I think she said whole entire.

But this is important because this occurs in 2019. This is around the time that she meets Ruby Frankie. Ruby Frankie in 2019 has one of the biggest YouTube channels in the world. Ruby Frankie in 2019 is making millions of dollars and has millions of subscribers on her YouTube channel. So one of the questions people ask is, why Ruby Frankie? How did Ruby Frankie get pulled into all of this? And I think, so when you hear Jody Hildebrandt saying, basically, she wants to achieve world domination with not only her personality, but her ideas.

And when you hear about the pen papers and scripture and talking to God, I mean, So a picture starts to develop here, clearly, about Jody Hildebrandt's motivations. Chody Hildebrandt doesn't find Ruby Frankie just to be a nice person that gets along, that she can get along well with and, you know, can help her develop her business. She finds Ruby Frankie to be essentially, I think, an object that she can use. And she sees, I think, her platform as a platform that will help her achieve this goal. of spreading her views, her gospel, her ideas that's from connections to quote, to quote her, to spread her ideas throughout the whole entire world.

So you have a situation here where you have someone, Jody, who has a set of beliefs and ideas that are quite literal and quite religious. And you have someone, Jody, who has this desire for world domination. And roughly in 2019, early 2019, Ruby Frankie reaches out to Jody for help with one of her children. There's a teenager having problems. And that's how they meet. So Kevin in his interview, Kevin is going to help us understand a little bit more about what's going on here. Thank you, Kevin.

He does, man. this interview and his information is wild. Go ahead, John. So just to provide some background here, in March 2021, Jody apparently has some sort of mental health crisis and she ends up spending six weeks at a friend's house. This is in northern Utah.

So she's at this friend's house. There's conflicting versions of what happened there, by the way. Jody later says, according to Kevin, that Jody was, Jody claims she was kidnapped, whereas the friends, I won't mention their names, you guys can find this. The friends say essentially that Jody tried to, that Jody was suicidal and she needed help. And that it's simultaneous with being suicidal.

She was essentially making advances towards the husband of the couple's home where they stayed. So the wife claims that Jody was being, sexually provocative with her husband. And this is the Hanna's, correct? The Hanna. Yeah, the Hannas. So that lasts for six weeks.

Jody claims that she's kidnapped, that she escapes. So she's very vulnerable. And she reaches out to Ruby for help. This is March 2021. She's feeling like she needs someone to be close to her. And she turns to Ruby. So in May of 2021, roughly, Kevin and Ruby visit Jody's home for the first time in southern Utah, in Cayenta,

the home that the infamous home we net with the safe room and the home that's now for sale. Beautiful, infamous home. Yeah. And so Kevin, they're visiting, and according to Kevin, there's all these peculiar happenings, that there's noises in the basement. He says plates are flying around the kitchen. he says that even he who is an engineer can't make sense of any of this. And Ruby was very concerned.

Ruby felt like she could help. So simultaneous with that incident, the bishop in that particular ward in southern Utah was visiting every night and, quote, he was casting out demons. He was trying to cast out demons from the home or Jody. I'm not quite clear what. where the demons were, but apparently there were demons involved and this bishop was trying to cast them out. Bishop Galbraith was his name.

Okay. So that's occurring in August of 2021. Now, around that time, Ruby suggests that Jody move north and come live with the Frankie family in their house. So, you know, Kevin's a little hesitant to agree to this offer. but Ruby really wants Jody to come north to their home and to stay with them and to be their guest so that Ruby can help Jody with whatever these mental health issues seem to be. I don't think they're calling them mental health issues, by the way. That would be my interpretation.

Right. But there's a couple of interesting things going on here. Number one, I think Jody probably has, potentially has deeper mental health issues than we're issues than we're aware of if the suicidal part is accurate, if Jody is in fact suicidal, which seems possible or reasonable. And the other thing I think that's going on is that Jody probably sees Ruby as a bit of a mark. I think that by Ruby becoming so invested in Jody, I think Jody sees Ruby as being particularly

vulnerable at this time in her life, especially with this offer to head north and to live with them. And so I think since 2019, when Jody asserts that she wants world domination and she meets Ruby, I think she's been developing this relationship. But here with these mental health crises and this opportunity to come live with Ruby, I think Jody probably senses this is a really unique moment. So let's listen to Kevin describe. When Jody moves in, Kevin gives us a description of what starts happening in the home. So this is roughly 2330-ish. The moment she showed up in my house, just the weirdest crap started happening. Lies turning on and off. It's sounds of people walking in walls, like sounds like footprints going up walls and across the ceiling and stuff flowing.

and it was just it was weird and I hated it and I became the resident exorcist that was the title I came up with but it was my job like go and give her blessings whenever she started to like go into a trance and go into possession which started to be a lot and Ruby would go up and check on her. It started like every four hours at night, and then it moved every two hours a night, and it moved every hour at night. And then at some point, Ruby said,

you know what, I'm just going to stop. If I need you, I'll come down and take me. Like, that's kind of weird, but okay. And that was that. They started sleeping in the same bed. Probably September, where she believed that she was going to heaven and seeing God.

and she would get together with Pam Botcher. Ruby, Pam and Jody would get together and do these interventions. That's what they call them. So they'd just go up and lock themselves in a room for four or five hours. And then they'd come out and they'd all just be on cloud nine. And Ruby would share with me like she had this amazing vision. And I wrote it and recorded it all down. and we have a work to do from God and you're part of it and the bishop's part of it and we're all part of bringing all this stuff to the world.

So it was, and it continued like that until I wanted to move on with life. Dragging my heels, so that was around October. Jody flipped out because during one intervention, Chad was in the... So I presume that part of what he's talking about are these so-called pen papers, that they would go, they would literally lock themselves in a room and go into these trans-states and have visions and perform interventions. I assume that had something to do with maybe exercising demons. I'm trying to imagine what happened.

I wish I could have been a fly on the wall during some of those four-hour meetings because those must have been pretty wild. You and me both. Not everyone would wish that, but I think we'd be. Yeah. I think we would want to. As painful as it might be, it would be fascinating. So let's think about what Kevin just said.

So there's a couple of things happening. One is you have these ecstatic religious experiences, which are drawing Ruby and Jody closer together. And apparently Pam Botcher. So we haven't heard much about Pam Botcher, but Pam Bopcher's all over this, by the way. Oh, we've heard a lot about Pam. I can tell you all about her.

It's where the other two children were found. She's on body cam footage. Ruby apologizes to Pam during her sentencing. Jesse Hildebrandt, Jody's niece stated that Pam has been Jody's best friend. Pam is the president of connections. And when Kevin filed for restitution from Jody's house, he claimed that he might not be able to get the funds

because they might be in Pam's name. And that is Pam. Go ahead. So Pam is involved in these four-hour meeting sessions, whatever you want to call them. But one thing that's happening here, perhaps the most important thing that's happening, is you're really solidifying the bomb

between Ruby and Jody during these moments. because they're spending a huge amount of time together. They're bonding around these ecstatic religious experiences. They're sharing and developing and strengthening and amplifying their belief systems, which are now starting to merge. So this becomes like Daybell again in the sense that Lori and Chad, I don't know if they're having these kinds of ecstatic experiences, but they're doing something similar and their belief systems are starting to merge.

A lot of people have talked about the idea of like Folly Adu with, with the day, but with Lori and Chad Daybell. You know, oddly, I think you have maybe a similar dynamic here. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say Folly, I'll do, but you have something similar, that you're really creating this intense bond here. And a point not to be missed is, and it's easily overlooked this, is Kevin is being evicted from the bedroom,

and Jody's moving in. So Kevin says that Ruby would go check on Jody every four hours and every two hours and every hour and eventually they end up sleeping together. And that's a really important point because now you have a situation where Kevin is essentially being evicted from their marriage and their bedroom. And Jody has literally replaced him. Jody is literally in the bed with Ruby, Frankie. And Kevin is now apparently, poor guy, he's sleeping.

on the couch and he doesn't have this family anymore that he really cherishes. And that to me, this moment to me is so critical here because I do believe now looking at this evidence that Jody really targeted Ruby for her platform and for world domination to spread her word to make a ton of money, whatever it is she was after. She goes to this mental health crisis. She uses that as a means of. drawing Ruby in, she gets into these ecstatic religious experiences, and it works. She draws her in, she gets her committed to the cause, to connections, and she goes so far as to affect this

transformation where Kevin Frankie is now no longer in the bed with his wife and he's been, he's sleeping on the couch or whatever, wherever in the attic, I don't know, but he's, he's now in a very real sense being tossed out of his own family. And Jody is, Jody has taken his place. And this is right around when Jody says at the Eternal Core conference, this conference

with sort of like-minded therapist bringing God back into therapy, preppers, and she states, I want to take this entire message to this world, to the world. And here is Ruby Frankie. And so it's, it's not hard to imagine that

Jody has set this whole plot in motion. I don't know how premeditated this is, but I believe some of it is. I think a lot of it is. But that doesn't let Ruby off the hook in the sense that Ruby is a willing participant, that Ruby is keeping these pen papers,

that Ruby believes their scripture. Ruby is playing a really important role in all of this. She's not a side player. Ruby is not someone who, if you listen to just the same, sentencing and how supposedly remorseful she is, if you believe Ruby, she's saying that I met Jody, she influenced, she did everything, I was the victim, and now I'm, you know, separated from her, everything's back to normal, I'm good, I just have to figure it out.

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Get started today. And then Ruby ended that separation. Jody went home this like the second week of January. But by that time, like Ruby, Pam and Jody were completely determined to do this work. I thought it was crazy. Like I thought it was just like Ruby, you have a reputation. you have a multi-million dollar business, you have a brand, and you are just giving it away. She wanted to legally work with Jody's attorney to basically give Jody a passenger and become an employee of connections.

So basically the contract was Ruby gives Jody everything and Ruby gets nothing in return. Our manager, our YouTube manager at the time was like, red flags, red flags. Like, I don't know how to tell you, she is scamming you. Ruby fired him. And I was like, I believe our manager, I think he's right. And Ruby started threatening me with another separation. And just like, this isn't about money. This is about doing God's work.

So we continued in that dynamic for the next six or seven months until she went on a trip with Jody and Pam down to Arizona. And I think they, like, when I read her journal, she went into Mexico or something and bought drugs or something like prescription drugs for the emergency kits. And when she came back from that trip, before she even brought the bags into the house, she asked me to leave. And that was July 20, 2022. My interactions with Jody at that point became one of Jody. I was still in the men's groups, but the dynamic change. Instead of being like one of the top people that helped run groups and help support all of a sudden, I was, I felt like I got knocked.

And Jody was just weak in the men's groups. And the other men, uh, other men just do whatever Joey does. If Jody piles on somebody, they all pile on. If Jody praises somebody, they all praise. And so it really felt like a, it felt like a, like a pack of dogs. And Jody was the alpha man. She was like a pack of dogs. Yeah.

And Jody was the alpha. That was very descriptive. Kevin. A couple of thoughts there. Number one, if you want to dig up motive here, it's pretty apparent. So Jody has the audacity to convince Ruby to essentially hand over eight passengers, eight passengers to her completely. So Jody's lawyer goes to Kevin and says, look, Ruby wants you to give eight passengers

or Ruby wants to give eight passengers completely to Joe. Jody, everything, all the money, the brand, all the trademark, all of it. In exchange for Ruby becoming an employee because they want to do, because they want to do God's work. Now, think about, think about the fact that this is a channel with millions of subscribers making millions of dollars, and this has gotten to the point. So at this point, by the way, as Kevin reminds us, he's gotten kicked out of the house. They go to Mexico, they come back, they're doing peyote or whatever they're doing. It sounds like they're doing some hallucinogenic stuff.

I know, they get some drugs. Right. They get some drugs. Because, of course. Side note. Because in their faith, you know, doing drugs is perfectly fine, right? So, but they go there, they do drugs. I guess it's okay when you're a profit.

You can do drugs. But so. He calls them prescription, but prescription drugs. Go to Mexico. come back. So they come back from Mexico. Kevin is now kicked. So Kevin has moved from the couch to apparently the street

because he's now kicked out of the house and homeless. And now Ruby is telling him if you want anything to do with me, you better hand over. We need to hand over a passengers to Jody because we're doing God's work and that's what she wants. And by the way, when you

participate in connections, Jody's the alpha male and she leads a pack of dogs. And if you try to object or dissent or question her or challenge her in any way, this pack of dogs is going to attack you. So if you want to remain in connections, please do not challenge the alpha male.

So here you have, so we're seeing this process unfold. It begins with Jody having a mental health crisis and being suicidal and vulnerable and drawing Ruby in to her web and then subtly and slowly exerting complete control, maybe not complete because Ruby's a willing participant, but essentially exerting enough control to have Ruby hand over the keys to her kingdom and expect Kevin to go along with it. So now you're at a point. So this begins in March of 2020. now we're into, what did he say?

We're into early 2022. Now this transition is complete. Jody's in control of everything of Ruby, to a lesser degree, Kevin. And Kevin is not only separated, but he's not living in the home. And he's obviously feeling somewhat despondent, understandably. but let's continue looking at a little, let's continue this process. Let's go to, and again, my, my,

my timestamps are going to be a little off from yours, but let's say roughly 3630. Torture and hell it was to live an entire, it was more than a month, really, in complete isolation, believing that I was like evil, I mean, manipulative and lying and selfish, and that I had abandoned my family and that I was more interested in my selfishness.

So we missed a little bit of the beginning, but the important point here is that Kevin talks about his, he says, quote, complete isolation. And that he's been called evil and manipulative and a liar and all these elements that because he's not going along with the program. And so this is important, by the way, because if you want to look at how people get indoctrinated or brainwashed or persuade whatever persuaded one of the key steps is isolation so one of the first things you

want to do to really influence someone's thinking is to isolate them remove them from any social networks that can influence them or they can pull them back to some state of normality and so Kevin is describing here and by the way Jody does this this is exactly what she does with Ruby. So she isolates, that's the first thing she does with Ruby is she goes up to visit, well, she has this mental health crisis. She reads out to Ruby. She starts having these, I don't know what to call them, these religious, ecstatic

religious experiences for four or five hours at a time. Trances, I don't know. France is. She visions, whatever these are. She gets closer to Ruby and pushes Kevin out. So now she's isolated Ruby. She's pushed Ruby's family or social network away, specifically Kevin, so that he can't really intervene. So isolation is one of the first and maybe the most important steps in terms of really developing, really indoctrinating or maybe even brainwashing someone.

Okay. Isolation first. There is a, there's a book called Brainwashing, The Science of Thought Control by Kathleen Taylor. Catherine Taylor used to be a neuroscience at cognitive neuroscience at the University of Oxford. So she's quite well versed in this field. And she wrote kind of a book for lay people that's excellent. And she talks about isolation. She's going to talk about, she talks about some of these steps as well, not all of them.

Some of these are steps I've added in. But it starts with isolation. So that's, Kevin is now detailing that. So let's go to another step in this process. This is going to be roughly 3830. First, a couple of years. Shortly before we made contact with you. Or you made contact with us.

So for that whole month, my life was literally, wake up, exercise, go to work, pretend everything's okay. come home to connections like workbooks and read scriptures and try to strip selfishness out of my life. Like go to bed, wake up, repeat every day. Boom, boom, boom, boom. I mean, I was so upside down. And my plan was in six months I get to reach back out to Jody again and she'll let me back in a group and then I can prove. Yeah, so this is another step. Again, you know, Kevin is giving us classic textbooks ways to indoctrinate people.

So what does he say? He says that he says that he has to read Connections workbooks and Connections scripture, and he has to read it every day repetitively. So it's like Groundhog Day in Connections. If there's anything, if there's anything worse than Groundhog's Day, Connection style. It's, yeah, it's Groundhog. It's like the movie Groundhog Day with Bill Murray meets connections. Like, you know, it's unthinkably bad.

But anyway, that's, that's Kevin Frankie's life. He's getting up every day. He's reading connection stuff. He's working out. He's coming home. He's reading connection stuff. He's reading connection scripture. He's basically trying to get back and join his good graces.

And as he says at the end, in order to prove himself. So this is another important step in indoctrination, and that is repetitive messaging. You isolate someone. And so the other thing that's an element here is threat. There's a lot of threat, that if he doesn't follow these steps, he's going to lose his family. There's fear. If he doesn't follow these steps, he's going to lose his family. He's afraid.

He's threatened. You have isolation, repetitive messaging. You have threat. You have fear. anxiety. These are all really critical components in terms of indoctrination. These, by the way, are components that you see in prisoners of war. So in a lot of war situations like Vietnam or the Korean War, these were techniques that the enemy used to try to change the beliefs of American soldiers. They isolated them from other soldiers. They would play repetitive messages

every day over a loudspeaker about how America was evil and all this kind of stuff, it was all an attempt to change their beliefs, to get them to side with the enemy. They would do this under a lot of duress because they weren't sleeping, they weren't eating. They felt powerless. So there was fear, there was stress, there was threat, the threat of their lives was always at hand.

You have all these elements in play, and Kevin is laying him out for us. He's showing us Jody's playbook. He is. This interview is fascinating. Yeah. And also, by the way, this idea about calling him evil and manipulative in line, all that's a projection.

All of that is gaslighting in the sense that those are elements that Jody probably feels that she has in herself, but she would never acknowledge that. So what Jody does is instead of, acknowledging those elements of herself that are probably negative. She's projecting them on Kevin. She's telling her clients, you're evil, you're manipulative, you're a liar, when in fact those really apply to herself.

So that's another element in her playbook. Isolation, repetitive messaging, projection of negative qualities, threat, stress, anxiety. And there's another element, which we haven't talked about as much, but I'm trying to think. While you think, I just have to say we have nearly 7,000 people on this live, it's incredible. Thank you everyone for sharing this with your friends.

And again, thank you for your likes and for subscribing and being part of our original 144,000 subs. Jody thought she could get this to the world. We're just trying for the 144. So, thank you. Yeah.

The other element, which isn't necessarily as much a part of indoctrination, but there's an element of dehumanization going on. In the sense that in order to pull this off, Jody really has to objectify Ruby and Kevin both. She has to really kind of dehumanize them and see them. This is what she does with the children, by the way. She has to see them as objects that serve a purpose and not as human beings. And the dehumanization you also see with the children. She sees the children as objects, their means to an end.

That if you see children as possessed by demons or if you see a human being is possessed by demons, you're essentially dehumanizing them. So that is the other element that's going on here. That's not necessarily as much a part of indoctrination. But it goes with these, oftentimes, you know, the POWs in war camps are clearly being dehumanized. And so I think you have, the victims are being dehumanized. So you have that element in this process as well. And it shows up all over this case.

It shows up all over Daybell too. Whenever you have zombies and demons involved, you're dehumanizing. When that's your answer to why somebody acting a certain way. Right, exactly. And so, and speaking of that, let's go to roughly, again, I'm translating the time codes here, 39.30-ish. I think. We just want to, yeah.

The only questions I would have and just going back, you said that she was having like these visions. Like, what's, did we ever privy enough to understand or be told what those visions were? A couple of them. What was Tuesday?

Should you tell you about? So, like, one of them, she would, was walking along the beach with Jesus. And Jesus just challenged her to go to walk on the water and it was a whole lesson on walking on the water. Another, she would walk with Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother and she learned about, she had a pet lion in heaven named Charles.

But it was like this massive lion and she got to ride the lion and learned who she was. There was another one. there was a lot of satanic ones. When she would go into possession mode, she would talk in like different voices. It was really creepy. But the voices would say she's ours. We're not letting go. She is Satan's bride.

She's mine. I'm going to marry her. I have to let Kevin know that I will never forget that name either. Charles, the lion. That will never leave my mind that the, that Jody's lion in heaven is named Charles. I even put it on the most important notes there on the thumbnail. The lion's name was Charles. Go ahead.

Is the lion, by the way, her spirit animal kind of sounds like it is. It's, it's her wannabe. It's her. The king. The king of the, you know, Prince Charles, king, I mean, everything. yeah, Charles the lion and I'm going to go ride Charles in heaven. Anyway, go ahead. This is a lot about Jody.

So this gets a little bit into the dehumanization element, I think, in terms of the most interesting part of what Kevin says there, not just the fact that she's walking on water with Jesus and she has this lion, this spirit lion who she rides named Charles. But the satanic visions, I think, are really. fascinating to me in the sense that it really shows me. So if we don't take her head or word, if we see Satan as a metaphor for her inner life, for her mental state, for her psyche, which I would, obviously, I'm a psychologist. But if Satan becomes an element of her psyche,

let's say an object in her psyche, then what that means to me is that she's extremely conflicted. You have this turmoil in Jody, I think, that she's giving us here, that there's turmoil between whatever God represents who are in good and whatever Satan represents. There's kind of that classic battle between good and evil, but it's really raging in Jody. And she shows, like, the fact that a lot of her visions are satanic suggests that she's trying to put a lid on some of those negative violent impulses, that the satanic part of her is a large part of her. And she doesn't really know how to contain it.

And so one way she deals with that is when that overflows and she can't contain it, when she can't contain it, that's when she becomes violent. That's when she acts out towards the children. That's when she dehumanizes. Oh, you're giving me an aha moment. And so what's important there, I think that's, Again, Kevin is really helping us understand Jody, but this idea of being Satan's bride is fascinating.

She's not just a conduit of Satan. She's Satan's bride. Think about that. That's more than a conduit of Satan. This is something that is deeply ingrained in Jody's psyche. Okay. Let's call it this negative or violent or aggressive impulse. These impulses are really, really deep.

and Jody. And she doesn't know how to contain them. She doesn't know how to deal with them. And I think a lot of it, by the way, a lot of her desire to develop a cold is to try to tame those instincts. If she can get other people to follow her and to believe some of this stuff, then she can normalize it. She can bring it under control to some degree,

not fully. I'm trying to do what I do best and dumb down what you just told us. Okay. But her cult is normalizing her darkness. Yes, to some degree. Most cults, I would argue that while there's some benign cults, most cults are a function of leaders who are toxic and malevent and have these negative impulse.

There is some desire to harm other people. And Jody's no exception to that rule. Wow. Okay. Mic drop. Go on. 42. Let's try.

Let's move on to 42 roughly. Again, our time codes are a little off, but by my calculations, 42 minutes. This is going to speak to Jody's mental health. Person would just be this X for the connection. So it's like this wizard of last thing going on. She never showed her face. She always covered herself. Yeah.

Like even in the hottest, the summer she would wear. She would smell so bad. Yeah. She never bathed. But she was trying to hide her arms and stuff because apparently Ruby told me they were just like mutilated.

So the other thing I think it's important for them to know is she smelled, she covered herself and it was like the Wizard of Oz. Kevin shares with us that Jody never showed her face, that she often wore hoodies in the summertime. and that she never bathed. So she smelled, apparently she smelled horrendously. And her arms were mutilated, suggesting that she's a cutter.

She would cut her arms. All of that, I think, is really fascinating for a number of reasons. Number one, so this particular moment with Kevin, I think, speaks more to mental health issues in terms of not showing her face would speak to me to shame. Shame is often associated with the face. with showing ourselves, with exposing ourselves in some way. And Jody doesn't want to be exposed. She's covering, she's literally afraid to show her face.

You know, the whole idea of saving face, that's about shame. And here you have a literal manifestation of Jody not, you know, being afraid of showing her face and covering up her face all the time. That's fascinating. The other thing that it does, I think, for Jody is it develops a certain amount of mystery and authority that if you're leading a cult and you're not showing your face and you're wearing hoodies in the middle of 115 degrees in the summer, which we live in Vegas and I wouldn't do that no matter how much shame I had. So I think you've got some shame here

and you've got you've got this attempt also if you're not willing to kind of deal with that shame or show your face. I think you have one benefit of that is to create this aura of mystery and authority around herself. Like, oh, there's the cult leader that we never, we never see what she looks like. Who is she? She's larger than life, right? Yeah, kind of the Wizard of Oz analogy that you can't see her. You never see, you never see the Wizard of Oz because he's behind the curtain. So it's kind of that idea, too. So I think those two things often go together. The never bathing part, that's interesting to me. I mean, she lives in a home, she lives in the 10,000 square foot home. with, I don't know how many, she probably has, what, 10 bathrooms in there? I mean, it's not,

it's not from a lack of opportunity. I'll throw a truth bomb. I'll throw some tea. I've been in the home. Yes, you have. I've been in the home and I've seen her showers and there's probably like 10 shower heads per shower. They're probably some of the most grandiose, beautiful showers I've ever seen. So it is very interesting to think that she never showered. And yes, other people are referring to the lion to Oslon and the lion witch in the wardrobe. And I agree. Oslon would have loved these showers. The showering issue, you can't say obviously it's from a lack of opportunity. I mean, most normal people would, you know, would find that kind of home to be extraordinary and including ourselves. And, you know, that the, the,

opportunity to shower in a magnificent home like that would be amazing, but she doesn't do, she doesn't use the showers. And so that to me is interesting because usually when I see that, when somebody presents with those types of symptoms, I'm usually thinking depression. And again, I'm not diagnosing here, but I'm suggesting that that somebody that with Jody's kind of wealth and home like she lives in, that not bathing, probably has to do with mental health issues, and typically something like that would be related to depression,

which by the way, would go along with during her mental health crisis, according to the Hannah's, that she was highly suicidal, very suicidal, and that would be consistent with depression. So there may very well be a kind of a deep-seated depression here

that she's covering up. And that, by the way, that too would go along with shame. So I think that looking at this, that there very well could be a great deal of depression. And again, I think part of her acting out in the way she does is an attempt to avoid or skirt that depression. People are asking me when I saw the home, by the way, there are questions coming.

I'll say in the past couple of months. And I've been in the panic room and in the safe room. And I have been in a lot of the area. I don't think I'm quite ready to share everything, but I have been in. inside the home. Maybe you spilled that T too quickly. Maybe. So I'm not going to say anything else.

But it was, I'll just say this, the feeling I had, it is, first off, it's, it's a very beautiful home and it is very chilling to be inside that home and to think about what took place there. And so as I saw all of the evidence drop, yes, last night and today, and I was going through everything to think to have been in there overall. It's been heartbreaking. That's probably why I let this tea drop a little bit because it makes it all the more real. One of the most beautiful homes I've ever seen and hell happened there.

Children were tortured there. Right. Classic case of don't judge a book by its cover, right? You don't know what goes on behind the walls of even the most beautiful homes. We make assumptions that people that live in those types of homes or have more opportunities and they're better off and maybe better mental health and none of that is necessarily true. Yeah. I'll tell you a couple things.

Here's some things you don't know about the home. She had an escape. She had an escape door outside of her walk-in closet so that if something happened, they could escape through the ceiling onto the roof and get out. There were a lot of escape routes and there were no, video cameras and no security systems to kind of interesting things. There you go. So that would suggest paranoia.

Paranoia and a lot of storage for prepping, like just massive empty storage rooms, cement. I would say half the square footage was cement storage rooms that were just very large with a ton of outlets. There you go. Go ahead. So the final piece of that description that Kevin just provided is that her arms are mutilated. And usually cutting can be at a function of depression as well, by the way.

So a lot of times cutting is done, performed to try to allay some sense of anxiety. Believe it or not, people often cut, especially teenagers, because they're feeling anxious. and it's a way to cope with that anxiety. That sounds counterintuitive. But I think in the case of Jody, that it could be related to her depression. And it could suggest that there is some anxiety there as well. There could be a lot of, or maybe some, I don't know,

some fear, some anxiety, some paranoia, clearly. They could all play a role in her self-mutilating behaviors. Yeah, it makes sense. So the final piece of the, the Kevin audio interview I wanted to have you play was roughly, I'm taking a guess here, 435, let's try. I've ever had a dream where there's like a problem you're trying to solve, but you can't solve it and how frustrating you feel.

That's what my life felt like. And as I'm looking back and I'm realizing there was no solution. It was, there was, you either had Jody's approval or you didn't. I wasn't doing anything different than the other man than the group. But they got her approval, so they were praised and they were repenting and they were doing everything right. I, on the other hand, was manipulative and selfish and enabling, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. She became like the arbiter of truth, the arbiter of forgiveness, God's own mouthpiece. So that's the last piece of the Kevin interview, Kevin Frankie interview.

I wanted to use. And the reason that's important is he's telling us, he's giving us another piece of this indoctrination puzzle. And that is that Jody is shaping behavior by praising behaviors that she wants to reward and by punishing behaviors that she's trying to diminish. And so it's a very simple behavioral technique. But on top of all the other elements we talked about, the isolation, the repetitive messaging, the stress, the fear, the anxiety.

she's also implementing these really simple behavioral techniques, shaping behavior, it's operant conditioning. She's rewarding behavior that she wants. She's punishing behavior that she's trying to diminish. And that's occurring with Kevin. So Kevin feels very frustrated because he can't win. He's in these groups. He's trying his best, but he's not trying hard enough.

So he's not getting praise from Jody. Jody's praising everyone that just goes along with the program. And that's very common in cults. And the other part of that statement by Kevin, I think is important, is that he says that she became the arbiter of truth. She became God's mouthpiece. And so he's seeing this grandiosity that on top of all these other elements, you can't run a cult unless you have a certain level of grandiosity. And so Jody has that grandiosity. Jody sees herself as not only writing scripture and having these visions and trances,

but she literally sees herself as God's mouthpiece, according to Kevin. When she opens her mouth, it's the truth. And if you don't agree with her, then you're a demon or you can be condemned to hell. And so I think that's all of these. So Kevin really, he does a great job of laying out. He's not attempting to do this, by the way. This is my interpretation, but he does a great job of really laying out this process that Joe uses to indoctrinate the members of connections.

and she's not doing it with just Kevin, she's doing it with Ruby, she's probably doing some version of this with every single member of connections. And if you want to know how Jody can afford to live in a $5 million house, then you just have to look at this process. When you go through this process of indoctrination, you have a situation where Ruby Frankie is literally willing to hand over a multi-million dollar brand to Jody Hildebrandt with nothing in exchange for.

If she asked the members of connections to give her a million dollars, they probably will. They will do anything for her. And the reason, again, going back to the P.O.W. Camp analogy, when you indoctrinate soldiers over a period of years, they will almost do anything that the enemy asked them to do. And using that analogy, by the way, R and E, the victims, I don't know if we're going to stay with that. We're going to stay with R and E. R was so emaciated, right, that he looked like he had been a P-O-W. He looked like he had been in a concentration camp, and a lot of people made that analogy. Yeah, including Brian Enton last night when I was on News Nation.

So I think that's a, it's a valid analogy, and it explains the steps that Kevin just laid out for us. Kevin's intention wasn't, by the way, to lay out the steps of indoctrination and, into a cult, but he did. And so that's what he went through. And I believe that's probably when that's probably the process that almost all the members of connections went through. And all by the way for a cult leader who doesn't, apparently doesn't shower, she wears a lot of hoodies and she, her arms are mutilated. So I guess in spite of that, her members were willing to go to all ends of the earth to support her. Yeah, well, a lot of people also are bringing up wondering if she was abused as a child.

And yes, she wrote about that in her book. You are not enough. She's talked about it. And she's talked about it. Yeah. So just to confirm what people are bringing up. Yeah, she was molested as a child. And her father was a colonel in the Air Force who apparently was very strict and probably didn't praise her very much.

And she was always. She was bullied as a child and she was very socially isolated. And so again, yes, right? You see her repeating a lot of those elements into adulthood. She was also a beautiful singer. And at one point was a beauty queen and has shared that she had an eating disorder. That was Jody? It was Jody.

I probably never showed you that. Our Troublemaker Baker months ago found a newspaper article where she was a beauty queen. in a pageant and that she had a beautiful singing voice and she stated during the Eternal Core Conference or during her connection videos with Ruby that she had had an eating disorder. So those things we've learned. So let's shift gears a little bit and look at the pertinent question that's on the table now is how much time are they going to get? How much time are they going to serve?

And they were sentenced to consecutive. they were each convicted of four different counts of aggravated child abuse, convicted to between one to 15 years of consecutive sentences, meaning they don't run together, they run one after another. And based upon what the prosecutor said, it definitely appears that Ruby has positioned herself well to get a much lesser sentence than Jody.

I want to think about this issue of sentencing and risk. because I think that's what's relevant as we move forward. And so the question I always have to answer as a forensic psychologist is what's the risk of letting someone go on probation or parole? What's the risk that they're going to reoffend? What's the risk that Jody and or Ruby would get out and commit a similar crime? And I think to really look at this question, and I can't, by the way, I can't fully answer that because I haven't assessed either. of them. I haven't interviewed them. In order for me to really answer that question, I'd have to do hours of interviews and hours of testing. And I'd have to really kind of dig deep into their life

histories. And so I can't really answer that fully here. So I'm not going to really answer the question specific to them. I'm going to speculate more in terms of broad ideas. One of those ideas has to do with belief. In fact, I think maybe the central idea has to do with belief. And this is going to take us back to David. This is going to take us back to almost every case. Most of the cases we've covered. And that is belief. So we know essentially that Jody has the same belief system. In fact, can you play the, do you have the scripture? No. Does not want to play. Okay. Well, I will go find the YouTube video. And while I do that, I'll show you guys, nobody believe me that she was a bunch of beauty queen. So, and I haven't shown John this either.

So you guys can look at this while I pull up the YouTube video. John, tell him, here you go. That's Jody Hildebrand in a pageant in the newspaper. Okay. That was, was she, would that, would that have been? been high school years or maybe a little bit after that young adulthood? I think it was young adulthood and she was a singer. Okay. That was her talent. Yes.

Interesting. Yeah. So back to this. Here it is. Right there. I just read that. I just wet. I mean, the spirit was like, he just said, this is you.

Oh, I see it. That was in Luke, and I read in Mark the same kind of thing, you know, because the gospel, they wrote similarly. So he said, now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father, the son, like the father will betray the son. And the children shall rise up against their parents and shall cause them be put to death. That statement right there is what's going on with me.

The children will rise up against the parents and the parents will be put to death. And that's exactly what's going on with her, she says. Right. So there are three or four recordings in the documents where Jody essentially sits down with, I believe it's her attorney. I don't know who the person is that she's talking to. I'm guessing it might be her attorney, but I don't know. And anyway, what she spends four or five minutes on each one, quoting scriptures and playing the victim.

And I think this was a good example of that, of playing the victim, that the children, she's, clearly she didn't do anything wrong. This is all the children's fault. She started off by saying it was the children's fault. This, by the way, was in February. This is before her sentencing. So the question here, the question I want to ask is, Has she changed her beliefs?

Has she changed it all? And obviously with Jody, the answer is no, because she's making these kinds of, she's making these kinds of statements to, I don't know who, to someone in jail. And they're consistent with what she believed. They're consistent with what she currently believes. Nothing has changed for Jody.

I think that's pretty clear. Yes. And so because of that, by the way, if someone, I presumably, if a forensic psychologist were to assess her risk, and to see this type of behavior and to see her defiance and sentencing, to see the fact that she didn't make a statement, she didn't conduct an interview with probation for her pre-sentence investigation report. All of these elements would point to the fact that her risk is high

to reoffend and that at least at the moment it could change over time. If she's in, if she's in prison for 10 years, that of course could change. But at the moment, I think you'd have to say that I presume that you'd have to, someone would say that it appears that she would be still a pretty high risk and that very little has changed. And as long as her belief system is in place and she believes that children are demons and that the children were responsible for her current predicament and they're going to rise up and kill the parents, then obviously there's problems there. But let's let's look at, let's take a look at Ruby.

So Jody, you know, Jody doesn't seem to have budged too much. Let's take a look at Ruby. So Ruby made a comment about expressing remorse during her sentencing hearing, and that was released. Can you share that with us? Yeah, let me pull that up. Did you see that Jody had guilty today?

I did see that. Yes, is that a relief for you? Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's a big relief. It's a big relief. there would have been positive the other way too had she not pled guilty there's enough evidence that she would have been could have been convicted for life but um yeah that would have been messy it would been really messy and the kids would have so probably will i don't think she's going to give them her history but but i think she's going to give them her history but i think in the interview it's going to be apparent that she's mentally ill. And so that will affect how long someone, you know, because they're looking, how

how repentant are you, how much responsibility are you taking, how are you aware that what you've done is wrong and she's not, she's the only reason she because she didn't want to do life. She knew I would testify. The other thing is on my plea deal, when I come up for probation, the prosecuting attorney will often, if they think that you're a danger to society, will talk to the probationary board and or write them a letter saying, I

she needs to stay where she is. He's going to stay neutral and not write any letter when my probation comes up, which is a really... There you go. When I heard that, I thought, wow, she's very thoughtful about... She's very thoughtful about why she wanted to show remorse. Very clear. Well, there's a couple of elements to that. So that's a jail call that Ruby is taking with who's she talking to an attorney.

I don't know. I'm not quite sure. It doesn't matter. Don't ask me things I don't know. There's a couple of elements to that call that are really important. Number one, she recognizes that Jody is not repentant to use her term. And she recognizes, too, that in order to even qualify for probation, she needs the prosecuting attorney to write a letter to the parole board, which is going on right now. That process is going on

as we speak. A letter saying essentially that Ruby is remorseful or repentant and that she's a lower risk so that she should qualify for probation. So think about that for a minute. She's saying that she can play off of Jody's lack of remorse. If she expresses remorse herself, she will look good, she will look better in the eyes of the prosecutor, and she might even qualify for probation. She's not saying that she's remorseful. And this goes back to go see our show on the sent scene. I said that I felt like she was being very manipulative, and now we understand why.

You did. You said that. You said that. This is what you said. Now we understand. Now we understand her strategy. Her strategy was to look more remorseful because Jody was not being repentant. This was a strategy.

Her whole Oscar speech thing about I want to thank, you know, the detectives and I want to thank the people that arrested me and because now I see the light. Like she knew that. Two weeks before her sentencing hearing, she knew. that she would look better because Jody looks so poorly. And she knew the prosecutor would buy that. And here's the part that amazes me. It worked because the prosecutor came out on the steps of the courthouse afterwards

and said, wow, Ruby's so remorseful. Can you believe it? I think she should get the minimum. The prosecutor said this. I think she should get the minimum sentence, which would be four years. which is I've explained in prison, there's something called Good Time. Usually you can cut your sentence by 60%.

60% of four years would put her a little over two years. Ruby Frankie can walk out of prison in two years, which for those of you who haven't done groups with violent offenders or sex offenders like myself, I've done groups with offenders for many, many years. They call two years, the term they use in my groups is, they're serving whino time. Wino meaning the local drunk who ends up in an alley and he gets belligerent

with a police officer when the police officer tries to move him or arrest him. He will typically, depending on his history, he'll typically get placed in jail or prison for a year or two. And they call that whino time, meaning like two years for somebody who seriously abused a child would be comparable to the whino. and the hally that is no harm to anyone, by the way. Society just doesn't know what to do with the whino. But I think it's remarkable that she could pull that off.

This is what you said. The question was, did Ruby feel remorse? This is what you said back in that video. And thank you to our moderators, C.C. and Steph B and so many others that are sharing our playlist. We have 35 videos on this case now. you said that Jody did not make Ruby do this. Jody gave Ruby permission to do this.

Right. And now we're going to get into that. So let's take a look at Ruby's belief system. So we have Ruby on a jailhouse call essentially saying, I'm going to look really good next to Jody because Jody's not repentant. So whether I'm remorseful or not, I'm going to show remorse, and I'm going to thank everyone in the entire judicial system for helping me change my life because I'll look really good. And that's what she did.

That's a huge manipulation. Now we understand why she was doing that because she was strategizing that before in a jailhouse call. It was on her mind. She understood how to play that game. So, all right. Let's go to this is a Ruby. this is again this is in the document dump this is number 45 this would be the i don't know what you've called it children full of evil yep this is on our youtube channel i'll just play it straight from our

youtube channel since our video files aren't our friends tonight so i think i was prepared for this i do feel strong and feel calm and you know what they they may adults have a really hard time understanding that children can be full of evil and what that takes to fight it. You've seen what it takes to fight evil. It's not the person you're fighting. And it can look like something it's not. And you've been there, you know that. And so I don't know any adults who are going to see the truth. So I'm calm about this and I just pray that going to hang in there. Kay, you can pause it. She doesn't know any adults that are going to see the truth because adults don't think the children.

evil. Because adults are blinded by children who are evil. So, Herb faces just fool us every time. The important element of this particular jailhouse conversation is exactly what she says, that it's her belief that children are full of evil and the children are possessed by demons. And therefore, they're unlikely to, they're unlikely to change and adults won't understand that. I'm going to read something that reinforces this belief that shows that this belief is probably ingrained in Ruby Frankie. So also, as long as we're talking about this,

it's important to mention that we have talked to a few sources that have confirmed that before Ruby Frankie even met Jody Hilda Brandt, She had very strong opinions about parenting. She had very strict disciplinary methods that I can't confirm whether she saw children as evil before Jody. But it certainly appears there were elements of that. So as I talked about during the sentencing show, this belief that children are evil doesn't just come from Jody. It doesn't just show up because she meets Jody. It becomes amplified.

And again, the idea is that Jody gives Ruby permission to express what she really believes. And what she really believes is this. The children are evil. They're not to be trusted. They have to be disciplined harshly in order to get them to become compliant. This is a belief that Ruby Frankie has. This did not change when she gave her Academy Award speech. at sentencing, I'm going to read.

Thank you. It didn't. It didn't. Exactly. Exactly. And that, we'll get to this in a minute. But when you have an entrenched belief that children are evil, that means that more than likely, your risk to reoffend is going to be reasonably high unless you change that belief.

It's the belief that's driving her behavior. It's the belief that's driving Jody's behavior. So this is from, this is from. this is from her a journal entry these are on our you put them somewhere right the the the document dumb yeah all of her all of ruby's journal entries which is a whole other we're next hidden hour i think we're delving deep into ruby frankie we haven't done that yet but these are all of because there is a lot and we just can't cover it all tonight but this is we have all the journal entries on our patreon account patreon dot com and just for anyone that wants to join there with a

monthly membership. We appreciate your support so much. And thank you to those that have gifted membership tonight and all of your generosity tonight. Thank you. It doesn't go unnoticed. Go ahead, John. Yeah, this is from Ruby Frankie's own journal. So this is this, I read the journal, you know, it's interesting how she sees the world, how she disciplines children. This was the most interesting portion of the journal that I could find. And this, I think this really speaks to her perceptions of her worldview, children, how she sees children, all of it. Anyway, so when I say R, I'm referring to the victim, the teenage, the adolescent victim here, R stole water.

Not even barely, only 12. 12, yeah. So this whole thing, by the way, that I'm about to read is it's triggered by the fact that are apparently stole water. Now keep in mind that he's being he's being asked to do hard manual and physical labor in 110 degree heat in July. He steals some water because, you know, he's essentially completely dehydrated and suffering from heat stroke. But putting that aside, he's going to get disciplined for stealing water. This is how Ruby Frankie handles it. This is from a journal entry of hers. I don't have the page number in,

I believe she wrote this in July when, again, it was well in the hundreds, and he's doing manual labor in the middle of the day. So if he doesn't steal water, he probably, you know, suffers heat stroke, which could kill him anyway, but whatever. I mean, again, he's lucky to be alive, but thankfully he is. So here it is. Here's a journal entry. Quote, our stole water, he was angry and looked like he wanted to fist up. I put my hands on his shoulders, and I told him I love them. I told him he has no idea what he's doing, but I do. I can help him.

I told him, quote, give your demon friend a message for me. I will not rest. I will not stop. I will not leave. I will fight him until the day you die. I have the power of God, and he must obey. I beat Satan. I win.

Then I looked in Ar's eyes and with power and authority I commanded, quote, get out now, all in caps, quote, get out now, go. R immediately smiled, cried, slumped, Soughton. He said, Ar said, he's gone. He left. So if you want to understand Ruby's beliefs, this passage is all. you need to read. He steals water. She sees that his quote, stealing water in 110 degree heat is demonic. She tells the demon in him that she won't rest until the demon's gone and that she has the power of God and he must obey that she's essentially saying that R is Satan. She's going to win. And then she commands Satan to leave. And apparently Satan leaves. But obviously he doesn't leave

because she's arrested a month or a month and a half later for the, for the abusive behaviors that occurred. But my point is, these types of beliefs run deep. This type of belief, although it might be somewhat influenced by Jody, this type of belief does not disappear in six months. Yeah.

The pen papers, that we talked about earlier and all the visions, that doesn't just, you just don't change those beliefs overnight. And so if we're thinking about risk for Ruby and the possibility that the prosecutor, who apparently was snowed by her behavior, or I don't know, I don't know how far I want to go, but the prosecutor definitely played into her narrative,

that she was a victim of Jody's, Now she's not. She's fine. He bought that. I think it's important for the parole board to understand that these beliefs are entrenched. They're deep. We've talked about this a little bit before, but there's different theories of beliefs. In philosophy, there's something called docastic volunteerism, which is that we have control over our beliefs, that we form our beliefs because we look at the world, we look at evidence, and we revise our beliefs of evidence. suggest that our beliefs are wrong. There's another view called docastic involuntarism. That's a view that was originally espoused by the philosopher, the Scottish philosopher, David Hume. Hume believed that beliefs are essentially feelings. And that feelings are very hard.

When we believe and feel together at the same time, we have very little control over them. So Hume used to think of beliefs as kind of being like hunger. You can manage your hunger, but you can't stop it, you can't control it. And so beliefs are like feelings in the sense that they're like hunger. And my point is that if you see beliefs is strongly being related to feelings, and anybody who lives in this country now has to think that, I would guess.

Beliefs are very hard to change because they're rooted in our emotions. And our emotions are not rational necessarily. Our emotions are not tied to cognition. They're not tied to evidence. They're not, right? They're emotions, we lead with emotions, but we don't necessarily evaluate our emotions acts and evidence. And so my point is that I think that with Ruby Frankie, you have a set of beliefs that are really entrenched. They're going to be hard to change.

Even though she will tell you that she's changed them or she'll tell you what you want to hear, it's unlikely she has. And so if you look at how beliefs develop, which are typically through the family, so through beliefs develop, So through beliefs develop in our family cultures, and that which, by the way, is another reason why beliefs are so emotional because beliefs in many ways become survival in the sense that if you don't believe what your family believes, you're risking being ostracized from your family,

which is your very survival. You're risk being kicked out of your family. So if your family is highly religious and you don't subscribe to those beliefs, you could be ostracized from your family. That's a very emotional issue. So when beliefs begin in our families and they're very emotional, and even if those beliefs are not true, we don't have a lot of incentive to question them. We don't have a lot of incentive to revise those beliefs.

So we develop these beliefs which are very emotional. So in the case of Ruby, her family culture was extremely religious. She develops the set of very religious beliefs and ideas about the world. Strict discipline for children is part of those beliefs, I'm sure. and then she goes out into the world. As she gets older, she goes out in the world, she finds peer networks and social networks that essentially reinforce those same beliefs.

So she never challenges those beliefs. There's no real openness to revision of these beliefs because she's not being rewarded for that. So there's a lot of closed-mindedness going on with her. And my guess is that there's a lot of confirmation bias here too in the sense that not only is, is she finding groups that agree with her and confirm her beliefs, but everywhere she looks in the world,

she's finding evidence to confirm her beliefs and not evidence that goes against them, not evidence to disconfirm them. So the problem, what I'm trying to say in short, is that I'm very suspicious of the fact that even though Ruby, Frankie gave a very remorseful statement and thanked everyone in court, I'm very suspicious of the fact that her beliefs, she would argue, I guess, that her beliefs have changed.

I would argue that they probably haven't. I'm suspicious of the fact that she's claiming her beliefs are changed. I don't think they've changed. I think that's going to take a lot of work that's probably going to take years to affect. As someone who's worked, again, someone who's worked with offenders and a lot of their beliefs. So a lot of sex offenders and violent offenders have the belief that they're entitled to harm people. That seems like a simple belief. But it takes years.

It takes years and years to overcome that belief. And until an offender can start to believe that they're entitled to harm other human beings, they're going to be a risk to the community. Yes. A couple of things to point out. Someone said in her journals, she didn't say to Russell, excuse me, she didn't say to R until the day I die. She said until the day you die.

parents usually die before their children. This is very frightening too. It does show something very frightening. And the other thing I want to point out too, because I've been going through all of the evidence, the journal entries, she kept daily journals about how evil the victims were, how evil the children were in a lot of the time, Jody was out of town. That's one thing we learned through reading her journals. The Jody would leave for days to go look at property in Arizona where they were going to buy a compound, to go and visit with LDS leadership in Salt Lake City or other places. Ruby was doing this completely alone without Ruby in the house.

Without, excuse me, without Jody in the house. Right. And it gets back to the pen papers that we began with tonight. the pen papers being all of these entries that Ruby is making into some special, not the journals we have, but some journals that haven't been discovered yet or found, that she believes those are scriptures, that Ruby's a willing participant in making those entries, and she's deeply invested in them.

She believes in them. And a lot of those beliefs are similar to the belief that children are evil and the children are demonic and need to be punished harshly. I'm slowing down chat per request of people. We do have one more, John, I want to remind you. I do have one more Jody Hildebrand sound by if you want it. But I'm going to put this on mute and slow down chat for a second. Yeah, I think we're okay on that.

I think, yeah. Well, okay, if it shows how aligned they are. If you want to play that Jody message, I think it's interesting. You can play the whole thing. It's short. I think it shows how aligned Ruby and Jody are on their beliefs. So yeah, why don't you go ahead and play it? Nobody wants the truth. Nobody wants the truth. Nobody wants the truth because these kids,

you know, I told Doug, I woke up, the spirit told me it's all the devil. I mean, you've seen him. I mean, I've known you, what, for five years, you've watched him, come at me, come at me, come at me, come at me, come at me. And you're exactly right, because he knows, I know what he's doing. and he uses these kids and he uses all of us as the adults, the parents that don't hold the kids accountable.

So now it's abusive to make a kid sleep on the floor that's abusive or it's abusive. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. You can't even raise your kids anymore. So Jody doesn't say that children are full of evil,

but she says it's all in the devil. Correct. And having a child sleep on the floor, by the way, Jody is quite different than throwing a child into a cactus. Or making them sleep outside without betting. Or not feeding a child or putting duct tape on their ankles until the duct tape cuts to the bone. That's not quite the same as having a child sleep on the floor. Or starving them. Right.

Right. All of the above. There's so many. So it's not it's not analogous Jody, sorry. So they do. Go ahead. They do, they clearly have the same belief about children. They see children is full of evil. They see children as demonic.

That's what they share in common. My guess is they probably shared those beliefs. Ruby probably had some version of that belief before Jody. Jody just amplified it and enabled that belief. So again, if you're looking at sentencing here, and you're going to give Ruby the minimum sentence and you're going to give Jody something closer to the maximum sentence,

I don't see how that decision can be made in a rational way. Especially after looking at this evidence and looking at the document dump, I have really serious questions about whether Ruby is changed at all. And also, also just because she gets in the court and is remorseful doesn't mean that she wasn't an equal or nearly an equal participant in a lot of these behaviors and a lot of this cruelty and a lot

of neglect, a lot of the issues that were going on with the children. She's just lucky that the children survived. I know. They were close to not surviving. And if they had bought that property in Arizona. and they had left, I don't think they would have ever made it. It's heartbreaking to see those photos. And we're choosing not to share the photos.

If anybody wants to see some of the photos, trigger warning, you can go. It's also on our channel. Brian Enten and I went live on Banfield last night on News Nation, and I have that clip. Also on our YouTube channel and we show the photos there. Yeah, we don't want to show them tonight, though. No. very hard to look at and I don't, you know. So, and thinking about this issue also, you know, there's psychologists talk about something

called naive, naive realism. And naive realism is, it means that most of us have this perception that our view of the world is the correct one. And we believe that because we don't necessarily expend the effort or take the time to challenge our beliefs or to learn new information or right. or to get outside of our social networks. And so most of us look at the world and naively we think that our perception of the world

is the most accurate one. Psychologists sometimes call this Dunning Kruger, the Dunning Kruger effect, which is similar. Dunning Krueger means that we think we're experts on our view of the world because we essentially don't know other views of the world and we don't challenge those views

and we don't take the time if we're learning about a particular subject, we don't take the time necessarily to learn as much as we can about that subject. So we think that if we get on, if we do a Google search and learn a few things, that we know everything there is to know about whatever that subject is. And typically we don't. So the reason I bring up naive realism is because I, you know, I'm going to end with a quote here from the Bhagavad Gita,

which is a well-known Hindu text scripture from 500 BC, well before Christianity. And I chose this because I'm not even sure. When I think about like Jody Hildebrand and Ruby Frankie, I'm not even sure they know what Hinduism is. I'm not even sure they know what Buddhism is, right? Like this idea of naive realism suggests that they're so rooted in this narrow reductive view of the world

and specifically Christianity that they can't see outside of that. And so they always, the reason why you have this view of children as evil and demonic is because you're caught in this naive realism. You're caught in this worldview that you can't escape. And so I'm ending with this quote because it's a Hindu quote from a very famous Hindu book. I read this book years ago, but it's not been recently. It's a fascinating book, by the way. It has a lot of wisdom.

But it's completely pertinent to the questions we're asking tonight, the quote, and it's completely pertinent to this issue of risk and belief. And so the quote is from the Bhagavagiri The quote is, man is made by his belief as he believes so he is. And if I substitute Jody and Ruby for man, Jody and Ruby are made by their beliefs as they believe so they are.

I think they believe the same things. I think that means that the risks are still significant. I hope that the parole board sitters, all the evidence when they make their decision and they're not swayed by one moment, one 10-minute speech in a courtroom that was clearly scripted, staged, rehearsed, strategized, right?

I don't know. You know, my job, as I say in court, my job is not to determine punishment. My job, punishment to do with the past. Most of my job as a forensic psychologist is to try to predict. the future is to try to predict reoffence in the future. And so I don't know, I don't, I can't say that I know what a fair sentence would be. I'll leave that to our viewers and I'll leave it to the,

to the parole board. But I do believe that the minimum, if there's going to be a huge disparity in sentences, I don't think that's going to be fair. But that's just my opinion. Thank you, babe. John and I are going to continue this conversation next week, unless there's some massive breaking news. But next week is the last week, we will be doing a hidden hour that isn't Dave Bell related while the daybell, Chad Daybell trial is going. So leave your questions in the comments. And John and I will be reading them all and we will be addressing so much more because this document dump is endless. And what we have to say is is endless. Dave, thank you so much. Thank you to these incredible audience we've had tonight. We have nearly 8,000 people watching

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