Hidden True Crime - Ruby Franke's Youngest Child Breaks Her Silence

Episode Date: February 28, 2025

About Hidden True Crime: Lauren Matthias, a former television reporter, and her husband Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Sources: https://youtu.be/jgVxeKJUuj4?si=Teipr0Pe9dsgi90U https://youtu.be/6jSdPwv63pc?si=VLW3tJnCrKPSnRhk https://youtu.be/OAuYQL401kU?si=QUJ5fXVkKj70Yk4t https://youtu.be/mawmDCW8ifM?si=UYeS5cFRFiRz3szw https://youtu.be/slYw6iJyefk?si=FEFuDS5iUzMy7sX0 https://youtu.be/mawmDCW8ifM?si=aqAQdVoJP2b5fa1d https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SE0mCku86Gs&t=11s Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Frankie household, and we have heard from Ruby's husband Kevin, and there's some Chad here and there as well. However, what everyone has been waiting for is the new series covering the family's experience, which drops this week on Hulu. And to promote the series, Kevin, Frankie, and Chad have been giving interviews where they shed more light on this heartbreaking story. They also answer the question that's been on everyone's minds since the story broke. How are the children doing now? Just days ago, Kevin stood before Utah lawmakers to promote a bill which will enact provisions related to minors involved in entertainment, including family vlogging like their old eight passengers YouTube channel. And in these meetings, Kevin shares heroin letters from some of

his children. And despite everything else they've been through, we actually hear from E herself. And I referred to her as E. That is what she is labeled in the charging documents. That is who was rescued from Jody Hilda Brent's house as a 10-year-old. And we hear from E herself about the damage family vlogging has caused in her life. On Monday, Good Morning America aired an interview with Kevin and Chad Frankie, where they candidly spoke about the aftermath of what happened to their family after Jody Hildebrandt entered their lives. And even though we know through Sherry Frankie's book that Ruby has always been stern, to say the least, I would actually say borderline abusive, depending on how you look at it, it's undeniable that things

took a drastic turn for the worst once Jody entered the pitcher. Ruby might have been in abusive mother, but when Jody entered the pitcher, their family was never the same again. Kevin explained that Jody was originally hired to help them with parenting their children. I think specifically Chad. But the focus gradually shifted towards Ruby's and Kevin's marriage. Her influence on the family became all-encompassing. Even Chad said that he started to see Jody as a godlike figure. She took control of something that was very, very important to me.

my marriage, my family, and she used those like a carrot on a stick. Looking back, I treated her as a god and I trusted her so much. To this day, people still cannot wrap their heads around Kevin leaving his children in Jody and Ruby's care. However, in another interview with People magazine, Kevin explains that he thought he was taking the advice of a licensed mental health counselor, as well as a person that he trusted and loved most in the world, his wife, Ruby. And even though he did voice his opposition toward some of Jody's techniques in the beginning,

Ruby and Jody would team up against him and tell Kevin that he wasn't living in truth. And by enabling his children, he was in distortion. He was made to believe that he was the problem, and the problem alone. Kevin also explained that it wasn't something that happened overnight either, and that Jody actually spent five years getting her hooks in. She indoctrinated him to believe that he needed to be separated

from the family in order to heal and that he was dangerous and incapable of making decisions for himself. Jody and Ruby have a close relationship and Jody saw the need for me to get help. And frankly, I agree. The space has been exactly what I need to face to face. my own addictions and receive the support and help that I've needed. And so this space has been very, very good for me. In the people interview, Chad Frankie, the oldest son in the family, explains how he too was kicked out of the house and forced to live in isolation at just 17 years old. He was made to ride his bike to school because Jody wanted him to live a physically and

mentally straining life in order to repent and change. This was a common theme in Jody's philosophy, her authoritarian philosophy that pain and discomfort would expel evil and make people stronger. We also know that this form of treatment was enacted on the youngest Frankie children, E and R again, as they are named in the charging documents. And this was enacted in the worst ways possible on E and R. It wasn't until 12-year-old R was able to escape Jody's House of Horror to save himself and his little sister from the abuse, that that is when the world, too, learned about the abuse and it finally came to an end. R and E were completely isolated from their dad. During Kevin's healing journey, separated from his family, Kevin would

only hear from Ruby about logistical things, but he was never given an update on how his children, two youngest children were doing in Ruby and Jody's care. Kevin also discussed how the choice to put their entire lives online through their vlog and YouTube channel really helped to fan the flames of the story once everything started coming out. And we got a little taste of what is to come in the long-awaited Hulu series, including raw footage, never before seen footage from the family's YouTube channel. Family vlogs are usually curated to seem as wholesome and as happy as possible. And that certainly was what Ruby tried to put out into the world. But Kevin and Chad explained that it takes a lot of yelling and a lot of editing to get that final, perfect, curated

product. Be excited to tell them where your name came from, even if you have to fake it. Fake being happy. Okay? In Kevin's words, quote, the making of the sausage is ugly, end quote. We know, too, that Sherry Frankie has been very vocal about her opposition to family vlogging and the harm in putting children's most intimate moments and milestones online for the world to see. Kevin has joined her in this fight to protect child actors and influencers by advancing Utah House Bill 322. The bill states that parents should be required to set the money their children make through acting or making content on social media aside in a trust for the child. It also creates a path for children to get their content removed when they're adults. If they choose, they no longer want it online.

The bill was sponsored by Representative Doug Owens, who said that, why, While it does not outright ban family vlogging, these initial steps will benefit children whose families make a lot of money through their content. We're proposing with this legislation is two basic concepts. One is child performers ought to be paid like the traditional actors. There ought to be some money when they reach adulthood if their parents are earning a lot of money or the other content creators earning a lot of money. Other states have enacted a provision like that, California, Illinois, and Minnesota.

And the other thing it does is it allows the child right when they reach adulthood to have the content removed from the internet. While presenting the bill before the house, Kevin read letters from some of his children, the first being 16-year-old Jay. And to remind people who Jay is, after her younger siblings were rescued from Jody's House of Horrors,

police found Jay at Jody and Ruby's business partner, Pam Botcher's house. And what was born, Pam making Jay do, cleaning Pam's entire house. Well, here is what Jay now has to say to Utah lawmakers. Take a listen. This bill should be passed. Smiley face. Had it been in place when my family was doing YouTube, my mom would not have been able to withdraw all of my savings I had from doing YouTube. This bill will prevent other kids from having to go through the pain of realizing that, the compensation for years' worth of time and effort is suddenly gone.

Another thing this bill would do that should have been done a long time ago is give adults over the age of 18 the right to have monetized images and videos of themselves taken off social media platforms from when they were kids. As kids, you don't realize what you're subjected to. Really, you're selling your life, your privacy, your body, and stories to the entire world. and as a child you're involuntarily giving up all of that you're selling your childhood though there is no amount of money that can make up for that loss the least that can be done now is making sure the child is getting paid for her work and has the right to remove it and walk away

if she wants to my initial impression this statement is so sad to hear so sad because it's basically saying that in jay's opinion look if my parents want to make me work, take away my privacy, take away my childhood. The least they can do is pay me for it. And while she's right, she's right. It is such a tragic sentiment. Our homes are supposed to be our sanctuaries where we come to decompress, escape the world, feel safe, and have privacy from the world. But what these family vlogs are doing is turning their homes into a reality TV set where very little remains sacred. And when parents are in charge of these vlogs, well, all of this is done without the child's consent. And yes, always done without the child's consent. Because as for as Kevin

Frankie pointed out in his initial statement, children cannot give informed consent. Children cannot give informed consent to be filmed on social media, period. If we as adults cannot understand the emotional and psychological impacts of sharing our lives to millions of strangers online? How can we expect our children to understand them? Few, if any, legal protections currently exist for those children, and I believe it's time to change that. I support Representative Owens' bill, and I believe it to be a great first step towards protecting child influencers here in the state of Utah, and there is much more to do in the future. In an incredibly powerful statement, we then hear from E for the first time since she was rescued from Jody Hildebrenz house.

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I think these new rules will keep the children of Utah more safe because I know more about the horrible situation that a lot of kids are in right now more than anyone. When I was on YouTube, I thought nothing was wrong. I felt, quote, unquote, happy. But I really wasn't. When I started getting older, I realized the YouTube channel had ruined my childhood. But at least I got some money, right? Oh, right. I actually didn't because my mom withdrew all of it in 2023.

I worked hard for that money. I acted like someone I wasn't in front of that camera, and I earned that money, but I feel like my mom used me for money. I know many of the YouTube channels out there today deny this and say their channels are different, and their kids choose it, and don't act in front of the camera. But every YouTuber parent expects their kids to act a certain way. Even if the kids themselves do a channel, they deserve the money, not the parents. You all might be saying right now that my dad told me to say these things and is using me, but that is not true.

This statement was actually my idea. If anyone is using their kids, it's the YouTubers filming them for money. I'm not saying YouTube is a bad thing. Sometimes it brings us together. But kids deserve to be loved, not used, by the ones that are supposed to love. love them the most. I know I am stuck with the trauma of YouTube, but for some kids, it's not too late. Even now, I can barely make friends because my whole life, I was the center of the attention, but now, without even realizing it, I seek attention from others, or I feel like they don't like

me. Then those people think I mean. And when many of these young YouTubers grow up, and they don't have the money they earned, and they need to rely heavily on the internet and their parents to survive, then you will know that I'm right. I've said all the reasons I like this law. I want those parents who love their children, but don't believe me to know I'm right. Please listen to me. Your kids deserve better lives and this law will help that become a reality. Can we just take a second to commend E for being able to so perfectly articulate her position? 11 years old. She was so articulate. She has described the effects that most people may not even consider, like the fact that being thrust into the spotlight sometimes since birth can lead to children thinking that they need to go above and beyond to get attention or else they won't be liked.

And how if parents don't set money aside, they will be forced to continue posting online in order to survive on their own? All of a sudden, they don't even have a choice but to put their own content online. And many of these people have pointed out that one moment from these powerful statement, quote, I know many YouTube channels out there deny this and say their channels are different and their kids choose it, end quote, as well as saying, quote, I want those parents who don't believe me to know I'm right, end quote. Well, many believe the E may be referring to her aunt Bonnie, who in response to Sherry's book just recently, just recently posted a video defending her choice to continue family vlogging, despite how Sherry. or her other nieces and nephews feel about the topic. Bonnie has said that her family does put aside money for the children and that her children enjoy it and all of the opportunities that they get from vlogging. Joel and I sat down together and we really thought,

is what we're doing wrong? Is what we're doing okay? And then we took it to our kids and we said, what would you guys think if we stopped showing you? You know, what if we kept filming and we just didn't show you? and it hurt their feelings. And they said, well, why would you do it without us? And it made them feel insignificant.

It made them feel not a part of what we were doing. And you can make the argument. They don't have informed consent. Well, what is consent for a child? A child can't even go in for a well check without parental consent. They can't be enrolled in school without the parental consent. And so their consent is me. I am their consent.

And the informed part comes and weighs on my shoulders. And if you're looking at family vlogging from my children's perspective, it's apples and oranges compared to the eight passengers. I think that what Sherry is doing is right for her. But we are living two night and day different lives. Now, I understand that there are arguments in support of family vlogging, and many parents do work to have boundaries and protect their children's privacy. But despite any parents defending their family vlogging business, no one opposed the bill and it passed unanimously. It will now go forward to the Utah Senate. The girl's statement of what can happen during the process of creating family vlogs is honestly, it is heartbreaking. Kevin even stated that he believes forcing his children into family vlogging was wrong. and is a decision he deeply regrets. Today, I want to be direct and clear.

Vlogging my family, putting my children into public social media was wrong, and I regret it every day. It's clear that voicing their opinions on the implications of family vlogging has been just one step towards healing for the Frankie children. However, to heal from the trauma and abuse that was inflicted on them by Ruby and Jodi is undoubtedly going to take much longer. In Chad and Kevin's interview, we learned that all of the children, including E and R, who spent some time in foster care, are now together again in the family home. Many have been wondering, and that has now been answered. And even though this home is where the children's nightmare first began, they are working to create new happy memories there together without Ruby. Chad even decided to move back into the house as well and describes spending time with his siblings as a lot more free. despite all they've been through.

Kevin says there is finally laughter again and that they have adopted a lot of new furry family members as well. What does happiness look like for you guys? Enjoying time with my siblings, it's it feels a lot more free. It's wonderful to be surrounded by my children. There's laughter again. We have a lot of new furry friends. Our home is a zoo.

It is a zoo. And it's funny because they chew up all the floorboards. and everything and I'm just thinking if Ruby was here she'd be furious but Ruby's not and I don't care and I'm happy. In the People magazine interview, Chad explains that at home it doesn't feel like anyone is missing and he doesn't wish Ruby was there. Kevin says that the last time he heard from Ruby was in April of 2024 but he requested the Department of Corrections to tell Ruby to stop writing him letters. He said that he's still angry, I imagine, and that he needs space.

and time, and while he hoped she's getting the help that she needs, he has moved on and no longer wants her as part of his life. He even insinuated that he may be pursuing new romantic interests, but right now, he says that he is just focused on progressing and healing as a family. As of today, I'm still working through the divorce. We're trying to reach a settlement. It's been a long process well over a year, but it's ongoing. I'm still technically married. And so, I, you know, I'm holding off until the divorce was finalized. But, but, you know, I'm grateful for some friendships that I have, and I've gotten a lot of support from some friendships that I have.

And when the time's right, that's something I think that I'll look forward to pursuing. As a family, we're progressing and healing. While Kevin no longer wishes to speak to Ruby, Chad stated that even though he doesn't plan on talking to his mom anytime soon, maybe down the road, they can't have some sort of a relationship. What I really hope is that from here she becomes a better person and that she works on that and she truly tries to change. I have no contact with her right now and I don't plan to anytime soon. But then again, she's still blood. She's still my mom and maybe down the road eventually I'll have like a conversation with her and maybe eventually.

have a relationship where we can just talk. But, you know, when it comes to her actually being a mom and then eventually a grandma, I don't think I'll ever have that kind of close relationship again. My opinion. You didn't ask for it. And maybe I shouldn't share it, but my opinion, I'm personally glad that Utah lawmakers listen to E and J and that laws are being passed to protect minors who vlog with their families. This is new territory. Honestly, this is new. It's no longer just a a Hollywood issue. Rather, child stardom is now happening in homes across the globe. And we are only really beginning to understand the consequences that child influencers might suffer. As these children grow up and talk about their experiences, I certainly want to listen. My co-host, criminal psychologist,

Dr. John Matthias and I have been covering the Ruby Frankie and Jody Hildebrandt case since the very beginning, since their arrests. And we were even recently featured in the HBO Max episode, the curious case of Jody Hildebrandt, and you can find our whole Hildebrand playlist or season in the description of this episode. But we also plan to share our thoughts very soon on the newly released Hulu documentary. So hit subscribe and notifications because we plan to go live very soon with the latest. Also, let us know your thoughts in the comments below. Do you think that family vlogging is okay? Can it be healthy for some families? Do we need limits? Or how can families better handle vlogging. Do you think that these protections are enough? Are they needed? Or is this a government

overreach? Or are there even more protections that we haven't even thought of? I honestly think this is a discussion that needs to happen. And I'm grateful it's happening. I'm curious. I'm learning. So let us know your thoughts in the comments below, but also mostly, again, I just want to say thank you to E&J for their bravery coming forward. I am listening. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the Internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers.

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