Hidden True Crime - Shooter’s Family Gets MORE $$ Than Victims? | Grand Blanc LDS Church Shooting Updates

Episode Date: October 5, 2025

New details are emerging in the Grand Blanc LDS church shooting—and they’re both heartbreaking and haunting. We break down what we’ve learned about the victims, the survivors fighting to recover, and the man investigators say carried out the attack. From chilling survivor accounts to a fundraiser raising more money for the shooter’s family than the victims’, this episode dives into the pain, the faith, and the complicated compassion unfolding in the wake of tragedy. Beam: To get up 35% off on your order of Beam Dream, head to www.shopbeam.com/Truecrime and use code TRUECRIME About Hidden True Crime What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at⁠ ⁠⁠Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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My name is Lauren. This is Hidden True Crime. And we have some important updates tonight in the tragic LDS church shooting that unfolded in Grand Blank, Michigan. We have everything you need to know. What began as a horrifying act of violence inside the House of Worship has continued to ripple through the community, leaving investigators, congregants in families searching for answers. Authorities are still piecing together what led to this unimaginable moment, working tirelessly to uncover both the timeline and the motive behind it. At the same time, the public is slowly learning more day by day. New details are emerging about what

happened inside that chapel, the victims whose lives were shattered, and the suspect at the center of this case. Each update adds another layer to a story that is as devastating as it is unsettling, reminding us that even spaces that are meant to be sacred, safe, and set apart from the world's violence are not immune. Authorities have now released the identities of all four people who tragically lost their lives in the grand blank LDS shooting. Each name represents not just a victim of this violent act, but an entire life story, families, legacies, and communities forever altered. The first is 77-year-old John Bond. John was a Navy veteran, a father of six, and a grandfather of 10. His life was marked by service, family, and devotion.

In a heartbreaking detail shared by his wife, Joanne, we've learned that in his final moments, John told others that he wanted to call her, called Joanne. And that image alone of a husband, longing for his wife in his last breath, captures the devastating human cost of this tragedy. Another victim was also 77 years old, Pat Howard. And Pat is remembered as a devoted husband, while fewer details have been. made public about Pat. What is clear is the love he carried for his family and the loss his absence now leaves behind. We also remember Thelma Armstrong, a mother and grandmother who immigrated

to the United States from South Africa in 2019. Thelma was known for her kindness and her selfless spirit. And according to the GoFundMe created in her honor, she had been attending the church service with her daughter and her family that morning. She was described as someone who consistently put others before herself, a light in her family's life now tragically gone. And lastly, 78-year-old Craig Hayden, a former bishop in the congregation. Craig's daughter, Lisa, has since shared a remarkable message saying she forgives Sanford for his actions already forgiving Sanford, the shooter in this tragedy. And that message of forgiveness. delivered in the midst of unbearable grief has struck many as both profound and moving,

underscoring strength and faith that Craig himself was known for throughout his life. And the letter she wrote reads, and I'll read it here, quote, I know many of you may not want to hear this. When I gave a description of Thomas to the FBI, I told them he had blue eyes, blue eyes brightened by tears, red, and teary. All I saw as I searched my memory was blue eyes. When he came over me, I felt very calm, peaceful. even as I kneeled next to my dad, my hands still on dad. It felt like a long time I stared into his

eyes while answering his question. The only way I can describe it is I saw into his soul. I never took my eyes off his eyes. Something happened. I saw pain. He felt lost. I deeply felt it with every fiber of my being. I forgave him. I forgave him right there, not in words, but with my heart. And later I kept asking to see a picture of him. Something about his blue eyes caused me confusion. I questioned if I was remembering what I saw correctly. And when I finally saw his picture, his eyes were not blue. I couldn't understand. I know what I was. It was seared in my brain. In the middle of the night, while texting my sister, I realized it was my eyes that I saw. I saw into his soul and he saw into mine. He let me live. I am sharing this now.

Because I believe it is just one of the many reasons I was there. Just one of the reasons I needed to share this for Papa, for dad, for anyone who can set aside hate. Maybe that time won't be now for you, but maybe one day. What we do and say matters. Fear breeds anger. Anger breeds hate, hate breeds suffering. If we can stop the hate, we can stop the suffering. But stopping the hate takes all of us, I promise you, if for one month you can stop

using crude language. If you can stop taking the Lord's name in vain, you will feel a change. We can start there. If you stop letting anger in, hate can't spread. We can stop it. We can stop the anger and the hate and stop suffering somewhere for someone. End quote. In addition to the four lives that were lost, we now know more about those who were injured in the grand blank LDS church shooting. The Deserate News out of Salt Lake City, Utah has confirmed the identity of several victims who survived, though many are facing long and difficult recoveries. Four individuals suffered gunshot wounds. Among them is Ben Phelps, who remains hospitalized as he continues to fight through his injuries. Ben's six-year-old son was also struck, shot in the

arm, in a small piece of hopeful news. That little boy has since been released from the hospital and is now back home recovering with his family. Another survivor, Greg McCatt, which shot three separate times. The severity of his injuries underscores just how devastating the attack was. Yet he is alive facing what will no doubt be a long painful road ahead. And Jeff Kubiak was struck in the lake. Another reminder, again, of how chaotic the gunfire was inside the chapel that morning. Jeff has already undergone two surgeries after his ankle was shattered in the attack, one to remove a bullet and embedded leather from his foot. and another for a skin graft to help close the wound and repair that damaged skin.

Jeff's wife Marie also dealt with minor injuries in her hands and feet. They were injured by glass shards. So at least two people sustained shrapnel wounds, including Dr. Jared Hicken, an emergency room physician who was struck in the thigh. And his six-year-old daughter, Piper, was also injured hit in the back by shrapnel. The thought of a child being harmed in a place of worship, alongside her father, I mean, a child being harmed, and then in a place of worship, and then alongside her father. Just another heartbreaking piece of this story. We also know that three additional individuals

suffered from smoke inhalation in the chaos of the attack. One of them, another physician, remains hospitalized as doctors work to stabilize his condition. These names and injuries paint a picture not just of loss, but of survival of families forever changed by these physical. physical scars, emotional scars, and a congregation award that will carry the trauma of that morning with them forever for years to come. In the days since the attack, survivors have slowly begun sharing their own accounts of what happened inside that chapel, their stories, a chilling glimpse into the chaos and fear of those first moments and the resilience it took to survive. Some of the most powerful voices have actually come from teenagers on TikTok who have used that platform to document their experiences and to connect with others trying to process this tragedy.

And one young girl in particular described the sheer terror of the moment the suspect's car came crashing right through the building. In her video, she recalls the instant confusion and panic as the sound of gunfire followed and how instinct just took over. She grabbed her toddler sister, rushing her to safety amid the screams and chaos unfolding them. Take a listen. I'm going to start off with. We had just got into church. It was around 9.50 a.m. We went and did our greetings with our brothers and sisters before finding somewhere to sit for a sacrament.

It was just me and half of my family, as there was other family and other places that day. So we sat in one of the smaller benches closer to the walls. We chose the middle of the left side to sit. We started with our song in a prayer for. for bread and water as the body and blood of Jesus Christ. It was at 10.20 when our speaker came up to the mic. I was looking down at my phone, looking for cars, showing them to my dad to see what he would think about them.

At about two minutes later, at around 10.22 a.m. was when the beginning of the tragedy that hit. Boom, I jump up and look up from my phone in confusion as to what had happened. As I look up, I can see the chairs at the front of the chapel, falling on one another while our talker looked back at us with confusion i thought something had happened i thought someone had collapsed i thought someone had been shot before it actually started um my dad and iraq veteran um in the air force and a few others actually realized it had been a vehicle that had crashed into the front of the chapel and thought it was something medical and went to go check it out boom boom boom

We were being attacked. Get out of here, get to the back of the building, get to the car. I heard things from different directions by different people. I picked up my two-year-old sister as my dad was already far enough up from going to investigate the crash. My stepmom not being able to process what was going on, thinking it was the roof collapsing due to the hard hit of the vehicles. I ran into the chapel, expecting to get shot from behind me, running with my sister, losing my family. As I was running out, I heard someone come onto the mic.

Brothers and sisters, dot, dot, dot. Then boom, he stopped talking. And later, I found out he was one of the guys that had been shot and killed. I ran and hit my sister's foot on a door. She was crying, and I was struggling to keep her quiet. I found myself in a relief society room, which had the door leading to outside. I kept hearing shots, and I went towards the door to see if it would be safe to run out. I was too scared.

was a desk I went under and realizing it, I had a big opening, so no. The room is filled with chairs and there was nowhere to hide. I looked out the door to the hallway, considering running to another room. I was too scared to go out. I head behind the door and dialed 9-1. No one answered. As I was alone with my crying baby sister, losing belief in survival, the shooting stops for maybe about 30 seconds to a minute.

Jumping over to my dad's perspective, we couldn't find my daughter. I went back to the chapel twice, hoping I wouldn't find their bodies there. The second time I went in there, I was face to face with the gunsmen. His body was faced right towards me, and he had a dog with him. He was struggling with being able to unjam his rifle, and I could have saved the church right at that moment. My dad has a license to be able to carry on him, and in this one time, he felt hopeless standing there. He felt horrible because after his interaction, there had been more injured and killed, and our building had been destroyed. I heard that silence of the shooting, the pause of it, which I believe was when my dad told the gun had been jammed.

A family came running in, saw me be out in the door with my sister. A girl that had been a part of the group was screaming and crying in another's name, which I believe was a female's name. They were pulling her out, and one of the older ones saying, it's okay, come on, we have to go. and as they were coming, I heard two more shots. I followed the family outside, realizing that the shooter had been inside the chapel. I was running towards the woods, not being able to find my family's car. Kaylee yelled to my stepmom. I felt so relieved to have been able to find them.

We got to the car and my dad pressed all the way down on the pedal. I've never gone that fast. I had my sister in my hands not being able to buckle her with the amount of time we had. As we were leaving, we saw the gunsman outside. He had his dog and was going to his truck. He pulled out what I believe was gasoline. He had, there was a, it was a gray truck. It was silver, and he had two flags, two flags in the back of it.

That's all we saw of him before we got too far to be able to see anymore. We drove to the suburb that was down the street to take a moment to realize what had just happened. It all happened so quick, but it felt so long. For these young survivors, social media has become both a diary, a lifeline, an outlet to share what words often can't capture, and a way to remind the world that behind every headline, every mass shooting, are real people who lived through the unthinkable. Their voices, again, add another layer to this story. And it isn't just a story about loss and violence. It's also a story about survival. It's a story about courage, about heroes, and the scramble that you can feel the intense scramble to protect the ones you love when every second matters. Another story shares the bravery of a teenage boy as he saved his younger brothers from being shot.

Take a listen. My nephew's a hero and just what he did is so impressive for a 14-year-old teenager. Amber Rose and Jasper Zant knows all of the kids. about Grand Blank, Michigan. This is home. This is where I grew up. The church that burned to the ground was her childhood meeting house. I grew up doing youth conferences there. Rosen's younger sister Michelle and her family escaped the massacre.

Within seconds, you started hearing the shooting, and he was like, it was just pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. Jasper was coming down the hall from the bathroom when he realized there was an active shooter. He grabbed the two boys. They're eight and ten. He rushed into the chapel and led his two younger brothers to an exit. Everyone's trying to use the one door to get out, and this is hundreds of people trying to get out. It was mass chaos trying to avoid the shooter who was firing at those running outside. Everyone started flocking to a different door. They just started getting pushed against the glass where they were getting smushed.

Just without even thinking just takes his elbow and just like hits it a few times and the whole thing shatters with no cut to him. Jasper freed his family and put his brothers in a car that drove off-site to safety. But his 11-year-old sister Josie was still missing. The trauma of retelling what it was like to hide behind cars during a parking lot shootout brought Jasper's aunt to tears. They said they would wait. They'd hear pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, and then they'd run. Josie was found hiding in the woods.

Jasper just sees her and just sprints and grabs her. And of course, it was a wonderful reunion for them to know that their family then was all together and that they were safe. And while Jasper's mom is suffering from smells, smoke inolation, the family remains forever grateful. I believe angels were with them. And I believe that they were there helping guide him to do those things. A quick word from our sponsor.

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leaving the military, Sanford moved to Utah. Friends say that was when they saw a shift, one they believed may have been tied to his ongoing struggles with addiction. One long-time friend, Kaluche, remember that Sanford as a short, stocky ball of energy. He said he was the kind of guy who once bought dozens of flowers just so he could hand them out to girls before the homecoming dance. But by the time he returned from military service, that version of Sanford seemed to be gone. His demeanor had changed, his energy dim. Those who spent time with him, and he, and he him in more recent years recalled disturbing conversations, often servicing during late-night gatherings around bonfires. A man named Francis, who along with his twin brother, had once considered

Sanford, one of his best friends, said it wasn't unusual for him to suddenly launch into rants about religion, claiming that Mormons were going to take over. So more friends coming forward about sort of this issue he had with Mormons in general. and a fear, though, now, a paranoia that Mormons were actually going to take over. These stories paint a picture of a man who over time seemed to drift further from maybe who he once was. I'm going to suspect that maybe this is who he always was, but then you add trauma to who he is. And leaving friends unsettled and unsure, though, of how to reconcile the memories of the person they perhaps thought they knew with the man that they would see. something so horrendous. I think that's often when crimes happen, trying to process the person

we thought we knew with the person who did the unimaginable. Samford also appears to have ties to a local congregation, clearly not Mormon, not LDS, and that congregation is known as the River Church. But interesting story, in just a week before the shooting, he attended one of their special baptism events. It's a service designed for individuals who feel ready to take that next spiritual step. And while there, Sanford allegedly reportedly expressed a desire for his young son to be baptized in that church. And church staff spoke at length with Sanford, his family and the little boy himself. They did interviews and sort of checked in with everyone to see if they were ready for baptism. And after those conversations, they felt his son wasn't yet ready for baptism. But

they assured the family they would follow up and help guide him through the preparation process. Well, the pastor of the river church said that Sanford became agitated after this conversation and left with his family after being told his son was not ready for baptism. And that pastor said it was not a positive interaction, but not one so negative that arose to the level that we would contact the police or anything. That was a quote. So it's a haunting. detail again that Stanford standing inside a church talking about baptism and spiritual rebirth with his child only days before unleashing violence inside another house of worship directed another religion. But while the attack itself and everything that has followed has been devastating,

there has also been a powerful example of generosity and compassion unfolding behind the scenes. So after the shooting, that same church, the river church, the river church, held a prayer vigil for the victims. They also released a statement saying, Our hearts are so heavy for the tragic loss from the shooting in the LDS community, end quote. Then they continued, quote, we are broken for them, broken for the community of Grand Blank, and broken for the world. We will be available helping people realize Jesus is the hope for the world, end quote. Again, powerful reminder of how people, organizations, and different religions can always come together for the right reasons, even if their beliefs aren't exactly the same.

And that generosity has extended not just to the families of the victims, but also to the family of the shooter, Thomas Sanford, Jake, as he's known, and his widow wife and their son, who we've learned has an ongoing medical issue with constant needs. So often when tragedies like this happen, Entire families are unfairly villainized or punished for the actions of one of their family members. Yet, interestingly, in this case, the response has been very different. Members of the LDS community have actually come together to support Sanford's grieving family, recognizing their pain and loss as separate from his actions. And at the time of this recording, a give-send-go fundraiser,

launched by a fellow Latter-day Saint who does not personally know the family has raised nearly $300,000. The organizer, Dave, describes himself as simply, quote, an ordinary member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And in his words, he says, quote, like all of you, I was shocked by the murders at the LDS Chapel in Grand Blank, Michigan on September 22nd. Multiple families were left grievously wounded and in need of help. One of the families that suffered a terrible loss on that day was the family of Thomas Jacob Sanford, the shooter. Sanford leaves behind a wife and child who must be grieving. They will face financial hardship and psychological trauma as a result of this week's horrifying events. On top of that, Sanford's son deals with serious medical challenges

that require ongoing care, treatment, and specialized support. In the past, the family attempted to raise funds for him, but with limited success. Every donation will go to help provide for the Sanford family daily needs, provide for ongoing medical treatment, and create some stability in a time of heartbreak and upheaval. Thank you for your kindness, your compassion, and your willingness to lift up those who are suffering." End quote. Well, the outpouring of support has served, for me, at least, as a reminder that compassion can exist even in the wake. of horror and that empathy can stretch across dividing lines, even when, honestly, it would be easier to probably turn away. I do want to acknowledge something important here. We don't know yet

how the surviving victims and their families feel about this fundraiser for the Sanford family. It's possible that some may take comfort and seeing compassion extended broadly. We know that some of the victims have already outwardly said they forgive the shooter. But it's as, it's as, you know, It's just as possible that others may feel hurt, conflicted, or even angry about this fundraiser. And that tension is especially real when you consider that as of now, the fundraiser for the Sanford family has raised significantly more than any of the other donation pages set up for the victims themselves.

So in a tragedy like this, where grief and trauma runs so deep, even well-intentioned generosity can stir complicated emotions. Crime stirs complicated emotions in general. And I just want to say that's something worth keeping in mind as this story continues to unfold. On the flip side, this response also reflects something deeply rooted in LDS values. Within the faith, acts of kindness, generosity, and service are seen as outward expressions of discipleship. Helping others, especially the poor, the sick and the grieving, is not just encouraged. It's woven, honestly, into the.

daily fabric of church life. From youth programs to relief society efforts, Latter-day Saints are taught from an early age to look outward, to bring a meal to someone in need, to donate to humanitarian causes, to show up for families in crisis. And that same ethos seems to have carried into the way many members have responded to this case in particular, not just rallying around the victim's families, but also extending empathy and support to the Sanford family, despite the horror. And it is a horror what Thomas Sanford did, a horror that will have permanent effects across generational lines for years and decades and generations to come.

Mormon teachings draw heavily from scripture about loving your neighbor, turning the other cheek, even praying for your enemies. In practice, this often means that in moments of tragedy like this, rather than focusing solely on anger or blame, many within the LDS community try to channel their faith into action, showing compassion to everyone who is hurting, even when that compassion seems counterintuitive. It is interesting to watch, but it's an honor to watch as well. And in the wake of the grand blank shooting, we see exactly this happening. Donations, prayers, and gestures of empathy have gone not only to those mourning loved ones, but to the widow and child of the man responsible for the horror, the man responsible for the violence, the man responsible for taking many lives and hurting many lives.

It is complicated. It's emotional, but one that aligns with the deepest values of the faith, that kindness should not have boundaries, and that even when faced with enemies, one is called to answer with love. And the man, actually, who started this donation for the family, reminds us all that the widow and the child of this man are not enemies. Take a listen. I see a lot of comments regarding Love Your Enemies. in the children of the shooter are not our enemies. They are victims in this as well. Victims of one man's hate.

And it truly is tragic. And I feel that the anger that people feel about it is warranted. The things that are happening in our country right now, it seems overwhelming, the evil and the hatred. And so I

get people's gut reaction. But I love the idea of just taking a step back, looking at it as objectively as we can unemotionally and recognizing that this young kid that has this you know this problem he he is not uh our enemy yeah and what's happening here isn't dave butler utah man gives $225,000 to the shooter's family it's no you simply by the grace of god figured out how to work technology to open up a give set go tell my kid to the typing. I couldn't even.

He's too small, daughter. I know that. Please help. Those who don't know, he's like 6.10. You massive hands. You just opened up a door and over 5,000 people have decided that's right.

I hadn't even looked at it today. I don't even know what it's at right now, but yeah, it was over 5,000 last night. Many of you reached out after our last episode to say how much President Nelson's words resonated with you. And now, as the LD community finds itself grieving on multiple fronts, not only mourning the passing of their beloved church president, but also the loss of brothers and sisters in this devastating attack, many feeling

the lack of safety now as they worship. I want to close with more of President Nelson's profound counsel. His voice has carried hope and direction for so many, for so many years. And so in a moment like this, when faith is tested, hearts are heavy, those words can take on deeper meaning. So I end with this. Contention reinforces the false notion that confrontation is the way to resolve differences. But it never is. Contention is a choice. Peacemaking is a choice.

You have your answer. agency to choose contention or reconciliation. I urge you to be a peacemaker, now and always. Brothers and sisters, we can literally change the world, one person and one interaction at a time. How? By modeling how to manage honest differences of opinion with mutual respect. and dignified dialogue. Differences of opinion are part of life. Charity is the antidote to contention. Charity is the spiritual gift

that helps us to cast off the natural man who is selfish, defensive, prideful, and jealous. Charity is the principal characteristic of a true follower of a true follower of Jesus Christ. Charity defines a peacemaker in situations that are highly charged and filled with contention. I invite you to remember Jesus Christ. Pray to have the courage and wisdom to say or do what he would. As we follow the Prince of Peace, we will become His

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