Hidden True Crime - STAMPIN UP HEIRESS: Extradited, arraigned and the new client of defense attorney Jose Baez

Episode Date: February 5, 2024

This episode was recorded in November 2023 and is the third episode in our series about Shanna Gardner, daughter of Stampin' Up founders charged with murder. New info from insider sources as we continue to delve into Shanna Gardner--the woman charged in the murder of her ex husband Jared Bridegan For full access to Shanna Gardner and Jared Bridegan's divorce documents, including their pre-nup, head to our Patreon account HERE JOHN MATTHIAS is a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with 30 years’ experience in both clinical and forensic work. He serves as an expert witness for the federal government and has consulted on numerous high-profile cases for District Attorney’s offices and defense attorneys in several states. In the forensic area, Dr. Matthias has developed expertise in personality assessments, hidden behavioral motivations, complex trauma and criminal psychology. In the clinical realm, he has worked with numerous victims. He received his Master’s degree in Marriage, Family and Child counseling, as well his doctorate degree, from the University of Southern California. Dr. Matthias graduated with honors in philosophy from Princeton University, and he won the prestigious McCosh Thesis prize while there. In high school he graduated valedictorian from a large public high school in Chicago where he was chosen to participate in a ground-breaking valedictory study that continues to this day. Dr. Matthias has been an adjunct assistant professor in the University of Nevada Las Vegas clinical psychology doctoral program since 2007. He supervises UNLV doctoral students on forensic assessments, clinical case formulation, and various therapeutic approaches to clinical work. LAUREN MATTHIAS has worked as an anchor and reporter for ABC, NBC, and FOX News in East Idaho, Boise, Idaho and Salt Lake City, Utah. She spent a decade reporting on a diverse range of topics from high profile crimes to Presidential visits. Most recently, she reported for Salt Lake City’s ABC affiliate News4Utah. In 2015 she received the Idaho State Broadcaster’s Association Best Reporter award. She left the reporting world to produce the Hidden True Crime Podcast along with her husband Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist. Your support helps us produce these podcasts/videos. We have some big plans to explore the true crime terrain in a way that no one else has attempted. HIDDEN: A TRUE CRIME PODCAST is: CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY REINVENTED. Join us on a journey into the darkest recesses of the human mind and the unconscious motivations that drive human behaviors in order to understand the world and ourselves. WEBSITE: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ TO SUPPORT: https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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With new line on my plan, service plan required for watch and tab. Additional terms apply. See Verizon.com for details. Hidden, a true crime podcast. A forensic psychologist and a journalist explore the hidden motives behind untoward. thinkable crimes while examining our deepest fears along the way. Hello, gems. Happy Saturday night hidden hour. We are back. Thank you, everyone, for your patience. We missed all of you last week.

We're so glad to be here tonight and back with each of you. Somebody did ask how my brother was. I'll quickly say that my brother is still only minimally conscious. And his birthday's coming up in two days. I was seven years old and he was born. I remember it while when he was born. It was my last chance. I thought it was my last chance to have a sister and he was a boy.

And I was disappointed, but no longer. And I just wished I could talk to him again. So thank you for everyone that keeping him in your thoughts or your prayers or your vibes. It is his birthday on Monday. And we're all thinking of him over here. So I miss our conversations. Thank you, everyone. here tonight. Thank you for subscribing to our channel. Thank you for joining a membership.

Thank you for those who become Patreon members and support us there. And thank you to those who like this video. Just something as simple as that really is the greatest support. So thank you. And we have a great program prepared for you tonight. It's been a few weeks. Not a few weeks, more than that. How long has it been since we've talked about Shanna Gardner? Two months. Two months, two months, a lot has happened. And we have continued our research and talking to people behind the scenes. For those that are new to this case, I will quickly brief you and then John will go a little bit deeper so you will not be left behind. Many might know this case from the headline about a Microsoft executive being murdered, gunned down.

That was Shannon Gardner's ex-husband, the father to Shannon Gardner's two children. twin children. And he was gone down while his child, two-year-old child, was in a car seat, in the car. And three people have now been arrested and charged in his murder in Jared Bridigan. His name is Jared Bridigan. He lost his life so young. He was married. He is on his second marriage. He had two more children and his life was taken from him. Three people. have been charged. Why don't you take it away? Well, so I think, so you set the stage enough, I think that we can talk about a timeline a little bit. I think a timeline, since we've had a couple months to ponder this case, I think we've developed more of an interesting timeline that provides

some insights into this case. So yes, we have, we have new insight into this case and a new information. So stay with us here. Thank you. Yeah. So I would recommend And also that people go back and listen to our, we did two shows on this case. And I think it would help to provide some context and background to go back and listen to those. The one was the last week of August. I don't have the exact date in front of me. The other was September 2nd. We do have a Shannon Gardner playlist.

Okay. Let me, I'll find out the exact name, but we have a playlist now of all of the shows we have done when it comes to this. And I do. I highly recommend those shows. I'll help pull them up. In terms of the relevant timeline that you were developing, so on February 16th of 2022, Jared Brightigan, who is the father of twins, Liam and Abbey, and Bexley and London, Bexley and London are from his second marriage to Kirsten.

His first marriage was to Shanna Gardner, who is the defendant, one of the defendants in this case. So on February 16th of 2022, Jared Brightigan stopped on his way home because there was a tire in the middle of the road. He exited the car just briefly and he was gunned down from behind by an unknown assailant. One of the reasons there's a charge, there were four charges that occurred from a grand jury in Florida that they came back with four indictments on August 17th of 2023. one of the charges was a child abuse charge because Bexley, who was two years old at the time, was in a car seat in the back of the car, and bullets were found fairly close to her. So obviously shooting at Jared and or nearly missing a child is clearly a form of child abuse. So that's why there's that charge.

So Bexley was found in the car. Her father, Jared, had been gunned down, had been murdered. and there were a few clues left from the crime scene. One of them was that they had video surveillance that showed a particular vehicle in the area, but they weren't able to identify the vehicle. On August of 2022, there was an arrest made of a man named Henry Tenon. Henry Tenon had a past record.

He was a felon. He was not arrested for that particular crime. But after being incarcerated for a bit, they were able to tie Henry Tenon to the vehicle that was on the video, on the surveillance video. And Henry was charged in January of 2023. Then Mario Fernandez Saldano, who was Shana's second husband. They were married after the divorce from Jared, which occurred in 2015. Mario was arrested in March of 2023. He was arrested in connection with the crimes

because he had a connection to Henry Tenant. Henry Tenon was a tenant of Marios, and we still don't know specifics. We don't have a lot of details. So the grand jury received most of the details. They haven't been released publicly, but the grand jury obviously found enough information to come back with four charges.

So we know a little bit. We know some connections that Mario had a connection to Henry Tenon. We don't know for sure what Henry Tenon has disclosed at this point. I think we're all kind of waiting to see. Is your mic off, by the way? Yeah, no, it is. I just turned it off. Yeah, so I think we're all waiting.

I think if anybody's going to be the most forthcoming, it's going to be Henry, you know. So, right. Right. So then in August of 2022, there's a couple other pieces in here that are interesting. In August of 2022, Shanna Gardner separates from Mario. So remember that Henry Tennant is arrested for unrelated charges in August of 2022. We've since learned that in August of 2020 was a big month, by the way, for this case. August of 2022, Shana Gardner separates from REO and she moves in the same month.

She moves to Washington State, where apparently her parents had purchased a home for her to reside with her children. So what's interesting about that, I think, is that there were no charges at the time with anyone. So even Henry Tenon was just arrested, but presumably, this is an inference, but presumably Shannon Gardner is very concerned when Henry Tenon is arrested and she seems to think that it will lead to his events to arrest eventually. she moves literally within a month, within two to four weeks of that arrest, she moves to

Washington State, she changes her name, she distanced herself from Mario, apparently thinking that somehow the authorities will be misled by this change in her life. I don't know, I don't know what she's thinking. But then Mario is arrested in March of 2023. In August, August 17th of 2023, Shana is arrested in Washington State. after a grand jury in Florida comes back with four charges, including, I have the indictment somewhere, including, let me read the charges. So the four charges are murder in the first degree, conspiracy to commit murder, solicitation to commit a capital felony and child abuse. So that occurs on August 17, 2023. The problem is that the crimes occurred in Florida,

and Chana is residing in Washington State. So the state of Florida request extradition to Florida. That takes a bit of time. It takes a couple of months. On October 20th of this year of 2023, she's finally extradited to Florida and booked into local detention in Jacksonville. And as some of you know by now,

she was arraigned yesterday, November 3rd, 2023. So those are. are the main components of the timeline in terms of the three major players that have been arrested. The three players that have been arrested are Henry Tenon, Mario, Fernandez, and Shana Gardner Fernandez, or Shana Gardner, depending on how you want to, I don't think she's divorced yet. So I think it's, I think she changed her name, but some people refer to her Gardner Fernandez, some Gardner Lee, which apparently sort of made in name. I don't know.

I've started calling her to Shana Gardner because I think that's what she's sort of trying to, she's trying to, is familiar, right? Like Chad and Lori, but I think she's trying to separate herself from Mario. So those are the main people involved. That's the trifecta people that have been arrested. Those are the main dates. if we want to fill in some history, I think, which is useful in that timeline. So if I enlarge that timeline a little bit, I would go back to 2010, which is when Jared and

Shanna met. And just quickly on that story, for those who didn't listen to some of her other shows about this case, the stories we've heard from multiple sources and from mission companions who knew both Shana and Jared. The story is that Shanna went on a date with Jared in 2010. She said she wasn't attracted to him, and she in fact said that it was the worst date she'd ever been on. So it looked pretty grim at that point that there'd be a future for this couple.

She told this to many people, many people. Well, she bragged about it. And she wrote a story that she read to some missionaries that she thought was funny. And so the prospects for a future for them did not look particularly good at that point, but Shanna, not to be outdone, apparently learned that Jared was not interested in her. So now, I think, now the game changed a little bit. Now, Shana was feeling rejected and she began pursuing Jared, which eventually led to their relationship and their marriage in 2010. So I think I would argue that that wasn't exactly the best foundation for a marriage.

which obviously unraveled five years later in 2015. So the marriage begins on somewhat shaky ground. It appears that Shanna was very much interested in pursuing Jared for whatever reasons. I think we've heard from some people that she always had to win, that she obviously didn't like rejection, that in some ways this seemed to be a game for her. So it was a game that she apparently won in the end because they married. somebody told us that they believed the only reason they married was because Shanna wanted children

and she was feeling some pressure to have kids and Jared seemed like a good choice at the time. He was a nice guy, although apparently she wasn't attracted to him initially. So that's how their marriage begins in 2010. The marriage ends in divorce in 2015 primarily because, well, one of the reasons, one of the main reasons is because Shana has been unfaithful. She was unfaithful to Jared. She was in a relationship with a personal trainer. Jared, I think, was already questioning the merits of the relationship, but I think that probably pushed it over the edge. So she actually files for divorce in 2015, and that's when they get divorced. And that begins a custody battle. Shortly after the divorce, the custody battle really

starts gaining traction in 2016. That custody battle lasts up until Jared has gunned down on February 16th of 2022. What's interesting about the custody battle is there was a tremendous amount of conflict. There was a great deal in animosity. And if you look at the court documents, you see for those seven years that Shanna is pushing different narratives of Jared. She's looking for traction with the court in terms of how to get custody. She's being subsidized by her wealthy family. So her family owns a company called Stamping Up, which is an MLM in Utah that is estimated to be worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

But the important point here is that there were several narratives that were several narratives that the family was trying to push about Jared. And they were pushing these in the court documents. Let me continue with the custody battle and some of the arguments that Shanna was making to the court. She essentially was trying to portray Jared as a villain. She began by saying, and this by the way, was on the one television interview that she conducted, which was in July of 2022. In that interview, she suggested that,

Jared was involved with shady characters and he had shady business dealings. And so her argument was that he couldn't be trusted to have custody of the kids because he was clearly sort of hanging out with these shady characters. That didn't get a lot of traction. So then she went into claiming that Jared was abusive towards the children. So clearly if you're abusive, you probably shouldn't have custody of the kids. That didn't get any traction. Then she went to that Jared was.

assaulting her or had assaulted her. And there was no evidence for any of those claims, by the way. So this notion, this narrative that she's floating about what a villain Jared is and how horrendous he is just didn't really take with the courts. So I think she, Shanna fully expected that that's one of those narratives would resonate with the court and that, of course, she should get custody of the kids. One person told us that Shanna was very surprised. that she wasn't getting custody. And in fact, she became enraged. She started, over time,

she started becoming more enraged over the fact that the courts weren't taking her more seriously, that they weren't buying her arguments, and that she couldn't believe that Jared kept fighting. So you can imagine over a period of seven years, the costs involved, and the time and energy involved in continuing up that battle was very hard on Jared,

and we know that from talking to sources. And we have all of those, and we have all those divorce documents on our Patreon account, patreon.com slash hidden true crime, a lot of pages. It was a battle for a very long time, for years. Right. It was a battle. And there was some disbelief. But Jared fought.

And he didn't want to just relinquish access to his children or custody of his two twins. And so he fought. Yes. And so the portrait I'm trying to paint here is that. with the custody is that it was so contentious and the animosity continued to grow over time. And Shanna, as we talked about in some of our previous shows, Shana was very much, had a tremendous sense of entitlement, according to a lot of the people we talked with. She was used to getting her way, as one mission companion told us that, quote,

money overshadowed her personality and ruled her life. And that she was used to buying her way into and out of everything. and she was being subsidized by her family, by the way, by stamping up, let's say, which is the main source of income for her family. So I think she was really probably becoming angrier and angrier over time that this wasn't going her way. And by then, you know, prior to the actual hit, the actual murder, she was quite, she was, according to some of our sources, she was becoming quite enraged.

So I think that it's important to know how long the custody battle went on and some of the dynamics of that custody battle. And the reason I say that is because one of our sources very close to this case, I'm going to quote this source. One of our sources said that they believe that, and this is coming from a source, this is coming from me. But the source said, quote, the Gardner family enabled this murder by subsidizing. the ongoing custody conflicts. Yes. That was our source. So that's interesting. So I think it's important to recognize the length of the custody dispute and its

potential role in this whole scenario. There's some interesting elements of this timeline. I think we should also flesh out, which occurs after. So the murder occurs on February 16th, 2022. Another interesting component of the story that we haven't talked about is that in late spring, early summer, the Gardner family, or Shana, specifically, they hire a PR firm. So there's been no charges. There's been no charges on anyone.

And this is before Henry Tennant is arrested for unrelated charges in August of 2022. But the Gardner family hires a PR firm. And that is, by the way, why Shanna then appears for a television interview denying any involvement. involving in the murders. I mean, that is, let that soak in, everyone. Jared is murdered. And what do the gardeners do? Shelly and Sterling Gardner family,

the owners of Stampin Up, the MLM crafting company, they hire a PR firm. And part of the PR, apparently part of the PR firm's recommendations were to have, Shauna give that interview in Jacksonville with one of the local stations,

which she did. Or we assume so, because that's why you give two interviews when you have a PR firm. They tell you when to do interviews. So I just can't believe that. I just have to go back to that. That's what they did.

That's what they did. And so I think what's interesting about that is, I mean, it obviously raises questions about who knows what and when, right? But it also shows that there's some strategy here that if there is, if that shows to some degree possible guilt or possible involvement, it also shows that this is a family or at least if we just say Shana, I mean, I think it probably is the family because this family is close. They do everything together, but it shows some strategizing. It shows some... Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day.

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the authorities or law enforcement figures out what's going on, how are they going to deal with this? What's the best strategy? And clearly, giving an interview to a local news station would be the beginning, possibly, of having this case tried in the court of public opinion, or at least trying to sway public opinion. So if there are going to be arrests, then, you know, you want to get out in front of it, right? So it seems like that's part of the strategy here. What's one financial lesson you learned the hard way? I'll go first. It's not too late to start saving. Today's episode is sponsored by Acorns. Acorns is a financial wellness app that makes it easy to start saving and investing for your future. You don't need to be an expert.

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And we will get to that. There are some big things in this case to those that are saying, referring to Casey Anthony, it's attorney, you're absolutely right. We'll get to that. We will get to that. It's mind blowing. So this PR firm is hired 2022 before there's any arrests of any kind. Shanna does the interview for a local Jacksonville station. She gives a, one interview and that's it. She denies the murders or she denies the murder any involvement in the murder. Then Henry Tennant is arrested, or I should say he's pulled over in August of 2022. He's arrested and pulled over for, as I said, unrelated charges. Shana, she splits from Mario,

moves to Washington State, changes her name. Then we have the arrest in 2023, again, of Henry, and then we get the arrest of Mario in March of 2023. And finally, more recently, as I just said, we get, you know, the arrest of Shana is in August 17, 2023, and the arraignment the other day. So what's interesting about what's going on now, a couple of things is that the Gardner family switched the attorney to Jose Baez, who is about as well-known an attorney as you can get.

he's a New York City attorney who has been on a number of high profile cases. He's done quite well. He's had some losers for sure. All defense attorneys do. But he's been quite successful for a number of his clients, surprisingly, and Casey Anthony. So Casey Anthony is one of his highest profile clients. And as I'm sure everyone who falls through crime knows, Casey Anthony was acquitted.

And he was the attorney. There you go. One of the most maddening cases for so much. many still to this day. Yeah. Rightly so. Rightly so, by the way. But I have to say, it's interesting then that they would hire him.

I mean, what is that? Sorry, go ahead. Go ahead. Money's not an object, right? So why not? Let's talk about other clients he's had. He's had Aaron Hernandez, who was the pro football player who played at the University of Florida.

He was charged with and convicted on a few murders. his attorney was Jose Baez, Harvey Weinstein, who most of, I'm sure most of our listeners would know is the Hollywood movie, the big time Hollywood magnate movie producer who was heavily involved in the Me Too movement. So he didn't do too well with Harvey then. Yeah, no, Harvey wasn't one of his shining successes. So, yeah, I mean, defense attorneys are generally up against it for the most part. The most defense attorneys lose most cases. But he's had quite a few victories. He was the attorney for a major hedge fund person in New York. I don't remember the guy's name now, but he was accused of operating a Ponzi scheme,

a huge Ponzi scheme, by the way, billions of dollars. And he was initially acquitted, which was incredible. Tori Linaz was one of his clients. Tori Linaz is the person who, think he's a rapper. I'm not super familiar with him, but he was accused of shooting another rapper. And I believe, I don't remember the outcome. I think he was convicted. But yeah, but so Casey Anthony, for our purposes, Casey Anthony is the most interesting. Casey Anthony's case was in Florida. This case is in Florida, right? There's, I'm sure in some ways he's going to try to replicate the Casey Anthony

playbook, which was for him, it was largely based on getting information. or getting evidence excluded, evidence that could have been probably fairly compelling in terms of a conviction. And he did a really, I didn't, well, let me say this. I didn't follow that trial that closely. So I don't, I'm not a Casey Anthony guy. I didn't, I don't know the details of the trial that well. My understanding is, and for those of you who know that trial, you can, you can correct me if I'm wrong here. But my understanding of that trial is that he was able to get a great deal of evidence excluded. And that had a role in the outcome. But I didn't follow the trial that closely. It was interesting to me. I just sort of assume that incorrectly that the evidence would probably

lead to a conviction. But for those who know that trial, you'll have to correct me because I don't, I'm not an expert on that case at all. A couple interesting things. C. Taylor states that Weinstein sued him, Jose, for the return of his $1 million in fees. I'm not sure what happened with that. But that's interesting. And then Sherry Anderson states this. And I have to say, I agree.

Hiring is like a confession in some ways. I feel like, I mean, you don't hire him if you know you're innocent, do you? I mean, to me, it feels... You know, it's a very interesting choice. I mean, I think it sends a message. There's a sense in which hiring Jose Baez is a little tone deaf. Yeah, that's what I'm saying, which is kind of this family. This family, well, they're in a stamping up bubble, so I get it.

You know, when you're in a bubble, it's easy to be tone deaf. You don't know what's going around outside the bubble. But I feel like they just increase the media exposure. to this case times 20. I don't know if they want that. It is tone death. And what it implies, right, it's not a confession, what it implies and how desperate they are

and what they will pay and how they are truly, they don't seem to have any concern about justice for Jared, someone that used to be a member of their family. I mean, all these things. I just, anyway. Well, yeah, when I say it's tone deaf, I mean, I think it,

kind of smacks of wealth and privilege and an unlimited sense of entitlement. Like we can hire anyone we want. We can hire the best attorney that money can buy. We can hire the guy that got Casey Anthony acquitted, even if she was guilty. And again, I can't say she was guilty because I don't know the case that well. But we can do whatever we want and we're going to bring this high profile guy in and try to beat the odds, right? So.

Well said, by the way. I want to say you nailed it. Yes, it speaks of money and privilege and just, right. And entitlement. I think entitlement is a huge part of this whole story and this equation. And we'll get back to that in a little bit. So Jose Baez is brought on board just recently. There's another attorney that I don't know. We haven't really, he just recently brought into. His name is Patrick Karate, K-O-R-D-Y. I don't know anything about him, but I assume he'll be supporting Jose Baez. So a couple other interesting elements of this case, death penalty to death penalty is on the table right now. That is interesting.

That is interesting. Death penalty is on the table, which means a plea deal is possibly on the table. That makes things interesting. Yeah. And it means that obviously it means that the stakes are very high. So that they presumably it means that they believe they have enough evidence to make a very strong case. for the death penalty. So I think it means all those things. The other thing that's interesting, if you look at the grand jury indictments, you'll notice that every single indictment lists

Shanna Gardner and Mario together. So in other words, these are co-defendants, according to the grand jury, who worked together. In fact, let me, I'm going to read, there was a press conference held after the indictment by the state's attorney, one of the, I think she's the, I don't know, she might be the attorney. I don't know what her title is in Florida, but her name is Melissa Nelson. She made a statement at a press conference after Shanna was indicted in August, quote, Henry Tenon did not act alone, Mario Fernandez did not plan alone, and Shanna Gardner's indictment acknowledges her central and key role in the court.

cold, calculated, and premeditated murder of Jared Breitigan. I think that's really well put in the sense that she's essentially saying, these people all work together. They all knew what was going down, right? And you see that in the grand jury indictment, that they're going to be trying them together. And that, by the way, so that was the goal of Daybell too, was to try Chad and Lori together.

You know, some of that had to do with resources, but also the fact that they're co-defendants. So here, perhaps even in Daibel, you see a situation where Mario and Shana are going to be there'll be in the same room with the same jury at the same time, presumably, unless my guess is that Baez will try to sever that for obvious reasons that I would assume that Jose Baez would want them not to be tried together because there's more likelihood that Shanna could point the finger at Mario or they could point the finger at each other or whatever. So if they're together, I presume there's always the risk that Mario could turn on her or, you know, that there would be concerns about just associating those two together, I think, for Shana and probably for her attorney.

Yes. I like Kathleen's question. Dr. John, why would this elite family cover up this egregious crime? But am I jumping the gun? Because I know that's kind of like this. Yeah. Yeah, I think we're going to talk about that. Okay, Kathleen.

We'll continue to you. Yeah, that's a, right. That's the, well, thanks for- Thank you, everyone. That's our teaser. Thanks, thanks for Kathleen to getting right to the heart of the issue. So, yeah, I would expect nothing less from Kathleen than to, like, jump in with the question that is the most important question

that we're going to try to answer. Yeah, people are asking if we're going to continue sharing all these documents in our patron account. Right now we have all of Shannon and Jared's divorce documents on our patron account, patreon.com slash into crime. And as far as the other documents, I think we've shared when they're like one page or two page, we share them in our Facebook, facebook.com slash hidden two crime and any other documents we get, including the probable cause when it comes down, we will be sharing those on our Patreon account.

Absolutely. So let's start approaching Kathleen's question and see if we can get to an answer before we finish our show today. And so one of the interesting events that occurred since, the extradition, this occurred in September, was that the gardener, specifically Shelly, she's the one on the application. She filed with an attorney, with their attorney, she filed a petition for guardianship of the two children, the two twins. And we have that. One of the news outlets pointed out that there were a couple of misrepresentations in the application. And I think, think in other words, I use the term misrepresentation, but I guess the term that they used on the

news outlet was they were lying. So I don't, I don't, you know, I guess you could call it line, but let's call it line. That's what they said. So I want to, I want to talk about this because I think to really understand this case, I think if we focus on this little detail, we're going to learn a lot about this family. And the question, obviously, the question I want to answer is, is why would the gardeners lie on a guardianship application? I mean, I guess the obvious answer would be because they want the kids, right? But I mean... Okay, let's talk about the kids, yes.

This is important. They want the kids, but I think you have to look at the, you have to back up and look at the larger context to understand this, to ask why would they lie? I mean, because the problem with line on this application is that they expose themselves there's some legal peril here in terms of perjury. Right. And did you share the date of this and everything? Did you set the stage for exactly?

I was multitasking with chat. But like explain to people, I did a live about this. This has come down recently as they attempt to get full custody of Jared's twins. Right. So this occurs before extradition. This occurs. The application is filed on September 28th of 2023. The application is signed by show.

Shelly Gardner on September 22nd. And this came out since our last live. Like this news has come out. So it's an important addition to the information we have. I did go live about it when the news broke about this. But it is, this is very telling and it's very important to discuss. John and I were talking about what a big deal this is. So I'm looking at the application.

I'm on page five. there's a question here. It's question number 14. There's a sentence here, number 14, which asks about children's homes. And some of these are questions, some or not, but on 14, it says children's homes below that. During the past five years,

have any of the children lived, A, on an Indian reservation, B, outside of Washington State, C, in a foreign country, or D with anyone other than a parent. And the response to 14, again, this is notarized, the response is no. So the answer, the question is,

in the past five years of the children lived outside of Washington State, and they are saying, Shelley Gardner is saying with her attorney, that the children have been in Washington State for five years or more. That's clearly untrue. Right. They were in Florida, and this is also, keep going, you know.

Right. So number 15. Number 15 is other people with a legal right to spend time with the child. It says that this is a question, do you know of anyone besides you and the parents who has or claims to have a legal right to spend time with any of these children? and the answer, no. Let's talk about who wants to see these children.

First of, their father, their father. The question is, who else has a legal right to see the children? There's a widow, which is Kirsten. Yeah, let me say. There's a widow, Kirsten, the stepmother of these children. Right. There's paternal grandparents who live in. So the bride again, the bride, right, Jared's parents, they live in Florida.

they would obviously seem to have some legal rights. But by answering this question, no, they're essentially negating the fact that there's any other parties that can have any possible legal rights to spend time with these children. But I just want to emphasize this. Like throw out what happened to their dad. Okay. These children have been through trauma. But so has Jared's family. And so not only do they lose their dad.

They lose their stepmother. They lose their half siblings. they lose their other grandparents. They lose everybody else that they knew that was a part of their life. They lose their friends in Florida, everyone. And they are saying, no, no one else. No one else can have these kids. That's what they're concerned about with these children,

not about getting them back to some nice normalcy, even though they might say that. Like normalcy would be allowing them to see their sisters and their parents. And think about that too. And then on the other spectrum, like the parents lost, Jared's parents lost their son in the most horrendous of ways, and now they can't see their grandchildren. Right. And this is how they're responding on court documents.

Right. They're literally. And I want to know why. I've been asking John, why? Why won't they let? I mean, let's talk about lying on... Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public.

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dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at aura.com slash remove. The court documents first, but I also want to know why they would never let. Why can't other family members see these children? Yeah, well, I'll get to that.

Okay. Keep going. I interrupted you. Keep going. There's another part of this application that I need to read that's really critical here. So a part of this petition includes a section called Declaration explaining the reasons for minor guardianship. In other words, what are the reasons that you want guardianship? And this is how Shelley Gardner and her attorney explain it.

Jared Breitigan referred to as parents. one, Jared Bright again unexpectedly and tragically passed away February 2022. Think about that. Right. The way they explain this crime is that Jira just unexpectedly passed away. In other words, so what? Did he have a heart attack? Like what? I mean. Yeah, unexpectedly. Yeah. Unexpectedly. So the way they're explaining this has nothing to do with the fact that their daughter might have some involvement in the reason why Jared passed away, right? And that obviously has to be a part of this application, but they just whitewash it. Absolutely. Yeah, unexpectedly. That kind of speaks to what you were right. Unexpectedly, well, what does that mean? Like he, right, that he drown? I mean, I don't

know. Like, clearly they really want to control this narrative in the, in the Stamping Up bubble. So we've got to go back to the bubble because, I mean, this is out of touch too. Do you think people aren't going to go look this up and find out what happened. But as long as it says on your blog and your statements is it's unexpectedly, we're good. Like that's the bubble you live in. Do they think the judge would just think,

oh, okay, yeah, he unexpectedly passed away. You know, I don't know what happened. He drowned or something. Right. Like, I mean, it's, it's so ridiculous. Yeah. You know, it's so to present that narrative. But yes. So, so let's get

to this question about why would they lie? So there's serious consequences for lying on an application for guardianship, by the way, in the sense that when this, when this moves to Florida, as it will now, and the Briding and family becomes involved and have more access to the court proceedings, they can, they can certainly challenge the accuracy of that particular petition. and they can, I'm sure their attorney will ask those questions. Why did you misrepresent this information? And, you know, I've heard one attorney say that they actually can throw the whole thing out for the gardeners because of these misrepresentations.

They can dismiss it. They can throw this application out and award custody, potentially, I don't know. I'm not a lawyer, but potentially they can dismiss this application in award custody to the Briding and family. Maybe. I mean, the downside of that is the Gardner family has unlimited money and they're going to fight it and probably have to redo the petition. I don't know how this is going to work, but it's a problem. A big problem. It's a big problem.

It's a big problem. It's a big problem that apparently the gardeners felt like these details didn't matter, that they could be overlooked. But this brings us back to the question, why? Why did they lie? Why did they think this? And I mean, the most obvious explanation for me has to do with the sense of entitlement. This isn't a family that feels entitled to everything. They feel like they can buy everything.

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But I think if we dig a little deeper, you know, as a forensic psychologist who deals with people who lie all the time, clearly, and in every interview I've ever done, I think, with any felon I've ever interviewed, there's always been lying going on. And the question, of course, is why are they lying? I mean, so I think the main purpose that people, the main reason people lie is because they're trying to create an alternate reality. They're trying to create some reality that they want

rather than potentially some reality that's true. And they're trying to get, in my case during an interview, they're trying to get me to believe that reality, that they didn't commit a crime, for example, that the victim is lying, that the victim is making it up, let's say. So like in a sex crime. So they're creating an alternate reality

that benefits them. And I think part of the reason they're doing that is because that alternate reality shields them from the pain of what they've done. It shields them from something painful. I think that there's probably... And that, by the way, has to do with denial, too. that denial is largely about self-protection.

It's probably one of those prominent defense mechanisms. And I think if we dig deep enough, it seems to me that we start approaching something like shame that I think that there's probably, and this will bring us into a little more analysis of the Gardner family, by the way. Here we go. Here we go. And it's also feeling a little bit familiar to the Murdox. Yeah. Yeah, right. Exactly.

So I think line has its roots in this desire to really run away from pain, to run away from shame, to kind of create this alternative reality. And that has to do with self-protection. And not only self-protection, by the way, but this would be true of families as well. That families that experience a lot of shame are generally going to struggle with, not always, but they're generally going to struggle with creating narratives that, are very closely aligned with the situation or with facts or reality. So if that's the way to put it. So what is it, again, let's go back. Why are they lying here?

So I mean, is it, let's float some alternatives. Are they? Right. Some people are like, well, they don't want, you know, are they hiding something? Right. You know, that's a question. Are they hiding something? Are the kids know something?

But I don't know what the kids would know necessarily because I don't think the kids knew. Yeah. So I think that some of the reason they're lying is that the sense of entitlement, I think there's probably some shame underlying. You know, shame tends to create kind of obfuscation and denial. There's probably a lot of shame surrounding the fact that their daughter is even being accused of murder, right? That this is a family that's very much a perfectionistic family. And that, by the way, is kind of a classic presentation of shame, perfectionism. and I think ultimately they just there's probably a part of this family that just doesn't want to deal with this.

They don't want to acknowledge the reality. They don't want to experience and feel the shame of having a daughter who's being accused or charged with murder, right? And not just murder, but like a horrendous, I mean, all murders are bad. But the way this was done and the fact that she's murdering. the father of her two twins. I don't know. So why? Why?

Well. I agree. It's control. It's shame. But I still, like, why not let the kids see their grandparents? So I think the thing you just brought up is a possibility that maybe there's some attempt here to protect family secrets. That perhaps the twins know something that could be troublesome or problematic. You know, you know our child. He overhears everything. So who knows?

I'm wearing earphones for a reason. I'm wearing earphones for a reason. Yes. So I think there, you know, there could be some family secrets in here that maybe the kids know. I don't know, you know, that if the children were interacting with the Bridegans, that perhaps some of those would leak out. You know, that could be, that could be a possible explanation. Usually secrets are closely aligned with shame, by the way, that oftentimes will cling to secrets because we're afraid of revealing them and we feel shame around those secrets. I think another reason might be that they're lying because they, this is a family that's used to controlling the narrative and they're used to getting their way. So that has to do with entitlement again. I think also

that there's, you know, the more I think about this, I think there's almost a sense here in which there's some blaming the victim going on. Clearly. Clearly. Yeah, whatever. Can't make them deny. They're pushing back. You know, they're pushing back against the brightigans for challenging them. As I mentioned, there's probably a lot of shame around the murder charges and their daughter's actions that they simply don't want to acknowledge or address or even think about,

really. So, I mean, in a way, like this application would be an example. of pretending that nothing really happened, that Jared just unexpectedly, right? Like, there's no attempt to really explain what happened, right? That he just unexpectedly passes away as it, right? It's not just whitewashing it. It's like pretending that nothing really ever happened,

that their daughter was never arrested, that, right, that, right, there's this, complete kind of fantasy here of business as usual. Let's just stay in the stamping up bubble. Let's just pretend none of this happen. So who cares if we misrepresent a few elements of the application? It doesn't really matter. And I think another possibility is that there's some anger.

There's some lingering resentment. There's a sense of retribution. I agree with that. that Jared had the audacity to challenge them for seven years. To fight for his own children. The Jared had, yeah. Right, the Jared was willing to fight them for so long.

They're not used to that, by the way. So the Jared was, he was willing to hang in that fight, hang around in that fight for way longer than they expected. Because he's a good father and a good dad and he loved his kids. He loved his kids. Yeah, I wanted his kids around. So I think some of this potentially has to do with retribution. You know, you don't take us on at that level.

You don't fight us like this. And if you do- Go ahead. Yeah, you're thinking of the clip, right? Yeah, keep going. I didn't mean to interrupt you. And if you do, you're on a roll. Yeah.

So, right. I was thinking of a clip. I was thinking of a clip. Sweet, sweet revenge. As Shelley Gardner said, we played that. in our last video that we did on this two months ago, Shelly Gardner saying how she got even with someone who said, you have no reason you should be in business.

And she said, and then we bought us business sweet, sweet revenge, retribution. Yeah. Right. Right. How dare you try to do this. You caused this. You caused your own demise.

And now we will do what we need to do and take these children, which you should have done. Yeah, I agree. And this was, that was, that was somebody making a comment, a negative comment about their company. Think about that. This, this is deeply personal and contentious and ongoing, right? And I mean, so it's a, it's a different level of antagonism, if that's the right term. It's, so it's not even, it's not even in the league with that example.

But you can imagine how pushing back for years in this situation could create, could definitely create a certain level of anger. Certainly with Shana, perhaps maybe with their parents as well. Yeah. There's a vengeance. And also, and then you go back to the stamp in a bubble too, though, that they like to keep in having those children controls the narrative, as you say, the shame, the secrets, even if they don't know the plot to, I'm trying to be careful with my words here on the other end, if you ever notice, I've got a little visitor. It's not just YouTube. that I'm trying to watch out for. Even if these children don't know the plot or understand what happened,

they still want to feed the children, the story, the narrative that they want, the unexpected death, the whatever it is, that the gardeners are a good family. It could be as simple as that. We love you. We love your dad. We love your mother. Your mother's a great mother. Whatever this narrative is, stamping up is wonderful.

Stamping up's the best. Stamping up the best crafting company around. Whatever their narrative is, they want to make sure that these children, which they consider their legacy, because they do, you know, people wonder why I call Shanna and Eress. It's because that's what the pre-nup calls her.

I didn't pick that word. And they see their grandchildren and their children as a legacy, as heiresses and heirs to their fore. to their kingdom and they need to control this legacy and they don't need any other parent involved. I think that. But then I'll ask you, as I say, that's so strongly correct me if I'm wrong.

I think it's hard to underestimate how much these charges and this potential, these alleged crimes, this murder has the ability to disrupt this facade that this family is. built or that this idea of the perfect family. This is such a, so in that sense, I agree with you that if they, if they can have the children and control the narrative with them, then they can act as if that facade or that perfect family that they've kind of sold, that they've curated to the public through stamping up, that that family still exists. Exactly. This curated image.

And on that issue, by the way, one of our sources, so this is great. I'm going to quote one of our sources that's very close to the situation. These sources do not. Interestingly enough, by the way, none of our sources want to go on record or go public because of fear. Interesting, right? But they're all about relationships and family. They just scare everyone around them. This is the first time we've ever covered a case where our source, not a single source will go on record with us because they're afraid of the Gardner family.

and how litigious they are and how they can hurt them or hurt people. And so I don't, you know, but here we are sticking our necks out. So, but anyway, this is a quote from a source that said, quote, with the Gardner family, everything is a facade, a Potemkin village. Everything is staged. I love that idea of a Potemkin village. For those who don't know what that is, it's, it's, think of like a Hollywood set that, that, you know, how in Hollywood they'll build like a, there's no building.

It's just like the front of a building to present the appearance of being a beautiful building when there's nothing behind it. So it's literally a mirage. And it's usually a facade to make everything look normal and perfect. So Potemkin villages were actually, I think the term comes from Russia when I forget the exact details. but it originates from Russia. But the idea is that what you see is not the reality. That if you knock down, if you're looking at a Potemkin,

if you're looking at a Hollywood set and the building is actually held up by two by fours and you hit it, it'll fall over in an instant. It has no stability. It has no foundation, right? It's not a real home. Right, right. And so, you know, another piece of this is that stamping up, the business, which made this family their fortune, is really built on that facade.

That it's, there's this idea that if other people, how could I put this? That if you engage, if you engage with the stamping up community, that number one, I suppose, you can become rich. like the Gardner family. So I guess they hold out that promise. And the other is that you also can have the perfect family and the perfect life that they're trying to present to you. As I say, it's always about relationships. Relationships are the most important thing.

Yeah, on that issue. So after Shannon was arrested, I'm just going to read a bit of this. This was part of the Gardner's statement to the public and to their demonstrators. We read some of this on pre-examination. previous episodes, but, quote, this is from Shelley and Sterling Gardner, quote, words cannot accurately express the depth of our sadness. Family is our top priority. Let me repeat that.

Family is our top priority. We love our daughter, our focused on supporting her and our entire family as we help our grandchildren navigate this difficult and very confusing time. That was a really well-written thing by their PR firm. Oh, and this also has the bit about, let me continue, actually. So for their sake and all involved, we caution against further speculation and request privacy as the legal process runs its course. So don't speculate. Don't discuss this case because that may impinge upon the bubble. So when they say family first, they mean protecting all family members at all cost, even if it means keeping their twins from people who love them.

I mean, what is it when they say family? first. I have a hard time understanding that. So they think, you know, getting a really, really expensive defense attorney is putting family first and telling everyone not to talk about this and keeping it in a stamping up bubble. But to me, family first would be like, okay, how do we bring everyone together? How do we make amends? I don't know. I mean, what, tell me, yeah, what are you thinking when you see this? I'm thinking self-protection. I'm thinking that, you know, I mean, I understand the need to, I, I, I, I think that there's definitely some threat to the stamping up bubble and perhaps the stamping up dynasty, which has made this family hundreds of millions of dollars.

And to people, yes, it is an MLM. People keep asking in chat. Is it an MLM? Stamping Up is an MLM. It is run by demonstrators. And I like what Curiouser and Curious are stated, their family first. We put our family first. Right. No, not the family. Not the family that encompasses all of their demonstrators. No, not that family. Right. I think that, again, I'm being repetitive here, but I think that this charge is so disruptive to this bubble and to this family that's, you know, that I think it was so unexpected and so disruptive that they're having trouble coping with it. And it doesn't matter how good your PR firm is. You know, you still have this huge thorn in your side. It's not going away. Have they always had thorns, though? I mean, I think that's what you're saying,

maybe this entire facade is a thorn. Maybe there's been a thorn in this company and this family that's never gone away. I mean, how did we even get here? Yeah, how do you get there? Well, let's go back to Murdoch and what we talked about with Murdoch. So I'm sure a lot of our listeners were not there for us when we did Murdoch. So bear with us here. but I think this starts with the origin story in the Gardner family.

We talked about this in our previous episodes, but just to reiterate, so the story is that Shelley was what, a nanny. A teenager, a babysitter. She was a babysitter for Sterling, who was married at the time. And Sterling apparently took a liking to her and ended up getting divorced and married Shelly. I don't remember how they met when she was younger, right? There's a lot of people.

They got married older. They got married when she was not a minor when they got married. Okay. So whether there's infidelity there, I don't know. Some people we talked to said, yes, there was. So it really depends on who you ask. But some people will say that Shell sued Sterling. Sterling pursued her.

We don't know exactly what's accurate with that. We just shared the story the way we heard it. Yeah. But we don't look. Yes. Of course it's on both of them. Or in some way Sterling was more responsible. But we don't know what happened.

So we can't say who we don't know. We don't know the exact details. But the repercussion of that is that you had a marriage that Sterling was in with children that was destroyed by. somebody in this case, Shelly, coming into the system and tearing apart the family. So Sterling obviously played a role like he could have said no to her and he kept his family intact. So it's a reciprocal decision. But my larger point here is that the origin story of this family begins with a family being torn apart. And then you have the same family

is the most important priority, that family is everything to them. So in other words, you have this tremendous hypocrisy. You have a couple Sterling and Shelling professing to value family above all else, but they had no problem destroying Sterling's family at the time. So in some ways, like Murdoch, like the Murdoch family, which the story there essentially is that one of the original patriarchs of the Murdoch family, more than likely it appears committed suicide. And so that suicide then becomes a financial.

financial windfall for the Murdox and really sets the stage for their entire dynasty. But nobody in that family is willing to acknowledge that it was a suicide. And nobody in that family was willing to acknowledge the trauma and the grief involved in that suicide. And I think here, in a way, the origin story begins with a lie. And that lie is that family matters above all else. And yet you're destroying a family in the process of professing that value. Yes.

At the very least, it's hypocrisy. Yes. And I think that when you do that, you're really setting the stage for problems later on in terms of, that's not to suggest that you can't make that relationship work or that the family isn't built on a strong foundation. But there has to be a certain amount of shame involved in that decision of destroying another family. I would think, in fact, and there's a big secret there too, right? it's not talk. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet,

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theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today at ORA.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at ora.com slash remove. About openly, I'm going to actually read something from, this is from John Bradshaw's book. It's called Family Secrets. John Bradshaw is, he was a well-known social worker

who wrote a lot about shame. He did a number of shows for PBS. He's, he's sort of, he, I think of John Bradshaw as kind of the pre-Brenny Brown in the sense that John Bradshaw was writing like in the 80s and 90s, before Bernie Brown. He was talking about similar issues. He brought a certain amount of depth and insight, I think,

although he was writing for a popular audience. He's an interesting writer. I think he's done a good job with his material. But this is from Bradshaw, Family Secrets. This is page 30. He's talking about shame here and family secrets. So this could apply to individuals or families both. Quote, Bradshaw, page 30.

Toxic shame is at the root of many dark secrets. Toxic shame forces us to literally lose face and then to try and save face. In order to save face, we go into hiding and isolation. We seek ways to always be in control. We guard lest we ever be caught off guard. We live covering up our pain. This requires an arsenal of secrets.

We have secrets to cover secrets and lies to cover other lies. toxic shame effects not just our doing but our very being. Deep down, we feel like something that's very wrong with us. Toxic shame demands that I wear a mask, put out a disguise, and develop a false self. If I were to let you see me as I really am, you would see that I am flawed and defective and reject me. I'm going to point out, by the way, so on page 31 through 34 of this book, he lists all the possible elements shame in families. And I circled some that I thought would be relevant to the gardeners.

So these are just, these are just, this is just a quick assessment of, of potential sources of shame in the gardener family. Whatever is judged to be sinful would be shameful. Using a religious facade for sex money or power, leaving a faith, such as the LDS faith, mental illness, substance abuse of any kind, eating disorders, A false self, self-esteem issues, perfectionism, righteousness, money addiction, work addiction, living off of one's parents, and the loss of a family's good name. Continuing on, other sources of toxic shame potentially in the Gardner family.

Murder, a hitman, imprisonment, repression of emotions, stealing ideas, intellectual property, and plagiarism, violation of one's own moral values. multiple marriages, betrayal and affairs, abandonment fares, and engulfment fears. So those are potential sources of shame, I think, in this family. Let's get back to this origin story and how that's relevant to shame. So this first element here is a potential source of shame, whatever is judged to be sinful, right? My guess is, I don't know if in their particular faith, I'm not sure how breaking up a family would be perceived as a good, right?

Right. Right. In some ways, in their faith, I think that in some ways, this family begins, I don't know, this isn't the term I would normally use, but I'm using Bradshaw's ideas, that it begins in a way with the sin. And so you, a sin at least in their culture. And so you have this foundation of the family that begins in shame. It begins with this potential sin.

and again, that would be from their perspective. And that's how this all starts out. Yeah. And then, of course, unless that's talked about or dealt with openly, then it just continues to perpetuate itself. And it accrues and it has a ripple effect like it did with the Murdox. Here we're talking about a couple generations there. We were talking about three or four generations.

So this is more self-contained than that. But I definitely think that you see elements of that shame being passed down. You certainly see it with Shanna. And in fact, one of the mission companions told us that Shanna was a compulsive liar, that she lied about everything. And that's interesting, right, in the sense that this little lie on this petition for guardianship is being mimicked by other. members of this family as you start going down, right, the family tree or you start looking at

other generations, that you see some of this obviously spill over into other family members. And you see this intense need to kind of protect the family and protect their secrets and to keep things perfect and to curate this image of perfectionism. Right. And so why would they lie? I mean, I don't know if I've answered it, but hopefully. I've hopefully I've gotten closer. Yes.

Doreen, you ask if we can explain the MML bubble a bit. I recommend we cover that in detail on a past episode. I think it was our second episode on this. Perhaps some people can lead you to it because we talk all about that. Thank you, John. Thank you. Such wise words. Does that help?

Did I answer Kathleen? Yes. You just answered it. You just went full circle. You just answered Kathleen's question. Okay. Why? Yeah.

Someone said, I can't find it now, but I know who it was. It said it. So I'm looking. I said, you see, and this is someone closely following this case. And they said, you see, I don't, they said, I don't know if the gardeners do think that Shanna's done anything sinful or if she's done anything wrong. I don't know if she's speaking, you know, in their brains or if they think that she's innocent. I wasn't quite sure. But I do want to say this.

In everything I see, I feel like they are, you know, we. learned from a source that after Mario was arrested and charged, they made sure that someone in the family was in Washington every day, every week, every moment, as they prepared for Shanna to be arrested so that the children wouldn't go to social services. To me, that's, they certainly knew. And I'm sorry to bring that up, but I know it's a little off topic, but we're just getting into some questions. But did they know? Maybe I should just ask, did they know? Do they know? Do they know what Shana has done? Do they believe that she has done something sinful? Sinful as in a Christian. They're a Christian family. So sinful's relevant here. Right. Exactly. And Bradshaw, in the book I

just read, he actually lumps that particular source of shame under the category of related to the sacred. So there are certain sources of shame that he sees as being related to the sacred or religion, you know, religion based. But what you just said, I think that does relate. to potentially relate to what they know or what they might have known or what they did know about the crimes that it seems to me that you're not going to have family members staying at a residence knowing that someone might get arrested all the time unless right unless you have unless you have some belief that it was coming yeah right but again i mean getting arrested is different from do they believe that she committed the crime

that's a different issue, I think. Right, right. But this is an interesting question. It might be a whole other episode, but if there's something you could say, are there any differences or similarities to Shanna's family versus how Ruby Frankie's sisters are reacting? Curious, if you have anything to say about that?

Wow, that's a really interesting question because I believe we haven't done an episode on Ruby Frankie, by the way. That's in the work still. But let me just comment that the, Ruby Frankie family was very similar in the sense that they were also creating this facade of perfectionism, that they were also kind of curating this image of their family as the perfect Mormon family. And so I think there's similarities in the sense that we've learned from a lot of sources,

not least of whom is Carl Crusher. And we didn't talk to Carl Crusher, but if you go look at some of his videos, he talks about some really deep, dark secrets going on in the Frankie family. And so behind this facade, there's a lot of behavior that would be in with, I'm sure within their particular faith that would be considered sinful. Yeah. For those that haven't seen the Carl Crusher video. And I don't mean his news interviews. He's done some interviews as well on the news because he clearly knew the Ruby and all of her siblings.

But yeah, it's a pretty shocking. We don't have time to get into all that. But I will say this, that I think the Frankie family understood that they needed to cultivate this image of the perfect family in order to monetize what they were doing on YouTube. And I think you have a similar dynamic with stamping up. And that's not to say that the Gardner family doesn't try to be perfect in their own way. Like I think there's a part of them that wants to be in that bubble. Absolutely. They like the bubble.

They're continuing the bubble. And in their own mind's eye, I think that they perceive that they're doing good, and perhaps they are to some degree. I don't know. But I think they understand that this type of behavior from one of their family members is not a good reflection. It doesn't represent them well. And they understand that there's risks to the bubble here.

And the Frankie's would have understood that as well. That there's certain behaviors that that family was engaging in off-camera that were, and maybe on camera, some people would argue on camera as they progressed more towards child abuse. But certainly off camera, there seemed to be some really heinous actions occurring. And that's unexpected, even beyond what they did to the children, even, some other things too. Yeah, go ahead.

But nothing approaching murder, by the way. No, no. But still, similar dynamic. Right. somebody else wrote but does this family even feel shame that's kind of a loaded question too i'm giving you a loaded questions it's not that they're walking around feeling shame maybe just kind of explain that what what the motive is behind shame and what that means so shame avoidance it's not there it's so shame creates a problem because it's avoided people don't people typical healthy people will

feel shame. Unhealthy people will not feel shame in the sense that the response to shame, the unhealthy response to shame is avoidance of the feeling of shame. And it's acting out in unhealthy ways, those feelings of shame. So healthy people will experience shame and they'll be able to convey that and express it. Unhealthy families and people cannot deal with the shame. And so the point here, I think, is that if I'm correct about some of this underlying shame and entitlement and the things we talked about tonight, that most of this is an avoidance of it. The line on the application,

the line on the application is an avoidance of an issue that they prefer not to really look at or feel or deal with. Yeah. Thank you for explaining that. Right. So, and they avoid that through making a lot of money. Someone else said, it's not shame, it's greed. That comes with it, you know,

focusing on this, the bubble that they enjoy, avoiding these feelings of shame. Well, again, getting back to Bradshaw, so that was one of the sources of shame that I identified that I just read was money addiction and work addiction. And I think those would both apply to the Gardner family, that those are sources of shame in the sense that they're, as you just said, they're an avoidance of shame. So people will work too much or they'll seek to make a ton of money to have the capacity to avoid feeling shame because that's what they don't want to experience. Right. Thank you. Any other, let me just see if there's anything else we need to respond. A lot of people are asking about Carl. I just sent his YouTube page. Okay. Yeah. Tara, Tara Wells mentions this. Sterling was a mission president. They are an LDS mission president. They are an LDS family. They're not just a family that is very successful in their MLM. They're a family that is successful in their church. And in being a very perfect LDS family, shan. Anna left the church. You know that. Jared was a member, remained a devoted member.

But she's mentioning that Sterling was a mission. That's a very prominent leadership position in the church. This just adds more to shame or the need to look perfect. And let's just talk about crafts. Crafts is about curating the perfect image. You've brought this up before. You've already brought it up tonight. But their company is about curating an image.

The perfect birthday card or scrapbook page, their callings and their leadership positions in the LDS church and being good Christian, you know, people where this, their entire relationship started with infidelity and, you know, breaking up a family, as you point out. Yeah. Infidelity, we don't know for sure. But people have said that, but we, you know, we hear different versions of the story. So.

Yes. Yes. So the shame is buried. Yes. So what next? I mean, so we covered, yeah, and that's something, too, I wanted to bring up. We have heard from a really, another reliable source that the moment Mario was arrested for, how long was it before Shanna was arrested after Mario?

You have the timeline memorized. Was it like? Mario is arrested in March of 2023 and March. Chana, Shana's not arrested until August of 2023. Okay, so we're talking four months, four months. Five months. someone in the Gardner family was flying and in Washington, they just rotated to make sure someone was there because they were preparing. They knew it was coming. And that's an interest to

me too. Like I understand wanting to be there for children to make sure they don't go to a foster home. But there again, to me it feels more like a control tactic. If they went, someone could be there and rush to get the children. To me, it feels about control again. Well, and what about that the Henry tenant arrest in August of 2022? He wasn't arrested for anything to do with the murder of Jared Bridegan. Right. He was arrested for unrelated charges and all of a sudden, Shanna is distanced herself from Mario. She's moving to a different state within a month.

I mean, why would she do that? What does she know? What does she know? Right? And there's other questions here. I mean, after the murder in February of 2022, why is the family not helping to find the killer? Why are they not talking about it? Why are they not devoting any resources?

They've got unlimited resources for, I mean, compared to most of us, compared to normal human beings, this family has huge resources that they could utilize to help find the so-called killer. or what about the surveillance video with the truck? They knew the truck, presumably that belonged to the killer. It turned out it did. Why didn't they devote any resources to investigating who on the truck? I mean, I know law enforcement should take the lead on that, but in a family like this, if they're really invested in figuring it out, they can figure it out.

They can. Why is the family staying on the sidelines and not doing anything after his murder? If Shanna has no involvement, then they shouldn't be afraid. They shouldn't be getting a PR firm. They shouldn't be concerned when Henry Tenon is arrested. In fact, quite the opposite, right? If they're so convinced of her innocence, then help. Commit.

Right. To Sherry who said, man, I'm just going to own up to all my mistakes and announce them so I don't end up like these people. I want to say amen to that too. I do the same thing. Just own it. That's what I always say. Own it.

Just be who you are. Yes. I agree. I agree. Cici, thank you. Thank you. Appreciate the extra time this week. Enjoyed dinner.

Thank you, C.C. Thank you to all our mods. We were able to do a little bit extra time today because we're not rushed to make sure our babysitter gets home in time. He's sleeping soundly on the couch. So. But to those who added to the babysitter fund tonight, Thank you. We will take him out to a nice dinner. John's mom is actually in the hospital right now.

So he is without his wife and we will take him to get some food. And yes, my son is here with his tablet and his earphones and he's good. The babysitter's happy, getting some needed rest. And all this time, you're able to do a little extra. All this time I was worried about our babysitter, grandpa being too loud. But so, so it's turns out I'm more concerned about the loudness related to loud snoring rather than speaking too loudly. So I don't hopefully, I haven't heard him snoring, so I think we're okay. Yes, I think we're good.

I think we're going to wake him up and he's going to think we still have our show to do. Yeah. He probably will. True. Yes. Thank you, everyone for caring about John's mother. John is a dedicated son.

and she is in good hands right now because of John. I love how you take care of your parents. So let's go get your dad some food. Thank you, everyone. There are some really great questions coming in. Thank you, Jems, for being here. Let me just scan really quickly. Well, let's see if there's anything else.

And if there's anything else, you'd like to end on, John. This is going to be a case, everyone, that we are going to be following long term. So let people know, share these links. It's also very interesting to me. I will say this. This case is very much known as the Microsoft exec case because Jared Bridigan was indeed a Microsoft executive. He was working hard to support four children and a wife who they had a very loving relationship

from what we can tell. And his life was cut short. But we find it interesting that stamping up is rarely, rarely mentioned, despite them, you know, financially supporting the entire defense and being such a big part of this. case. Stamping up's important to talk about. So I'm glad we can talk about it here and I'm glad all of you are here. I'll just go over some of the last final things. Yes. Exactly. Let's turn to the Stamping up case, right? Right. Yes. If they're funding the defense, let's let them own this case. I don't think Microsoft is funding any part of this case. So not that I'm aware of. I did want to end with

When you're done, I want to end with a few, just a final thought or quote. You're always more profound than I am. So let me see if there's anything else to say and I'll let you end. I can't add, I can't end with my concerns about grandpa snoring too loudly. So let me, let me see if I can. Well, I can always put it on you. You're good. Oh, that's true.

Yes. So this is a quote from Robert Bly. Robert Bly is known for writing poetry. I believe he's deceased now, but he's a well-known American poet. He's probably most famous for a book he wrote called Iron John. But anyway, Robert Bly, here's what he says about his family. He says, quote, as children, my brother and I were asked to keep a secret. And the secret we were asked to keep was that it was not a happy house.

I wanted to read that quote because I'm not sure there's such a thing as a perfectly happy, perfect family. And that's okay. Right. Like if you're so invested in being portraying yourselves as a very happy perfect family, I think that's a problem. That's a potential. That has a lot of potential to create a family culture of shame. And so I think, you know, unfortunately in a lot of these cases, we see these families that, really try to present themselves is completely happy all the time, completely perfect,

flawless, and it's just not a realistic perception. Life is not going to hand you happiness all the time on a planner. That's not how it works. But hopefully we can find happiness, certainly with the right people and the right moments and the right situations. And I think that, for me, that's enough. And I cherish those moments. but I never have the expectation that things are perfect or they're going to be perfect.

Thank you, babe. Appreciate it. I appreciate also spending the Saturday night with you and with our gems. Thank you, everyone for joining us. Thank you. Thanks, everyone. Thanks. Until next Saturday.

We'll see you. Okay. Good night. Good night. Hello, Hidden Jems. It's Lauren with Hidden a True Crime podcast. As a TV reporter, I learned the art of visual stories. telling. So if you're like me, you enjoy listening, but also viewing. You can actually head to our

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