Hidden True Crime - Surviving the I-5 Serial Killer & Breaking Her Silence

Episode Date: September 29, 2024

Find out the easiest way to get to sleep, and stay asleep when you click https://shopbeam.com/hiddentruecrime and use code TRUECRIME to get up to 35% at checkout. About Hidden True Crime: Lauren Matthias was a television reporter for a decade and has followed the Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell case since 2019. She and her husband, Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, Hidden Gems. I am here with a very special guest today, a survivor, aptly named a survivor, who the two of us have been talking for a while. You yourself are a hidden gem and reached out with a story. that I couldn't believe. And she has shared more with me. And you are now ready to tell a story that happened to you decades ago for the first time. And so I want to first off, thank you for your bravery and coming forward.

I know that this is difficult for you. And this has been years and years of wondering when would be the right time. So thank you for sharing it with us today. and I say that we start from the very beginning, if that's okay. Yes, okay. Back when you were 11 years old, am I right? That is right. In 1973, I was 11th, and it was the winter,

and I was spending the night with my little friend who lived in the neighborhood. We had a wonderful neighborhood full of kids. everybody was always outside playing always something to do safe doors open all day long never locked but this day i was spending the night and there were three of us girls at this sleepover and it was winter so about three o'clock in the afternoon the three of us wanted to go to the store and get some candy and my friend's mother said, okay, just be home before dark. And we, you know, I'm looking back at it now. This was something we shouldn't have done. We shouldn't have left the house at 3 o'clock when it gets dark at 4.30. Okay. Because this is in Washington State. Yes. Okay. Yes.

The location is wanting to drive of Baffle, Washington. And so we headed out. We thought we could make it to and from the grocery store, get some candy, no problem. So we go off, and there were three different ways we could go. Today, we thought we needed to take the shortcut. So we'd walk down the street and up the street, and then we got to a field, and this was a field that was next in a new shopping center. Nothing had been built on this field yet. So it was graded but there was tall shrubbery that covered the field and there was a well-worn path through this field to the store okay everybody used it the shortcut yeah yes so we you know I'm sure you know as every time we took it we felt a little nervous about it but we ran through we got through to the

parking lot oh we made it to the grocery store so we go into the store at the time it was the Thriftway. We got our candy and we came back out and we went to the head of the trail. And it was just, it was almost dusk, pretty dusky. And it was just like, like wall. I just felt this immediate wall. And we all stopped dead in our tracks. And we looked over and there was a man standing by a tall shrub. And he said, oh, look, there's a pretty bunny. And I know for myself, I was paralyzed.

I wasn't going to move, but one of my friends ran over and to see the bunny. Was he holding the bunny or just pointing? No, there probably wasn't a bunny. It's very common for people who lure to say, a cute little puppy in the car. Right. Can see it, please. Exactly.

So he said, look, here's a bunny. Young people, don't ever fall for that. Okay, so she ran right over and he grabbed her very quickly and held a knife to her neck and told her that if we didn't go with him, he was going to kill her. So we started walking with him down the trail. It was a flat trail down the path. And he took us to a clearing. And my memory is very sketchy. I'll tell you what I do remember.

He told us all to take our clothes off. So there are three of us, and we're all taking our clothes off. And I do remember standing naked, the three of us. I remember him walking over to one of the girls who was very petite. I was 11, but she was tiny, you know, very petite. And I remember him touching her breasts and being a little irritated, to be honest, probably because there wasn't much there. So I've always said it. She was still a child.

She was the same age as me, but small. Yeah. And in height and everything. I don't remember a thing after that until I'm on the ground and he's on top of. me. I have absolute no memory. When he was on top of me, he was just trying to get in me. The memory is I'm on the ground. He's trying to get in me. And I squeezed myself really tight. So I guess I was fighting back. Years later, I would have flashbacks about that thing. And in my flashback, it would be him stabbing me because he got angry. So I, and I would tell myself,

why did you do that? He could have killed you. But now I think of it as that was pretty brave at that little 11 year old little girl. It's pretty brave. So he didn't get in me and the next thing I remember is him

kind of being frustrated and getting up and off he went down the trail towards the parking lot. So the three of us stood for a few minutes don't remember getting up. I guess we were standing. You have told us to get up.

I really don't know. But we waited a few minutes. Oh, sorry. Before he left, he told us, if you ever tell anyone, I know where he live, I'll kill your family and I'll kill you. Don't ever tell anyone. So off he went to the parking lot

and we let a couple of minutes go by before we realized maybe he's not coming back. So we put our clothes on. And we put on everything but our underwear. We each grabbed a pair of undies and we headed down the trail to the parking lot, back to the grocery store, not down the longer trail through the woods. We weren't that out. He didn't pull us too far off the parking lot.

In other words, you probably put your clothes on so quickly just to reiterate that you guys weren't worried about your underwear. And so you grabbed it after the fact. Crazy. And the three of us all did it. I mean, I don't think anyone said. Don't put on your underwear, but none of us did. Kind of odd, isn't it? We all did the same thing, but we clutching our undies, went back to the parking lot,

and we went back to wanting to drive, walk down wanting to drive a little bit, into the entrance of our neighborhood, down my street. And that's the girls dropped me off. I lived, we went to my house first. They lived on a street over. And the two of them went up the street and around the corner to go home. Did you have a conversation about whether to tell somebody or not? Yes.

Thank you. Yes, as we walked home, we promised each other. We would never tell anyone. We were adamant. No, we will never tell anybody. Thank you for reminding me about that. So I went into the house and it was dark. So it's probably only maybe 530.

I mean, you know, dusk in the winter is 4.30 where we live. And, you know, this probably took a half hours from 5.15 or so, but nobody, my mom wasn't home from work. My parents had gotten divorced the year before. So my mom was still at work. She hadn't gotten home yet. And I went in the house and I went upstairs and I went into her bedroom and I locked the door and I went into her bathroom and I got into her bathtub and I took a bath and while I was still in the bath she came home and she came into the bathroom and said what are you doing here because we were supposed to be having this lumber party and I just started screaming started screaming at the top of my lungs and she didn't you know no words came out so she she got on the phone to one of my friends

And that mother said my friend had just told her too. We just couldn't keep that in. Yeah. I did come to her attention that at some point that one of the girls' parents did not believe her when they did find out. She did not go home and tell her parents. This third girl. Yes. Okay.

She kept the secret and she ended up telling someone else and they told the parents and then the parents were upset. At some point, and I don't know how long of me, I mean, I don't know if my parent, my mom got on the phone and called the police. I don't remember them coming to her house, but I do remember that at some point we're all down at the King County Police Department in downtown Seattle. Kenmore was just a truck stop back then. It's actually part of Baffle now. and much more developed. But back then, I'd go all the way down town Seattle. We went into the police department.

And we had to, and I feel like we were together. Again, this is my memory, and I'm not 100%, but I feel like we were all there. I feel like we were taken and kind of separated. I know we each had an interview separately by a detective. We were shown mug books, and that may have been separate. We're together. And then a rape kit was done.

At some point, probably I don't know the timing of all of this, but at some point soon after, I'm sure, a social worker took, and again, I feel like it was the three of us, but I'm not 100% about that. I know one of the girls remembers going, I think, but I'm sorry. Anyway, go down, she took us to Pike Place Market and to a deli. And we, I'd never been to a deli before and we had, I had soup and it would be a soup today. I would love full of vegetables and kind of creamy and wonderful. But at the time, I was like, what is this? And I may have taken a bite or two, but I didn't know what it was. It was just a complete, odd experience, the whole thing going with this woman.

I didn't know. After that, and again, I don't know. how long this took. It wasn't long. It wasn't like they left, they did, it wasn't like they took our case and investigated it at some point very soon after the initial this initial time to the police department and his social worker. And again, I feel like I was called to the police station and told this by a detective with my mom. The detective said, we do not believe you. we think you're making this up. We've interviewed all three of you.

You all have different stories. And we're going to close the case. That happened this day, the day, or later? This is after. So it was a process. We went down the first day. I don't even, I can't tell you even for sure if the mug shots, the rape kit, and the interview were all on the same day.

Right. Just not clear in my mind. I remember doing them. But you remember all of these things. Yes. And I remember social worker and the food. I can't remember if we were all three together when we did these things with the mug shots. But I feel like maybe we were.

I know all three of us went through the process. Right. And so there was this investigation that you knew that was ongoing, but then all of a sudden. It seemed to be pretty quickly. I mean, I bet you, I have no idea I wish I could get into my file, but as a juvenile, it's probably sealed and I don't really know for sure if I could get into it. Believe me, I thought about it. It would be nice. It would be nice to know if my rape kit is sitting on the shelf down in the King County Police Department with all the other unprocessed rape kits from the last 75 years.

Because there are lots of them. And one thing I would say about that is that I know that police or, excuse me, King County is working on rape kit backlog. They've been able to attribute a lot of insult murders because of the rape kits and the DNA. They're assigning them to a murderer now. So I'm happy about that. But I don't think they take rape as seriously as they do murder. you know, in their minds, you survived. So you really aren't a victim.

So, you know, I really, to be honest with you in my mind, I feel like this was a matter of a month or two of that. Okay. All of a sudden, I just remember, that's it. It's over. And I was. You're lying. You guys are lying.

Your stories are different and your work closed in your case. You're lying and we're going to do nothing. And your case is closed. So, you know, I've never been called a liar before. I think that had a big impact on me. But we go on and from that moment on, we never played together again. The small girl was my best friend. I played with her every day.

We played at each other's houses. We lived in the same neighborhood. And we never played together. ever again. To this day, I have never spoken to her. Since they closed the case? Probably since the event happened, we interacted during the times that we had to with the police department, but definitely once it was close. I didn't ever play with anyone in my neighborhood again. My friends that I went to at that point are my friends today. They're my best friends.

and they're my sisters. So it was a good thing, but it ruined something really special, you know. So I go on and in my home, we never spoke of it ever again. I never had any kind of treatment. No one ever asked me how it was. And I'll tell you how it was. I was considered the scapegoat in the family, I'm sure. I know I was.

I've just recently discovered what that means. I was the scapegoat. I was the one who saw dishonesty when it was there, and I called it out. I was the one who saw when things were wrong, and I was the one to say something about it, and I was a very emotional child after this. Of course. My mom called me her happy pill when I was like. little and little before this. After this, I became someone who felt sorry for herself. So I'm feeling

sorry for yourself. I was very emotional, of course, hyper-vigilant on with that. I did, I will talk about the things because I've been thinking about them lately. So I went through bed wedding after this. I would wake up in the middle of the night, my screaming for my mom, and she would come in and my bed would be all wet and she would get me up and i mean i'm 11 years old she would get me up she would make sure i got my new pajamas on lay a towel down on my bed and tuck me back in and the next day washed my sheets i also had nosebleeds i had terrible nosebleeds i'd wake up in the middle of the night with nosebleeds you know pouring out of my know. So she would come in and she would also, she would get ice from the kitchen and towels

and hold the ice on up here on my nose so that my nose would clot. So she would care for you. So she was caring for you, but not addressing why. I think my, I don't believe my family ever believed me. I think they thought, I think they believe the police. I think, you know, something I hadn't mentioned you, Lauren. My parents were divorced a year before. And this is something I've rarely talked about. But I was so embarrassed when my parents divorced that I, and the neighborhood being such a big neighborhood and everybody's parents, nobody had gotten divorced. In 1972, they got divorced. Right. Nobody got divorced in 1972. And then not in my neighborhood. And I was very embarrassed and I did tell a lie I told a lie to my friends they'd say where's your dad and I'd say

I use the story of another friend whose dad was working for Boeing and working in Europe I said he's he's he did work for Boeing but he wasn't working in Europe and I told that lie so I didn't have to tell him I was so embarrassed and I carried that lie and that secret right up until this so you know I've been thinking like Well, maybe my mom talked to my friend's mom and my friend's mom found out my parents. I mean, obviously they're now talking. Right. And my friend's mom must have said something about my dad working in Europe. And mom's like, no, we've been divorced since last year.

So maybe that's where the idea of the liar came up. I really don't know. But that was a lie. It was because I was so ashamed at that point. of you but this other story was not a lie. This involved three people. This was terrible.

But maybe that's why my mom just chose to believe that I made it up. It was probably easier for her to believe that I made it up. It was never, even when I did my researching later, which I'm going to talk about in a minute. And my mom was still alive until three years ago. I never once spoke about this. I've done all this research. I knew who I thought did it. And I never told her.

I haven't. That is a question for a therapist. Why, when I had the chance, did I not talk to her about this? Yeah. But I went on to be the over-emotional person who everything was kind of always blamed on me because I was the one causing the trouble. If anything, anything going on in a family that wasn't quite, kosher.

I was going to say it. And I was quite a bit. A lot of things went on. Just family things would embarrass me. Yeah. And I would call people out on it. Makes sense. And you likely had PTSD at this point.

And we can talk with this. Yeah. So it would only make sense. So. Went from being a happy pill to being someone who felt sorry for herself all the time. So I grew up. And, you know, I was telling you before how I really didn't think about it anymore. It kind of went away.

Those weren't my friends. There wasn't in my face, you know, my new friends didn't know anything about it. And I could go just be me. And we were having lots of fun. They'd come home to my house on a bus. And I'd go to their house on the school bus. They'd come home with me on the school bus. Junior high, great, everything's fine.

high school. I don't remember. I just, it's almost like it went out of my mind and I didn't, it wasn't a real thing for me. I wasn't part of my, like it is right now, like it has been, actually for probably about nine years now, just right in my face. It wasn't like that. So, but when John Bonnet Ramsey went, when, do you remember John Bonnet Ramsey? Of course, yes. So yes, yes, I'm a young mom. I have three little boys. It's the 1996, I think it is, that was my very first panic attack that has an adult. You know, growing up in high school and everything, I was kind of, I was again, overly sensitive, very overly sensitive.

Could get my feelings hurt very easily by anyone. So that was a struggle. But this day, I just, I remember being in the hallway and I was holding my son, who was the youngest, the little baby and I just start screaming and I was hysterical when my husband had he didn't know anything about it and he said to me I'm going to call your mom I was like no don't call why I wish I would have had and call her and let her know that I was struggling but no I was going to carry this burden on my own you know this was mine you haven't even told your husband this was your secret nobody knew not one person outside my family other than the other girls that happened to wow no it's

really hard to carry a secret like that it'll eat you up takes all your energy just to feel normal so with that at some point soon after that is when I told him and as a young mom and he's even as a mom and older with older kids and even now as a grandma with young kids, I'm really hyper aware, hypervigilant and hyper aware. And I, because I didn't know that the reason I was that way was because I was struggling with PTSD, I just thought it was just part of me and I just hated that part of me. Why can it just be like everybody else? You know, why do I have to be paranoid, you know? I don't look at it that way because I realized that it was PTSD now and I know that's a symptom of PTSD.

So it actually takes the guilt and the shame away. I am that person. That's a part of me. I can't, I can learn to control it and I think I do pretty well now. But when you don't know that's what you have and you're just this way, you just think it's who you are. I even became a scapegoat in my own family with my husband and my kids. It was always me causing all the trouble. Kids are running around in their plane.

I had three little boys under five and then seven years after the youngest boy, I had a daughter. But it was three little boys. And when things got really wild around the house, you know, for one thing, I had a hard time tolerating the noise. You know, and I spent a lot of time just going back to my bedroom being alone. I didn't know why I was that way. I'm not antisocial. I'm really very friendly. And I love people and I live talking to people.

But I couldn't tolerate the noise and the chaos. And that's another symptom of PTSD. So I just thought I was a bad person. You know, so I lived as a scapegoat in my family here too for a long time. It was really important to me when I found out who had done this. But I tell my children so that. that they could understand me. I understand me a lot better now.

I understand why I am that way and why I was, even though it doesn't take away the guilt that I feel for freaking out a lot. You know, you're a young mom you have a bunch of kids running around. We ran a business out of her home. I was doing the office work.

My husband was doing the construction. And it was a lot of, pressure and it was just what I did and I did it for almost 20 years and it was really hard for me it was really hard I can't imagine that you did it that long just you know I can't imagine holding that secret in and being oh caring is the worst thing think about it I bet most of us have a secret as my husband Dr. John says you are a sane or as sick as the secrets you keep absolutely get those secrets out The secret is not as scary as you think it is.

What's worse is what it's doing to your life. So what I will move on to is the next part, nine years ago. And at this point, had you told anyone or where are you nine years ago? Yes, I have told my two best friends. My two best friends that I told probably maybe even soon after I told my husband when it was in the late 90s. Okay. Okay. Still had never openly talked about it in my family.

We've traveled with my mom, my sister, my aunts, my uncles. And does your husband and best friends believe you when you shared? Absolutely. Absolutely. So, you know, you're realizing that people are believing you, you know? Oh, yes. But I was still, I was, I still had a lot of shame. A lot of shame.

Shame is the worst. I didn't want anyone else to know. I grew up not wanting anyone to know because that was going to make me icky. I already knew I was different. I already wished that I already wished I could just be like those other kids in school who went on and did these great things in junior high and high school. And I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it.

I couldn't participate. I started working in 10th grade in high school. I worked all through high school. I just went to school and went to work. I don't want to do anything at school. I just wanted to get out of there. And I felt, always felt like people knew. Maybe people in my neighborhood did know.

How could they not? How could that have not gotten out? But I had completely separated from, I had no more social connections in my neighborhood other than getting on the bus with people. I probably got on the bus and just sat on. So you're isolated. Yeah.

Didn't sit with my best friend. The other girl was more of an acquaintance, the third girl. It was the best, the three girls were a best friend and an acquaintance. Yes. Okay. So now we're going to move forward to nine years ago, nine years ago. I'm still a mess really emotionally. I don't make, I don't go out and bring people into my life.

You're either there because I know. you unless I get in a real I mean I'm a little bit different right now because I've gone through a lot of therapy and processing but for the most part I don't even if I do go to a social group of some kind I'm not going to bring you home and bring you into my life I'm just going to go to the group and see you there and enjoy my time with you there but you're not going to come home become my friend at my house that's not something I did ever I wasn't keep yourself safe yeah no no I, you know, it wouldn't be that because I wouldn't feel unsafe with friends.

Okay. And they were friends, different groups of friends. One was a Bunko group. I always felt, you know, I had fun at the group when I went. But I wasn't involved outside the group. And a lot of the people in the group were involved outside the group. I never chose to put myself in that. I didn't know how to do that.

You didn't know how. No, I didn't know how to, you know, I always knew I was kind of an outsider. You know, somebody brought me to sub one night. Now that friend's not even in the group, and I'm in a group with a bunch of people that I know because of them playing this board game, this dice game with them. But they're not really my outside friends. They have nothing to do with my life. They don't know anything about me unless we've talked about it, that one night of mine. And then I was in a, um, uh, uh,

an antique store. I've bought and sold antiques for about 20 years now. And I did go into a store and I always felt uncomfortable there to people who tried to reach out and wanted to be for me. It wasn't comfortable for me. That was that was in this about nine years ago. So nine years ago, I got a message on messenger from the acquaintance, the third girl from the third girl from the event. And she was reaching out to tell me that she was getting therapy and her therapist is trying to help her get past our trauma that we shared. And you had not heard from her since it happened. No, not involved at all. She actually was in the same school district, same schools never spoke to her ever again or the best friend. well, I went to school together, never spoke again. It's really sad. I mean, I was reading the other day that one of the symptoms of PTSD is that you don't want to be around people that remind you of the trauma.

So it makes perfect sense now. Right. I'm glad I know that now. It was a natural response. It wasn't something anyone did on purpose. Right. Right. Yeah. So, wow, she sent this message out. I couldn't believe it. I was in shock. I'm pretty sure I was in shock reading that. I was actually glad, but in shock, really, she was trying to connect, and I was not ready to do that. So a little texting back and forth about trying to have coffee. But then the next text message is two years later. So that never did happen, nine years.

ago when when she reached out to me I don't know what I was going through for that next two years but then I because I hadn't really done any research yet on who my victimizer may have been so I don't know but I did reach back out to her well she wasn't ready then so we kind of did this tango of back and forth with you know I'm ready you're not that's totally cool yeah five years ago I reached out to her again and at this point, I said to her, you know, I think maybe, what do you think? I think maybe it could be Ted Bundy because now I know Ted Bundy rang around in our area. That was the same timing. Maybe it was

him because this is what I always told people and said it again. I just remember he wasn't ugly. You know, I'm not going to call him good looking. I'm just, I just remember he wasn't ugly, you know. He didn't look like a homeless, like, unkempt. type of criminal. Not what you imagine someone like that would look like. Okay. So she came back

to me and said she had read a book and it was the I-5 killer by Anne Rule. And she thought it was probably him. Well, I'd never even heard of the I-5. I've grown up

in this area of my whole life. Never heard of him. Okay, so, and she's not really, you know, I didn't want to push her. She was going through some other things. And so we just, we did not connect again, really. But we connected enough at that point to say, to kind of throw that out there. She gave me this lead on the I-5 killer. So I started, I think first thing I did was went to Audible and looked up the I-5

killer. And I started listening to it. And it was really hard. It took me a couple years to get through that. I was in shock at first. Now, this is, I'm listening to an audio book at this point. I don't even know what he looks like. Wow, you're listening to the audio before you've been there.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I'm listening. Okay, this is who this is. This is what he did. Yes. Well, he was in our area. He did this, Robb the Baskin and Robbins in Buffle.

He robbed a restaurant on Lake City. Um, he went to Portland State University and played football. So he maybe ended up at the University of Washington or one of our other colleges out here. I mean, it's just the little things start. Well, then maybe that's the point that she sent me the I-5 killer book. But then I, at some point, she sent me his photo. And you have that photo. Now, this is him in 1975.

Okay. We have the other photos. So this is when he was arrested. and actually put in prison, he had a 10-year sentence. This is the photo. I believe this is 1973. It's hard to read, but maybe at the bottom there, it says 5773. He's arrested in Portland State University, in Portland, Oregon,

for indecent exposure. He was arrested many times for this. He has a huge record. I can't access the records in Oregon for, for some odd reason. I would have to go and do a FOIA request. I know he was arrested four times here in 1981. And I've heard that he was actually arrested in Vancouver, Washington in 1973,

for either exposing him. He started he would expose himself. That's what he got into trouble for doing. Okay. By the time when he was in high school, he was exposed for exposing. He was arrested for exposing his 18-year-old. His minor record was closed. Okay.

And then he started getting arrested for it as an adult as an 18-year-old and the 19-year-old and a 20-year-old. Interesting. Portland State University and played football. He was on the football team for Portland State University. Wow. And they knew about him. They covered it up. Wow.

Wow. Before I learned about them well, when I saw his face. So it wasn't this one. It was a 19th, but anyhow, he does look basically the same. Right. I'm just switching back and forth, but yeah. I certainly wouldn't call him good looking because that would make him really happy. He's very conceited. I've read a lot about him. He's, he, uh, he thinks that he is all that, but he's just a monster. So of course, we talked about this, you and I, I have no evidence. I'm just stating my story. This is my story. Doesn't matter to me.

going to take I have no what do I this is all circumstantial evidence let's say sure well what were your feelings what were your feelings when you saw the picture oh I knew immediately it was him and again shock immediately shock oh my God that's him and we did and his name his name is Randall Woodfield Randall Woodfield and he's from Oregon and he is a serial killer he is a serial killer he actually went into in the 17, here's when I encountered him.

He was, I believe, 21 years old, maybe 22. Okay. I think maybe 22. Early in 20. So after he already has a record of exposing himself. He had a long record. His therapist in high school said,

oh, it was just normal boy behavior. Well, I think he'll grow out of it. But his parents have never agreed to an interview. Don't know anything about his family. They have been extremely quiet. No interview anywhere that I can find on the internet. Just that he grew up in this nice upper middle class family in Otorak Orkin. But he's going to college and he's getting in trouble.

Here he is in 1975. This, okay, in 1973, I believe it was, maybe 70. He was even drafted into the NFL. Wow. I didn't know that. Yes. And I, sorry to say, it's, oh, the Green Bay Packers. They recruited him in like the 497th round.

And he went to Green Bay. And he was there for about a month and a half, maybe two months. And he got in trouble, got arrested, I'm sure. and they threw him off. And he came back and he was on a tangent. And what he would do is he would have these lists of phone numbers of girls that he would meet. Every time he meet a girl, he would write her name and ask for her phone number. And when he was arrested in 1981, he had a huge list of phone numbers.

I'd love to see those phone numbers because I'm sure some of them are from where I live. I think the reason he was in my area is because he was in college. and I lived in an area where there was obviously a lot of kids in college. And it was kind of an upper middle class area. And these kids, a lot of them probably went to the U or they went to Wazoo. And they met through, you know, he met some football player through a football team in Washington State. And then met girls, you know, played football coming here, meet girls, write them on this list. I've just wondered that, you know.

Yeah. Because there's a neighborhood right behind them. well, our neighborhood. And there were a lot of older kids in that neighborhood college age. My sister was college age. And there were a lot of, you know, kids her age. Yeah. And so anyway, he gets fired from the Packers and he sent home.

And he takes this phone list and he would like call people up. And if they didn't want to go out with him, his MO was to, you know, go. Well, later he would kill them, but at this point, he got in trouble for ransacking an old girlfriend's apartment or something like that. So he's put in jail given a 10-year sentence. He hadn't murdered. He hadn't been caught for murder yet. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the Internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers.

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And I'll forever be thankful that in 1973 he hadn't escalated because when we hear about these stories of these girls that are beat and strangled and, you know, the things these guys can do to girls. He didn't hurt us in any physical way. Now, I mean, you know, there were nothing to show for what, at least in my experience, again, I don't know what happened to the other girls. I think what must have happened to me is when I saw him touch my friend, I must have gone into shock. And I only remember at the point when he's actually trying to get inside me and I'm pushing and him get me up and leaving. I have no memory of anything.

I've tried. I've really tried. really tried. I sit back and I've remembered a lot, but I just can't remember that. So and I did try to ask the acquaintance when we communicated and she wasn't able to talk about it with me. So, um, so he's in jail and he's supposed to do 10 years, but he gets out in four and a half on good behavior gets out in 1979. And in 1979, he goes on a rampage and murder rampage. and he was murdering all over Washington, Oregon, and California. And by 19, I believe it's 80, it's either 80 or 81.

He may have, his, his sentence may have been 81, but by 81, he was in prison on a two lifelong murder, two murder, lifelong murders, you know. So he has been there for 44 years. And he's still alive and he's still alive. He is alive. He won't give interviews. So now with all the cold cases, they've at least attributed him to eight more murders. Additional.

So he didn't confess to those. They've just discovered that. They had the evidence. Oh. So when I told you my story, my first time, I was kind of giving you clues, and I forgot to do that this time. But one of the clues that helped me know who he was, that he was, the guy who hurt me was it was his M.O. to make his victim generally have at least two victims, a lot of times

three, and to make them take all their clothes off. So that was clue number one for me. So that's what he would do. That's what he would do. Another clue was he had gotten some kind of a football injury at some point and he couldn't have sex the normal way. So his victims later were forced to do things to him. That was another clue. That's when I realized, ah, it wasn't just me not letting him in. He actually couldn't get in. Yeah. So that was another clue.

And he was frustrated. Yeah. And maybe he thought he still could at that point. But later, he didn't even attempt. Another clue was one of the crimes he committed when he got out of prison before he was caught again was he, and he stopped people. I believe that most of his victims are stuck. He either, you know, went to this phone list.

If he called and asked the, he would call up girls from, say he'd go to Washington because he lived in Oregon, call up a girl on his Washington list and say to her, hey, can I come spend the night and I went down around really? I'd like to come hang out. Somebody had just met once with a phone number. And then if they rejected him, that's when he would go do something. So I feel like that may have been one. happened with us we were the rebound that day he was in the area he was definitely not in his area because he lived in oregon but he knew our area and um like i said there were a lot of young girls his

college age girls in the area and maybe somebody was on his list and rejected him because most of them did reject him and then he would go do something stupid you know yeah um so what was that with that forgot. You're talking. Sorry, you just, you saw him and you thought this is him. You learned all about him and this is who you believe was the man. I was going to tell you about the little girls in Orkin. So I discovered it was that he had a thing for the girls too. So he and stopped him. And I think maybe with our experience, he, my, I was telling my husband this day of the day, he said he was probably in the parking lot at the grocery store. And he saw us come through the trail to the parking lot and knew we'd go back through the trail.

There you go. Yeah. So he went over and he caught us. Right. Well, he somehow knew these two young girls sisters, 10 and 12 years old lived in Orkin and with their mother and somehow knew that the mother had left to go to the store, left, the house anyhow. Right after she left, she left, he went to the front.

This is a story. Yeah. And what year is this? Do you know? Oh, goodness. This is during his crime spree. Okay, after he's released for good behavior. Yes.

So from 79 through 80. Okay. He basically was out for two years. He just wasn't meant to be out of prison. And so these little girl's mother went to go to the store. He was obviously stalking them, saw her lead, went straight to the front door and knocked. And when the little girl answered the door, the older one, the 12 girl, he said, I need to use your phone. And she was like, oh, no, my mom's not home.

And he said, well, that's okay. And he pushed his way through. And he went over and pretended to get on the phone. And Anne Ruhl writes about this in her book. At some point, he makes the two little sisters go upstairs into the bathroom. He makes them take all their clothes off. He makes them do things to him. And then he leaves.

And these two little girls were part of the, they survived. they weren't, you know. Okay. They were part of the team that put him in prison for life. Because he had murdered, what really put him in finally was he murdered an ex-girlfriend and her new boyfriend in the ex-girlfriend's apartment. And because these little girls recognized him as being the perpetrator for him, they were able to identify him as being the same person who,

was to somebody how, somehow they had evidence that linked him to the murder there. She, I don't know what the details are of the story, but again, he's got little girls. He's making them take all their clothes off. He's not doing anything to them because he can't. Right. It's his MO. This is, I hear you. His MO.

What's really kind of unusual is that he does a lot of people. he knows. But I believe he did. He hurt people he didn't know too. He stalked them. In Baskin and Robbins in Bawthel, there were two girls working in the basket and Robbins. He broke in somehow. I can't remember the exact details, but you can find it online. He made all the, made them take their clothes off, and he raped them, but in what way, I'm not exactly clear and he ended up shooting either, I believe, you know, my details, because they're, I get the mixed up. There's a few stories like similar to this. There's a cleaning crew of two girls in Oregon that he did the same thing, broke into the office where they were cleaning after

hours and shot both of them. So I'm not clear, but he did rob the Baskin Robbins and Bobville, made them take their clothes off and I believe sexually assaulted them and then left. Maybe he, maybe those girls are alive today. I hope so. And if they are, I mean, you know, the whole purpose for this is that when I realized I wasn't alone, there's no way. Well, first of all, not alone. I know that the two little girls are now grown up. And they were younger than me because in 1973, I was 11 and they're 10 and 12 in 1980. You know, you're not alone.

They're not alone. It wasn't just them. you know, I grew up thinking this was just us. Never in my wildest dreams did I think that I would become a part of this story. So in my knowing all this, it became a lot. I mean, I kind of became obsessed. You know, we're in COVID and I'm Google. I'm doing my research and I'm listening to the audio book and I'm writing notes.

And I'm just this brought a lot out of you then. This finally. brought you into like facing it a little bit more. Yeah, when I got this story I'll clear in my head. I called my husband in my bedroom and I said, I told him this story. And he's not like this, but he said, you need to do something about this. Because I said, oh my God. I mean, now they're saying that they believe they can attribute him to 40 to 60 unsolved rapes. Those are people alive. Wow. I didn't even know who this was.

If I hadn't had this communication with my friend, the acquaintance, and hadn't been given this information about who he was. And then, you know, I would have looked his photo up anyway. But once I figured out who he was, I probably already had. But yes, she showed me the photo first. She may have showed me the photo first and then told me about the iPad killer book. but I would have just gone on believing the rest of my life. I would have lived, I'm 62.

I would have lived the rest of my life, which I hope is very long because a beautiful grandchildren. I want to be a great grandma someday. Yes, yes. But I would have been miserable, just like I had been. I had been a really unhappy. My, I, I, I mean, I never could find my place where I belonged, you know, socially.

I had my couple of friends I felt very comfortable with. And I had my family, my mom and my aunts and uncles and my cousins were a pretty big family. We'd go down to ocean shores and we travel together. And so I have that. But I was really very unhappy inside. and I was I had become a hypervigilant grandma you know

I've been a hypervigilant mother that any time someone dropped something I had a fit and I wasn't I never would lose my temper with my grandchildren where I became very paranoid afraid that afraid for them to even play outside without anybody being there

somebody has got to be you don't let a five-year-old go play with their eight-year-old, nine-year-old sibling. You know, you just don't, because somebody can take all of them. You know, they're just too little. Right. So I still feel that way, but I think that I'm not having as bad of a physical reaction to it. Almost like this exploration has allowed you to heal, facing everything a bit, starting to heal. That's the other thing, is that.

During my, during COVID, three years ago, my mom passed away. We only had six months notice that she had cancer. I'm so sorry. So that, thank you. And, you know, I absolutely adored her. She would do anything for any of us children. Three kids, grandkids, cousins, aunts, uncles, anyone in this family who needed something, she was there for you. But we did have this, you know, I had, I guess I must have had a deep,

rooted complex of why didn't you stand up for me. And, you know, it's really weird. Before she died and we were at Ocean Shores, all of a sudden out of nowhere, she said to me, you know, Debbie, I defended you. Oh, I protected you. And I remember again looking at her and not knowing what to say. Like, what do you mean?

and I went away and I said to my two friends that I'm friends with that I became friends with after this happened I said what did she mean by that? I don't understand why didn't I ask her? I don't know. There was something about

why couldn't I ask her what she meant? What did you mean by that? And they said one of my friends said she wanted you to know that she had protected you meaning I wasn't there that day, couldn't stop it from happening.

I know we've never talked about it, but I protected you. Do you think she meant to also say I believe you, too? Probably. I think deep down, you know, after she passed away and I was doing all this processing, I talked to my sister, I said, did you know what happened to me when I was little? Oh, yeah. And my sister was eight years older. I said, do you know that they didn't believe us?

And she's like, oh, that's terrible. And I'm like, why did we ever talk about it? You know, mom never once. I don't know. That's kind of how everybody is. I don't know. Well, the scapegoat is not. Scape's coat is going to question,

but I didn't question her when I could have when she was alive. I don't know why. But even your older sister knew. My sister knew. Then I spoke to my aunt, my mom's younger sister. I talked to her. I said, did you know this happened? First time in my life I've ever asked any.

I just assumed either they knew and they thought it was creepy and weird and ugly or they didn't know. I didn't know. I grew up wondering, who knew? Who doesn't know? Do they think I'm a liar? What does everyone think about me? Right. And she said, oh, yes, I know.

So she, oh, and I'll tell you another person that said something, my stepmother. So my dad passed away when I was 20 in 1982. My stepmom stayed in my life until she passed away. And a couple years before she passed away, which was maybe 10 to 15 years ago now, she said to me one day, out of nowhere, she looked at me and said, did it really happen? Whoa. I know exactly what she was talking about. I said, of course it happened.

And I told her what happened. So my dad knew to. I never spoke to my dad about it. They were divorced, but he lived, you know, not too far away. We continued to have a very close relationship. Never spoke to him about it. I mean, he must have been heartbroken to think that happened. But not once did a word come out of his mouth to me about it or from mine to his.

And they let the police shut the case. Police shut the case down right away. I just feel like I would probably be screaming at police officers. Like, no, you don't. Believe me, that has been hard to live with the anger. I knew what the police did. I didn't know what other people did, like Portland State University and Oregon State, Oregon Police Department, Washington Police Department,

who in those days didn't communicate, and I sure hope they do now. If crime happens in Washington, you don't check for the creeps in Oregon. That's how it used to be. If it didn't happen in Washington, in fact, when he was finally arrested and put into prison for the term he's serving now, a lot of people who were victims, who the police knew that he had done it, The police chose not to charge him because they didn't want to go through the hassle and the time and the waste of money and resources to charge someone who was already in prison for two life terms. They never had their day of justice. The little girls, no, there's no, there's no record about her, about them.

I mean, the story is out, but they didn't get to go to court. Wow. And they had evidence, you know. Yeah. So it's a shame how the whole system is not designed to help the person who's been hurt unless they die. And I call victims, victims who are the ones who die and survivors are the ones who survive. So we are survivors. And when I learned that, when I learned,

about Dr. Edith Egger who is my idol. She's amazing. She's a Holocaust survivor. I hope she's alive, but I don't know that she is. I caught her videos a couple of years ago, and she was about 93 years old. So she survived the Holocaust, her entire family, except for I believe one sister

was murdered in the gas chamber the day they arrived at Auschwitz. She was forced to work and was starved, but survived. But when she came out of those concentration camps, she was like me. She didn't want anyone to know that she had been in the Holocaust. She didn't want anyone to know that she had lived there and done that. So she was able to come to the United States. But that part of her, she put away and never told anyone. And she raised children just like I did.

And she had struggles like I did because she. She suffered from the same thing that I did, which is PTSD. And when she was about 50, she had a nervous breakdown. And it was after that, I believe, now please forgive me, Dr. Edithegher, if my details are wrong, but I believe that's when she became a psychologist. Okay. At 50 years old, after her nervous breakdown. And she is the one who has the theory.

She's written two books, one called The Gift and one called The Choice. The Gift is the bad thing that happened. into you. You know, I look at this now as a gift. God gave it to me. You can't, you know, why did, why did this happen? Well, it had to happen for a reason. And the choices, now that you recognize that it was a gift, not a curse,

what do you do with it? You know, do you keep it to yourself? Do you pretend it didn't happen and keep it over here? Or maybe there's something you can do with that and do some good. So that's what she practices and preaches now is how to help people take that bad thing that happened and turn it into something that can be used for good. Is that why you're sharing your story today? Yes. Yes.

And I've prayed about it a lot. It's very scary. My very first time ever doing this. And God told me every step of the way. I mean, there would be a sign. And in fact, I took the summer. The first time I approached you was maybe three months ago or so. It was before summer.

Yeah. And, you know, I talked with you and said, oh, I think maybe you should, you know, this is a busy time your son was home. Let's just put this off for a little bit. And then, and I actually, my husband was in the hospital this summer. Other things were going on it. And we went on a cruise. It was amazing to Alaska.

And all of a sudden, one day, the day I reached out to you again or the next day or the day before that, I popped your show and I started watching again. And you were talking about Maddie. I mean, if that isn't a sign, because that little girl had no one to speak for her. And, okay, it's time again. Is that it? God. I think so. Okay.

All right, Lauren. Are you still ready? Anywhere. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. We're honored to be a place where we can help you share your story. Thank you so much.

And I just want to, again, I said thank you for your bravery at the beginning, but maybe people can understand how sincere that was. because you are doing something that you've held inside for a very, very long time. Yes, a secret is something that will just eat you up, pretending. If you don't let it out, so, you know, I think I told you, I told my adult children. I actually have one left to tell. He's my most sensitive. And actually, we all agreed I shouldn't tell him.

But I have a feeling that three others have already talked about it to him. So you may already know, you asked me before, how did I do that? That it wasn't, I still haven't done it with one. You know, they're all different. He, I don't want him to, I don't know how he'll take it. The others, the others were like, oh, Mom, I'm so sorry. And I needed them to know. And I needed to ask for their forgiveness for being.

Like, Mom, you're the greatest mom, but you know what? We're always going to question things we do. Right. And I just know what I felt like inside during those years, and I wasn't a free spirit. I wasn't a mom who said, hey, let's just go do this. We really hardly ever went anywhere. We stayed in our house and we stayed in our yard. We had a big backyard.

We didn't go to the parks. We didn't go to the zoo. We didn't go to the Space Needle. We didn't do that. Yeah. and I'm sorry that I couldn't be present for that. I wasn't present. I'm actually, after a lot of processing therapy,

I did have therapy, I'm able to be present now. That is amazing. That's an amazing thing to be able to sit and let other people talk in the room, let other things go on, and not have to feel like you're supposed to be in the middle of it because that's kind of what hypervigilance does too. for vigilance does too.

Yeah. Control. Yeah. And I... Control. Yeah. Yeah. Opposite of being a first spirit.

Yeah. I'll go in the way it's supposed to. And I'm sorry for that. And being sensitive, you mentioned, growing up being very sensitive. Yes. Always getting my feelings hurt. You always getting your feelings hurt. You're feeling sorry for yourself.

That was the famous phrase from my mom. Stop feeling sorry for yourself. And did you feel you had, PTSD as well while raising it? Oh, I do. Yeah. Yeah, the symptoms, we did have a chart on that, but there are some, let me see here, what I wrote down. So if you, you can go online and find all of these, just put in PTSD. And I think for Maddie, there's C-P-T-SD. C-P-T-SD is, well, it's prolonged trauma. Like for Maddie, as I saw in the record, as I saw in the record, every three days or so. Right. Stefan was with her.

And if you're in the military, you can't get out. You can't get out. PTSD is caused by pretty much a terrifying experience of any kind. So that's what I had. And I had, you know, unwanted memories. I have flashbacks. Trying not to think about it. I mean, I've noticed in myself lately that now I'm kind of out there.

that I tend to bring it up when probably I shouldn't because I don't know what some people have in their background. And when I bring up what's happening to me and they haven't yet come to terms what happened to them, it's going to cause them to want to not be around me because that's the natural reaction. You do not, you want to avoid it. You want to protect yourself. You're going to protect yourself.

you do not want to hear it. So I will be much more careful who I say, who I tell my story to when it's people that I know, you know. I've noticed by reactions, I'm thinking of two people in particular that I did share with who actually had absolutely no reaction. And this was even like eight years ago, nine years ago. And I've always wondered why, ah, that's weird. Do they think I'm lying? They didn't say anything. Well, you. know why is probably because they actually were hiding something themselves and I just triggered them and now they're hunkering down they're in protection mode and they're not going to want to be around me anymore and that's maybe what happened and I don't know why well that's kind of what

happens yeah yeah thank you for seeing that yeah I don't even you just taught me something new I don't I think about times that that happened and now I realize in the new life. Yeah. You know, and you're not ready. You know, I know everybody has to go through and process whatever it is that happened to them when they're ready. I just, I guess part of me thinks, wish I'd known this sooner, but you know what? I wasn't ready. I wasn't ready until I was grieving over my mom.

And I had gotten to a point where I was so sad. I'd lost 40 pounds. I didn't leave my house for seven months. This was two and a half years ago. And I hadn't yet reached out for therapy. And I sat on my bed and I was thinking about all this stuff. And I just sat and I had the most horrible burning right here. It's your chakra.

It's part of your soul. This is, I believe, your eye. I'm not an expert. I'm just kind of learning about this stuff. but the pain. It was hot. It burned and it made me feel sick and it was right here. And it went on and I had described it to my friend and I said,

I felt, I was trying to describe how it felt. It felt like I was going to die. And my only option was to pray to God to save me. And that's what I did. And I said, God, please take this from me. take it please and he did and after that I believe I had like a divine intervention I really do I think I think that can even happen over something like this and the only way to describe it is to describe it as if you were ever in such a scary place a car accident something is you know you see your child

about to walk into the street, you know, that feeling was here. And it's so awful. It makes you feel sick. It hurts. And it's gone. And I can talk about this now. Yeah. This acquaintance, the third girl, the girl that was there with you, that experienced this with you that you would never talk to since childhood who reached back out. I find this such a compelling part of this story. Without that, I wouldn't be here today. I would never have known who I think did this. And what about the also sharing your story and that's just the journey I was sent on. I had no idea. I didn't sit down nine years ago and write a plan for what I'd do. This is just how it evolved. And then when I sat and I told my husband, he's like, you've just got to say something.

You've got to say something. Because when I realized that it just wasn't a random thing by one person to one person, it was something that happened to a lot of people. This could have happened to people in my neighborhood. This could have happened to people. I went to elementary school junior high with the kids I knew could be you know what I'm saying and I'm not it is up to everybody but what if they saw his photo the way I did and they went oh my God I mean at least it'll give you it you know it will give you a sense of knowing that this person I you know I'm not out for any kind of judgment of any you know not out to receive anything or to do anything to him. But in my mind, I believe it has to be him. And it makes me feel some kind of solitude to know that he's in prison. And I started worrying about the other people. Because I'm sympathetic.

And I, yeah, I just thought, oh, my God, I can't be alone. There's no way. And then now they're coming out 40 to 60 unsolved rapes. Wow, that's a lot of people. your fellow survivor that you know of, are you still in touch now? I can be in touch. The last few times we've talked, she has, I don't think she's ready. But you know what, it's been two years.

So before I did this, I thought, do I need to tell her? Do I need to talk to her? And for some reason, in my heart, I didn't, I chose not. to. I chose that, you know, we were all three there, but it's each of our stories, you know, and I don't want to divulge too much of her story because it's hers. Some of her details have helped fill in blanks for me and changed some of the details that I originally thought. I thought it was 1972. But when she said 73 in the winter, it made way more sense because I remember leaving before dusk. And I had thought it was summer. So if it was summer, it wouldn't have been dusk till

9.30. And that would be way too late for a bunch of little girls to go to the grocery store. Wouldn't have it. Right. Yeah. And I also thought there was more time in between my parents' divorce and when this happened, which that makes complete sense, because otherwise it would have been right after my parents' divorce. So it makes sense. I'm. You know, we just have, we have remembered things differently. So, and I don't know how she would react, but you know, I am now thinking I need to say something to her. I don't know she thinks the way I do. I mean, I've had to go through an awful lot of processing, and I've tried to reach out and talk to her about where I was at, but she wasn't ready.

she wasn't there she was grieving other things in her life so she's been grieving a lot in the last few years are you still on a journey of healing you're a survivor i mean this is one step right telling your story that you know do you know that um everything starts with the first step first it becomes a thought then you have to act on it i could have just put this way you know I actually told I had told a friend once that I wanted to tell my kids and she thought that wasn't a good idea. But that was her opinion. I had a feeling I should. And I didn't, I chose not to ask people's opinion before I reached out to you the first time.

I did say to my husband, I told you, it was about a year and a half ago. And I was watching you. And he said, what are you watching? I said, oh, I'm watching him. And this is Lauren. This is who I'm going to tell my story to. I knew I'd said it out loud. I'm going to tell my story.

And I've done it. And it was scary. How do you say? This morning I sent a message to my friend. I said, oh, gosh, I keep thinking, what have I done? But there was no way. Do you know how many times I've started things and backed out in my life since this happened? Try out for cheerleading in junior high, get through the second round and not even go the third day.

And then have them say, oh, we were going to pick you. having not wanting, you know, actually maybe even choosing to get married and start my family so young because I just, that's, you know, that was the safe way. But I'm very happy and I'm married with my husband almost 40 years and we have four beautiful children, two daughter-in-laws and for grandchildren. And five bonus grandchildren. Beautiful life. But I, wherever it takes me, it, it, yeah, I'm okay. If it takes me anywhere. If it ends up to do this, you did this.

I was ready for that too. I did what I, I did what I felt. You know, when you have this feeling that you should do something and you don't do it, that's hard. It's actually easier. Just do it. But I did pray about it. I had a lot of guidance, a lot of little messages, little signs here and there and everywhere. little signs would pop up.

Oh, watch and more. But turn on YouTube for the first time in like two months because it's all involved with politics. And there's who's on you talking about Maddie. I didn't even know about her story. I was just kind of away from the news for other than politics presidential. Yeah, that was a sign. I had to be aware of the signs. I always say and have always said that stories change people and for both the storyteller and the listeners.

And that is why we do have interviews and people's stories is such a large part of our platform that hit and true crime, people's voices, because it is my belief. And even as a TV reporter, I called myself a storyteller allowing to give other people's voices. voices, stories change us. They help us see the world differently. They help us put things into perspective. They can change us. Listening to somebody else's story can change us more than anything else and for the person sharing the story too. And on that topic, I may not have mentioned how many survivor stories I've been watching. And that's one reason why I'm sitting here. Okay. I'm thankful to everybody who's come out.

And we are survivors and we should be proud of that. We survived and we're still here. Okay, let's make what's left of this journey great, you know. We're here to help others really. Yes. You know? Absolutely. Absolutely.

So thank you or today. Is there anything else that you would like to share? Why don't you take a look at your notes? You've been thinking about this. I mean, it takes some time. Look at your notes. You have been waiting for this for so long. I don't want you to forget something that you wish you had talked about.

They may not have been in the order I wrote down or in the order that I thought that I told you the first time that they came out the way that they were supposed to. So I think we got it all. Okay. Thank you. I suspect we might be getting more information from this. So if anybody has additional information to continue this story of healing for you, you can head to our website, hidden true crime.com and go to our contact form to email me and John and to let us know of anything else that you might know that could corroborate what you have shared. So thank you. And just, you're not alone. I mean, I bet you there are more of us out there than people who have no trauma. Okay.

It's not just you. And I just want you to know that you're believed. I think that's a part of healing too. And so I'm grateful that. I have been believed. My children have believed me. I'm, you know, nobody's doubted it. And thank you.

Yeah, but I can't imagine what that did as a child to have police say they didn't believe you. Three girls. Yeah. I, you know, there's a movie out about another girl in King County who was raped and the police convinced her she was lying. And I don't know the name of it. There's a movie out about that. And it's pretty well done. She was a more like 15, 16.

She was a foster child. and they and I don't know the exact time it may have been more like the 80s that it happened but you know maybe it's more common than we know where they just I mean as I saw your other interview with the pastor the pastor the other night the poor girl that escaped that torture chamber yes yes he was saying the blue barrel the blue barrel and the police the police don't want to do anything It happens everywhere. It happens all the time. If you, especially, well, some of the girls I have to come back.

But yeah, if they don't have a body, what are they going to do? Right. And they don't call it a missing person until they find a body. Right. Thank you. Thank you for being a survivor and sharing your story. And we will certainly be in touch. I'll tell you, it's worth it.

But it's tricky. But worth it. Very worth it. Very worth it. Thank you, Lori. You made it easy. Appreciate it so much. Thank you so much.

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