Hidden True Crime - The Dark Psychology of Jodi Arias — Why Revenge Became Deadly

Episode Date: November 20, 2025

Our guest today is Briana Whitney, a local Phoenix reporter who just finished a new documentary on Jodi Arias. Briana joins us to talk about the Jodi Arias case and what she learned about Jodi while they communicated. Obsessed: Unraveling Jodi Arias | True crime documentary https://youtu.be/xt4EHxymIlg?si=htFC-i0t3akhhb1h Sponsors: Nurture Life: For 55% off your order + FREE shipping, head to http://NurtureLife.com/HIDDEN and use code HIDDEN. Aura: You can go to my sponsor https://aura.com/hiddentruecrime to try 14 days for free. That’s enough time for Aura to start scrubbing your personal info off these data broker sites, without you lifting a finger. Keeper: Now playing in theaters About Hidden True Crime What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, Hidden Gems. We have a fascinating conversation for you today, interview with you today. I already know it's going to be because we are with our dear friend, Brianna Whitney. She is a true crime correspondent in Arizona with AZ family. You do incredible work. We became friends covering trials together, you and I. You have interviewed some infamous criminals, including Lori Vallow.

You did multiple interviews with her. Dr. John, Matthias has definitely weighed in on some of your work, and you have additional work that you have been doing busy behind the scenes. We have been privy to some of it. It's incredible. You have just concluded a entire Jody Arias documentary. It's called Obsessed, Unraveling Jody Arias. obsessed and we're all obsessed. It was a fascinating documentary. We were able to watch it a little bit early to see it. Thank you for that

opportunity. The documentary comes out today on YouTube. You can find it there. It'll also be on Roku. We'll learn all the places you can hear this documentary and it'll be linked in the description of this episode. We're lucky that

my co-host is a criminal psychologist hanging out with us today. So we can ask him all our questions because I don't know about you, Brianna, but Jodi Arias is one of those infamous figures that people still talk about, in my opinion, because

of the psychology, right? Because of... 100%. Yeah. Yeah. I can't imagine what you were uncovering, unraveling, as you delved into this. I communicated with her. Spoiler alert. Yeah. You guys are penned... A little of that.

As I seem to be with the prison people these days. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So, you know, I want to, I want to delve into this. I don't know if John wants to start. We just want to be like, tell us who Jody Arias is unravel this for us, John. But I first want to say the documentary was fascinating. Can you take us a little bit into how you decided to get into this, how you wrote Jody Arias and then maybe we'll ask John some questions? Yeah, no, I mean, I honestly had you guys in mind with when we were talking about how we were going to do this story because I think so many people, these. days, especially with true crime, have that fascination with psychology and that criminal mindset and what we can learn from those people. And even getting to work with you guys, I quickly was exposed to how many people care about that side of cases. And so when we were talking about what we are going to do for a documentary, there's so many factors that go into it, right? Like video, how much video can we shoot and how much is there in a case, exposability in terms of,

Is this a name people will know and will they want to hear more about the case? And there's a lot on Jody that's out there. I mean, she's infamous. There's quite a bit. There's a lot about Travis Alexander. And so we knew if we did it, we are going to have to take a little bit of a different angle. And so a little behind the scenes, I was able to get the police report. This is actually a crazy story.

The police report is $10,000 from Mesa Police because there are so many people that request this, even to this day, so many years after the crime. The murder happened in 2008. People are still requesting this just to go through things. And so they started charging people, but they knew we were going to do a news documentary. And so they were able to get me the police report, not for $10,000.

And it is huge, this big. There's a huge binder on my desk that's this big. And I was like, let me go through this and see, you know, what can we derive that maybe we didn't hear as much about or that's not preserved in certain documentaries, docu-series podcast nowadays. And I was stunned by the amount of writing that Jody did not only in her journal leading up to the crime itself and after, but also in the

large amount of texts and emails and AIMs and everything to Travis. And once I started really getting into how she spoke, her cadence, her style, and the way that she almost would manipulate her writings to go along with what she needed it to happen in that day, that date, according to the crime, I realized the psychology was something that I really wanted to look into based on her own words. On top of that, she is writing a lot from prison, and I know you'll probably get into that. And so I'm very privy to what's happening in her life now from written word as well. And that's kind of how we decided to take the approach of this psychological angle. What does she suffer from most or what does she have most in her psychology that makes up who Jody is?

Because she's complicated, she's smart, and she's cunning. And that's kind of where this all was born from. Complicated, smart, and cunning. Yeah. Would you agree with that, John? He's nodding. I mean, I haven't talked to her, so it would be hard to make an assessment of those elements. But certainly, I mean, she seems, yeah, she seems to fit those descriptions, I think.

Yeah. I would definitely say, yeah, she is those things. Yeah. And I don't think she's changed a lot in the way that, I mean, at least from what I was able to to read and dive into from the files back then and everything to what she's doing now and in the many writings that she's doing from prison, it does seem like she is just the same person in the same way in which she believes that people really, really, really care about what she has to say. Self-importance. A lot of self-importance. You know, I found it fascinating to learn that she is

still writing a blog from prison. How does that happen, by the way, that all. prisoners can go put their thoughts onto the worldwide web for all of us they don't even have to write letters anymore is that it so so the way i guess maybe it differs among the prison system in different states but what she's doing is she has somebody on the outside who has this blog set up for her and she writes different blog posts through the exact way she contacted me which is like the prison email system the messaging system and so she will get these writings out to her her team um to put onto her blog and that's how she's able to do it what i don't know though she has some different pictures that she's been able to get to um this person like her you know

updated mug shots throughout and yeah those are public but there's even more pictures in perryville prison that she's been able to get on her blog that part i'm not sure about um but she does have access to quite a bit i mean i i was stunned to learn that she has access to like a lot of ways to to cook different foods and bake, and she participates in certain, like, competitions, and she knows quite a bit about technology. Like, there's quite a bit that she has much more access to than I would have expected from a prisoner who's in prison for life. She baking in prison is, like, a baking cookbook from, like, prison cookbook, or is it, like,

I don't know. She wrote about, I forget what it was in her blog. It was, like, some decadent cheesecake type situation. I'm like, how does she have these ingredients? Like, it was beyond the normal scope of, like, sugar, flower. You know, I'm like, where is she getting all this? And how is she learning all of this? But it does seem she has access to internet in some capacity

because she is able to see certain things online. To me, the most interesting part of her blogs in general was the amount of times that she addresses people thinking she should have a girlfriend and that she flirts with police officers or the detention officers. And to make it a point that she doesn't do that and that, you know, she could, but she doesn't. I just thought that that was par for the course

with the Jody playbook, so to speak. where she talks about having a girlfriend or that people think she has a girlfriend and she doesn't. That people think she has one or should have one or could have one and that she's not interested in girls. But she did write, you had this in the documentary. Spoiler alert, I've just decided we're going to put this out. I'll put it out when it's on YouTube or it. That's fine. Spoiler alert.

She does mention sort of exploring bisexuality. Is that a fair way to? That's what she said. Yeah, I would, right? She, the exact quote was to read to quote a refrain from Katie Perry. I kissed a girl and I did not like it. Oh, okay. Yeah.

Okay. That's not her thing. Okay. That she doesn't have a thing. She tried it. Okay. Yep. Yep.

We're just letting John sit here and listen and we'll get to him. I'm sure he has a lot of thoughts. Yeah. I have a lot of questions. So I'm like, sorry, John, sit down. We'll get to you. Wow. Wow, wow, wow. So she's in there, she's writing, she's cooking you, AI, even she knows about AI. She wrote you. I'll say that. People can go watch the documentary to learn about your exchanges with her. It's fascinating to me. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the Internet, and then packaging and selling it.

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You took us through the entire sort of trial in Maricopa County, which is fascinating because I recently covered a few trials there. And, you know, the bailiffs would always say to us, you know, you were there, Brianna, this is nothing like the Jodi Arias trial. You guys have no idea. And you showed us a little bit about that. That was wild. You spoke to jurors. You spoke to witnesses to his. best friends. You did an excellent job laying this out, you know, justice for Travis.

Like I said, I won't share, you know, the heartbreak and the justice of the trial. You showed us both. It really was a fascinating sort of look back with some additional new information. I'm curious, you were young when Travis was killed, when this crime occurred. And so you weren't following it like so many of us. Did you, what do you? you what do you think of it now looking at it learning all about it i want to know your thoughts in in learning about this and you know and then addition to that i have a follow-up to that yeah okay perfect um so yeah i was young when jody killed travis but i was a little bit older when the trial actually happened because there was quite a gap there that the murder happened in 2008 she went to

trial at the very beginning of 2013 and by that point i was you know i knew who joddiarius was and i I was paying attention somewhat to crime a little bit older. And at the time, I just thought it was like, you know, another kind of high profile trial. I didn't like get into the weeds of it though until I was here. And I going through that file video, I was shocked. I have covered a lot of trials here. I've covered crazy trials.

I've covered crazy people in the trials. I have never seen the fanfare and the chaos and the kind of movie style soap opera vibes that this trial had in this state and just all over the nation. I think one of the more shocking parts was the amount of people that showed up here from all over desperate to get into the courthouse. And we saw a little bit of that during Lori Valo Debel's trial here. but I mean mobs, like mobs of people outside screaming, crying, hugging, when any little thing would happen. There were so many days where people couldn't get in or weren't even outside that they actually formed like a group and then went to a nearby restaurant to stream the trial live from near the Maricopa County courthouse. It was crazy. Nancy Grace was here covering a lot of it. And in our file footage, we have the story of her in the Estreya jail just going like sell by

cell being like, you know Arias, you know areas? What do you know about her? Like the access and just the salacious kind of media frenzy that was around this, I've never seen it before. Yes, I know like Karen Reid might be the best example recently where there was quite a bit of crowd and interest there and people outside. But this was almost just like off the rails unhinged. And it wasn't just outside.

It was also inside the courtroom. The way that the prosecution, the defense presented themselves and Jody on the stand for 18 days. I feel like so much of what happened during that trial would never happen now. And it's a catch-22 with the trial and just the case itself. It garnered so much interest for Travis and what happened. But a lot of it was for those reasons of the salaciousness of everything. And I feel like it almost highlights what can be like that ethical question in true crime of, you know, how do we report this and make this big and these people known these victims and everything without exploiting it for all that it is. And this trial honestly kind of crossed that line. You actually answered my next question too. I was going to ask you what you would think of it today and how that sort of paints how you report on true crime.

Yeah, I'm shocked at what was allowed and what was said. things that were written on on lower thirds on air in general back then it seemed like it was just it's nothing that I would ever do now and while I think that there's so much interest still in true crime it feels that it was kind of just I I described it a lot as unhinged and I feel like that's how it was and it doesn't seem like that's as much what would be allowed today and I definitely would probably report a little differently just because for that for that factor but i also think that in this day and age there's also more um there there's more thought around how things are portrayed and in true crime ethics and things like that i think at the time

like cable tv was so popular that this was just like i mean thousands and thousands of people are watching this every day and that stuff sold and so i think that we have kind of that duty in between here to to to expose something to where people want to to watch it and are interested but doing that responsibly makes sense john you've been so patient, I feel like I need to offer you, do you want to interrupt this right now and say something or should we keep going? No, I'm good. You guys keep going. I mean, you know, these are great questions. One of the, one of the fascinating things about Jody Arias to me is I don't see this case as being that complicated, like for all the fanfare and all the frenzy around the trial, right? Like,

I get why people were interested in it, as you point out, Brianna, about the salacious nature of the crime and their relationship. But I mean, like, when you break it down psychologically, it's really not all that complicated. I mean, it's like understanding the motives and reasons. Like, it's pretty straightforward. Well, keep going. Keep going. Tell us some more. Well, I mean, like if you look for the motive, it's simple.

It's revenge. I don't think it's that complicated. And it's revenge for being rejected by Travis. And so like that's kind of an age-old story. You know, Lauren, you and I talk about all the time that we call it the true crime trio, which is greed, lust, and revenge. And actually, there's some fascinating new research on revenge. There's actually a book that just came out a few months ago called The Science of Revenge.

It's by James Kimmel Jr. He's done a lot of research on this. And there's research showing that revenge is an addictive-like, that it's in many ways, the desire for revenge is more addictive than all the drugs you can imagine that are addictive. So like cocaine, math, right, heroin, revenge is equally addictive, if not more so. And the brain, brain scans are showing that revenge is just, it can be a really overpowering, compelling component of people's desires to engage and commit violence. And so back then, I think maybe that wasn't as well understood. I mean, I think anybody who watched Dateline would know that revenge was always kind of a major motivation.

But the thing about, I think, to understand Jody, you really have to go back. You know, you picked up pieces of this in the documentary, Brianna, where you talked about, you know, you talked to a high school, old high school classmate. And one of the most interesting things he told the story of he had a friend or a guy that was dating Jody and they broke up and all of a sudden Jody is outside his window. He's watching TV. and Jody is standing there at the window, right? There's other bits and pieces of she,

when Travis was with other women, that he slashed her, his tires on his car. Friends, again, these are all things that you picked up on this documentary, which I think are really important. Spoiler alert. Yeah, spoiler. Well, you're not going to release this until Thursday or Friday.

It's perfect. Right. A friend, you know, the word obsessed shows up all the time. The cellmate, Donovan, says that Jody's obsessed with Travis. And then the friend says she's obsessed, right? Like, that's why you call this documentary obsessed. But what does all that mean? Right.

Like, so if you look at this, there's a history of stalking here. Right? This begins with stalking. And stalking is based on fantasy. Stocking is based on this. So there's a, well-known psychologist Jay Reid-Malloy who talks a lot about stalking and he has this idea that stalkers create what he calls a narcissistic linking fantasy and what he means by that is that

the stalker creates a fantasy related to some object typically that's a person right and and the fantasy I think is really what drives the obsession and um the fantasy I think I think think with with jody the fantasy is largely about this idealized version of love this this this or to take it even further i think with with jody there's this fantasy of merger this is merger fantasy of how she's going to somehow like become a part of Travis or any boyfriend she's dating and somehow that will like make her whole or solve all her problems right and so it's the fantasy it's this this stalking part that jody has from high school and she continues with Travis, right? And so I think that's what needs to be looked at. And so when she becomes particularly obsessed with Travis, but then when he breaks up with her, she shifts into

another gear. It's for her, it's particularly humiliating, I think. There's a lot of shame. So he has this fantasy about marrying him and somehow him rescuing her, I think, in some sense, like this version of idealized or over-idealized love, which by the way is one of, one of the, one of the of the features of borderline personality disorders, which Dr. Nelson and Dr. Demarte apparently diagnosed her with this. So in borderline personality, there's this tendency to kind of over-idealize people and then to devalue them. So that seems to be in play here too. But you have this fantasy that's now completely shattered when Travis breaks up with her, which creates a lot of shame, creates humiliation. And even to some degree, rejection, I think, is about survival. If you go back to

our earliest roots with attachment. And we, our very survival depends upon not being rejected by our caregivers. So there's something really primitive about this type of rejection. If you look at any human being that's rejected, you know, it's a good way to assess their mental health. Do they have the resources to cope with that? Do they handle rejection in a healthy way? Are they resists? resilient enough to deal with rejection and go on with their life? Or do they take it as something that's humiliated, something that's shameful, something that their survival, their very survival might be dependent upon, right? And I think with Jody, obviously, she doesn't have the resources. She doesn't have the psychological resources to cope with rejection. And so the response to that

is revenge. The response to that is rage. Again, like if you look at stalkers, when they're rejected, the response typically is rage. Or one of the reasons they engage in stalking is because they're enraged at the object who didn't give them what they wanted. And so the natural response to that is to seek to destroy or damage the person or the thing that's rejecting you. So was that the motive? I thought she was going to Cancun, wasn't she?

I need a backstory on this. Did he break up with her? I'm trying to remember. The problem with them was they were so on and off again. And at the time that she killed him, no, they were not together. He was going to take another girl to Cancun. Jody knew that. Jody knew that he was dating other women.

And so, yeah, and she confirmed that date too in text right before, or AIM's Yahoo Messenger or whatever, confirmed that with him. And so she definitely was aware of that date. And a lot of people think that that was kind of like the final straw. Like he wasn't inviting her. He was moving on. And that was, yeah, so she was never going to Cancun. She knew that another girl was going with Travis, who Travis was interested in. Right.

And that he wanted to date women of the Mormon faith, which she had converted to. But they were a part of the salaciousness of this, let's be honest, is, I mean, I actually wrote down a lot of things that I think make it salacious. This is not psychological. This is just someone that consumes and reports on true crime. But you have clearly beauty, a beautiful couple, right? youthful, beautiful couple that should have it all. Then you've got this, right, this sexual relationship, the desire that's actually sort of actually there's also sexual tension.

It's off limits sex, right? They're trying not to happen because then you have the religious aspect of this Mormonism, that she converted to his faith, that he wants to be with chaste and moral women, and that that is not what they're doing. So there's this, I think, not just sex, but sexual tension, something forbidden, a forbidden fruit. Then you've got her journals, right? You've got all of this writing. It's like listening, it's like literally listening to the inner thoughts of just, you know, someone that's just a murderer. And full of lust and revenge. And then you have, I think that's pretty much what I've got,

you know, but I do see why I grab, you know, the nations, if not the world's attention. And then you have, as you point out, she was on the stand for so many days where I feel like, yeah, attorneys now would be like, you just sit down and don't talk. It was definitely a spectacle. Yeah, it was a spectacle. And the prosecution, right, like the whole thing, it was all, it was like theater. Yes. The prosecutors were like so over the top, right? The whole thing was like theater.

Yeah. And they're both disbarred. the prosecutor and the defense attorney and it's all a lot of it had to do with this trial. I mean, it's just, you like couldn't write this as a more like made for TV movie than what happened here. So, I mean, yeah, there was just so many aspects of that. Dr. John, your analysis is really interesting for me to hear that, especially the part about the revenge and how addictive that is. Because I hadn't heard that before. It makes perfect sense.

But I think that there was a lot of that at play here. Yeah, for sure. I think definitely revenge is what's driving this. revenge over being rejected, right, and having to deal with the shame and humiliation of that rejection. And the protralion. What's that? Well, yeah. I didn't know you're still going, John.

Sorry. Oh, and she has this fantasy of perfect love, this fantasy of marrying him. In spite of all their ups and downs and their turmoil and their relationship, she still clings to this fantasy. And she's apparently had these fantasies since high school, right? Because she's showing up at boyfriends, homes, when they're. they're dating other people. I mean, this is not, this is a pattern here. And I think it begins, it begins with, I would say it begins with probably insecure attachment going back to her childhood. Yeah. Maybe there's some childhood trauma, but it's, this is, this predates Travis, I think,

to a large degree. Yeah. Yeah. We didn't quite know that. I mean, I'm glad we interviewed the high school classmate because that gave some insight right there that this was a pattern. And we didn't really know. especially because at least one of her boyfriends took the stand former boyfriends who said she was never a problem and they had a good relationship and things like that but I think you know maybe that was somebody that wasn't rejecting her therefore she had more control and more power and it wasn't as enticing but yeah no I thought that was interesting too and then Lauren what you were saying the brutality I mean I still it's still shocking to me how somebody of

her stature and kind of petite nature could could go that far and do that much in that bathroom. I think also the ability to see that someone might look non-threatening and sweet and yet can be capable of such brutality. I think that's part of the fascination with Jodi Arias because that happens too. John has talked about when when there are female stalkers or where there are, it gets harder to believe, you know, nobody believes, you know, people when it's a beautiful petite woman that's coming after them.

And so I think that's part of this intrigue too. And I also, yeah, the brutality of it. And then another thing I was going to mention, and actually I just forgot it, what were you going to say, John? And I'm going to think of this. I had a question for Brianna. The stereotype of females or women being meek and passive, right?

It challenges all of that. And I think people struggle with that. People struggle with the idea that women and females can be violent in general. There's definitely stereotypes around that. And I think so this is playing into that too because it violates that stereotype and people who are fascinated could, how is it possible that a female can commit this kind of violence, right?

It doesn't fit the model we're used to. I think it was struggled with that too. Like when they were in, even if they believed, I mean, that was the overwhelming feeling I got from the two we talked to was like, there were jurors who were like, she's a, she's a girl. She's a young girl. She couldn't do this. How can we possibly put a young girl to death? Like, that was also part of it.

Yeah, that was fascinating to hear the, sort of the jurors' hearts, you know, making this ultimate decision about someone's life. Yes. The thing that I also want to mention to you, you mentioned the ex-boyfriend and how he got on the stand and he said, I never saw this. I want to point out that Travis Alexander also defended her. to his friends, his girlfriends that saw red flags. They said that. This is in your documentary. It was fascinating.

They saw these red flags. And they went to Travis. And they said, we have some serious concerns. And he laughed. And he said, they said, you're going to end up dead. And he laughed. He goes, you don't know her like I do. She would never hurt me.

And I think that was also such a heartbreaking thing about this case, too, is Jodyarius has overshadowed Travis Alexander the victim who was brutally murdered who actually defended her and said just like the ex-boyfriend on the stand said she would never hurt anyone he could have been that ex-boyfriend on the stand before his murder I think saying she had never ever done anything and then what's even so heartbreaking not only was he brutally murdered by this woman he was an accused of abusing her and domestic violence and it was sort of like this last minute idea of hers oh okay so I am going to say I did it But I had to because I was protecting himself. I mean, talk about being re-victimized on the stand, not being able to stand up for yourself

after death and having his family have to hear these things about him. I think that she did wear a mask and she did it for that ex-boyfriend on the stand too. Because Travis was once that ex-boyfriend also defending her. That was a point I wanted to make. No, you're right. And that was a thing. And he even got mad at those at Clancy and Sky, the friends, for, for, you know, they actually like kind of distanced themselves for a bit from Travis during that time

because of it. And like obviously in this documentary, it's a certain amount of time and we're going to release some podcast episodes that will dive more into this too. But that was kind of the issue with them was like, look, we really don't think that you're safe here. And there was that quote from Sky in the documentary that was like, I thought it was Jody, but I didn't want it to be because of what that would mean for Travis because he had spent these years defending her and that he, really didn't think she was capable of this. I thought that was that was super interesting. And to go along with this in terms of revictimizing the family and the friends in there, one thing that's not in the documentary, but it is in the podcast. I mean, during the sentencing

phase when they all got up and spoke, Travis's family and everything, and then Jody spoke to try to basically spare her life, she held up a shirt that says Survivor and was like, All proceeds from this shirt is going to go to domestic violence survivors. And some people might not think that I'm one, but I'm a survivor. And it's just like, oh, my God. I mean, to pull that out, too, at the end of hour after, and you're the killer, is wild behavior, in my opinion. That's so over the top. And again, but she's doing, so she's bringing in this abuse, excuse defense, let's call it that, right?

And again, so she's playing on the stereotype that it's true that in most domestic violence, relationships, when there are murders from the females in those relationships, typically it's reactive violence. So it is often, the majority of the time, it's violence that's responding to or reacting to some type of abuse, some type of ongoing long-term abuse. And it's right. And so it becomes a response to that of sorts. And so she's totally playing on that stereotype again. Yep. Yeah. And she's playing, she's switching, she's becoming the victim. You know, it's actually interesting to think about if this, if this happened today, you know,

given the polarized world we live in and given that this, all these knee-jerk reactions today about over anything, about revenge and kind of taking sides, you have to, I wonder, I wonder if things would be significantly different in terms of getting a lot of people to raise. valley around Jody with, right, this whole, this whole abuse, excuse defense. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. There are a lot of, yeah, sides taken in crime these days. Are they guilty? Are they innocent?

And there's a lot of, there are a lot of documentaries now that are take that approach, you know, revisiting a crime of a convicted felon to say, well, maybe, maybe not. That's sort of a thing right now in 2025. And so, yeah, you're right. You know, well, and, you know, Jody is coming up for an appeal and it'll be interesting to see what happens there. That's currently in this appeal process. Yeah. Yeah. And her, her attorneys are, I mean, very, very tight-lipped. They were not happy. We were doing this project at all. And I, yeah, they don't want anything out there. And I think, you know, and you never know. I mean, the way that these trials go. And because that one was so complicated. kid and there is so much to it. I think people are a little worried that you don't know what

they'll find, that could be on illegality, you know, things like that. And yeah, she, she is going forward with appeals. And I think she'll continue to do so. John, what do you think, though, about that specific move of her, I can't believe that. You said it'll be in your podcast of her then saying, hey, donate money to survivors of domestic abuse. What a move at the end there? It's despicable. It's manipulative. It's manipulative. It's false. You know, there's not a shred of evidence that I'm aware of that shows that Travis was abusive to her in any way.

If you're going to say you were abused, give me some evidence. Like, were there previous calls to police from her? Right? She didn't even, why didn't she, people again, they bring up, why did, the abuse was never reported. The murder wasn't reported. If she was being so brutally harmed, or abused, you would think someone would know about it,

a close friend of Travis, right? Nobody heard about any abuse in this relationship. Never, not that I know of it. It didn't seem like Jody kept a lot of girlfriends. At least none that came out of the woodwork, but no, I mean, not one person seemed to be able to point to any sort of, oh, she told me this. I mean, I think the only thing people could say

was they had a volatile relationship, they had a toxic relationship, It was, you know, that kind of cat and mouse type situation, but abuse, not one person had evidence of that. John, why is revenge, you sort of touch on it, like go deeper. Why is revenge so addictive? Yeah, I didn't know that either, that revenge is that addictive to human beings. My guess is, so I just started the book and I'm starting to dive into some of the research myself because it's going to have an impact on my work. So I want to know more about it. But there's some studies like, you know, of the brain, showing that the brain reacts to this desire for revenge

in much the same way that it reacts to different addictions. And I presume it has something to, I presume it's part of its evolutionary in the sense that when human beings were trying to survive many thousands of years ago, that there would have been some benefit to if if humans, if human small tribes were being invaded by other groups, that it seems like there'd be some benefit to protecting the tribe and to maybe retaliating in some way. If it meant, right, if it's a choice of getting annihilated by another group, you're going to have to respond if you want to survive, right? So I think there's probably something very primitive and instinct, distinctive about revenge that's over time.

has probably been hardwired into us and also just the idea of even going back from an evolutionary standpoint of if groups have certain hierarchies right and people in these hierarchies are leaders and they have big egos right and that but like part of leading us a tribe might be having some narcissistic traits or features and having a big ego so that you could take risks and you can lead the group, right? And so I think- You're saying politicians and leaders might be narcissistic. That could be, yeah, that could be an evolutionary vestige from the past that we kind of deal with, unfortunately, yeah, a side effect. But my point is that given that type of scenario,

challenges to those leaders are going to be frowned upon. And they're going to be seen as to some degree as maybe threatening the group, right? And so I think a natural response for people in power in these small groups would be revenge, that anybody that challenges these people with big egos, right? There seems like there'd probably be some desire to punish the people that are doing that challenging or trying to usurp their power. And so I think it's easy to imagine that over time, over the span of hundreds or thousands of years, that human beings really kind of develop this instinctive response to rejection and to be challenged and to ego, right, challenges of our ego and our identities in some ways.

Yeah. Is it the, is it the, oh, go ahead. Brianna. Yeah. No, no, I was fascinated by that. Yeah. Is the revenge part of this, if it was for revenge, is that the brutality of the crime? Because she could have, you could have gotten revenge and hurt him or killed him. I mean, that sounds bad. Like, you should never kill someone out of revenge, but like, this is so brutal. Yeah. Well, the rejection. Think of it as Travis is the culmination of years.

and years of, I would guess, years and years of kind of the stalking behavior. Maybe there's some other history of rejection where she's acting like this. At least we know this goes back to high school. So think of Travis is like the culmination of that because he, he's someone that she really feels close to. She feels very attached to him. She wants to marry him. Right.

Like he becomes the culmination of all that. And so she's pinning all our hopes and dreams on this guy. And then he rejects her. You know, the natural response to that is rage. She's just enraged that he could do this. She's humiliated. Totally. And so I think you're right.

Like the nature of the crime obviously reflects, reflects that rage. And the goal ultimately, according to Malloy, with this linking fantasy, this narcissistic linking fantasy, the goal is to restore some. semblance of normality. In other words, it's to try to put that fantasy back in place. And the way, and what that means here, I think, is that Jody has this sense of entitlement, right? She has the sense that she possesses Travis to some degree. So the way she's trying to restore this fantasy by murdering him is to kind of reinstate or to feel that sense of entitlement again.

If he's deceased, then she feels once again, like she possesses him, like she owns him, right? And here's an example. This is from, this was in the documentary. This is a quote by Jody after the murder. She says, and this is, this shows the fantasy I'm talking about. She says, quote, this is from one of her journals. Travis was by my bedside this morning. I feel his presence.

He's dead. Right. But she's saying that. sense that she's telling us why she's doing it, that she feels, she feels like he's still around, meaning she's not going to get hurt by him anymore. She's restoring the sense of entitlement. And she's by this particular, I'm sure the journal's filled with stuff like this. Yes. She's showing us that she believes she still possesses Travis, even though he's deceased.

Wow. And she wasn't even dating him truly at the time either. Right, exactly. That doesn't. But that kind of speaks to the whole idea, which was mentioned again in the documentary about, I think one of the friends said that her attitude was if she can't have Travis, no one will. It's the same type of, like, once she murders him and believes that she now possesses him because she's the one who did it, then it's kind of game over.

There's no more competition, right? So, I mean, it's, which again speaks to revenge. Part of revenge is trying to eliminate threats and competition. Wow. Wow. That's so interesting. And she's just, something I was thinking about when you were saying this to you, started to say entitlement.

And then it reminded me of Lauren, your questions with like the kind of craziness of this whole thing and like my takeaway. One thing that didn't make it in the documentary that I think goes right along with this, when I was going through and looking at old footage of anything, the way we did it was We went back in these like tape decks and anything that was labeled Jody or Travis. We went through it. And one of the things that happened back then in 2008 was they had inmate idol. I saw this name and I was like, what?

And I mean, I kid you not. A full American Idol, anmate idol, a full American Idol competition in the Maricopa County Jail system here. Joe Arpio was sheriff at the time. He was the Simon Cowell. Then it was during Christmas. There was like a Christmas Elvis and Santa that were the judges. And literally inmates from all different backgrounds, all different charges from murder to, you know, whatever else assault, were singing Christmas carols for inmate idol. And lo and behold, of course, Jody, right there singing, oh holy night.

And she won. She won the competition. And I cannot believe that that happened. But she seemed just so excited to be there to perform. You heard it in the documentary. She wanted Travis to see her seeing. She wanted her to be him to be proud of her. And this just seemed to continue on this kind of entitlement.

Like I'm going to, you know, I'm going to sing in front of people. I'm going to win even into her arrest in jail. That's a great example of exactly what I've been talking about. Like the fact that she thinks, I mean, it brings up a lot of other issues. Like she's clearly like super attention seeking. But this idea that she's singing for Travis when he's deceased. I mean, yeah, that's the fantasy part. That's what's driving all of this.

Like, it's the fantasy, even going back to high school, it's the fantasy of somehow reuniting with this guy that broke up with her. Now she's outside his window, right? Like it's, so in some fundamental ways, I think, if you go back a little bit, and I appreciate the fact that your documentary picked up on these little pieces because it's been a while since I've thought about Jodiari. I didn't really cover it very much. It's fair.

Yeah. I didn't really dive into it because it seemed a little over the top even for me back then. But I had other work like I wasn't, we weren't doing a podcast back then. I had like work to go into prisons. Talk to inmates that I was trying to, you know, protect in the, protect the community from some of these people. So, but your documentary did did a beautiful job of pulling out those little strands, those little threads that help make sense of Jody and why this occurred.

Yeah. And I'm looking forward to knowing there's going to be more on the podcast as well. Yeah. A bit more. Yeah. Yeah. We'll make sure to have links to the documentary as well as your bonus podcast link. in the description of this episode. But wow, wow, wow.

By the way, if Simon Cowell was involved, is there any footage of the inmate idol? Oh, holy night, the stars are brightly shining. It is the night of our dear Savior's birth. Long lay the world in sin in it till he appeared and the same. soul felt its work. There is a, there's a full news package actually about it and it was just craziness. Like, like I mean, to the point where one of the lines, the reporter track lines was like,

some of these inmates singing about a special child this season, though in here for child sex crimes. And I was like, oh my, what is going on? I could not believe what I was hearing. The whole thing, the whole thing, the fact that I was, even existed as an event like again would that happen today no what it and even the access into the jails too like yeah just like people in there for first degree murder out of their cells singing in front of people like i just it was stunning to me so yes there is footage i can send it to you i want it yes i'd love that footage actually please do please do um wow wow wow what did you learn so what was your um you know

you delved into Jody Arias. Of course, you knew about her, as you pointed out. You were older when the trial happened. You were starting to listen to true crime, delve into true crime. Now you're a true crime correspondent. Look at you now. What would you tell your younger self watching the Jody Arias trial? But what's your biggest takeaway delving into this in 2025?

Any changes to your thoughts on this case? Anything you learned? Yeah. I mean, I think at the time when I, you know, back then, even in 2013, I saw it for a high profile trial and kind of thought that was the norm for the way that things were broadcast. I think now I learned just how much an obsession with something can change the trajectory of it. And in this case, not only Jody, but even really just the fanfare around it, I think it kind of goes to show that. I don't think Jody is stupid at all. I think she's actually very smart.

And I think the way that she was able to manipulate people and kind of put on this like good girl type act worked. And I think it worked on a lot of people, including maybe even her defense team, other people who were interested in her as a person. And I think that that goes to show just how powerful the tactic of manipulation, can be. And I think listening to a lot of the people talk about this case, even like, you know,

I first really liked her or I first thought this and then it all changed. I feel like though she had some success in terms of the endearing nature that she was able to portray on to people that were still sucked in. Whether they liked her or not, they were sucked in. And I think it just goes to show how powerful that can be for people who are not even involved in the case, but were so obsessed with it too just because of the way that she was. I think the way that she was made this the case that it was. And to me that was very interesting and stunning to see. Yeah. Yeah. And it brings a double meaning to the title of your documentary, obsessed unraveling Jody Arias. She was obsessed with Travis Alexander, but people were obsessed with

her and her trial and her crimes. So years. later, we're all still talking about it. An obsession, by the way, if you go back, even before Travis, obsession is a big part of stalking. So it's the title is perfect. I'm glad. And I'm glad to hear your guys' analysis too. Just I mean, you are truly the first people to see it

outside of any of us who have worked on it. And so to get your guys' take two on some moments that stuck out to you or things that you noticed, that was really interesting to me, because I've seen it now a bunch of times. to be able to go back and kind of analyze that and hear what you guys are, your takeaways to, just in general from the journalism reporting aspect and then the psychological aspect is, is really, really fascinating to me. So I appreciate you guys taking the time to watch it and to give me your opinions too.

Yeah, thank you. Well, thank you for the work you're doing. It's been actually fun to watch you. We've just, I've just known you for like a year now and I love watching what you're doing out there. It's so exciting. I'm like, look at this next project, Brianna's doing. It's really neat. You're an exceptional journal.

list. You're doing great work out there. And so tell us where we can find this documentary, where we can find your podcast, and what you're up to next. Perfect. So you can find the documentary on Roku, on YouTube, and then it'll air on television in Arizona, obviously just for one night, Saturday night, three TV and CBS 5. But for people who are searching it, YouTube for sure, and then Roku. True Crime, Arizona is the podcast. And every other week, we're we're going to be coming out with another episode on this and it'll be a six part i guess a six episode season so to speak on the podcast that dives into everything even more and anywhere people listen to podcast your crime arizona um apple Spotify they can go listen there and then you know

we have some ideas floating around for our next documentary i'm going to be doing some research over the holidays but also um like going to take a nap after this one it's been uh it's been a crazy kind of We went really, I mean, we were shooting this during the Lori Valo Daybell trial here. So we kind of went straight from that trial. In between that and the sentencing, we were shooting most of these interviews and the B-roll, did the sentencing, wrote the documentary, and then I've been editing it for the past few months. So it's just been like, go, go, go, go. And I know you guys know how that is because you're constantly traveling and doing stuff.

So I'm looking forward to like a little, a little break during the holidays and then back at it. But we have some ideas for our next documentary. and I think that people would be really into them. So I just got to kind of do some more research on that. Okay. Wonderful. Well, thank you, Brianna. We're looking forward to seeing your next project then, seeing where this goes.

John, anything else do you want to say about Jody Arias or us? Whatever? Anything else you want to say? Are you hungry? What's for lunch? Yeah, I am a little hungry. But I would encourage people to watch the documentary. and listen to the podcasts and support Brianna because she does great work. So thank you.

Thanks, guys. I really appreciate all that you guys do too and have learned a lot. And it's been really fun to get to collaborate like this now after meeting each other. So I so enjoy just getting to share this industry with you guys. Yeah. Thank you, Brianna. Thank you so much for being here. We'll see you. Bye-bye. Thank you. I knew about investing, but I really didn't know how to go about it. Meet Corey, a Walthfront client. With Welfront, it could put money in. would automatically distribute it into a diversified portfolio. Then it starts to compound.

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