Hidden True Crime - The Woman Lori Vallow Daybell Couldn’t Intimidate | Nancy Jo Hancock Speaks Out

Episode Date: July 28, 2025

In one of the most powerful moments of Lori Daybell’s Arizona trial, witness Nancy Jo Hancock turned to the woman on trial, and delivered a line that stunned the courtroom: “Don't Flatter Yourself.” Now, for the first time, Nancy Jo sits down with Hidden True Crime to share why she felt compelled to speak out, what it was like to testify against Lori, and what she learned while talking with Charles Vallow. About Hidden True Crime: What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/hiddentruecrime Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Terms apply. See site for details. You spent your whole date, getting to know each other, talking about me. don't flatter yourself no we did not spend the whole time talking about you hello hidden jams i have a very special guest here today and i'm sure you guys know exactly who this lady in red is this is the woman the myth the legend nancy joe hancock and uh we have an interview we're going to do with you today um before i give you the stages are asking you a lot of questions i'm going to say a few things, which I'm sure everyone is mad at right now because we've been dying to hear from you and they're going to say, shut up, Lauren, let her talk. But I just want to say a few things about this

amazing woman. She has been taking care of us. There are things behind the scenes that you guys don't know, like Nancy Johancock bringing us dinner, giving me clothes that I can wear when I didn't have enough clothes here. Thank you for letting me borrow some earrings today. Nancy Joe has helped me with my cough. This clove oil is your suggestion and has genuinely worked. You dry heave when you take it. Yeah. The price you pay. But I'm not coughing. Like, look, listen to me. Have you heard me cough since you've arrived? And I've been, I have not taking it. She's an amazing woman. And she is a caretaker. And I just want to say thank you to you too for how you have helped Grayson and myself, while we have been away from home. And we have enjoyed.

many gossip sessions and laughs and you're just, I can say that on the stand, she's, she's incredible and behind the scenes, she's also incredible. So I just want to thank you. And I also know that you were, well, a couple things I noticed. You were not planning to do an interview. And I want to ask you why that you changed your mind. But before we get there, I also want to ask you this. The sentencing of Lori Valadeva, hopefully the final one, hopefully never have to see her again,

happened this week on Friday. And I noticed, and I mentioned it, that while Lori was giving her gobbly, Gook statement, whatever it is, I don't know if it's a statement or a, you know,

a rant or a speech, whatever we call it, you walked out of the courtroom. And I, so you're in the front row because you sit with your dear friend Kay Woodcock and others, right? Or you're in the second third girl. You're near the front where the media is pushed to the very back.

And I'm in the back and I was on the aisle. And so as you walked out, I made eye contact with you. And we looked at each other and you walked out. And I felt like I knew exactly why you walked out. I feel like it was confirmed when right after Lori ended her gobbly gook. It was over. and the bailiff let you right back in and you went and you sat right back in. So was that what I think it is?

And well, her, you know, the constitution crap was pretty disgusting and irritating and annoying. But when she got to the, you know, if I had any, if I had anything to say, I would say I'm sorry, but I didn't do anything wrong. So I'm not going to say I'm sorry. And I just thought if the only person. person you listen to in this entire thing was your son Colby speaking from the hospital about how he has lost his mother, his father, his brother, and his sister, and how he fought to stay alive because the pain was so great. If that's the only person you listen to, Lori, how did you not say something to your son? I couldn't sit there. I just, I would have said

something and I would have known I would have gotten kicked out of the court and fortunately the person next to me stopped me from saying something and I I just had to walk out I just I couldn't listen to I couldn't listen to what she was saying it was so pious and arrogant and disgusting and evil and narcissistic and I I couldn't sit there a silent protest of sorts it was the only thing I could do. But it was, yeah, was my silent protest. Yeah, that makes sense. And it makes sense. And I, and I knew when you looked at me, you knew why I was leaving. Yeah, we looked at each other. We had a moment and I knew. And you knew that I knew. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, I was proud of you. I was proud of Aunt Vicky, who at the very end got the final word in. Yes. Yeah. Right. I think,

what did she say? I hope you. Rotten prison. Rotten prison. And Vicky, well played. Well played. Well, played. Ladder yourself with that. that one. Can I tell you a little secret? Please. When I was walking out, I said to the boss lady of the courtroom something about what she said and she goes, I sure wish I hadn't had to say that to her.

I think she wanted to say rotten prison to Lori as well, but that was her job. Right, right. And for those that know who Nancy Joe Hancock is, I know she needs like no introduction, but for those who don't know,

Nancy Johancock was a witness in the trial for it was the Lori Valladaybill trial. Lori Daibel, she likes to be known now as married to Chad Dayball, but it was the trial for the murder of Charles Ball. She's had three now. And you're one of the first witnesses or soon on the stand because you were one of the last people to ever talk to Charles Valo. It was a first date or an introduction. you met online. We're going to get all into that. Don't you?

We're going to learn everything. There is to know about that single date that led you seven years later or six years, five years later to be testifying at a murder trial. It wasn't on my bucket list or my bingo card that would ever happen. Yeah, we all have online dating stories, right? But not all of us. No one will ever top mine, ever. None of us have a, yeah, there's this one date.

And now I am fighting for justice for this man that I didn't know. And you're, and I want to say. thank you for that too you might have had one date with him you might have known him for one day but what you have done for him you should be very proud it was the right thing to do yeah i would hope that if the situation were reversed someone would do that for me it was the right thing to do it was um and then what i want to ask before we get into all of those details and and we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna get into it there's a lot more there are a lot more tax there's a lot of info there's a little bit of tea i i want to know why you have chosen to finally do an interview i

know when we first met you said look um we became friends you said i don't want to interview which we respected we understood and i'm honored that you're sitting with me right now thank you um but can you share um your intent well a couple of reasons um i thought the notoriety would go away. First of all, I had no idea the notoriety would come. Really didn't even let, even my best friend didn't even know I was going to testify that day. Some of my kids didn't know I was going to testify that day. And I honestly thought that I would go testify and I would go home and it would be done. And I went from April of 2020 until March of 2025 without hearing from one person about Charles Valo Kaye. Besides, I was texting with Kay just as a friend.

Yeah, absolutely. It was her brother. But I heard from no police, nobody. And so I just thought, okay, I guess they don't need what I have. But I didn't intend to have notoriety. I didn't want to have notoriety. And I felt like if I just did a good job, on the witness stand and went home that would there would be no notoriety but I mean I've been in a Disneyland bathroom washing my hands and have people go are you Nancy Johan are you serious I've been walking in the day don't flatter yourself I've been in Target having someone walk in and stop me and say I used to be a judge and an an attorney and you were the best witness I've ever seen on a stand and I mean that was just a few days

ago, it hasn't gone away. And as I've watched Lori decimate the church that I love that I belong to, I finally decided that I had unique opportunities stand up for my church. That's beautiful. That's a beautiful intention. And I decided if this weird fame that came that I really don't want, and I think it's bizarre. But if it came, that I wanted to stand up and I wanted to say, for those that think the things that Lori Vallow spews out of her evil mouth are the things that the people of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe, it is not. We are normal Christians.

We believe the things that most Christians believe. I know there's a few additional things, but we believe that we have a Heavenly Father. and Jesus Christ is our Savior and that he died for our sins. And the things that Lori says are not what the people of the Church of Jesus Christ, the Latter of Saints believe. And I think that the way that evil triumphs is for good people to stand by and do nothing. And so I don't want to stand by and do nothing.

I bet that has been really hard for you for the last five, six years watching. Lori Valadee, be a representative, something you love so much. Well, she thinks she's a representative and a lot of people online think she's a representative. But the things that she believes and the evil that she has done,

she is not a representative. She is not a representative of the church that I was raised in and that I love. She's not. Thank you. I admire that. And I would like to talk a little bit more

about that later in this interview too, but that's okay with you. Okay. Now to some tea. I'll take a drink too. Okay. The clove oil is working. I'm so glad. So far so good. It burns, but it works. It burns, but works. So I would like to know, take me back to first meeting Charles. Can I hear a little bit about how you met and how this first date came to be? So first and only, I guess. As I said, I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And there's a couple of sites.

They're not sponsored by the church, but they are for other, four members of the church to meet each other and date other members of the church that have similar beliefs. And he made a profile on there. I believe that he told me Kay made it for him, if I'm not mistaken. because she wanted him to move past Lori and get out there and date. That makes sense with the timeline if that's true because she knew that Lori had left and he was alone and yes, probably wanted him to see options. Yes. And so the first day that he was on there, he sent me a message and I returned the message.

And I mean, he was funny. He was funny and clever. And, you know, we exchanged a few messages. He asked my phone number. And, you know, I broke my, I don't give anyone your phone number until you know more about them, rule. And I gave him my phone number.

And he was that charming. He was. He was. He was. He was. Yeah. And, you know, we started texting and talking. And, I mean, he was Johnny on the spot on a text.

If you text him, you've got to text right back. And I don't know how he still did business because he, Text me a lot. I'm sure I know he was still doing business. He was in meetings and, you know, he might have said, you know, I'll text you when I get out of this meeting. But he was attentive and charming and funny and witty and corny jokes and and kind and very kind. And, you know, I, I had some, he was sending me pictures of himself and his family. And, you know, I, when I reached out to Kay after he was murdered, I had pictures. on my phone of JJ that Kay didn't have. And so I was able to share those with her. And she was very proud dad. He was a proud dad. JJ was the love of his life.

Anybody else that was in his life would have played second fiddle to JJ. He loved. And he, you know, Cole and Zap have not been talked about a lot. And he was very proud of Colin Zapp. He loved those older boys as well. And he loved him. He expressed some regrets about letting

letting Lori kind of interfere with some of the closeness that he wish he would have had with them. Interesting. And also seeing how she had treated Joe Ryan while acknowledging his flaws now that he was watching how she was treating him. Have no fear. Chosen Foods is here to defend your favorite foods from the forces of seedy oils and sketchy ingredients. With cooking oils, salad dressings, and mayo, all powered by the good fats for 100% pure avocado oil and simple delicious ingredients. Chosen foods.

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I know there was a lot after. I talked about, we talked for hours long. I mean, hours and hours and hours. Everything from baseball to growing up in Louisiana, his childhood, his first marriage is why they didn't work. I mean, he was an open book. He didn't have secrets. He was, and he talked a mile a minute really fast. And with his southern accent, it was pretty cute. I had to interpret some things and have him go back and repeat it once in a while. But he just, he was, he was fun to talk to.

It was really fun to talk to. I bet. I really enjoy his. siblings. So I can imagine how funny. He was a good storyteller. Yeah. So you're having this nice friendship, texting, sharing about your lives. How did the first date come about? What did he? Well, from, so he was in Houston and he was coming into Arizona. And I knew from when we started talking when he was coming to Arizona that it would be July 10th. And from the time we started talking, He said that he wanted to, you know, meet that night when he got here.

He was originally supposed to come in at like 4.30 or 5 and be in Arizona much sooner. And he said that he would come pick me up and take me to dinner. Another rule that I don't usually let someone come pick me up. Right. But I was going to let him to come pick me up. When his flight got delayed, he said, you know, hey, why don't you just meet me there so that, you know. So he, you know, we met somewhere close by his hotel so that he could just go change and come meet at the hotel. When I, when I got there, I texted him, are you here? And he said, no, I'm almost there.

And he said, you'll recognize me because I'm in the Hawaiian shirt. We'd had a conversation. That's a whole other story about how bad I hate Hawaiian shirts. And, and he said, I hate Hawaiian shirts. I'm always like, why? I got a story about Hawaiian shirts for you, but I won't. That's for another time. But it's fair because he lived in Hawaii, but yes. But not on a date. No, on the beach in Hawaii, not on a date. Yeah, yeah. I have to agree with you.

Anyway, and he said, yes, and I have pink high tops on. This is also to be a text. And I said, I think I'm suddenly sick. Anyway, that was just, you know, that's the kind of banter. You know, he's texting. And so he came in and, you know, we sat down and he ordered a big steak. And, you know, we ordered a dinner. And we're talking.

And literally, I look. around and I'm like, there's nobody else in this restaurant. Oh. And it's after 10 o'clock and they were closed. And they're literally the whole people, everyone there is waiting for us to leave. I'm like, I think we should probably leave. So, you know, he gets the check and he, you know, sorry guys. You know, he's just, you know, charming to that as well and so nice.

And, you know, he said, I'm going to tip him extra. We kept him late, you know. And it was July in Arizona and we walked outside. And, you know, we stood just by the bed of my truck and talked for like 45 minutes more. And, you know, then after he left, you know, we text for another 45 minutes or so more. I think when I looked at the text messages, the last text message between he and I was around midnight that night. So we were texting until midnight and then he was murdered at like 7.30 the next morning. So you had you had a nice time.

It was it was friendly. It was nice enough that like you guys end the date and you keep. Yes. Until midnight. Yeah. What did he tell you? We're going to get to that morning, but what did he tell you about the next morning? Like he said he was in town and he was going to see JJ, right?

Yes. What did he say was going to happen the next morning? Well, he told me that he was going to get JJ and he was going to take him back to his hotel for breakfast. I know that Lori has talked about that he was taking him to Burger King, but he told me that the next morning he was getting him at 7.30 and the reason he was getting him so early because his school didn't start until 8.30.

That wouldn't make sense because he did arrive early. He arrived early at the house. Yeah. And so he told me he was taking him back to have breakfast at his hotel. That's what his intention was to go get him early. and he was so excited to see him. He wanted to spend some time with him before he took him to school. It makes sense.

He's coming into town. He gets to see his little boy. Yes. And let's spend some quality time before I take you to school at 830. Yes. And that's so sweet. And so did he say that JJ just like the hotel or is that just sort of his plan? I'm going to take him back.

That's just what he told me he was going to do. He just said that, you know, that's why he was going so early was, you know, that's what his plan was to go so early. So that he had, you know, an hour. for to feed him and to get him to school. And that didn't happen. But, um, let me try. He tried.

So the next day, obviously you're not knowing what's happening. But did you, were you guys in touch? Did you try to text you before he went? Or did you text him at all? Or what, what happened? I, I text him at about 10, 10.30 to see how his morning with Joshua, JJ. And didn't get a response. which was weird because as I told you he was you know right back with the text and so I thought gosh

that's weird and um you know but I just thought I knew that he had flown Lori's brother Adam in to try to do some kind of intervention he knew that too he told you that too oh yes okay well we're gonna have to talk about this day you guys covered a lot around we've been talking for a week so we covered a lot of ground over the week but we covered a lot of ground on that night So you even knew that he was flying Adam in intervention with Lori. Yes. Wow. Yes.

I knew. I mean, he told me about the videos that he, that she had been filming herself dancing every night and emailing them to Chad. He had told you about the dancing videos. Yes. He told me about the dancing videos. He had discovered those. Which came up in the victim impact statements.

You know, the dancing. Yeah. The dancing. Wow. So he told you he found those. saw him. He'd also found the fake email account where Lori was emailing, pretending to be Charles so that she could have, you know, a fling getting him, getting Chad, you know, so that's why

Tammy thought he was coming to Arizona was under a guise of, you know, doing a book for Charles. And Charles had found all of that information as well. He was really opening up to you. I think he was probably looking for anyone to listen, though. Well, yes. And people think it's weird that that he was telling me all of that. Sadly, after years of dating, when you're in the middle of divorce trauma, people divorce trauma dump. And it's pretty normal. No, I agree. My first, my first conversation with John, my John, people joke. They're like, what did you talk about? I'm like, we talked for two of half hours. Both of our past unhealthy relationships. Two different murder cases. Yeah. I mean, everything under the sun because I think, yeah, you're right.

Like, once you've been through it, like, you're like, look, let's just lay it out on the table. Let's lay all the ugly scars out and get that out of the way. But I also want to say, I feel like he was also looking for someone to listen. When you look at all of the old body camp footage and him going to all these people trying to get someone to understand what was going on, I think he felt very alone. I have no doubt he felt very alone. I think he felt very unheard. and I know that one of my better traits is that I'm a really good listener. And I have found over the years, if you'll sit back and listen to people,

they'll tell you everything you need to know. And so I've developed that quality because you learn if you are interested in dating someone or not, if you sit back and listen. Well said. Well said. Listen more than talk. I'm sure that that was probably a really big relief you gave him on his last night that you heard him. You know, people can say what they want to say.

And I, you know, I testified on the stand. I knew we weren't exclusive. And, you know, it came out during trial that he had, you know, several other dates lined up. And I knew that. But I can't help but think that maybe God had a hand in putting me first because I was a good listener. And I had a good memory.

I mean, I agree. I remembered all of those. things, you know, almost a year later when I was finally interviewed by the police. And then almost six years later when I testified in his trial, I didn't need to review things. I just remembered. Yeah. I just got up there and told the truth about what he had said and what he had told me. And yeah, and I want to say something too. I guys just, you know, I've seen a lot of the texts he sent you. You still have them. And I've seen a lot of them. And that you do, you two did share a lot. I can attest to that. Yep. You guys shared a lot. And it was honest, like,

just like honest things about your lives. Yeah. And he was. And he was honest. We told you about the dancing. Can I say something? Please. So I know that Lori wanted to insinuate that the text messages after dinner were somehow sexual in trial. And Trina Kaye objected to that. And I was like, oh, don't object to that. Because you want to set the record straight. Yeah. That was not. It was not. It was not at all. It was talking about, I was kind of hard on it,

dinner. And, you know, I kind of told it like it was about that he needed to, he needed to make Lori face real life after divorce that, you know,

if she wanted a divorce, yes, she needed to be there for JJ after school, but she should probably get a job while he was in school. And that that needed to be real life. And he was so, so kind about my

realness, but you know, I said, I hope I wasn't you know, I hope I wasn't too hard on you. I think one reason we all like you, Nancy Joe, is you tell it as a good. I do tell it as it. Don't flatter yourself. We'll get to that.

There were no sexy text. Yeah, there were no sexy text. You're right. I'm glad you clarified that because if that's what it sounded like, that isn't. I have seen the text. It was like two friends. It was just two friends talking to each other.

And getting to know each other. And getting to know each other. Yeah, I agree. So you call him the next, or not call him, you text in the next morning. Yes. I've seen this text. It's heartbreaking when you realize that you know what's happened. And what did you, yeah, what did you ask?

You reached out and then. I just wanted to know how's morning with Joshua, with JJ had gone. And then when you didn't hear back, what did you think? I was really confused because I knew the date had gone well. I knew he had said, let's see each other again. I knew how over the week that we had been texting that that was very out of character for him not to return the text. I, like I said, I was very puzzled. And then when he didn't answer my call, around 1.30 when I called, I was even more puzzled.

But, you know, I don't get nervous for first dates because I just figure if someone doesn't like me, that's their first. problem not mine. Sure. And I just thought, well, I guess I read that date wrong. And he, oh, well, you know. Happens. Next. Yeah.

Thank you next. It happens. So I, and I just, it was really confusing, though, because I think I'm a pretty good read of people. And I was very puzzled how, how did I read that so wrong? Sure. Right. Like, yeah, just kind of like, okay, moving on.

but yeah. Wow. But confusing. Yes. So when did you find out that he was murdered? It wasn't for a while because nobody, you weren't in touch with anyone really in his life. I don't watch the news. Right.

The news news news. And so, but I'm a true crime junkie and I always have them. So I am watching, I believe, Dateline, either in December or January. And it's talking about the missing kids. and it's talking about, you know, Lori Vallow and, you know, the missing kids. And all of a sudden, the very picture that he had had on his LDS dating profile

comes on the screen, and it talks about that he was killed and that that was her husband. And I was just like, I mean... Were you alone watching this? I mean, what were you taught? Like, I would have screamed. Like, what was your reaction?

I was just... I paused it and I rewound it and I watched it again and I got my phone and I looked at the dates and I It was a it was an out-of-body experience. It was very weird and I sat with it a few days and and I decided that I would reach out to K because I just thought that was the right thing to do Absolutely. And so is that what you did next? You found K? Yes, I will be honest. I have I have an older message from you. You said you actually don't even remember that you reached out to me, but I do have an older Facebook message and you reached out. And I remember I wrote back and then it just,

there was so much going on. It wasn't right then. It was like, you said you went out with Charles and you had one date with him. And what happened was murdered the next day. And you're with him the day before. And I remember even thinking, I'll be honest, too.

I remember I get a lot of emails. So I remember thinking, I'm going to have to confirm this, right? Like, okay, that almost seems too perfect that someone was with him the night before. And I'm like, oh, I mean, I believed you, but I was like, you know, you always have to do the confirming.

I don't think you reached back to him. I think I did. I think I did. But then you didn't reach back out. I don't know. Well, you know, at least, you know what? At least I was really bothered by how horribly Lori was talking about Charles and speaking about Charles.

and I knew what she was saying was not true. And I was torn between wanting nothing to do with the Lori Vello ridiculousness, insaneness, and wanting to set the record straight that that's not true. So I guess I did reach out to you. I watched from afar quietly everything that went on, obviously, for anyone that thinks, that they wouldn't do that.

If you went out with someone and they were murdered the next morning, you would follow the case. Absolutely. I've heard some people be like, oh, she just wanted to insert herself. It wasn't your fault that you went out with this guy that was murdered the very next morning. And you guys opened up to each other. And also, if I wanted to insert myself, I could have reached out to any number of shows. Oh, absolutely. I've been interviewed.

And I did not. You had not interviewed with a single person and you showed up on the stand. Right. And then you haven't for many months after that. So I was watching after I did my interview in Vinny Politan on whatever the name of his show. Court TV. I have covered this trial for all these years. How did I not know about Nancy Joannecock?

Hi, Benny. It was just, it was so funny because, you know, there were several people that are like, where did this woman come from? How do we not know about her? Like, I just laid low and kept. Right. You would be the exact opposite of someone that wanted attention. No, as I recall the message, it was, hey, by the way, you weren't looking for an interview

or anything. You had, you had information for me. You're like, hey, I want you to know. He was really nice. That's what I remember. Yeah. You weren't saying, I want to talk or speak up. You were just like, hey, FYI, like, I know some stuff.

I just wanted him to not be portrayed like he was being portrayed. It just felt so unfair. It just felt very unfair. Yeah. Absolutely. So that's how you learned about it. You reached out to Kay and yeah. And Kay asked me if the police had reached out to him.

And, you know, I watch enough true crime shows to think that I was the last person that saw him alive. And you had texted him? Like you had texted so they might know to reach out. How would they not see my text? How would they not? I know that he texts with Adam after me because I've seen that through the trials. He was texting with Adam that when he got there that Alex's truck was there.

But I mean, from midnight to 7.30 the next morning, how many other texts? messages could there be so do we think that Lori deleted your text because she had his phone or was he or was he deleting him so that no one saw him i don't know now i'm speculating it doesn't matter i don't know it doesn't matter but it is surprising that the police didn't reach out to well i know that kay asked the police repeatedly to reach out to me and then they finally did well i reached out to them and they still didn't and then they left another message and then they finally did. But they only did kind of interview and they told me they would

contact megan and then they never did. That's it. So then how did this all come together then for you to testify? Was it Trina K? Four weeks before the trial started, I heard from Trina K. So you were just, so there was no, you were just somebody that sort of the police passed over. It wasn't that big a deal. Yeah. You know, you reached out to me years ago just like FYI, he's a really nice guy. That's how I remember the message. That's it. And then all of a sudden, four weeks before this

massive trial, you get a call. Yes. And was it, was it Trina Kay? It was a text, but yes, it was Trina K. And she asked if she could meet with me the next day. And so we met the next morning. And it was about an hour, maybe an hour and a half. And we went over the phone interview that I'd had had with Detective Moffitt in 2020. So, you know, five years ago. And when I got up to leave, I said, you're going to want me to testify, aren't you? And she said, mm-hmm. And I said, I should have come not dressed nice, right? I said, I should have had to dab, right?

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I don't think anyone had any idea. I should have been a really insignificant witness. And it was Lori that made me a significant witness by how she acted toward me. So I agree. I wanted to ask you about that. You'd seen this woman. You already probably have very strong feelings towards her. And now very strong feelings is an understanding.

Isn't an understanding. And you can share your strong feelings here that, you know, we're good. And then you have to walk up. and be in front of her. Did she tell you what she was going to ask? Like, you know, like, this is the important information you relate. No, nothing. You just.

And so you're up there. Trina Kay asks her questions. And then it's time for cross-exam. And the very woman, the very woman that you know that you believe, we can say no now. No, I knew. You knew killed Charles Valo or conspired to kill him is now cross-examining you, asking you questions. What does you feel up there?

Well, I was nervous. then she started with the do you date married men hypocrisy and then I was just I went from nervous to mad and I was so it was so bizarre that a woman who is on trial who the whole world knows had had had an affair and had murdered her husband and had murdered his wife and had buried her kids in his backyard is asking me if I date married man. I just, it was just so bizarre too much. Well, welcome to the world of Lori Bello-Dabelle where somehow everything's a projection in her world.

Like it is very bizarre. She's the only one that can't see. Questioning that me that way was her undoing because it took me from nervous to math. Yeah. She didn't want to make. me mad. It made me mad. Rightfully so. And so and she brought that, yeah, what was the question?

Was that the question? Do you often, when you said you're, do you, how, do you date married men? Naturally. And then, and then, and then, oh, this was it. Then she said, so all you're saying at your first date, you just talked about me. That's what she said. And then you said, don't flatter yourself. But I'm, that, and was that the kind thing to say right then? I didn't really care what the kind thing to say was. No, what I mean is out of something else you could have said.

Oh, I had, you probably picked, don't flatter yourself. That was probably the kinder response is what I meant. Let me clarify. Yeah. I thought it was brilliant. So did the world. But I bet it could have, I bet something else you could have said. That was the kinder option.

Does that make sense? Well, when she was persisting in what did we talk about, I wanted to say, we didn't talk about anything that you would want to hear. It was nothing that you want to hear me repeat to you. But I instead looked at Judge Boreski and said, can I do a narrative? And he said, let's have a sidebar. So, yeah. I wish I would have driven the train through the open hole that she gave me

because I could have laid down so many unbelievable things. that Charles had told me, oh, that you and Alex were trying to kill him, that you were having an affair with Chad Daybell, that he knew you were sending him videos, that he knew you had written a false email, that he suspected that you had had something to do with Joe Ryan's death. I mean, I could have laid down a lot of things. And, I mean, I guess she did stop me when I was saying nice things about Charles. So I guess she could have stopped me when I was saying those things about her as well. but I might have just kept talking even if she tried to stop me.

Yeah. It was just such a brilliant mic drop moment though when you said that. Don't bother yourself. Well, it wasn't planned. It just came out. No, it was honest. It was just a very honest moment. You're like, dude, don't flatter yourself.

If you really want to go down this path, let's, yeah. Yeah. Right. Well, well done. I think you really, I think having you testify was a shock to hurt you. I think she'd prepared for everything. She didn't prepare for Nancy Johancock, just like we weren't prepared for you.

Everyone was like, wait, who? Nancy Johancock, what? And so I think it did the same thing to her. Well, I purposely did a few things. So I knew I couldn't watch the trial. So I had my good friend watch the trial. But for the purpose of I want to know what she's wearing because I did not want to wear anything close to what she was wearing.

So you're like, just watch the trial and tell me what she wears each day, which is pretty easy because it's on a rotation. But I knew she was wearing dark colors. So I purposely wore pale pink because I wanted to wear something different than she was wearing. And that's really, I mean, I did go back and watch every minute of the trial after I had testified because I knew I could then. But for that purpose. And, you know, I mean, clearly I look very different than Lori. I'm very dark. And, yeah, I mean, you're not blonde.

I'm not blonde. Right. And I don't wear a Shih Tzu ponytail. You have class. I would like to think so. Sometimes. More than her, for sure, always. And you also wear fabulous shoes every day.

I want to say that too. No, thank. Including cowboy food. I do like my shoes. Yeah, because you have a cowboy heritage in you. Some ranch, right? I do. Yeah.

I grew up on a farm, 4-H, and horses. My dad made his life. living with horses my whole life. So did my grandpa. Very proud of my. I'm a cowgirl. We're a tough breed. Maybe that's why I was able to stand up to her on the stand.

I think so. I was raised to. Yeah. I think that shines through in all the right ways. And I say a swear word here, there. But not any of the major one. But she does. Not any of the major ones.

When when they're appropriate. Right. Not any of the major ones though. Yeah. Well, what are the major ones? Just the ones you don't say. You say some good ones. I don't ever drop the F-Bel.

True. And I never take the Lord's name in vain. True. So there's that. Right. But all the good ones. But I mean, I don't know what the, those ones, but like, you land, they land well when you use them. I'll just say that.

You know, you've told me a few other things that you guys talked about. And I just, I want to go back to one thing that I thought. It was interesting. It hit me. Okay. It was about Colby's wedding. Charles talked to you about something about Colby's wedding entirely. So I'll tell you how that conversation came about.

Tell me how the conversation. So Charles was sending me pictures, pictures of himself, pictures of JJ, pictures of his family. And he sent me a picture that was of Colby's wedding. And I knew that he had a daughter. Tiley, we talked about her. But she wasn't in the picture. And so I was very confused looking at this picture.

And so when we talk next, I was like, why isn't it your daughter in the picture? I'm so confused. And he said that she had gone on some kind of a trip. But in his opinion, and this is what he told me, that he thought that Lori had sent her away because he was embarrassed of her. No, no, sorry. Lori had sent her away because she was embarrassed of her. and purposely had her come back after pictures were over. And he...

So she came late to the wedding. Yes. And she was late because Lori wanted her to miss her. That was Charles' opinion. That was Charles' opinion when I was asking him why. Tiley was not in the picture. So sad. And she was so beautiful.

She was so beautiful. Yeah. Charles said that it seemed to him that Charles loved Colby and Tiley. And it seemed to him that when things were going good with Colby, Lori would throw a wrench in it and cause a problem so that there was a problem between he and Colby on purpose. And then she would love coming to the rescue,

that she would come to the rescue. And the same with Tiley. That when things were going good with Tiley and they were getting long, that Lord would throw a wrench into things and then she would ride to the rescue and save the day. I remember you telling me that too. That was a really profound thing that you told me too, that he said that she was always trying to come to rescue

or like would almost create chaos. That's exactly how he said. She would create chaos so that she could come uncreate the chaos. Be the hero. Yes. I know that, you know what, abusers will often create problems to get a reaction so that you look like the problem or that they look like the solution. So that is a really interesting.

Yeah. And I think that he was seeing that in greater hindsight as, you know, as things had gone south with he and Lori. And, you know, as she had left 78 days starting in the beginning of January and, you know, he was watching, you know, this destruction of his family. I think that he had recognized a lot of what she had done in hindsight. Yeah. It broke his heart.

It was very sad for him. Yeah, it is sad that he probably, what is like, she was creating a lot of conflict. Yeah. Consistently, constantly. Yes. And we know that. That's true.

And he felt it. He sensed it. He said she did that with his older voice with Colin Zach as well. Oh, my heart goes out to all of them. Let's go back to this police investigation. Nancy Joe because I'm surprised. I didn't reach out to you for so long. Like I said, your number, you were texting him.

I mean, in every true crime I show, the last person that sees someone alive is a pretty important person in a case. And I know. I was like, well, maybe the true crime shows are wrong that I watch. And it's not an, I know. Knowing his demeanor the night before he supposedly was so angry the next morning. And who could testify to that. better than I.

You know, he wasn't angry. He wasn't angry. He wanted Lori to be a good mom to JJ. He wanted Lori to get help for her religious, whatever was going on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I just, I feel like it shows again that police really to get a slow start to this case. Like, I mean, first off, they let him go. You know, they sent Lori away with the victim's advocate for And look, justice has been served. So I don't want to like beat a dead horse. But I just looking back at this whole situation. I think if they would have looked into Charles case,

how do you shoot someone twice in self-defense? And I just, I feel like one death was one too many, but four deaths shouldn't happen. I agree. I agree. Just interesting that you weren't contacted. But as you want to say, Trina Knew, could you get to testify? So I'll say back.

Well, I don't know that she knew before she reached out and met with me, but I think by the time she got done meeting with me, she figured that I would, I really didn't know what I was going to be asked, but cards fell how they fell. Yeah. And Lori had to act like a jealous schoolgirl that didn't want. anybody else to have the cast off boyfriend that she didn't want anymore. So she really did let me just say that I really do think she was so offended that a woman that Charles had gone out with was testifying and talking about.

I mean it was it was it was it was beautiful it was like such a good well and I think maybe that I was starkly different than her bothered her a little bit right too right this dark brunette yes uh-huh I agree I agree so I think and her her her investigator did a pre-trial interview and and Lori thought I don't know if you remember that Lori fought to have me not be able to testify I actually have that written down on my notes so I'm I turn a little bit to look at my notes and see and that's literally like one thing I have in my notes she didn't want you testifying and she claimed that I had had this collusion with with Kay yeah and I want to talk to you about it because you did say the first person you reached out

to was Kay you and Kay became friends there's some validity there but like tell me yeah Let me clarify that. So I reached out to Kay. I talked with Kay. But mostly what Kay wanted to know is, have the police reached out to you? Have you talked to the police? You know, you were with him the night before. She didn't know I was with him.

I know. She and Larry were fighting so hard. Yes. They went, you know, their calls. You've got to look into this, you know, talking to Detective Moffat, just hearing them, just begging. Yes. So it makes sense. She's saying, look, talk.

So let me, so the conversation was that. Okay. And she gave me detectives. Moffat's number and asked me to reach out with him. And besides that, I just basically offered my condolences and told her how much he loved JJ and how obvious that that was. And then the contact through the rest of that was just, you know, about the trials, about, you know, logistics of the trials. It wasn't talking about detail. It was just, you know, the trials. Yeah, the trials.

But according to Lori Ballow and to remind people because they, they did, you know, not everyone followed every single hearing, but she was very upset because she wanted to get you out as a witness because she believed that you colluded with Kay and then you created stories and fault stories and fault narratives. The stuff that I knew and that I testified to came 100% from talking with Charles. And I didn't testify about anything that came anything after the date with the exception of me calling him the next day. And when I found out that he had died six months later. Yeah.

And like I said, I've seen some of your texts that verify what you said on stand and things you've told me. So I had no, I had no reason to lie. Why would I lie? Yeah. No, don't platter yourself, Lori. Just tell the truth. So, and there was no collusion with Kay.

There was, there was somebody else that she wanted to conclude. I don't remember who. Supposed I had colluded with her. I'd never even talked. I don't know who it was. There was one other person I'm trying to remember too. Do you remember, Grayson? There was a third person that thought that Nancy Joe, Kay, and one other witness was colluding and they were all sharing info.

Yeah. And I never even, I don't know who it was. Yeah, who was the third, but you know who it is? Oh, it was. Christina Outwood? Yes. Yes. I still don't know who Christina Atwood is. I think she's one of the blondes that testify. Yeah. One of the seven gatherings. I had never spoken or did not know who Christina

Atwood is prior to, prior to watching her testimony. I believe she testified after. Yeah. She was a friend of Lurries and. Yeah. Supposedly, I had colluded with her. I didn't know who she was. Yeah. So you're like, and it was the seven gatherers, not the eight. Nancy, Joe Hancock. It's not part of this little email thread sharing these strange beliefs. No. No, I was not. Yes. Wow. Okay. Yeah. I remember that. But that was debunked. Secretly, I was secretly hoping that Judge Brescu would say I couldn't testify. I'm sure. I text Trina K. And I'm like, what's the chance that Judge Brescu will not have me testify? She said zero. So how does that work? She calls you the day before and says, hey, you are testifying the next day?

or does she kind of give you an idea of what day it's going to be? Well, I told her I had a few, I had a trip planned, and I had some work things that I could not miss. And I said, so I couldn't testify these days. And then she said, I believe we'll have you testify this day. And that's when I did end up testifying. In hindsight, when I look at it, it looked to me like, you know, because I'm a true crime junkie and I watch trials.

It looked to me like she did some business and then she brought in a little personal to liven things up. That's my opinion. Okay. So then after, you know, you have this mic drop moment. Don't bother yourself. It was many people's favorites. You want to know what else I thought was even maybe as good or better?

Tell me. Tell me. Yeah. So after July 10th, did you have any further contact with my husband? No. He was dead. He was dead. that was the first thing I thought.

You said that's what she said after July 10th. Did you have any contact with my husband? You should have said. Yes, I had a near-death experience. And then when she said, I've had three. So did you know that I didn't know he was dating? And then I got to say, well, he knew you were having an affair. He told you that?

Yes. He did. And, you know, well, yes, well, you were plotting his murder. He went on a date. I mean, she just threw me some great, blog me some great softballs. And I couldn't resist. Yeah. I didn't say nearly all of the things I wanted to say, not even a fraction.

What does you want to say? Well, I would love to have said when she said you date married men, I would love to have said, well, I don't murder my husband and murder his wife and murder my kids and bury them in his backyard. But yes, I did go on a dinner date with Charles. I would love to have said that. That would have been great. Wouldn't it?

It would have been beautiful. It would have caused a mistrial. I know. And I didn't want to be the cause of a mistrial. This is your moment. I said it. You said it. Yeah, that would be good.

Did Trina Kay say anything about that? Don't flatter yourself flying after. She came in when they took me in and I had to come back in after lunch. She says, you'll be on TV tonight. And indeed you were. And indeed I was. And on T-shirts, you know. It was really bizarre.

Was it bizarre? It was kind of scary. Yeah. I mean, driving home from court, which took me half an hour, I was talking with my sister. And I had set the phone just like on the steering wheel like in front of me. And things are dropping down on my phone. I had like 300 Facebook and Instagram friend requests in 30 minutes.

Really? Yes, really. So this is the part we don't see when people testify in high profile trials. It was bizarre. Wow. And on Messenger. I bet I had 200 messages from people that I wasn't friends with. Wow.

And they were from Switzerland, Australia, Great Britain, New Zealand, I mean, lots from the United States as well, but from all over. And I don't know how many interview requests I got, but there were a lot. A lot. Incredible. And I just went, I'm going to just go in a cocoon. Yeah. I was one of those that asked. You declined. I did. I respectfully never asked again, right? You didn't. I didn't ever intend to do an interview. Yeah. But I couldn't stand what she was doing to my church. And I thought I have to say something. I want to hear, you know, I want to hear a little bit more about your love of your faith and what it stands for to you.

or just whatever you want to share about it because I look I agree with you um Lori Valo and Chad Debo as well as a man named James Craig right now you say you follow a trial are you following my trial coverage of James Craig I couldn't hate him more I know um yes I'm following there have been I'm going to be honest a lot of you say you're a true crime junkie there have been a lot of LDS members recently it's disgusting creating content in the true crime world yeah so So I do like to hear somebody that loves their faith, share with us what it means to you and how this has been difficult. And look, yes, a lot of people are critical of the faith. And I think it does oftentimes have to do with what's going on.

Well, I think a couple of things. I think, first of all, when someone commits a crime that is of the LDS faith, that's the first thing that's mentioned is that they're of the LDS faith. you don't often hear a Catholic man murdered his wife or a Protestant man murdered his wife or a Jewish man murdered his wife. But I do acknowledge that there have been some unbelievably disgusting crimes committed by LDS members. And I know how much you love your faith. And you are, I just want to say this, you are wonderful representative of the Church of Jesus Christ. what reason. Well, I come from a strong pioneer heritage and I know that people have sacrificed a lot. And, you know, Lori Daybell could probably out-scripture me if you wanted to do that.

But she would never. But Judge Bereske out-scriptures her. So in his final- Yes, he did. In his final statement. That was good. That was good. Sorry. But she, she can't out testimony me. My testimony is something very precious to me.

The church is very precious to me. And there are places in our church that we are told very strongly that God will not be mocked. And I believe that Lori Vallow Daval and Chad Deval and James Craig have mocked God in a way that is so evil and despicable and disgusting. And they are not a representative of the LDS faith. and I am ashamed that they would claim the LDS faith. And LDS members are Christian, that most other Christians. And I love my faith, and I feel like I can stand up in this ridiculous amount of whatever this bizarre fame is and say that I'm LDS and I'm proud of it.

Can I ask what you love about your food? I love so many things about my faith. I love the confidence that it instills in children. They go to primary and they learn to get up and give little talks. Tammy Daybell wrote a book. Did you know that for primary children? I don't know. Tiny Talks is one of the best books.

And Tammy Davele wrote it. Oh, I love that. I love so many things about it. It raises strong, confident youth that. some of them choose to go on missions and teach others about Christ. And I love the examples of service that it brings. And we believe in serving others and serving our fellow men and not just members of the LDS Church. We do a lot of service for other faiths and for other countries.

And I love that I know that I will see. those that I love that have died and gone to heaven and that I will see them again. Yeah. That death is a temporary thing. And I don't know what I would do in this life if I didn't have that knowledge. It would be a much harder life without that knowledge. So I'm grateful for that.

Thank you for sharing this personal part of your life with us. I mean the law. And I know how much it means to you. Thank you. I'm honored. that you would share this very personal part of your life with us. Thank you. I agree with you that Lori Valo and Chad Debel and James Gregg are despicable and others.

And they don't represent what this means to you. It's blessed of us. Yes. And I will say this too, though. I want you to know why I did something. I labeled the full story of James Craig as Mormon bishop. But let me tell you why I did it. I did it because I expect more from members of the Church of Jesus Christ, Lauderdie Saints.

And he was the Elders Corn President. And I think it shows what a wolf in sheep's clothing he was. And I hold him to a higher standard. I agree. And it shows to me his manipulative ways. And that he and Mary Dapele would get along the way. Yes. And that he used religion to manipulate people.

I agree. and that I want to show that manipulative nature in him. So if there's a Catholic person that does it, a Catholic priest, I will label him a Catholic priest. And if it's a pastor of a non-denominational Christian, I'll do that too because I agree that it's blasphemous. And I will hold religious, you know, despicable, religious people accountable.

Let's just hold despicable people. And despicable people. But whoever holds a position of power to make, manipulate and abuse people. I will shine that spotlight on that. But it doesn't represent what it means to you and who you are. And I agree with that. I don't want to ever have anyone ever think that just because a pastor or just because

a bishop of an LDS church or just because Chad Davidel did this, that it represents these wonderful people in a religion. Because you are, you show how wonderful people. Chad Debel has mocked God in a way that his judgment day. I don't envy his judgment day. So is Lori Deva. So is James Craig. People are complex and intricate individuals.

And one person doesn't represent a group ever. That's called stereotyping. So thank you for sharing what you believe in. I appreciate that. I'm a crier. Sorry. Okay. Well.

You've had a remarkable life and a lot of life. So I know a little bit, you know, about who you are. I'm very blessed. Yeah, have a great family. I'm very lucky and I'm very blessed. As a true crime junkie, I have to ask because I'm just, it's just a wild guess, but I'm suspecting some of the people watching this might be true crime junkies do.

Maybe it's just a wild guy. What cases are interesting in you right now? Well, when I grew up, I want to be Olivia Gonzalez. I don't know how to say the last name. Okay. I thought her victim impact statement was, she's a rock star. I loved it so much. Kaylee's sister.

I just thought I would have loved to have had someone do that to Lori the other day. It would have been so awesome. I am following the James Craig's case. I'm also following the honor killing case about the. couple from Iraq that tried to murder their daughter because she was not willing to go to Iraq. Yeah. And I'm really disturbed that the judge will not let the honor killing come into the trial or the fact that there's arranged marriage come into the trial. So I don't know how the jury is going to be able to see what is really happening.

For what it is, the motive. Yeah. And so, but I've really been, I've been watching that. as well. Those are the ones I'm, that's an interesting one. Mainly, mainly addicted to right now. Yeah. Well, you know, yeah, I bet you never thought that you'd see someone you knew and thought was wonderful on a Dateline episode. And like I said, I don't think there's a lot of dating stories out there, but I don't know how many people have. I went on a first date with a wonderful man that got to know him. And years later, I had to testify. I just murdered him. I've

I've had a kid. But you did him good just a minute. I think he was happy with what I said. I think he was very happy. I think you should be very proud that you helped injustice for him. I should have been insignificant. And instead, I think Lori showed in interviewing me the evil side of her that fortunately helped a jury see that she was capable.

of the crime she was accused of. And thank you, Heavenly Father, that she was so ridiculous and showed that side of herself because, yeah, I really think, and I don't take credit for this, but I saw Kay on another interview, I think she was interviewing with Justin Lum, and she said that when she watched me be questioned, and she saw Lori let me talk to her the way

that I did, you know, say don't flatter yourself and those things, that it gave her the courage to talk the way she did as well. And so, yeah, I'm grateful that for whatever little bits that helped bring the justice to Charles. I do think, I do see, I did see courage in Kay. And one of the final things she said, she had a mic jump moment too where Lori said, did you see me? No, but I thought it's kind of evidence. Exactly. No, but I saw a lot of evidence you did. And that was the final word.

It was good. It was really good. Everyone did an excellent job. Justice has been served. How did you feel sitting beside the moment where you had to walk out? How did you feel sitting in that sentencing, listening to those impact statements? It was a hard day, but it was an emotional day. It got wrenching.

I was stunned that she could not say one humble, kind. I couldn't believe that she could sit there and listen to those heartbreaking. statements and have no kindness, no mercy, no empathy, no, not one good quality. I could not believe it. I could not believe that what she had to say was what she had to say. No, I never want to hear from her again. I hope that nobody ever interviews her again. and I will never watch another interview that she gives again because I hope nobody

the only way for people to stop interviewing or is for people to stop caring what she says and I hope no journalist ever gives her any more airtime because she doesn't deserve it right and I will say when it comes to Olivia Gonzalez I think a little bit of her rubbed off on Kate and Larry and they said very strong things I agree they're very yeah it was powerful it was emotional for me and um colby was emotional for me yeah to know where he is to know where he is and to do that and say i'm going to make this statement and that you are the you are the family tragedy i thought that was a really powerful ending to his statement it was could you believe how flippet she acted during the whole thing no she was writing notes

could you see her face better where you were because i was in the back i could never see her face I could see the side of her face. She was grinning and giggling and flirting. Yeah. Through the whole thing. Passing notes. I didn't know that. It was so disgusting.

I didn't know that. Yeah. It was really disgusting. Wow. Yeah. Well, you know, also Judge Breske, when he said, you're going to fade into obscurity. He's right. You know, he's right.

People stop interviewing her. I think they're going to. I hope. Also, it sounds like there's a reason why she, so, so Brianna with. Arizona News, who's now interviewed her three times and did one right before the sentencing. Did you notice she could not interview her in person anymore? It's like she got in trouble for something.

I heard a little rumor that she's in trouble. Really? Yeah. Already. Yeah. It's not a good sign. I think it's funny. I think it's hilarious in fact.

So in other words, she's in trouble. She has so few privileges in prison already. And now she has even less. Oh, isn't that? Do you know what's happening? Do we know? Did she says she has fears? I mean, she can't meet in person for interviews, you know, big whoop.

I don't know many people are going to go out. I know more than I maybe should say, but I know she lost the use of her tablet for sure. Really? Yeah. Really? For Lori. It's just a shame. Well, I think Judge Broskey's right then.

The fading into obscurity happening. Yeah. I wish nobody would ever put money on her book. But I guess that's the only way any of the victims are ever going to get any of their restitution is by that. Interesting. Yeah. But, you know, I think fewer people, if she doesn't have a tablet,

I think a lot of people put money on her books to communicate with her on the tablet. Does that make sense? Like, I've heard of people writing her and saying, I'm giving her money. And don't they do that through the tablet? I don't know. I have not communicated. I have not communicated with her. I have a true.

I have not. I have not. I'm a true crime junkie, but I'm not a prison junkie. There is a difference. There is a difference. There is a difference. Nancy Jo, I want to thank you for this interview. Is there anything else you want to say?

But I didn't ask you. I'll even look at my note too. What do you think? No, I just want to say that things that you're hearing coming from Chad and Lori as any kind of representative of the LDS church, they're just not. and just not. Thank you. And you are a wonderful woman. And so if that's what the Church of Jesus Christ, Lord, you see this, then you are a wonderful

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