Hidden True Crime - 'The Woman They Could Not Silence': An Interview with NYT Best-Selling Author Kate Moore

Episode Date: August 14, 2024

Join us on Patreon for this month's Hidden True Crime Book Club on August 28, 2024 at 5:30 PST. https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime THE WOMAN THEY COULD NOT SILENCE ​From the New York Times, USA Today and Wall Street Journal bestselling author of The Radium Girls comes another dark and dramatic but ultimately uplifting tale of a forgotten woman whose inspirational journey sparked lasting change for women’s rights and exposed injustices that still resonate today. https://www.kate-moore.com/the-woman-they-could-not-silence About Hidden True Crime: Lauren Matthias was a television reporter for a decade and she and her husband, Dr. John Matthias, a forensic criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders of Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic criminal psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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requested everyone to read for my very first book club. We know that Dr. John typically runs these book clubs, but I am taking this one on. And the reason I'm taking this one on is truly is because of Kate, honestly, how inspired I was by your work and Elizabeth Packard. And so it is time that I take on next month. No, it's this month now. Oh, man, the days are flying, guys. But at the end of this month, we are going to have a book club where we discuss this book, the woman they could not silence. And I have the author, Kate Moore with me right now. I reached out to you, Kate, after reading this book, concluding it and just thinking, wow, hoping that many will be willing to read about Elizabeth Packard. And so thank you for being here. I have so many questions for you.

we won't do too many spoilers because this is the pre-reading. But I think there's quite a few things that we can talk about as far as the base of this book. And I did mention that I saw parallels to the Micah Miller case, as well as a few other cases that we cover here, a hidden true crime. So let me set the stage and then you can add anything. You jump in. You're the author of this work. But Elizabeth Packard was put into an insane asylum as a wife and a mother. a young mother, as she was placed there deemed insane, and the woman they could not silence is that.

That is the epitome of who Elizabeth Packard is. She is in the 1800s. What year was it that she was put into the insane asylum? It was 1860. So on the cost of the American Civil War, you know, justice society is about to change for good. So too does Elizabeth's life. Yeah. And she at that moment realized that not only was she not insane, that she had to sort of have this resilience and help the women that were in there as well, who were also, she realized many of them not insane. And that was her life.

That was a shock for her as well, you know, because I think everyone, you know, this was a state hospital in Illinois. And you kind of assume that, you know, the hospital is there to care for people, that anyone who is sent there. has to be genuinely mentally ill. And yeah, when Elizabeth is locked up inside there and sort of, you know, wakes up on her first morning and travels down the long corridors of the asylum to arrive in the dinner hall, she's expecting, you know, she's not quite sure what to expect,

but she knows that she'll be surrounded by madwomen. But she's not. They are just like her. They are as sane as she is. And she realizes, you know, she's not the only one this has happened to. She realizes there is an injustice here that she is determined to stand up for and to fight against.

And she realizes this is a problem that society has. This is what they are doing with women who are defying domestic control, as they put it, who are causing annoyances to their family. Women who are standing up for themselves are dispatched to asylum. And that's what Elizabeth soon realizes, but literally the morning she arrives there. taken away from her children, her young children. And right, who was sending them here? That's the thing too. They weren't going there.

Who was sending these women to this asylum? It was the patriarchy, basically, the men in control of their lives. So in Elizabeth's case, it was her husband, a pastor called Seophilis. For other women, it might be their father or a brother, whoever had that control over her. And something that is, is really significant in Elizabeth's case is how wives were perceived by the law at that time. There was a law known as coverture which had been inherited from England and it applied in the United States. And it said that when a husband and a wife married and became one, that one was the husband by law. It meant that women had no civic identity of their own. They had no right to their own earnings,

no right to property, to the custody of their children, even to their very liberty. A husband was the figurehead in law. And literally a woman, a wife, was just a shadow. She had no rights at all. And by law, a husband could send his wife to an asylum simply by request. And specifically, and this was literally in the statute books, without the evidence of insanity that was required in other cases. And that's what happened to Elizabeth. with Packard. Thank you for resurrecting this, this hero, this historical hero. This really is, this is, this book is a true crime case. This is. In fact, you know, a little spoiler, you take us through not just her being locked up, which is this crime, you know, it's true against

humanity. All of a sudden she is imprisoned and kidnapped, kidnapped and imprisoned with other women. Yeah. We then see the entire trial, which is what we also pay attention to and watch in true crime. You did such an incredible job detailing that trial and everybody that was passionate about it following it in Chicago and across the nation. This was a huge moment as well in American history, this trial of Elizabeth Packard. Is she insane? Is she not? I want to read something here. I have the book here. McFarland is the psychologist who deems her insane. And he says, McFarland believed he had a raft of new evidence to support his diagnosis. And it In quotes, he says, I wonder that those who so implicitly believe her story, he wrote,

do not ask themselves whether a woman who has been truly wronged ever goes to work in this fashion for remedy. Is her course exactly a natural one? Should you, if persecuted by a husband, adopt that style of life to think to procure a vindication for yourself? Because wronged women were not supposed to stand up for themselves. wrong women were not supposed to come out fighting or be angry or battle for injustice to be overturned. Elizabeth's course was unnatural in his eyes and therefore insane.

We still see this today. I mean, it's shocking that this wasn't that long ago. And so now I get it too. You know, like this is what we still see in coercive controlling relationships, in domestic violence. Completely. That was part of my inspiration for writing it. because, you know, I wanted to write this book because I was a passionate, a supporter of Elizabeth Packard and thought she deserved to be remembered. And I loved her story, you know, the, all the drama

of it, the Gothic horror of the insane asylums in the 19th century, the landmark trial, as you talked about. But above all, I was inspired actually by the Me Too movement. And the fact that women still today are silenced and discredited through this false claim that we're mad. You know, Me Too inspired me because I was like, how was it taken until 2017 for women to be listened to and believed? That was the difference with Me Too for me because it wasn't the first time women had spoken up or spoken out, but it was the first time that we were genuinely given credit for what we were saying and action was taken because, you know, stock was put in what women were saying. And I was thinking, how has it taken that long? How have women been silenced in the past? one way is through sending women to asylums, getting them psychiatrically diagnosed, you know, and I have been shocked because I knew when I wrote the book and was inspired to write it that this was something that was still resonant in the modern day. But I thought, well, you know, not to the same degree. We're talking about, you know, women politicians being called

crazy for, you know, running for president or whatever. We're not talking about husbands locking up their wives in insane asylums. But actually we are. I've been really shocked by how many readers have contacted me to say, this is my story. This is what my partner, ex-husband, tried to do to me as well. Wow. Wow. Yeah. People writing you saying that they feel like this is my story. Yeah, this is my story. And so it's still used today as this really pernicious tool, you know, because as I sort of, you know, I use an epigraph at the start of the book to say, you know, the most powerful way to silence someone is to call them crazy. And that is what happens to so many women.

You know, and you talk about coercive control, you know, you see that time. And again, gaslighting women. And as I say, some people taking it so far that they will actually secure a psychiatric diagnosis for their partners who they want to silence, discredit, take the children away from them. so on so forth. And that is what happens to Elizabeth. And what is so inspiring about her is the way she faces this situation, which was happening back then, and it's happening today. And it's how she manages to fight back. And what I really love about her story is that at the beginning of the book, she isn't the woman they could not silence. She is a 42-year-old housewife, a mother of six,

as you say, her youngest child is 18 months. You know, she's only recently stopped breastfeeding him and she's kidnapped and taken to the asylum. And it's through being there, realizing the reality of what's going on, that she learns to find the voice inside herself and to listen to it and to become assured in herself. It's like the crucible of suffering makes her the woman they could not silence. And one of my favorite quotes from her that I use in the book and the book is full of first person material from Elizabeth herself so you really get a sense of who she was and how she wrote and thought and felt about everything that's happening to her and she says when she was locked up in the asylum she said the worst that my enemies can do they have done and i fear them no more

i am now free to be true and honest no opposition can overcome me and she takes those feelings and goes on to change the world and it's just such an inspiring story and she was such a formidable woman. And when you say change the world, you're not exaggerating. I want to say she did so much. And that was an inspiring quote. Thank you for sharing that. I think you're absolutely right that it takes, you have to go down to that place to realize that you can rise and be free to to be that person too, right? Absolutely. Powerful person you are to fight.

You know, I know. To have that faith in yourself as well. I think that that's for me, one of, you know, the lessons that we can learn from her story is that, you know, when everyone around you is telling you that you're wrong, you know,

to have that faith in yourself to say, no, I am right. And I'm not going to listen to what you're saying. I'm going to believe in myself and, you know, better on myself, essentially. And, you know, she goes on to prove that that is, absolutely the right thing to do, but I think it can be so hard when you're in a situation

where everyone is telling you that the world is a different way or you are this person, to hold on to who you are and commit to who you are to say, you know, no matter what you do to me or say to me, I am going to be me, you know, this is me and I'm not going to change. That is a really, really special thing and a really important thing for us to be true to ourselves. And her resilience and perseverance. You know, I love that quote you shared. My favorite quote, I was looking at it before our interview and I didn't find it in time, but so maybe you know it is when she's writing Libby and she's saying to her, you have the most, she's complimenting herself. You have the most, she didn't say competent, but she said you have the most capable mother.

Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, I do. I watch this. I think I'm quite off the top of. my, yeah, like by memory, I don't know it. But yeah, I know where you mean in the book, yeah. There's this powerful moment to share that, you know, she says to her daughter in a letter, you have the most capable mother and I will take care of things. I don't know. It's just this really empowering foreshadowing. Yeah.

And, you know, and I, my heart breaks for her children. She was ripped away from. Send help is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus. We're somewhere in the Gulf of Thailand. Getting us out of here should be your focus. I'm your boss. You work for me. You're not in the office anymore.

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Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. A few important disclosures at acorns.com slash hidden true crime. One thing I want to ask you about Because one thing, you know, in true crime That I think parallels in a unique way The way you had to dig to learn about Elizabeth To resurrect this hero, you know, this So that we can all learn about her

To find all of her writings and her books And her journals and the newspapers You had to first find her And discover her. And you did a lot of books. research and true crimes is we do that oftentimes. We learn about something that feels really unjust and we start digging because we're serious and we're like, what's what's the real story here behind what we're seeing? And that's a lot of, I think, a wonderful part of the true

crime community is we say there's more to this story and we're all these citizen journalists digging. And I'm just curious and I haven't asked you this, so I don't even know, but at the very end when you give acknowledgments, you think to University of Wisconsin students, Catherine and Ashley, because it was their essay that you found online when you first read about a woman named Elizabeth Packard, and this is probably not a question you typically asked, but I would love to know about that and what Catherine and Ashley did for you to be able to find out about her and then go digging. Yeah, well, they were to University of Wisconsin students, and I found that, and I found that, essay. Their essay was just published online. I don't know if all university essays get published

online or if this one was particularly special that it had found its way there. And basically, I was in the middle of a sort of, you know, rabbit Warren, Google internet searching, trying to find the, you know, the heroine who would allow me to write about that sort of overarching theme of how women have been silenced through the false claim that we're mad. It was a real topsy-turvy sort of genesis to a book because often you will discover the subject. You're like, I really love her. I want to write a book about her. Whereas this case was no, what I want to write about is women being silenced through the false claim. We're crazy. I'm sure there is a woman in history whose one personal story I can focus on and through that that can act as a microcosm to allow us,

you know, not only to be caught up in her story, which is my, you know, driving aim as a storyteller and a writer. I'm wanting people to get caught up in the story, fall in love with the characters, walk in step with them on their journey. You know, the woman they could not silence is a nonfiction book, but it hopefully reads like a novel, you know, cliff hangar endings, you know, page turning chapters, hopefully, you know, the courtroom drama and so on. So I wanted people to do that, but also then almost without realizing it to reflect on the modern day. And so I went searching for that one woman in history whose story could sort of stand. for all of us and whose story would be the doorway into these wider things. And I actually started in the 20th century. But what I found there is because the psychiatric treatments of the day were things like lobotomies, electric shock therapy, a lot of the women I found who sort of fitted the criteria

were actually silenced. And I wanted an uplifting ending for my book and an inspiring ending and a happy ending really. So I had to go further back. And so I was falling down this Google search of, you know, women in the 19th century, madness in the 19th century. And Catherine and Ashley had written an essay entitled Lunacy in the 19th century. And so I just randomly stumbled on it and was, you know, skimming it really as I went through. And I think it was four pages in.

There was a single paragraph about Elizabeth Packard, about the fact she'd have this landmark legal trial to judge her sanity. And I thought, ooh, that piqued my interest. She sounds interesting. Courtroom drama, like the sound of that. Right. So we, yes. Courtroom drama is always something we're into here. Right. Exactly. And so I googled Elizabeth Packard, having found her name in that one university source. And from there, it, you know, it's noble because within a few clicks, I could even, you know, read some of the books. that she herself had published. So I knew there was that incredible first-person material. Elizabeth herself is a phenomenal writer. So, you know, we were chatting before we started recording

about how amazing she was. And I, you know, I said it was such an honor to work with her, because that's very much how I feel that we've done. It's almost like the two of us are co-writers because she published such a vast way the material that was so personal. You know, it's her memoirs. It's her journal that she kept in the asylum. You know, she wasn't allowed to write. that she would steal scraps of fabric to record on, you know, slip a sort of doctor's pencil into, you know, into the pocket of her hand kind of thing so that she could write, you know,

after hours when no one was looking. And it's those scraps of memories and reflections. And, you know, she was just a phenomenal writer. So to be able to combine her work with, you know, my novelistic aim for the book. And it's just been such a, such a wonderful experience for me to work with such a phenomenal person to help her have a voice again. Thank you for sharing that.

Yeah, yeah, I think in many ways her writing that she was able to write probably helped keep her sane because definitely, definitely. One thing in this sane asylum is that you could easily go insane by the treatment that was delivered to these many women and many did. And at least she had her. writing that she was able to, yeah, hide and always kept it hitting. Thank you for sharing this story about the Wisconsin University of Wisconsin students. I just think that sometimes we put things out into the universe and we care about something and we write something. I mean, maybe I'm

talking just about myself and I'm projecting that we all feel this way. And we wonder if it'll ever make a difference or if, you know, the Kate Moore will find it to one day carry the torch, you know, and do what you did and create a masterpiece and allow us all to learn about Elizabeth Packard. And so, you know, and a lot of us are always finding little clues, little things online. And so thank you for sharing how you discovered about her. And I thought it was really neat just how you thanked them too. Like this is. Yeah, well, absolutely. I wouldn't have discovered her without them. So, you know, I am very grateful to them. Yes. You say, it just goes to show, you never know, you throw a stone in a pond. You never know where the ripples are going to land. So, yeah, they're

published that essay online and I've written a whole book, you know, having been inspired by that name I found in their essay. So yeah, thank you. Yeah, I'm going to just read, we already talked about this, but I just want to explain her latest. So this is from page 366. Her latest campaign in Illinois was her most focused yet because Elizabeth had never forgotten the woman she had left behind in the asylum. And she had now returned to rescue them. In fact, for almost four years, Elizabeth had been appealing to various lawyers to assist her sisters while she had been busy in other states battling for legal reforms. But none had taken up the cause. But if no one else was going to help these women, she would. I love that too. This is about women, strengthening women and just the power. That is just so amazing. And the perseverance. We talk a lot about resilience on our channel too because my husband's a psychologist, a forensic psychologist. And we often talk. about, you know, why people do what they do or where they end up and just her resilience, to me is remarkable. You explained a bit about it already, but, you know, that was incredible.

Did you find that remarkable as well, the resilience that she had? Absolutely, yeah, the resilience, the perseverance, the, as I say, just the strengths she had inside herself to keep fighting. And you're right, you know, I love this the sort of the way she bounced together with her sisters. You know, there are so many points in the book where she could save herself or she could make things better for her, but she chooses the harder option.

You know, she sticks together with her sisters. It's about doing it for everyone, not just for her, you know. And then she uses the incredible skills she has as a public speaker or as a writer, simply as a charismatic personality. You know, I wish that I could have met her, because, you know, even her enemies said how, you know, she would be the one, you know,

she'd come into a room and she would be surrounded by a circle of people just sort of simply hanging on her every word because she had such fluidity of language and she herself was just so charismatic. I wish I could have met her because she just sounds phenomenal. Yeah, she does. I agree. And right, her cause was not just for herself, but for for others and her compassion and her bravery. I think another thing that I really love about her story, especially me, you know, because I'm roughly her age when she was sent to the scene asylum. And I love no, she, as you point out, she was a very good woman and a smart woman and a mother and a wife. But after this happened to her, she rose up. And this was the latter half of her life in the 1800s,

where she made the biggest, most powerful difference in her life. And I think I love that story too that it's, I mean, not only is it never too late, she did some of the most, her most profound work in her later years. Absolutely. And she kept battling, as you say, into her later years. You know, we're talking in her 60s, 70s. She's still campaigning. She's still making a difference. Writing letters appearing in person to persuade legislatures to change the law. She would fight for the rights of women and the mentally ill. So she was always, you know, she, as you say she never forgot the people that she'd encountered in the asylum and she was determined to make things better for them as well as addressing the wider societal issue of, you know, the patriarchy

and trying to ensure that women did have some rights, you know, rights to their own earnings, you know, rights to the custody of their children. She was integral in trying to change laws across America to make things better for people. Yeah. Thank you for sharing again with us. else that you'd like to say right now, you know, we're, you and I are dancing a bit around because we don't want to give too many spoilers away because we, we want everyone to read this book and to, to our hidden gems. So the book club, let me share, is going to be Wednesday evening, August 28th, Pacific Time 5.30 p.m. You join through Patreon.com slash hidden true crime. But I'll also put a link on our book club website as well. So it's patreon.com slash hidden

two crime. We're going to read it Wednesday, August 28th at 5.30 p.m. Pacific is when we will start the Zoom meeting where we talk about this book. I also want to point out this is your website, Kate. That's the one where you can purchase the book. And I just want to give, you know, I just want to a, we value your work so much. I want to support your work so much. So everyone consider even purchasing a new copy. I know that there's places now where you can buy used books, you know, in places, but just remember that by purchasing a new book, if you are able, if we were able, we want everyone to join, but if you're able, you're also supporting Kate Moore's incredible work because we want to see you keep writing and keep bringing these heroines to us.

So yeah, so anyway, this is her and her website is, I'll put it in the description of this video, but it's kate-hifenmore.com. And this is where you can find the book to read it. And then we will have it on August 28th, the book club. And so I started that ramp by first asking if there's anything else you would like to say. And then I jump to that. That's right. I mean, I think really what I want to say is thank you to you, Lauren, for choosing the book and discovering her story and feeling so passionate about Elizabeth that you want to share this story as well. You know, it's incredible for a writer when you have word of mouth about a book and when people read it, discover what you're talking about and want to press it into other people's hands.

So sincere thank you from me to you for choosing the book and thank you to everyone who may or may not decide to read it for the book club. I do know that lots of book clubs are reading it. there is so much to discuss in it. And I hope you will have a brilliant discussion when you come to discuss it on August the 28th. Thank you. Well, and so you know, it is absolutely word of mouth. I learned about it through actually a gentleman who was inspired by it. And he, there is, how do I say this, there is a case that hidden true crime has covered that has affected him and his family greatly. And he, as that person read this book and recommended it to me. I just want to say it's inspiring a lot of people.

It's absolutely word of mouth. And there are so many parallels. And this is a true crime book. This is true crime right here, even with the trial drama. You've got it all, Kate. So I know that our gems will love it. So thank you. Yeah, I'm so excited to get everyone to read that, to read your book.

and we would love to have you back some time to solve all world problems. Definitely. I am working on a new book right now. I haven't announced what it is yet, but it would suit your podcast, shall we say. So it's another historical book, but I could see it working. So I'm still at the research stage. I've got years yet before it's out. But let's stay in touch, and I'd love to come back on and talk to you guys about it.

Wonderful. Thank you so much, Kate. We'll see you. Bye-bye. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers.

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