Hidden True Crime - Three-year-old dies during 12-hour exorcism - Rest in Peace Arley Naomi

Episode Date: March 22, 2024

Arley Naomi Proctor-Hernandez was taken to a church on September 24, 2021. Her grandfather was pastor at the small California church, and family members met to assist in an exorcism. Her mom believed she was possessed. The probable cause is difficult to read, and the determined cause of death is asphyxiation.  The week before Arley's mother, Claudia Hernandez-Santos, was arrested, Claudia started a YouTube channel and spoke to her viewers. It's chilling to listen.  The trio of family members stand before a judge this week in San Jose California, and according to reporters in the court room, Claudia swiveled in a chair and occasionally yawned while listening to Police testimony.  This episode was recorded just after the arrests were made in January 2022, and was only available on Patreon until today.   It was recorded after the pandemic had ended, but remnants still lingered. Domestic violence had increased, and fear gripped many. This episode tackles many of those issues in 2020/2021. We believe this episode is important to revisit and have decided to make it public. We have 60 bonus episodes just like this one on our Patreon account at Patreon.com/hiddentrueCrime. Thank you to those who support us there with your monthly membership "Denial is always a strategy of self protection. Denial is about making ourselves feel better in some ways because we don't understand something or something is too painful to address or to cope with. " -Dr John Matthias DR. JOHN MATTHIAS is a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with 30 years’ experience in both clinical and forensic work. He serves as an expert witness for the federal government and has consulted on numerous high-profile cases for District Attorney’s offices and defense attorneys in several states. Dr. Matthias graduated with honors in philosophy from Princeton University, and he won the prestigious McCosh Thesis prize while there. In high school he graduated valedictorian from a large public high school in Chicago where he was chosen to participate in a ground-breaking valedictory study that continues to this day. LAUREN MATTHIAS has worked as an anchor and reporter for ABC, NBC, and FOX News in East Idaho, Boise, Idaho and Salt Lake City, Utah. She spent a decade reporting on a diverse range of topics from high profile crimes to Presidential visits. Most recently, she reported for Salt Lake City’s ABC affiliate News4Utah. In 2015 she received the Idaho State Broadcaster’s Association Best Reporter award. She has reported for News Nation and now produces the Hidden True Crime Podcast along with her husband Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist. HIDDEN: A TRUE CRIME PODCAST is: CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY REINVENTED. Join us on a journey into the darkest recesses of the human mind and the unconscious motivations that drive human behaviors in order to understand the world and ourselves. WEBSITE: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ SUPPORT: https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime  https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Lately, I've been trying to be more intentional about what I wear, intentional about everything, just choosing pieces that feel effortless, still put together, timeless, but also not overthinking it every morning. It's why I keep going back to quince. Their pieces just make getting dressed easier and I feel so classy. I feel elevated. The fits are flattering. The fabric is really high quality. Everything is wearable day to day. I actually got this really, really, beautiful yellow V-neck midi dress from them, and I paired it with some Italian leather sandals. It's one of those outfits that just works. It feels polished but still comfortable. It's exactly what I've been looking for. What surprises me, though, is the quality for the price.

Quince uses premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, q-u-in-c-com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. Nobody can come to me and try to talk down on me because of what happened in my past, you know, because like, who I was before is not who I am today. My past does not weigh me down.

You know what I mean? Like what I've been through? You know what I, you know, because I've made many mistakes in my past. Like you guys don't know. Like I made so many mistakes in my past. But I realized like you can't change your past. You know, it is what it is.

Who you just heard was Claudia Hernandez-Santos on a YouTube live just months after her three-year-old daughter was killed. And only a week before Claudia was arrested and charged in her daughter's death. This week, a preliminary hearing for Claudia continues in San Jose, California. She is charged, along with her brother, Renee Hernandez, Santos, and her father, Renee Hernandez, for allegedly participating in the killing. The crime occurred nearly three years ago. According to the probable cause, Arlie Naomi, Proctor Hernandez, a three-year-old girl, was taken to a church on September 24, 2021, after she woke in the middle of the night screaming. Arlie's grandfellie,

father was pastor of the small California congregation, and he met Claudia and Arley, his daughter and granddaughter, along with his son, Arlie's uncle, there to assist. They gathered in the chapel to perform an exorcism. Claudia believed Arlie was possessed, and they laid the girl before an altar. According to charging documents, which are very difficult to read, for nearly 12 hours, they tortured the little girl until she died, and then they waited two hours before calling 9-1-1. The determined cause of death is asphyxiation. Three months passed before Claudia Hernandez-Santos was even arrested. And the week before her arrest, January 22, that's when she started her YouTube channel and spoke to viewers. She shared her train of thought while sitting in her car.

It's chilling to listen. And you'll hear a good amount of this in this episode. The trio stand before the judge this week in San Jose, and according to reporters in the courtroom, Claudia swiveled in a chair and occasionally yawned while listening to police testimony. This particular episode we're about to listen to was recorded in 2022, shortly after the arrests were made. But until today, this episode was only available on Patreon. But with this ongoing hearing, we felt this episode was very important to revisit and have now decided to make it public. We have 60 bonus episodes just like this one on our Patreon account, at patreon.com slash hidden to crime.

Their episodes, the public has never heard. Thank you to those who support us there with your monthly membership. I don't think I've made a baby like her. And I'm not saying that because she was my daughter, but because my baby was so sweet. She would tell me, I love you so many times. She would tell me, Tejavo. Teamo, you know?

I don't know what she would come in to me. She's like, hug, hug. She would be like, morning, son. She just had so much love to give to others, you know, she, she was just a happy baby. And it's, like, it's so hard now, you know, because going from having her every day to not having her at all, you know, it's so hard. And to think that I'm not going to see her grow up, you know, like how I thought that I was going to see her up, you know, like. But you know, it's okay. I know she's a better, but it's enjoying.

God knows what he allowed to stay. And now everybody wants to know what happened to her, like her, the cost of her death. And I will talk to you guys about it. You know, I will. But when I'm ready, This is hard, you know, it's hard. I am with John.

This is about as spontaneous as we get. We're sitting here eating dinner. He's tired and says he wants to go take the garbage out because it's garbage night. And I'm like, But, but, but, can we just please talk about one case really quickly? He's sort of not there, but I just left on his phone. And here we are.

Hey, John. I'm being coerced. He's being coerced. And I still don't know if I've done it enough that he has been coerced or if I'm still working on that part. But let me just ask you a few questions. And if this doesn't go well tonight, babe, we'll just do it tomorrow. But this is, you know, we tell them we do spontaneous. episodes at our dinner table and here you go. This is it in its raw form. So first off, this is

what I've been disturbed about recently. We cover the Lori and Chad Daybell case where they see the children are zombies and that is why they killed Tiley and JJ because they were evil and had evil spirits in them. Then a few months ago it might have been longer than a few months ago because I don't have a good sense of time ever since since I've had a child, but Matthew Coleman, the surf teacher in California, took his children to Mexico and two young children and killed them both with a spear fishing gun.

And he was into QNon beliefs and in the very damning probable cause. It essentially says that he thought they were demon DNA and that his wife was too. And we also know that his wife now was also into to these conspiracy theory beliefs, not that she helped to murder her children, but I've seen some text messages between them that are fascinating. And anyway, that's why this father killed his children. Then on Mother's Day, a mother, another Lori Daybell-esque mother in my eyes, killed her three

children because she believed they were possessed by evil spirits or demons. And somehow she had her 16-year-old son help. I'm not completely sure about that. All I know is she believed they were demons. And then the most disturbing thing that I've listened to today is a YouTube recording of a mother. This case has been sealed. No one's really learned about it because of the court documents being sealed, but the news finally picked it up. This happened in September, a three-year-old girl.

was killed during an exorcism because her mother believed that her three-year-old daughter was possessed by evil spirit because she kept waking up in the middle of night and crying. And they took her, and by they I mean her uncle and a grandfather took her to a church. Her grandfather was the pastor of the church. and they did a 12-hour exorcism on her, which officials, law enforcement, and officials say she was tortured throughout 12 hours before she passed away. And then this recording that I just referred to,

I'm coming back to it, is the mother after she killed her daughter because she was not arrested for a few months. She wasn't arrested until January. in her car doing a car selfie video, sort of like Julie Rowe does. She's 25 and she is discussing her daughter's death. And the entire video is 40 minutes long. And it really upset me when I saw it last week.

I showed it to John that day. I'm like, I'm actually depressed watching this. You know that and we watched it together. And you said, yeah, we can talk about this. take a listen to some of this recording really quickly her discussing her daughter's death before being arrested like I told you guys like I

can see hearing me negative but I like and be negative like oh not being negative but like be sad about that whole situation as he passed away but it's like there's no point you know because it is what it is it is what it is you know she's not here with me it is what it is you know

and and it's like what's the point? You know, I'm just going to be getting myself, putting myself down. When there's no point for me to do that, you know, like I cannot change the past. And I got to be positive about the situation, you know, like. Here are my two thoughts when it comes to this and all the cases I mentioned. First up, when we started covering the day bell case, one thing we said in our podcast is, if we can help this not to happen again, if we can help explain,

why this happens and that perhaps it will stop this from ever happening again, then we feel good about this podcast. Yet I don't think I completely understood that we were going to see so many cases of this so quickly if parents choosing to kill their children because they're possessed. And now it feels like it's almost an epidemic and maybe it's because I'm reading too much true crime or Google search or Google News has, you know, found what I'm interested in. But it's, it's really disturbing to me to see that this is now becoming a thing, like a weekly thing. And then my second question is maybe talking about that video that we saw because it's so

chilling and disturbing watching this mother who did this to her three-year-old daughter talk about it. So nonchalantly and giggling and trying to get. YouTube followers at the same time. Okay, let me drink some water. Okay. I think, I think, I think I can get myself together. Look, I got a hundred and something views, right?

And then I got 12 subscribers like, like, I was surprised because I was like, wait a minute, because I didn't even like, you know, I was just being myself, but I like it, you know, and I really appreciate you guys because, because like, like, you. Like I told you guys, like, I'm doing this to help others, right? And the fact that you guys are watching me and you guys are allowing me to teach you is like, it means so much to me. Like you guys don't know, but like, with time you'll see. And take a listen really quickly, her discussing her daughter's death. After my daughter passed away, you know, a lot of people thought like a lot of things because after my daughter passed away because of how the situation looked.

But like I said, if you weren't there, if you don't know what happened, then whatever you want to be out here saying, whatever you want to be out here making people believe, then that's really on you. And the thing is like, I don't worry too much about that because God knows the truth. You know, and the truth always comes out. It always comes out. Why do you think it's still happening, or is that where you want to start? So one thing that's happened is since the pandemic started, homicides have gone way out since the pandemic started. Some people are trying to argue that that's political, but it's not political. It has to do with the fact that the pandemic has created a lot of isolation and it's created a lot of fear. And I think that's a difficult combination for human beings to deal with.

So I think we live in a culture of extreme fear right now. And even though people dismiss the pandemic as being irrelevant or trivial, people know deep down that there's a virus out there that has killed over a million people, and it could kill them. And I don't even think it's necessarily the coronavirus, right? It could be Ebola or any virus. Like just the fact that a virus could invade the human, species with the possibility of killing potentially millions or maybe even hundreds of millions at some point, given the right virus, hundreds of millions of human beings, you're dealing with a lot of fear.

What do you think about life right now in the world nowadays? Because it's really, it's a lot. It's really a lot, you know? And I feel like it's a lot, you know, it's a lot. Like a lot of negative things. are going on, you know? And I don't know, I feel like that's why it's important for you to be, like, to be mentally, emotionally and physically stable, you know, because of everything that's going on. So I think in an environment of fear and extreme polarization like we have today, I think when you take somebody with, say, reasonably extreme beliefs and you mix them into that stew, their beliefs become more extreme, their fear drives a lot of their behaviors. It increases the radicalization. It increases their extreme beliefs. And I think that's part of the reason why we're seeing some of these things happen. This, like, look, after my daughter passed away, I have

learned so much and I've grown so much and I'm matured so much you know and and I'm just thankful I'm thankful because I could easily kill myself you know after she passed away but God is good you know God has God has been there for me he that has always been there for me and that's something that I'm never like that's exactly why I'm I'm not ashamed to be talking about him you know like God is real and he has always been there for me you know in the darkest moments of my life he's always mean never. Overall crimes are being committed. But why in the name of religion is because the fear of death? So here's a good example. So the black death or the black plague in the Middle Ages killed hundreds of thousands of people. And nobody understood it. We didn't have the

scientific basis to understand what that was. It turned out that it was the black death was the plague, which was transmitted by rodents. But people didn't know that, and millions of people were dying. And back in the Middle Ages, you know, the worldview, the predominant worldview, was religious. And so most people saw that as a religious thing. If you were dying from Black Death, you were a sinner, or you weren't religious enough, right? Or you were possessed. It's the same type of thing.

It's the same type of belief. Like it or not, I guess it's similar today. We have kind of vestiges of the Middle Ages in terms of people not fully understanding what we're dealing with and what this is. Like we all supposed to be happy. You know, God created us to feel this way. But because there's so much evil going around, like guys, I don't know much about the Bible.

I've never read the whole Bible, okay? But I believe in it. But anyway, look, it says that because there's going to be a lot of evil. everybody's heart is going to get cold or something like that, right? But like, I'm here to tell you that it's okay, baby. It's okay. It's going to be okay. And I want you guys to allow me to help you, please.

You know, Matthew Coleman, thinking that his children were human lizard hybrids is so far off the course of normality. Right. I don't even know how you begin to approach that, right? but some of it is definitely based on fear. He was extremely religious. He had fairly extreme religious beliefs. And so... As did his wife?

As did his wife. So when you have a lot of uncertainty in the environment, like you did back during the black plague or the black death, and you have coronavirus and you have the uncertainty of a virus that's killing millions of people, that essentially moves people in the direction. of certainty. They want to reduce what they don't know. They want to feel control over their environment. That's a natural response to anxiety and fear and uncertainty. And so I think you have a situation today where people that might have more rigid religious beliefs or ideologies have become more so. They've become more radicalized. Like when it comes to God, I don't play. That's one thing about me. Like, I've been called and I've been told that I had mental problems. I had mental health. Like, I had like my mental health. Like, I was crazy because of him, because of the things

that I do. There's so much fear out there and there's so much uncertainty. And even if people deny the impact of the virus, I think at some level people intuit that it's real and it's killing people and people don't have control over that. So you brought me to my next question then. The next question is a lot of people do deny the virus. Some people are claiming they don't believe in the virus. I hear stories of nurses at ERs saying that as the patient is dying of COVID-19, they will refuse to believe the virus even exists until the very end. So that's similar to like the Black Plague. Like there's there was a huge level of denial of what was going on.

First of all, nobody understood it. They didn't know what the plague was. They didn't know how it was transmitted. And of course, it would have been even more confusing. It would have been hundreds of years until people understood what a virus was. As Fauci points out, a virus is a virus. It doesn't care about human politics. It doesn't care about human dealings.

It doesn't care about culture. It just cares about finding a host to infect and hopefully keep alive long enough for it to transmit itself to something else so it can so it can replicate itself. So I think part of that whole thing is a way for people to feel in control. It's a way to minimize it and deny its importance and it's a way to minimize fear. It's a way to cope with anxiety. Denial is always a strategy of self-protection. Denial is about making ourselves feel better in some ways because we don't understand something or something is too painful to address or to cope with.

Okay. That's true. We all, as humans, uh, deal with denial at times, right? Just to cope. And let me say this. I mean, like they have every right to express their views and have their views. But I think to deny that this virus exists is so extreme that it's, it's so extreme that it's, it's a different level denial, right?

true. There's a difference between saying I'm upset or concerned about how mask mandates affect our freedom or the government is pushing us to do things that might take away our freedom. And then there's a whole other level of the virus does not exist. It's made up. It's a complete fiction. And this is people trying to control us and put a chip into us. I mean, maybe some people believe in chips. But let's be honest. I, you know, if the government wants to track as they have our cell phones. I think they're good, in my opinion. I think they're already tracking us. The bigger issue is fear. The bigger issue is a culture during the pandemic of extreme isolation, of loneliness, of fear. And one way of coping with that is social media. That's true, too. That's

one of the reasons why social media groups around this became so rabid. This is true. I had never joined a true crime Facebook group until the pandemic. You know, we all kind of reached out to social media for reasons. I now have online best friends that I never knew because of the pandemic. So what you're saying is that people getting on social media, is that a coping mechanism or is that increasing the fear or the conspiracy? What are you saying about it? I'm saying that people with similar beliefs have found each other through social media in this environment. They've kind of been forced to find each other to reinforce their beliefs. If you don't believe the virus exists and you think it's a hoax, you're going to find people out there that also believe that on social media.

You know, you may not have encountered those people, you know, 10 or 20 years ago, right? But now it's quite easy to find them and to feel validated. And so I think that makes things worse. I agree with that. When you and I were growing up, we'd get that newspaper on our front porch. Our parents would read it. We might read some of it. They might discuss it with us at family dinner. See what each other thinks. Right now, you can just hop on your phone, find a Facebook group that agrees with you and feel completely validated. And never read the article.

Right. Never read the article. I mean, one of the things that's going on today that's interesting. Conspiracies in the past were usually driven by some type of evidence. Now, that evidence may have been misinterpreted or it may have been viewed in a particular way. But nowadays, conspiracies are driven by social proof, meaning you don't need any evidence anymore. You just need to listen to your neighbor. And if you think your neighbor's credible and you believe him or her, then you're going to believe in this conspiracy. And your neighbor might be in a different country, but you talk to them more than your actual neighbor on Facebook. There's a phenomenon now. There's a couple of researchers that call it the new conspiracyism, but it's based on the idea that social proof is all you need these days to believe in a conspiracy and endorse it. And that didn't used to be true. It used to be that people would want some evidence or they'd want some confirmation of something factual to grab on to support their beliefs in the past.

but it seems not to be true anymore. It's how people deal with fear and how they let their beliefs influence that and whether they're open into examining their fears as part of that equation, right? Are people willing to kind of explore their own beliefs and own minds and attempt to figure out what's driving their fear?

Are they willing to confront their fears directly? I think that's all part of this. So the answer to that question with all the examples you gave about Matthew Coleman and the woman that recently the Mother's Day. The Mother's Day woman, like the commonality is,

no, those people are not willing to examine their fears. And no, they're not willing to reflect on their beliefs and reflect on their lives. And maybe some of them had past traumas that factor into this. In the criminal world, I see that a lot. I see that violence is driven by past traumas quite a bit. And part of the problem is that a lot of felons a lot of criminals, they simply aren't willing to examine their past.

They're not willing to examine the pain from their childhood and the traumas they've experienced and how that's impacted their propensity towards violence. And so that's a big part of the problem. A lot of criminals just, they act out their violence rather than taking a moment to reflect upon it or to reflect upon themselves and to reflect upon their fears and their pain. and their hurts and vulnerabilities. And so I think that's one of the reasons that we have criminality, and that's one of the reasons why crime has gone up during the pandemic,

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Tasha Hafe, that was another mother. I believe Wisconsin, someone correct me if I'm wrong. I just remembered her name, but she killed her seven-year-old boy, beheaded him because he had the devil in him. So there's another one that's happened recently. It's so shocking and so appalling. I can't help but be reminded of a past in our country that's horrendous that we all learn about in school, the Salem Witch Trials. These crimes are not, you stole my tomato in my yard and I'm really ticked off, so I'm going to shoot you. These take on a whole new.

They have demons. They need to be killed. Throw in Lori and Chad into this mix and children. This is the Salem Witch Trials, but with children. How does that happen? I mean, and I don't, you know, I didn't mean to throw the Salem witch trials on you. But what is it about this crime? How can it be coming back when it was such a horrible part of our history that we learned in elementary school?

Those were driven by fear too. The Salem witch hunts trials were driven by fear as well. I think that, again, that's a common element. But I think there's other things here too. So I think the fear, this culture of fear, largely, driven by the pandemic sets the stage. And then you have mental health issues. Right.

So it's not just the fear. You take fear. You take fairly extreme beliefs. And again, let me reiterate that I'm not talking about normal, healthy religious beliefs here. You go to church. That doesn't mean you're going to kill our baby. At least I hope not. I don't see any signs.

Let me reassure you. You take a cultural. your fear, you take extreme beliefs, you take mental health issues, put them together, and you, in some ways, you're creating the perfect storm. So the social media mom you're talking about that tortured her child, the three-year-old? I posted it on my social media today how I feel, I feel so happy, you know, I wake up and I'm just happy to be alive, you know, I'm happy to be life and now I wake up and I'm like okay I'm up I feel good like I'm healthy I'm alive you know and and that's how I want you guys to feel most people when they

start YouTube they want to make money or whatever but that's one thing that I I know I don't like I'm not looking for that you know like if it happens and it happens and I'm gonna be grateful but my purpose and my goal is to help others. You know, if I'm able to help others, that's all the matters. You know, and looking at the video, there's definitely, it appears to me that there's definitely some serious mental health problems. She's got some paranoia, I think, and, you know, I can't, I'm not going to get close to diagnosing here because I just don't know enough about her, but it does seem to me there might be some psychotic features. You know, one thing to keep in mind about psychosis is, psychosis is

psychosis is not an all or none phenomenon. I think a lot of us think of psychosis as either you're like hallucinating and you're completely nuts or you're not, right? That's not the way it works. There's like a continuum. Like everything else in mental health, there's a continuum. You can have psychotic features and still be grounded in reality to some degree. Huh.

So, yes, on the extreme end, you know, if you're floridly psychotic and hallucinating or hearing auditory or hallucinations, that's a different issue, right? But that's fairly rare. To have someone that's like floridly psychotic 24-7 is not all that common. So you can have psychosis or versions of psychosis or delusional beliefs and still be kind of grounded in reality to some degree. I think you see some of that with her. One thing that's interesting about the video is, as you pointed out, she's,

more concerned about how people are going to respond to this than the fact that she murdered her child. When she passed away, she was with me. You know, of course, I'm her mom. Why would she not be with me? You know, but if you weren't there when she passed away, then whatever you want to believe or whatever you want to think that happened is not valid because you were not there. It's not that reality of how things happened. You know, like, I was there.

I know what happened to her, you know? And, you know, and that's something that gets to me because it's like people weren't even there, They want to be out here saying this and that because of how the situation looks. But if you weren't there, then you don't know. You know, and that's why what people say, or if you've heard something about what happened to my daughter, if it doesn't come from me, then it's not valid because you were not there. You were not there, you know? And, yeah, like so many people are like, I don't know.

I don't know. It is like, it does get to me. She's so sensitive to other people's reaction. to other people's reactions. And she keeps saying, well, you aren't there. You don't know me. But at the end of the day,

I know what happened. God knows what happened. And the people that were there when she passed away knows what happened. You know what I mean? So whatever people want to be out here saying, this and that,

like, it does not matter. Okay. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because you were not there. You know, and I don't care. Like, I don't care. Like, you cannot come to me

trying to tell me this. that like no no no no no no no no because like i said you were not there one thing is saying what you think it is but another thing is out here making people it's being out here making people believe what is not you know like trying to turn them against me like people could say no but i care about her about the baby that's why i'm saying like no no no because you're moving how you're moving and you're feeling how you're feeling you know but it is what it is and i always say that i mean i don't have to be there to know that you murdered your child. Well, she even said that. She says, I was there when she died. Of course I was. I'm her mother. Right, but it's, it's, it's, it's so detached from reality.

She also doesn't say that she murdered her child, right? She doesn't use the language that you'd expect someone whose child died, someone who was killed by their own mother. She uses terms like, when she passed away, when she passed on. When God made this choice, when God took her. Right. There's no sense of agency. I could see here and be negative about the thing like, oh, like, I wish I could go back. It's something that.

But it's like, there is no point of me doing that, you know, because I cannot change what it is. You know, it is what it is. So I've learned to think positive, you know, because it's, it's, it's. It's many reasons why God took her, you know, and I see here, and I think, like, oh, what if... This is someone who murdered their child. That's a direct act. And she's describing it passively. When my daughter passed on, when my dad...

Like, no, she didn't pass on. She was murdered. There's a big difference. Like, my daughter passed away, and then, like, a whole month, I was okay. I was good. I was good. But, like, after, like, it caught up to me. You know, it cut up to me, and I was, like, I got it.

I was in a dark place, you know, and I remember I would cry and I would feel like it was, it was a lot, you know, because I see, like, I see everybody with their kids, you know, and their daughters, and it's like, you are so blessed, you know, because you have your baby, like, you have your baby there with you, you know? And obviously, I miss my daughter every single day. To really assess her, I'd have to sit with her for hours and do testing and do my normal routine, but... First impressions. We're just asking first impressions.

It seems to me that there's some bizarre beliefs and behaviors and that would be consistent with, potentially that would be consistent with some type of psychosis or serious mental illness. There's some paranoia because she's, as we pointed out, she's more concerned about other people's perceptions than she is about her own behaviors and her own murder of her child. You know, my guess is there's some other issues. Clearly, there seems to be some type of potential delusional belief system here about her child being possessed. So you've got fear.

You've got extreme religious beliefs where a child can be possessed just like Lori, Daybell, and you have mental illness, probably fairly severe mental illness. So take those three things, put them together, and you have kind of the perfect storm for philocyte. And I think all of these cases that you've talked about, which is interesting because the Daydell case preceded the pandemic. It did. They killed these kids prior to the pandemic. Yes. And then the pandemic hits. And now we're seeing all of these cases of suicide come to fruition.

And yes, our goal was prevention, if possible. But we're not, I mean, I don't know who listens to us, but we're probably not reaching that audience. Well, so some questions I have. One thing I notice in her video, take a listen in just a little bit, is she keeps saying, I'm going to tell you the truth and the story of how she died and why she died. And I know that a lot of people discuss the way she talks is word salad. You're waiting for her to say something, and she never says something yet. This video is 40 minutes long, and she just goes in circles.

One thing I'm not going to do is lie about how she passed away. When I tell you guys how she passed away and the people that know, I've been 100% honest. You know, I'd be real because why would I sit here and lie about how she passed away? Saying that she's about to say something, says something, it's all very surface and she never says anything. If that makes sense, like what's that about? Well, that's consistent with psychosis too.

It is. Yeah. So there's different ways of describing that. There's something called the flight of ideas. there's tangential thinking, there's different ways that psychologists describe that phenomenon, but it's based upon the idea that the person is struggling to formulate coherent thoughts. There's going to be lights at the end of the tunnel, you know, and, you know, like, I'm okay. I am at peace. I am happy. If you don't want to talk to me, if you don't want to be in my life because of it, that's fine.

You know what I mean? That's fine. Like, at my darkest moment, I was alone, you know, so, What makes you think I need you? Like, no, no, no, no, no. The only one that I need is God. Yeah, I, I just want to say that I appreciate each one of you who watch my videos, you know, who take the time out of your day, like I was saying, you know. Okay, guys, I was going to say something else passed in your video. I honestly forgot, but, but yeah, I, let me see.

Is there anything else? No, that's it. Okay. They're struggling to formulate like a coherent understanding of the world, right? And so I think that's part of this. She was young. Sometimes I think about, you know, Lori was older. This mother in California was a bit older.

Matthew Coleman was in his 30s. This is a 25-year-old mother. Okay, I was born April 8, 1997, and I'm going to be 25. I'm going to be 25. Like, whenever I think that I'm going to be 25, I just think, like, I'm really going to be 25. I'm going to be 25. That's crazy.

Because in just 25 years of my life, I've been through so much. You know, I've been through so much that not a lot of people go through, you know, and it's just like, anyways. So, yeah, I'm 24. Usually when I think of mental illness, I think of it maybe it takes years of this. Am I right? Is it? No, most symptoms of schizophrenia begin by late adolescence and are easily recognizable by early adulthood.

So 18 to 25, 26 is usually the range when schizophrenia is going to start showing itself. And in some cases, it's going to start showing itself very severely. It's actually, Lori Daybell is actually. the exception of the rule. Like to get, to have a diagnosis of schizophrenia or schizoaffective or one of the variants of late onset specifically is very rare. It's very unusual. In fact, it's almost unheard of. To be late 40s with schizophrenia for the first time is so unusual. It can happen. Yeah, it can happen. You know, we talked about maybe extreme stressors in the case of Lori. But I think in most cases you're going to start seeing symptoms of schizophrenia earlier, you know, early 20s, late

teens. It wouldn't be atypical. By the age of 25, if it's, if it's starting to happen, you're probably going to start seeing it. And again, I don't know, but if you talk to people that know her, I'd be curious to know if they've spotted changes in her behavior or unusual, you know, thought processes. This mother who killed our, Arlie. Arley is her daughter's name. And I don't mean to not say her daughter's name. I'm actually not completely sure how to pronounce it. So I've been avoiding it. But Arley is the girl, little girl, who lost her life. The mother is not the sole one responsible. There's an uncle involved and a grandfather. They did things as horrendous as shoving their hands down her throat to try

to get the evil spirit out. They laid her and strapped her down again for 12 hours. So it's one thing to say, well, this mother did this. Right. But there were accomplices. It was a family affair. What's your what's your take on that? I think like Chad Daybell, I think the grandfather who was apparently some type of pastor, the grandfather set the tone. I think the grandfather's the one who really instilled the beliefs, these types of extreme beliefs in the family, and convinced people that possession was real. And apparently he's been investigated for another child in the congregation that's missing, right, that they think might have been injured or kidnapped or harmed in some way.

So the grandfather, I think, plays a huge role in this in terms of influencing his granddaughter's belief system. The grandfather and probably the granddaughter grew up in a very strict and extreme religious environment, sort of like Lori. And that had some impact here, you know, that there's probably not a lot of formal education, which doesn't necessarily matter, but it could. You know, formal education could be, you know, it could be a counter to some of these extreme beliefs. There's no questioning, right? there's no reflection, there's no challenging that belief system. As you always say, education or college doesn't teach you what to think but how to think. Right.

I mean, a big part of education is learning how to learn. It's not necessarily what you learn. It's how you learn and how you're taught to challenge ideas or think critically. So I think there's, it seems like in that family and maybe in the culture they grew up in or at least some of the culture they grew up in, there's this lack of critical thinking, this lack of maybe formal education that can play a role in this. And when you say like Chad Daybell, the grandfather,

you mean like Chad Daybell sort of molded his children with his belief system and it passes through generations? Right. I mean that if you see Chad Daybell as a cult, let's call him a cult leader, then I think the grandfather would be a version of that. The grandfather would be the one leading the congregation, influences his granddaughter.

He would be cult-like. He would be a cult leader-type figure that's influencing a lot of people in this church. Do you think abuse with this young mother too, perhaps? I don't know. I mean, maybe, but it's certainly possible. you know, they're part of her. It's possible that some of her mental health issues could be driven by past trauma.

But you don't know. But it's speculation. One thing I noticed in this video were similarities with Lori Vallow, Daybell's recording before she was Daybilt for Lori Vallow when she's bearing her testimony, which means sharing her faith with a circle of friends at Melanie Gipps' home, a preparing a people, firm expo type group coming together with like-minded beliefs. She stands up and shares her testimony. And we talked about that testimony in depth on our podcast, but on our original podcast.

And one thing that you have pointed out is how Lori says that she loves the Lord and God in a way that is not of this world. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in. ORA actively removes your data from broker sites and keeps it off.

They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring, or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at ora.com slash remove for her words. The love she craves is a love not of this world.

After I've had this washing over of the Lord who gave me all of his complete love, all of his peace, which is not of this world. So I think it's easier for her to be unemotional and detached about murderer because she doesn't know what real, flesh and blood love is. And this mother, I keep wanting to call her girl, she's a mother, take a listen to this, what she says about God. And then he says, I will find you and I will rescue you.

It's true because that's exactly what he did with me. That's why I say, like, God is so amazing. Like, it's all love. I love him with everything. I talk to him. Like, he's literally my best friend. Like, wherever I'm at, I talk to him. And I don't care if you call me crazy.

fine with me. This is something that I'm not, I'm not, I'm never going to risk losing. Never. Because when nobody was there for me, he, he was. God has loved her more than anyone else has ever loved her, that that's all she turns to, that there's no answers and there's nothing that gives her more hope than God. Right. I think there's similarities. It's, and again, maybe this takes us back to where we started here, that it's a way for her to reduce her. loneliness and to reduce her feelings of isolation. So when my daughter passed away, like after, everybody left my side. Everybody. Nobody he me up.

Nobody, nobody asked me how I was doing. Nobody. And I feel so alone. I was so depressed, you know, and I was in such a dark place. There was days. I just laid, laid down in the sofa, day and night, day and night. And I would tell him like, I can't can, like, I'm tired, like, I just want, I want this pain to, like, I don't want to feel this pain. You know, like, I get so emotional because whenever I think about this, I can remember, you know, and I can feel what I felt when I was in a dark place, you know? And this is, maybe she feels somewhat. alienated in the United States.

I don't know. Like, there's, there's, and fear, right? It's a way for her to deal with her fear and her uncertainty. So all the things we talked about, I think, coming to play with, with this murder and probably with Lori, too. I could remember, you know,

and I could feel what I felt when I was in the dark place, you know? And this is, And I felt like someone was just stabbing me in the stomach with a knife all the time. I felt physical pain. I did not have a murderous heart. I just wanted to stop the bleeding and stop the pain. I grew up going to church.

I grew up believing in God, right? Everything around me was there and he was on the side, but I never made him a priority. There's a changing point in your life, right? You're a member of the church your whole life. I always love the Lord. There's a training point in my life. And I became who I am today. When I put him in the center of my life, my life changed.

So I just turned it all over to the Lord. I'm like, I can't do it. It is life changing. He has always been there for me. Like, when nobody was there for me, he was. And I'm his friend. He is with me. Another thing that I noticed, she says,

which is very interesting. Take a listen to this. At least she's not suffering, you know, like in this world we suffer so much, you know, and especially nowadays, like, everything is just so bad, like, everything just going downhill, you know, and that's what I'm thankful for, you know,

that she's not going to grow up in that world, like in the world that we live in, you know? Even though there is a lot of positive things, and I could say, like, oh, I'm not going to see her grow up, this and that. But like I told you, like, There's no point of me doing that, you know, because it is what it is. It is what it is, you know.

So she essentially says, you know, this world is really scary. This world is really evil. I'm really glad that my daughter will not have to grow up in this world. You know, I'm glad she's in a better place and won't have to deal with this life because life pretty much sucks. In this world, we suffer so much, you know, and especially now, Nowadays, like, everything is just so bad. Like, that's what I'm thankful for, you know, that she's not going to grow up in that world. And while we haven't heard Lori Dayball's motives, I imagine in my mind something similar.

Like, Tiley and JJ are in a better place. They're safe with God. It almost feels like justifying the murder. But I wanted your opinion on this, too, this moment. Yeah, it's a pretty striking moment. My first response to that is, well, then why did you have a child? Right. A child fundamentally is in some ways about hope and about raising someone who can impact that world that you're talking about.

Of course, there's a huge irony there that she has a child and then she decides the world is too difficult for that child to handle. But it's only difficult because that's how she perceives it. And again, that could have something to do with her psychotic, potentially psychotic features. It speaks to her fears. she can't speak or understand what a three-year-old envisions because a three-year-old doesn't have that vision. So she's talking about her fears of the world and her fears of the future and her fears around maybe the lack of, I don't know, the polarization in this country, whatever. It's a projection of her fears for her child. It's not really about her child per se.

The detachment, or as you point, not being in reality is quite clear and apparent in this video. I think that's the most disturbing and depressing thing about it, in my opinion. I know you mentioned psychosis. You know, I can't help but think about narcissism or detachment or selfishness would be a more basic word. You're so selfish, you know, or a lack of love for your child. What am I seeing or what am I sensing? Well, all of those could be related to some type of psychosis. I think the fundamental problem here is when you watch what's most disturbing about the video for me is the fact that this is a mother who murdered her child.

And let's use that term because that's what this is. This is a mother who murdered her child and doesn't see that as problematic. In fact, she thinks that she's doing her child. the favor, right? And so this is a mother who murdered her child and doesn't see it as murder. Doesn't take responsibility for that. Doesn't have any agency or any ability to grasp the nature of what she did. And so I don't know how it would be hard not to see that as being detached from reality. I think it would be hard not to see that as somewhat psychotic because, yes, some of it is related to this extreme worldview and this extreme religiosity. But I think it goes beyond that.

It speaks to the fact that she just doesn't have any grasp of reality and what it means to murder a three-year-old. And the repercussions from that are so enormous, right? And so grave and so serious. And yet, she's doing this video trying to appeal to follow. She's trying to get follow. on social media for a murder she committed that she doesn't see as murder her. The first video, I didn't think I was going to get that much views to be honest. I thought it was going to be like a couple because, you know, like it was just nothing like, you know, but I actually got like a hundred and something, like a hundred and one or so. I got a hundred and something views, right?

And then I got 12 subscribers like, like, I was surprised because I was like, wait a minute, because I didn't even like, you know, I was just being my, so, but I like it, you know, and I really appreciate you guys. It's pretty crazy. It's pretty striking. Right. And it's clear she doesn't because you're right. If she was, if she was in reality, she would never be doing a public YouTube, you know, live saying what she did and pointing out who she is. In fact, that's one thing Lori Daibald did not do. Lori was a lot more manipulative and hit things. And this, this, this woman is going on a YouTube live saying here I am my child's dead and I did it right she's going on

a YouTube live saying I murdered my kid well she's not using that term I'm but she's that's what she did I murdered my kid why don't you guys join me and follow me because I did the right thing and I mean it's crazy a normal response to what she did would be to flee the country to go back to El Salvador right like that that's how a normal person with a conscience would handle the situation, somebody who had any grasp of the consequences of her actions and what the meaning of what she did, the magnitude of what she did, I think they would be fleeing the country instantly and recognizing the severity of what they did. But not her. You know, she's Julie Rose style in her car. Yep. You're not dancing like Julie Rose. You're not doing her little,

you know. It's very Julie Roe-esque. It's very Julie Roe-ask, and she's looking to get attention. So for the giveaway, I told you, I told you guys to message me on Instagram with their cell or cash shop. And guess who did it? Drumroll. Nobody did it. Nobody sent me up. Nobody messaged me their cash app, their cell.

So it is what it is. It is what it is. You know, I don't know what to tell you. Like, I'm not going to sit here and say you guys have another week. No, because I gave you guys a week, you know? Not understanding that murdering your child is probably going to get you the death penalty or life in prison. It's not going to get you followers on social media. It's going to provoke interest.

That's why we're talking about it. But we're talking about it because it's such an outlier. We're not talking about it because we want to follow her on, you know, Instagram. Yeah. And again, that's one difference with Lori Daybough. Lori did use manipulative tactics. She manipulated police and law enforcement when they showed up at her Rexberg house during the welfare check. We saw that over and over again on body camp footage. So would that be why you've never said perhaps there's some psychosis with her? And I think this is why so many people are mad that she's been deemed incompetent. I, you know, because people have seen her manipulation.

Right. I think Chad and Lori understood that there were repercussions for their behaviors. So in that sense, they were much more grounded in reality. I mean, their views were quite different in the sense that they felt like they could justify or rationalize their behaviors because they believe that the New Jerusalem may have been a better place for whoever. I don't know about their kids, but they could somehow justify their behaviors by suggesting that people would be on the other side of the veil. Tammy's on the other side of the veil, working on family history greeted by her ancestors and is so happy, Chad said. Right, whereas I think it's not clear in this case what her beliefs are about the afterlife. And I mean, I think she clearly has some beliefs about the afterlife and her child being maybe safer somewhere.

I don't know. But she doesn't talk about that. But right, there's a total lack of awareness about law, right? About the consequences of her behavior. That even Laurie and Chad grasp. Right. I think in that sense, this is definitely moving more towards psychosis or some type of extreme mental illness. Because this was such a spontaneous podcast episode, and so I've been saying the three-year-old,

and I just want to say it's Arlie Naomi Proctor Hernandez. She is beautiful and adorable. In fact, her own mother put her smiling photograph as the thumbnail for her. her YouTube video where she discusses this. But that is a little girl who lost her life. Coming full circle, John, and I want to discuss the Matthew Coleman case more too because we have been delving deep into some research there and learning more. But going back to that thing about us saying, well, we hope that we can prevent this from ever happening again because, right, we thought it was such a unique case. And we've been seeing that.

so many. What would you say now? Again, as you point out, we're not probably reaching these type of people, but, you know, there was actually a woman in True Crime Underground, Lori Daybell, cult mom, who killed her son, shot him, her seven-year-old son, her only child. She was in our Facebook group. So in some ways, our podcast can reach these type of people. You never know. You never know. You never know. Right. What would you say to hopefully prevent this from happening? I'd say we're all afraid. Like, the healthiest thing to do is to acknowledge our fear and to recognize our fear

and to recognize its impact on our beliefs and how it's affecting our life. and if possible to reach out to people to talk about it without resorting to kind of these extreme types of beliefs or without seeking comfort. In other words, don't run away from the fear. Try to face it. And I know that's easier said than done. But fear, anxiety, stress,

I think that's the basis for a lot of this. Uncertainty, dealing with uncertainty. You know, my short answer is do your best to face your fears, as hard as that is, and try to really reflect on your life and who you are and look at it possible. If you're thinking about these types of things or you're having fantasies about homicide, look at the repercussions of that. When you kill your child, there's no coming back from that. Right? Not only have you eliminated a child from the planet, but you've essentially taken your own life too.

I mean, in many cases and many suicide cases, these are murder, you know, suicides. But clearly she's maybe if she's deemed to be insane, maybe she has some chance to get out of a mental, you know, a criminal mental institution at some point. but it's probably unlikely. I guess if she undergoes a complete transformation, maybe, but I don't know. So I think it's what I would say to any criminal I've worked with, which is have courage, you know, try to find some courage to really look at yourself

and look at your mind and look at who you are. And if you have that courage, then there's a possibility for change, no matter how heinous your crime has been or no matter what you've done. Thank you. Thank you, John. Anything else you want to say? Thank you for this wonderful conversation.

I appreciate we posted your Putin episode, and I am looking forward to you doing more episodes. I know that you've really been studying and reading. Unputin? Yes. Yep, yep. There's more coming on Puton, more formal episodes. And can I finish tenor?

Yes, you can. Okay, I'm going to, I have a pizza. It's cold now. A cold slice of pizza sitting in front of me. So I'm going to go ahead and finish that, but I didn't think we would take this long to do this impromptu episode. But thanks for joining us, guys. We really appreciate you. We love our Patreon.

on community and how smart and insightful you guys are. So thank you so much for being with us again. Thank you. Thank you. Have a good night. Hello. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers.

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