Hidden True Crime - TRIAL DAY 7 | Lori's UNHINGED Texts, STEAMY convos & The State RESTS! ! | Lori Vallow Daybell

Episode Date: April 17, 2025

Get the sleep you deserve with up to 35% off Dream. Just click https://shopbeam.com/hiddentruecrime and use code TRUECRIME at checkout. TO READ ALL FOIA DOCS/ PAGES EVIDENCE IN THIS CASE: https://www.patreon.com/posts/daybell-foias-of-57458367?utm_medium=clipboard_copy&utm_source=copyLink&utm_campaign=postshare_creator&utm_content=join_link FOR DR JOHN MATTHIAS THOUGHTS ON TRIAL: https://www.patreon.com/posts/exclusive-dr-one-126604117?utm_medium=clipboard_copy&utm_source=copyLink&utm_campaign=postshare_creator&utm_content=join_link LIMITED TRIAL MERCH: https://www.bonfire.com/store/hidden-true-crime-limited-merch/?srsltid=AfmBOorK3rfVJApWVoJM_d45Hy5H4WmmZHho91520TH54ytNhjp55lTb About Hidden True Crime: What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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So let's go through the whole thing. And it actually started, I just have to say with Kay Woodcock greeting me this morning in court. And I gave her a hug and a hello from all of the hidden gems. It was so good to see her in our live chat last night. Well, today started and ended. with a very important witness that we have all been waiting for. And that is Detective Nathan Duncan. Detective Duncan works in the robbery and homicide unit for the Chandler Police Department

and has definitely been instrumental in the other trials thus far. In fact, he testified in both Lori's Idaho trial as well as Chad Daybell's trial. And on July 11, 2019, Duncan responded to Lori's resident. where Charles Vallow had been shot and killed. And when he arrived, there were other emergency vehicles present and crime scene tape had already been placed. After being brief on the situation, Duncan was asked to assist Detective Coons with processing the crime scene.

They waited for a search warrant to be approved and for CSI to photograph the scene before entering the house around 1153 a.m. Before making their own visual observations, they utilized the lizard queue system that's that 360 degree photo system, that we heard about last week, and Duncan then began explaining what he observed inside the house, which would now be the crime scene. He stated that as you enter the front door, there is a

small foyer with black and white checkered flooring, and after that you step into what Duncan referred to as the great room, which at the time had no furnishings. There was a mirror on the north wall, a large picture window on the east wall, a mirror on the south wall, and a mirror on on the west wall. And Duncan noticed Charles's body lying on the floor in the western portion of the room in a supine position with his head to the north, feet to the south, and arms on each side of his body. Duncan said that Charles appeared to be physically fit and there didn't appear to be very much blood around the scene. However, there was blood on Charles's left hand in the webbing of his fingers, which likely came from the wound on the left portion of his chest. And at this

moment just so you know we are seeing photographs in the courtroom of Charles Vallow and of his hand where he had that portion of blood on his hand. Duncan stated that he assumed this meant that Charles had placed that hand up to his chest at some point before coming to rest. And next, prosecutor Trina K displayed a photo of the scene after the fire department had attempted to render aid. So some of their equipment was left attached to Charles's body in the photo we could see his left hand with blood on some of the fingers. Duncan testified that he didn't notice much pooling of blood around Charles's body until after the medical examiner came and moved him around and eventually out of the home. He also stated that even though there were several mirrors in that room,

none of them appeared to have any damage or even cracks. Duncan noticed that a bat in the room, that baseball bat on Charles's right side. Again, remember Charles's left handed, but it was on Charles's right side and just north of his head. And as they were processing the home, Duncan was looking for other potential areas of blood evidence like drops or smears other than just on or around Charles's body, looking for blood evidence anywhere he could. The only other area with blood was a small smear found on the kitchen faucet, which again, we also saw photographs up. He also looked for items like shirts or towels that could have been used to clean up blood but did not locate any. At some point during the investigation, Duncan entered into what Trina referred to as the pink room, which is where Alex's gun was located.

Trina displayed a photo of this room where Duncan observed the gun lying next to an orange duffelback. And after the crime scene technician took photos of these items, Duncan used gloves to pick up the gun and examine it. To make the gun safe, he removed the magazine and cycled the slide a few times to remove any potential cartridges from the tree. chamber. And as he did that, one single 45 caliber cartridge fell out. Prosecutor Trina displayed photos of the removed magazine and the casing that fell out of the gun. And inside the orange duffel bag was a gun case with no locks and only a plastic clasp to keep it closed. So much for gun safety with JJ running around. There were extra magazines inside the gun case as well. And later, after taking the items to the police station,

Duncan located a debit card and a health savings card with Alex's name in the side pocket of the duffel back. Well, after learning that Alex claimed to have an injury on the back of his head, Duncan looked to see if there was any blood transfer from Alex touching his head and then holding the gun. So let's listen actually to Duncan explain this. Take a listen. Did you learn at some point that he did? Yes. Knowing that he had an injury to his head, were you, did that play in? Well, let me ask you.

When did you learn that? I believe it was during the investigation. We learned that Alex had sustained an injury to his head. So with that, made us more aware of potential other blood evidence, and that's why we were looking for that. Okay. So is that why you're, one of the reasons why you're looking on this gun to see if, if there was any blood transferred from him potentially touching his injury and manipulating the gun at some point. Yes, from our understanding, there was some sort of assault with this, or assault with a bat,

and then Alex then retrieved to the bedroom to get the gun. So our understanding is if you get hit with a bat and you're bleeding, that you would hopefully bring some sort of blood evidence onto the gun, and then what happens after there's more blood evidence as well. So you would have documented that and then made sure it was collected if you'd seen that. Absolutely. But here we photographed the gun without any blood evidence on it. Yes.

After the medical examiner removed Charles's body, Duncan testified that he and the other detectives cleaned up the blood that had been left underneath Charles on the floor. And that is when they noticed, a defect on the floor consistent with a bullet strike that would have been under the exit wound on Charles's life. left shoulder. And Duncan couldn't miss it. Trina displayed photos of this bullet strike defect, which Duncan used to help paint a picture of what took place. Let's listen to the conclusion he made from this evidence. Well, in this scene, we're trying to make sense of kind of what happened with limited information. We know we have two casings and we know we have two projectiles. We have a projectile that's into the wall and we also have a projectile that is near Charles body. We don't, we believe, obviously the first shot or a shot went through and through his body

causing two holes and entered into the wall. The other shot we have is a low left abdominal entry and what we believe and not confirmed the tall autopsy, but the upper left trajectory near his shoulder. We looked through the room to where this projectile could have exited throughout the room and then landed in that spot near where Charles was. And we did not see anything until his body was removed and the blood was cleaned up. So you're looking like walls and trying to find any other location where the bullet may have struck and bounced back and ended up in the floor there. Correct. And you didn't find any defects or any holes or anything other than the one bullet that was in that baseboard.

Correct. So when you see this now, did you feel that was consistent with the bullet striking the floor underneath Charles and him being on the floor when he was shot? 100%. Next, Duncan testified that even though Lori had access to Charles' rental car the entire day of the shooting,

he doesn't believe anyone ever searched it. So now we know the rental car was not searched. Going forward, in the investigation, investigation, Duncan assisted Detective Moffat in analyzing and sorting through phone data like iCloud, phone records, emails, and text messages. He stated that after examining the text messages between Lori and Charles, he noticed an obvious change in their interactions after June 27th, 2019. He also found an email saved on Charles' iCloud that eventually led him to believe that Lori may have been having an affair, you think? Let's listen to Duncan explain about

this email. Did you learn from reviewing Charles Vallow's cell phone extraction in ICloud accounts that Charles had found an email sent to Chad Daybell that was purportedly written by him? Yes, I did. Did that involve an email address KKWalker 75 at Yahoo? Yes, it did. Did Charles Vallow, in fact, save a copy of that email into his account.

Yes, he did. In reviewing Charles Valo's cell phone extraction and ICloud account, prior to this time in June, had you seen any use of this KK Walker 75 at yahoo.com email address? Prior to June 27th, 2019, had you seen Charles Valo utilizing that email address. Had I seen Charles utilize it? Sorry, no, I did not.

So even though you're going through his account, you're seeing emails by him, right? Right. And you're seeing emails that are saved into his own ICloud account. Yes. But nothing in there was saved prior to June of 27th of 2019 relating to KKWalker75 at Yahoo.com. That is correct.

Was the first time that you kind of became aware of this account, when you saw that Charles had saved an email and then began texting Lori Valo about it? Yes. Did you find multiple text messages or SMS messages from Charles Valo to Lori Valo relating to this letter? Yes, I did. Did you find evidence that Charles Valo, after discovering this? this email contacted Chad Daybell. Yes.

Did you find evidence that after Charles Vallow found this KK Walker 75 email address that Charles Vallow contacted Chad Daybell's wife, Tammy Daybell? Yes. Was a search warrant executed on Yahoo for that KKWalker 75 at yahoo.com? It was. If I can add my paralegal approach

So 289. Okay. Does 289 include first an affidavit from Yahoo, authenticating the KKWalker 75 at yahoo.com account? It does. Does it include information for the subscriber? It does. And does it include a portion of the emails associated with that account?

Yes, it is. When you looked at the subscriber information, What was the name of the person subscribing to this? Karen Walker. Did that person provide a phone number? Yes, they did. And so when they're subscribing to sign this up, is that often a requirement to provide some sort of phone number

or way to authenticate these? Yes. Did you recognize that phone number? I did. How did you recognize it? The phone number was linked to an old phone number for Lori Ballow. Someone just asked who was Karen Walker. Well, we just learned.

Karen Walker was actually Lori Ballo. And during the time when the emails were sent, Lori and Charles were living in Houston, Texas. First, Lori pretended to be someone, again, named Karen Walker, to send emails to Chad, her lover. Other lover. Eventually, she pretended to be Charles in order to ask, to come to Texas to help him write a book.

So let's listen for a little more clarification on these emails because during my lunch live, I made it a little confusing and I promised you that we would have clarification. Take a listen. Now, some of the emails that were sent starting sort of April 21st were to Brother Davell, to Chad Daybell. Yes. And we see up here to Chad Daybell, correct? Correct.

And then we see the date of Sunday, April 21st of 2019. Yes. And so in this email do we see that Heron is inviting Brother Daybell to Houston? Yes. In these messages was a final message, one that you found saved by Charles Vallow on around June 27th or 28th. This, what we see is exhibit again, 289. Correct. In this message, it's from the KKKK.

Walker email it is so these prior emails we saw a person purporting to be Karen Walker using Lori Daybill's phone number writing to brother Davell right yes but here we see someone again from this same email now purporting to be Charles Valo yes again talking about a preparing the people conference correct and had you heard of the preparing the people conference before I had. Is that something that Lori Valo was involved in? Yes.

And is that something we've heard about through testimony here at court? We have. In this, does Charles Valo, or the person writing this email, again, ask Chad Dayball to come out to visit, to help write a book? Correct. Is this then the email that Charles then began reaching out to Lori, Chad, and Tammy about? Yes. We had heard from Adam that he also had learned of this.

Did you see evidence of Charles Vallow also sending this letter that we see in 289 to Adam? I did. Based upon your review of the case and the dates on here, did Charles Valo begin confronting Lori Valo and Chad Daybell about the affair less than two weeks before he was killed? He did. And did you, in fact, see emails that Charles Valo sent to Chad Daybell on June 29th and 30th? I did. And did you, in fact, see emails that Charles Valo sent to Tammy Daybell on June 29th?

and June 30th of 2019. I did. You thought this was your run club era. Turns out it was more of a thinking about run club era. The good news? Someone's marathon training is about to start. Sell your workout gear on Deepop. Just snap a few photos and we'll take care of the rest.

They get their race day fit and you get a payout for trying. Someone on Deepop wants what you've got. Start selling now. Deepop, where taste recognizes taste. When Charles decided to confront Lori about the emails and the assumed affair, he was still living in Texas and Lori was back in Arizona. So after the confrontation, Charles did not see Lori again until July 11th, which was the day of the fatal shooting.

That's important. That points to motive. He has discovered her affair. And next, Detective Duncan transitioned into talking about what he found on two of Lori's eye cloud accounts. He located screenshots of flight information from a trip Lori took to Idaho in March of 2019 and screenshots of flights both Chad and Lori took to fly back to Arizona together on March 19th. Leading up to July 11th, Duncan located text messages between

Charles and Adam Cox as well. Remember, Adam, who testified. These included their messages on the day of the shooting when Charles approached the house and told Adam through text that Alex was there. And Adam replied, quote, they're planning something, end quote, and told Charles that he was supposed to spend the night with Alex. But Lori probably stopped that from happening. Charles replied, quote, what you do is up to you, end quote. And a few moments later, Adam wrote. quote, quote, I'm going to put the pressure on to have him come and get me now and see what he says, end quote. Charles didn't reply, and after that it appeared as though he was no longer reading his text. At 7.49 a.m., Adam sent one more message about going to play basketball at the stake center

and hope to talk to their stake president, a church leader while playing basketball in the church building. And as we know, Charles had already made his way until, Lori's house and those messages were not opened until 12, 13 p.m. by someone clearly that wasn't Charles, someone other than Charles. Duncan testified that it was Lori who was in possession of Charles's phone at that time, so it can be assumed that she is the one who read those final messages from her brother Adam. However, there was actual evidence showing that Lori and Alex had gone through Charles's phone that day as well. Next, prosecutor Trina displayed photos that were extracted from Alex's phone.

These were photos of text messages on Charles's phone between him and Adam regarding their trip and plan to record Lori for an intervention, a bit of a religious intervention where they get the church leaders involved. Let's take a look at those texts. So in this image that Verizon sent, it's showing an actual phone.

Have you seen Charles Allo's phone? Yes. Did it look like the same shape as it's, phone. Yes. We see a time of 2.13 p.m. correct? Correct. When you were going through Charles Vallow's phone itself and the extraction, did you see this message between Charles Vallow and Adam Cox? I did. Did in fact Charles place the flight or book a flight for Adam Cox to come to Phoenix? He did. Was there another image showing a closer up of the portion of that call, with the flight information for Adam Cox?

Yes. And did it also include a screenshot where Adam talks about going to see Lurier House and having a talk with her and keeping his phone on record? Yes. And were these all messages, text messages between Adam and Charles that you found on the extraction report? They are. And these are images that were saved by Verizon associated to Alex Cox's phone.

Yes. So the Chandler Police Department had Charles' phone back in their possession by three or so in the afternoon of July 11th, correct? Yes. And it's been in Chandler Police Department's possession. It has. And yet the Verizon records for Alex Cox

show photographs of Charles' phone and those conversations between Charles and Adam. Yes. Now, did you learn in this investigation whether or not Lori Valo knew the pin to enter Charles' phone? I did. And did she in fact provide that to detective N-plan

so that it was easy to get into Charles' phone? Yes. So on July 11th, Lori Ballo has Charles Valo's phone and she knows the PIN number to access it. Yes. And it's in her possession. Correct. Did you ever find evidence that Alex Cox sent those photos of Charles Valo's phone showing Adam's flight reservations to Lori Ballow on July 13 of 2019? I did.

Next, Trina showed an image of Lori's ICloud account, which proved that she and Alex, shared the photos they took of Charles' phone and the conversations with Adam. Duncan stated that given all of the cell phone data, it's clear that Charles would have been lying dead on the floor or close to 45 minutes at best before Alex even placed the call to 911. The cell phone records also show that Alex decided to call Lori two times before calling 911 as well, once just a few minutes after she left the house and another about 17 minutes later.

Duncan stated that he used all of this data to see if everyone's stories match the digital evidence. And as we know, Adam Cox has testified that he reached out to Alex to see if he could stay with him while he was in Arizona. There's digital evidence that shows that Adam called Alex on July 9th and they spoke for over 20 minutes. Adam also testified that he had tried to contact Alex when he landed in Arizona on July 10th, but didn't get a response. Duncan said there is phone data that proves that Alex never replied to any of the other. of Adams' calls or text after he arrived in Arizona. There was also evidence of the text Adams sent the morning of the shooting after he told Charles he was going to see if Alex would reply.

So basically, all of Adam's testimony was corroborated by the phone records. Detective Duncan stated that during the data extraction from Charles' phone, he located the lease agreement for a rental house where Lori was living. The lease was for the dates between June 22nd, 2019, and June 30th, 2020. 22. Duncan explained that in another one of Lori's iCloud accounts, he located a recording of Chad speaking at a preparing the people conference in Arizona and November 17, 2018, preparing a people. Remember, that is now Latter-day Media and it's run by Mike and Nancy James. It's a prepping and visionary conference. In this iCloud, Duncan also located text messages between Lori and Alex

in which they discussed Ned or the dark spirit that they believed had taken over Charles's body. The first time they mentioned Ned in text was in February of 2019. We can take a look at some of these really damning messages right here. Between Lori Valo and her brother, Alex Cox, where they're talking about Ned. We help at least. It was the first time that you found that reference to Ned from February 15th of 2019 from Alex Cox to Lori Vallow. Yes, it is.

And is that where we see Alex saying that Ned was at the temple yesterday looking for you. He thinks you are staying with me. Correct. And so again, we see the source is the Lori for style, correct? Yes. And we see two. These are, this is Lori Vallow's I cloud account, correct? And that's the number that we.

have associated with her with T-Mobile? Yes. And then Alex Cox's Verizon record. Correct. During your investigation on February 15th of 2019, is this the time period where Lori Vallow had disappeared and was no longer in contact with Charles Vallow? Yes.

Is this the time period where Charles had J.J. by himself? Yes. And do we see then Lori Vallow saying, that's good that he is so off, I guess? Yes. The next time we see the reference to Ned is that in March 2nd of 2019, again from Alex Cox to Laurie Vallo. Yes. And as he advised, Ned just came by entirely unleashed on him.

He came to my house and he went to Summers first. He ran up in a rental car. Correct. So again, your understanding. understanding is from this investigation from testimony of court that Ned was Charles. Yes. Now again, we talk about there was a time period

when Lori is both we've heard in Hawaii and in Idaho, correct? Correct. Do we also see Alex trying to get Lori Valo's new address? Yes. And she gives him a lulley time forever at G. email.com, correct? Correct. So that's another address that she had.

Yes. Now we heard, again, Ned being associated to Charles, do we have a text message on March 26th of 2019 from Alex to Lori saying, Ned is still alive just confirmed? Correct. This next message is that from Lori Ballot

to Alex. Yes. And it says, it's not Ned, right? Correct. So it's not even a he, it's, it's. And does then we have another message, it's a new one, Ned is gone? Correct. Does this around the time where we've heard of that girls weekend? Yes. Where they were trying to cast out the evil spirit in Charles? Correct. As you continued in this Lori for style, do we see again, Lori, texting Alex saying no one has seen him right just talk to him correct and then Alex says correct Charles body is alive right yes so we in your investigation and through the testimony here at trial have you heard people indicate that Charles's body was possessed by an evil spirit I have and they're trying to cast out this evil spirit yes so

Here we see that it's not Charles is alive. It's Charles's body's alive. Correct. Does Alex then respond to Lori? What did you learn? Yes. That one's from Alex to Lori. Correct.

And then does she respond a lot still working on it. We'll call you later. That's correct. When you went through a lot of these records, did you see a lot of reference to telling people to call her. Yes. Obviously, we don't have those recordings, right?

Correct. And so would you often see calls then in the phone records to match up with a request to call? Yes. Well, Duncan testified that Lori made a new I-Cloud account after Charles became suspicious of her having an affair with chat. In the I-Cloud, we could see photos from Lori's text messages, including an older copy of Charles' life insurance.

policy with Lori listed as his beneficiary. There was also a photo of a computer screen with a form Charles used to change his beneficiary from Lori to Kay Woodcock. And on July 28th, Lori sent a copy of these photos to Chad, who she had saved as Bobby in her phone. Yes, Bobby, we now have another wonderful nickname for Chad, Bobby. She was trying to show that she was originally Charles' beneficiary, but he changed it. Charles changed it without Lori knowing. And in this new ICloud account, there were

several text message exchanges between Lori and Alex as well. And in those texts, Duncan would see that Lori gave Alex her new address to the rental home. And on July 9th, they had that discussion of being like Nephi. Let's take a look at some of these messages. So at 9 o'clock on the 9th, Do we see a message from Lori Vallow to Alex Cox? So the plot thickens call me when you can. Yes. Now at that point, when you looked at phone records, did you see any call between Lori Vallow and Alex Cox initially after this first text message?

Not after the first one, no. So about 47 minutes later on July 9th at 9. 9.50 p.m. does Lori Valo send her brother Alex Cox a message, getting sleepy, so I'm going to need you to stay close to me the next couple days. Mel, too. She can't go to Utah. They are plonking some kind of intervention, but want Mel out of the way so I'm left alone. I need to come get the stuff at your house tomorrow and store it or secure it. Lots to do. Thank you for standing by, me. It's all coming to ahead this week. I will

be like Nephi. I am told and so will you. When you saw that message, did you ever check Alex Cox's cell phone records to determine whether or not there was a phone call after that? I did.

Did you see that Alex Cox and Lori Valo talked on July 9th at 2156 hours. What time would that be? 9.56. So six minutes after this,

or 56 minutes? Correct. So six minutes after this text message, Lori and her brother have almost an hour long conversation. Yes. Now, in this message, when you are going through these records, did you recognize or learn who Nephi was?

So in going through this particular message, I knew that Nephi was a figure in the book of Mormon related to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but I didn't understand the significance. So I then did some research to find out who Nephi was. You are present in court when Adam testified, correct? Yes. And did his testimony about Nephi being told by the Holy Spirit to kill Laban and that this was a justified killing? match with what you had learned when you researched it. Yes, it did. Duncan explained that while it took a while for the investigators to research all of the phone numbers,

obtained search warrants from the various phone companies and sift through all of the information, as we know, on July 9th, Adam and Charles were discussing having an intervention for Lori and filming some things that she said to present to their church leader, the stake president. After being able to see everybody's phone interactions, Duncan found that on that same day, Lori messaged Alex about Charles and Adam potentially setting up an intervention for her. And the next messages we could see were from July 10th, with Lori and Alex discussing meeting up for lunch with Mel. That same day, Lori invited Alex over to her house, and he agreed to come. There were no text between them on July 11th, and then the next messages we would see were on July 13th.

Lori texted Alex, quote, need you, Adam is freaking out, end quote. And Duncan said that this was around the same time that Adam first learned that Charles had been killed. So think about that. Lori texting Alex, need you. Adam is freaking out. And it was right when Adam learned Charles had been killed. On August 12th, Lori texted Alex letting him know that she was at the social security office.

This is the day she went to apply for her survivor benefits. Duncan testified that when analyzing Lori's text, he came upon several messages in which she referred to various people who were connected and to Charles as Z's. Quote, Z's. Just the letter Z. Kina and Detective Duncan go through a lot of messages here, so let's just listen together.

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Task performance does not guarantee future results. Correct. Does Lori then go on to speak of more? Zs. She does. Does she in fact say, again, still on this September 3rd conversation, more sad news, guess who is the final Z of the 24? Yes. And Alex questions if it's pops are branded?

Correct. And then Alex also says, Zach. So Lori tells, guess who the final Z of the 24 is, right? Correct. And we see from Alex, he guesses Pops or Brandon with a question mark. Yes. And then Alex also responds, Zach. Correct.

And sort of the times here are close in time. Correct. We have 102029 and 102043. Lori responds, nope, think of Judas. Who loved me completely, then turned against me? Yes. And then we see Alex asking, saying, tell me. Correct.

And Lori Valo says to Alex, yes, our sweet Zach, he is in paradise, the real Zach. It makes final sense. Can you push that up further than that? That is correct. And does Alex then ask Lori, his sister, when this happened? Yes. So we're still on this same date. And does Lori then tell Alex about the time he turned makes sense he being dedicated to Brandon and Ned?

Yes. So again, we're still seeing this reference of Ned being Charles. Correct. And so now they're tying Adam, Zach, and Brandon with Charles. Correct. And so do we see again, so from Alex to Lori, so February? Yes. And again, is this around that time period where Lori Valo disappeared?

Correct. Left JJ with Charles. Yes. and we had heard in the interview that the defendant gave with Detective N. Klan that she told her about her just leaving and disappearing. Yes. As that conversation goes on, does Alex then say,

how did Zach die or was he forced out? He does. Previously, in the lorry for style, had we seen, again, a reference of Charles' body being alive? but ned being gone yeah and again we've heard people testify as to um charles being possessed by that evil spirit yes and the unknown of if that spirit went away what that would mean for charles correct so this conversation then after alex asked lorry how did zach die or was he forced out um does lorry go on to say it's crazy i know but it's

sad and true, now we know all 24, right? Yes. And then she also tells Alex forced out, I think. Correct. And did Alex then say with his anxiety, he wasn't strong enough to fight back? Yes. And he said, hmm. So throughout this time period, from back from February of 2019, up through September after this,

Are we still seeing Lori talking about Charleneed Ned? Yes. This concept of Z or zombies. Correct. And others that seem to have helped Charles were equally dark. Yes. Next, Duncan testified that he also observed text messages between Lori and her sister Summer. On July 10th, Summer provided her sister Lori with updates on Adam and his son, Zach's location.

Let's listen to some of those messages between Lori and her sister, Summer. On July 10th at 204, Summer's asking if Lori can talk. Yes. And then about 34 minutes later, does she advise that mom is in the car with Adam and Zach on the way home from Sky Harbor? Correct. And so we knew that Adam came in early afternoon on the 10th, right? Yes. And then Summer tells her sister, Lori Vallow.

She wanted to know if she could confront him as a preemptive strike. I told her no just to collect info. Yes. So we know from the ninth in that conversation or that text message by Lori Vallow to her brother Alex that she's aware there's an intervention about to happen. Correct. And she is rallying the troops. around her. Correct. And her mom is asking if she can help by doing a preemptive strike. Yes. Then do we see an instant message also on the 10th, 10 or 243 from Mimi. Adam thinks Melanie left for

Utah today because that's the last he knew. I just left it that way. Again, going back to that July 9th message, did Lori tell Alex that Mel had to stay and she couldn't go to Utah. Yes. As summer continues updating Lori Vallow on July 10th at 248, does she tell her they're headed to Mimi's house? Correct. And then as we continue on at seven on seven 10 at three 29 does summer provide an update again that Zach and Adam are headed to a Spider-Man movie in the time that that that is happening at? Yes later. Then on 710 at 456, we see again a message from summer. I think so just me and the kids here, right? Correct. Then we see a reference to JJ at 710 at 625, but he left his wrist brace and ukulele there, right? Yes.

At 626 p.m. on July 10th, does Summer then offer Lori that she could stay at her house? She does. She tells her, would you rather stay here this week while we are gone? That way no one would know you were here. We can tell Zach we are putting Zeus in a kennel. Correct. So she's willing to lie to Zach so her sister can stay at her house and have no one know where she is. Apparently.

Then she continues to update, Lori, that at 8.10 p.m. on the 10th, that Zach and Adam are still here playing phase 10 in eating. right yes and as the night goes on summer then advises that again keeping or updated where adam and Zach are correct did this message say again that adam was waiting for al to text him back yes so again we knew adam was thinking he was staying without right correct and then finally at 854 we see adam and Zach just left to go to meanies yes And so we heard from Adam that they stayed with his parents. Correct.

And then on the 11th, did we just see instant messages from summer reaching out to Lori saying, how's it going today? Yes. No responses on those. Next, Trina and Detective Duncan clarified that B. Mel referred to in the Nephi text between Alex and Lori is their niece Melanie Boudreau, who is married to Brandon Boudreau. His trial is coming up, so remember Melanie Boudreau's name. Duncan was able to analyze text messages between Lori and Melanie as well,

and we can listen to those two. Let's take a listen. We see messages with Alex Cox that are a little bit later where we're talking to the plot thickens, call me when you can, right? Correct. So these messages to Melanie B occur before, but it's the same sort of thing. So the plot thickens call me when you can.

We see a message from Lori to Melanie. Need to talk to you ASAP, right? Correct. And then I'll call you in five finding out what to do, correct? Correct. And then a response of K. Yes. As sort of the night goes on,

we see some sort of messages of Melanie updating Lori of where she is and what's going on, right? Correct. And then we see from Lori telling Melanie at 8 o'clock, you can't go tomorrow. It's a set up for both of us still on the phone, finding out the details. Correct. At that time, she hasn't sent the message yet to Alex, correct? Correct.

So the Nephi message has not gone out yet. Yes. So then we see Lori Ballo sending to Melanie B. they have an elaborate plan, I'll call you soon. Correct? Correct. Then as the time goes on, we see a message again. Now from Melanie saying, I could take all the babies and drive and take our stuff.

But Lori responds, you can't go at all. We both need to stay here to defend ourselves, right? Can you move that up, please? Sure. Yes, sorry. That is correct. So Lori is telling her you can't go. Yes.

And this is where then we see a message from Lori Valor to Melanie B. It's coming to a head. This week will change everything. Yes. And that's where Melanie B says, probably why I felt sick about going even when told the plan to go. Correct. And then again,

we see another call me. Right? Correct. Now, when we look at timing, we know again, when we go to 227, that the plot thickens to Alex is at 903, right? Yes.

And so now we also have the plot thickens also sent here where they're talking. That's Alex. Sorry, that's Alex, yes. Right. So as the night goes on, 928, this is sort of in between those messages to Alex as well, as before the Nephi one.

Right. And do we see here that Melanie says, I can lay at my house if I need somewhere to go. And then she goes on to say, I think I'll tell him I don't want to get the kids sick, so I'll go lay down at Mimi's. Then Jim Temple and lunch. Yes.

So she's going to pretend to be sick, but she's going to go to the gym, temple, and lunch. Correct. Then she continues to sort of advise what, going on on the 10th and tell Lori is it better for me to stay here or leave do you think so she's getting her direction from Lori correct and then from Melanie she advises Lori Adam and Charles don't come until tomorrow right or she asked her and then she said Brandon said it's okay we can get in a flight tomorrow or whenever you're you're better yes so on the 10th

asked if Charles and Adam are coming in, right? Yes. And Lori tells them they both come tonight. Correct? Yes. So she already knows that Adam is coming and that Charles is coming. Yes. Does it go on?

Okay. This is from Melanie. So today doesn't really matter, but I'm here. I have the kids tomorrow and that could make it easier for them. So I should probably be sick again tomorrow, question mark? Correct. And again, does Lori say, I think so, but I think they're moving their plans to tomorrow since they will still try to get rid of you. Yes.

Then there's a discussion from Melanie about wanting to go to this wedding. Correct. And Lori's saying, I know, baby, I'm so sorry, this is important to your mission, even though I know it's hard to just sit there. Correct. So she's given her a mission to pretend to be sick. She has a missing yes. Then we see from Melanie, I just got to the gym, but do you want to do lunch after?

What's your day look like? Are you going to Glendale? Correct. So we can see a plan going here where she's pretending to be sick for Lori, but they're meeting up. Yes. Lori says, yes, let's do lunch. I'm not going today. Then they discuss sort of meeting up. And as we go on in the 10th is Melanie advising her that Brandon's been here the whole time.

He's been on the phone and texting the whole time. I told them I'm trying to get on a flight tomorrow, but he thought the wedding was tomorrow. So he was surprised it's Friday. Correct. And Lori tells her maybe she can go tomorrow night. So on the 11th, Lori Valo already knows by the night of the 10th, Lori Ballot was already knowing but by the night of the 10th. Lori Valot was already knowing but by the night of the 11th, Mel need not stick around. Correct.

So as we just heard from all of these texts between all of these different people, one thing is certain that people and Lori's inner circle knew that Charles and Adam were in town and they were planning a intervention. Lori states more than once that whatever is about to occur will change everything going forward. And in the early morning hours on July 11, 2019, Lori began communicating with Chad, starting at 606 a.m. Chad, Bubby, Bubby, Chad. Lori also called Chad after the shooting occurred at around 12.39 p.m., which would have been after she was interviewed by police. They had another 11-minute phone call at 2.28 p.m., which was around the time Detective Inclin

asked Lori to come back to the house again, and at 5.42 p.m., they had another 30-minute call. And at 7 p.m., they had an 11-minute call. Their final call of the day was at 7.54 p.m., and that lasted for around 13 minutes. Duncan stated that in the text messages, it was obvious that Lori and Chad had a romantic relationship, you think? However, prior to Charles being killed, there was never any open or obvious romantic relationships saved in Lori's phone. And it wasn't until after Charles died that Chad and Lori began to speak more freely in their text messages. And next, Duncan testified that Chad emailed Lori a romantic story that he wrote about, the two of them as a couple, and when they met. Ah, the Loin fire story. As we know it here, it hidden true crime. And in the story,

though, Chad changed their names from Chad and Lori to James and Elena. But the timeline in the story matched up precisely to when Chad and Lori met at a preparing a people conference in October of 2019. And it matched up chronologically to everything happening in their life and contained all of the real life timeline, but with an addition to steamy, sexual moments as well. And while again, this. story in court is known as the James and Elena story, or better known at Hidden True Crime, as the Loewan Fire story. I think a better suited title for this trial is Bubby and the poisonous Dartfront. And beyond the steamy loaning fire moments in this love novel,

additional texts included conversations between people like Adam, Brandon, and Ned. Sabrina then displayed some texts between Chad and Lori. Take a listen. And again, going through the 17th, 16th, 17th, again, more affirmations of love, correct? Yes. Now we know on the 15th of July is when Lori Vallow had called Banner Life Insurance to indicate that she was the beneficiary, right?

Correct. And on the 18th is when she learned that she was not. Correct. So in exhibit 229, do we see on July 18th at 1218 Arizona time? So I talked to the insurance company. He changed it in March. So it was probably Ned before we got rid of him. They can't tell me who to tell me to whom of course, but it's done. I'll still get the $4,000 a month from Social Security. Yes. So on July 18th, after she talks with Banner Life Insurance, Lori tells Chad, she's not getting the life insurance.

Correct. But she tells him she's getting $4,000 a month from Social Security. Correct. Now, we know from Lori Vallow's text to Alex that she went to Social Security on August 12th, correct? Yes. And we also had testimony. from Social Security about that. Correct.

But here it is on July 18th of 2018, and she already knows she's going to get money from Social Security. Correct. Okay. I hope that everyone caught that last bit, where Lori said, quote, so I talked to the insurance company. He changed it in March. So it was probably Ned before we got rid of him, end quote.

before we got rid of him. I hope the jury caught that as well. Because Trina surprisingly, this was a bit of a frustration to me, she surprisingly didn't dwell on that comment for very long, not long enough, even though it definitely says a lot. I'd almost call it a confession. I mean, not quite. I realize it's not a confession.

But it is damning before we got rid of him, referring to Net. Next, we see some more messages between Lori and Chad discussing additional details about the life insurance. Let's listen to those because you can really see in these how upset Lori was to learn that she was no longer the beneficiary. Take a listen. We learned that Lori received a email indicating she was not the beneficiary, and later she had a phone conversation. Does this one appear to be sort of the earlier one because it references I just got the letter from the insurance company saying that I'm not the beneficiary It's a spear through my heart. Who do you think he changed it to? Brandon or probably K he left nothing for JJ

Correct Did that conversation go on? Wow, that's terrible. There's no way to find out It did and did Lori then tell Chad I might be a able to see when I get his computer on Sunday, I could check the email sent to the insurance company. It will show change of beneficiary. He must have done it recently. We had seen, in fact, photos what appeared to be from a computer that were sent to Chad Daybell, correct? Correct. Showing that beneficiary change. Yes. So does that seem to match with again what Lori is telling Chad here about finding out who got that money? It does.

Does Chad then say it seems you would have to agree to change. Maybe the name was forged. You should have a good paper trail to prove it, right? Correct. So he's trying to help her figure out how to get that money. See then go on to say, I love you, this is terrible. It's probably another step in bringing down, what is this? Gatti Anton.

Did you ever learn what that was? I'm sure I researched it, but off the top of my head, I don't know what it is. Okay. Did Laurie then tell him, Nope, he can change it any time he wants. He's the agent and anyone can change the beneficiary any time with their own signature. I'm thinking it must be K.

Correct. So she understood at least to Chad, that Charles had that right. Yes. Does Chad then say, hmm, it will be interesting if it got changed after he had two bullets in his chest. Correct. And she goes on to respond, I don't think it could have. You can't change it after the death date.

They would review that. Correct. And then she goes on to say again, I'm thinking K as well, or he says, I'm thinking K as well. She's probably freaking out that you got those computers. I'm going to shower and give you a blessing. I'm eager to get home so we can talk. It will be okay, my love. You are wonderful.

Correct. And then she says, miss you so much. Any response, miss you the most? Yes. For those wondering, and thank you, unnamed true crime, Gandy Anton refers to the leader of a secret combination of robbers and assassins in the book of Mormon. And I was actually surprised that Detective Duncan did not say who the Gandy Anten robbers were. In both the Chad trial as well as Lori Vallow's first trial,

he actually explained LDS terms explaining that he grew up LDS, although he no longer is. But let's jump to what was the most disturbing to hear in those text messages, how crass it was, how Chad Daybell spoke about Charles receiving two bullets in the chest, all because they were no longer getting that $1 million. It was so despicable to hear that. It also personally frustrates me. I'm going to be honest that Chad hasn't been charged with this crime, which brings up the last portion of direct questioning where Duncan discusses finding photos from Lori and Chad's wedding in Hawaii and when Lori officially becomes Lori DeBow.

Next, it was time for Lori to cross-examine Detective Duncan. But before we jump in, because we all grab your popcorn, we all like to see Lori Cross examine the witness. But I just want to give a big thank you to our trial sponsored dream, sleep drink. Here it is. It's my gluten-free, vegan, keto-friendly, sugar-free, low-calorie way to wind down at night, very healthy after a big court day. Can you see that? Fall asleep and then wake up, refreshed and energized for trial. And I am so grateful for them. you can head to the link in the description of this video or episode for 35% off your first order. Plus, you get a free frother with your first order.

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Contact store for availability. And with that, back to Lori's cross-exam. Whenever it's time for Lori to cross-examine a witness, heads perk up in the courtroom. Afternoon sleepiness be damned. We are ready to watch Lori. So Lori started today's cross with Detective of Detective Nathan Duncan by clarifying when Duncan became a case agent to which he responded June of 2020 after he took over for Detective Moffitt. Well, after becoming the case agent, he continued to look at iCloud records, call details, records, phone extraction records, and also reexamined what Detective Moffat had previously investigated. And then Lori transitioned to questions about the day of the shooting.

take a listen. So let's go over that day again real quick when you were there. What time were you there at the scene from when to when? I believe I arrived shortly after 915 and I would have left probably 430. Okay. Were you at the house that whole time? Yes. So you did I did leave for a short period of time to obtain a saw that we would need to cut that piece of floor. out and the base board. Okay. But then it came back, yes. So you were at the scene that whole time, besides the time you went to get the saw?

Correct. You didn't come, you didn't go to the Chandler Police Department? No. So you weren't there during our interviews? No. Okay. So, and you had mentioned something about you, you couldn't go in. I was confused.

You couldn't go in until after the search warrant, but you were in before that, right? No. So obviously your first responders, your police officers, the firefighters, they're going into preserve life and treat the particular victim in this case. Then they back out. At that point, we will not let anybody in given the circumstances of this case

until a search warrant is actually signed and executed. So we will wait outside the threshold of the house until that search warrant is signed and then we will begin our investigation. So I'm still confused. So you didn't go into the house until after the search warrant or you did get to go in beforehand?

No, I didn't go on before. I waited until after the search form. Okay, so you had testified, I'm still confused, sorry. And I'm gonna object again to the defendant testifying. Just ask the question. You had also indicated that you had gone in and that Charles was on the floor, is that correct?

I think the question was asked of me is, what did I see when I went in? And so that, and I would say after the search warrant, we went in, that's what I saw. But he was already gone in the ambulance at that point? He never went in an ambulance. Charles didn't go in the ambulance? No, he went with the medical examiner's office.

So what time did he leave? I can't give you a specific time on that. I have a look at the medical examiner's office information. But it was after you entered at 1150? Yes, it was way after that. Okay. So then when you entered, what did you do at that point? Can you kind of walk me through that?

Yes, so when I entered, obviously, I made my general observation about what I saw in that room and of the body. And then talked with Detective Coons about what needed to be done next. And what did you guys do next? So we came up with a game plan as far as how to process the scene, which direction, who was going to do what. Like I indicated, I was tasked with collecting that firearm and was also tasked was kind of looking through the house

for any kind of blood evidence that might be present. The other tasks that I had when we were ready, I contacted the medical examiner's office to report the death to them. What time of that was that call, do you think? I do not know. But sometime in between that before 430. Is that correct? Correct. Can we now just talk about that whole what time did he leave line? What time did he leave?

Let's be clear. Charles never left. Charles' body was removed and taken by the medical examiner after he was killed after he was shot to death. To suggest what time did Charles leave is just so off. It's just such a strange phrase. What time did he leave? Like Charles was able to walk out of the house after being shot in the heart. I hope the jury caught that. It was upsetting to hear.

Next, Lori jumped into the walkthrough of the house with the detective. Duncan stated that he believed Werther had a body cam on for that walkthrough, but it malfunctioned. So there's not a recording of that walkthrough of the house, and what they have is just written in narrative reports. After a series of objections by Trina on questions about the reports and who wrote what, Lori shifted her questioning to DNA and fingerprints. Detective Duncan confirmed that while there were latent prints, none of them were able to be identified. He also confirmed that the bat was not tested for DNA. Take a listen to Lori trying to drive her points home emphasis, though, on the word trying. But there was no blood found on the bat.

Is that correct? Correct. But would that be able to be told from DNA? There was nothing that was visible that could see, like if blood dries or anything like that. There was nothing that would indicate that here's a spot we need to test for that particular for blood. Right, but would DNA tell if there was blood? Could they find out if there was blood on the bat from the DNA test? Once again, blood is, you would see if it dries and crusts, then you would see that particular blood.

DNA comes in many forms. It can come in touch, it can come in sweat, blood, but you would think that blood would be visible at that point to be able to test. And we did not see anything like that. Okay, so if there was none of Alex's DNA on the blood, wouldn't that tell us something? I mean, on the bat at all, wouldn't that tell us something? If there were none of Alex's, it would just mean that Alex never touched that pad at any time. And wouldn't it tell us that Alex was never hit in the head with that bat? Once again, it's not specific.

I can't, if there was blood on the bat, then yes, we would test for that. but there's no visible blood on the I understand that, but when you're doing an investigation, are you not trying to figure out what happened? Yes, and that's what we do. Don't you want all the information to do that? Yes. And so whose responsibility would it be

to request the DNA testing from the swab that was taken? Once again, that would just show, it's not showing that it's blood, there's no blood on the bat. It was just showing that a DNA swab was taken of that particular area to be able to test later on, but there's no discoloration that would show any kind of blood. And who in the Chandler Police Department would be requesting that DNA to be tested?

Who would have to do that? That would be me. As the new case agent, that would be me or Detective Moffitt at the beginning. And so Detective Moffitt never did that, is that correct? Correct. And you never did that, is that correct? Correct.

Okay. So if Charles Deacon, DNA was on the bat, then would not tell us something also. Did he touch the bat at some point? Yeah, that he took it from Tiley, like she said in her interview. And I'm going to check and move to strike that. The jury should disregard that last question. That information is not in evidence.

Detective, wouldn't that have answered some questions for us in your investigation? I don't think it would have no. Lori then questioned Detective Duncan about the gun and why it wasn't tested early on. Plus, Lori had questions about other testing of the evidence and her cooperation during the investigation. Take a listen. The gun in testimony that the gun was tested just last month. Is that correct? Correct.

And who requested that test? I did. And why did you request that test? So on firearms immediately after we have a firearm case, we have the ability to utilize a system called Nibben. Nibin is run through the ATF, and what Nibn will do is we can fire a particular firearm that we have control over and obtain casings from those. We could then take the casings from the scene casings and then compare those together. We were, we already knew that that gun fired those casings very early in the investigation as a 9-in report provided.

However, ATF will not testify in court. So playing the balancing game of when a trial will begin and whether a trial will even happen, I do not like to make more work for a firearm analyst than I have to. So when we know that we are in and going to trial, then I will send that over to them because they were the ones that will testify to that. Okay. So it wasn't after my investigator suggested

that none of the guns had been tested? No. That you ordered that test? I never spoke to your investigator about that either. Okay. So, Detective, when did the Chandler Police Department take possession of the gun? On July 11th.

And then it was tested in March, is that correct? Correct. And then we've established through expert testimony of Detective Coons that the floor board was not tested either. Is that correct? Correct. And he also established that the projectile was not tested either. Is that correct? Correct.

And Detective Coons also confirmed that no tests were done on my husband's shirt. Is that correct? Correct. And then when you became the case agent on this case, Why didn't you request any of these tests? Because I was confident that based on the medical examiner's report of an entry wound to the lower left quadrant, an exit wound to the upper left rear shoulder, and a corresponding defect, or what I would refer to as a bullet strike in the floor, if you take those three points and match them up, then there's no other explanation other than Charles was laying on the ground at that time.

So the medical examiner said he could not say that he was laying on the ground for sure, but you're saying that in your detective opinion, you would know that for sure? I believe so, yes. And so were you there to witness it with their eyes? No. Detective, to your knowledge, did my brother and my daughter and myself willingly comply with everything asked of us by law enforcement on July 11, 2019? I can't speak to that.

Did we answer all the questions asked to us? I have nothing to say you didn't. Did we follow all directions given to us by law enforcement that day? I'm going to object to speculation and foundation as to how this detective knows that. He's already said he wasn't at the station. He's the case agent, Your Honor. He can testify to what he observed himself, so if you want to tailor your question, go ahead.

Would you say that according to every report and every detective, that you've talked to and anything else that you would say that we fully complied with law enforcement that day on July 11th, 2019? Jack to hearsay. I'm gonna sustain the objection to the form that it was asked. So according to all the reports that have been given

by everyone who is there, and you're the case agent, so you're in charge of all of these people, is that correct? I'm not in charge of them, but I have read the reports. So you have read the reports. And as far as you know, to your knowledge, we fully cooperated with law enforcement that day on July 11th, 2019. And again, object to hearsay.

And lack of personal knowledge. Sustained. Has it come to your knowledge that we did not comply with everything? No, to object to the exact same thing. Lack of personal knowledge and hearsay. He can answer that question. Can you answer it?

Can you ask that again? Have you come to the knowledge that we did not comply that day for any reason? I have not. Okay. Are you, did I turn my husband's phone over when asked? Yes. Did Alex turn his phone over willingly?

I am not sure when Alex, or if Alex turned his home, I'm not aware of that. Okay. So there's, is there a body cam where his phone was placed into an evidence bag? That's correct. I do remember seeing that, yes. And then the evidence bag is put into the front of the police car where he was taken to the Chandler Police Department.

Is that correct? I didn't see that, but I trust the fact that it was taken at that time, yes. And so according to that body cam, it looked like he turned it over on request. And I'm going to object to speculation. You don't have any knowledge that he didn't. Is that correct? I'll allow that last question. I don't have knowledge known. So do you know who that who had taken possession of his phone at that point?

I don't. Do you know who drove him to the Chandler Police Department? Well, through this hearing, Detective, or sorry, Officer Krauthan. Oh, that's right. The one I couldn't remember how to spell. I mean. Sustain, please don't testify. Was a copy of Alex's phone made by the Chandler Police Department?

I don't know. You don't know? There's so much information. I don't know. And I don't know whether it was, if we received his justice, it's called detail records or an actual copy was made. I,

I don't know. Shortly after this, we took an afternoon break. And I don't think anyone, at least anyone that I know, expected what would come after the break. I sure didn't. And for those of you to listen to my lunch live,

you know that I didn't expect what came next. So after the break, Lori approaches to finish cross-examining Detective Duncan, and she asks Duncan if he ever interviewed her parents, Janice, and Barry Cox, or her sister, Summer, or if he read or watched any of their interviews with police, to which Duncan responded that he had not. Then Lori questioned him in a very Lori questioning sort of a way where it's more testimony than question.

That's what she does. And she asks Duncan if the only source that Duncan has for Alex is their brother Adam. Duncan explains that he has Adam and all of the contacts mentioned through eye clouds that he has and and Lori then went and jumped into some intense questions about Duncan's sources. Take a listen to this and then we'll get to what happened next. So the only source that you have for this investigation of the shooter in your case is through our brother Adam. Is that correct? And all of the contacts mentioned through your eye clouds. Yeah, but you didn't ask anybody who was mentioned in there or who was speaking in there what they meant by any of those text messages?

Well, neither, none of the people that you mentioned were present during this incident. So you're asking about the actual day of July 11th, if I asked them about that day or about the text messages? About the text messages themselves. Like, did you ask my mother what she meant in that text message when she wrote it? No. Did you ask my sister what she meant in those text messages? No. Did you ask Melanie, my niece, what she meant in those text messages? No. Did you ask me what I meant in those text messages?

I couldn't. Okay. And through your investigation, you found out that, as you testified earlier, that Alex wouldn't text or call Adam back. Is that correct? I'm not interpreting as far as he wouldn't do it. What I'm saying is I don't see it. So if there's a message there and there's a text, there's no indication that there

was a callback or a text back. So it looked like that he wasn't calling him or texting him back, even though he was getting calls and texts, is that correct? And then Adam also testified that that he did not receive a call or a text back, which would be consistent with the records. So the only person in our family, in our whole family that you got information from was the estranged brother from our family who didn't know it was going on with everybody else. Do you have checked to the form of the question, argumentative?

Well, it's also compound. I'll sustain the objection. Okay, so Adam, our estranged brother, is the only one that you got information from, is that correct? Can I reject to the form of the question? Sustained. So is this your normal protocol to just talk to one witness

and not all the others? No. Why didn't you speak to any other member of my family? A lot of members of the family has been spoken to. But you were not privy to any of that information as a case agent? Well, I was privy to the interviews

that were conducted by other detectives. And you just testified to me that you didn't read or watch any of those interviews. Is that correct? I have been present during an interview or a phone call with Summer and been present during a phone call in this process, but I have never interviewed them.

How many interviews has Summer had with the police departments? objection speculation if you know he can answer if he know i don't know more than one or two i don't know okay but you knew you knew of at least one that summer's had correct yes but you didn't ask her any of these questions or any of the questions about the text messages that you just talked about that were on the screen with summer i said no okay very interesting you know by the way uh lorry's family are on the defense witness list. She wants to interview them. And she seems very upset, but nobody's asked them to clarify what they meant in text messages. Moving on, Lori then asks Duncan what he has researched about the

ancient Book of Mormon prophet Nephi. Duncan responds that he's done simple Google searches on the subject, but he has also asked members of the LDS Church over the years to tell him about Nephi. And again, I want to remind you that he actually did grow up LDS, although he is not anymore. But now he is saying that he has asked LDS members over the years to ask to tell him about Nephi, and they all say the same story over and over again, the same story that was told by Adam Cox, who is also LDS, and that is that Nephi killed another man in the name of righteousness. It's the first book in the book of Mormon. It's a very well-known story in the book of Mormon. In fact, It is better, the scriptures is better that one man perish than a nation dwindle in unbelief.

It's clearly that story that is being referred to in text between Lori and her inner circle. And then just like we would expect, though, Lori goes on her religious crusade. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the Internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in.

ORA actively removes your data from broker sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service.

Start your free trial today at ORA.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. So are you aware that there's 15 books in the Book of Mormon? I don't know. Are you aware that four of those books are books of Neuf? I'm not. That there's Nephi one, first Nephi, second Nephi, third, Nephi, fourth Nephi?

No, I'm not. Okay. That there's many stories of Nephi. Is that correct? Or do you don't know? I don't know. So the very first story is the story that I'm going to object to testifying. It sounds like that's the way it was going.

So please just ask questions. So you do not read the Book of Mormon? No. You did not read first Nephi? No. You just ask people. That was your research? I asked members of that particular church,

and I also did an internet search, yes. So you did an internet search, and it gave you all the stories of Nephi? That's the story that came up. So how long did you do that research for? I couldn't tell you. So in your research, did you discover that about 25 stories of Nephi in that Book of Mormon?

I didn't see that no. And that there's four different prophets that are called Nephi in the Book of Mormon? I'm gonna object as to testifying and the detective has already indicated. So asked and answered. I'll overrule the objection. He can ask if he knows that or not.

What was the question? Sorry, I'm sorry, I can't remember. Can the court reporter. There's four different people referred to as Nephi. Yeah, four different prophets. the book of Mormon there, Nephi? Are you aware of that? No. Okay. So isn't it true that you really have no idea what I was referring to when I referenced Nephi in my text message?

I can only go off of what I see. I can't tell you what you're thinking or what you're trying to relay there. But based on my knowledge and based on talking to people about who is Nephi, that is a story that came up consistently. You relayed to the jury that it was in order to kill. You relayed to the jury. I said that this the story was the same story and similar to Adam told. Okay, and you said it earlier that that was an order to kill that I referenced Nephi. I will be like Nephi and you will be like Nephi to the jury here today.

Ask a question. That's a statement, not a question. Do you have knowledge that that may, that my text message meant that at all? No. Are you aware through all of your investigation of this case that my brother was a stand-up comedian, Alex? I had heard that, yes. And that everything is a joke to Alex? I can't speak for that. So when you're interpreting all these text messages and making all these assumptions,

half of them could be jokes and you would not know that? objection speculation sustained were you speculating when you read my text messages i think i'm just reading your text messages i don't think i was drawing any inference from them i was just simply reading them before we continue i want to address claire's question and many people's questions in chat lauren this is important claire says please don't rush out over this

there are four separate nephys in the book of mormon well i can I do know this. So let's go over Charles Vallow's probable cause the charge. This is the charging documents when they charged Lorry with conspiring to kill Charles Vallow. On 712, 2019, that is the day after Charles Vallow is killed. there is an exchange of text messages between Lori's close friends. And one of them from Zulama is Iplos is gone. That's the evil spirit that came after Ned, but we'll just refer to Ned.

Eplos slash Ned is gone. It was a Nephi and Laban empty. I will tell you more when I see you in person or when you see Lori in person. I'm leaving for Chile on Monday for two weeks. well that nephi is the one who kills laban a nephi and laban ending makes it very clear what neophy these inner circle friends were discussing when it came to charles vallow dying additionally the other nephys just simply don't make sense those that are lDS know what it means when they say this is a Nephi. I will be like Nephi in the book of Mormon, or let's make it more clear by saying

it's a Nephi and Laban ending. So it's very clear which Nephi, Lori, referenced, and it is so manipulative, if you think about it, as she represents herself to suggest it wasn't that Nephi. But she's Jesus's favorite, so I guess she's okay to lie and manipulate in the name of God, just like Nephi was allowed to kill in the name of God. Lori, Asa and Lori was killed in the name of God, allegedly. But it's just gross. Okay. Anyway, moving on.

Lori asks if Duncan thought it was important to luminal test the bat. He said there was no visual blood on the bat, so they did not do that. Put luminal on there to see if there was any, you know, blood evidence or trace evidence because they didn't see any visual blood on the bat. And Lori was like, well, couldn't there be invisible blood that luminal was show? And Duncan was like, well, I guess if it's cleaned off, it could show some proteins and explain that while they decided not to do that testing, they did test for fingerprints. Lori asked about luminal on the gun. And Duncan pretty much had the same answer.

But Lori wasn't having it. Take a listen. Once again, there's no visible. and there was we were under the impression that it happened five minutes before we got there and there's no visible presence of blood on the bat. Well, you went around the whole entire house looking for blood. Is that correct? Yes. And you had the gun in your possession. Yes.

And you're in a police station. I was at your house. I'm saying you have access as the case agent to have any of these things tested. Is that not right? Yes. So why didn't you test them? Because I did not think that Luminon. would would would was needed to be tested because there was no visual blood so wouldn't you like to know that for sure I guess you're making we make choices and we make decisions through these this process

based on the facts that we have and the facts that are presented to us and based on the facts presented to us and what we saw and what we had I did not feel that was that was necessary you have charged me with a crime is that correct I have not you have helped them charge me with the crime is that correct the state of Arizona I conducted an investigation and I sent it forward and you did not feel it was necessary to test any of these things as the case agent answered like four times sustained what logical reason do you have as an investigator to not investigate all of these things that were available to you for the past five years yeah i'm again going to object asked an answer there's a specific thing that's a that's a really very broad question i'll sustain the objection

that's all i have your honor redirects detective i'm going to start by just talking to you a little bit about luminal. Is luminal a process used where you believe a scene has been cleaned up, like somebody actually attempted to remove blood from the scene, and so it's been diluted? Correct, and it would show the remaining proteins left, yes. And so luminal is used when there is no visible blood because the scene's cleaned.

Correct. And so in this case, you were under the impression that this homicide had occurred five minutes before police arrived? Yes. So you would not be expecting a cleaned up scene. Correct. But you did look to see if you saw visible blood. We did, yes.

And by visible blood, you're talking about drops of blood that might be there? Correct. Swipes of blood that might be there? Correct. Hairs from someone's head that might be stuck in the bat. Yes. Well, Duncan confirmed, obviously, that when law enforcement arrived, on scene on July 11th, 2019, they were under the impression, again, that everything had happened

five minutes prior to the 911 call. So they didn't naturally assume that someone may have attempted to clean up the scene before calling 911. They just simply looked for visible blood. And it wasn't until the next day that they started realizing that the timeline wasn't what they thought exactly. And Trina really drove home a lot of good points in this cross that we just listened to. You know, it is kind of funny that Lori's cross really implies that they cleaned up the blood. You know, you didn't test the bat for blood that might have been cleaned up. You didn't test the gun for blood that we might have cleaned up. It's just such a bizarre, backwards thing to push in her cross.

It's sort of implying they knew what they were doing. Well, after Trina concluded redirect, there was one juror question. And the juror asked what the timestamp was on the top left corner of the photograph Alex sent to Lori after the shooting. And after looking at the photo again, Duncan said it was 2.13 p.m. And with that, here we go. I keep bringing it up at the most unexpected event. event of the day happened. The state rested. The prosecution is done despite having two more witnesses

on their witness list that could have been called and the expectation that we would be concluding Thursday, which is tomorrow or even Monday. The prosecution, well, they called it a rap. That's a wrap. And after the jury then was excused and they walked out, the judge asked Lori if she planned on presenting evidence to which she's asked if she could confer with her counsel. Well, after meeting with her counsel on the side and everybody waiting, Lori did try one last ditch effort to get the case thrown out. I guess Lori, like Minnie, realizes you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. And once again, the judge tossed it out.

And it is worth a listen. Your Honor, I'd like to address a Rule 20 motion first. Go ahead. Okay. The state has failed to show substantial evidence for count one, conspiracy to commit first degree meditated murder. The state has provided no evidence that I agreed with another person that any one of us would engage in certain conduct that I intended to promote or assist in this premeditated murder.

Crime premeditated murder requires the state to establish a person cause the death of another with premeditation. The lack of evidence to show any evidence of a conspiracy to commit murder, there was no plan to murder Charles. No evidence has showed that, in fact, evidence suggested self-defense on the part of Alex. So I would like to put that on the record. All right. State want to put a response on the record? Yes, Your Honor. Looking at the evidence in the light most favorable to the state, there's sufficient evidence based upon everything from the I-Cloud messages,

from between Alex, the defendant, and others leading up to July 11th of 2019, but Alex Cox was invited over by this defendant knowing that they were going to be having the intervention and knowing when Charles would be there and bringing a handgun over with him. The timelines on July 11th of the killing of Charles Valo and the fact that the number of shots and the physical evidence at the scene, the statements by the defendant to Detective N-Klan that she took Charles Vallis' phone and would not get it back to him. the motive for money and especially the defendant's motive for having an affair with Chad Daybell. All of those looking at together in the light-bust paper is called to the state.

The defendant or the jury could find the defendant guilty of conspiracy to commit first-degree murder. Last word. Do you want to add anything? No, Your Honor. All right. The standard is whether or not a reasonable juror could whether or not there's substantial evidence for a reasonable juror to find the defendant guilty, The court does find that there is substantial evidence that a reasonable juror could find the defendant guilty. The court will further add that the jurors are the ones who judge the credibility of the witnesses. And it's sort of denying the rule 20 motion. The judge asked Lori once again if she was going to present evidence to which she responded,

no, your honor, the defense would rest. Whoa. She answered the question we've all had. Would she testify? Would she bring witnesses? No, the judge, hoping to do closing arguments Thursday then, stated to let's set the schedule, started to set tomorrow's schedule. But at Trina K's response and Lori agreeing, they've pushed closing arguments to Monday, the day after Easter Sunday. And then for a twist, after Lori rested, well, now it's an unrest or a bit of a take-eat.

backy rest because it's Lori did not officially arrest in front of the jury, Lori suddenly realized she now actually has until Monday to decide if she would like to officially rest or if she would like to put on a defense and call her own witnesses. Thus, I guess she is keeping her options open. So it's now a not, not rest. It became a rest. It's not rest and not rest. We don't know what it is. She'll be praying about it all week and I'm sure. And we'll get the full scoop on Monday. and I will be there. Tomorrow, there will be court at 1045 a.m. to finalize jury instruction, and there will be a live stream, although the jury will not be present. And then I will be flying home this weekend to be with family and celebrate Easter.

And I hope all of you have a wonderful Easter weekend. While Lori sits in her cell and debates to rest or not to rest, it'll be determined on Monday. I'll be back in Phoenix for court on Monday. So stick with me. And also, if you haven't subscribed to our audio podcast, hidden true crime on Spotify or Apple or wherever you listen to podcasts, please do. We also have Apple subscriptions available now. And thank you for hitting like and subscribe here. And then a tip, if you want some weekend reading, because we have a long weekend now that trial has concluded early on Wednesday,

if you want some weekend reading and you are curious about seeing the thousands of, of pages of evidence from Chandler, Arizona, as well as Gilbert, Arizona from police that Hidden True Crime has received through the Freedom of Information Act in this case, and Brandon Boudreau's case. Like, we have it all. And you can read all of the text

messages that we've seen today. Well, you can head to patreon.com slash hidden chew crime to read all of our FOIA docs. Go to our FOIA doc collection, or you can go to the pinned post and click there, start there. It'll take you through all of them.

And also on patreon.com slash hidden true crime. There is a bonus episode with my co-host, criminal psychologist, Dr. John Matthias, and his analysis on the trial thus far and his thought on Lori Ballow, DeBal, from a criminal psychologist perspective. And it's worth a listen. Biased, yes, but it is worth a listen.

Thank you, everyone for being here. Thank you for your support. I see that we have over 10,000 people with us right now. That's amazing. That's incredible. Thank you for sticking with me throughout this trial. As I always say, may justice be served. Good night.

Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls. and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in. ORA actively removes your data from broker's sites and keeps it off.

They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring, or just a VPN. Again, Aura gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove.