Hidden True Crime - Unmasking A Surgeon Turned Killer Ex-Husband - Michael McKee | Spencer and Monique Tepe

Episode Date: January 13, 2026

After the arrest of Michael McKee, Dr. John is here to discuss the case of Spencer and Monique Tepe. How did they end up dead nearly 9 years after Monique and Michael's divorce? What are the driving factors in cases like these? Sponsors:  Daily Look: For 50% off your order, head to https://DailyLook.com and use code HIDDEN Jones Road Beauty: Use code HIDDEN a https://jonesroadbeauty.com to get a Free Cool Gloss with your first purchase! #JonesRoadBeauty #ad About Hidden True Crime What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Lately, I've been trying to be more intentional about what I wear, intentional about everything, just choosing pieces that feel effortless, still put together, timeless, but also not overthinking it every morning. It's why I keep going back to quince. Their pieces just make getting dressed easier and I feel so classy. I feel elevated. The fits are flattering. The fabric is really high quality. Everything is wearable day to day. I actually got this really, really, beautiful yellow V-neck midi dress from them, and I paired it with some Italian leather sandals. It's one of those outfits that just works. It feels polished but still comfortable. It's exactly what I've been looking for. What surprises me, though, is the quality for the price.

Quince uses premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, q-u-in-c-com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your

information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in. ORA actively removes your data from broker's sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitor. and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring or just a VPN.

Ora gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. Dr. John is with us today to process this heartbreaking case. I mean, was this an X holding a grud? for nearly a decade? I have questions. But first, we need to talk about where the Tepe case stands. The charges have been upgraded to aggravated murder, and the man charged appeared in court. So we're going to go over the latest in the case, and then my husband and co-host criminal psychologist, Dr. John Matthias, is going to join me to break this case down.

But before we even get into what happened in court on Monday, it's important to go back to the morning, when everything fell apart. According to the criminal complaint, police believe Spencer Monique were killed between 3 and 4 a.m. in the morning on December 30th, 2025. And long before anyone realized anything was wrong, Spencer was supposed to be at work that morning, but he never showed up. So at 9.03 a.m., the first call came in from his boss asking for a wellness check.

Well, at 922 a.m., an officer accidentally went to the wrong house, and then no one answered. That officer unfortunately went to the wrong location initially. As it related to that wellness check, it was not the right house. He spent about 10 minutes doing what he thought was appropriate. Had it been the right house, knocking on the door, going around to the backyard, doing all the things that you would do in an effort to try to reach out to the family or to anyone that may have been in that home. At 9.57, A.M. a worried friend who decided to go over himself,

called again and said that they could hear children inside. at 10.05 a.m., that same person called again and said they could see what appeared to be a body near the bed. 911. What's location of your emergency? We've got several calls on that. What's changed since the last person I talked to? There's a body. There's a body. There's a body inside? Yeah. Okay, hold on one second. When police finally entered the correct home, they found Spencer and Monique shot to death. their one-year-old son and four-year-old daughter were still inside the house alive. Police later released surveillance video showing a person walking near the home around the time of the murders. People stared at that footage trying to make sense of it.

Officials wouldn't confirm who it was, but court documents later revealed that detectives actually tracked this person's vehicle that arrived shortly before the killings and left shortly after, according to police. On Saturday, Monique's ex-husband, Michael McKee, was arrested in the case. the Chicago area. And he's currently being held in Rockford, Illinois, and is waiting to be transported back to Ohio. So as we now know, Michael McKee is a vascular surgeon. He holds an active medical license in Illinois and California and was previously actually licensed in Nevada as well. He graduated from Ohio State, the same school Spencer and Monique attended. The hospital

he worked for quickly removed his professional profile. That was gone really fast. And just hours before he even walked into court, his charges were quietly upgraded. They were originally two counts of murder, but are now two counts of premeditated, aggravated murder. That change means a lot, actually. In Ohio, murder carries a possible sentence of 15 years to life. Aggravated murder means prosecutors are alleging prior calculation and design. In other words, they believe that this was planned. And, you know, committing, two murders in another state in the middle of the night was likely planned, but police are saying they have proof. This was planned. In other words, the prosecutors can prove this,

right? That charge opens the door to life without parole and the death penalty. It actually also tells us that investigators believe this was not impulsive. Michael appeared in court on Monday in a jailed jumpsuit with his hands and feet chained. He stood straight, barely spoke, and only said his name. His public defender told the court that he plans to plead not guilty and that he is waiving extradition so he can be transported back to Ohio as quickly as possible. His attorney told the judge that Michael believed the most expeditious way to defend himself was to waive his right to an extradition hearing and agreed to immediate transportation.

And the judge replied, understood. Thank you. So let's take a look at the hearing. Your name is for the record. Michael McKee, have you had a chance to speak with it. Yes, Your Honor. What's your position in this time? Yes.

At this time, Your Honor, on behalf of Mr. McKee, I will assert his right to counsel. I will assert his right to remain silent. And Mr. McKee believes that the most expeditious manner in which he may depend himself against the charges pending, in Ohio and to plead not guilty would be to waive his right to an extradition parents and to have a governor's warrant and to agree to his immediate transportation to Ohio. Understood. Thank you. We will set this matter that for 2 o'clock on Monday,

for status on the transfer. Thank you. There were no speeches. There were no emotions or obvious emotions, anyone could see. There were no family members sitting there. behind him. Surely after the arrest, the Tepe family, though, released a statement that was both simple and devastating. They said nothing can undo the devastating loss of two lives taken far too soon. We thank the community for the continued support, prayers, and compassion shown throughout this tragedy. As a case proceeds, we trust the justice system to hold the person responsible, fully accountable. And then they later added, Monique and Spencer remain at the center of our hearts and we carry forward their love

as we surround and protect the two children they leave behind." Spencer's brother-in-law, Rob Messula, also spoke publicly and said the family quickly believed Michael was responsible. So when he was on social media saying they believe this was targeted, it turns out that the family quickly believed that it was Michael. He described Michael as emotionally abusive during his marriage to Monique and called the arrest an important step toward justice. people who truly knew Spencer and Monique, they say they had absolutely zero doubt that Michael did this.

They described Spencer as smart, caring, and the glue that held everyone together. They describe Monique as beautiful, kind, and gentle. They also say that after their split, that Monique would never even use Michael's name. She just referred to him as her ex and was reportedly open about him being bad. They also talk about something else that mattered deeply to them. The damage done by online speculation, the accusations, the doxying, the way strangers became convinced that they knew exactly who had done this while Rob Mesla pushed himself to exhaustion, trying to protect his family's privacy while fighting for justice. And then more Facebook posts began to surface. One man who grew up with Michael wrote that he was a family member and that his heart stopped when he read the news.

He described Michael as kind, gifted, and said this felt completely out of character. Let's just quote this post really quickly. They said, would like to ask for prayers. Michael is actually a family member. My heart stopped when I read this. When we were growing up, I was always amazed by his kindness and how gifted he was in sports and academics. This is totally out of character for him. All parties definitely need our prayers.

Such a sad situation, it makes me sad to think of what kind of headspace he was in. and if he did this. My heart goes out to him. It is definitely a dark world out there right now, and one of us could be victim to the dark side. So please stick close to God, and a few people you can trust keep moving towards the light. God will not fail us, end quote. Well, someone replied with a comment that changed how many people saw the original post. They wrote that Michael had threatened Monique while they were married. They had put a pillow over her face while she slept and told her if she ever left him, he would kill her. They also alleged that Monique told friends if anything ever happened to her police needed to look at her ex.

She ended the comment with, so pray for the victims and families. And suddenly, this didn't feel like something this murder or murderers, I should say, that came out of nowhere. court records from their 2017 divorce between Michael and Monique now feel different too. The filings included a mutual temporary restraining order meant to prevent harassment or harm. Michael was awarded their Virginia home. No spousal support was ordered and on paper it looks routine. Now, honestly, it feels like something else entirely. Investigators have not released an official motive. but when you place the legal filings, the family statements, and the online accounts side by side, a very specific picture begins to form.

And, you know, it's confusing to me too because Monique left. And Monique, she rebuilt her life. And then Monique found love with Spencer. She did everything right from an outsider looking in. From what I can see, she created a new family. She stayed very private. You can never find any social media after the murders. And now she and Spencer are dead.

They're gone. And their two children are now orphans growing up with an absence that can never really be explained away. Physically unharmed, but emotionally scarred forever with such a loss. And Michael will soon be transported to Ohio where he will be arraigned, held without bail, and where evidence, I'm sure we'll know a lot more soon, it will begin to surface through all of these hearings, motions, and eventually a trial. Phone records, GPS data, surveillance footage, communications, forensic reports, this case finally has some direction, and this story is finally moving toward justice. The new year always makes me want to refresh everything, my workout habits, my eating, sleeping habits, especially my wardrobe. But between the hustle and bustle of juggling mom life and working, I simply do not have time to always go shopping, although I love clothes. And that is why I love Daily Look. This podcast is sponsored by Daily Look, the number one highest rated premium personal styling service for women. And with Daily Look, you get a real personal stylist, not an algorithm, like a real personal stylist. You curates a box of clothes just for you based on your body shape, your preferences, and your lifestyle.

And you get the same stylist every time so they get to learn, which makes a huge difference. You can try on up to 12 premium pieces at home. And then you keep what you love and send the rest back with free shipping both ways. I have worn daily look outfits, both to meetings and while recording this podcast, even recording this ad. My stylist absolutely nailed it. I love it. Daily look works with brands like Kate Spade, AG, Good American, and more. And they carry sizes from extra small to 3x and 0 to 24. It's time to get your own personal stylist with Daily Look. Head to Dailylook.com to take your style quiz and use code hidden for 50% off your first order.

Once again, that's Dailylook.com for 50% off and make sure you use my promo code hidden. So they know that I sent you one last time, Dailylook.com and promo code hidden. I am here now with Dr. John Matthias. He has years of experience working with domestic violent offenders and victim. And I have questions, a lot of questions. And I think, honestly, the biggest thing going around right now, that it's not just me, but many people, they're asking, could this man, this ex-husband, Michael, truly have been holding a grudge for this many years? The divorce finalized in 2017. could have really been could he have been harboring this resentment for this long after Monique chose to divorce him?

And I think that's maybe where I want to start, but maybe you don't want to start there. You tell us. This case is just terrific. Yeah, the short answer is yes. The short answer is yes. That it's not as uncommon as you would believe. there's actually something called separation instigated homicide.

And so I think the reason this is confusing to some people is because the period of greatest risk after a separation or a restraining order or a divorce is typically three months. So in most cases of interpersonal violence where there's homicide, where there's interpersonal violence homicide, oftentimes it'll occur in that window. And so I think the expectation is that there's a reasonable window where the risk is increased, and then over time that risk starts going down.

But that's not true of all cases of domestic violence homicides. There's certainly a proportion of those cases where stalking, occurs way outside of that window, there's a proportion of those cases where harassment and prolonged bullying to some degree occurs. And so cyberbullying, I think in this case, it's interesting that both Spencer and Monique had no social media presence. That we could find, at least after the point. Right.

And I mean, and a few, it appears that a few people close to them have discussed that. That it appears that they scrubbed social media, right? I mean, there's clearly a reason they did that. Right. And so I think that's a good clue. I mean, it's not definitive. but the fact is that there are domestic violence offenders who are incapable of letting go for whatever reasons.

And in fact, I think the place I want to start with this discussion, if you really want to understand this case, or most every domestic violence case, the place you need to start is at birth. And one of the things I always say, about, I often say about crime is that almost every crime is a failed love story. Yeah. And that's true here.

The failed love story begins at birth with attachment. But more specifically, if you look at human beings in general, human beings experience a very long, helpless infancy, and then human beings experience an even longer period of dependency in childhood. And so the key, this is the key to almost every domestic violence case in every domestic violence case I've ever worked on, is this issue around dependency. Okay.

In the sense that when you think about it, every human being is dependent upon a caregiver or an adult of some sort for their survival. Right, yes. Right, to be fed, sheltered. If you don't feed a child. Human beings, human beings are absolutely helpless at birth, more so than the average animal.

Yeah. And that sets the stage for everything else, right? So there's degrees of dependency. I mean, I think in theory, the goal of a healthy family and a healthy upbringing is to help your child become independent. so they can function on their own, but that doesn't happen often. And even if you, even if you're lucky enough to raise an independent child,

those issues of dependency never leave. Those issues follow us throughout life. It's always something we negotiate. So this this dialectic between independence and autonomy and dependency or belonging is something every human being has to negotiate. We negotiate it in terms of our interaction. with our families. We do it with our communities, right? We do it with our colleagues at work. We do it with everyone. Yeah. And so in many ways, domestic violence is a really cataclysmic or can be in homicide cases,

a cataclysmic failure around dependency, or more specifically, around becoming more independent, becoming an autonomous, high-functioning or reasonably high-functioning an adult. That does not happen in cases of domestic violence. You know, it's ironic because when you think about it, dependency involves a great deal of helplessness. It involves a sense of weakness. You're right, because you're dependent on other people for survival, you're necessarily helpless. And oftentimes, I think one of the elements of that dependency is that sometimes as kids grow older and they still feel helpless, they also attach a sense of weakness to that.

They feel somehow that they're weak and helpless and inadequate and they can't care for themselves. And that's especially true in family cultures that promote more of this sense of early on, maybe too early, the sense of autonomy and strength and, you know, just be strong, right? I mean, this would be, typically this would be more true of little boys. You know, boys would cry, for example. Like the classic example, be strong. Right, be strong.

Be strong. Shut up, don't cry, be strong, don't be weak, you know, be a boy, be a man, right? And so this is all part of that story that if you, if you raise, a child and a boy in particular, I think, to be strong and to negate any sense of weakness or vulnerability or sadness or, right, these more difficult emotions, loneliness, and the child can't express them, then oftentimes that can evolve into a sense of shame. The child feels some shame because they recognize that a big part of themselves is cut off from expressing those emotions. A big part of themselves is not going to be authentic because they're not going to have access to a full range

of emotions. Yeah. And in family cultures in particular, you know, in very authoritarian families, for example, where there's a real focus on strength and independence and, you know, no expression of vulnerability or weakness, the child will often overcompensate. for those feelings of dependency by trying to become stronger, by trying to become, right,

this is how you develop a bully. You take a kid with a sense of dependency, a sense of helplessness, right, a sense of vulnerability, and you essentially expunge all that. You try to wring all of that out of that child, and then now you have a child that still has those feelings, they just can't express them or feel them.

And so the reaction to that is to go to the opposite extreme and to pretend like they're strong all the time, that they're in control, that they're invulnerable, right? And so this is how it's this sense of shame and this inability to cope with these feelings of dependency and neediness and helplessness, right? We all have those. it's the negation of that that I think eventually over time eventually leads to potentially domestic violence and again there's there's a wide range you know of ways of dealing with dependency you know and that's not to say that a child can't find a mentor at school or can't find friends where where that's more acceptable and more right and more the child is allowed to express that more openly.

Yeah. But in a lot of the groups that I held with domestic violence offenders, there was this over-emphasis upon being strong, being in control, not showing any weakness, not expressing sadness, not right? And the reason that was true is because they didn't want, any feelings they had of dependency or vulnerability made them feel ashamed of themselves. It made them feel inadequate. It made them feel inferior.

Shame is fundamentally an emotion about the shame is an emotion around the idea of feeling flawed, of feeling like there's something wrong with you. And you're going to feel that if you're not able to feel some sense of dependency or the issues around dependency or vulnerability because let's go back to what we just talked about a minute ago you're going to feel that because every human being has dependency issues throughout life you can't get rid of it you can try to deny it you can try to pretend it's not there but you will not get rid of it you will have to deal with that issue because our very survival in those first years of lives depended upon,

we were completely dependent upon other people for our survival, and that will stay with us forever. And so this is a setup, this is a setup for future problems. I mean, problems don't always equate to murder, though. No, you know, problems, like, okay, problems, bullies. Anger. Stalking.

Okay, but murder of two people. Yeah, keep going. Yeah, so let's go forward. Let's take this idea a step further. So what happens when, so, you know, you get older and you still have these dependency issues, but you negate them. You, right, you deny that they exist and you go in the opposite direction. And then you get in, then you start falling in love.

or you start getting in romantic relationships, right? Inevitably, all those feelings are going to come up because in a romantic relationship or any relationship to some degree, but especially in a romantic relationship, you don't have total control. If you want to have a reciprocal relationship with another human being, you will necessarily have some sense of dependency on them. Right.

you will have dependency on their validation of you. You will be dependent upon their feedback, their perceptions of you. You can't control those things. You can try. And so that's a big part of domestic. The reason why power and control are such important elements of domestic violence is because domestic violence offenders,

they hate the fact that someone can judge them. and that someone can have their own opinions and perceptions of them. They want to control all of that. Yeah. And they want to control that. That makes sense. The vulnerability it takes to have a romantic relationship. Right.

On busy mornings, I don't want to think about makeup. I just want something fast that makes me feel put together. I don't want heavy coverage or complicated routines. I want my skin to look like. like my skin, just a little more awake and radiant. And that's why I am obsessed with Jones Road beauty, especially their miracle balm. I use it almost every day. It enhances my skin instead of masking it, giving me that your skin, but better glow in under a minute. It's a one-stop shop that is simple and not complicated. It works as a blush, a highlighter, even a little liptint, and it replaces

multiple steps in my routine. It's perfect for busy mornings, travel days, or when I just want to look pulled together without trying too hard. And the best part, Jones Road's products are actually good for your skin. High performing formulas packed with skin loving ingredients that nourish instead of clogger cake. If you want makeup that brings out your natural glow instead of hiding it, Jones Road is the way to go. And for a limited time, our listeners get a free cool gloss on their first purchase when you use code hidden at checkout. Just head to jonesroadbeautcom and use code hidden. And after you purchase, please, tell them our show Hidden True Crime sent you. You know, one of the ways I think about love is love is in many ways

being completely exposed to someone else. Yeah. It is being completely, I mean, and I'm talking about. It absolutely is. Yeah. Right. It's being, it's trust, right? It's being vulnerable.

It's opening yourself up to someone in a way that you necessarily are going to be vulnerable and exposed, you know, metaphorically naked in a way, right? Because that person, if you really want a reciprocal relationship, you're allowing that person, you're giving that person the power to reject you or hurt you or judge you, right? And so, but that's what love requires. And so love, by definition, at least authentic love or healthy love, is staying open, not only within yourself, not only having an awareness of your own vulnerabilities and your dependencies,

but it's staying open to their perceptions and their judgments and their views of you. And it's that dance, right? It's that constant dance that we have with someone else that is intimacy. If you don't have that dance, then you're negotiating something that's not, intimacy. And so how does this apply here? How does this apply to Michael McKee? Well, imagine, so again, I don't, I don't know about, I'm just, this is, this is a theoretical discussion, right, based on my experience, but because I don't know his background. I do know one thing

that we've confirmed is that he was adopted at a very early age or maybe at birth. I'm not, I haven't confirmed the age. Very early age. Yeah, his birthdays in June. and the adoption was announced in a newspaper in August. So either very early, yeah, age. So that's interesting, right? I mean, I wouldn't make a lot of inferences from that, but it's something to work with. I mean, so even though he wouldn't know it at two or three months old,

if that's when he's adopted, he's beginning his life in a sense with rejection by his biological family and hopefully acceptance by the family that's adopting him, right? But we don't know. But kids may or may not know that they're adopted. I mean, a lot of adoptive families will tell them later, but I think a lot of children, and I don't know how many siblings he had, I don't know if there were biological siblings in the home,

all of that would make a difference in this analysis. But I think a lot of many, not all, but, But some adoptive kids, they recognize that they're different than their parents. Yeah. They feel different. They sense that they're different. Their genes are different. Their genes are different.

They look different. They act different. And sometimes, not all the time, but I'm just speculating, right? People are asking this question, how could this guy do this? Right. How could you get to murder? you know one thing people talk about here a lot or one thing that that seems somewhat counterintuitive is that he's he's a surgeon he's a vascular surgeon apparently

yeah that's what i wanted to bring up to you like okay like here here are the questions that are hard for people to to just sort of come together he you know he had so much going for him as you point out he's a vascular surgeon this is a man who went to medical school who clearly a lot of money on his schooling, who worked hard to academically excel, who became a doctor. Yes, the irony of saving people's lives, but also just somebody that worked really hard to get to where he is and to throw it all away. So let's. Like even if he had that rage, right?

even if you had that rage for seven, eight years, ten years. Really? But let's get, let's get to the bottom line here, right? Like, it doesn't matter. First of all, let me say this. Domestic violence crosses class boundaries, racial boundaries, right? Gender. Like, I mean, it's mostly, it's mostly,

most men are men males are much more likely to murder their intimate partners than females but other than that you know it crosses many many of those lines in terms of it's not confined to one particular group

or one particular socioeconomic group or one particular class of people or one particular race right it's it's it's diverse. Yeah. It crosses all cultures, right? And let's go back to our discussion, our initial discussion in terms of explaining why.

Because if you're a vascular surgeon and you're wild, let's say you're wildly successful and you live in a mansion or whatever, like you have it all, right? Guess what? You still have dependency issues. because as a human being who's completely dependent on other human beings for your survival as a child, you have dependency issues. It doesn't matter if you're a vascular surgeon. Is it true that he would have had access to more resources to deal with those issues,

to deal with it? Like, could he have gone to therapy and purchased, like, an excellent therapist for a lot of money? Probably, right? Like, you certainly have. has access to more resources to solve that problem if he knows he's having a problem, but that's part of the issue. I don't think he knows he's having a problem. One of the things you find in murderers is there's, I talk about this all the time, there's something called mentalization. Mentalization is essentially the capacity to step back

and reflect on your situation, your decisions, your life, whatever, right? murderers lack that capacity, which makes them much more impulsive. Okay. And lacking that capacity means that he's less likely to seek out therapy. He's less likely to perceive it as a problem. And he's more likely to be stuck in these issues of dependency that I've just been talking about. He's more likely to be stuck in this sense of shame that he probably has. In fact, I would actually argue that by being a vascular surgeon,

may have something like imposter syndrome, which is he feels this tremendous sense of shame and inadequacy over who he is for whatever reasons. I don't, again, I don't know his childhood that well, but it's not hard to imagine that in his childhood, that somehow he felt flawed or inadequate for whatever reasons. And that doesn't just disappear. Right. So if, let's go back to the trajectory that I was kind of trying to. to develop. If you think about he's getting in a romantic, let's say that his first serious romantic

relationship was with Monique. I don't know if this. I don't know if this is true. I'm just developing a possible scenario here, right? Because people are asking this question. I'm trying to explain a possible answer. We can fill in the pieces. As we learn more, we'll start putting this puzzle together with more detail. Right now we don't have a lot of detail, but just in general, I can paint a picture here that I think would help point us in the right direction. And so one of those elements is going to be, let's say he's falling in love, right? And all these dependency issues are feelings, these feelings of vulnerability are bubbling up to the surface. He's tried to repress these for years.

So here they are. He, she apparently falls in love with him too, I guess. I mean, I don't know their love story or their relationship or what happened. but there's some reciprocity. For three years, I assume, I'm going to just speculate it was off and on, but three years, they knew each other before getting married. Right, they get married. And so it's interesting that in a lot of domestic violence cases, once there's a major

commitment, like an engagement or marriage in particular, that's when violent men in these relationships tend to go all in with their control, with their coercive control, right? That's when they really, that's when they really try, that's when they really start tightening the screws because they, that commitment gives them the sense that now they're all in, now that they're secure, they can take control. And so what happens in those situations oftentimes is that dependency starts ramping up. that what happens is a lot of times these men feel like there's no distinction but since since since many of these men already as I mentioned earlier they already don't feel authentic because they've

already excluded a lot of emotions and a lot of experiences and a lot of perceptions of the world because they're not allowed to feel certain things they're not allowed to think certain things right, their view of the world is already really distorted. But now you bring in this person that's their everything, this person that they feel like they love. Now what happens is this distinction between self and the other, the distinction between, say, Michael McKee and Monique to him, not to her, but to him, it starts to blur.

Yeah. He starts to become a mesh. There's no difference between himself and her. He begins to see her. as an extension of him, which oftentimes is very true of narcissists. There's no, there's no separate sense of self. There's no separate sense of self. She's like a limb.

She's just like another limb, part of him. Right. And you can trace that back. You can trace that back to the dependency issues that I, as I say, we all have them. We all negotiate dependency issues every day. We may think we don't, but we do. And so imagine, so the scenario I've created is that this is a guy, he gets in this relationship, she becomes, you know, he becomes controlling.

He, and I don't know, like, this could be financially, it could be physically. There could have been, I don't know if there was any physical abuse. There's, there's rumors of him. Rumors, it's from a friend responding to someone that claimed he was a family, member of him on social media. family member of Michael and somebody that knew Monique responded. So this is all social media hearsay. But according to this person responding to Michael's family member who requested prayers because he was such a great guy growing up, kind, athletic, academically gifted. Those were his describers of Michael, descriptive words of Michael. This person responded and stated he was emotionally abusive to Monique.

that he put a pillow over her head while she slept and threatened that he would kill her if she ever left him. And there was a joint restraining order after the marriage was done. Nothing too extreme, like, you know, no real documents of what or how it was just sort of, nothing noted in the divorce documents that were too extreme or anything like that. it looked pretty regular. So again, that's social media hearsay, but that is how somebody responded, and then said that who we should be praying for

is not both parties, but for the victim and the victim's families. They were pretty upset by that social media post, rightfully so. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in.

ORA actively removes your data from broker sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring, or just a VPN.

ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at aura.com slash remove. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records

and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in. ORA actively removes your data from broker sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection,

dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. So, right, so if that's true, then, I mean, not only do you have violence, you have, I I mean, and I don't know, but if that's true, but I mean, if let's say that's true or a version of it's true, then not only do you have violence, but you have attempted murder. And threats, severe threats and threats of her life also, if she leaves.

We also know that she allegedly left with her family's help while he wasn't home. So sort of secretively, as you've pointed out, lack of social media presence. and the family of the TEPPs have stated that they felt right away that it was Michael, who was responsible for their deaths. All definitely signs, you know, you tell us what that all means, but there you go. Well, so if you, if you, I'm going to go back to this idea of how many, in many domestic violence cases, again, this, the fundamental idea here, the fundamental premise here, is that we all have dependency issues, we can't escape those. And so when you get in a situation, like he did, when you get married to someone like

Monique, who's probably a million times more emotionally intelligent than he is, he doesn't know how to reciprocate. He doesn't know how to love back. He doesn't know how to be vulnerable, right? All of those things. And so the, the, instead of, trying to learn how to do that. What a lot of times, what abusers do is they, they escalate. They become more controlling because they don't know how to do the thing they need to do, right? They try to get the person to be some version of their ideal spouse or person, and they try to isolate them so they don't leave.

Because, again, the other part of this, getting back to that analogy about us being completely dependent for our survivals is rejection. is one of the worst conceivable outcomes for an abuser because it goes back to those very primitive existential issues around survival. Rejection. As a matter of fact, the two biggest motivations for domestic violence are number one, jealousy, and number two, fear of abandonment. Jealousy and fear of abandonment. And again, both of those are based on dependency.

So I'll talk about jealousy here in a minute. But jealousy, this is important. Jealousy is closely aligned with shame in the sense that shame is often a comparative emotion. So in other words, shame is, we feel ashamed because in many ways we don't feel like we measure up. Right? We can, part of shame is comparing, comparing ourselves to other people, right?

And so is jealousy. Jealousy is, is, jealousy is largely based on the idea that we're going to lose something we possess to someone else. Okay. Yeah. And so, jealousy is based on comparison too. It's based on social comparison.

And so if you take that idea, by the way, if you just, if you take the idea that he that he probably has some shame and that he probably has a lot of jealousy and, and you see, he begins to see or he's, he starts, I don't know, you know, I mean, stalkers figure out a way to know what you're doing. Even if they don't have social media accounts, he can easily get on, he can, he can, he can friend her friends. He can friend his friends. He can write, there's, there's ways for him to try to figure out what's going on with her. That's what stalkers do. I mean, most of that's done for the internet these days. The old-school idea of stalkers running around with a gun chasing you is not going to apply here because he doesn't live close to her. So he's probably trying to figure out through various social media platforms, what she's doing.

And he's seen how happy she is. He's seen the pictures of her smiling and with her family. And right, right, this speaks to that. issue of social comparison. I don't think it's any, I don't think it's any mistake, by the way, that the murders occur literally a few days after their marriage. So they, it's their anniversary. Their anniversary was December of 2020. It's five years later. They have, they would have celebrated an anniversary. It's the holidays. So you have that factor in that, you know, that the holidays to many people are depressing, especially if he's alone.

Or better yet, here's a scenario. Think of this scenario. And again, I don't know. This is, I'm just speculating here because I don't know his life, right? But here's a possible scenario. Maybe he was in a relationship. And that relationship failed. And that the woman broke up with him.

His significant other broke up with him a few days. before Christmas. Yeah. And he's alone. And he's feeling, imagine all the shame and rejection he would be experiencing if that was true. And then he gets online and he finds a way to figure out what Monique and Spencer are doing. And he sees pictures of them somehow. And it just sets him off.

It's a trigger. Because think about all the things going on there. He's being rejected. he's he's has a history now of you know potentially multiple failed relationships it's to holidays he's alone he's seen this this

life that Monique has created and how happy she is right and again I'm not saying this is what happened it could just as easily be that he's alone and nobody wants to date him because they they see him as this hot controlling hothead. Yeah. Or maybe word got out that he, I don't know, that he was violent.

Who knows, right? But he's alone during Christmas. He knows that Spencer and Monique have had this fifth year anniversary. And he's angry. You know, one of the things, one of the things that happens sometimes in, in relationships like this where someone's married and they get divorced and then the other, you know, Monique moves on is that the exes sometimes feel like something has been stolen from them. They feel like there's a sense of entitlement.

They feel like whatever that, whatever's been stolen for them, they own that. They're entitled to that. And then so entitlement is a big part of this story too. I want to read, there's a, there's a couple of researchers, Margot Wilson and Holly Johnson that have done, they did a lot of research in the 90s, their pioneers on this, but they talk about this issue of jealousy and possessiveness quite a bit in their research, but one of the terms they use, which really never caught on, but they use the term proprietaryness that a lot of domestic violence, males in particular, feel like the relationships they have with their spouses

or ex-spouses are proprietary, that they should be exclusive, that they somehow possess those people. I'm just going to read, this is from a study from 1995 where Wilson and Johnson looked at over 8,000 women in, there was from the period, from the period 1974 to 1992, so it's a huge sample. It's from the Canada Homicide Survey during that time. Okay. 1,429 of those victims were, the term, by the way, it's a peculiar term, but the term for for women that are murdered by their spouses or ex-spouses, it's called exoricide.

U-X-O-R-I-C-I-D-E. People very rarely use that term. Male victims of domestic violence, by the way, which is much less common, that's called metricide. Femicide refers to, so a lot of people that, in general, when they talk about domestic violence, they'll say it's femicide, but femicide, that's not quite right. Femicide refers to a gender-based murder. So although it's a little confusing, but although most victims of domestic violence are female, and there's a gender-based component,

that doesn't necessarily mean it's femicide. But sometimes femicide and exoricide are interchangeable. Anyway, they looked at the, they looked at this sample, and I'm just going to read their conclusions or some of their findings here. This is on page 333 from the study they did called lethal and non-lethal violence against wives. So this was all violence directed against females. Jealous and possessive are the terms most often used to describe the mindset of men who have beaten or killed wives. Wilson and Daly, the authors here, Wilson and Daly have preferred to use the term proprietary,

as this word implies a more encompassing mindset, referring not just to the emotional force of one's desire for exclusivity, but also to feelings of entitlement. So it's important to recognize that entitlement is a big part of this equation. They go on. They're talking about in their sample, in their large sample, they say in their sample, They say in their sample of exoricide cases, which I just defined. So now we know what that is. Yeah.

In their exoricide cases, quote, a large majority were evidently precipitated by husbands accusing the wife of sexual infidelity. And then in parentheses, whether with reasonable grounds for suspicion or not. So the main findings were that the large majority engaged. And these were homicide cases. Okay. The large majority of homicide cases, domestic violence, homicide cases involve the husband accusing the wife of sexual infidelity by her unilateral decision to terminate the relationship, right?

So rejection and leaving. That's number two. And number three, and or by a more generalized inability to control her. The main motivational circumstances in non-lethal wife assault are apparently. very similar adultery, jealousy, desertion, and mal-control. So those are the main variables and elements of, not surprisingly, of both domestic homicide and domestic violence, more broadly speaking. Interesting.

Control. Control. And to the ability to not control the. these entities that they believe are part of them now, that they should be able to control, rejection, jealousy, shame. Right. And so, and there's another issue too, by the way, which is status,

that oftentimes, when a partner leaves, there's a loss of status, or there's, there's what I would sometimes refer to as, a collapse of identity or a fragmentation of identity, right? A big part of this has to do with if someone is so fused with their partner and they don't have their own independent sense of self, and they need their partner for status.

And let's say in this, let's say, let's say Monique, for example, was very social. She seems to have been very social, right? oftentimes people like McKee or abusers, whatever, abuser, because they're not particularly good in social situations, they rely on their partners for that. And so when they leave, that all falls apart. Yeah. They're no longer as social.

They're losing status. They're losing social status. And so that's losing power. Losing power, losing control. So I, that psychologist will sometimes call that identity. fragmentation or disintegration or fracture, right? It's all the same thing. The identity, one's identity is kind of literally falling apart

without the other person to lean on and rely upon. Let's be honest. Buying cannabis shouldn't be complicated, sketchy or low quality. That's why I want to tell you about mood.com. That's M-O-O-D.com. Mood ships federally legal cannabis straight to your door. No medical card, no hassle.

And here's the kicker. The quality is better than anything you'll find at your local dispensary. Yeah, I said it. Whether you're into edibles, concentrates, flour, or just looking to explore, you'll find it all at mood. And it's not just the variety that makes them stand out. Every product is sourced from small American-owned family farms that care deeply about what they grow. It's cannabis you can trust, delivered discreetly, and ready to elevate your mood. And because you're a listener, you get 20% off your first order.

Just head to mood.com. That's M-O-O-O-D.com to get started. And so one of the problems, so one of the obvious problems is that also is this inability to really cope with rejection in a healthy way. Yeah. The inability to cope with shame in a healthy way. In fact, I would say that oftentimes for abusers, they have a, only a vague notion that they're ashamed. They have only a vague notion. They know they're being rejected, but they don't understand the emotions that go along with that. They don't

understand all the dependency issues that go hand in hand with that. So what happens when one's identity begins to fragment and you, the abuser, so I'm talking about, now I'm talking about situations where that three-month window is long past. Right now we're talking about eight years. If you build into that equation, not just the rejection and the loss of status and identity and the shame, if you build into that equation an obsessive quality. So you and I know from covering so many crimes that there's so often we see an obsessive quality, right? You have someone who who experiences this divorce, he can't get over it.

He's lost this sense of self, right? He's got this shame. He's got this sense of rejection. He can't cope with his dependency. And I don't mean just Michael McKee. I mean, a lot of abusers. What happens is, especially with an obsessive quality, is you get this rumination.

You get this obsession about not only how this person has ruined your life, but how you want to, you want some sense of justice or revenge, right? And so you have this grievance. You have this grievance that you revisit over and over, right? Because you become obsessive about it, it's that grievance and that inability to really cope in a healthy way with any type of rejection.

rejection. And the jealousy, if you throw in the jealousy of Monique getting remarried and seemingly becoming much happier, and you played in one of our earlier shows and her wedding vows, she basically alluded to this guy. Yes, she did. And also, there's a, there's a really, there's a quote, by the way, from a source close to the family that has not gone public with their identity, but I believe it's probably valid. If it's not valid, it's completely relevant to the situation and it is essentially what the person said the marriage was short quote the marriage was short the harassment wasn't right that's all you need to know valid that's valid yeah the marriage was short exactly like the harassment here never ended the from the moment he threatened to kill her or

supposedly tried to put a pillow over her head and threatened to kill her to the moment she divorced he continued in one way or another, I'm sure, to harass her, to stalk her, to cyberstalk her. It's probably just been an endless stream, an endless drumbeat of malice and harassment and bullying. And she's had to deal with that. Now, I don't know if that's exact. I don't know the details of that. But somebody close to the family is certainly alluding to there's harassment of some sort here. Right.

So the relationship, it doesn't matter. how short the relationship was if all of those factors come into play jealousy, shame, control, rejection, that doesn't necessarily mean that the harassment will ever stop or the resentment. Right, exactly. It went on for years. In fact, I'm going to read, here's another, this is another research article that I think is great on this issue. It's by one of the co-authors of the previous article, by the way, Holly Johnson. This is a later article, 2004,

Holly Johnson and Tina Houghton. This is from a journal called Homicide Studies. It's from 2003. They looked at the Canada's homicide survey statistics again between 1991 and 2000. Their sample was over a thousand victims of domestic homicide. And so the title of the study is

losing control, homicide risk in estranged and intact intimate relationships. Here's how they talk about the role of stalking as a precursor to homicide. So stalking is another risk factor. Jealousy, abandonment, and stalking are all in possessiveness. But possessiveness often gets tied in

with jealousy, as I read before. So this is from their analysis of this sample, page 60, quote, recent studies in Canada, the United States and the United Kingdom have found a strong association being stalked between stalking and intimate partner violence, thomicide and attempted femicide. So again, femicide is female homicide essentially, but with a gendered component. They go on. this is the most interesting part, quote, this is on page 61, quote,

of those women who reported being stalked by a former partner, 21% said that the stocking occurred before the relationship had ended. 36% said it occurred both before and after, and here's the most striking statistic. And in the remaining 43%, stalking occurred only after the relationship had ended. stalking behavior by current or ex-marital partners continued for 2.2 years on average. Wow. That means...

On average, 2.2 years. That means that in relationships of this nature, 79% of the victims. So, if we round up, 80% of the victims of eventual... Homicide, 80% were stocked primarily after the relationship ended for an average of 2.2 years. Many of those, obviously, that's an average. Many of those stalking behaviors are going to occur for many, many years after that. So one of the morals of the story here is that somebody like Michael McKee or domestic violence perpetrators that lose relationships, they're not giving up. they're going to continue.

They're going to stock for as long as they have to. And again, I think the primary reason for that is because of that emmeshment, that sense of fusion, they feel. They feel like the person ruined their life because their identity was so wrapped up in that other person and that they're entitled, right?

They're entitled to that person. And then when they can't get that person back after stalking, then it just becomes, worse, then they become obsessive and they can't let go and it becomes a cycle. And unfortunately, in many of these cases, that cycle doesn't end until something horrendous happens because murder, murder for them becomes that one last chance for them to feel powerful again. It's that one last chance to even the score.

And it's that important to them. That one last act is that. that important to them. And they're, wow. And I'm just going to read another. This is just right, this is right below what I just read. This is from another study by McFarland, 1999, and they say, quote, and their sample of women in the 11 city study who had been killed or survived a homicide attempt, so all victims of homicide is the very least an attempt had been killed or survived a homicide attempt by their intimate partners. 70%, 76% of famicide victims and 85% of attempted

femicide victims experienced at least one incident of stalking within one year of the violent incident. So in other words, a vast majority, vast, vast majority of women in abusive and domestic violence relations, relationships have stalkers. And many of those stalkers persist for years. This is such a sad case. Oh, yeah.

They were such a beautiful, loving couple and new parents. Yeah, I mean, they had a, I know, they had a one-year-old and a four-year-old. And for the children, I mean, yeah, I mean, clearly this was someone who, I mean, And thankfully, he let the children live, I guess. But, I mean, that doesn't, these are children that are now orphans. Yeah. But still, I mean, you know, it's not unusual in these cases for perpetrators like McKee because they're so enraged at their exes to murder the whole family.

So sadly, it doesn't. change the outcome. Can I share a couple things? Sure. I'm grateful that you brought up how domestic violence knows no bounds, no social status, no, it is universal. No profession is immune. Yeah. No matter what someone looks like. they're not immune. It happens. And so I would just like to say something to a lot of people too that think like how could a smart, beautiful woman like Monique or others like her find themselves in a situation like this and be abused, you know, or like, you know, why don't they just choose somebody that is kinder or how does she even get herself into this situation? And nobody's necessarily

saying that online, but I'm saying it because it's something I see in these types of cases a lot, you know, or just in general, why doesn't she leave? I mean, in Monique left, she did everything right. She did everything right. And it still ended this way. She left, you know, with her family's help. She had family. She had support. She had safety. She moved on. She took her privacy seriously. Everything. And it still happened to her. And I just want to point out that like these relationships don't happen because somebody acts mean all the time. They put on a wonderful mask. This person on social media that claims to be a family member of Michael said he was gifted, he was kind, he was all of these things, you know, and yet now he's at this time charged with two counts

of aggravated murder, you know, that they are kind, that they put on a good show that no one ends up with them because they're an idiot or they're stupid or they, they, you know, have low self-esteem or they pick the wrong person. They end up like that because these people wear masks and they pretend to be someone they're not. And I'm sure that there was a time when he felt very safe with him, despite him now being behind bars charged in her murder. And the other thing I want to point out because I was actually recently talking to an old. old friend of mine, actually, someone I've known for years and years. And she was relaying to me a story I had never heard before where an ex of hers that she had gone back to several times has now

been charged with murdering his now ex. So not her, but someone he was with after her. And she's had a few abusive relationships. And she was saying to me, I know, right? Like, I sure know how to pick them, don't I, Lauren? Like, I clearly, something's wrong with me. And I looked at her. I said, no, they choose you. You are beautiful. You are kind. You are caring. You are warm. They choose you. And I think so oftentimes, again, that's another. way to victim blame. And I want victims of abuse to know that there's nothing wrong with them. There's everything right with them. Everything is right with them. And that is why they are abused. And we need to switch that narrative too. I just want to see. I want to point out in terms of my work

in this arena. And there was a period, by the way, where I was involved in a major national demonstration project in domestic violence. And one of the issues that was talked about quite a bit, so I had to do these trainings up in Duluth, Minnesota, with Ellen, her name's Alan Pence. She was one of the real pioneers in domestic violence, and she lived in Duluth. And I remember going up to trainings in like January

when it was like 35 below. Beautiful city, by the way. but she would always talk about how the history of the domestic violence movement and it always revolved around blaming the victim for many, many years in terms of saying, well, you know, the victim doesn't have enough self-esteem. The narrative was always that it wasn't the abuser. It wasn't the abuser's problem. It was the fact that the victim had no self-esteem, and that's how they ended up in these

relationships. And that would just make her so angry. Makes me angry, too. Yeah. And she would always say, you know, the victim doesn't deserve to die, right? Like, it's not the victim's fault that they saw certain elements or qualities in somebody else that was putting on a mask, as you said. That there's a huge difference between a public and a private persona.

Yes. and a lot of abusers understand that if you want to lure in your prey and catch your prey, you're not going to do it by being cruel to them. Right. Exactly. People don't fall in love because somebody's cruel. One of the fundamental tenets of the domestic violence movement is, has been, and always will be, to shift the narrative from away from the victim and towards the place,

to shift accountability away from the victim and to the point. place it belongs, which is the perpetrator. And to say, the perpetrator chooses to engage in violence, the perpetrator does engage in violence, that's where the responsibility lies. Doesn't matter what the victim's self-esteem is. Right. Right. And it's the same thing you're talking about, that there's no blame here on Monique in any way.

Exactly. Right. She just wanted to live her life. She just wanted to raise her family. She didn't ask for some crazed stalker to follow her relentlessly to the ends of the earth until he had to murder her because he felt like there was no other way for him to cope with his shame. His shame is not her problem. It's his problem. Yeah. And I want to say too, by the way, that so, I think, so if you're thinking about, if people are asking this question, how did this happen? I mean, I hope we've answered that to some degree. But if you're looking for triggers, so I suggested one possible trigger, which was that perhaps he was lonely over Christmas,

perhaps he was enraged by the fact that he saw pictures of Spencer and Unique celebrating their fifth wedding anniversary and how happy they were with these two beautiful children, right? Perhaps it's all of those. perhaps he was in a breakup a few days before Christmas or over the holidays or maybe Thanksgiving. I don't know. Maybe he was in a breakup where he felt like he would never find true love, that he was inadequate, that he couldn't negotiate a healthy relationship. Maybe it was all of that.

But, you know, it could have been something else. It could have been. So Freud and Winnicott, Freud first used to say that the two primary, the two primary facets of human life revolve around work and love. Those are the two main areas where human beings, those are the two main motivational areas that drive human beings, work and love. But Winnicott, D.W. Winnicott, he added in another element,

he said that it's actually not work and love, it's work, love, and play. But let's consider, so if there's a trigger here, I think it's one of two things. It's either love in terms of the things I just mentioned, or it could be work. It could be work in the sense that maybe he was getting demoted at work. Maybe there was some change in status that affect his identity, right? Anything that would have impacted his identity to lead to some type of fragmentation. to identity fragmentation or disintegration, right? Any of that could have been a trigger.

So it could have been something at work. Maybe he got in trouble for something. I don't know, right? But to me, if you want to figure out the why, in addition to all the things I just mentioned, if you want to figure out what set this in motion, what set in motion, of course, goes back to the very beginnings of Michael McKee's life. But if you want to look for what's set of emotion now five years later, I think it's probably related to either work or love. So I imagine it would be something to do with work where he was, he lost some status.

He felt some failure. He felt some rejection or and or a relationship failure or rejection probably was one of those two things. We know that he was struggling getting board certified. Okay. All right. Yeah. He was not a poor certified doctor and he wanted to be. So it wasn't working out for him.

Yeah. So there you go. So I don't know. I'm just, again, like. An idea, a trigger. The question everybody wants to know is, you know, why and what were some of the triggers, right? And I think the probabilities favor, something that had to do with loss of status, identity fragmentation, right? Something like that.

I'm going to throw this out here because it's been on my mind. two children now left orphans. You brought up abandonment a lot. Yeah. The feeling of abandonment. And I can't help but wonder if maybe some of his resentment was that the children, too, that these children had these two loving parents. And now these children have been abandoned by their parents, not abandoned.

their parents were taken from them, but they could feel that abandonment, something maybe he's felt before. Yeah, I mean, I don't, again, I mean, yeah, that's an interesting idea that he's sort of repeating his, yes, he's repeating his childhood trauma around adoption or whatever his biological family experienced.

I think if that was accurate, it would be unconscious, almost certainly at some level. It might explain why he left the children alive. But to make that assumption, I think you'd have to say that he would have to know a fair amount about this family.

Again, I don't know. Like, good stalkers don't leave anything on turn. They don't leave. He knew how to get in their house. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Good stalkers will uncover anything.

thing. So could he have found a lot about this family? Could he have docks them to the, you know, to the ends of the earth? Yeah, he certainly could have. Yeah. Yes. All right. Well, I wanted to throw that one out there too, because it is so tragic that these two children, well, I'm grateful he left them alive. That loss will forever be part of their story now. And I'm so grateful to hear that there with loving family, but their lives now change forever because of this coward. Yeah. It's an interesting, it's a, it's a good observation because you're right. It could be, he could be, he could be replaying and acting out some of his own childhood

wounds or traumas for sure. Leaving two precious children, orphans. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. I missed, I do want to say that. for those wondering because we go table, split screen table, and what's going on.

I do miss sitting with you at our table tonight, which was our plan. We need to get like a permanent camera at our dinner table. But even if we got that, I mean, I don't know where we'd sit then, you know, as a family having it there permanently.

But so we decided to just, we're in the same house, but in separate room scenario. So I'd like to be able to look at you without twisting my neck. That's been kind of like a bonus, but I miss being with you. Yeah.

I thought we were going to do, I thought we were going to do this show at the table, but we can't because all of what we're trying to put away all of our Christmas. I got the Christmas decorations taken halfway down now too, and they're, okay, you're giving me up. But yeah,

it's all over the table. So they're not in boxes. So all of our Christmas decoration and ornaments and, and memorabilia are sitting on our table, and that's why we're not at our table. So we're working on that. Next time we'll hopefully be at our table. Yeah.

But thank you, babe. Thanks for jumping on. This case has just been such a heartbreaking one and so many wanting to understand, including me, so thank you for processing this with all of us. And yeah, until next time. All right.

Thank you. Okay. All right. You're welcome. Good night. Good night. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the Internet,

and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in. ORA actively removes your data from broker sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring,

and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring, or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove.