Hidden True Crime - VERDICT PART 1: Chad Daybell Consumed By Rage After Getting The Death Penalty? Dr. John Discusses Sentencing

Episode Date: June 7, 2024

Join Hidden True Crime as we follow Chad Daybell's trial from beginning to end. Host Lauren Matthias is in the courtroom daily, doing lunch lives on YouTube and summarizing each day and week right here on Hidden: A True Crime Podcast. Lauren Matthias was a television reporter for a decade and has followed the Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell case since 2019. She and her husband, Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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hidden true crime at checkout that's code hidden true crime use that with happy mammoth dot com for 15% off today Hello, Hidden Jens. It's Lauren and Dr. John, co-hosts and spouses, states apart because I am in Boise, Idaho, and just attended Chad Dayball's sentencing. I also attended two months of his trial from jury selection to the guilty verdict to today. and his sentencing he received the death penalty for murdering J.J. Valo, Tiley Ryan, and Tammy Debao. I used to end each of my lunch lives with May Justice be served, and today it was served. I don't know if it's necessarily, you know, something to smile about, as Colby Ryan said in his statement outside the courthouse. You can't change the outcome of what happened, but it does feel like a way to begin healing and a closure of this chapter for many of the surviving victims. It's been a nightmare, a five-year nightmare for many, and this closes a major chapter. How are you doing?

John. I'm doing fine, I guess. I mean, it's, I think endings like this are always a little bittersweet. On the one hand, you have justice, which we've all been waiting for. for for a long time. On the other hand, you have another life that potentially is going to be taken. And no matter how heinous that situation was or how repugnant we think Chad Daible is, and he's pretty bad, by the way, you still, to me, it's always a little bittersweet that, you know, the death penalty is, is always difficult because, you know, you're ending another life,

potentially and that's hard. I guess moments like this can be difficult for me because they really cause me to kind of reflect on the human condition a little bit and just not just the victims, the perpetrators and the murderers, the whole thing. And, you know, I think in moments like this, I wonder if human beings can do better. You know, are we, is this what we're, is this what we are, right? Is this is this, I mean, that's part of my profession. I think, think there's always an element here of sadness and loss all around, not just for the victims and their families and everyone affected by this and for the community of which we're a part, but perpetrators are involved in that as well. And it always makes me question how we can do

better as human beings and how we can prevent these situations in the future. whether is violence intrinsically a part of our nature? Is that something we could ever expunge from who we are? I don't know. These are big questions that always come up in these types of moments. But I feel content that there was justice. I feel like the jury delivered a reasonable outcome based on the information they had. And they believe justice was served.

And so I think that in this moment, And I think that's really important. Thank you, John. I spent lunch with, it was incredible with the Douglas family, Williams, the Ryans, Colby and Kelsey, and the Woodcock's, families that never, ever knew each other, right? Well, minus the Douglas's and the Williams. But families that never necessarily on the Ryans and the Woodcox.

But families that never thought they would all connect and never certainly wanted to connect over this. But I will say it's been really touching to me to see how the surviving victims have reached across the aisle at one another, you know, to break bread today. And, you know, Aunt Vicky as well and her husband. Yeah. And obviously my heart goes out to all the victims, you know, what you and I, you were there. But I watched the victim impact statements. And, you know, you and I have. befriended some of the people giving those statements and, you know, they're, they're heartbreaking. They're always heartbreaking. But, you know, again, there's no victory because you, we can't bring the victims back. We can't, right? So I hope one of the themes, obviously, was that many of them felt

like they weren't able to find some measure of peace and maybe, maybe this outcome will allow them to begin the long journey of trying to find some peace, which is always difficult. But yeah, I don't, you know, the whole, it's all very. difficult. I think it was a just outcome and it brings, you know, it brings to a close, at least for the moment, and probably not emotionally, but at least in terms of having a judicial outcome, it brings a long process to an end. Yes. You have been watching all week. John watched the verdict come down. John watched, as you said, all of the victim impact statements. And I'm You watch the sentencing and we have questions.

Okay. And we want to know what your thoughts are. Let's start with the verdict because we haven't talked about that yet. So and again, the camera is not the best quality. So, I mean, I went back and watched the video again in terms of how Chad was responding to what was being said and how he responded to the verdict. in some ways because it's not high definition. You know, it's hard to really zero in on some of his nonverbals. But I do think that for the most part, he was pretty stoic when the verdict was read.

And obviously he knew that the likely outcome of a guilty verdict could be the death penalty. So he knew the consequences of that. I will say that towards the very, very end, when the last charge was read and there was a guilty finding, I do think that I detected a little bit of fear. I think there was a slight change in Chad's demeanor. I think there was a slight glimmer of fear and maybe even sadness. It looked like his eyes were tearing up a little bit. I mean, he didn't shed any tears.

But to me, that was a really interesting moment because I wondered if in that moment he believed that maybe he should have done something differently. Or maybe he had a moment of remorse or regardless. rat and, you know, it didn't last very long. It was kind of a small window. And of course, then when they returned, when they got into the death penalty and death penalty arguments, of course, that all disappeared quickly. And we'll talk about that too. But I think those moments, if I'm right about that, and I don't know, you were in the courtroom so you could see it more clearly than I could, but, or prior could, because prior was right next to him. But, you know,

it did feel like there was this fear, like, you know, that he was a, afraid for his future and there might have been a little bit of sadness. And I think those moments, again, like I said, just said a minute ago, I think those moments make these situations bittersweet in the sense that, you know, it's easy to dehumanize someone like Chad Daybell or, you know, to see him as a monster or, and maybe all that's true. People can have their opinions on that. But he's a human being and there's these moments of fear and sadness that make him human. And that's what makes this hard. you know, how does a human being, and you and I have tried to answer this to our podcast,

but how does a human being get to the point where they feel compelled to murder children and spouses, right, and go on this killing spree, and yet still retain potentially moments of their humanity? To me, that's one of the bigger questions I always deal with. We talked about this a lot, but I think that moment, if I'm accurate about what I saw with Chad, And again, it didn't last very long, by the way. It was a really small window. That moment, I think, is what makes these situations so difficult. Because you wonder, I wonder in those moments, you know, maybe if circumstances were different or maybe if certain elements of his childhood were different, right, that if, that perhaps we never

would have had to go through this whole process. And perhaps people would still be alive. So maybe if he was more capable of experiencing that type of sadness or fear without being afraid of it, without anger, maybe we wouldn't be here. So I guess one of my messages tonight would be that, you know, it's okay. It's okay to feel vulnerable. It's okay to have fear. It's okay to have sadness. You know, that's what makes us human. And, you know, sometimes when we avoid those things, it can take us to dark places. So. Yeah, thank you. I want to know, it looks like Colby is also here today. Okay.

You know you. Hey, Colby. Thank you for your, for your statement. It was quite moving. It was. Thank you. We wish you the best, you and your family. Yeah.

Beyond the fear, what else did you see, John? Or should we start with the sentence? Where do you want to start? That's really, so the verdict, when the verdict came down, he was pretty stoic. There wasn't a lot of motion, except for maybe that one minute window maybe, where it did seem like there was a little bit of fear. It did seem like he was tearing up a little bit. Other than that, you know, he's,

he's been pretty, pretty emotionless and pretty unrepentant. And I, you know, I'll talk about it in a minute how that's a problem in terms of, I think, and I'll just, we'll talk about this more later,

but I think that if Chad Daybilt wanted to save his life, the best way he could have done that is to have said something and to have shown some remorse and to take responsibility, right? Because the theme that Prior and Chad Daybell keep coming up with is it's not Chad's fault. He didn't do anything wrong, right? They're all, they're blaming Lori for everything. And that's not, you know, when you're fighting for your life, that's not a good look. That's not a good strategy. You know, it always amazes me that human beings in these situations would rather take the death penalty than express remorse. and show some vulnerability and take responsibility. It's incredible. I've done evaluations with sex offenders and violent offenders for many years.

And one of the things, towards the end of every evaluation, one of the questions I have to ask them is, are you open to treatment? Are you open to therapy for what you've done? And, you know, this includes a lot of offenders that admit no responsibility for anything, but I still ask them that. Even though you're denying that you committed this crime, would you be open to therapy?

And that's an important question, by the way, because the offenders that are open to therapy are much more likely to get probation if that's an option. So I've had offenders, felons, many who have evaluated and I ask them that question. They say, no, absolutely not. I will not go to treatment. And I'll say to them, I'll say, look, you know, you're a first time offender. More than likely if you were open to treatment and you were willing to kind of look at what you did here and own up to it, you could get probation.

You could be released in the community. And I can't tell you the number of times I've heard from, I promise you, this is true. Felons who have said, I would rather spend a decade in prison than go into therapy and have to talk about my emotions or talk about my crimes. And I mean, I'll ask him again, like, okay, you know, let me clarify what you're saying here, because this is going to be in the report. that you refuse treatment no matter what, right? And they'll say, yep, that's true.

I will not go into treatment. And so I think you have a version of that here, that you have a life and death situation. And Chad Daybell essentially has to put down his pride and his ego for a little bit and stand before the jury and say, I messed up, right? I take responsibility. I am so sorry. I am so sorry for all the destruction I caused.

but he can't do it. Right? He's incapable of it. And so it's amazing. You know, it continually astonishes me that people would rather cling to their egos and their narcissism rather than, you know, just face up to what they've done or confront their emotions in some realistic manner. That is interesting. Yeah. If you just said, I'm sorry, this is the man that didn't take a plea deal.

And plea deals are always an option when somebody, for the moment, part has a death penalty on the table. Yeah, and you and I know, right, exactly. You and I know that I'm sure that at some point over the past few years, I would guess that the prosecution, I mean, we don't know details. We've heard a few things, but the prosecution probably went to chat and offer him some deals. And more than likely that the deal would have been life in prison without the possibility of parole and no death penalty, right? And that would have, that would have saved everyone a lot of time and energy. and he continually refused that. So I'm sure.

And now we see why. Because this is the guy who can't stand up and express remorse or take responsibility for his crimes. He's obstinate toward until the bitter end. He's obstinate. And it's amazing how people like Chad Daybell, and I could generalize this to felons, but people that have, let's say, narcissistic qualities or maybe even psychopathic qualities, I'm not saying he's either of those. I'm just saying qualities here.

How they just leave this utter trail of destruction behind them. And they don't care. And they don't care. And they leave this trail of destruction and tears. And, you know, upend lives, as we heard from the victim impact statements. And there's just this utter indifference because they're so wrapped up in their own egos or they're wrapped up in being right all the time. So here you have another instance of that.

The trauma and the destruction, people like this are willing. to inflict is unimaginable. Psychopaths in general, I'm not talking about Chad Daybell here, but psychopaths have an enormously negative impact on their communities way more than the typical person in a community. And it's sad and it's, you know, it's just unimaginable. I heard what you did there. What did I do? Well, you said the word psychopaths. We'll leave it at that. But I didn't say Chad Daibel was necessarily one, but yes. I know, but you didn't say he wasn't. I can neither confirm or deny that Chad Daibel is a psychopath.

I have to go forward with what you just said. This is a man who didn't show any emotion during the victim impact statements. Now, I realize he's the perpetrator, you know, the defendant, not a victim. These are people that he knew that were part of his family for 30 years crying. And they're crying about missing Tammy. They're not even yelling at him because the victim impact statements, if you know this, actually didn't mention chat, Daveau. They actually only talked about their loss because that's all they could.

And I don't know if people notice that, but all these victim impact statements could do is talk about their loss. loss and how it has affected them to lose JJ or Tiley or Tammy. But let's specifically talk about the ones about Tammy, because Tammy was Chad DeBell's family, his wife for 30 years, who he once called his one and only. And these people weeping over Tammy were his brother-in-laws and sister-in-laws and his father-in-law.

And they were crying and they were in pain. And he didn't flinch. The entire gallery, strangers were crying. Some hidden gems wrote us and said they had to pull over while listening in the car because they were crying over the loss of three people that they never knew. And Chad Debel just sat there. What is that? Well, again, this goes back to what I was just talking about.

I think you had this moment of vulnerability after the verdict was read, but that window closed quickly. That this is someone who, for the most part, is unemotional. He's defiant. We'll talk about that more later. He's clearly he's got some antisocial qualities. He tends to be a bit narcissistic. Remember we talked about the, there's this taunting element too.

There's this hostility. Remember when during closing arguments, I talked about how he was making these gestures that were completely inappropriate to the moment. Yes. Yeah. His poker face was gone and he was. Yeah. Shaking his head and nodding.

Yes. He was, I said he was doing like the, you know, He did like the fist pump. When prior said, when prior had one of his big supposed epiphanal moments and said that Chad was the target of the so-called paint gun incident and not Tammy, right? That was, that was supposed to be a game-changing moment for prior. Chad basically did, you know, Chad was all over that.

Chad's nonverbals were completely different than they'd been all trial. In fact, you know, he didn't do a fist pump, but I mean, he did a version of that. out at his head. It was not the kind of behavior you'd expect from a defendant in a criminal trial fighting for his life. I mean, to show that kind of behavior to the jury in this circumstance is a very hostile act in the sense that he's thumbing his nose at the prosecution. He's mocking the prosecution and saying essentially, see, I got you. I'm right. You know, and I mean, so we saw that. So that is consistent with everything we've talked about, the hostility, that, like, He's literally, and Prior did it, Prior did it the other day.

He went back, Prior went back and literally taunted the jury. Prior essentially said to the jury, when fighting for Chad Daybill's life, Prior essentially said to the jury, I know you've already made your decision. Think about that. Who would say, who says that? Like, I know you've made your decision, but now I'm going to show you, now I'm going to remind you of how wrong you were in your decision. And I'm going to give you the same, I'm going to give you the same,

I'm going to give you the same wrong, stupid arguments to convince you. Bomb that came into his life was a woman who previously had been married four times. And that bomb brought chaos to Jad Debo's life, maybe being manipulated. And we can argue this all day long. But when it comes to personal relationships, he wasn't a worldly man. And on the other hand, the trajectory that's coming through, the trajectory that's flying into this 29-year-old. marriage. It's a woman who didn't have one, two, three, four marriages. That's worldly experience. That's a lot of things. There's a lot of things going on there.

I didn't convince you the first time, but we're going to go, we're going to go revisit the fact that Chad was a victim. Yes. We're going to go revisit the fact that, you know, to use his language that Lori Vala was a bomb that brought chaos into his life. We're going to go revisit the fact that Lori caused all of this destruction. It was all Lori's fault. So, you know, he's taunting the jury. You think the jury, like, the jury probably already doesn't like this guy. And we can argue this all day long. Because he comes across as abrasive and he comes across as smug and arrogant.

Like, you don't want your attorney to be the way John Pryor is. I mean, you know, in fairness to Pryor, he tried. Like he's a one-man band. He didn't have the resources of the state. I mean, he did what he could. And we can argue this all day long. And he tried, he had these humble moments where he'd throw it, like the thing about when his mic wasn't working. He talked about, oh, I don't see, I don't even know how to use electronics, right?

Like skill with electronics is showing and has shown throughout this, I guess, correct? But, I mean, those moments. Either does the cozy coat. I always dreamt of being. a fisherman, right, with a 30-inch waist. You know, I wanted to be a professional fisherman. Not really good at fishing. Wasn't going to work out.

Wasn't going to make a lot of money. But it could still be a dream. I always wanted a 30-inch waste. That's not happening, folks. It's just not going to happen. I'm too old and maybe not as motivated as I should be. But we all have dreams. Now, how do we know these are dreams that Chad talks about?

Like, no, stop it. You're not helping, right? If you're going to bring in humor, don't bring in that humor. It's not working. In that sense, it was kind of like, yeah, so did Chad Daybell? Chad Daybell also had these strange fantasies, you know, about, you know, some midlife crisis and the perfect woman. And I don't know, yeah, it was a little too reminiscent of the guy who was defending. So you have, you have prior taunty.

the jury basically saying, look, I know you've made your decision. And also when he says it, he's, he's being like condescending. Oh, I know you've made your decision. Let's be honest. Buying cannabis shouldn't be complicated, sketchy or low quality. That's why I want to tell you about mood.com. That's M-O-O-D.com. Mood ships federally legal cannabis straight to your door. No medical card, no hassle. And here's the kicker. The quality is better than anything you'll find at your local dispensary. Yeah, I said it. Whether you're into edibles, concentrates, flour, or just looking to explore, you'll find it all at mood. And it's not just the variety that makes them stand out.

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even though I'm making the same argument I made the other day that you just rejected. But let's try again, because I'm right. If my ego won't want to let me, you know, put this away. And we can argue this all day long. And I've got to force this on you again. I've got no boundaries. so I'm going to push this false narrative on you again until you accept it. That's narcissism.

Yeah. Just let it go, dude. Your guy got convicted on every count. And they came back and less than two hours. Like put it away, dude. Like it's too late. If you want to save your client's life, don't taunt the jury. Right?

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But holy cow, I mean, maybe, maybe client and defense attorney were similar, right? Yeah. Yeah. Maybe they were two alike. Maybe that's why there was no plea deal because these two were so in many ways, these two were so similar. And I'm not calling prior. a murderer, by the way, but I'm just talking about worldview here, that they couldn't take a deal because they really thought that their defense was a winning strategy.

And we can argue this all day long. In spite of- You think prior did to it or do you think he was helping his client the best of his ability? If his client refused to take a deal, you know? You know, I think it goes beyond that. If I had to guess, because prior, the other, the other was another telling moment during this trial where prior talked about. I forget the context now, but he was talking about fame. And he made a comment like, I forget, maybe you remember, he made a comment like

something about fame came up and he said, I don't need any more fame. I've got enough of that. And at some point when you start writing books and you go to these preparing the people conferences and you meet all of these people and you feel like, well, maybe I'd become a little bit of a celebrity, okay? In this case, I don't want to become a celebrity. I've had enough now at this point. But, you know, Chad writes books.

Yeah, that was an interesting moment. You told me that moment. That was, was that a Freudian slip? I mean, no, it's more than that. It's like he's telling us, okay, so you weren't doing this for money. You were, apparently, you know, I think what he's saying is that that was part of it. He's doing this for ego, no doubt, part of its ego. And so, yeah, it's true.

It's possible, Chad. Chad said, no deal, no deal. I'm never taking a deal. but I think I don't know if that's accurate. I think prior thought he had a winning defense strategy and then if he, if Chad was acquitted, that he'd be the hero. You know, it'd be in the next Johnny Cochran.

He'd be always remembered for the guy who got the murderer that everyone hated acquitted. He's no Johnny. Well, he missed, right, he missed his Fitbit moment. You know, he could have had a, he could have had an OJ line in there, but he missed it. If you're cheating on your, Fitbit, you must acquit.

That should have been his Johnny Cochran moment, I guess, but he missed it. I just want to share for the people that didn't watch the victim impact statements. I don't want to read all of them. I mean, they were all quite moving, but I want to share a few

moments because some of the lines were really exceptional. Please. Thank you. So Kay, obviously. Kay was great. Thank you, Kay. Kay, quote, the pain is indescribable. The hole in my heart can never be filled. Yeah.

Colby, a part of Colby's statement, I should point out the irony here because Prior, in his closing argument against why Chad should get the death penalty, prior used the term bomb, that Lori Valo, quote, a bomb brought chaos into his life into Chad's life. So here you have prior to Colby saying that, that Lori dropped a bomb into everyone's life, including Chad's. And then Colby said, quote, I've lost everything I've ever known.

It's like a nuclear bomb dropping. That was, to me, that was really touching, especially after the prior bomb analogy. Like, no, Lori didn't drop a, like, if you want to know what a bomb dropped in someone's life looks like, look at Colby. That's a bomb being dropped in someone's life. That bomb was not dropped in Chad Dayball's life. So I think the contrast there to me, because I remembered prior saying that the previous day, the contrast there was enormous, right? Like, don't start using analogies like dropping a bomb and changing Tad's life when it's not accurate,

number one. And number two, the irony is I also thought about Colby in the Netflix documentary, which is where I met Colby. And I appreciate, Colby's great, by the way. I really, Colby's a good, a great guy. I really am glad I had a chance to meet him. and we had a good talk during the filming of the Netflix documentary. But the irony, too, of that is that show, Sins of Her Mother,

which is the Netflix documentary about the Daybell case, the basic argument that the Cox family makes in that documentary is that when Chad Daybell entered Lori's life, that Laurie's life was upended, that Chad was the bomb that came into Lori's life that created chaos, not the other way around, right? And so think about that. So you've got here on the one hand, Chad is arguing that Lori ruined his life.

And then on the other hand, Lori's not saying this, but her family is saying this. They're saying, Colby included in the documentary, said that, well, when Chad came into Lori's life,

he was that bomb. He was that thing that ruined her life, essentially, and set her on a different path. So you've got two different versions of the same situation. And I thought of that too. So I appreciate Colby sharing that analogy.

I thought it was really powerful. Samantha, I thought Samantha was great. You know, everyone was really good, but I'm just going to point out a few things here. Samantha, Tammy's sister. Samantha, quote, the lies, deception, and murder have ripped our family apart, and we do not feel peace.

There is no peace for anybody. And I kind of feel that way myself. I don't know that that's the difficulty and the complexity of cases like this. I don't know that that piece is easily, found by anybody, spectators, family, right? That's one of the challenges, I think, is how do you find peace in a situation like this? Michael, Michael Douglas, the credible statement. He was very moving. Everybody was. But Michael was the last person to talk and just the absolute devastation on his life.

Quote, I've had my peace stolen. I am wounded, broken, sad, angry, disgusted, betrayed and looking for answers on the constant pain of grief and loss. What an amazing sentence. I am wounded, broken, sad, angry, disgusted, betrayed, and looking for answers on the constant pain of grief and loss. So I don't, you know, with statements like that, with all of these statements, I think, you know, it's at that point and after closing arguments and the closing arguments, by the way, were exceptional. The prosecution really put

together a strong case and the closing arguments, I think, really tied it all together. Lindsay Blake did a great job. They all did. I mean, they all worked as a team, but for them to craft closing arguments that were so well done was really amazing. Law enforcement did a great job. You know, I give a shout out to law enforcement on this case. amazing job. So many people did such incredible jobs. These victims impact statements were incredible. Of course, Kay and Larry, you know, really gave a voice to the voiceless. Kay and Larry really kept this alive for so long and invested so much. I can't thank them enough, you know, for what they did and the difference they made. So those, I just wanted to share some

of those because I was quite moved by all of those statements. I was too. There wasn't a eye in the courtroom except for on Chad Daybell. What about prior? I'm sure he was. I don't know. Someone saw him maybe wipe a tear. And someone saw Judge Boyce and Ingrid Beatty, but not Chad. Yeah, so let's get back to Chad.

So after the death penalty, the sentencing is read. And clearly it wasn't good for him. He gets the death penalty. and Judge Boyce acts, he has to speak, just he has to say one word, whether he's going to make a statement. And he says no, he prior puts the mic over by Chad. And he says no. But interestingly enough, I think that moment was so interesting, so fascinating because he says no in a voice that I think is almost quivering. At this time, I will ask because I need to on the.

these counts before I impose any sentence, Mr. Daybell, you do have the right of allocution, which permits you to make a statement on your own behalf in any mitigation of these offenses. Is there any statement you would like to make before I proceed with sentencing on those counts? No. It's shaky. It's not a particularly confident no. No. I mean, you might be saying I'm reading too much into a simple word, but he's not saying that with a lot of authority. I think that's a no. No. That's filled with fear. I think he's angry. I think at that point he's just seething

with anger. You can't, he's trying to control it. But I think there's a lot of fear there. No. And it seems like, you know, I think there's almost a surreal quality to him. I think he, I think there's a little bit of surprise for Chad. I think he really, he felt like prior nailed his defense. and I really felt like he thought he was going to be acquitted.

So I think there is this element of shock and fear. No. I agree. I saw emotion for the first time and I saw fear, perhaps, or shock as well. And oddly enough, I think that one word, if you go back and listen to the way he says no, no. He doesn't say it with any authority. His voice is kind of cracking a little bit. It's interesting.

I might be reading a lot into that. I probably am, but if you look at his nonverbals and the way he says that, I think he, I think you do see, there's definitely some fear there, which goes back to my, after the verdict was read, kind of that, I think there's a moment of fear there too, understandably. I'd be remiss, by the way, if I'm talking about fear and Chad Daybell, I'd be remiss if I didn't, if I didn't quote Yoda from Star Wars. I love Yoda. So, Yoda on fear.

This is a famous line from Yoda. for those Star Wars are going to know this. But the context here is that Anakin Skywalker, who we all know later to be Darth Vader, expresses the fear of losing his mother. So that's an important point here. And Yoda says, quote, fear is the path to the dark side.

Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. And also, I just watched Dune Part 2. So I had seen Dune Part 1 previously, but the second part just came. came out. And one of the great lines from Dune and from the original book from the 70s is that fear is the mind killer. And so, you know, I think the reason I bring this up is because, you know,

I love Yoda. But I think for Chad Debo, summer, a lot of this has to do with fear. And seeing that fear pop up again during the trial, I think was interesting. Because I think in many ways, if you consider how Chad Daybell gets in this predicament, it's not altogether different than Anakin, Skywalker, Darth Vader fearing the loss of his mother. When he gets involved with Lori Daybell, there's this

tremendous fear of rejection by Lori. And we saw that in the love text threads. There's this fear of losing her. There's this fear of keeping her invested. There's this fear of failure. There's this fear of uncertainty about the

apocalypse and the second coming, right? there's this fear of the unknown. And you and I have talked about in our podcast, there's this fear of mortality. Chad Debo is approaching midlife. He's worried about his legacy. He's writing these books. You have all this fear, I think, with Chad Debo.

And I think some of that plays some role in these crimes. I think that part of the reason these children get murdered is because Chad's afraid of Lori rejecting him. And he wants her to be completely invested in him. And one of the ways he can ensure that she is is to ask her to do the unthinkable. If she's willing to assist in murdering her children, then he knows that she's all in with him. That's fear driven. Again, back to, back to Dune. Fear is the mind killer. Back to Yoda, fair is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

And so we've seen a lot of hate here for no reason at all. Hate based upon a false belief system that has created all the suffering that we're now dealing with. Hate leads to suffering. We're all suffering. And even though this verdict is justice, I think there's still a lot of suffering. What else? I'm here to listen. These are all the things I've been wanting to know.

I've been wanting to know what you've been thinking as much as everyone else here. They've been hearing from me every day for two months. I think those are sort of my main talking points. What about what about what happened at the end? Oh, yeah, the end. Right. So, yeah, what an amazing moment. So the sentencing's ending and Chad prior reaches over to shake Chad's hand.

So let me preface this with that there are times when you and I, when you and I talk about how sometimes there's little snippets or statements that people say that are so important for capturing who they. are. Sometimes there's these little moments of behavior that are so important for understanding someone someone's personality or who they are. And this is one of those moments. So it's a moment, by the way, that if you weren't paying attention, it could go by so quickly. But holy cow, when I saw that, I was stunned. And so what, for those who are going to hear this and not see it, so what happens is Judge Boyce requests that everyone rise and Chad Debo starts pushing himself out of the chair and then he falls back in his chair. And so essentially, Chad Daybell refuses to stand up and acknowledge the court's formal directive to rise and respect the court, right,

and to respect the process. Chad Daybell stays seated. The question you might ask is, why is this important? Because everything I just talked about, about Chad Debeau, about being defiant and hostile and fearful and oppositional, you see it here. You'll recall, Lauren, that early on in this trial, you were reaching for your phone and it looked like you weren't standing for a moment, right? And what happened? Yes, Judge Boyce was very, very upset and suggested that me and my neighbor that he also felt was not standing should not come back that day in court. Right. So it, and you, and you, You apologized.

You acknowledged it was a simple mistake. There was nothing deliberate that you were doing to disrespect the court. But not here. Chad Daibel stood every single time until today. In the very last moment of the very last court session, Chad Daibel remained seated, which was, I can't even tell you the degree to which that is absolute disdain for this court

and for this verdict and for this judge. and for this jury. And if you want to know who Chad Daybell is, go back to that moment. Because that is Chad Daybell. If I had to summarize Chad Daybell now with a couple of moments from the trial, they would be the texts where Chad says

he wants to turn up the pain on the children. So that sadistic moment about let's turn up the pain and suffering on the kids, that number one. And number two, this moment, I mean, I guess you could argue that he's got nothing to lose What's Judge Boyce going to do? Put him to death. Right?

Like at this moment, he doesn't care. It still shows who he is. Yeah. It shows the level of anger and disdain and hostility that Chad Dable harbors and is willing to show. And he does it, by the way, he does it in an extremely passive aggressive manner. So, you know, you have some defendants who might absolutely lose their composure and attack the bench or something like that.

But Chad Dable's not that guy. So for all those people who say, well, he's so quiet and he's so reserved. And yeah, okay, maybe. But that doesn't mean he's not hostile. That doesn't mean he's not oppositional. Yeah. To me, that's an extraordinary conclusion of this trial because Chad Daybelt is showing you who he is, why he committed these crimes, and what he's capable of.

And he's also showing you how defying he is, how unrepentant, how remorseless, right? You're seeing the guy. that's capable of killing a bunch of people. All he's doing is confirming the jury's decision. He's affirming that they made the right decision by doing this type of thing. And, you know, not that he's going to have any chance on appeal, but it's not going to help him. Here, Cycler Lisa in Stiv Kuling, but...

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