Hidden True Crime - VERDICT PART 2: Chad Daybell Consumed By Rage After Getting The Death Penalty? Dr. John Discusses Sentencing

Episode Date: June 10, 2024

Dr. John answers all of your burning questions surrounding Chad Daybell, this case, the verdict, and the aftermath. Join Hidden True Crime as we follow Chad Daybell's trial from beginning to end. Host Lauren Matthias is in the courtroom daily, doing lunch lives on YouTube and summarizing each day and week right here on Hidden: A True Crime Podcast. Lauren Matthias was a television reporter for a decade and has followed the Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell case since 2019. She and her husband, Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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listeners, Katie. It's clear, so I'll start here and then I have some starred ones. It's clear based on his heinous acts that Chad has a lot of rage. How was he able to control it in court and not have any outbursts? Well, until the very end, I think he thought he was going to win. So he controlled it well until closing arguments. And then during closing arguments, he started to, he was, was starting to betray himself with these particular non-verbals where he was being more, you know, demonstrative about his behavior. Closing arguments did start to show it, which was interesting because there was no verdict yet, you know, so you'd think he'd still be behaving a bit.

Yeah. He's all rage equate to outbursts, though? No. I mean, this, this failing to stand up at the end, it's not an outburst. Chad Dable's not someone who is going to physically attack someone, I don't think. He is to some degree passive, but I think he's fundamentally passive and introverted probably. So it's unlikely that he would have a violent outburst. But it doesn't really matter.

He's showing you the same level of hostility. He's just doing it in a different manner. What will happen to Emma and the other kids, now that their contact with Chad becomes limited? and they can't communicate as much with him. There are a few questions about the kids. So maybe you can kind of sum it up with a few things about the children. Somebody else wanted to know what Garth and Emma might be feeling right now. And another question would be that people have here.

Will Chad Daybell's children be able to look at evidence or ever, you know, come to some understanding? I doubt it. Maybe over a period of years they might be able to come to terms with it. but I just don't see any quick solution. And, you know, to quote, to go back to Michael Douglas's statement about looking for answers on the constant pain of grief and loss, I mean, I think they're grieving. I think they're dealing with the loss of their father and his future. And I'm sure they probably still believe him. They probably believe that he was the victim and the jury got it wrong.

And I just, I don't see them changing their opinion easily. This isn't a question, but Fay Owen says last night I went back and she watched Chris Watts being sentenced. And he showed more emotion than Chad did. Empty vessel, nothing. Anything you want to say to that? Because I know you and I have talked about Chris Watts before and said they're saying that even Chris Watts showed more emotion. Chris Watts is a little bit of an enigma because for the most part, he was sort of a regular guy. And when I say regular a guy, I mean, it's not obvious that Chris Watts is like a narcissist or psychopath or kind of a personality disorder that you might associate it with a murderer.

So I think Chris Watts is a peculiar situation in the sense that he clearly has more emotional intelligence than Chad Daybell. There's no doubt about it. Yeah, of course. I would expect Chris Watts to have more emotion because he's more emotionally intelligent. Chris Watts is somebody we haven't talked about yet, but Chris Watts, I think, would be a fascinating case study because, it's not obvious to Chris Watts. He might be a personality disorder, but it's not obvious that he is.

Whereas I think the likelihood of Chad Daybell being a personality disorder is much greater. This goes along with the Daybell children question. Will the Davell children ever reconcile with the Douglas family? That was another touching part about the victim impact statements was how they spoke to the losses of their family members that they no longer have relationships with. And again, Chad showed no remorse for.

that. Yeah, I agree. I don't know. I hope they can find some way to reconcile, but I think the day-bell children will have to start moving away from the narrative that their father was framed by Lori. I think they're going to start moving away from seeing their father as the victim and, you know, try to come to terms with the fact that their father murdered their mother. Otherwise, it may be difficult to have any type of reconciliation, I think. Yeah. This is a question many are asking, but how will Chad mentally handle being in prison and isolated from people, 23 hours a day when he clearly needs praise from people or people to revere him? Or will he be better alone than in Jen Pop? I don't know if I would make this argument, but I think someone could make an argument that one of the reasons that Chad wasn't, concerned about the death penalty is, or actually a couple of the reasons he may not have been

concerned about the death penalty were, number one, death penalty cases usually get stayed for years and years and years. So I think even those who get the death penalty, typically they're not, they may not be executed during their lifetimes. So I think Chad would know that, number one. And number two, when you get the death penalty, you're typically separated from the general population. And that could be to Chad's advantage in the sense that in the prison hierarchy, and this is something I've come to know quite well, by the way, in the prison hierarchy, harming children is not high, you're not going to be favored in prison when you do that.

So in all likelihood, there would have been tremendous risk to his personal safety in the general population. So being on death row is actually something that might protect him. This was a question from last night, and I saved it because I thought it was a great question. Does Chad still consider Lori as his goddess? Yes, I know Chad threw her under the bus, but does he still love her? Is he still in love with Lori?

I doubt it. He's probably angry at her and blames her for everything that happened to him. Even though she clearly is smitten with him, it appears. there's there's a you know ironically there's a huge divergence there I'm guessing but I don't know we'll find out I mean maybe maybe he's I don't know

now that he's in this predicament and he doesn't have a lot of choices maybe maybe he'll find his way back to her but I mean I don't clearly what he did is I don't know if they can even communicate because they're both felons yeah that's true I'm thinking in terms of I'm trying to yeah I mean they couldn't

communicate during this period during the interim period when they were going to trial, but it's possible maybe they can write letters after the, I don't know, that's a good question. Let's assume that they can communicate in written form after this. I wouldn't be surprised if they kind of return to their old beliefs a little bit and fantasize about the apocalypse and how they were right all along. And, you know, I think they could return to that belief system. I think at the moment, though, Chad's probably pretty angry. 99 pink balloons asks, can someone turn into a psychopath at the age of 50?

Is Chad now a serial killer? So they ask two questions. Yeah. It would be very unusual for someone to turn into a psychopath at 50. I think I would have to argue that those qualities, those traits, those personality features would have been present to some degree prior to his age. So I would find it, the research would not be consistent with someone becoming a psychopath at 50. You'd have to say that those elements were latent.

They were present and they were hidden. They were latent until a certain group of circumstances came together. And then that person could act out some of those traits or qualities. And I think that's something like that is more likely here. You know, you and I have talked about how there might have been certain features of psychopathy prior to all this that you wouldn't see in a criminal record, you wouldn't see in some history of criminality. But they still could be there and they could be latent and hidden

and just waiting for the right set of circumstances to arise, which they did. Dr. John, do you think the Chad will ever try to take control of how his life ends instead of submitting to the process? In other words, Yeah, that's a really interesting question. I think let's play with one scenario here. Let's say that Chad still believes strongly that he's a prophet.

Let's say he believes his visions are true and they're going to come true. He now has a problem believing that, I think, because now the state has taken control of his fate. I think it's possible that he might try to reassert control of his life so that he might try to reassert control of his life so that he could stay with the profit narrative, which he can't argue that he's a prophet if he's subjected to his current situation or, right? So, yeah, that's interesting. I don't know.

Yeah, he might take matters into his own hand and argue that he has to harm himself in some way in order to realize his prophecy and, right, and to bring in the second coming or something like that. Does he still, this is a question for me, do you think he still thinks he's prophetic? Do you still think that's his defense? Prophetic or pathetic?

Prophetic. I want to say a prophet, but I don't know if I've ever heard him say he's a prophet. He seems like he's more even, you know, of a city. I thought you said pathetic. I thought you said pathetic, but let's... Does he think he's a gifted visionary who should be up there on par with Christ? I think he still believes that. Really?

Yeah, I do. Again, this gets back to the question we keep asking. Does he really, did he really believe this stuff? I think, yeah, I think he did believe some of it. And in spite of everything that's... happen? I think he would still. Look, the jury felt that way because they came back and said he's still a risk. One of the aggravating factors was, do you think he's going to reoffend, essentially? And they said, yes. So the jury's kind of saying, yeah, they think he's, he thinks he's still a profit. If you let

him out of here, he's going to continue to gather and kill zombies and, right? They felt that way. I don't think they're wrong. Yeah. Okay. Rye guys says, I thought prior came off as very condescending. If I was a juror, I would have felt talked down to. I agree. So condescending. That's a great term. He came across his smug, arrogant, condescending, all of it. Right. You know, I could make a strong argument that the entire defense backfired. And part of that is Pryor's attitude.

And kind of these jokes that fell flat. The whole thing. I mean, you know, Prior really, not only was he not reading the jury, but he wasn't reading the room, the judge, the whole thing. I mean, yes, especially at the end when he taunted the jury with, yeah, I know your major decision and you guys were all wrong and you guys were all idiots. but hey. And we can argue this all day long. Let me, let me tell you the exact same thing that you rejected yesterday today. That's condescending. That's incredibly condescending. So yeah, did that

backfire? Yeah. If I was a juror, I'd be like, could we, why didn't we get this over four weeks ago? And we can argue this all day long. Why are you making me listen to this guy? Yeah. Hillary, Bethincourt says a prior was in quotes, let's start with a little history lesson, end quote, such a condescending start to his lecture for the jury too, right? Like, let's start with a little history lesson. This is kind of the same thing. Right, and the whole thing and the fishermen and the waistline like that. You know, I wanted to be a professional fisherman.

Not really good at fishing. Wasn't going to work out. Wasn't going to make a lot of money. But it could still be a dream. I always wanted a 30 inch waste. That's not happening, folks. It's just not going to. happen. I'm too old and maybe not as motivated as I should be. But we all have dreams. Now,

how do we know these are dreams that Chad talks about? He's trying to be like an every man, but he's not an every man. Like it just, the whole thing fell flat to me. I do think it backfired. You know, I will say this, he was a one man ban. You know, there was so much evidence. Like, I mean, given his resources, I will give him, he tried. He had a lot of blonde. He had a line spots, but he tried. Given the fact that he's a one-man ban with almost no help, he tried. I mean, I didn't think it was very effective, but he did his best. We're wondering why prior or Chad's children did not argue to spare his life. Is this going to be a case of never ending appeals? Yeah.

I think bringing his children up would have backfired. Yeah, I agree. I think his children were, the jury already were somewhat skeptical of his kids. I think they knew it would have worked against Chad. But yeah, I mean, I thought the same thing for a moment. And then I thought, I don't know. I think the jury's already disenchanted with his kids. So I, you know, to bring him back and plead for his life when essentially they, you know, they're sort of, they're carrying their dad's water. They're kind of, you know, lying for him. And I don't know. I don't think it would have been effective. Yeah. Shades of gray. Shades of gray is pulling a, well if you were if i mean they're this is my voice not theirs they're asking what defense you would have

gone with but i'm doing it as if i was you know how i did it with my you know brothers growing up well if you were in prior shoes what would you do well if you have all the answers that that is not how they're asking it no but that is a good question how about let's do this if prior had consulted with you what would you have suggested to him i would have told the first thing i would have told him Scale it back. Scale back your defense tremendously like Lori, like Archibald did for Lori. Archibald, by the way, to me, was much more likable and less condescending, by the way. But scale it back and focus on a few points that you know you can land with the jury.

And if you're going to develop a theory of the case, let's talk about it. And I'm not saying, I don't think I would consult with prior, by the way. But in theory, if I did, I'd say develop a theory of the case that's much more coherent and it's based on the evidence and see if it fits. But to do that, his approach was totally scattershot. To do that, I think you'd have to really be focused on the most critical elements of the case and where the prosecution had weaknesses, and you'd have to be really disciplined. And even then, you know, even then the bottom line is it's sort of like Lori.

I think, you know, Pryor was dealt a bad hand to begin with. So I'm sure it was an uphill battle. But if I had to help him, I'd say, look, you're stretching here. You got it, you got to reel this thing in. You got to pull it back. You got to limit it to a few elements that are really. persuasive. And once we find those, let's build out a coherent theory of the case from there. Is the reason the daybell kids can't face the truth because with the truth comes shame?

Yeah, that's true. I think that I think that part of this issue is that they're extremely guarded and defended because they don't want to deal. Well, shame, they don't want to deal with the shame. Yes, they don't want to deal with the shame. You know, one of their spouses killed another spouse. That's a profound. That's a profound realization to have if you're a child, I think, and one that can really overthrow your view of the world. Does Chad disassociate? I don't know.

Maybe. I mean, yeah, that's interesting. I don't know. I don't know enough about Chad to really make that determination. But, I mean, you know, it's interesting. There's research showing that most murderers have some dissociative disorders or they tend to dissociate. So it's possible.

Yeah, sure. Somebody asked earlier about mitigating factors, by the way. Why weren't any mitigating factors brought in? I think the short answer is I don't know if there were any. Dr. John, without offering a diagnosis, they see elements of OCPD. What is OCPD? Sess of compulsive personality disorder. Okay.

Which to me explains much of his behavior that was seen in court in addition to any cluster B personality. Because OCPD is cluster C, right? So they're saying they're saying that they see out, they're saying they're saying, They're saying they see elements of cluster C, but are you seeing any cluster B personality thoughts? Cluster B would be histrionic personality disorder, borderline, antisocial. It's the one we usually talk about narcissistic personality disorder. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet,

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But I think it's interesting to note that I don't know if it would be obsessive-compulsive personality disorder. It might be more obsessive-compulsive elements. In other words, less personality, more behavior. A lot of murderers do have elements of obsessive-compulsive disorder that may or may not be personality-related. So, you know, so it's an interesting question. It could be, it could be personality related, but, uh, but probably more it used to be,

we used to call it Axis 1 and Axis 2. We don't, we don't classify things in the DSM that, but in the, and back in the old days, it would be more OCD on Axis 1 rather than access 2. All right. What's one financial lesson you learned the hard way? I'll go first. It's not too late to start saving. Today's episode is sponsored by Acorns.

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That's Effecti.com, EFFF-E-C-T-Y.com and use code Hidden True Crime to get $50 off your first month of GLP-1 weight loss treatment. no hassles, no memberships, and no hidden fees. Get started today. I'm going to just read this one, but Chad saying, Barb is saying, thank you, Barr for this. Chad saying turn up the pain on the kids was one of the most alarming statements he made. Does this sadism come from eternal pain he suffered, perhaps in childhood? He appears to deal with anger and rage and contained ways. As far as we know, there's no significant childhood abuse in Chad Dable's life, although we were probably the first, and as far as I can tell, we're one of the only people that have speculated on the fact that there seems to be some element of neglect in Chad Daybell's past.

And so what I mean by that is I think Chad Daybel was a child who needed a lot of attention. He wanted a lot of attention. He wasn't getting that attention. He needed to feel special. He wanted to feel special. He didn't feel special. And so I think from Chad's perspective, he probably felt like he was neglected to some degree. If I was interviewing Chad Debeau, would I classify that as neglect? I don't know. I mean, so there's a difference between neglect from his perspective versus what's call it more of an objective perspective. What would his parents say? What would his brothers say?

What would his family say? Did they feel neglected? Did they feel like there were conditions in the home where Chad was neglected? I don't know. I'd have to talk to those people and make that determination. But I think the closest thing with Chad that we can discern at this point is that there might have been some type of neglect from his point of view. Did Chad think of himself as a higher being?

And is that why he didn't take a plea deal? I guess it's sort of a combination of the questions you've been asked, but I guess a little bit more specific. You believe that he thinks he's gifted still. and you believe he is arrogant, but is being gifted the reason he didn't take a plea deal? I think it's part of it. Part of not taking a plea deal must have been that he thought he could prevail and thinking he could prevail has to be tied into some type of pride

or maybe some type of narcissism. I mean, because when you look at the evidence and you look at what the prosecution has, I think most reasonable people would assume that you're not going to prevail. Especially after Lori's trial, by the way, Looking at the outcome there, you'd have to think that the chances were fairly dismal, but he didn't. So, yeah, does he believe he's still a profit? I think he's struggling with it.

Do you think Chad would ever be capable of genuine remorse? I have worked with some felons over the years. So one of the things I talk about is running offender groups. And I have had some felons in my groups for a decade. And when they first came in, they were extremely oppositional and defiant. And I had very little hope that they would change. But over time, they actually were able to develop some empathy and show remorse. And so it's possible.

It all depends on their Chad's willingness to change. If he has any, it seems like he doesn't have a lot of motivation to change. But if he did, it's possible he could develop some remorse. I wouldn't hold my breath, but he might. Do you think that Chad Daybell told John Pryor the truth? I guess it also depends on what the truth is. I mean, what does Chad Deval think the truth is? I guess that begs the question,

does Chad DeBelle, what does Chad Daybill think the truth is? And did he tell John Pryor the truth? I don't know. I don't think he told prior the truth. I think he probably, I don't know. I don't know. That's a tough question. I can't.

He probably gave prior his version of events. He probably denied most involvement. I don't know. All right. Do you think that Chad Debel struggled with, you work with offenders, some S offenders, I'm using wording. And Candice is asking if you think he struggled with some sort of, you know, those type of addictions or disorders that maybe S offenders do. Maybe I think that could go hand in hand with, if he had some OCD qualities,

maybe some of that, or it could go hand in hand with his attitude towards, women. I think for the most part, he saw women as inferior or objectified women. So I think that's part of it. If he did have those tendencies, then I think that that would be, those elements would play a role in that. If the theory was all of Lori's fault, why would they not have a psych witness for mitigation to testify to like Stockholm or, you know, some sort of coercion? Because they know that, they know it wasn't all Lori's fault. So I, speaking to mitigation, so I've been involved in quite a few mitigation cases, by the way. And when it's on the defense side, it's almost always on the defense side, the defense will,

they'll try to float with a theory of the case or they'll try to get me, they'll kind of try to suggest what they think the mitigating factors are. But it's still up to me to make that determination. So in the end, you know, there may or may not be mitigating factors. they have to bring an expert to find those. But I think if you brought in someone to, if you argued that it's all Lori's fault, the person that would be evaluating Chad for mitigation would probably have a hard time believing that. I can't even imagine what Tammy suffered during their marriage.

Can you talk about maybe why it wouldn't be noticed by the children or how this could happen and have it not be noticed or the subtle things that maybe could have been missed or even confused Tammy? I don't think it would be glaringly obvious the way he mistreated her. I think it would be subtle, like giving her the silent treatment when he's upset with her, that type of thing, or avoiding her, ignoring her for days on end maybe when he's angry with her. Or triangulating, we know from his book, he talked about bringing in some of Tammy's family to help deal with a situation like her depression, or she was playing a game too much. He didn't have the capacity to address it directly with her.

So we brought in other members of the family to address it. You know, things like that, the lack of direct communication, the lack of open expression of feelings and thoughts, maybe being critical of certain things a lot. You know, those moments can be normalized. If a family's used to Chad, let's say it's Chad, to a parent being hypercritical of a spouse, then they don't know any better. They see that as normal. And so I don't know if Chad was super critical.

I think he may have been a little bit, but even subtle criticism. can take a toll. I think there were a lot of those things going on, but they were, none of them, I would guess, were over the top, right? They weren't at the level of pushing her, slapping her, physical violence, restraining her, any of that. So it might have been confusing to the kids to see behaviors that in many ways would be considered abusive and coercive, but not to understand that. Yeah, it would be very confusing. Dr. John, what do you think of Chad's social, emotional maturity? He seems emotionally stunted. You think.

Let's talk James and Elena text. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Anybody who was with us for our analysis of the text thread would know how we feel about that. But yeah, I agree. There's definitely some, there's a lack of emotional intelligence. And there does seem to be maybe some developmental arrest.

And I'm not sure exactly where that would be. But he definitely seems to come off, you know, to present at a much younger age, than he is. Heather asked Dr. John, was Lori and Chad, were they always crazy or did they go crazy? Did they always have this in them? We've done like, that's like a whole podcast season. For the most part, people just don't go crazy overnight. I think usually there's some propensity towards craziness that exists. And there could be a special set of circumstances or a situation that brings it out. And so I think, I think for both of them, there were probably some features of to use the person to use Heather's term. There were, there were some features of craziness that were

present, and they just needed the right catalyst to kind of set the crazy free. So I've always said that they sort of encouraged each other and they played on each other's craziness. And that's what really lit the match here. Yeah. What else would you like to say before? we go. I was thinking about you and I will get together on Patreon and some other platforms and talk about more kind of our personal journey and our personal experiences on this case. I think we're, we need a little time to digest it and reflect on it too since it's so, since the verdict is so fresh, right? So I think we're, we're not quite at the end of this process, but. No, we're not. We hope to also interview some of the law enforcement and hopefully prosecution as well.

There was a case in Australia that we talked about in our book club several months ago. It's the Robert Farquison case. Many people in this country don't know about it, but it involved three children. And essentially, their father drove them into a lake. None of the children survived. One of the children, Jai, was 10, Tyler, 7, Bailey, 2. And the big issue was, so Farquison argued that it was an accident that he had, this seizure and he passed out and the car went off the road and went into the Lickison

survived and climbed out of the car and went to safety. Never mind that Farkwison didn't seek any help for the children for a significant period of time after. In fact, not only did he not seek help, he went to see his wife to let her know what happened, almost as if he was punishing her because his wife had divorced him. A big part of that case was that whether it was an accident or whether it was deliberate. It's interesting because I think a lot of people didn't want to believe that a father could do that to his kids. And so I'm sure there was a lot of debate about his motives and what happened. And that was a big part of it.

This woman Helen Garner, she wrote a book that we read called This House of Grief, fantastic book. She talks about the trial and she talks about the loss of the kids and how unimaginable it is. And I was thinking today after this case was resolved or sentencing was resolved about some of the parallels. And there's a line in here that she wrote towards the end of the book that I want to read because it sums up so many of my feelings about this particular case. So I'm just going to go ahead and do that here. This is page 300 of the Helen Garner book. She says, when I let myself think of Jai, Tyler, and Bailey, line in their quiet cemetery, watched over by the gold.

emblems of Bob the Builder and the bombers. I imagine the possessive rage of their families. You never knew them. You never even saw them. How dare you talk about your grief. But no other words will do. No other word will do. Every stranger grieves for them. Every stranger's heart is broken. The children's fate is our legitimate concern. They are ours to mourn. They belong to all of us now. I feel like in this case and in this tragedy, I feel like after this verdict, I feel like all these victims, they belong to us now, you know, as we mourn the loss of the children and the adults and all the victims. And I would go further as we mourn the loss of all victims of crime and all children of crime and all children that we lose in general. And I think that this case, to me,

it's a reminder of all our shared grief. And I hope that we've seen this in our community and it's been remarkable. But, you know, I really feel like in many ways we've kind of united as one in our shared grief, maybe not as one, but we've been able to share our grief over this case. I think now maybe with this verdict that we can really start coming to terms with that. And I feel like that should include all victims of crime, all children who are victims of crime. And maybe, you know, I started with the idea that sometimes I question our hope for humanity when I see cases like this. But maybe, just maybe, if we really mourn and grieve and understand the implications of these types of situations, maybe we can, maybe we can find some hope.

Your Mike. Thank you. I can't wait to now fly home to see you so that I can then sleep for a month. We're eagerly awaiting your arrival, believe me. I think the house, since even though you've only been gone a week now, I think the house is taking a turn for the worst. I know everyone's like, you need to take a vacation. I'm like, I'm going to be taking a vacation to clean, I think.

You know, things are bad when your son tells you, so our son told me the other day, he's like, Dad, I'm pretty good at making messes. And I'm like, I was like, yep, I agree. And I used to be good at cleaning them up, but, you know, I just kind of, I just gave up at this point. So we're waiting for you to clean up some messes with us.

I can't chase down any more messes at this point. I'm grieving too much. I am grieving, by the way. This case has been hard. And I hope, I hope in our own small way that we made a little difference somewhere here. But I think we did. You certainly did, John. You've made a difference to me too.

I want to say processing this tragedy for nearly five years with you has made a world of difference for me. You always say that a better understanding of crime is a better understanding of ourselves. And I can honestly tell you that four and a half years later, I know myself better. And I've changed for the better and I've grown for the better. And I've thought more and I'm more aware. and I want to thank you because I see the world in a little bit, a little bit differently now. Little or a lot, I don't know, but I thank you for that because you've allowed me to talk about this case with you for so long.

It's become a part of our family history now in a way talking about it, understanding it, learning about it, getting to know the surviving victims. and you allowing me to be at both trials every day because you took over at home. And so I want to say thank you to you too for all you've done for me and for a family. Thank you. And I appreciate the hard work you put in and all your sacrifices too. So it hasn't been easy being up there.

but as I said you're gonna have to help me chase down some messes here because I don't know you guys you know it's bad when you have to like shoe away the you know like I was like okay you can just like hire someone

I'm like no they wouldn't know what to do either I was there over Memorial Day and John even said he's like can you help me just try to clean our son's room and I was like yeah and then I saw and I thought you know what just in a week, in a week. All right, everybody, thank you.

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