Hidden True Crime - VISIONS OF GLORY- PREPPER MAYHEM - MORMON STORIES/HIDDEN TRUE CRIME COLLABORATION PART TWO

Episode Date: November 17, 2023

PART 2 of HIDDEN TRUE CRIME'S COLLABORATION WITH MORMON STORIES PODCAST with Host John Dehlin and Lauren Matthias. What do Chad Daybell, Tim Ballard andJodi Hildebrandt have in common? Is it Thom Harrison, author of Visions of Glory? PART TWO explores the connections between the book Visions of Glory and the extreme beliefs of Chad and Lori Vallow, Tim Ballard and recently imprisoned therapist Jodi Hildebrandt. Thom Harrison is a Utah therapist who published a book called "Visions of Glory" in 2012, focusing on three of his alleged near-death experiences (including personal visitations from Jesus Christ). Thom Harrison and his book have been highly influential across the Mormon "prepper" community, and particularly in the lives and stories of Chad Daybell, Lori Vallow, Tim Ballard, Jodi Hildebrandt, as well as other "preppers" such as Julie Rowe, Rod Meldrum, and alleged abuser-therapist Maurice Harker. Megan Conner, Lori Vallow Daybell's cousin, as well as Mindy Caldwell, host these podcasts exploring the book Visions of Glory, and the influence that Thom Harrison has had an extremist Mormon prepper community. Other pertinent Hidden True Crime Episodes: Daybell crash course Chad Daybell speech Braxton Southwick Interview Jodi Hildebrandt beliefs Tim Ballard LAUREN MATTHIAS has worked as an anchor and reporter for ABC, NBC, and FOX News in Idaho and Salt Lake City, Utah. She spent a decade reporting on a diverse range of topics from high profile crimes to Presidential visits.. In 2015 she received the Idaho State Broadcaster’s Association Best Reporter award. She left the reporting world to produce the Hidden True Crime Podcast along with her husband Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and is a frequent contributor on News Nation. WEBSITE: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ TO SUPPORT: https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your host for today. John DeLan, it is October 17th, 2023, and we are now covering part two of our series on a book that has taken the Mormon Church and Mormon Preper Church Culture by Storm. The book is Visions of Glory. The author of the book is Tom Harrison, Mormon therapist Tom Harrison, and we just spent a good five in a quarter, five and a half hours, talking about Tom Harrison, his history, his claims, his connections to all sorts of alleged criminals. I don't know. I think that's accurate. Not that he, I'm not saying he's trying to be a criminal, but he seems to sprout criminal behavior allegedly. And we talked about, we did a deep dive into his book, Visions of Glory, which is a book

that he published in 2012 with a co-author scribe named John Pontius, who has passed away, under the pseudonym Spencer, where he talks about his three near-death experiences, and he talks about the second coming of Jesus, Mormon-style, Mormon prepper style, and all the activities and visions and mayhem that's going to lead up to that, including the white cities, et cetera, et cetera. So that was part one, and we promised to come back for part two because if that weren't enough, we discussed as a setup to last episode the connections to several recent global news stories,

Chad Daybell, Lori Vallow, several murders associated with them, Tim Ballard, CEO of Operation Underground Railroad. You know, he now has several sexual allegations against him and allegations of fraud. And then, of course, we have Ruby, Ruby Frankie, the Eight Passengers YouTube channel and therapist Jody Hildebrand. All of those criminals or alleged criminals or people who are in jail have deep connections to Tom Herald. Harrison and the book Visions of Glory. And we're going to be talking about that more here in part two. And joining us traveling here from all the different places they live. First, we have the Lauren Matthias, the 50% of the Hidden True Crime YouTube channel. Hey, Lauren. Hello. You ready to go more?

Like, is five and a half hours not enough? Ready to go. Let's do that. two or three. Why not? Anything else you want to add to the, I know you're, we're doing a joint simulcast to my audience and yours. Anything you want to add is an intro? No, thank you. Yeah, hidden a true crime podcast, a YouTube channel or podcast. Thank you for for having me. I'm so grateful we can do this collaboration. John and I have been talking about this along with the two other guests we have here for for so long. And I think it's, it's just, it's due time. And, I'm grateful we're rocking this all out tonight, part one and two.

Yeah, and if you're interested in true crime, especially covering Utah, Idaho, Arizona. Honestly, a lot of Mormon themes. Lauren has a career as a reporter as a journalist, and she's carried that into with her forensic psychologist, husband, Dr. John. So check them out. If you want to check out the latest on Tim Ballard, you know, the Debel Valo case, Ruby Frankie, she's got it all and more, right? Yes, and Jody Hilder.

Yeah, we cover crimes from all over. It's just that Mormons keep delivering content these days. So I'm probably going to have to start a channel with John called Mormon hidden true crime stories or something. But yeah, we cover crime. We delve into crime. We've deep, for four years, we've covered the Lori Valo. Chad Daybell case and then we've been covering Jody Hildebrand and we've been covering yeah, and Tim Ballard.

All right, yeah. Yeah. All right. So also joining us today, back on Mormon Stories, is the Megan Connor. Hey, Megan. Hi. Megan is known. She had her own Mormon Stories episode.

Was it one or multiple? I think it was just one back in May. And Megan is Lori Vallo's cousin, first cousin. Correct? That's right. And so she grew up spending summers with Lori's family because it was her family. Yeah, exactly. And she's also super smart and informed and wise about all these issues. So we're so grateful you'd come out of state to join us. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for having me. And we have my brilliant wise book club friend, Super Sleuther. she wields her binders with force and truth.

Yes, I do. The Mindy Caldwell. Hey, Mindy. Hi, glad to be back. I'm glad we're doing this all in one night. This is fun. Happy anniversary to you and Steve. Thank you.

Happy anniversary, Steve. I love you. Is Steve going to not forgive me for keeping you here all day during your anniversary? I think he'll get over it. He'll be fine. We have plans to celebrate otherwise. Yeah. Thank you.

And Mindy, you are, Megan was responsible for the main structure of part one. Mindy, you kind of took the lead here for part two. I did, yes. So we really appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah. And of course, we welcome everyone joining us on the live streams, YouTube, Facebook, etc.

I want to start by just thinking everyone who donates to Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation, all of this is because of those of you who are monthly donors who go to Mormonstories.org, click on the donate button and become monthly donors. We always appreciate super chats here on YouTube. And then Lauren, how do people support you if they want to support you and John? Yeah, thank you. Patreon.com slash hidden true crime. We do episodes there and we also have a book club.

In fact, we have a book club this Wednesday where we do a movie club and a book club and we do a live Zoom for everyone. And that's through patreon.com slash hidden true crime as well. This Wednesday we're covering abducted, it was abducted in plain sight about the, East Idaho family that Skyborg went documentary on Netflix. It's a few years old now, but Oh, that was a good one. Oh, that was a good one. Yeah. Yeah, another Mormon crime. The girl gets kidnapped by the same man. Correct, correct. So we'll be discussing that on live Zoom and you can join that through Patreon. All right. All right. So we're in for another round. And Mindy, do you want to kind of kick this off and guide us through a little bit?

Sure. So we decided that we would talk about, we feel like we covered the book, Visions of Glory, adequately in our previous episode. Thoroughly. Thoroughly. And so we thought that for this episode, we would talk about the more current connections to Tom Harrison as the therapist and local therapist and the influence that he's had in the community. sometimes connected to the book, Visions of Glory, and sometimes separate from that, but we feel like it's important to highlight these connections because, as John mentioned in the introduction, many of these connections to Tom have resulted in some criminal and somewhat disturbing behavior and have gotten a lot of national and global recognition.

So that's why we feel connected to this first episode that it would be important to highlight some of these stories. So some of this will be a little bit of a repeat. We'll try to get through this quickly. But we also want to take the time to touch on things thoroughly. And so you have an understanding of these connections. So I have a hard time saying the word connections now. Because of Jody Hill-Brand. I think I've studied so much. I've studied so much of these videos and podcasts. And I'm like,

oh, every time I say the word connections, I cringe a little bit. I can't say distortion either. You know, I can't say something's distorted because I'm like, no, that's Jody Hildebrandt. You ruined that for me. It's okay, Mindy, you are not, not enough. That is, you are not enough is the name of Jody Hildebrandt's book. It's an interesting title. Okay. And we will get to Jody Hildebrandt later on. But first, we're just going to you recap and touch on Chad and Lori Debel because I, Lori Debel because are we calling her Lori Debel? Are we calling her Lori Valo?

Lori Valo, Debo. Either works. Either works. Either works. And it's hard because the Valos don't want her to be called Vallow. The DaBels don't want her to be called Daibel, but she's kind of both. And legally in the trial they called her Valo because legally her name is Vallow. Okay.

All right. It's whatever you feel. I think we start with them because I think their case is the most tragic. of all of them. We're mindful of the victims in this case of Lori Vallow's children, JJ and Tiley, who were murdered. Chad's wife, Tammy, was murdered. Lorry's, I think we refer to him as her ex, but he wasn't her ex at the time they were still currently married. So her husband, Charles Vallow, was murdered, and possibly there could be other deaths associated. So there was an attempt on on on brandon budrell's life he was the niece of Lori he was Lori Valas

niece's husband or estranged husband there was an attempt on his life so there's just a lot of criminal behavior with this group so we figured that they would be the the starting point and we did cover a lot of a lot of this case in our last episode but we'll touch on a few things that we didn't cover last time one thing you mentioned JJ and Tiley right yes did they mention them Your name? It's important to mention their names. Some people were saying to say their names and so. Oh, yeah. J.J. and Tyler. She did. Yes, I did. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Sorry.

Yes. Thank you for the reminder. We can say their names a lot. So one thing we didn't mention is that Lori was a fan of the book Visions of Glory long before she met Chad. And so by the time she and Chad's paths crossed, she was already swimming in these waters of like a near-death experience. experiences and times. And so Lori meets Chad at a conference where he is speaking about his visions and he makes reference to a part of the book in Visions of Glory. And so we have a video clip. Lauren, do you want to talk about this video clip? Yeah. And I want to say too that this is a preparing a people conference and while preparing a people conference no longer exists because I think Chad gave it a bad name.

It's now Latter Day Media is still run by the James as Mike and Nancy James. So this preparing a people conference is one of the many conferences that gave Chad Daybill a platform. And one of the many that, you know, many of the people that attend this conference read the book, Visions of Glory. And we're going to delve into those conferences and to these people. So I just want to set that stage. It's really important. And so, yes, in this little clip we're about to play, I put this together, I scripted this. but you are going to hear a voice refer to Spencer.

And this is Chad Daybell speaking at that conference, and it's actually the day he meets Lori Ballow. The speech Chad gave to Lori Valo is on our channel, Hidden True Crime. We're the only ones that have that speech. And this is taken from that speech. He actually mentions Spencer and Visions of Glory in that speech. And there's also a little bit with Anna that you interviewed,

where she was part of the proper community and she. Yes, and Anna was a member of AVow, another voice of warning. And so she brings up Visions of Glory. So AVow is the Prepper website located in Rexburg. That's also another major player in giving Chad DeBal his platform. And Anna is an ex-member of AVow sharing what she's discovered and what she thinks really affected the belief system. And she mentions Visions of Glory. Should we play it?

Let's play it. All right, let's roll the clip. According to multiple sources, including family, Lori also loved the book, Visions of Glory, by John Pontius. Pontius passed away from cancer shortly after his book's publication and remained a member of the LDS Church at death, but his book, too, has been controversial. It revolves around a man named Spencer and Spencer's multiple near-death experiences and visions. Pontius interviewed Spencer for his book and declares Spencer. He declares Spencer's visions as truth. I believe the 10 tribes have great gifts that we don't understand.

And Spencer's book, Visions of Glory. He talks about how they can just mold rock. They can take a tree and tell them to be a chair or something like that, and the tree will obey. I found the real Spencer during my research. He's a therapist from Salt Lake City, Utah. His real name is Tom Harrison. After asking Harrison many questions, he mailed me a letter he had written to leaders of his LDS congregation in 2014. I read a part of the letter to one of our interviewees named Anna, who also brought up the controversy and prominence of the book, Visions of Glory.

Here is a snippet from that interview. I don't know that I'd ever heard of portals before Visions of Glory. Okay. And, you know, Mike Strouds started talking about portals. Chad's talked about portals. But, yeah, I think it's really influenced people. It's really influenced people, she says, to say the least. So what do you guys take from that as being kind of essential takeaways?

The prominence of the book. I think that this group, so again, these conferences, it's being talked. about. That this is, well, though, so again, Anna's in a vow, a prepper website that does visions and, you know, visions and dreams and prepping in Rexburg, Idaho. And then you have the preparing people conference, and Chad is talking about it. Then she mentions Mike Stroud. He's now an excommunicated member from Arizona. He was a seminary teacher for years, and he's talking about it. Julie Rose talking about it. This book is taking this group of like-minded Mormons by by Storm.

It is well known, even if you've never heard of this book, I think it's really important to say, because I hadn't heard of this book until the daybill case, but it's really important that even if you haven't heard about this book, this book is making ways. Absolutely. I think that the next clips that we want to talk about, oh, before we do that, we did mention in the previous episode about the video from Hawaii where the police approached Lori. and Chad poolside. We don't have to show the whole video again, but I do think we have a clip of that. If you can show that, a photo. And just everyone pay attention to the book that's under Lori Vallow's

right knee. This is after all the deaths of all the children, of the ex-spouses, of the spouses, check out while they're in Hawaii at the pool side, what book is under Lori Vallow's knee. And it's really full circle. Here we have the speech. that Chad gave when he's meeting Lori for the first time mentioning it. And here he is now with his new wife after a murder spree reading it. This book is clearly not just, this book clearly, clearly has played a major role in their belief system. Yeah, for those who can't see the visions of Glory book is right there on the beach lounge chair under, under Lori Vallow's knee. and Chad's kind of bending over, you know, checking at least the book out?

Yeah. And is this a good time to also state that I do know from three separate sources, once again, that Tom Harrison was meeting with Chad, Daybell, and Julie Rowe from three extremely reliable sources now. I have that information. And we don't have a video clip that's just a still. Is that right, Mindy? Yeah, we showed the video clip in the first episode.

I don't think we need to show that again. Okay, cool. Lori, or excuse me, Lauren, had the opportunity to interview a gentleman by the name of Braxton, Southwick. Megan, do you want to tell us about Braxton? Well, Braxton is another one of my cousins. Also lived in the California area when we were kids, and we did spend a little time together during the summers. Braxton became an extreme prepper. He appeared on many, many episodes of...

of, I think it was a Discovery Channel documentary about prepping and went around lots of different places and on different radio shows and everything talking about his prepping and really became a part of, you know, this extreme prepper community. You know, he was, he is still, I think, very, very big into that. And he's also not a fan of mine. So. And to clarify, if you're wondering, yes, because he is Megan Conner's cousin, he is also Lori Vallow's cousin and he has shared that he

gave Lori visions of glory, that they have talked about visions of glory a lot. So he has, he said that this book was the book that they talked about. And so yes, I'm very grateful. I interviewed your cousin, Lori Valle's

cousin, for two hours. And we talked about a lot about visions of glory and prepping. So yeah, I think we can roll the first clip with Braxton. And in this clip, he talks about how he and Lori often discussed the book Visions of Glory. All right. Let's roll it.

Who would you and you and Lori talk about together when you would talk about your like-minded beliefs when it came to the prepping community? Who did you discuss? Just the books. Nobody. And then which books? Which books? The biggest one was visions of glory. Okay.

That was just a great book. We liked talking about that one. We talked a few times. A few times? Parts in the book and what we thought and what we interpret it when we read it. It was just fun, you know. Did she take it literally? I think so.

I kind of do too, some of the stuff. you know, take literally, but for me, it's all good and fun. And I think she just took it as scripture. I think that's what a lot of these people did was take it more scripture than anything else. So, okay, I have so many questions. Thank you for delving into this. So Visions of Glory. You said you have your book with you, right?

Do you have your book? I just pulled it out of my library downstairs. Yeah, that book became, I've been reading this book. I've read it a few times now. I didn't know about it until this case. This is, that was research. So you and I talked on the phone even and he said,

well, did you like? I said, I have to be honest, Prax, and I read it very biased because I was reading it for research of this case. And so, no, I have to admit, I didn't like it because I'm seeing all these similarities in the book

that Lori's seen, I've seen similarities in Tom Harrison, he's Spencer's beliefs and Lurries. We'll get into that in just a second. You know, this book though I've heard from many people she liked it and then it was definitely confirmed in trial when body cam footage or cell phone footage I should say from kawai police showed Lori reading it by the pool side when she was delivered the order to to present her children to the court and then in addition to that confiscated it and it showed it in all of the the the search of her vehicle that they had taken this this religious book you know it's it's really interested me for quite a while i've talked to numerous people who have told me they felt that this book played a role

to the point where i finally listened to it and i i can't help but see what they're talking about i i feel like this is where portals began everyone sort of made fun of chad and lorry's belief in portals but it's very clear that portals are all the rage and visions of glory and that many people do take this book seriously seriously seriously what the fetch was he saying what did he say fun what it's all good fun i think right after that i finally said to him what do you mean by good and fun right I was like, let's go back to what good and fun is. Right. But yeah.

That book is anything but good and fun. I don't see it as fun. I see there's a lot of carnage. I see it's violent. Yeah. I see a lot of death and destruction in the book. It's quite scary to me. Yeah.

So Visions of Glory was not the only book that influenced your cousin Braxton and Lori's cousin Brexton, but it does sound like that was the one book that he had the closest connection with Lori that they would discuss the most. So, John, let's go to the next, skip the next clip, the following clip. And this is, Braxton is discussing these books. And he and Lauren have a great discussion about whether or not he believes in demonic possession. Do you have anything to add to that before we watch it? No, yeah, we can go ahead.

Is the one you're skipping part of that too? Oh, do we need to do that one too? I think we just do them. Oh, yeah, let's do them both. Sorry. No, it's okay. All right. I'll roll it. I'll roll it.

Visions of Glory is written by a man named John Pontius, but he's essentially like the ghostwriter. He's writing the visions of Spencer. Spencer is an alias, but his real name is Tom Harrison, which I can share because he has come out publicly multiple times. I actually grew up near the Harrison family. So Tom Harrison wrote this book, Visions of Glory. and he states at the book that these are his visions that he had dreams dreams and visions of the last days and it's a near-death experience book gone here are the visions of the last day that's just one of the genre we keep talking about but it's it's in great detail and he discusses portals he discusses the days of tribulation he discusses his wife dying suddenly because of the he has another mission to fulfill. He does share a chapter, and I'm sure you know this.

You've read a few times too where evil spirits are getting into a man who's looking at porn. They're getting into the top of his head. Yeah. Lots of books. Not just these books that we're reading. A lot of books. A lot of books. The same thing.

And seem to me he might not have used the word zombie, but to me that's what a zombie is. Yeah. Maybe that's why they called it a zombie. they are saying the same thing. But yeah. There's enter through the crown of your head. Yes. And when you do evil things, they're going to be able to get in and they don't want to leave.

They want to take over your whole body. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to me, that's a zombie. Yeah. They want to feel what humans feel because they're disembodied. They never had a body. And so they in a moment of weakness, like drugs, alcohol.

his example of porn, any of those, they enter through the crown of the head and they get to feel for a moment human body emotions. Maybe we can just go to the next one. We can just roll right into the next. We'll just roll into the next. It's kind of the same.

It's continued on this thought. John, you seem like you have something you want to say. John's eyebrows are raised. Like, what is he talking about? And you listen to just his diction and he sounds super thoughtful and articulate. It's not thoughtful or articulate.

But then he's talking about this stuff, not like it's a problem. It's like, oh, yeah, demons entering the crown of your head. It's very, very matter of fact. But I mean, he's assimilated this as his belief system. Correct. Just full up, full stuff. And that's why I feel like these clips are important, because I think it shows it's not just, I think it's hard to stereotype people who may have similar beliefs to Brexton. You know, you could be sitting at church with people that maybe are thinking the same thing as him that you could perceive as, in your words, thoughtful or articulate, and they're still espousing these pretty extreme or what most of us would consider abnormal

beliefs or extreme. I shouldn't say normal or abnormal, but that's true. I do want to say, you know, again, this Praxton interview is two hours long. I do recommend it to people if you really want to delve into what he believes and like-minded people believe. But I do ask him, where do you talk about this? And he says, oh, it's a church in the hallway. You know the people that believe this. And so you're sharing books and you're exchanging books. And so he essentially says, we talk about this outside of Sunday school or it's not talked about and just like the basic church lessons. But yeah, there's a bunch of people that go to church and we all, we all believe this and we know who each other are and we share these things. And I don't mean to

perpetuate the false stereotype that there's an association or correlation between religious belief, spiritual belief, and intelligence. As Jonathan Haidt teaches us in the righteous mind, sometimes an advanced intellect allows you to employ confirmation bias and reasoning in a way that actually makes belief more likely and makes belief stronger. So there is not, in my view, a meaningful correlation between intelligence and supernatural beliefs. so sorry for phrasing it the way I did. That's interesting.

All right. Should we go to the next clip? All right. Okay. That's what I get from all the books. Now, not just these six books, back in the early 2000s, I was really into near-death experiences.

And so I went to the library and looked for every book on near-death experience. I didn't want it to be a religious book. I just wanted people to have it. And so I found, like, literally, 20, 30 books, and I read them all about that. And they all kind of said the same thing about evil spirits roaming amongst the earth and entering people and feeling the emotions and everything.

So when he wrote that, I'm like, yeah, I get that from a lot of people. Now, Chad and Lori, if they wanted to call them a zombie, I guess they're calling a zombie because an evil spirit entered their body. But they took a lot of because envisioned the glory in other books. It was just for the moment, right? the moment of human weakness. One book, and it's escaping my mind, but it was a World War II pilot that died and had a vision.

He died in the hospital and had a guide and walked around, and he went to a bar and watched these evil spirits go through drunk men, through the crown of their head and got to feel the emotions of their body for a moment. So when he said that in visions of glory, I recognized it. So I like that stuff because I believe that stuff too. Okay. A lot of people.

Okay. And I read it differently. I felt like he was kind of implying that they were trying to stay in the body. You're right. They entered the crown of the head. They wanted to feel what this. Yeah, but they couldn't take forever. I guess.

They wanted to stay and kind of take over his body. I'm sure they do. And there's examples of that happening in the Bible a lot of evil spirits take on our bodies. So let me just ask you point blank. Minus the term zombies, which I think we both think is ridiculous. Do you believe in an evil spirit being able to take over a good person's body? If that person is allowing them to.

Yes. And how does one allow them to? When you're drunk. Yeah, that. Or you're playing with a Ouija board and inviting an. evil spirit in and letting it take over your body. I believe that. Yes, absolutely. Okay. And Lori believed it. Apparently, but they, yeah, they called it a zombie and I guess the zombie stayed there and they had to do away with the person like her children. Is there any thought

in your mind then that that could have happened actually to JJ and Tiley? No. No. And so, I mean, Well, what's the difference? What keeps somebody from believing that? Do you know what I believe in? Like, believing that and then other people like realizing, I mean, I agree with you. I'm like, thank you. Like, no, no. But why would Lori believe that?

I think the short answer to that is because she wanted to believe it. She wanted to believe it. She wanted to believe Chad was right. And she wanted to believe that this is all for a reason. and he's correct. I think she wanted to. Now, let me explain something. When you're a prepper like me and you're preparing for one event, the second coming of it, and then you spend hundreds and thousands of dollars preparing and having a plan and getting your family prepared and your friends prepared and you spend all this time and it consumes you and you do it day after day

after day. You're you are mentally like I'm prepared. I am ready. There's nothing more I can do. Now I want to be challenged. I want to go through it and do well in it. And I think Lori was in that position where she talked about it every day. She knew what was going on. She was prepared. Chad told her the future and what was going to happen. She knew it.

She had a key to the future and it was Chad. And he's telling her and she's been preparing and talking about it and telling everybody's coming, it's coming. And everybody around her is believing her that it's coming because Chad told me is coming. She wanted it so bad. So bad she wanted it that at that point, she's like, hi, Chad says this and I want it to happen. I wanted to happen. So I'm going to go past this envelope, go a little bit more and kind of help it along. I think that was right. Now, that's my opinion on it. I don't know if she thought that, but that explains to me how she did this. Her terrific act. I value your opinions and I understand that you're sharing opinions and thank you.

I guess my next question then is if she did that and she chose to believe that because of the reasons you suggested, do these beliefs in evil spirits entering bodies become dangerous? What do you mean to become dangerous? What do you mean by that? Well, you seem to have a level head and I say to you, you know, are JJ and we're JJ and Tiley taken over by evil spirits and you smirking, you go absolutely not. You know, no, of course not. Lori wanted to believe that. But allegedly, she did want to believe that.

And that's what she claims happened, whether we believe her or not. So is that belief then, just to have that belief that an evil spirit can enter a good body, if they choose it by sinning, I think is what you're saying, is that a dangerous belief to have because not everyone is Braxton, not everyone is healthy like you and can roll your eyes and be like, of course it didn't enter my child's body. I love my child, but can everyone think like,

is this not an unhealthy belief that we read in Visions of Glory or these other book? So much to unpack. That's a lot. That was a long clip. I know. But I, yeah,

I think it was important. Thanks for pulling that. Of course. Super quick. Did he just acknowledge, the likelihood that that Tom Harrison plagiarized another MDE

and imported that bar spirit's narrative into visions of glory. Did I hear that right? You did hear that right. You did. And instead of it being a problem, he described that bug as a feature saying, well, I see multiple people who are receiving the same revelation. Did I get that right?

Yeah, I believe the book. I'm looking down here right now. It's called Return from tomorrow. Okay. Oh, that's Betty, is it Betty Eaddy? Return from tomorrow was a psychiatrist, allegedly. George Ritchie, published in 1978. And this person wrote me, said, yes, he enters a bar, and then the evil spirits go into the

crown of the head. So this person states the exact same thing. Wow. And I think we did remark last episode that part of the draw for these books for a lot of these people is the confirmation bias and the fact that they do agree on a lot of these things, which makes it attractive because it helps them confirm their own biases. Yeah, they love the plagiarizing because it just confirms that it's true, right? If more than one person is having this vision, they don't see it as plagiarizing. They see it as confirmation. They see it as a second, third, and fourth, and fifth witness of the same things being true.

I think that's why the websites like Evo, where people can go on and share their visions and their dreams and their thoughts. My family member took that as a confirmation in my mind. I'm like, well, one person reads something and then you start thinking about it, kind of like the pink elephant story, you start thinking about it. And then maybe you're going to have a dream about it. And then you post about it. And then somebody says, oh, my goodness, two or three or four people just like, you said, have posted the same thing. As an outsider, it seems, it seems simple what's going on.

But I think if you're wanting to fill confirmation for yourself, that these are real, I think if you keep maybe seeing different variations, but similar themes, I think that that would bolster your belief. That's validation. Right. A couple quick comments, if it's okay. Guy McDude writes, I've been drunk while playing with the Ouija board. Where is my evil spirit?

Well, it's like the crown of my head is open. Come on in. Who's to say you don't have an evil spirit in you? I think I know. According to Chad, Lori, and who knows? Maybe Brax, I don't know, you are evil right now. You are a 5.4 dark. Rebecca B.

I don't know if this is Rebecca Bibliateka, but she writes, I use Ouija boards for placements. That makes mealtime fun. Daisy May, I agree with this. She says Lauren is such a good interviewer. Yes, you are. Lauren is a good interviewer. Amen to that.

I can attest. I think so many of her, this isn't a one-off, this interview with Braxton. She has had the opportunity to interview many, many people in this group or these types of groups. And I've always been impressed, Lauren, that you, that you're able to be so professional and validating, yet you ask good questions, and I think you allow people to open up and feel safe, and I think that's really important. I think it was evident in this interview with Praxton.

Thank you. You're welcome. Lots of people saying, please like this episode. Please subscribe to these channels. Because it helps with the algorithms, it basically helps YouTube promote it. So thank you for reminding us. Really quickly, somebody writes,

he's kind of emotionless about the kids. I don't like to pick on people. It's just somebody's comment. He is. He was. He was throughout the whole interview. So I can concur. I felt that way.

Okay. Yeah. Any other reactions about, I guess he's family. Megan's over there being quiet. No, you're absolutely right. And I don't like to put family against family, so I'm not trying to do that.

And it's not, look, I don't harbor ill will towards my family members, but I think it is important to point out. I think it's part of the family culture. to minimize tragedy and to minimize difficult things. And that's part of the reason why we don't talk about things and we don't really hold people accountable in good, healthy ways.

And so, yeah, it's part of the family culture, unfortunately. And it's fair you asked her because I asked Braxton what he thought of Megan on his interview. So now we've come full circle. That's right. Really quickly, we've got a running theme here. Debbie writes, I need to make that placemat theme. my Thanksgiving table. Thanks for that.

And then I don't know if there's an answer to this, but Kelly asks, Kelly Contrell asks if Lori was excommunicated. I've always just assumed she had been. I can't imagine her not being excommunicated, but that is a rumor. And I think it's because we received confirmation with Chad's excommunication

because the state president's letter was leaked and posted and that hasn't happened with Lori Vallow thus there's this mystery I don't know if you know anything Megan I've just always assumed she she has been because I can't imagine not being excommunicated at this point yeah it would be it would be a stretch although it's I suppose most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day data brokers are making billions pulling details about you from public records and the internet and then packaging and selling it usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere.

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Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. Pose it's possible that mental health concerns might be at play there somewhere. I don't know if bishops and state presidents take that into consideration, but I do know that her bishop was visiting her while she was in Rexburg, but prior to the trial. I don't know if that's still going on right now or not. I mean, she's the only one that's been convicted now at this point. She has been convicted of murdering JJ Tiley and conspiring to kill Tammy Daybill, three consecutive life sentences.

I just, you know, maybe she slipped through the cracks, but I have a hard time believing with the amount of attention that trial brought that she wouldn't be. So I assume she is. Yeah. Yeah, but I'd also be surprised. I mean, I'm not surprised that it hasn't been publicized in any way. I know, right? We're the leaks.

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So don't wait. Start having the most fun ever at chumbacasino.com. It's not like the Mormon church can't and hasn't advertised disciplinary councils or excommunications. It has Sam Young, me. It's talked about the Bundys. It's talked about lots of people. So the church absolutely could just dispel all doubt. And I hear that it's because they want to respect the confidentiality of the people involved.

But when these people have followings, and again, they did it with Tim Ballard. So like, which is it? You're respecting the confidentiality and the privacy? Or when somebody presents a public threat, you're going to mention them. So I wish we didn't have to guess is what I'm saying. You would think that with as much publicity as this trial got, that the church would want to publicize that they've excommunicated her, that this is not a part of our religion.

I think, though, that they're going with the trend of not mentioning her. They've wanted to be completely mute about her. They don't want to bring PR. With Tim Ballard, they had a relationship. They promoted him. They had no choice but to say, you know, just, yeah, the PR aspect. with Chad and Lori Deibel and I am upset about this. I've been very public about how upset I am about this,

but they have never commented, never mentioned it. I've always said we have nothing to do with this case. I have my opinions about that, but I think that's probably why they're never going to announce or excommunication because they've completely washed their hands of, wipe their hands of this. Okay. All right.

Any other comments about Brexit or should we move on, Mindy? Let's move on. Let's do it. So there are a lot of, there's a lot of speculation during the Lori and Chad trial, or Lori's only been on trial, but during the case as to whether or not, do they really believe this? Do they believe it? Or is it just a ruse to get rid of their children and spouses and collect insurance money

and go off? And so, and I think that's something that we have all talked about. I've landed on where, that I do believe that they truly believe. that the things that they were saying. I think that Chad and Lori both believed it. And a confirmation of that for me was when Lori, after she received her convictions, she had her sentencing hearing and it had been years since we had heard anything from Lori from her mouth during the entire trial. Other than maybe one word answers, she never spoke. And so it was, you know, we didn't know what she was thinking or she had had regrets about what had happened to Tiley and Jane.

JJ and Charles and Tammy. And so I think we were all kind of on the edge of our seats when she chose to spoke at her sentencing. And we decided to play this whole clip. Many of the viewers might have seen this already, but I think it illustrates where Lori's mindset is still. And you know, I want to say I'm looking forward to hearing this again because after everything we've talked about, I'm going to be listening with new ears.

So even if people have heard this, I, I think, you know, this is going to be interesting. Yeah. All right. Let's roll the clip. I would like to start by quoting John from the New Testament in the Bible. In John chapter 8, verse 7, Jesus says, He that is without sin among you, let him cast first cast a stone at her.

Then in verse 15, Jesus says, ye judge after the flesh i judge no man and yet if i judge my judgment is true jesus knows me and jesus understands me i mourn with all of you who mourn my children and tammy jesus christ knows the truth of what happened here that no one was murdered in this case. Accidental deaths happen. Suicides happen. Fatal side effects from medications happen. I have a different perspective in life

because in 2002, when I was pregnant with Tiley, I died in the hospital while in labor with her. They tried to stop my labor. They put me on the table and they put something in my IV, and I felt my spirit falling to the floor. I was standing near my pregnant body watching the doctors try to revive me, which took them a few minutes.

In that time, my sister Stacy was standing to my left. I turned to hug her and was surprised that her spirit was as tangible as a physical body because I knew I was in spirit and she was in spirit. She said she needed to show me some things and we went to heaven. I later returned to my body.

Because of this experience, I have access to heaven and the spirit world. Since then, I have had many communications from people now living in heaven, including my children, Tiley Ashland and Joshua Jackson, my sisters, Stacy and Lolly, my aunts and my uncles,

my grandparents. I have had many communications with Jesus Christ, the Savior of this world, and our heavenly parents. I've had many angelic visitors have come and communicated with me and manifested themselves to me. Because of these communications, I know for a fact that my children are happy and busy in the spirit world. Because of my communications with my friends, my friend Tammy Daybell, I know that she is also very happy and extremely busy. I have always mourned the loss of my loved ones, and I have lost many in this mortal world. However, I know more than most people. I know where they are now and what they're doing. I know how wonderful heaven is and I'm homesick for it every single day.

I know we all lived in heaven before we were born on earth and we were all adult spirits in the heavenly realm. We chose to come to earth as mortals. Heaven is more wonderful than you can possibly imagine. I do not fear death, but I look forward to it. I did not want to return to my body when I was out of it. Even though my son Colby, who I adored more than anything, was only six years old at the time, and I was about to give birth to this new baby girl that I wanted so badly.

I was a young mother, and you would think I wouldn't want to leave my children, but as I stood in heaven, I did not want to go back. I thought they would be fine without me, because I was peaceful and I was happy. And I was home. But then I was told by Jesus that I needed to go back and complete things that I had covenanted or promised to do before I was born. This caused me a lot of distress because I knew heaven was my real home.

And I only wanted to be there. I was free from pain, emotional and physical. But then I was shown how I would help my children and others in the future. So ultimately, I did agree. to go back to my body. Tiley has visited me. She is happy and very busy. Tiley is free now from all the pains of her life.

Tiley suffered horrible physical pain her whole life. I sat with Tiley in the hospital year after year after year while she screamed in pain when the morphine wasn't even enough to take away the pain of her pancreatitis. I sat there while she cried and I held back her hair while she threw up. And I am the only person on this earth who knows how much Tiley suffered in her life. She had pain every single day. She never felt good. Her body did not work right.

And I don't know if that was from complications from me dying while she was being born or something else. But she had a very difficult life. she was sexually abused by her own biological father since she was three years old and she was forced by family court to go visit him for 10 years against her will i fought for her in court i protected her i tried to protect her with my whole life i tried to protect her i worried about her every single day highly had to get her ged because she couldn't go to school every day because she never felt good. She felt sick. Nobody knows this because Tiley, like myself,

tries to put on a good front, tries to be a happy person, tries to have hope in life, tries to know that she's here for a purpose and that she has an eternal purpose to be on this earth. But I never stopped worrying about her. One of the times that Tiley came to me as a spirit after she died, she said, she commanded me and she said to me,

Stop worrying, Mom. We are fine. She knows how I worry and how I miss her. The first time JJ visited me after he passed away, he put his arm around me, and he said to me, he didn't do anything wrong, Mom. I love you, and I know you loved me every minute of my life. JJ Joshua Jackson was an adult spirit and he was very, very tall when you put his arm around me.

He is busy. He is engaged. He has jobs that he does there and he is happy where he is. His life was short, but JJ's life was meaningful. JJ was a wonderful person and touched the lives of everyone. and I adored him every minute of his life. My eternal friend Tammy Daybell has visited me on several occasions. She came to bring me peace and comfort, and I know that she is extremely busy helping her family, especially her children and grandchildren. And I have a great love for Tammy.

My beautiful children, Tiley Ashland and Joshua Jackson, rest safely this day in the arms of Jesus. my wonderful friend Tammy Daybell rest safely this day in the arms of Jesus and I look forward to the day when we are all reunited

and I too will rest with them in the arms of my Jesus Wow there's so much there I mean there's obviously well let me start Megan do you want to start I just

I'm remembering all of the feelings that came up for me the first time that I heard this statement from Lori and there is there's a lot to unpack. I just have to say like overwhelmingly the first emotion that overrides everything else is just anger. You know, there's so much there. But this was definitely a moment for me where I just don't, I don't recognize that person. I don't know who that is. That is not, that's not my cousin. That's not Lori. It's sad and it's tragic And I just I hate that she refers to

Tiling JJ in the present tense I hate that she refers to Tammy as her friend I hate that she You know Dairs us to cast a stone at her when you know None of us that I know of or are murders It's just Unbelievable to me but but I did really appreciate

Judge Boyce's comments after this where he said That she went down a religious rabbit hole and she's obviously still there. And I think that's the best way to encapsulate that entire statement. And people are going to be really busy in heaven. We learned that. Everyone's busy. We learned what they're up to.

Everyone's busy. I do think that's the Mormon thing. Everyone's busy. Everyone has a purpose is what I think that means. Everyone still matters. Everything continues on. Yeah, I want to point out, yeah, it's a very difficult listen. I do want to point out, I think one of the most shocking things,

When I was listening to it, oddly, I went to Rexburg for it, and then I ended up watching it from my hotel room because people were camping out the night before. And everyone wanted to see it. And I realized I'd have a better seat in the hotel room. So I remember watching it. And my jaw dropped. I remember when she kept referring to her dear friend Tammy Daybell. If you realize that she was the mistress in this relationship, you know, she was having an affair with Chad while he was married to Tammy. And then Tammy was murdered because she was.

Chad wanted to be with his mistress. It's just sort of this jaw-dropping moment. But then I think this is really important to point out. You know, she refers to her as an eternal friend at one point. And I do think there was this idea of spiritual polygamy. And I want to bring that up because that hits on the daybell case. It's in the Tim Ballard, what the Tim Ballard victims are saying. And, you know, I think that that might be a hint into her thinking that she's,

almost like a sister wife with Tammy Daybell referring to her as an eternal friend. It's bizarre. And, yeah, I can't even, I just, I can't even listen to her talk about loving her children. That makes me just want to. But I think the one thing we can learn is, and I think it's what we've all kind of known. We knew throughout the trial, like she believes this still. She believes this. This is what her defense kept hinting at.

She still believes this. And so if there was any doubt, here you go. One thing that was surprising to me that I don't believe we'd ever heard before was that she had, that she died when she was giving birth the tie leave. So now she's claiming her own near-death experience where she was given some medicine in her IV and she left her body. And I just found that interesting and convenient that she was able to tell that story at this

point to claim that she, you know, maybe this is her equivalent to like a ripped veil, you know, so that's what's allowing her to visit with the spirit version of Tiley and JJ, and she mentioned others, and Tammy. When I watched that the first time, like my heart pounded watching it just now, and I've watched that several times because I think it brought back the emotions, like flames, flames going out of my head, just in anger, especially about Tammy, just that she was as Laurie said or as Lauren said I'm so sorry I've called you going twice we're talking about Lori it's okay Lauren Matthias said um you know said that you know Lori Vallow is the mistress and

and was involved in this plot to to eliminate Tammy for the convenience of their you know adulterous affair and oh I just thought that was incredibly insensitive and I just my heart just went to all of the victims in their families, but particularly Tammy's family. That day, I just felt tender for her to have the audacity to call Tammy her dear eternal friend. That was just gross, and that was offensive to me. Yeah. Thank you for bringing up the near-death experience, because you're right, that was the point of that statement, and then it was at the beginning, and then it continued. What that, that matters. much because that's what we're discussing is this group of like-minded preppers, those that have the

most power have the near-death experiences. And the near-death experiences do something to them that not only do they have a vision during their near-death experience, they come back with sort of this ripped torn veil or they can see things that others cannot see. They become more prophetic at that moment. And so it just seems like the moment someone claims that near-death experience, that's that's when they become, yeah, a more prophetic voice in this community that we're seeing of these near-death experience visionary second coming preppers. I think John mentioned earlier, it's like a big power grab, right? Is that how you described it?

Just as an automatic way to gain power and to have people listen to you and trust your opinion. Yeah, and where does that idea come from? Visions of Glory, he just talks about as soon as you have that NDE, you start to have vision. you start to be able to have extra sensory powers. Maybe your body transforms into something immortal over time. You can walk through portals. You can pick up a toothbrush and see the universe expanded across the time and memorial. And I'm glad you guys shared all the beautiful things and the heartbreak you all shared

about how sad and outrageous this testimony was. testimony was, I do want to just drive it a little bit more home how much of this comes from Tom Harrison. You know, Megan, you just said that that wasn't your cousin, right? We've tried to cover on Mormon Stories podcast, you know, the impact of high-demand religions or cults. We brought on Stephen Hassan, and this isn't me calling the LDS Church of cult. Certainly, you're probably okay with me calling this sort of prepper theology cultish. If you're an Orthodox Mormon, hopefully you're okay with that. But what we learn about cults is that one of the things cults do is they indoctrinate you into assuming the cult personality.

It's an identity change. It's a personality change. And so what changed Lorry's personality. Now, I'm not saying she was without responsibility. I'm not saying she wasn't an adult. I'm not trying to take away that. But she's clearly under the trance or the spell of a series of teachings. And so I wrote down a bunch of the things I heard, and I just want, if you all don't mind, will you audibly confirm whether these are principles taught in visions of glory? Is that okay? Yes, true. So this idea of Jesus knowing and understanding of us. Yes. Right? Okay. Jesus, knowing the truth of what happened. It's almost like she's saying we had to do something that y'all wouldn't understand with the kids, but Jesus understands it.

Correct. Yes. Yes. Okay. How about this idea of near-death experiences? You've already talked about that. Obviously, that's central. How about being in spirit with her sister and the handshakes or the hugs or whatever, just that whole idea of spiritual communion, spirit to spirit. Correct. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Visions of glory. How about, how about being able to communicate with children, sisters, Jesus, heavenly parents, dead people. Ancestors. Yeah, that's very visions of glory. Okay. Angelic visitors. Very visions of glory. 100%. Okay. How about knowing that Tammy is happy and busy and that JJ and entirely are happy and busy and satisfied. Visions of glory.

Yeah. The idea that JJ was an adult spirit. That's visions of glory and that is so visions of glory. Let me just say that, that every single person that once they become a translated being, they hit about age 30, according to Tom Harrison's vision. So some people become younger, children grow up and you hit that age. And so JJ being tall is being a translated, resurrected being. That's so visions of glory.

And I was taught that growing up. That's Mormon doctrine and theology. You know, pretty much a lot of this is. Yeah. It's more fundamentalist. And that's why we call it neo-fundamentalist, because they're trying to bring back the doctrine that the church has tried to distance itself from. How about this idea that death is not a bad thing?

Death is great. Death is... I look forward to it. Yeah. Is that in visions of glory? Yeah. Well, let's go a little bit further than just death is great. Death is sometimes mandatory when you can't deliver people.

from an evil spirit and you can act as God and take their life from them. That is visions of glory and that is what happened here. And we played that clip last episode. The last episode we played that very damning, shocking clip and that is what Lori did to her children. Now she's saying, now she's saying this happened because they needed to move on. And they're happy. They delivered them. There's definitely a sense that like we did, we did them a favor.

Yes, we did a favor. that it was merciful. Correct. That we- Braxton implies that too in his interview with me. He states that he thinks that Lori, he said to me,

would you want your kids to live through the second coming? It's going to be terrible. I said, well, no. He goes, well, neither did Lori. So yeah, she delivered them. She helped them. Yeah, I'll just summarize. It's almost as if Tom Harrison wrote that talk for her.

Yes. I mean, in my mind, It's his theology. Yeah. Yeah. It is. It's a summary of almost everything that was in visions of glory. Yeah.

So that's what's happened to your cousin. That's what's happened to her personality. She's been taken over by a mind virus. Yes. Right? Yeah. And I do want to definitely make sure that we say at no point ever in the history of Lori, Noreen Cox,

Did she ever say she had a near-death experience? Summer confirmed that. Adam confirmed that. Her living siblings both said that never happened. And I can guarantee you that if that had happened, she would have shouted it from the rooftops. That would have been a theme of discussion in our family forever until the end of time if that had actually happened.

And I mean, you're laughing, but I'm not kidding. I believe you. I believe you. A hundred percent. And then what probably would have happened after that is that Barry probably would have co-opted and made it his own and then talked like it was his, you know, because he was the spiritual giant, you know. So it's just, you know, it's important to say that she never talked about that before,

even when she was reading the book. And even when she was telling, you know, her brother Adam that she was a translated being and she didn't need to eat anymore. And, you know, even after she met Chad and. she had never said anything about a near-death experience before. Yeah. And just, I think beliefs have consequences. They do.

100%. They do. Yeah. We're looking at it in that video, that clip. Yeah. I also just briefly want to say, too, that it's very telling where her psyche and her emotions are, that almost the last thing that she talks about is being absolved of guilt by the very people who she harmed. J.J. told her not, she didn't do anything wrong. Don't worry about me. Tiley said, don't worry about me. Tammy gave

her approval. You know, it was, you know, Lori has to believe that she was not complicit, that she was, she didn't have any responsibility in this because how, how do you wrap your mind around that otherwise? Well, according to visions of glory, she doesn't have any responsibility. So if she's following that theology, she's good as gold. Yeah. All right, Mindy. goodness. Okay, I want to move on to Eternal Core. Do you have anything else to say about Chad and Lori? I think we covered it well. I think we made the case. I think we made the case. All right. Okay, moving on. The next point we want to talk about is Eternal Core. An Eternal Core logo is here on your screen. Eternal Core exploring God-centric mental health. And this was

founded by Tom Harrison. I believe it was also co-founded by his friend, Ken Krogue, and we can talk about Ken in a minute. They would do podcasts together. They put on at least one conference, I think maybe two. And then you can find their videos on YouTube under Eternal Core. And at this point, I want to give a shout out to two Redditors that I drew heavily from for this part of the podcast, Chino Blanco on Reddit and Devils Ravioli. Thank you for your great work in compiling some of this information. It was very helpful. Those were impressive.

Yeah. Connecting the dots. Yes. Okay. So let's look at the photo of the group photo, John, from Eternal Corps. We talked about a few of these before. So we have Tom Harrison in the center. And then to the left, we have Tim Ballard.

And then to the far right on the center, we have Jody Hildebrandt. And there are some other notables in this photo. On the top row, there's a Lemma Harrington. He's a local sportscaster newsperson. I believe on the top, on the end, with the blonde hair, top left, is Jessica Mass from Operation Underground Railroad. And then down below, on the bottom far left is Kenneth Cope. And some people might know him as a pretty popular LDS singer and songwriter.

I'm not sure if he spoke. but I think he did some musical numbers at the concert, or excuse me, at the conference. And then just below Tom Harrison on the slight left, his name is Tyler Schwab, and he's also an employee of OUR, of Operation Underground Railroad, and he works in their aftercare. And then there's other people that those are just the connections that I was able to make. Oh, just to the right of Tom Harrison is a gentleman named Clay. Olson and he is behind the fight the new drug campaign, which has been very popular in Utah, which is talking about teaching teens about pornography usage.

So if there's anyone in the comment. Somebody messaged me and told me that the founder of Lifestar is also amongst these photos. Oh, really? I'm searching for it, but I think they may have withdrawn their message, maybe out of fear or maybe I just can't find it. Do you want to tell us what, tell everyone what Lifestar is? Yeah, Lifestar is just this network of sort of approved, faithful Orthodox LDS therapists that bishops would refer their members to

and in many instances pay for that therapy. So as I understand it, Jody Hilderbrand, for example, sort of owned a Lifestar franchise along the Wasatch Front. And that's how so many. Mormon bishops would channel clients to Jody and pay for the therapy that that was received. So and Lifestar's focus was on quote sex addiction. And it was basically treating normative masturbation and problematic pornography viewing. Is that?

Yeah, accurate. That's right. Do you want to play the video clip that shows, Tom Harrison talking about some of his methods of Mormon therapy. This is at that conference? Yes.

Yeah. Okay. At one of the Eternal Corps conferences. Okay. All right. This is a therapist, Tom Harrison now. Numerous times in my 41 years

of practice, I had a patient come through the door, and I had a plan already of what I was going to do, and that voice, said, stop. Don't do that. Do this. And that glorious ancestor or that glorious grandmother or that glorious individual who loves that person enough to make their way to my office said, stop it, Tom, that's not what they need. Do this instead. And when I did, miracles happened.

And I saw that clip on Reddit, and as someone with a PhD in psychology, I've been trained, you know, was trained for six years, super duper unethical, like any licensing board worth at salt would suspend his license for admitting that he basically performs religious, psychic-based, informed psychotherapeutic interventions where he basically, in his imagination, channels the dead loved ones of his clients and lets them dictate what the psychotherapeutic treatment should be super and ethical and outrageous yeah channeling ancestors big part of his book big part of Lori sentencing speech he heard i mean just full circle that's the channeling ancestors yeah yeah but then all this guy's leading Mormon therapy conferences

that he was, as he claims, he consulted Mormon Church general authorities for decades, supposedly as an expert on child abuse, so deeply disturbing that the church used this guy as a consultant. Again, deciding what missionary shouldn't be serving. Right now. Right now at this moment. So is he deciding this through their ancestors, or is he deciding this through case studies and science? Yeah. I don't know.

Yeah. I think many of us that have been thinking about this case and about Tom currently, separate from the book, but currently just in his current therapeutic practice, I think we've wondered what kind of a therapist has he been? You know, do we have stories out there about, you know, what kind of, if he's done things like this that we just saw in the video, where he's, is he telling his patients that he's channeling their dead ancestors? to help them.

Is he acting professionally? And then we have something that Lauren would like to share, somebody that counseled with Tom reached out to Lauren. Yes, I have now talked to a few patients of Tom Harrison. I think that this woman's experiences, she's told me that as long as I keep her anonymous at this moment, She is considering coming forward later with her name. But she's told me I can share a few things.

I'm not even going to share all of the things she's allowed me to share. I'm going to share some things that I find really important. So this is a patient of Tom Harrison for years. She started seeing Tom Harrison. And I want to say that I have vetted this individual. I know who they are. They're vetted. In other words, you find them to be credible.

I find them to be very credible. This is a very credible source. And yes. And I'm just going to say for legal reasons that these are allegations. We're not saying that they're true, but we're sharing them with every good reason to believe they could be. Correct. Yeah. This is a, I wouldn't just share any sources as a credible source.

This is a person that was a patient of Tom Harrison's for years. I have seen tax exchange between them, if that means anything to anyone too. So these are the points that I want to share today that she's allowing me to share. She started seeing him as a young adult. Tom referred to me and others, including someone close to me as having light and dark energy or being light and dark spirits. That is, I just need to repeat, that is Chad Daybell's rating scale. And we'll get into Tim Ballard there.

but I've also heard that Tom Harrison would help O-U-R know who was light and who was dark in the organization as a whole. So that goes with what else I'm hearing too. So Tom referred to me and others, including someone close to me as having light or dark energy or being light and dark spirits. He violated many boundaries in therapy, including those. I told you about specifically taking me to a temple as a young adult and considered me, he told me there in the temple that I I was one of his eternal wife's. Truthfully, so much of it was about spiritual connection and eternal marriage. And he frequently spoke of alternative, mostly not included in mainstream LDS doctor practices beliefs and ideas about the preexistence,

eternal polygamy, relationships with people in other states of existence, etc. So that's not all she told me I could share, but I think that's what matters, right? now is we're seeing a pattern in these beliefs that are being shared and taught and even now entering into therapy with his patients. One really quick. I found the text that I was referring to previously. I'm going to jump back to that Lifestar or sorry to the Eternal Core conference slide. And this is what a source writes.

I'm pretty sure the second man from the left on the top. Roe is one of the founders of Lifestar. Dan Gray is the name that this person is providing. This person says I worked for Lifestar in Rexburg for a while. Nuts. Thankfully, I came to my senses. Thank you for your amazing work. So that's another name.

Dan Gray. Allegedly, we don't know if that's true. Mindy, where do we go next? Yeah, I think to follow up on some of Tom's patients and their experience that they've had with him, thank you, Lauren, for sharing that from your source. I did want to talk about Ken Krogue. He is a friend of Tom, and he helped to found the Eternal Core exploring God-centric mental health brand. So a little bit of background on Ken, he is a wealthy businessman who unfortunately was in a terrible automobile accident.

And he says that after his automobile accident, he really began to change his behavior, where he was just saying inappropriate things. and feeling tempted by pornography and some other things, which he said previously, that was new for him, that wasn't something that he had dealt with before and he was very distressed about it. He claims to have heard Tom Harrison's voice at some point. I don't recall if he said it was in a dream or a vision or something, but he just remembers hearing Tom's voice.

And he was talking to his friend, Rod, Meldrum, who you have... interviewed on this podcast. And Rod is behind the Book of Mormon evidence. And the Firm Expo that I attended. We'll get to that later. But yeah, he's important, Rod Beldrum. Lauren, we'll talk about that later. So Rod tells Tom, you need to, excuse me, tells Ken, you need to talk to my friend Tom. And so this next clip is where Ken talks about how he was introduced to Tom and how Tom helped him with this problem. all right

let's roll the clip I had been in the middle of this conflict between different groups of Latter-day Saints debating over things like where did the Book of Mormon happen and why is this why is that

and I had been in the middle of it thinking okay I'm supposed to help 54,000 young people learn how to use social media and if they get in the middle of these discussions it's going to be worse than if we didn't even bring I went back into my journal of a few weeks before the accident.

And I had written down, I don't know what to do. I can't figure out who's right. And my father blessed me with an open mind. Be really careful what you ask for. I was meeting with Tom. I said, Tom, why do I? And before I could say, he said, Ken, why do I? feel like I know you. I said, Tom, why do I know your voice? Tom's got a pretty distinctive voice.

He said, I don't know, but let's talk about it next week. And I said, and why am I having these crazy urges and temptations and appetites? I can't even slow them down. He says, well, let's talk next week. By the way, Tom excuses himself and goes to the restroom quite often. What I've learned is he's really going to turn to father and ask, how do I help this person? Linda, you've got an amazing. Linda, you've got an amazing husband. So I came back and he said, can I need to ask you, what's your calling in the LDS church? Why are you asking me that? What does that have to do with anything? No, just humor me. I said, well, two and a half weeks before this accident, I was asked to be the head of social media administering for the young single adults in Utah County, 30 stakes, 54,000 of them.

And he said, what's their greatest challenge? I said, without question, it's pornography. I said, oh, he said, Ken, you can't help what you don't know. And within a month, it was gone. It was utterly, completely, totally gone. And Tom was like my personal Obi-Wan, but it wasn't him, and he says it. He says he turned me to the force. He turned me upstairs to the Lord.

And ever since then, I'm really careful about asking for an open mind or anything else. So I think he's implying that he asked for an open mind. he has this new calling as the director of social media ministering over 54,000 young single adults. And then after his accident, he develops this unusual urge to view pornography. And then Tom counsels him that you can't teach what you don't know. So to me that was implying that God gave him the urge to look at pornography. Am I reaching here? Is that kind of what everyone else got from that?

It was a very roundabout way to kind of get to that point. But I think that's what he was implying, that he asked for an open mind. He had this urge. And then he claims that Tom helped him through that, and that he didn't have that temptation anymore. I'm mainly offended by the abuse of the Star Wars clip. I mean, that's clearly out of bounds for someone like that to be referencing the Star Wars. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day.

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Yeah, a guru. It's sort of what I think we're concerned about that he is sort of a self-th proclaimed guru on so many things. He's a porn whisper. You say the porn whisper? Oh, goodness. I mean, I'm just, I'm just befuddled by how the Mormon church decides who should be leaders in the community, right?

Like somebody sarcastically wrote, this is James Morgan. He writes, he seems like a logical candidate to supervise young people on social media, L-L-L. But kind of more seriously, my friend Allison, hey, Allison, she writes, it's like going to your abuser for treatment of your abuse. Trauma on religious trauma, that is perpetually having fuel thrown on it. I have no idea if what I just said made sense, but it makes sense in my head. Like the church creates the problem, and then it presents.

It represents itself as the solution to the problem it's creating, and then it's putting forward completely inappropriate, unethical people as the leaders to resolve the problem, and they're part of making the problem worse and worse. I don't know. We call this the poison and the cure. Yeah. I think some people might take offense to calling the church poison, but I feel like it's fair in this situation where, or that's like they give you the,

illness and then the treatment for the illness, but it's just this never-ending cycle, right? What's hard is that the whole reason Natasha Helfer started the Mormon Mental Health Association is because there are faithful, active, competent Mormon mental health professionals that abide by their ethics and use science, evidence-based practice to do treatment. So these people exist as active, faithful believing Mormons. But for some reason, the church doesn't want to not them being the ones that lead these initiatives or are the mentors. Why are they picking these sketchy people? Or deciding again what missionaries are okay to go on mission mental health-wise,

you know. And can we talk about him excusing himself during therapy sessions several times to use the bathroom? And then he claims that he's praying or like the previous clip that you showed that he was calling on like ancestors. Yeah. That seems abnormal for your therapist to excuse. I don't even know what to say.

I have no comment to that. Because it's like I don't even know what to say that. It was very odd. And then just really quickly I'll just say running around, roaming around Google Don Gray, Lifestar images and that same photo came up. So it is Don Gray. Is it Dan or Don? I think it's Dan.

Dan Gray. Oh, on the image. On that image. Okay. Go ahead. All right. So the Eternal Core conference, we're kind of. carrying on with the people that we saw, a few of the people that we saw in that photo.

And so next, we're going to talk about Jody Hildebrandt. And Jody has been covered heavily over the last, how long has it been a month, month and a half, since the story broke with Ruby Frankie, eight passengers. Jody Hildebrandt is a Mormon therapist who John has interviewed, Jesse Hildebrandt, who is Jody's niece and also Adam Steed had an extensive interview where he was a patient of Jody's and had a lot of damage from her therapies. And I want to say this, your interview with Adam C. was taken down, but ours is up. Oh, that's a good point. No, ours is up. So you can see Adam Steed on Hidden True. I'll not see him, but hear him on hidden true crime.

We have two parts there. But yeah, sorry, go ahead. No, it's fine. I'm glad you mentioned that so people can go to hidden true crime and see your interview with Adam Steed. That's important. Jody is also behind some of these porn addiction programs that we've been talking about. But she has been arrested because two of Ruby Frankie, Ruby and Kevin Frankie's minor children were found at Jody Hildebrandt's home in Ivan's Utah and had been abused and malnourished and mistreated. and they escaped Jody Hilda Brown's home and ran to a neighbor. And subsequently, Jody and Ruby were both arrested and are still currently in jail, right? Do we have any updates on what's going on with their legal? I believe there was a hearing today, but I've been here today.

But as of last night, yeah, there was some interesting news. But let me just say as far as Joe, yeah, the children were in her care. they were tied up, they were bound with duct tape, they were tied, they had lacerations and wounds that were so deep that, you know, it brought tears to the people looking at these children. They were so skinny. They could tell they'd been starved. This was, this is no joke child abuse. What's also heartbreaking is Jesse came on Mormon stories to pretty much share. She went through the exact same thing. Oh, excuse me. Thank you. Thank you. Jesse came on. to share that. They went through the exact same thing. And, and so, so, so she, so she is behind bars. And this is just horrendous, horrendous abuse. It's made national, international news. Thank you for your coverage, John, with what Mormon stories has done with this, this horrendous story. But yes, so Jody Hildebrandt.

And Jody presented at the Eternal Corps conference in 2019. The topic of her main address was called how to choose personal responsibility to heal the human soul. That was her. She bluntly tells her clients, she admits in her presentation that she bluntly tells her clients that they are responsible for their depression. She claims to be able to discern if people are connected or disconnected or in truth or distortion is how she describes it,

just by looking at them. So that's a theme that we've heard all day long. How many times do we hear Tom Harrison say in his book, I just knew everything about the person just by, you know, immediately looking at them. By picking up their hairbrush. Yeah, it's just this theme. Okay, so let's look at the next. Oh, just not a surprise if you followed any of the Jody Hilda Brand coverage,

but she talks about these concepts that she's developed called Distortion and Truth and Connection. Oh, her brand is called Connections. with an X, C-O-N-E-X, I-O-N-S. And she talks about these concepts just constantly. It just seems like she's constantly bringing those up. And she claims that distortion is the root of root cause of anxiety and depression, which I think is harmful when you're dealing with mental health treatment. Extremely harmful.

Okay, so this next video clip is from a panel that Tom and Tom Harrison and Jody Hilda LeBrand are on together during the Eternal Core Conference of 2019. This normal that we all experience involves hard, just involves hard. So, you know, many of us have had experiences just today that have been hard and uncomfortable. And that's what's normal. And what we have to remember is that that's a part of this life experience. It's what creates your character. It's what creates the stretching and the growing and the developing.

is if you'll stay in heart. And this is where we need each other. This is where we need connection. You know, you're my new friend, Tom. And I want to be able to call Tom when I'm in hard and say, Tom, I'm in heart. And Tom, because he knows how to validate, Tom's going to say, Tudy, tell me about it. And I'm going to tell him what the heart is.

And then he's going to say, oh, my gosh, that makes so much sense. Or I understand. Or I was there yesterday. Or you can do it. He's going to validate me. And inside that validation, I think, feel the connection. And so then all of a sudden my hard becomes less hard. It doesn't mean that it goes away. And I don't need to stay in this place of, oh, I'm anxious or I'm depressed. That's like a state

of being. It's like a death sentence to stay in those two states. Instead, I call and I get some validation. And then Tom says to me, hey, Jody, you're ready? You're ready to hear your part in what's hard about this? And then because he loves me, he says, here's your part. You're responsible for. you're in distortion. You're saying to yourself, I can't do this. This is impossible. This shouldn't have happened.

How dare they? He points that out to me. And I can use my agency and say, okay, I choose to go into truth. And I'll tell you, it is instant that you come back into this very powerful connection. And I thank him, like, thank you for telling me the truth, Tom. That's what we're looking for.

That's what we're working towards. Normal is hard. Hard is normal. And that's what Eternal Corp. is. Eternal core is moving the whole field of psychology and psychiatry and social work and mental health, marriage and family counseling out of this distortion of we are all in competition with each other and my way's better than your way. If we cannot come together, how do we expect our clients to come together? If we can't be.

united how do we expect them to learn how to be united if we are not living in truth how can we expect them to live in truth that was not an audience member that was laughing during that entire presentation it's been a long wait a minute it's just me it was all cast four of us Only person laughing. All four of us. What in the world? Yeah. You know,

maybe just carry around a tape recorder and just record yourself and listen to it back and just see if there's something you might want to change your wording on. Oh, that's funny. But that was, that was, I had not seen that clip. I had not seen that clip. I hadn't either. I had not seen, clearly, none of us did except for making Mindy. Everybody's mad at me for laughing. I couldn't help it. Mindy, why did you choose that clip?

How dare? I didn't know that it was getting out that reaction. No, but it's been a long day in the Mormon stories podcast. That's true. We're a little punchy. We're a little bit punchy. But he just said distortion and truth. He just adopted Jody Hilda Brand's lingo. Right. That's what it's interesting. He kind of tied that in after she had been talking about it and talking about it. And then he ties it into his own remarks. I don't know if we should show the next book based on how things are going. Let me see if I can bring us back down a little bit.

I'm always good to be the downer. I'm just thinking about what Jody was saying and the way she was describing therapy. And of course, you saying that she openly told her clients that they were responsible for their own depression. And I'm just thinking about my own therapy journey and where I was mentally and emotionally so fragile when I first reached out for therapeutic help. And I'm just imagining if my therapist had said to me that I was responsible for my own depression and that it was basically my fault that I was depressed and that I could just choose to just snap out of it immediately if I would just choose to be in truth. I think that would have just made me sicker for a long time. Absolutely. And it's just so harmful.

I think any mental health professional out there would listen to that and say that's garbage. Agreed. All right. Should we, John? I'm good. Okay. I'm good. I'm good.

Okay. The next clip is where. Tom Harrison references his relationship with Neil A. Maxwell. So he brings him up again. This is a common theme for Tom. I think he uses that relationship or that past relationship often to give him a little bit higher stance or more credibility. So he just, he's on the same panel with, or I believe it's a different panel, but he's with Jody Hildebrandt, and he's talking about some advice that Neely Maxwell gave him. We think that sex. Oh, no.

Wrong clip is the wrong clip. Oh, no, don't play it. Oh, maybe I took out that other clip. Well, spoiler alert, the next clip is about sex. Do you want to summarize what? Yeah. So he just, he talked about just getting this, and it was just very solemn the way he spoke about how Neal A. Maxwell gave him advice about how in each of us we have our own universe.

And then if we can understand our own universe, then we can connect more deeply with others in their universe. That was the, that was the gist of it. So it was more for the Neely Maxwell connection than anything for him to mention that. Is this the clip? Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Thank you, John. Okay. Let's go back. And said, Tom. Yep. Within us, we have our own universes.

And first, we need to deal with this universe, understand it completely, before we can understand the broader universe. May we understand our own universe? May we understand, at a higher level, these God-given bodies that are ours. And I think that that clip is interesting because he's obviously talking very seriously. The universe reference is talking about, I believe, about getting to know our own intimacy and our own sexuality because this was given in the couples and intimacy panel.

So he's referencing Neely Maxwell and he's talking about the advice. that was given to him and how we can be better intimate partners if we can understand each other. And I'm remembering one of the reasons that I chose this clip is because in the very same panel, he makes this joke that we're going to see next. And it just, it seemed just so bizarre and out of place considering the clip that we just saw about the advice from Neely Maxwell. So you can do the next little clip, John. And that was Jody sitting next to him to you with that.

That's Jody. Yeah, Jody's with him on this entire panel. fascinating too. Yep. So now we can have the sex clue. Okay. We think that sex is only this six inch

square on the human body. And I'm exaggerating with six inches, okay? No pun intended. That's not a pun. That wasn't a pun. It's not a pun. And it's just bizarre

and inappropriate, in my opinion, to make a joke like that in that setting. while at the same time talking about advice that Nilea Maxwell is giving them. I wasn't expecting that. Yeah. Yeah, I wasn't. Big surprise.

Trying to line up the audience, I didn't make one snicker. There was not one snickers. It's not really funny. It's just weird and wrong. And I think there was a delay and then you see Jolie Hilda Brown kind of do this furrowed eyebrow like, look at this uncomfortable. She's like distortion. No, that's funny, Lauren.

Did he just say what he thought he said? All right. Should we move on? Any other thoughts about Jody? Okay. All right. Next up is Tim Ballard in Operation Underground. Actually, I will make one comment. I haven't answered my own question. Why has the church used such an ethical therapist as its referred therapist and as its trainers and spokespeople? It's because the field of science-based mental health has matured to be in contradiction to, core Mormon doctrine. So, you know, the mental health field would say that same-sex love, same-sex marriage, same-sex attraction is natural, it's not a choice, it can't be fixed, and that the best outcomes for LGBTQ individuals is to find the love that fulfills them

and engage and committed love. Every single, every single therapist professional association is going to affirm that. So any ethical therapist that follows and has allegiance to their ethics is going to, by definition, be out of alignment with Mormon Church's core doctrine and theology. So there, chop off all those ethical therapists that the church can't refer people to if they want to refer their members to people that tell the party line. Same thing with masturbation. Pediatric Association, American Medical Association, American Psychiatric, psychological, all the different associations are going to say that masturbation is healthy, normative behavior. And that's the first thing that got Natasha Helfer in trouble, with LDS Social Services, with her local bishop and state president,

as she was saying, we need to stop pathologizing masturbation because it's healthy and normal. And to pathologize it is causing more harm than otherwise what happened. And of course, she gets yanked off the therapy therapist recommendation list and has to build up her own clientele separately from that. So I'm going to answer my own questions. the church picks unethical, harmful therapists like Jody, like Tom, because they're the only ones that will tell the party line against the ethics of their own professional associations. Yeah, and I want to mention as well, I did some of this research for my book, so I'm not a mental health professional.

but I do know that there is no diagnosis of sex addiction in the DSM. It just isn't there. And most mental health professionals agree that addiction is not specific to sex. And so the entire, you know, church addiction recovery program then becomes problematic because it's really based on that premise. And so if it's not supported by mental health professionals, then they have to necessarily employ people who will continue to perpetuate the idea that you have a sex addiction if you masturbate. And that sexual addiction is a huge problem.

And I think we saw that in the Adam Paul Steed interview and his comments about Jody's therapy practices, is that she basically classifies everyone as an addict. And, you know, regardless of whether it fits the diagnosis. criteria for addiction. She just labels everyone as an addict, and then that guarantees that they have to be in therapy with her. Yeah, and we also just can't put all the blame on Jody Hildebrand or Tom Harrison. The Mormon Church imported the Alcoholics Anonymous whole program into its faux mental health services, I don't know, around 2009, 2010. That's my memory, and started these addiction and recovery groups within Mormon wards and Mormon stakes.

And it was not to treat alcoholism. It was not to treat meth. It was not to treat any heroin opiates. It was to treat sex addiction. And when it said sex addiction, of course there were, it was an occasional, you know, pedophile in there or something of that nature. But the vast majority of people referred to these addiction and recovery groups weren't people that we're masturbating and looking at porn 7, 8, 9 hours a day, it would often be somebody that was masturbating and looking at porn for 20 minutes

once every 3 to 4 weeks. And they were literally the ones being characterized as addicts. And this is not just Jody Hildebrand. It's system-wide for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterty Saints to this day. That's problematic. Yeah. We're good. All right.

All right. Moving on, we've got Tim Ballard and Operation Underground Railroad. And I think it's an interesting thing to note that we've mentioned previously that we've been talking about doing this episode, talking about visions of glory and Tom Harrison for a while. And it's just, I wasn't aware of the association, the close association that Tom Harrison had with Tim Ballard and Operation Underground Railroad until just recently. So it was just so interesting that that news is just. come out in the last few weeks. And then we were already planning on talking about this. So, of course, we need to add this to the discussion. At some point, Tom left his private practice to become a chief consultant for Operation Underground Railroad. And in this next video clip, we have,

and a shout out to Crescia Easton. Crescia is the aunt of J.J. Vallow. And she has prepared some information about the connections between Tom Harrison and some of these groups. And she prepared this video clip where Tim Ballard is describing his feelings about Tom Harrison and how he can be helpful in Operation Underground Road. And her YouTube channel is difficult to research. Oh, thank you, Lauren. That's correct. So I wanted to do my own research on it, and I found a brain specialist,

one of the people that helps us heal the brain of the children who have been traumatized. His name's Tom Harrison. That's a short clip, but it's interesting that Tim Beller described him as a brain specialist. Can I just say that would be a neurologist? That's what a brain specialist is not like a master's in social work kind of dude. Can I just say that? Right. Right. And that he's helping to. Does you have a PhD or a master's in social work?

Masters. Yeah. No, just helping to heal the brain of children who have been traumatized. Get a neuropsychology degree in his spare time. It's just, oh, okay. It's not on LinkedIn. All right. Go ahead and I'll.

Oh, no, go ahead with your thought. Well, I think you're about to maybe talk about it, so I don't want to jump. Oh, the next thing, just the next point is in these new documents that we've, that we've been, that we've been able to view about the civil cases that have come against Tim Ballard. We referenced this previously, but we will review it. Tim claims that Tom had a vision, that Tim would be a U.S. Senator, the President of the United States, and ultimately the prophet of the LDS Church, to help usher in the Second Coming.

Do you want to put up that quote again from, this is from the victim. It's the previous one. previous quote um there it is okay sorry this is from the tim ballard lawsuit excerpt from victim statement hdt he also had told me to read this book it was called the visions of glory and that he had met with the man who wrote it his name was tom harrison and that tom had told him lots of visions that he had had had tim in them he said that tim would be a prophet of the lDS church one day that he would be president of the United States.

So Tom Harrison told Tim Ballard that he saw in a vision that Tim Ballard would be prophet of the LDS Church and president of the United States. Tom Harrison. According to HDT, one of the female victims. Yeah. Correct. Did you have something to add there, Lauren, or are we going to go? No, keep going.

Okay. Keep going. Okay. And then the next slide is from... Do you do the previous one? The one that had the yellow and the pink markings. Yeah, let's do that one. Okay. That's from the FOIAX, right?

Yeah. John, do you want to read that one? Yeah, sure. This is Liberty 89 Elder Ballard. I don't know what that means. Okay, so this is, this person is named Cherston. She is a former. Okay.

Chirsten Stockwell. I hope I'm pronouncing her name right. You did pronounce it right. Okay, she's a former Operation Underground Railroad employee. And this is from the Davis County case. that came about previously, and I think it was the cause for Tim Ballard to be ousted from Operation Underground Railroad earlier in this year. And she is, she is giving testimony about some of her interactions with this entity called Liberty

89, and that's what this slide talks about. From the Freedom of Information Act request that Vice News got and all of the journalists in Utah were able to get. Yeah, it's from this. All right. So here's what it says. Chirsten said Tim took her to a meeting in her official OUR work capacity to meet with people at Thanksgiving Point. The people at the meeting included Tom Harrison, Ken Krogue, Hugh Vale, Tim Ballard. Chirston said they claim to have visions and special intelligence of the Second Coming. Chirsten said that because she had shared some spiritual things and Tim found out about it, he, Tim, could share with her the more, quote, secret things that I'm Tim involved in.

Chirston said during this meeting, they spoke about Liberty 89, America being a fallenation and how it was Tim's calling to do these things with OUR and restoring America to the covenant. Chirston said, restoring America to the covenant was, quote, a big mission of Tim's, and he was called of God to do this. Chirston said Tim was very verbal about Elder Emerald Bollard, his involvement in and behind it, but Chirston said she didn't know if she believed that. Chirston also said Tim would say that I'm Russell Ballard is a part of Liberty 89.

Tim would tell us that, but Hugh was there and he was an employee, so it would be more employees than just Chirston. Right. So I just think that's just illustrating another connection between Tim Ballard, Tom Harrison, visionary talk, end of times talk. We're special. Yeah.

Elder Ballard's in the mix there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then we have the ketamine, the ketamine notes from last episode. Do you want to set that up one more time? Do we want to do that one again? Yeah.

And then I have a few other notes, too, that I can just read from my phone. Yes. Yes. Yes, that's the last of the session. I'll just summarize this ketamine thing. Basically, it's notes for my guest, the ketamine guide. Scribe. And it's basically just, you know, I can put it up on this slide.

People can pause it if they want. But he's basically mentioning... This is Tim Ballard that had a ketamine session and had somebody scribe for him. So these are Tim Ballard's thoughts. Yeah, and he basically is talking about Nephi and Tom Harrison and Angels. and mentions Tom Harrison. I think that's enough. Yeah, I think we've made that point.

Okay. And then there's one. Oh, go ahead. No, go ahead. No. What is that you just had that? Is that? Oh, I think that Megan added this slide.

Oh, perfect. Yeah, we don't have to, I mean. Go ahead, Lauren. I think we need to do the whole thing. Yeah. So I just want to point out, so the civil lawsuits came down. And we don't have slides for these. So the two civil lawsuits that we've already discussed, and these are some of the quotes from the victims and from the attorney about what Tim says to these alleged victims.

Ballard would claim to his female ruse partners that if his wife, Catherine, were to die, he would immediately marry them. Ballard told one of his victims that when his wife would question what Ballard was doing with these women, Ballard would tell his wife that his female partners kept falling in love with him and wanted to kill Catherine so that they could be together. I want to bring up that this is also a trend in Visions of Glory, in Chad Daybell, in many of the people who believe in multiple probation, they predict that their current wife is going to die or someone's trying to kill the wife or something is going to happen. and that they will marry a past wife, a past life wife, more from the civil lawsuit.

He went as far as saying that the individual was obsessed with him and that she wanted to marry him, be his wife when he was the president of the United States, and that she physically wanted to hurt Catherine. He told me that she was trying to put cookies on his doorstep to poison Catherine. He painted her out to be this crazy person who became obsessed with him and wanted to hurt Catherine. And now here we go. Some new pages. In quotes, never mentioned this to anyone.

No one will ever understand. This is for the greater good and the new covenant. We had to be married in past lives, he would say. This is Tim to one of the victims. Okay. So they were married now in a past life. hence, and it's for the greater good and the new covenant. And here's one more.

Another interesting finding was stumbling upon some of AA's notes. So this is actually the husband of AA, victim AA, learning. It's the second civil lawsuit. Correct. Thank you. Another interesting finding was stumbling upon some of AA's notes. One in particular was extremely disturbing, especially when I read it without the benefit of context.

The note was describing some sort of trance or spell Tim was under it while under the influence of ketamine. He was talking to Nephi, Tom Harrison, and others. He was talking about past lives and how he and AA were together in a past life, held captive together. He was saying that AA was an angel and chosen by Catherine to carry out these missions. So not only are we talking about past lives, which is Daybell, we're talking about, Catherine giving approval, which is, I think, in my opinion, spiritual polygamy, that Catherine's choosing these women. And that also goes with Lori Fallow Daybell, suggesting that she's an eternal friend with Tammy Daybell and pretty much telling these women that they were married in a past life.

I mean, never mind that he's talking to Nephi and Tom Harrison and others, but then he's talking about past lives and how he and A were together in a past life held captive. sound familiar. So I just want to point out those few moments. There are more in the civil lawsuit, but those are a few moments. Yeah. Yeah, I want to refer people to Carolyn Pearson's excellent book, The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy. Modern Mormons want to believe that the polygamy's behind us, but it's not. It's still in Doctrine and Covenant Section 132. It's never been retracted. The top two Mormon leaders in the world right now, Russell and Nelson and Dalai jokes both believe that they will be practicing polygamy in the afterlife. And these fundamentalists

and neo-fundamentalist beliefs of spiritual wives and even real polygamous wives in the here and now, you know, we interviewed yet last night, the daughter of Christopher Brett. Christopher Brett. She said on the podcast that he believes in plural marriage right now as the leader of a vow. That's what she reported. He owns the avow website, another voice of warning, which the southern Utah, or the southern poverty law center declares as a terrorist organization. Yeah. Yeah. But this polygamy thing is just still haunting us.

It is. Yeah. Really quick. Megan, you had included this statement from former OUR employees. Did this have a connection to Tom Harrison or visions of glory? No, I don't believe so. Well, I don't believe so. I think it was alleged.

that, you know, that Tim Ballard was using, you know, supernatural resources rather than actual intelligence on his operations. But it didn't mention Tom. Janet, the psychic. Right. Okay. Yeah, didn't mention Tom Harrison specifically. Okay.

But we all know that Tim Ballard paid a psychic, I think six figures to try and help him gather, quote, intelligence about these operations or jumps that they would do. and the one that I saw the one in Haiti where they're trying to find Gardy is just a joke because it's a fool's errand they don't find him and they spent hundreds of thousands

if not millions of dollars on a fake jump with great footage to not find the kid they went to see because the intelligence they were pursuing was from some housewife in Utah who was channeling Nephi through a psychic experience

yeah and I think what we've read in some of these documents as well, is that it was not just that one particular jump, but really the origin story of Operation Underground Railroad came to pass because this psychic told Tim Ballard,

oh, I know where this missing child is. This missing child has been sold into slavery. He's being trafficked. And that's sort of how the whole OUR movement got started, was on the advice of a psychic. Yeah.

there are actually two psychics mentioned in the in the documents the one that i think we've been talking about the most is janet russon but there's also a psychic name lorry that's also mentioned so okay we are going to next talk about um marise harker we hinted to him earlier and i felt like this was important to share this story because this case happened kind of during maybe Hildebrand and things were going on and it just didn't get a lot of press, but I think it's important and there is a connection. He also presented at Eternal Core and the video clip that we are going to play is a portion of his presentation at the Eternal Core conference, the same one that all the others have been on that we spoke about. He speaks about how treating satanic temptation

must be included in our therapeutic practices. So let's listen to a little bit of his speech and then we'll talk about the charges that have been brought against him. But what if we learned how to teach people to watch your chemical reactions and the high-speed satanic thoughts that enter your mind?

It's only as hard as hitting a 90-mile hour, curveball and baseball, but it can be trained. Okay? I'll just get down to my final conclusions here. Self-mastery is not just a matter of willpower and choice. There is an intelligent, strategic, destruction-oriented entities significantly and suddenly involved in both temptation and torment. This is not a new concept.

Our spiritual leaders have reminded us of this throughout all of history, across most cultures and religions. They just didn't give us a scientific explanation for how it works. We now have that. Studying our science of psychology while ignoring psychological, biochemical, satanic attacks, is like preparing our loved ones for a war that is only against ourselves. You're doing it to yourself. You're doing it to yourself that I call psychological civil war. Or against organic elements like trees and weather conditions.

It's just about your body. It's just about your body. No, it is not. We have a responsibility to understand and teach all factors that influence the psychological experience. Excluding spiritual influences on human psychology is like excluding the concepts of nature and nurture. It is irresponsible.

If we do not learn to become aware of satanic intrusive thoughts and chemical reactions that cause cognitive and if we do not, and if we do not become accurately trained to respond to such attacks with the necessary accuracy, speed, and strength, we are not fully equipped to acquire psychological self-mastery. We do know this solution. We do not have how to train people to do this. It can be taught. You do not have to live in a state of fear. it can be taught. So in your notes, if you want more information, there's several links there to finish the conversation since we've only had 30 minutes. Thank you. And there's Mary Sarker. Can I read the most recent article about Marie Sarker? Please, too.

Fox 13 now in Utah. This is September, this is September 19th, 2023 by Spencer Bert, Farmington, Utah, a therapist based in Davis County has been charged with abusing a vulnerable woman over the span of several years under the guise of providing her therapy. Maurice Wade Harker 54 was charged Tuesday with aggravated abuse of a vulnerable adult in kidnapping both second-degree felonies. According to the charging documents, Harker repeatedly abused a client of his between 2012 and 2021. The woman suffered serious injuries throughout this time and said she even thought she might die during one of the sessions. the woman said Harker used aggressive hands-on and even violent tactics claiming that he had to do so because she was possessed by a demon. And then there's a follow-up to that where he exposed the patient to

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