Hidden True Crime - What the Cameras Missed as Victims Faced Bryan Kohberger One Last Time - with Susan Hendricks

Episode Date: August 7, 2025

Lauren is here with Susan Hendricks, host of Headline Crime, and they dive into all the things, starting with what the cameras didn't show during Bryan Kohberger's sentencing. Subscribe to Susan here: https://www.youtube.com/@HeadlineCrimeSusan Visit http://cornbreadhemp.com/hidden and use code HIDDEN at checkout for 30% off your first order About Hidden True Crime: What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/hiddentruecrime Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Someone on Dpop wants what you've got. Start selling now. Dpop where taste recognizes taste. Hello, Hidden Jams. I am with a very special guest today, a friend of mine, Susan Hendrix. It's good to see you, Susan. Hello. Good to see, Lauren. Hey. Many might know Susan from her day's anchoring, HLN. And also, you were with CNN for many, many years, even appearing with Anderson Cooper. And now you are the host of your own YouTube channel, Headline Crimes with Susan Hendricks.

Go subscribe. We love having you in this space and what you bring. You covered the Richard Allen trial. That's where you and I met in Delphi, Indiana. and you covered Karen Reed, which I got to say, well done on that. After Delphi, John and I were like, we're not touching anything controversial for a while. And you were like heading. I'm like, I'm going in. I'm going in for a horse because I felt one way before I went. I felt another way after the fact, but there's a lot of vitri all around it. Yeah. So your opinion was changed.

That's interesting. Yeah. And thank you for that, you know, to show that opinions can be changed. I always go into a story saying, change my mind, change my mind, you know, let's see what happens. And I went into Delphi that way too. Like, let's find out. Let's see what's happening here. And we, you and I, and this is why I invited you on, we were just in Boise, Idaho together, attending the Brian Coburger sentencing. Although there's a story behind that. You, you stayed strong. I was covering so much at about 2 a.m. I gave up. And I said, I'm going back. Well, I wouldn't call it giving up because there was kind of a change of what we thought was a plan. We thought we were going to head over there around 3.34 a.m.

And then all of a sudden, we realized, oh, my gosh, it's 10 p.m. And people are lining up. We got to head there. And that changed everything. It made a very different. And you had already been in that courtroom. You had already been to a hearing and sitting right behind Cooper or right near him. So you had that experience of being in there.

and the hidden gems want to see you, and you could still comment about what you were seeing and not go in. But I thought from Atlanta, if I'm flying all the way here, I really don't have a choice. I'm going in. You're going in, exactly.

And, you know, I had flown from, I had flown from, I can't even keep track. I'd flown from Colorado. I was covering the James Craig trial. And then we were flying after to Phoenix, Arizona for the day bell sentencing. And so I was boom, boom, boom. And I sort of hit a wall.

But you're right. We showed up at about 10 p.m. Was it 10? I don't know. We were calling each other. I think it was like 10.30. We were ready to go. We're like, let's go.

There's no sleeping tonight. I showed up. You showed up. And then, yeah, at about 2 a.m., I was like, you know what? Yeah. I'm going to watch it. You're right. From, from, you know, my television set.

But you went in. And I want to, you were, you were on X and you were sharing what you were seeing in the courtroom. And I just want to go over that because some of the things that you were able to see in the courtroom that I couldn't, I think are really compelling. And I want to ask you what it was like being in that courtroom during that sentencing, hearing those victim impact statements, watching Brian Coburger and just the feeling in the room in general. I mean, can you take us there? Yeah. The line, it felt like 16 different stages. So at first it was across the street from the court asked that everyone was lining up. And you feel like as you, No, from Delphi. We lined up outside of Delphi. It was a month-long trial. And so I kind of knew that experience. I got chairs for this, realizing, oh, my gosh, it's going to start at 1030 a lot earlier. And I ran into Joel from surviving the survivor. I've been on a show a few times, but we grew up

about 15 minutes from each other and know the same places. And I texted him because I was watching his show right before I thought maybe, maybe I get a little sleep, maybe not show up at 3.30 with you guys. I texted and said once we thought, oh my gosh, we have to get there now. I said, you better come now because I heard on his show. He said he's going to hit there around 3.34. And I turn around and there he is. He's like, I was already told, here I am. And you were like a soldier after Delphi.

You were like, trust me on this. I'm there. We're going. We're going. You're a warrior. Yes, it was 10.30 till we were able to move in front. But then you had these line leaders. It was just surreal.

and you almost, almost, could lose track of like, okay, this is why we're here. This is why we're going in. This is a big deal for all the family members, being able to speak their peace. So then we move in front. And I will say that like you, Lauren Joel has fans who are so devoted and they come up to him. And he's wearing sunglasses in a chair. One of his fans, a nice woman gave him a coat. So he's like, I'm just going to rest my eyes.

And then all the like core TV. and the local media, they're doing live shot after live shot, taking us as B-roll. I never thought I'd be B-roll lining up for the sentencing hearing. So we're in line. And it became surreal and he's a funny guy. It made it better than I see Brian Enten. I got to meet him. I feel like I know him as well.

And so it was seeing people that you know and then you see people that I have worked with who now work at Court TV. I saw them. And then finally were let in. And I will say it was right. run well in terms of they give you a ticket and the first, let's say, 50. I don't know exactly. People would get in. But then you go, you know what the doctors? You're in one waiting room, then another one? With the court, it was like across the street, then inside, then up to another

line, then inside of another room. And then we were finally able to get in. And this is zero sleep. But once you're in there, you realize, okay, you're focused. I was able to look over the first person I saw was Kaylee's father, Kayla Gonzalez. And it kind of, you're you're sitting there. And of course, Brian Koberger. And it was surreal to see him so close. The one thing I noticed was the relationship with his mother, the back and forth of a smile. And it was just, it went by fast, but slow in a way in terms of each person's kind of heartbreak. And they were kind of spilling it out to him. I don't think he was phased. I think he was with Kelly's father. and Kelly's sister.

But I don't think he doesn't have what we have, clearly. Empathy. No. Regret nothing. So. I don't see the typical emotion in him that I do with your average human being. I mean, nothing. And what about Dylan?

You tweeted, what do we say now? Tweeted X? I know. I always get that mixed up. And by the way, Lauren, going back to Delphi, that is what I was used to. I've been in courtrooms a few within. HLN and CNN in years past, but usually I was covering different trials like Casey, Anthony, Jody areas from the set. But it's very different when you're there. And every judge has different

rules for his or her courtroom. I was used to Delphi where it was very strict and no cameras in the courtroom. And there was some issues. And there she wanted to, and I don't mean with the case, I mean with the judge, her feelings maybe towards certain people and what things were said. And of course, with the crime scene photos leak. So it was different. Different to be. And she was very strict and she did not want it to turn into a circus. And so it turned into this like you can't make a false move where you're sitting and you know this.

Can't even have a mint or water. And so the judge after. Delphi, Indiana was something else. Yeah. In front of the jury, she was always pleasant. When I left, she said, I see that you're eating out there. Like you, I mean, a mint. So I was like this.

Dehydrated and about to pass out. but still there. You know, we can even have water. I would be dozing off because I didn't sleep the night before because we were trying to get in. And she'd be like, no sleeping in my courtroom. Exactly. I wouldn't sleep in your, it was just very strict. And I mean, absolutely no phones.

Every time I walked into court, I would leave it. No watches. No phones. Nothing. I mean, very small. Yeah. And I think it got to that point. It got to that point through various hearings and,

And if you're not that familiar, you should look because it was just- You wrote the book, you wrote the book on Delphi down the hill. So you have been there from the beginning where I sort of jumped on later to cover the trial. So you're saying if you understand the entire case, you sort of understand how this happened slowly but surely. And there was no love lost between the defense attorneys and Judge Gall and I don't, I mean in front of the Supreme Court, Indiana Supreme Court. So it was, but I will say, I thought overall, I know I'm jumping around here a lot, but I know

We jumped around. This is why we're friends. We jump around. My brain. It's going. Not evisive. Yeah. These are brains. Yeah. She was very respectful to the defense. So it didn't feel one-sided at all. But with no cameras, I could see while it kind of fueled the flames, if you will, of speculation and all of that. Well, this courtroom. So then I went to Lori Valo's trial, one of her many for a short time. A couple days and I saw you there. Well, you're the one who said. I don't know the case as much as you did. We covered it a bit at HLN, but it was so confusing to me. And because I watched your previous shows, I was able to kind of get a summary and understand it because it is so complicated. Convaluted. Yeah. And surreal.

And that judge, I thought, did an excellent job. And it's interesting to get, to have different takes and be in different courtrooms. And I thought, oh, my gosh, we can have a cell phone. This is amazing. The seats were cushioned? The feet seats were amazing. Well, it's just different. And of course, I was only there a few days.

And so with Brian Coburger, of course, I knew it would only be one day. But being able to have your phone with you, that was, and for me being able to be on X and kind of write down what I was witnessing and post that, it was, I enjoyed doing that because back to Delphi, of course, very different. We had handwritten notes. You had to leave. even then if you left at lunch and what have you. So I felt like it was best.

I felt like I was in real reporter mode going live, being able to kind of tweet as I'm in it instead of going home that night and being able to post immediate. And Dylan, you go back to Dylan, I felt that hers was so, and I said this before, you could feel her pain.

You could feel her trauma. You could feel her trauma. You could feel it. And it was, she's done obviously no interviews, and she's been blamed in the media at times. Like, why didn't they call the cops or criticized? But what she was talking about was everything out of her life was gone. And she mentioned this, and I'm paraphrasing, you took my home, my friends. She said that, my friends, my life, her feeling safe.

The person that she used to be, all of it wiped out because of him. And she called him an empty vessel and he is. No remorse. And she was able to stand there. And I believe it was the prosecutor or someone on the prosecution's team. I believe it was the lead prosecutor who sat kind of blocking her from Coburger because she didn't want to see him. So she wanted to just kind of talk and say how she felt. So I was tweeting about that.

And I did notice I was closest to Brian Coburger's mom and sister. That affected them the most. Out of everyone who stood up there, that did, saying, I don't know. What if he comes back? And what if this time I don't survive? That got them. That got them. As in they broke down or they were crying?

What were they doing? Crying. Crying. Tried of his mother. And how brave of them to go to that. I know. Yeah. And I can't.

I would have loved to know what they were thinking. And I wonder why. Did they feel safe with Brian? Because I remember one, Brian Goldberg, I remember one of the sisters during the investigation. I think it was a year ago that she said that she suspected, maybe it was him because of the odd behavior. So if they thought, if someone in that home thought he was capable of doing that,

were they afraid for their lives at one point? I don't know. I couldn't tell. You can't tell. You always kind of speculate. But he looked over. over and smiled every time there was one break and when he came back in kind of waving to her and looking over other than that um no real emotion what did you think watching because the hearing you

went to was that just a pretrial hearing because we still thought it was going to trial there's a pretrial hearing i was sitting very close to him and yeah it was in her facial expression not much no nothing it reminds me of chad dable you know chad dable was like that as well very little until later on where I felt like later on to the trial where his mass started to slip and he gave away some tells of like finally some emotion, but it wasn't good. It was anger. It was anger towards women testifying about his wife Tammy Debao and that Tammy was their friend and she was healthy. And that's where I felt like. So throughout this like weeks long trial with Chad Daybell in the exact same courthouse by the way, exact same courthouse that he had stayed sort of emotionless. Until weeks into this trial when women started testifying about being friends with his wife, you know, he was charged and convicted of killing his wife as well as two little children. And so that was the moment I thought, oh, he's showing some emotion and the emotion was anger and, you know, not able to control what these women were saying about his wife.

So, yeah. Hearing about... Both two defendants remind me of each other, though. You know, there's very emotionless, empty vessels is a good way. Yeah. To explain it. You know, the James Craig trial that I just covered, the dentist that has just been convicted of killing his wife with cyanide and arsenic over 10-day period. He showed a lot of emotion throughout the trial.

I don't believe him for a second. Right, right, right. But he cried and he showed tears and he showed sorrow. I don't believe it for a hot second. But it's just interesting sort of the different tells these. because of those give, but whereas though, you know, I would say Brian Koberger being an empty vessel is no better way to explain it. And it's, I guess we always try to understand the person that could do this to maybe say, oh, we could pinpoint someone that that would be able to. But motive, I don't ever think we always hear that.

Well, we didn't get to hear the motive. Number one, he could make it up, which they often do, if they even give you anything. Absolutely. It never makes sense of, oh, that makes sense of why he did that. Okay, so I guess we're looking as a society to say, like, this thing happened to him when he was 10, so therefore he did this when he was 40. But it's never like that. And it's just seeing the court documents and really understanding.

I know that the families heard a couple hours before the victim impact statements. They heard what was in kind of the brutality of it. It's so much worse than I thought. with the amount of times those women were stabbed at Xanacrono and Kelly Guitzalves. And just it's worse than I thought. It truly is a monster to be able to do that. And something snapped in him. And now, you know, I saw the latest documentary, which I thought was so well done.

And hearing Ethan's, they were triplets, hearing his brother, Hunter and Macy, Macy, the sister, saying, you know, I'm sick of hearing about it. So every time I say the killer's name, I think of him like, oh, I am too. I am too. But the analysis of him, it is still as a society shocking that that exists. And no wonder when I sat there and thought about it, no wonder the roommate didn't wake up immediately. It's college, first of all. And you wake up, your mind would never go to someone who's come in and done that in your college at his house, right? No one would. Especially in Moscow, Idaho. Yeah. Are you like me and have you been searching for a natural way to ease pain or discomfort? Again, I definitely have been. And for me, that search led to cornbread hemp's CBD gummies. As someone who struggles with intense migraines and have my whole life,

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That's cornbread hemp.com slash hidden and use code hidden. You know, one thing John always says, going back to the motive and you said he could lie about the motive or maybe he doesn't know is when John, my husband, the co-host assesses criminals, which is what he's done for decades. He will ask them, why. And that's the one question they can't answer. They don't often know why. They'll say, help me know why. You know, so the motive really does have to do with an analysis sometimes from outside sources to understand them because they can't tell you the motive sometimes. I don't know about Brian Cobur. I'm not putting words in his mouth or maybe he knows exactly why he did it. But I'm just saying in general, when you ask them, why did you do this? That's not an easy question for them to always answer.

I think about someone like Bundy who is, and we talk about him, I mean, how many documentaries have there but about the guy. But it was someone, I think it was the beginning of this where as a society, we thought that murderers look like monsters and they rarely do. And so he had his lottery and he was smart and people would say he's been looking charming. And so, but I think he was a master manipulator, a master manipulator. And doing that, he did an interview. He was on death road the day before he was put to death and everything in that that he says is a manipulation.

So with him, it's like, well. what he's never, ever going to tell us. You know, it's, it's never that easy. Yeah, there's this quote that the devil doesn't come dressed in a cape, a shiny horns. It comes, he comes dressed in everything you ever hoped for, right? Like, you can't see.

Scott Peterson, we saw that with. Yeah. And Casey Anthony, who I believe is guilty, found not guilty. But, and I don't know the full details there, I can't even imagine, but Jody Arias, too. I mean, no one. Lori Valo.

No one, Lori Valo. Chad Dave. Yes, there it is. You look at them on and say, well, why? But I think that rational human beings and with empathy and feelings will never really wrap our brain around it or understand. Right. And you know, and my husband, John, we do plan to do a series on Brian Koberger to try to understand the why to try to understand what's hidden. That'll be coming at a later date.

But you're exactly right. I think that as a society, we do wonder whether or not Brian can tell us himself. I think that we'll all certainly be wondering and trying to make sense of it. I wonder what your husband would say about, like, if they admit to this, I remember hearing through something I read or saw that the killer in Idaho was kind of thinking about self-harm. And is that just something they say? And because when they do what they do and project it outward, it's remember Becky Patty saying it's generational harm, grandkids I'll never have or great grandkids she'll never have. or it's just with the roommates, it's like what could have been in their lives they were so young and just the damage. But maybe that's what they want to do.

They, maybe it's internal hate that they want to project to everyone else. And Dylan completely will have PTSD. I'm sure Bethany probably does as well. And they'll have that for the rest of their lives. And this is going to affect, yeah, the entire trajectory of their lives. And so, yeah, it affects generations after generations. Absolutely. Right. The positive kind of summary or what was said during victim impact statements, I know you watched as well. I felt like they all came out there almost like a united front and saying, you don't break us. We're closer now. We've bonded together. And I felt that Kaylee's dad, Steve was saying that. Like, you're, and I'm paraphrasing, but you messed up. You're not a mastermind. Spare me with.

getting whatever degree you want because you messed up and were closer than ever. And we won't mention your name ever again. You're at a run in prison paraphrasing. But I believe that how they handled it, there's no kind of guidebook to get through the living hell they went through, but the way they kind of bonded together and will forever be tied together, just like Abby and Libby's families will forever be tied together. And just like Lori Valo's, the carnage she left, generation after generation. I mean, it's there. And I've seen how those victims have, something that's incredible that that Lori Vallo-Day Bell case is how these victims from all these different families have bonded together and stayed strong. You know, Tammy Daybell's family with Colby and the Woodcox

and J.G's family, it's incredible the strength they've shown. I wonder about the Woodcocks, what have you learned in terms of like, because that's what I've learned, whether through Paul Holes, who has told me through the years and helping solve Golden State killer, he said Susan, it's decades of victims, family members and kind of sometimes the toughest part is right after the trial. Yeah.

When the dust settles, when there's nothing else to do and the silence is deafening of who they took. We were actually with them earlier today, the Woodcock actually. Yeah, we were a couple of hours ago. They're staying strong. You know, they are trying to stay busy.

You know, they're loving on their grandkids and staying busy. But yeah, I think that after this, you know, for the last six years, their goal has been justice, right? And making sure that their little JJ and Tiley and Tammy and Charles. What was sentencing like? Did it affect her at all? Could you tell the sentencing of Lori Valor? I forgot to ask you. It did.

It did affect her. To have Lori representing herself. to have to listen to her in court argue. Well, think about it. Kay had to be cross-examined by the woman who killed her brother and grandson. Can you imagine? And what strength it takes to be able to not jump over. Yeah.

Think about that. Think about that. Like, not only do you know that this person killed your loved ones, now you have to talk to her again in front of. everyone and have her question you. She did such a good job, though, during the trial of Charles Vallow when she was cross-examined by Lori herself.

And Lori said, were you there? Did you see me kill Charles? Her brother, she said, no, but I sure saw a lot of evidence you did. And that was it. That was the mic drop. That was, yeah. I will say from what little I did see in that courtroom

that at first, She was able to, Lori Val, keep it together, if you could say that. That was the day of the enchiladas. I'm not saying by any means is she, a Rhodes Scholar. I'm just saying that she was able to, which was more frightening, kind of keep it together with the cross-examination thinking. And the way she talked to the judge, I thought he handled it so well. I think so, too.

He gave her enough kind of rope to hang herself with, but it was interesting to see just how, that she came back. She was decently coherent. I mean, she was she was angry and volatile and in the end it was like, oh my gosh, how many times are you going to try to get the judge dismissed? But she was coherent and she wasn't crazy. And she was definitely, you know, capable of representing herself. So yeah. Yeah. And I think that maybe we were expecting her to just be off her rocker.

But no, she's not. You know, despite believing. she believes. You know, I, so, and we're going to jump all over still because there's so much. I actually have a bunch of things.

I have it. I have notes here. I have so many things to talk to you about. But going back, before we move on from the Coburger courtroom, I just want to know. So I think it's really interesting to hear about, as someone that wasn't there,

these are my questions. So Brian Coburger's family, his dad wasn't there, his two sisters and his mom, they were very emotional during Dylan, victim impact statement. I don't know if both sisters were there. At first I thought it was both sisters.

I think it was just the one sister and not the sister that suspected maybe my brother could have done this. It was the other sister. But there was a woman next to him. It might have been a victim's advocate or a cousin. I don't know. She looked like the other sister. But yeah, there was kind of their row.

Okay. Okay. And then I saw the photo of Dylan just being held by her. mother after. That sort of filled the room. And was it just emotional for the rest of the time? Or how was the room? How are the reporters? How was everyone feeling? I'll tell you what I saw. So we're in. We're in and I'm on zero sleep. But it's this adrenaline of like, okay. And this is what this family has been waiting years for. And I've said this. And it is true that different family members heal differently. And some people wanted the trial. Some people were happy with it. There being a deal for Brian Coburger,

if you will. But I could tell that Steve Gonzalez, so he's sitting, I'm on the fourth row from the front when you walk in the court to the left side. And Steve was in the same row as me over there, about five people over. And I could see him and his knees bouncing up and down, up and down, up and down. And he's scrolling through his phone like this. And you could tell he was reading through what he was about to say. So his nerves were there. Like, okay. And it was just like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. And you could tell how tight that family was. Of course, the anger threw out.

And I understand it. If it was your son, if it was my son, my daughter, you kind of look over like, here it is. And who knows what he was thinking? This is my chance to confront this monster. So he's looking through that. And then I will say when it was Kaylee's brothers turned to speak. And in court at first, there was an announcement that they were,

particular order. It was the order in which charges were filed. So maybe the burglary won in breaking and entering. I'm not sure the order. But he was called up to go. And Olivia, Kaylee's sister, said he's not going to, I'll go instead because she was next after him. And I thought, ooh, did he get too nervous? What was he going to say? And he ended up speaking outside of court. So she went up there. And of course, everyone heard, you could hear a pin drop. But just the way I felt like she did so much research as to what would get. this guy. Like, again, paraphrasing, like, you're stupid, you're dirty, you're pathetic, you're fraud. There's nothing to you. No one thinks about you. Just everything that everyone

would want to say. And after that, I'm clapping. Everyone's clapping, as you know, watching it. Yeah, the people sort of clapping. You're clapping too, because you felt that then there was a 10-minute break. And so I get up and we all walk out. And I see Steve and I just said, first of all, I'm so sorry because I never met him. And he said, thank you. And I said, and your daughter, I said, your family, if there was a masterclass for victim impact statements, I had no sleep. I know I was probably making a fool of myself over talking to Steve Gonzalez, Gonzalez. But he said, thank you so much. I saw an elation. He hugged his daughter when she came out. And I saw like, okay, we got him. We got him because what do you do? You feel helpless when someone did what they did to your loved one.

So I felt good for that family. I truly did. And everyone gave different impact statements, as you saw. So then when Zana's aunt came up, I felt like the aunt and uncle came up together. I felt like there was a shift because she did say. And I believe it was the uncle that said, look at what you did to your family or the aunt. So it was kind. And then Brian Coburg's family, I could hear them cry again.

Like you destroyed them as well. but also when she said, I forgive you and I still have many questions. And we've all heard that, that if you don't forgive, it's like eating rat poison and expecting the other person to die. It can eat you from the inside out. So forgiveness is really about you handling what someone did to you and not really about the other person. Yeah. But still no emotion from him.

But, and I saw that. I remember Natalie Holloway and Natalie Holloway's mother, which she wanted so bad. badly to know every single she just wanted to know, wanted to know, wanted to know. And Yorne van der Sloat finally did. I think it was for money. He's so pathetic. So I think she had the questions and she wanted them answered. Well, I felt that too. Even though Zana's aunt said, I forgive you, I felt like she said, I have questions. Like, and maybe why was going to be in there, it would be interesting to hear what your husband thought. Like, you want to hear the details or maybe you're a family that doesn't want to hear anything because it's not going to bring the person back.

It's interesting. And you know who else did that was Libby's mother, Carrie, in her victim impact statement. She actually added that later because she gave me her victim impact statement to read because there were no cameras in the courtroom. She said here. And I noticed she even added that. But she's like, invite me to visit you. I will listen.

Tell me. Tell me. Help me understand. I remember that. Like that's something I think that many people, sometimes want. Like, help me understand, you know? Like, why or what sometimes they want to hear with Natalie Holloway's mom, Beth is her name said, like, what were her last words? Or did she know or did she feel pain? So maybe it's that because I can even put myself in their shoes. Maybe it is like,

I want to know they didn't suffer or I want to know if they said anything. It's sadly and sick. It's your line to your loved one is through the maniac. Like, that's what's frightening. I can't imagine. Yeah. That's a good point about Carrie. And they want to say, hey, please talk to me. And who knows if he will ever talk? So that stood out to me about the kind of shifted the feeling in the room.

Also, my parents were watching and they're not that familiar with the case as we are. But I don't think my mom was familiar at all because she said one of them was blonde. It reminded me of you. I'm like, don't you know this case? She didn't know it much. what my dad did say, he said, he's absolutely on drugs because there's no emotion. And I think that that's just who that person is, the killer. The empty vessel.

Yeah. And I can't understand it. Again, your dad can't understand it. It's got to be drugs. You're like, he's not getting drugs. Is he sedated? No, that's him. And I guess the question is were there signs?

So that as well. And then when the judge, I thought the judge did a great job of saying essentially, even though there was a plea deal, this guy's going to die in prison. So that is a death sentence, so to speak. And it was creepy hearing him say, I respectfully declined to make any statement. As we saw with Richard Allen, I don't know what we're expecting to hear. Except remember BTK, he went on and on and on and on. So you either want, you're the psychopath, sociopath, who wants to hear yourself talk or not. But that's one thing I did wonder, and I asked about, can these, you know, these people, someone like Brian Covert, does he suffer or not in prison? And I'm hoping it is a yes,

that they suffer. Because I feel like it's about, and you would know this more than me, control. Oh, yeah. And they lose that in prison. I'm hoping that they're able to kind of suffer. Who knows? Yeah. Yeah. I'm grateful for the plea deal. I'm grateful that he won't be able to hurt anybody else, that he will be put away for life, you know. And that hopefully we want to deal with the appeals that come with a death penalty case, you know, appeal after a pill and that he can just disappear from these victims' minds if that's what they want. We saw that with Scott Peterson with the member of the juror. I think it was juror number nine. It's like then he had a chance for a new trial and it keeps getting denied, but you never know.

And here he is again and we keep hearing about him. I know. I know. In the documentary, Ethan's dad said, if I could have jumped up and I would have, he was happy. that this wasn't going because we sat through Delphi. It was horrific what you see even with no cameras. I mean, it was so- Oh, it was horrific. Horrific. At my bank, I was literally getting pennies using wealthfront. Cheching, there's this much that I'm getting an interest and I didn't have to do anything. Clients like Angela earn up to 4.2% APY on their cash with the wealthfront cash account. Get started at wealthfront.com. Client was paid $1,000 for their testimonial, creating a conflict of interest. Outcomes vary. 3.3%. As of January 30th, 20, 26 is representative variable and

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Cash account offered by Wealthfront Brogeridge LLC member FINRA SIPC, not a bank. I'll never forget seeing, you know, and we saw the crime scene photos more than once. You know, they had to show them multiple times in Delphi, Indiana. Absolutely horrific. And then having to come home to my Airbnb after and explain, because, I was like, again, I took on the job of being the eyes and ears in the courtroom. I mean, so, so did you? And, like, say, okay, so I don't, I don't even want to, like, remember this.

Like, this is stuff. And it's so. Well, you do such a good job and you always have. But when, and it's really telling when Becky came up to you, she came up to me and said, who's that? It's that, Lauren? And I said, yes. And she said, I really like her.

She does a great job. She reports with fairness. Like, you say what you saw. And she, she was a big. fan of you. So I think that's telling when the family members are saying, hey, we really like Lauren. She's doing an excellent job. And I will say back in the days of Casey Anthony, Jody, Jody areas, cases weren't so divided. And there wasn't, and because of now, we have so many platforms to say how we feel, but there really is a lot of hate and vitriol surrounding. It's just different

than I could, and that's putting it mildly. We saw that in the lines outside of Carol. County waiting to get inside the courthouse. And by the way, if this is any, if this has anything about the families, because we were waiting for so long and you don't want to complain to the families, they're in there. It's like a second world once you're inside the court when we try to keep it from them. Well, Becky said to me, oh, it was Tara. It was Libby's aunt who said, is everybody sleeping out there and waiting? The freezing cold. I said, yeah. She goes, I'm bringing food. She brought pizza one night. I mean, people were so nice bringing the food in Delphi, Indiana. He joked with me. I even brought some food to the haters. And I go, why? She goes, what am I supposed to not? But they were just kind thinking about food. I will never forget that. They brought us waiting and you're right. You don't want to complain because of what we're going to. And it's completely like, we don't have to go. We're doing this because we feel it's important. But like, and what they're dealing with, you know, so you're not going to complain. But they recognized it and they brought us food. And other people brought food. I had one day people brought. People brought.

donuts, someone else brought cookies. Okay, we got to tell the donuts story. We got to tell the one day where Grayson, do you remember when we were all in line one morning and Grayson would, help me understand this. Because this is, I think, okay. Because I was new to Delphi. I was new. I didn't fully understand, like, all the dynamics

like you did, like you knew years of this, you know? Yeah. And for the hidden gems, for the hidden gems, if you've read Lord of the Flies in like seventh grade, think back to that? Because it was a subculture of nutsness. So, but going to take your place. And so there were people also. I had to learn this too. So I was at the three day hearing before the trial, months earlier. And I got to know murder sheet, which was so nice to meet them, Kevin and I and then I met Turbo and I met. So I met people with YouTube channels. And I loved. And I I will say that it's, I always say everyone can have a voice, but the negative side is everyone

can have a voice because there are people who are malicious towards the families. They come because they want to and they either, it's one of two things. They know what they're doing is wrong. They just want the clicks or that's what you even call it, the views. Or they don't know. And they just, I don't understand it. It's okay to come and I'm not saying you can't have an opinion, but when you see the evidence. So it was even the people who had been at a previous hearing that I didn't attend. There were plenty of hearings and there was a battle between the defense attorneys and the judge. And it was horrible. And the crime scene photos were leaked. I mean, you couldn't even, can you think of anything worse? So there were plenty of hearing. Well, there was a fight on the lawn outside of one of the

hearings. I believe it was in Fort Wayne. And they were not allowed, I think one of them, to go to any other hearing. And I mess up who's who and I don't even want to make enemies of them. Okay. You're teaching me more. I get this. I'm not even going to guess on certain people I have a mind of who this is. So one of them shows up because, and I'm getting commentary by friends that I met in line, not you guys. And I thought, oh, no, he's not supposed to be here. And I hadn't, I didn't know Grace in that well at this time. I knew she was an excellent note taker. Right. She had the colored pencils. And I knew she was awesome. And she's like, You need a hand warmer.

I was slapping those things at the end. I probably had like second degree burns on my cheeks from hand warmers. So he brought donuts. And Grace said, oh my gosh, donuts. Does anyone want a donut? And someone said, I believe it was terrible. It was it. People were yelling.

Don't eat the donuts. Don't eat the donuts. Don't eat the donuts. It's so nice. Yeah, it was, I don't even want to guess who it is because that, but it's don't eat the donuts. She's like, what? What, they're donuts.

And everyone, like someone grabbed them and tossed them like. Yeah, they threw them and they're like, don't eat it. This is when I think you and I started bonding because we were like, maybe we need more guidance with what's happening here because we've been like getting food. It's been so kind. And someone's like, we have donuts. Yeah.

And then Greece and grab the donuts and everything. I don't know. Would you trust it? I wouldn't. Like at CNN when we used to get donuts or food delivered because people would send food. The security tossed it right away. So I was like, don't eat the donuts. Everyone's like, don't eat the donuts.

And that was just my way. That was just one day, you know, and it's like, poisonous, what? Like, you know, but we've had so many kind people bringing. So we had plenty of food. It was so kind. But yeah, that one day. I met Grayson. And because we were in line for 30 days together, you really get to know someone.

I'm not talking in line for an hour. It was 50, sometimes 12 hours when it came down to like four hours, only four hours left. And you got to know all the bailiffs. and everyone who was inside a court and Jerry Holman, you know, of course, law enforcement there. But once we got in, it's like, okay, we're in. It was, and anything. Except for me, remember the one day I was waiting?

I camped overnight. I was in the line upstairs. I was second to get into the courtroom. And then all of a sudden I was like, I'm feeling queasy. I need to run to the bathroom. And I come back and the bailiff was like, out. No, out. He was just angry.

He's like, get out of the line. I'm like, she was. There. No. Get a bag of law. And then didn't he let you in, right? Did you say, come on? I was very kind. I was like, I respect you, sir. I'm sorry, sir. And I was just lucky there was one more seat left. But yeah, I almost stayed all night only to not get in. And I remember, no one could do anything. You're like, I'm sorry, but I got to go get my seat. And then something of an onion, Kevin, where it was, they got cut off with the line. Oh, and then two people, there were two seats. So there were empty seats. And I went out and I, He said, excuse me, there's two empty seats. And he goes, mind your own business. I'm like running back in.

Like, oh, my gosh, sorry. I remember you were hanging out with Nancy Grace one day. You and you and Nancy go way back. Love Nancy. She, so I get a call because I know producers that work for her just said, you know, Nancy wants to come tomorrow. I heard it's tough to get in. I said, well, it's Nancy Grace.

So she just has to be there at 740. I'll start lining up. What time do we start lining up? Was it two? I forget. It's a blur. But it would, it would vary. Like, we'd have to spend the night, some nights, and then other nights we'd just have to get there at two. And then we started having to get there the night before. It just depended on what era of the trial it was. It felt like, and I have a funny, funny story. The goalpost was always moving. The goalpost was always moving. It depends. Always. So that morning, I knew Nancy would come at 745 and here she comes.

And she has so many, obviously, fans. It was great having Nancy there, but it was kind of surreal. Then we walk in altogether through security. And I noticed, like, Tobe Les and B, former sheriff was like, double take. Everyone's doing the jurors, the bailiffs, everybody, not bailiffs, but everyone in court. And even Judge Goal, I saw. And you know how strict Judge Goal was. So I'm sitting next to Nancy and I hear her say because she had to do live shots from New York, the control room's waiting. And I did say, we have a morning break, usually around 11.

There's no set time. And then we could come back. And it was about 10, 15. and she said, I got to go. The control room's waiting. I said, they're about to break. I just made that up. I'm like, she's going to go on a break any second.

Like, no, no, don't leave. And she's like, I got to go. Her bags. And I'm like, oh, my God, I'm going to be kicked out. Oh, my gosh. But the judge didn't say anything. I could see it. She probably was a fan of Nancy's.

And you know, she's like it's Nancy Grace. Yes. Absolutely. So it was Kathy Shank. It was a huge fan of Nancy's. Kathy, who I think is the hero of the case. She is the hero of the case. So Kathy and Chink found the file of Richard Allen's, just to clarify for everyone that did fall in skates.

And by the way, did not take the $325,000 reward money that she put it back into the Abby and Libby Foundation, I believe, or the Abbey and Libby Memorial Park. But did not take a dime. It's the sweetest woman. And she did come up to me days prior and said, I used to watch you on HLN. So I know she was a band of Nancy because she watched it. but Nancy loved Kathy Shank. So then we were outside. It was windy.

It was surreal that day because Nancy was doing her show outside. But you know what I did see inside the courtroom? So Mike, who is Libby's grandfather and just a wonderful person, kind of the guy you want to go to when there's ever kind of a, I don't know. I feel like he's the guy that can make, that would say to you, everything's going to be all right. Let's calm down. That's the guy that he is in a sentence. And I saw him look over and he knows from CrimeCon, Nancy's. He's met her through the years.

And he even said to be like, you know, they have a good relationship, Nancy and Mike and the family. And so he said, Nancy. And so it was just a smile like, okay, the girls matter. And I'm just kind of summarizing that by the look on his face. That's what it said. Like Nancy's here. Yeah. Yeah.

Like that, it mattered to the families. And it was just a great moment because she was, she's like this, like you would picture. her kind of short, but this tyrant and says it how it is. And I said, I didn't want to stir the pot here, of court, because if you tell Nancy something, she's not letting it lie. And it was mentioned that there are people who still say root things about the family. It was ridiculous. And she said to me in court, which one, who? And I answered her to someone, which one, who? And she's right there so that that whole show was about what they were doing. And because she's all about justice and not for injustice. And she's for the good guy and not the bad guy. Remember, it doesn't matter,

male or female, taught mom she used to call Casey Anthony with Scott Peterson. I remember first watching her fill in for Larry King back in the day. And that's what she really knew that. Yeah, that's what she really is. Just yelling. And she was like no one else. Just yelling. Just yelling. I almost thought, I'm like, is that real? What is that? It was Nancy screaming. And so there's no one like her. And that. really is who she. There isn't anyone like her. Yeah. That's who she is as a person. That really is who she is. So I thought that was fantastic to have her there. I really do. Yeah, that was fun. I remember I came up and introduced myself too and I appreciate it. You said, she's one of the good ones. I was like, she's awesome.

She's awesome. Lauren's awesome. And Nancy's like, hello. Thanks for introducing me to Nancy that day. I was like, I've been on your show before, but you know, she has guests every, every day. So, you know, It's nerve-racking. She's probably a world-renowned journalist. You know, the world-renowned journalist, he doesn't remember. I'm like, I was on your show. It's nerve-wracking being on her show, isn't it? Because you're just kind of waiting for her to call on you.

But it is funny. The other day we did, she did a show on Coburger in the aftermath and saying, Susan, you were in the courtroom. And there was a defense attorney guest that she had on. And he was saying this. Look, it doesn't matter what the families think. Nothing matters. What matters is if he's going to take a plea deal.

And she just went like, what do you? mean they don't matter. They matter. Because the backstory of Nancy, if you don't know, and you probably know, was that she was engaged to be married and he was killed her fiance. And so she wouldn't have become a prosecutor, but it wasn't for that and just kind of, so she understands to, again, going back to what people understand it if you're in their shoes. So she said, what do you mean? And she thinks that. And who knows, I don't know what the rules are in terms of not rules, I guess the etiquette of the family, what I didn't like. And it's, who am I to say? But I thought that getting them to that when it was decided there would be a plea deal, it was

in an email to the family members, whether they agreed with it or not. And they had to get there quickly. So, but after the victim impact statements, going back to that, it's like, we're going to try to heal. Now, this was Maddie's stepfather who raised Maddie since she was two. I felt like all the family members. Going back to. Going back to her. Brian Coburger. Yeah, Coburger. And he did say, you didn't break us. This is, we're going to try to heal now.

Like, because if he destroys everyone else in their path and, oh, I did want to mention this with Maddie's father. He said he had addiction issues and Maddie kept him strong. And I remember calling my mom after and she said, I feel so bad for Maddie's father. I hope he's okay. And I feel like I'm so glad that was televised. And I did get a text from Kelsey. that day, and she said to me, and I'm going to find it because I think it's so poignant.

She said, if you... Kelsey is in Libby's sister. And she said to me, Delphi. If you can kind of give this message to Olivia, I would appreciate it. She said, there's something in my heart for sisters. Because I think that it really was a... And I saw Kim Goldman write something online about it. It's like, she said, I see you to all the victims, because I feel like everyone,

giving those victim impact statements, those who are in similar shoes, thought, okay, this is, this is our every day, whether it was the trauma of Dylan and the anger, I'm sure it's not just one feeling, it's everything. And they articulated it so well, so well. This is what she said. It was July 23rd. It was that Wednesday. If you meet any family members of my love, that sentencing hearing was tough to watch. I said, I was thinking about you today. I will. I spoke to Haley's dad in the hall. Stacey Chapin's not going to be here. She said that.

And she said, it was all heartbreaking, but you know, siblings of victims hold a special place in my heart. My heart hurts for all of them. So it's like the siblings of like a certain family dynamic. And Stacey Chapin said, imagine raising triplets. Ethan is a triplet. And she said with Hunter and Macy that she would notice awkward situations and say, oh, are you twins? And they would say, triplet, well, where's your other sibling? And then that conversation. So she said, and this was in the documentary, from now on they were going to say they were twins. Just little things of like, and what always stood out to me, Libby's grandmother, Becky said, you know, Susan, I feel like she's being erased. It's the little things. When the medical insurance card comes in the mail or dental insurance, and Libby's name is no longer on it, it's like that. And so. It's being erased. Right. And Stacey did say, you know,

what, my kids, she said it was hell on earth for months, but my kids deserve to have a life and a mom and dad who are here. So the siblings, imagine it's anachronodle with a sibling, a sister. Yes. So that's probably, Kelsey understands that, like being in the household without the sibling. Right. Well, and Libby was her best friend and they were, you know, yeah, she took her that day, you know, gave her a ride as a big sister should. and does, you know, guilt and all of that. And she did say, and you know this, that CrimeCon helped heal her. Before I switched to Wealthfront, my APY was probably 0.1. Once I switched to Ching, with the Wealthfront cash account, earn up to 4.2% APY on your cash. I can trust. Wellfront

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con or are you going I am going not to do anything special not to have a booth I'm going to meet so many of you but susan you are going and and and Becky patty is going Libby's grandmother and tell us about tell us about what your plans are there so Kevin Balfu started crime con with his brother with Red Seed Ventures years ago. It was 2017 was their first year. And that, of course, is when Abby and Libby were murdered. And Becky said to me, you know, Susan, we went because we knew they had a sketch of a person and they wanted to find the guy. And they didn't know, remember in the beginning? Was it a trucker who was driving through? They didn't know who it was. And this was in Indianapolis, just by chance, the first year of Crime Con. So they went,

It was brand new. So they just went there with Abby and Libby's stories. They had a booth and they handed out flyers. And then the next year, I believe it was in Nashville. And they were on stage and it was Jerry Holman and Anna, Abby's mom. And it was, who else was there? Yeah, Becky and Mike, if I'm saying it correctly, I don't think Tara was that first year. But ever since then, year after year, they would go to CrimeCon.

In 2019, it was in New Orleans. And that's when I did three reports or four report, long-form shows for HLN on Delphi. So I was there a lot. And Mike said, would you be on stage with us? It's in New Orleans and it's called CrimeCon. And I kind of tell the story of like, what? He's like, no, it's not like Comic-Con. No one gets stressed up.

You go there and it's great because my face is like, what's that? I know. People think of Comic-Con and then they're just really confused. Yeah. And it's a quick backstory. Kevin told me this, that they were working Red Seed Ventures, the production company. They're from Boston. They were working with Nancy to develop a podcast or a show.

And the brother or Kevin said, let's send her to all the crime conventions. And they said, they realized, well, there are none. Well, let's start one. And that was it. And so he said it was either going to be a colossal failure or a success. Fast forward. So on stage with me in New Orleans, it was Kim Riley, Indiana State Police. It was Mike, Becky, Diane, Eric.

Abby's grandparents. And it was talking all about, of course, the girls. And it had happened almost two years to the day. So they have a relationship with CrimeCon with Kevin and they were there every year. And people who attend there, if you haven't been for those watching and listening, if you haven't been, it really is such a comforting crowd, a crowd that it's hard to even put into words, but I know that Kelsey said it truly did save her life. She went there and she connected with women who truly felt what it was like to lose someone that they loved. And then she started speaking out and going on Twitter more and becoming an advocate for her sister. And again, she was only 18, very young when this happened. So it really helped save her. So this year,

it's full circle. And I remember Kevin saying to me, you know, Susan with Golden State Killer families, once someone was under arrest, we have. had kind of a panel and there was a standing ovation. It was Paul Holes and DeAngelo was finally in custody. He said, I really want that. Because in the book, Kevin, he's one of the chapters on crime kind. I interview him. And he does say, I truly want that for the families. I want that. So this is more of that of what they would want and the crowd who has supported them for so many years would come and say, okay, someone's in custody. The trial is over. Kind of a thank you to them. And I know I, I spoke to Anna and she said they've done so much for our family.

It's emotional support. So that's if you're, it's just they've supported each other, I think. And so seeing that firsthand, it'll be interesting to go and exciting to go for me. I'm glad that someone is in custody and it's a time to honor Abby and Libby and to say like, thank you for helping us. Because there were times, I was with the family a lot. People would come up and say, you know, I've been deep diving on the internet and trying to figure out who this could be. I mean, as you know, people are invested. They feel close to the family member. So it's kind of a

full circle moment for the families too. Well, I'm looking forward to watching that panel and being there to support you and all of the victims and everyone Adelphi. It is. How many years, you've been going for a while to CrimeCon? What are your, were your thoughts on it? I missed last year only because I missed last year. I had a ticket and then the- Was it? Day Bell verdict was coming out, and I just couldn't leave. I couldn't leave. Where was it? Nashville?

Was it in Nashville? Yeah, I didn't go either. I went to two years prior. I've never had a booth. I've never spoke. I just go. You don't have a booth? Your booth would be so successful.

I mean, and successful, I mean, they have something called, and one of my good friends at H.L.N. used to joke with me. He's like, podcast, Roe, want to take a stroll? He'd joke with me early on. So, but you would be, you would be. you should go with the booth. Hidden gems would come out of the woodwork to say hi to you. It's so much work. You have to reserve the booth and then decorate the booth and get all the booth together. I'm like, that's too much work. I just want to go. No, I haven't done it. Easy for me to say.

I'm like, do a booth. I don't know what. I'm like, you be in charge of it, Susan. We'll do it together. We'll do a joint booth. Yeah, you know, headline crime with Susan Hendricks and Hidden True Crime. But no, and I do want to share that to you, I can't speak enough at how grateful I am to have you in this space. I mean, you've always been in the crime space. You know, you are Susan Hendricks, but to have you on YouTube and to have you on TikTok and tell us actually where else you can. And I'm learning from you and Lauren, because Lauren, we kind of took a similar path. And being in, I was in a local news for several years, four and a half, five. And so you're learning. And I remember I started in Palm Springs and there were, it's funny because I met my husband and,

He does sports at CNN or did, and that's where I met him. But he would say to me, because you know how you have to jump around to different places? It's like who's going to hire you? And you'd mail like a VHS tape or whatever you're real, and you mail it to different news directors and hope that someone called you. That's how it was. And so, and you had agents, but you didn't really need a, you could get an agent or you could just send it on your own.

And so it was tough. It's like whoever decided to kind of show interest is where you went. And my first job, I made $17,000. They don't pay because they don't have to because people would do it back then for basically free. $19,000 a year for my first job. And then I shot up to like 20. So I'm in a black BBC and I was a reporter and I do live shots outside of methamphetamine labs. And so excited, sweating, beads of sweat with a tight suit on and thick eyebrows.

I have to put my tapes, my resume because it would. I did a one of my first stories was lawn bowling at a retirement home and I called my parents like I made it. I made it. I'm on TV. It was lawn bowling. And my questions were horrific. My questions are like, what's your strategy? How about what do you mean?

This isn't pro lawn bowling. So you look back and I'm terrible. I'm terrible. And then you just learn how to like anything, you learn how to do it. And to me it was like talking to nothing. Like, oh, going back to crime gone, I was nervous. I said yes to Mike. And then I panicked.

because public speaking, I'm terrible. I'm not just saying that it's the truth. I froze at my high school. I was sweating. I pretended to cry and ran off the stage. And that's the truth. And here is Susan Hendricks today. Who knew?

I was already on TV when I ran up the stage. It's just different public speaking. The good news about CrimeCon is I learned is that it's dark so you can't really see much. And now when it's about someone else, I'm okay. But me just standing right there. So you get used to it. You know that, Lauren, too, with local news. whatever news, you're, you get used to going live or talking to a camera. So it's,

it's very easy to do like anything. It's different than being in a crowd of people. That's what I'm like, I'm just going to sit here at home talking to you, right? But I will say that Lauren has helped me and I'm new to YouTube and I kind of, I'm chugging along barely. But Lauren has helped me by saying Susan. And you said this and it was true. Everything doesn't have to be perfect because that's what we were trained doing. Picture like, I don't know, it's like minor league baseball. It was fired. Yes.

And that's why you went to small markets. My market in Palm Swing is very small. My husband would make mistakes. There was a safe place to make mistakes. Here's an example. I'm standing there live and they're like, you're going to do a live tease. And nothing was ever really behind you at night, but you would say, nothing's happening now, but as you can see behind me, like you say earlier today, there was a fire.

And so the producers in my ear. we're going to do a live tease, we're going to come to you, and you're going to say this, this, this and this and this. And I'm like, what am I going to say? What? What? And I just froze. And I'm like, Susan Go.

And I just stood. It's deer in headlights. That was me. I had a deer in headlights. I'm so glad I'm not alone. One of my, they were like, go. Except I was at a breaking news scene. And they're like, K, Lorne, you just got to go live now.

And I was like, I don't know what to say. I pretended. Not really right then in my own mind. I guess I pretended. Well, it could have been technical difficulties. No, it wasn't. I was just standing them. And then they said, do you know how to anchor?

I said, kind of. Well, do you know how to edit? I said the basics. And then I learned how to edit. It took me an hour and 20 minutes to edit a one minute piece. Well, then you just kind of learned. So then they said, do you know how to anchor? Well, I put together this tape, I didn't know how to anchor.

Then I get hired because the competition, it is like that movie Anchorman. The competition was like, we're going to steal Susan from the number one channel. And they said, oh, it's for a weekend spot. But now we're going to put you on mornings. And it's with Gino Lamont, who's still there, who I love. And he was sarcastic. And he's been there for a while on gruff. And it was like going through boot camp next to Gino.

I was so nervous. And because, you know, when you're live, you're just used to it. Well, they're like Susan Mike Check, again in my black baby suit. And I said, three, two, one. And he's like, quiet, relax. I'm so nervous that someone that I interviewed in the field called up and said, once I got to CNN, fast forward years later, like, well, you stunk for the first six months. This guy was like 80.

I loved him. And he was like, you were, I mean, terrible. I'm like, I know. You do the small markets. You're allowed to make mistakes there. But once you get bigger, no mistakes. You better not make mistakes. You better not make.

And three hours on the air with Gino, I will say, he was so good that you kind of learn from who you're next to. And so I'm learning from you because you, it is about, you said, people just want to see. they want to talk to you and see you. It's not about, right. You were with me on the lunch lives. I was like, you were like, how do you do these lunch lives? I'm like, I just talk like I'm FaceTiming, my friends.

And I, and I talk you like, you do not have to be perfect anymore, Susan. Like, just be, Susan, make a mistake. Doing news cut ins and Andrew Cooper show, this is, I bring it up because I thought I had to be perfect with every single word. Like an example would be like, and there is Santa climbing down a rope. in a mall. You don't want to mess up any words. You don't want to say, you just want to be robotic,

but you get good at the robotness of it all. But that's why. So when they sent me to Delphi, it's different when you're out in the field and you could do it because you know with local news the next day it's over. People would come up to me like, whatever happened to so-and-so.

And you're like, what news day was that? It's the news cycle. It's the new cycle. Everything's the blur. Yeah. You're interviewing new people every day. There's a new story every day. Yeah, you're like, what?

I got to go live. I got to go live. And I said to Joel, who I think he used to be at Fox. Yeah, Fox News, but before he was there forever. The Survivor and the Survivor. You're glad we don't have to do 16 live shots. And he knows, like, we were with CNN or whoever. If I was with, like, KMIR and KSQ is in Palm Springs.

And it's funny because when I was covering. Also, you got to start in Palm Springs. What the heck? That's what my husband. husband says, you don't really pay your dues. I said, okay, it sounds glorious. And yes, they did have a celebrity golf tournament every year, Rancho Marash. That's all they have. I started in East Idaho. I was out with pneumonia in the snow. We were gang shootings in India. It was 137 degrees. I'm still on my baby suit with lipstick dripping off my face. And,

hello, I am not methamphetamine. I had to practice saying that. Methamphetamine. And there is no longer a home behind me. And wait, and this is what it looks like, behind me, back to you. You've come a long way. And then they'd say, even at CNN, HL, L'Iichol, and Michaelano's a good friend of mine still would be like, guess what you're talking about today? I mean, you had to be an expert, like immediately. And that's what I think, the Lori Val, I'm like, what?

How many people did she kill what's going on or what, what is happening? So many. Yeah. So if you can't do a deep dive and you don't really know what it's like to be there, you can't really connect because sometimes you're just like, wait, what is that story? But I will say a team matters, a team matters because this is a story that sticks out to me. The Anderson Cooper's team was excellent. They always were.

So I'm in a flash studio in Atlanta, they're in New York. And it was Sean Yates is his name. Love him. And he'd say, hey Hendricks. All right. So Anderson left because I would stay at all like one. in the morning and it's rare that they'd be breaking news out late, but just in case, get back to the flash of morning.

They're like, it's a fire. In San Diego, on the count of three, you're going to talk to the police, the fire chief. And there are people stuck in a warehouse. Go. And that was it. And they had to even get the images up, you know. So I'm glad that you have training out in the field. If you're not there and you don't like you with various members of Lori's family, like I could tell

how close you were when I was there at the train. trial, and I'm glad I got to see that. But that's how you develop trust. It's not just somebody covering the story who was, who's like me, Googling it. Like, wait a minute. So her brother's name is this. So, but it is interesting. Yeah, you need like a web of yarn to figure out this story. And it, there is something to be said, Avi, and I'm so grateful for so many years there at CNN. And KSQKMIR, oh, I once went live. I think it was the Karen retrial. And I was nervous. you're helping me with that too and graced i'm like what do i do i do i do i know and again i want to give you props like because truly let me really genuinely explain this after delphi we got so much

pushback because i know there's controversy to that case and a lot of people still think that richard allen is innocent where i believe he is guilty i i sat through all of the evidence and so do you but um it was really traumatizing actually to have the get the emails i got to get the vitriol that i got and so i was like i'm not doing i'm going to stick to date where everybody agrees that Lori should be put away forever. Like that's just safe. It's good. We can all agree to that.

I had no one. Peace out. I'm going to just go do Karen Reed. I'm like, oh, I had no idea. I really didn't know. And this is what happened. So Nightline,

I got to know. There's a producer there. And there's an anchor he does. Nightline. And they texted me. This is a legally blonde moment. Hey, are you at the Karen Reed trial?

And I said, yeah, I'm here for opening statements. you ask. And then I go, oh, no, scratch that. Lori Val. That was the day it was at law. And then I thought to myself, I should go to Karen Reed. People are talking about Karen Reed. I think she's guilty. I think that she, in my head, but I watched nothing. So who was I to say? I wouldn't say on the air. I thought she was guilty. I just in my head. And full disclosure, I don't, people have wondered, I genuinely don't know. I'm like you. I've never, I have not delved in. So I cannot give an opinion. Go ahead. And I didn't really feel like diving it. I remember people were watching it. And I was like,

What? Oh, I don't know what happened. I thought maybe she did it and didn't realize. So then I called Cheryl McCullum because I remember her talking to me about it. She said, girl, I love Cheryl. You got to watch. She's Nancy Grace's friend for 20 plus a year. She's a wonderful person. She's CSI. And she said, girl, you got to watch first trial. So, and I knew, you know why I wanted to go? I knew that there was a story in front of the courthouse with so many people rallying around Karen Reed. So I thought, oh, that's interesting. It's interesting. So I went there. I got to. to meet so many great people. And then I did watch trial one. And then I fall asleep to listening to some of the testimony. I know I need a life or an intervention. Then I went there and I watched

the entire trial. And my opinion went, oh my gosh. At first, I don't even know if she thought, well, now that I watched what I watched. So I don't believe that she did it. But I know that me saying that has so much pushback, the people who are really smart and I adore, think that she absolutely is 100% guilty, so don't come at me. If that's true, that's fine. At times, I'm like, can we have a space where people can hold different opinions? And just to hear you say, and just to hear you say, Susan, that your opinion change is beautiful. So many times people say that once you have an opinion, you can't change it? You change yours. First off, that's beautiful. Secondly, can we have a space in this world where people can hold different opinions and come to some different, and not want to

hurt one another when we have a different opinion? And the only thing I found disturbing is that, that like the people coming at me on X, like I thought you were one way. I thought you were a victim for the families in Delphine. You're just a fraud. You are in it for the fame and fortune. I'm like, fame and fortune. I'm just outside of the courtroom of Karen Reed. None of that makes sense to me.

I'm just doing TikToks, guys. I'm just doing. I know. Exactly. Like, what? So, but I understand. And there are very intelligent people that I like that believe she's unlawful. percent guilty. I don't think that. And I would, I would say to them, or if you're on the fence or you

don't know, it's where you have people on the fence, though, with this trial. But just watch the second trial. And if you still think she's guilty, then we, we could agree to, oh, my point was, what was disturbing is, why should I have one opinion for every case? I don't understand that. And by no, I felt horrible for John and his family. I truly did. But that, I was new to the case by no means am I on the stairs picketing? I wasn't. I was just covering it. So, but I understand. You're covering it. You're taking it in. Yeah. And, and, you know, there's a, it's very different than back in the day of CNN, the criticism, maybe we just didn't see it. And I think because times have changed and they're evolving. And you're able to have, Lauren, that back to what we were saying earlier,

the community that you have, that's unheard of. Like, that is, to me, is so gratifying that, like, And I've seen people come up to you and say, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. I watch you all the time and we love you. And that is, and it's true. Everything you do, what, a show a day, live, you work very hard at it and you care about it. And you can tell. You can tell. So I do have to get over the anchor here.

No, I'm kidding. Whatever. No, I need to be more like squeezing Hendricks. I'm like, you're. Oh, please. But I'm so. And I know we just keep complimenting each other, but this is true. meeting you guys. We're really, really friends. We're not just faking it. We're really friends. And so I loved

seeing you at Pohberger, like, oh my God, you guys are the best. So we're going to see each other at crime con. Yeah. You know, your friendship means a lot to me. I'm so glad we met. Yeah, we are very good friends. And again, go follow Susan at headline crime with Susan Hendricks. But you are also, let me just ask really quickly. That's on YouTube. Are you the same across the board on TikTok, Instagram, or whatever? Is that, is it headline crime with Susan Hendricks everywhere? I'm still TikTok it away. I'm learning.

I'm like not touching TikTok, but you're on TikTok. I know it from my daughter. Like, Carl Vaskin, remember that stuff? TikTok. I try TikTok for all. I'll get back on soon, but like, no, the reason I like it is because I figured out how to upload a 30 second da-da-da. So that's, but spare me.

Like, I don't even know my TikTok. Is there a handle? Susan Hendricks. I don't know if there's a handle. Imagine I'm like, news lady, sparkles three. Just made that up. Punch run. I don't know. Are you on TikTok? I'm on TikTok. I just need to post more. I was doing good for a while. Then TikTok got shut down for a day. Was it 24 hours, 48 hours? And I believe it was gone. The moment it was gone, I was one of those going, thank God. God, the TikTok era is over. So I deleted my app like that second.

You're like, leave one. Goodbye. And then it came right back. But you couldn't download the app for a while, right? That moment. And I was in that group of like, oh, crap. What did they do? Before I was even on there.

So I don't, I remember my daughter kept saying like, do you believe it? I'm like, oh, I don't know. But I wasn't even on there. I just got on there. I think it was during Karen Reed. Didn't you get on there during Delphi? It was during Delphi. And being able to kind of up show the bridge and that's where. But it's sometimes I won't do it for a while.

So don't put pressure on yourself that you have to do it all the time. I know we both sound old right now. We are. We help each other. Like we help each other. By the way, speaking of helping, I learned that your handle on TikTok is at Susan Hendrix 96. Which means nothing to me because I have no idea what 96 means. I don't recall making it. The year you were born.

I think someone did it for me and just picked it out. You're a 96 baby. You're just born in 96. Definitely. So not true. Just go with it. Yeah, I'm going with that. But I have no idea.

I didn't pick 96. I don't recall picking 96. Susan Hendricks 96. And I will be back. So I do have a TikTok. And I did. Good. TikTok.

Is that what we say? Do we say TikTok? I ticked. I talked. I talked. Oh my God. If I said to my daughter, I talked, she would get off the app immediately and delete it.

Luckily, luckily, I don't have a teenage daughter to tell me to, you know, be embarrassed, to embarrass. So you do enough, but I'll follow you on TikTok. I think I do. Yeah. And then every and then we need to get you more on YouTube. Are you back on YouTube? I know you got into TikTok for a while. Yeah.

As we tried to get you on YouTube. Are you back on YouTube? And I'm dedicated to a show a week. Okay. I didn't know that. Yes. Well, I've got to tune in then. I'll be tuning in.

Howard Bloom. I'm uploading that show. Is that even how to say it? uploading TikToking. So we'll see. But you're helping. You're helping. I'm crawling along.

I'm here. I am here for you. I am here. I got you. I still can't do a lunch live. It's baby steps. We need you. No, you did a lunch live.

You were very, very good at you. With you, with you, I could do it. Not alone. No, you were doing lunch lives. You were doing lunch lives at Karen Reed. No, it was recorded. Like I recorded and then I posted.

Oh, you were really funny. You had outtakes. Like when a, I liked it. When the van drove by and it was, Like there was music and then. Oh, that was good. That was good. I pictured myself in news there.

We couldn't do that. No way. I posted it probably as a reaction to local news. Exactly. You get to do what you couldn't do in news. It's like the behind the scenes. We're living on the edge. The real Susan Hendricks.

So you're doing great. We'll follow. I'll be tuning into your weekly show then. You have been some incredible interviews and I'm looking forward to watching your panel at CrimeCon. You might have another panel. It's in the works. It's in the works.

You're kind of your kind of crime con celebrity stuff. I'm going to be there with a cup in my hand, not sure what to do. You watch. I'm going to TikTok about it. I'm not kidding. Lauren is going to be swamped by her hidden gems. I'm not even joking. And so I'm going to document it.

Well, thanks. We'll do a lunch life together. Yeah, that'll be fun. And then we'll do one on your channel. So I can be like, go, Susan, you can do it. Let's do it. So if all of them have been recorded, you're going to do your first lunch life. Okay.

Deal. I'll be there for you. Okay. All right, Susan, thank you so much for joining us. This is really good. Thanks for bringing us into not just the courtroom, but also into a bit of your career, your background, and Delphi. Yeah.

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