Hidden True Crime - Will Lori Testify During Her Trial?! | Lauren Matthias x Annie Elise

Episode Date: April 6, 2025

Join Lauren and Annie Elise as they talk all things Lori Daybell and whether or not Lori will testify in her upcoming trial. You can find Annie's podcast on YouTube HERE: ‪@annieelise‬ or anywhere you listen to podcast episodes: Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast... Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6HdheEH... About Hidden True Crime: What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Quince uses premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, q-u-in-c-com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. Hello, hidden gems. I am with a very special guest today. I'm so excited to have Annie Elise, my friend, here with me today. with me today, I guess I mean split screen, split screen with me today. And not in the same room, but split screen with me today. And she is the host. I'm sure you know this of the Serial asleep,

seriolously podcast, as well as the YouTube channel Tend to Life. And I've been listening to you, Annie, for years. You do an excellent job. You are like the storyteller when it comes to true crime. And thank you for being here because I know that you and I have both. had a interest for a very long time. Ashley Banfield called it. She said more of like we've both been perplexed. I like that word. Perplexed for a very long time when it comes to Lori Valo Deba. And I definitely want to talk about her with you. Definitely. Before we get there, though, I do have some personal questions for you because I think that many of us, you are always telling us stories. But I want to hear a little bit about your story.

Like, have you always had a fascination, a morbid curiosity in crime or a fascination with why people do what they do or what is it about true crime that sort of gets you? Yeah. I mean, first and foremost, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to, like, talk with you again. I don't think we, now that I think about it, I don't think we've actually talked officially together since we were in, gosh, Where was that? Salt Lake that in October. Yeah, and we were talking about Lori. No, so I'm really excited.

But I first started getting into true crime when I was quite honestly probably way too young to even be watching it. But I was watching datelines, 20-20s, even 60 minutes. And my sister and I kind of got on true crime with each other. And for me, there were a couple of different reasons why I was fascinated with it. one was trying to understand why people did what they did and, you know, trying to see like how, not if you could ever relate to them, but just trying to understand what would make somebody do such horrific things. And then another piece of it was almost like the problem solving and strategic element of it. When I would watch these shows and documentaries and date lines and all of that, I would be like, I want to figure out how, like, can I solve it before they tell me what is going

down. Can I identify all of the red flags before they have the big aha moment? And so I just grew up watching true crime and being extremely fascinated. There were quite a few cases that stuck with me. The one that I always referenced, which I'm sure so many people can relate to, is Casey Anthony. I remember exactly where I was when that verdict came back. I remember how I felt. I remember I was so long ago that it was literally on a tube TV type style TV, not even a flat screen. And like, I just remember it so vividly. So then when I started entering into like this true crime world where I was talking about these cases, not just in the privacy of my own home or with my sister, I just really wanted to talk about those types of cases, the ones that really get under your skin that bother you that you feel like need more awareness, have questions that are unanswered and just focus on things where there's more conversation to be had and also maybe value to be had by talking about it and maybe evoking change or for people to think about things differently. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.

Well, and now I have to ask, you said, do you remember exactly what you were feeling when the Casey Anthony verdict came down? So what were you thinking and feeling back? Rage. Rage, complete rage. Like, honestly, I felt like my whole body got hot. And I was just seeing red everywhere and kind of just disbelief. Like, are you serious? Like, this is what the jury came back with.

How, like, how? How does somebody even think that there's a shadow of a doubt that she did this? and I just was in complete disbelief. Yeah. So fast forward years later, decades later, she shows up on TikTok. Did you feel the same rage when she even saw? Same feeling. It was like, yeah, it was like that feeling all over again, same rage.

And this now even more of like, you have the audacity to now come on TikTok and label yourself, brand yourself as a legal advocate. Are you like, be for real. Are you kidding me right now? She's just so unhinged. Yeah. You're like, you are the woman that gave me rage that makes me do. what I do today and here you are jumping on TikTok. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine. So, you know,

when you, when you started 10 to life, wasn't the daybell case, like one of the first cases you started with? There were many, I'm sure, but, but take me back to when you started and what cases you were covering. Yeah, Lori was the very first case that I did in a big way on my YouTube channel. And I remember, so it was 2020, and it was when the pandemic was going on. And that's what catapulted me into doing true crime, which is a story for a different day. But I remember being, I was living in New York at the time. And I remember every morning my routine, which this is going to make me sound so old. But I would watch Good Morning America, okay?

Every single morning. I'd say, I did it too. Yeah. I watched Good Morning America. And like, I remember seeing the case come across the screen. and it was when they had already fled to Hawaii at this point. And they were talking about how these kids were missing and how the mother wasn't speaking out and she wasn't sharing.

And I was like, something's weird here. Like, what do you mean? And now they're just casually walking in Hawaii. And it was the classic footage that everybody's familiar with. So then I decided to start looking into it. And when I learned that Chad Daybell was involved and that he's this, you know, who I believe is a cult leader and has all these insane theories and ideations and things like that, I was like, oh, this makes a lot more sense now.

Like, the writing is on the wall of what's going down here. So that was back when I was just doing 10 minute case recaps, which is why the name of my YouTube channel is 10 to life, because it was supposed to only be 10 minutes. And now it's like 60 to 90 to life. But, yeah, she was one of the very first cases. And I just kind of ripped into her, like, classic move.

You're falling in love with a cult leader because obviously, like, that's what people like you do. You're clearly a horrible mother. there's something shady going on here. And ever since then, I just kept digging in more and more. And it's almost like as I was researching it, things were unfolding simultaneously. And I just could not break away from it. I just wanted to know every single thing about it. You know, that takes me back to what I was feeling too. So it was before we knew each other. Who knew? You know, you in New York City, I was actually in Utah in St. George, the very city where Lori and Chad met. If only I knew and I could

have, you know, stopped it. But it was the same thing. I was a new mom and I was like, I was a new mom and I was at home and it was hard because I wasn't reporting anymore. And it came down and it was the pandemic. And I just started, it was like the first Facebook group I ever joined actually was a true crime Facebook group. I shouldn't say that. I joined groups, but like the first true crime Facebook group I'd ever joined was about the Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell case and I was the same way. I was like, what is going on? I remember seeing Kay Woodcock's, like, Facebook post saying somebody helped there to missing children. I, my brother was killed. And then all of us at a Brandon Brutrow shows up and he's like, someone tried to shoot me.

I'm like, what is happening? I know. It feels like a lifetime movie. But it's like this was real life and the fact that there were children involved in this. I think it struck a chord with everyone, especially mothers, because when you see them so casually not answering questions, evading questions. It's like, how is a mother can you just sit there and say like, you know what? I know where they are, but I'm not telling you. I'm not telling you. Meanwhile, grandparents are begging for their safe return. The public is it's on all these news channels and you're still remaining silent. It's like, how do you even sleep at night? I know. I know. I'll never forget to just, you know, I attended the trial. I know that you had

a correspondent there. I will never forget what I felt as I, heard about what happened to those two little children. I'll never forget it. And I remember just it was, yeah, we're mothers. It's just so hard to fathom for me. And I think that that's part of why I keep, I keep going with this case. I'm just so, I'm still to this day, five and a half years later is just unfathomable to me. I mean, I live with a psychologist and I still just have so many questions. I cannot, I cannot understand it. I want to say one thing too, you know, I just want to share this too, a thank you to you. I remember we had the memorial for JJ and Tiley actually and you, you donated a lot of money to make it beautiful and the flowers that

through your support. I just want you to know, gave a lot, it was a lot. I just want to say thank you for that too. Thank you. Random side note, but I'm remembering that. Yeah, no, you've been really, you've cared a lot from the very beginning. I think it's tough because like you and like so many people who have just been glued to this case from day one. It's like, it's almost like you're trying to understand the, you know, what you can't understand, something that doesn't make any sense. And that's why you are almost glued to it or at least me. It's like I'm just trying to make sense of it all, even still, even now that we know so much of what went on and the truth and what, you know, I still believe obviously like different things with Alex Cox and other, I don't know,

relationships, I guess you could say. But it's like you're just trying to make sense. of it all still. And somebody who can do that to their children, it doesn't make sense. And I think it's like you're constantly trying to search for an answer and a why and so that it'll click and you can move on. But there's nothing that will ever explain it. Well, and since you threw that out there, what do you believe about Alex Cox? Because he's, he's a bit of a mystery to me. I go back and forth. I, okay, here's, here's my hot take on it. I think that. I want to hear it. I think that Alex and Lori's relationship, it makes me super uncomfy, honestly. I think he was obviously like her henchman who did a lot of things at her direction and just took

orders from her so much so to kill as well. And to me, in order, there's something to be said about loyalty, especially between family members, loved ones, even good friends. But there's something about that dynamic that has just never like really sat well with me. and I'm not trying to imply that there was something, you know, more going on between the two of them. Nothing like that. I mean, it could be something Game of Thronesy. I don't know.

But like it gives me those vibes where it's like it's his blind loyalty. And almost like he's her puppy dog in a way. And then the fact that he died after the wedding and just kind of mysteriously, even though I believe they had said it was what natural causes. I feel like, no, he knew too much. She could have said something. He could have flipped. Like it's too much. of a coincidence to me at least. And what do I know? But it just doesn't look good. I agree with you.

You know, I have gone back and forth admittedly. If it was natural, I'll just say that is the biggest coincidence. It's almost like I just can't believe that it's coincidence. And I'm not someone that I don't know. I agree with you. You know, Chad Debel gave him a blessing that said you'll know when you'll go to the other side. It was the day after Tammy Debe. I mean, autopsy, or not autopsies. Well, she was exhumed. Yeah, she was exhumed. Yeah.

Thank you. And then there was a bag of money waiting for Zulama. And it just been to Mexico. Like, was it the day before or two days before? Sometimes I get my facts mixed up. It's like there's so many moving parts here. I have a very hard time believing it's natural too. And look, I'm not saying that the person that did the autopsy is wrong.

But, but. And I want to know if you agree with me. I do think it was a pulmonary embolism. that's what the autopsy says, lung cloths, right? But what poison could have maybe been undetected that causes that? And I feel like there's always something that's like undetected, right? We don't know about. That's the million dollar question. I mean, how many times have we heard or covered cases where people are injecting insulin and it goes under the radar or they're doing something and it causes these people to die and people don't look into it or they don't go below the line on it. And it's just,

it's too convenient. Like, I'm not trying to be a conspiracy theorist, but like, come on. Like, where there's smoke, there's fire, right? Something isn't right here. When there's a lot of evidence, it starts to become less of a conspiracy theory. Maybe that's what it is. Because I feel the same way. I'm like, I'm not a conspiracy theory. But really? I mean, with all the deaths surrounding it. And you're right. And Alex Cox, they do believe was likely the killer in this conspiracy to killer murderous spree, which actually brings me to another question, though, a lot of people do think that maybe Lori participated in some of the, I mean, she participated in them. She's been convicted of them. So let me rephrase that. I mean, physically. Like, do you,

I don't know. I really don't know, but do you think that Lori maybe even played a part in the physical killing, or do you think she only conspired? I think she probably, I think she probably, probably did. I think not only did she have a role, I think she probably participated, but what I will say to that is, and I could be, I could be completely wrong. I'm actually interested to know what you think. I think that if she did have any sort of physical role in it, that maybe it was giving JJ something that made him sleepy or that made him subdued so that they could like take over and take control or something with Tiley, I don't know that she necessarily was hands on with the act of murder, if that makes sense.

sense, maybe more of like some of the components that helped attribute to it and like speed it along. But I just can't imagine that she was just, it was all happening, you know, unbeknownst to her. She's like, I don't want any part of it. Just go do it. Maybe. But I think that she probably would have had a bigger hand in it. Yeah. No, I agree with you.

And I hope that they gave something to JJ and to Tiley, you know, to make him sleepy. I can only hope, you know, that's like, you know, just to make it less. traumatic for them. I can imagine their last moments. But I, yeah, I, I want to think that she, I agree that she let it happen and she handed them over. If she participated in any, I think she might have helped with JJ. That's after like some of the evidence I saw at trial, but, but then at the same time, because she's a mother, I like, I like stop, but I'm like, I just can't go there sometimes too. I'm like, no, I just want to imagine that she. she that woman I'm staring at in court isn't that evil but then she's unnerving it I know I know I know I know

then she let it happen and she's is and and that and that's what I want to ask about you know I feel like usually if like there's a second trial she's already a convicted murderer right she is a convicted murder of killing her own children like this is like she's already serving three consecutive life sentences and so I want to ask you your thoughts on the second trial because I feel like for the most part a second trial wouldn't get that much attention. But this kind of isn't your average second trial because the first one wasn't even televised. Now we've got a video on this and she's representing herself. Like any, any thoughts or any, are you looking? Go ahead. I think, I think the reason people are still so glued to this is because they just want to see justice for all

people involved, for Tammy, for Charles, for everyone, for Brandon, like all across the board. The fact that she's representing herself is, I wish I could say I was surprised, but I'm really not. Like, I think it's so on brand for Lori. I'm not shocked at all. Do I think she's going to do a good job? Certainly not. I think it's going to be a complete circus in there. There's been some things that I've seen and heard where I'll be honest, I'm a little bit impressed at certain ways she's handling herself. I don't think that I could do that. But we also know, in my opinion, I should say, actually not we, but me, I think she's a full-blown narcissist. So I think once she's out there and once she's trying to spin her version and her narrative,

we're probably going to see a replica of what we saw in the Keith Morrison Dateline interview, where it's just, you know, this self-righteous, I'm the victim, you don't know what you're talking about. And I think it's going to just be chaos. But at the end of the day, if it gets justice for Charles and his family and everybody, it's like, fine, we'll go through the motions, you know. Yeah, pretty much Keith Morrison's interview. with Lori taught us that she thinks she's going to be exonerated and go on dancing with the stars. It doesn't get. Exactly.

Grazier than that. No, I know. And I thank you for being able to laugh with me, by the way, too. I appreciate that friendship with you because a lot of people will say, like, how could you laugh? Look, if you don't laugh, you cry. We've been covering this. You and I've been covering this for five and a half years. And I just want people to know that. Like, this is heartbreaking. This is hard. But sometimes you just have to laugh. It's so absurd, you know. Yeah. Roy Ballo, a convicted murderer, is representing herself. Yeah.

And she's going to go on dancing with the stars. Yeah. But I, yeah, I feel like the thing I'm most intrigued about, yeah, is just the fact that she's representing herself and that she seems to have no self-awareness. I've already sat through jury selection. And jury selection was wild. I was not expecting that. I was even like, should I come to jury selection?

or should I just stay home? I'm like, oh, I'll go, you know, set up, you know, learn the lay of the land. And it's already been, it's almost been, like, almost manic. Like, she's like calm and then she gets so riled up so quickly. I think it's just foreshadowing that it's going to be a pretty wild case, in my opinion. You mentioned narcissist. Don't worry. I hold the same. I hold the same. belief. I actually am not afraid to say I think she's a psychopath. I think she's a full on psychopath. So it's like I think throw that in there. So like a a psychopath that doesn't have self-awareness that's been diagnosed with delusional disorder because we learned that from like judge boys during her sentencing representing herself in court and somehow she's competent

to do that. It's just hard to and a convicted child murderer. Like this is like hard to swallow. You know, but it's a really interesting combination. And. And I don't know. Yeah, I don't know what to expect. It's going to be very interesting to see how, what line of questioning she has, what she tries to spin. And I thought in the first trial that they were probably going to pin everything on Alex and like, you know, even way harder than what was insinuated.

And so I'm kind of wondering what's going to happen since Alex was the one who shot Charles. Like, is that where this is going to go? It's just going to be interesting. Yeah, I think she's going to actually stick. To the affair story. Do you remember when she went into the police department before Charles was killed and like went in, there was body camp footage and she was saying, oh, well, he stole my purse.

He had an affair. So he's freaking out and dead of these, you know, and she like, the police believed her. And I, I like him starting to suspect that that's going to stay her motive, Annie, is that he was having an affair and it was self-defense. And back to like, by the way, trying to blank. Well, first off, what do you think, like, what do you think her motive's going to be? Same thing. I think, I think probably that or maybe even looping in like my brother was so protective of me. There was abuse going on.

Charles was abusing me. Maybe she'll try to rope the kids into that too. Alex just wanted to protect me, his niece, his nephew. I think that it's going to be, whatever it is, it's going to be a sob story. And it's going to be her being the victim. because we know that that's what she does best. It is what she does best. She is always, always the victim, which is a sign of a psychopath, I might add.

Always the victim. Well, let me ask you this. Do you think that had she never been caught or charged that she would have continued to kill people? Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the Internet. and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere.

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or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at aura.com slash remove. Hmm, that's a good question. Yes. Yes. I don't know if right away

because I don't think, you know, a lot of times people think that a psychopath is someone that just kills, right? Because a lot of serial killers are psychopaths, thus our psychopaths always killers. I think she, I think of a psychopath as like a severe personality disorder, antisocial, you know, is extreme. and I think that she wanted to be a good mother and she wanted to be a good LDS or Mormon woman. And I don't know what happened to her. So my point is it's like this killing in the name of righteousness is kind of bizarre. Like she has no conscience.

So I think that she wasn't thinking necessarily, I want to go be a serial killer, but I think that if encouraged, for extreme beliefs she absolutely would have. Like I think that they would have found a way to kill Brandon Boudreau. I think she would have found the way to recruit more cult leaders

and find a way to kill them, kill people in the name of righteousness. I do. But I don't think she was thinking like an average serial killer, like a Ted Bundy serial killer. Like I want to go kill people

because that's just like feels so good to me. I think she wanted to fill a purpose. Does that make sense? I don't know if that makes. No, it totally does. I agree with you. I don't think that she would have continued to kill or even killed at all for the thrill of it. Like we see in so many serial killer cases, I think it's more anytime somebody got in her way of what she wanted, they needed to be eliminated.

They needed to get out of the way. Charles, Brandon, JJ, Tiley, whoever it was, maybe then Alex, because maybe he was then a threat to her once Tammy's body got exhumed. And I also think that had everything kind of gone under the radar and nobody looked into the children when they were missing and except for when they contacted Melanie Gibb, it's my belief that if people continued to get in her way of what she wanted and what her goal was, that she would have continued to kill them and disguised it as under the religious veil of everything of them being zombies, them being evil. And I think, too, like, depending on what the circumstances would have been, after Melanie told the police that JJ wasn't with her, I think that she probably would have gone after Melanie because then she was a threat to her as well. I think anytime somebody got in the path of her, you know, her goal, it was like just destruction. That's what I think they were doomed. Absolutely. I think you just nailed it, Melanie Gibb. I think Kay Woodcock, right? Melanie Gibb, Kay Woodcock, I think Zulama. I was just going to say Zulama. She knew. too much, I'm sure. Yeah, she knew way too much.

Remember that whole massage story with Alex? Do you remember that where she said, I was getting a massage from Alex and they put like a tarp down first and we had just gotten married. But then I realized maybe I could have been murdered, but here I am. And now Alex's dead. Anyway, yeah, it's too bizarre. It's like Dexter. But yeah, I think all of those people, you're right for this cause.

How about this? And fact, I know I'm remembering what John would say about like a serial killer. She is a mission driven serial killer technically. Like it would have if she had a mission, which she does, thus killing, she would do anything to, you know, make sure that her mission was accomplished if that meant killing people, that meant killing people, including her own children. I think that's how John explains it. Like there's like different serial killers and she's a mission driven one. So, so yes. Yes.

She would have killed. I wonder at which point, if any, she and Chad would have turned against each other. if it's like it was years down the road like at some point maybe you're thickest thieves now but what happens if there's a hotter younger version of you that comes in what happens if he starts thinking that you're a zombie like i wonder at which point they would turn against each other who has the biggest life insurance policy exactly do you by any chance know if they have i know they haven't had any direct communication but has there been what's going on with their dynamic Wow. I do think they've had some communication, not with each other because he's on death row

and she's a convicted murderer. So it's kind of complicated. Like they can't just communicate with each other even though they'd have to go through people. They have to go through people. But I have heard that there has been somebody in the middle that has helped them communicate. That's all. prior you know i hate that guy i hate that guy how about this this is true this is true i genuinely don't know who the third person is i have my suspicions and so maybe it's john prior maybe it's john prior so you text me after this and tell me i really don't know i've been dead serious this isn't even like this is here's what's crossed my mind john prior did not cross my mind i was like maybe emma kind of

have crossed my mind. But I don't know. I'm being so serious, Annie, I don't know. So like you saying John Pryor was like, oh, maybe that's, yeah, maybe that's it. But yeah, a good source hinted at them communicating through a third party. And she is committed to Chad Deba. What do you think about that, by the way? Do you think she really is, is this just like a, is this just to like save face or is she

madly and deeply in love. I think that. I think she's in love. I think she's disturbed. I think she's so delusional because at first I thought, okay, even at her last trial, like, she's going to have to go down swing and she's going to have to like, you know, really sell the bit hard that she was, like, that she believed this, that she truly thought all this was real, even if she doesn't anymore.

And I also had thought that maybe she and Chad. would flip on each other at some point when they realized how high the stakes were. And when they didn't. And then especially seeing the Dateline interview recently, just be her behavior and what she was saying. I was like, no, I really think she believes this. I think that she, I don't know what kind of imbalance is happening or if it's just the delusional disorder or what.

But I truly think that she believes it. And that's a very scary place to be in mentally, physically anywhere. in that proximity because that to me is somebody who is very dangerous and capable of who knows what. I agree with you. It's a reason she needs to be locked up forever. It would increase her risk. Her risk factor goes up according to what, you know, John does. Like, he assesses risk.

Like, can someone go out on parole? Can someone, not that she was, she's a convicted murderer, but like my point is what John does. My husband is assess risk. And her risk is through the roof because of believing in those extreme. beliefs. Like, so going back to your question, would she kill again? Yeah, she would kill again. If she needed to, if she was confronted with a mission where she needed to kill again, then she would. So you saw the Dateline episode. That was pretty wild. Have you watched Colby's interview with his mom at all yet? Have you seen or heard of that at all? The one from a

couple months ago? I did. Yeah. The thing that got me the most there is you remember how you said, you said, I thought that they would blame everything on Alex. And I thought, yeah, I did too. Like, isn't that what, isn't that what a fall guy is? Right. Like, oh, great, you've got a fall guy and he's dead. I mean, talk about like your perfect scapegoat. And yet she doesn't go that direction. She blames everything entirely. When I heard her double down on that, like in more of like the recent interviews, I can't even tell you, Lauren, how angry I was. Like, if I thought I had rage with Casey Anthony. I mean, when I heard that, it's like, you're now not only going to, like, you were convicted of murdering your children and now you're going to say that your own daughter killed JJ in such a way.

And you're going to just like shit on her memory, her legacy, everything. It's like, how evil can one person be? You can't even call her a mother. You truly cannot because there is not a single ounce of motherhood or mother instinct inside of her. I don't think so. It's just I can't imagine how you can do that at all. Sleep at night. It's just I don't even have the words for it.

It just enrages me so much. Completely agree. It's the most appalling thing. You know, once someone's convicted of a crime, everybody wants to know, are they going to have remorse? You know, when Ruby Frankie and Jody Hildebrandt were sentenced, that's the thing, do they have remorse? What's the way you could have the least amount of remorse, like negative amounts of remorse?

blaming everything on the on the on the child that you murdered so i the child victim like yeah what are you even doing it's yeah if you want to know just how demented you know and so and so to think that this woman is about to represent herself it's just wild in court and you know what else um got me in the interview with colby was when she said to colby losing you colby has been been the hardest thing for me. It was horrible to say to Colby because it's so manipulative and it's a guilt trip on him because he's needed to obviously leave his mother alone to even like function in life. But then to say that again, after you, you murdered your two children,

Tiley and JJ aren't even here, you're blaming the murders on your dead child. And you're saying to your child that's still alive, but you're my hardest lost. I mean, I just, I, I, when you think it couldn't get worse with her, it just gets worse. Yeah. I just. Yeah. And that's unfortunately another name, I guess, that you could, we could throw into that mix of people down the road that might have been in her way that she, I mean, if she was going, if she was willing to kill Tiley and JJ, why not Colby? If something ever happened and he got in the way or started asking questions, I don't think that there were any limitations with her. Yeah. Yeah, I don't either. Yeah, going back to that question that, like, now that you've like asked that a long time ago, we keep talking with she kill again. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, it's, it's wild. I do want to say this to, you know, I went to her first trial. Um, and I kind of sat by the jury. I never really made eye contact with her or anything. Like, I don't even know if she would know is there, even though I attended every day. But in this courtroom, it's a little bit bigger.

and you can see a little bit more. And there aren't that many people there for jury duty. Not jury duty, excuse me, jury selection, voir dire. And so we have made eye contact. I try to look away quickly so nobody thinks I'm not trying to communicate with her. Like if it happens, I'm like, I kind of look. But I'll just say this, Annie, like, if it looks could kill. Like, I don't know.

I've never said that before about someone because I feel like that's so cliche to be like, oh, their look, you know what I mean? They were so evil and they looked at me. And I could feel, I'm like, eh, but it was chilling. And somebody else was in the courtroom, too. And when I was turned around, they said that she kept looking and they're like, yeah, if looks could kill. Like, she's just, she is, she, yeah, there's just something diabolical about her.

I just don't even. I believe it. I believe it. I think that she has one of those looks. And it's so anybody who is capable of such destruction and so callously so, I think they do have one of those looks where it's like, it's just. piercing and it's almost like you can feel yourself disintegrate a little bit because it's just true evil looking back at you. Yeah. Yeah. Well sad. And I think maybe that's it too. I don't always go

to the whole just calling people evil thing. It's like not my jam, but like in this situation, five and a half years later still trying to process this, I think that maybe that's the best word to use. Like I've like that there's my conclusion. You know, it's just it's just, wild. What do you, she's wearing a stun belt for trial. She does not want to be wearing the stun belt. She is very upset. She argued it in court, but she's wearing it. And she doesn't have shackles or anything. And it's like I said, she can get kind of manic or at least she's shown that. Any thoughts about what might happen in court or any, have you been thinking about that at all? I definitely think that, and I kind of said this a little bit earlier, but I think that she'll definitely come at it from a self-righteous angle. I just think that there's no other option for her. That's just what her MO is. And I would be very shocked if she testifies. At first I thought, you know what, maybe she will. We know she loves to talk. We know she thinks that she can pull one over and manipulate people. But then I really started thinking about it. And,

Again, going back to the Keith interview on Dateline, I was like, if she gets put up there and they're asking the hard questions on cross or whatever, whatever is going on, she's not going to be able to evade the questions like she did with Keith, where she was just like, really, Keith, what do you know? Do you really? Do you know that? Like she can't do that. She's going to be forced under oath. Yes or no. Answer this question. And I think she knows that. And I think she doesn't want to be boxed in like that. So I would be shocked if she testified. but I don't know. I mean, I guess we've seen crazier things happen. What do you think? I don't know. She sort of hinted. I thought she would be testifying,

but she sort of hinted at during jury selection with the question. She asked the potential jurors that she wouldn't be testifying because she said, she said, if I don't tell my side and they don't, and the state doesn't meet their burden of proof, she did say that the, you know, the juror's jobs are to,

is to protect her from the state. And the judge was like, yeah, I know their job is not to protect you. But nonetheless, she said, if I don't share my side, meaning her testimony and the state doesn't prove, you know, their burden, would you guys be willing to, you know, say that I'm innocent? That was like one of the big questions that she was asking the jurors.

So that was the first moment of like, oh, maybe she won't testify. She didn't testify in her first trial, although she gave a hell of a sentencing speech that will never forget. So I don't know. This is interesting, though. I don't know if you heard, but I've never seen a jury like this. So the 16 jurors, 12 jurors for alternate,

three of them are female, just three. I don't know. What are your thoughts on that? I feel like it could go either. I kind of think that's good. I think it's good. I mean, I think it kind of lessens the opportunity for there to be. Not that I think any mother would,

or female would. would identify with her necessarily, but if there were more women and who had been cheated on in the past and were like, you know, there was wrongdoing on their partner and they felt like they had been slighted in any sort of way, I could see where there would be more room for people to identify with her a little bit. So I'm okay. That's a good point. No, I, yeah, you know, at first people think, oh, she is just going to try to manipulate these men, right? Because that's like her MO is just like being flirty and manipulating men. But then I, it's, yeah, I pointed out, I'm like, but the victim in this case, Charles

Valo is a male. I mean, they're going to connect to him, right? So, yeah, it'll be. Well, and not for nothing, but like, this could be totally off base. I'm just thinking through it, but, because I'm obviously not a man, but like thinking from a man's point of view, if I, if the victim is a man and she's telling this whole sob story about an affair and how he wronged her and all of these things. not that he would side with the guy, obviously,

but I don't know that a man would have a ton of sympathy for a woman in that situation, maybe, but I think that it would be more, arguably more so if she were trying to manipulate them, like, through her looks and her wit and, like, doing that, which we know her looks are gone after the first trial for the most part. And, like, I just, I don't know. I don't think that if that's her strategy, I do not think that she thought it through. Right, right. Yeah, I agree with you.

Yeah. Thank you for just like seriously just talking this out with me as a friend. I appreciate it. True crime bestie. True crime best is what you say at your channel. I feel that. So thank you. I was like,

I just need to like talk this out with somebody who understands me right now and can like process this. Tell us, Annie, where we can find you, where we can listen to your podcast and where we can go for the latest. Yeah. So serialistly is available on all podcast platforms. new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, and then tend to life on YouTube, deep dives every week. And yeah, as far as what we're up to, not much. Still just kind of doing the same thing over here. I will be going on tour again. I just found out starting in June. So you know

I'm going to hit you up for that so that you can come join me. It'll be a little bit bigger this time. But other than that, same old, same old. Awesome. I will be there. And yes, I joined Annie when you had a tour and I joined you in Salt Lake City. And that was so fun. So I'm absolutely, I'll absolutely be up for it again. Congrats on your second tour coming up. Thanks. Thank you. You're welcome. All right, Annie, thank you so much for being here and we'll be talking soon again. Awesome. Thanks so much for having me. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent.

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