High Hopes: A Phillies Podcast - Mound Visit Ep. 2: Which Phillie Had the Best Individual Season Since 2000 with Chris Wheeler and Jim Salisbury

Episode Date: December 18, 2018

Tim Kelly is back with the second episode of Mound Visit. This week, Tim is asking the question, going off of Aaron Nola's 2018 campaign, which Phillie has had the best individual season since 2000? He's joined by legendary Phillies broadcaster, Chris Wheeler, and NBC Sports Philadelphia's, Jim Salisbury, to discuss. See omnystudio.com/policies/listener for privacy information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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On Radio.com and Sports Radio 94 WIP. What's going on, High Hopes listeners? I'm Tim Kelly. This is the second episode of Mound Visit with yours truly. And believe you me, in the recent weeks between James and Jack, there's been plenty of coverage of the hot stove. I've had plenty both for 94 WIP dot com and Phillies Nation. And believe me, I love that stuff.

I look forward to the trade deadline. I look forward to the trade deadline I look forward to the winter meetings and to me the winter meetings specifically are both the most exciting and stressful times to write about baseball because there is so much coming in things are so fluid it's exciting but it's also a little bit unnerving that you know at any second. I mean, there's been times in the last couple years where I'm laying in bed at 2.30 in the morning thinking I'm done for the day, and I remember specifically last year when there was some thought that the Orioles could trade Machado.

I mean, there really isn't a time. One of the things in sports media is there's some safe times where you think you're never really completely off the clock, but you think Fridays through Sundays you're in the clear for the most part as far as major breaking news, and you think you're in the clear after about midnight, 1 o'clock on the East. That goes out the window, the winter meetings, and really for much of the offseason. So it's an exciting time. It's certainly a busy time.

much of the off season. So it's an exciting time. It's certainly a busy time. And in addition to being a change of pace with this podcast, being an interview focused show, I like to bring a change of pace in terms of topics. And I have one that I think you guys will really enjoy today. So between writing, producing and hosting this podcast, I'll be having conversations with people throughout the day. And it's not that I'm not listening, but my mind often wanders throughout the day thinking about what is my next article? What is my next podcast topic going to be about? Sometimes it happens while I'm still writing another article. So it's a blessing and a curse. I always have a notepad full or a note in my phone full of different article and podcast ideas some of them stay in there for six hours some of them stay in there for six months pretty

much all of them get used at some point and this is one that i've been sitting on for a little while so and i think this is a topic that a lot of people are going to like what is the best individual season of philly has had since 2000 now this doesn't mean the best individual season the Phillies have had since 2000, where we would be debating 2011 versus 2008 in all likelihood. This is what is the best individual season? So you're going to look at Ryan Howard, Jimmy Rollins, Roy Halladay, and I'll go through some of the candidates in a second, but I think it's an interesting topic because it gets to what's important to you, what makes a player valuable, does the best individual season, 111 RBIs, and had a 4.3 F4. Unfortunately for him, my guess is that he's going to be overshadowed by our next season, which is Ryan Howard in 2006,

when he hit 58 home runs, drove in 149 RBIs, and had a 5.9 F4. He obviously won the National League MVP that season. The Phillies did not make the playoffs, although even after trading Bobby Abreu at the deadline, Ryan Howard kept the Phillies in things with one of what would go on to be a few dominant Septembers where he just tore the cover off the ball. For as much as he would start slow some years, you knew come September that Ryan Howard often would put the team on his back. Now, speaking of players that did that, and Jimmy Rollins did this not only from an on-field sense,

but from a confidence and narrative sense. In 2007, he hit.296 with 30 home runs, 94 RBIs. He won a Gold Glove Award. He joined the 2020-2020, it's 520s I believe, club, he obviously won the National League MVP. And he had the narrative on his side. Prior to the season, he said the Phillies were the team to beat. The Phillies, despite the Mets coming in after a season where they finished one game away from going to the World Series, stormed back late in the season with thanks to help from the Mets, who collapsed down the stretch to win the division. And then Jimmy Rollins became the second consecutive Philly to win the MVP.

Now, I would make an argument, and a lot of people would push back on this, but also a lot of people would agree, that the best player of that era, certainly at his peak, was Chase Utley. And in 2007, while Jimmy Rollins won the MVP, had Chase Utley not broken his hand in 2007, while Jimmy Rollins won the MVP, had Chase Utley not broken his hand in July, his future teammate John Lannan, pitching for the Washington Nationals at that time, hit his right hand while he was batting, broke his hand.

The Phillies got Tadahito Oguchi. Everything worked out, but it still cost Chase Utley a month of the season. And mind you, this is a season where he played 132 games, so he missed exactly a month of the season, 30 games. He hit.332 with 22 home runs, 103 RBIs, and a 7.7 F4. This was without playing 30 more possible games. It's possible the average and the war and everything takes some dips, but it's also possible they continue to increase.

You can make a case that 2008 or 2009 Utley was even better, but 2007 to me is the one that I look at and say, if Chase Utley had stayed healthy and not broken his hand, I still think the Phillies would win the division. I also think that Chase Utley, not Jimmy Rollins, could have potentially won the National League MVP. It's an interesting debate that we'll probably get to at another time. In 2010 then, we get into a stretch of pitching dominant seasons. Roy Halladay posted a 2.44 ERA, a 6.1 F4. He threw a perfect game against the Marlins in May.

He threw the second playoff no-hitter in baseball history in his first postseason start, Game 1 of the NLDS against the Cincinnati Reds. And I would say he was even better in that game than he was in the perfect game. And then he won his second Cy Young Award, making him one of what's now, I believe, six pitchers when you include that Max Scherzer has since accomplished this feat to win a Cy Young in both leagues. Now, in 2011, which was the most successful regular season the Phillies ever had, Cliff Lee returned, and while you can make a case that Roy Halladay actually had a better season in 2011 than in 2010,

2010's the one that sticks out because a lot of the big moments. For Cliff Lee, 2011 sticks out. He had a 2.40 ERA, a 6.8 F4. He went 5-0 in June with an 0-21 ERA in three complete games. I remember being at the Phillies and Red Sox in June during that stretch where he threw one of the three consecutive complete games. I've never seen the stadium like that. It was one thing because it was the Phillies and the Red Sox and at the time they were the two

best teams in the league. They both had monster off seasons. The Phillies had brought Cliff Lee back. The Red Sox had traded for Adrian Gonzalez signed Carl Crawford. Both teams were expected to meet in the World Series and at that point both had lived up to that hype. The Red Sox obviously

would collapse and lead to the end of Terry Francona there but at that point both had lived up to that hype. The Red Sox obviously would collapse and lead then to Terry Francona there, but at that point they were playing at an incredible level as well. And when people talk about we need to get— I was at a conference last year where Dave Buck was talking about we want to get Citizens Bank Park jumping again. That's what I think of, and a lot of it had to do with Cliff Lee coming back and the energy that that brought. And then the season Cliff Lee had that year was absolutely remarkable.

He finished third in Cy Young voting. Clayton Kershaw won. Halliday finished second. And frankly, I think you can make a strong case Halliday probably should have won the award that year as well as that Homerism. Because I think Kershaw's had the better career than Halliday. Homerism because I think Kershaw's had the better career than Halliday, but I struggle to think if you go and compare the two numbers that Halliday shouldn't have won the Cy Young award that year. Cliff Lee finished third in the Cy Young voting that year in a normal year, and we said this

about Aaron Nola this year, but it's especially true for Cliff Lee in 2011. In a normal season, he wins the Cy Young that year. He was that good. Now, Cole Hamels, I felt the need to mention him in the same way as Jim told me because he's, Cole Hamels especially is an all-time great Philly. There's not really one specific season you look at.

2014 was a great season. He got absolutely no run support. 2011 though was an incredible season. Unfortunately for him, despite a 2.79 ERA, a 4.9 F4, and finishing fifth in NL Cy Young voting, the season was kind of overshadowed because Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee were the new toys, and they were extremely exciting, and probably the two best pitchers in the sport at that time.

So Cole Hamels got overshadowed a bit, but he was incredible during that stretch. The funny thing about Cole Hamels is we think of 2008 with Cole Hamels, but really he came of age for the playoffs, and it's great because the Phillies, without a great starting staff, won the World Series that year behind Hamels winning NLCS and World Series MVP. But Cole Hamels really hadn't peaked at that point in his career. 2011 to me was his absolute best season, and he had a fairly extended peak that he's not going to be a Hall of Famer in my mind, but it's certainly going to cause people to look over the ballot quite a

bit when he's on it. And then Aaron Nola in 2018 had a season that I would say is slightly better than what Cole Hamels had in 2011. He had a 2.37 ERA, a 5.6 F war. He finished third in National League Cy Young voting. And frankly, again, like Cliff Lee in 2011, you had Jacob deGrom who put together a season that we'll be talking about in 50 years. And then Max Scherzer, who's someone that got a late start but is working his way into the Hall of Fame discussion because he has been so dominant at his peak. This is someone in Max Scherzer that already won three Cy Young Awards, two consecutive. And 2018 was probably the best season he ever had, and he finished runner-up. So that gives you an idea of how dominant of a season Aaron Nola had despite finishing third in Cy Young voting.

And that's why, and not to get off on a side tangent here, but when people talk about, oh, how many top five finishes does he have in this award when they're evaluating someone for the Hall of Fame, it's not a great way to look at things because, A, how people vote changes. How people voted for MVPs in 2003 is certainly not the same way they vote in 2018. And just because they're put in that specific spot does not mean it's right. So I do think they got it right in this case. But I'm cautious with a lot of people in telling people not to get too caught up

in how many top five finishes does he have in MVP or Cy Young or whatever the case is when you're looking back on someone's career. So to talk about this, I enlisted the help of two people that have been with the Phillies really my entire life. Chris Wheeler, who pretty much anyone that grew up watching the Phillies grew up with Chris Wheeler as the color commentator next to Harry Callis and a variety, Tom McCarthy, other guys. So Chris Wheeler is a great mind, a great person to talk about this discussion. So we're going to talk to him.

We're also going to talk to NBC Sports Philadelphia, their Phillies beat writer, Jim Salisbury, who I believe has been covering the team since 1994. So he's been on the beat for every single season that is being discussed here. So he's a great tool as well. So we're going to start with Chris Wheeler. There's a short list of people you call when you want to talk about Phillies history. And at the top of that list is Chris Wheeler, who worked on Phillies telecast for over three decades. Wheels, we're thrilled to have you join us here on Mountain Visit.

Let's start with this. Ryan Howard won the MVP in 2006, and Jimmy Rollins won it in 2007. In 2006, Howard broke the single-season franchise home run record with 58 while driving in 149 runs. He also did it, though, for a team that sold at the deadline, trading away Bobby Abreu and missed the playoffs. Jimmy Rollins, meanwhile, won an MVP in a season where the Phillies made the playoffs for the first time in 15 years.

So to you, which of those individual seasons was more memorable? Well, the Ryan Howard thing obviously was pretty cool to watch, to see him hit all those home runs and to do all the things that he did. And to think why you've got a monster in the middle of your order now for a long time because he's such a young guy. But to me, Jimmy Rollins' 2007 MVP year, going to the postseason, predicting that the Phillies were going to win, all those kind of things. And then, not only do we talk about his offensive numbers for MVP,

but think how many runs he saved, too. He was at the peak of his career defensively, too, as well as offensively. An unbelievable two-way player that hit at the top of the order. So to me, that year was one of the greatest years I've ever seen an individual Philly player have. So Ryan Howard, as we just mentioned, won the MVP in 2006. He also did so while striking out 181 times and grading out poorly in the field, both based off of defense or metrics and just the eye test.

In this type of discussion, does that at all take away from his season, or does hitting.313 with 58 home runs almost erase any negatives in your mind yeah that doesn't uh absolutely does not erase or absolutely does not factor into the uh and what an unbelievable year he had you know i saw mike mike schmidt i think it was a 48 and and brian how he just went by that thing blew that number out of the water and you also as i said you realize you had a guy in the middle of the order, and you also saw a guy that was going to be able to produce. And he's a power hitter.

And the power hitters, even to this day, well, now they strike out more. But even back then, you learned to live with power hitters striking out around 200 times. So he struck out, what you said, 181 or whatever it was that year. So the strikeouts were going to go along with it. And his defense in those days, you know, it would grade out below average, I guess, because of the metrics of nowadays. But he also had guys on that infield that threw him a lot of strikes over there that he didn't have to worry about digging as many balls out of the dirt. He was much more mobile.

He was lighter in those days. He hadn't blown out the Achilles. His knees weren't starting to bother him. So to me, he was not at that point in his career a defensive liability to the point where you thought, oh, you're going to get killed defensively with Ryan Howard in the lineup. He's going to have to hit an awful lot. Well, he hit an awful lot, but he was okay defensively.

So you mentioned how memorable Jimmy Rollins winning the MVP in 2007 was. Some would argue that if Chase Udley hadn't broken his hand in July, he may have won that award instead. Rollins, of course, he had the narrative on his side, having predicted before the season that the Phillies were

the team to beat. But Udley hit.332 with 22 home runs, 103 RBIs, and a 7.7 F4 despite missing 30 games. Fangraphs also says he was the second-best fielder at second base in 2007. In your mind, not even necessarily who had the better individual season because Utley missed a month, but who was the most important player to that 2017? I'll always say it was Jimmy Rollins because,

and the numbers you mentioned, Brad, were unbelievable. You're right. I mean, Chase Utley would have been a Hall of Famer if he hadn't started to get hurt. Not that injury, but of course the knees that came along later, and he missed so much time because he would have hit more home runs than any second baseman in history if he hadn't been so injury-plagued. And that year he had really come into his own also,

was an unbelievable player. But I'm going to stick with Jimmy Rollins because, even though you mentioned Utley's defensive metrics were good, he was playing second base. He wasn't playing shortstop. And if you don't have a guy up the middle playing shortstop for you on a good team, and I can't even remember back in those days that we had a lot of strikeout pitchers.

I don't think we really did. So the ball was in play a lot. And Jimmy Rollins was just so unbelievable defensively and the things he was able to do with the glove to go along with his offense. I have to give him a little bit of a nod over at that year. I would say back in those days, the Phillies had a lot of pitchers that you knew were going to give up four runs in the offense and you had to score five. Yeah.

We're talking to Chris Wheeler here on Mound Visit with Tim Kelly, brought to you by High Hopes on Sports Radio 94 WIP. Though you can make a case, and we'll switch gears here a little bit, you can make a case that Roy Halladay's 2011 season was the best season of his career. He won the Cy Young in 2010, pitched a perfect game against Miami, and then had a playoff no-hitter in Game 1 of the NLDS, his first ever postseason start. So it's certainly the most memorable season of his career in 2010. From someone that had a front row seat every time he towed the rubber what made him so special well i'm going to go back to you weren't even born yet

probably but in 1972 and you can look up the numbers steve carlton had the most amazing year for an awful team uh he was 27 and 10 that year and his numbers are through the roof of what out left he was able to do and he had a 15 winning streak, and they were able to win so many games when he pitched, even though they were a bad team. To me, Roy Halladay was the reincarnation of Steve Carlton in a lot of ways. And the number one, there were two things. The preparation was unbelievable. Preparation was different in Doc's days than Lefty,

because Lefty, you didn't have all the stuff that they had then. But Lefty still had it in his head who the hitters were and how he was preparing and doing those kind of things and have his body ready. And he was a fierce competitor. Oh, my gosh, when he went out there, he was unbelievable. And Roy Halladay, you remember, that guy, every pitch to him was like a war when he went out there.

He always looked like he was working really hard. Lefty was more fluid. Carlton was able to do things that looked easier. Doc always looked like every pitch was maximum effort. He was grunting when he was out there. He was staring at umpires a lot. He'd stare at hitters sometimes. a lot. He'd stare at hitters sometimes. But to

pitch a perfect game, a perfect game, and then throw the only second no-hitter in postseason history. I remember when that was happening that night. I'm thinking, geez, I remember Don Larson. I was a young kid, but I remember his perfect game. I don't remember one

since then. Then we started looking it up, and sure enough, there hadn't been anything since that time in postseason. So the thrill of watching him pitch the perfect game and the no-hitter in the same year, and to watch the way he prepared himself and the way he competed was one of the more amazing things I've ever seen. And I compare it to the lefty 72 season, which, you know, you go back in our era, when I had first started in 71, and to see him pitch the way he did in 72, those were the two best years that I've ever seen guys have in Phillies uniforms. And Robin Roberts had some great years, too.

Don't get me wrong. But those are the two that I was able to see and really appreciate. So in your mind, what is more valuable to a contending team, an East starter like Halladay, Cliff Lee, Aaron Nola, or a superstar position player like Ryan Howard, Chase Utley, or Jimmy Rollins? Oh, man. I'll take the...

Well, you know, to have the starter that... But see, you really hit me. That's a good one. I've never thought about that. But what we're talking about... Now, if we're talking about the game that I grew up with, or today's game, the starting pitcher is

a lot less important than they used to be because they don't go deep into games anymore. They don't expect them to go. When Lefty started a game, he wanted to finish it. When Roy Halladay started a game, Charlie used to talk about when he'd go out there and take the ball from him, he was scary looking.

When he would stare at him like that. And the same thing with Lefty with Danny Ozark. So nowadays, today's type of pitcher, they're just not built to pitch the innings that they pitched in those days, nor to pitch the complete games that a Halliday and a Carlton pitch. So I've almost got to take the everyday position player that can produce amazing numbers, MVP type of numbers, because the guy's going to play almost every day and get four or five at-bats a day, or at least played appearances, and have the chance to do those kind of things.

So you hit me cold with that one. I never thought about it. But I'm going to go with the way the game is played nowadays and go with the everyday player. It is an interesting debate because I think even when I was a kid, I would have said the ace starter. And now you talk about this offseason. People have looked forward to it for years because of Bryce Harper

and Manny Machado, even though at one point Clayton Kershaw had a chance to be a free agent. You have Patrick Corbin. And it's just unquestionably Bryce Harper and Manny Machado have been the two big names. But I will give you the floor here. We've discussed a variety of the greatest seasons that a Philly has had since 2000, and that's without even really diving into Cliff Lee, Cole Hamels, Jim Tomey.

What to you is the most dominant individual season a player has had since 2000 in a Phillies uniform? I'm going to stick with Jimmy in 2007 because that was when the club turned the corner and went to postseason. Lost, of course, in three straight to the Rockies who were kind of destined that year. They were unbelievable what they were able to accomplish and go to a World Series that year even though they didn't win it. But they were a really good team. series that year, even though they didn't win it. But they were a really good team.

But I think Jimmy Rollins gave our club kind of a swagger. He was the smallest guy in the lineup, but yet he had the biggest heart. And he was a guy that wasn't afraid to put it out there to the public. Because when you pop off the way that he did about the

Mets and all those kind of things, you better be able to back it up. And you usually see a big guy do that. Well, Jimmy was not a big guy, as everybody knows. But he was as red light a player as I'd ever been around with the Phillies. Lenny was a little bit Dykstra. But Jimmy, for a guy that craved to be on the big stage, we always thought that, man, if this guy ever gets on the big stage,

I really think he's going to be special. And everybody knows what he was able to accomplish in postseason play at big moments for the Phillies. So that's still what we're talking about. Probably is the greatest season that I've ever seen a Philly have offensively. Mike Schmidt had some other ones, and we're not talking about that. And I go back to Carlton's year in 72 as the greatest performance I ever saw a pitcher have. And when you consider how bad that team was. But what we're talking about right now, Jimmy Rollins is my guy.

Chris Wheeler, thank you for joining us. My pleasure, Tim. I hope I made some sense. We are excited to welcome Jim Salisbury of NBC Sports Philadelphia to Mound Visit. You can read I made some sense. download the MyTeams app where you can stream the Phillies, Sixers, and Flyers on the go. Jim, let's start with this. You covered both Ryan Howard and Jimmy Rollins MVP seasons. Which of those two was a more dominant individual season in your mind? That is a really, really tough question to answer, and I'm not sure that I have a good answer for you. All I can tell you is they were both great seasons. They were both, as a writer and a reporter, covering a team,

especially a team that went through such a long, extended period of losing, building up toward that great run of 07 to 2011. It was really exciting to see those two young players emerge, turn that team into a championship team. So Howard wins the MVP in 06. And I remember that second half, and I think it seemed like he hit a home run every other night over the final two months of the season, August and September. Finished that year with 58 home runs and 149 RBI's.

And I think people forget he wasn't just this big home run hitter. The slugger hit.313 that year. Just really was an all-around hitter. Had an OPS of over 1,000. And like I said, I think he hit like 24 home runs over the final two months of the season. It seemed like every other night. And I remember writing a story. He hit a big home run to win a game down in Washington.

And I remember referring to him as Philadelphia's most popular athlete, just kind of. I was on deadline. I was riding fast. It just kind of came to me because the whole town was captivated by what Ryan Howard was doing down the stretch in 06. And that was when the Eagles were having this great run and Donovan McNabb. And it just kind of came off my fingertips, Philadelphia's most popular athlete.

And I remember writing that, and the next day Scott Graham, one of the Phillies broadcasters, said to me, wow, I saw you refer to him as Philadelphia's most popular athlete. And he says, I don't think I can disagree with that. What we're seeing, this guy has just been amazing. So that was a great run, a dominant, dominant season. You hit the ball out of the ballpark 58 times. People love home runs. People love power. It was really something to see. I don't know that I can say, I guess it was, in some ways, it was more dominant than Jimmy's 07 season just because of the way we regard power and the way power captivates. But Rollins in 07, as a writer, I think we always root for a great story. Rollins in 07 was a great story because, if you remember,

the Phillies hadn't been to the postseason in 14 years. And what does he do right before spring training is he says, you know, we're the team to beat in the National League East. People are like, what are you talking about? You haven't been to the playoffs in 14 years. He's saying that stuff. Well, every day of the 07 season, he went out and backed up that comment. And to me, that just made for a great story, the way he wore that comment on his back like a bullseye,

and he backed it up. And we hit 30 home runs that season, 94 RBIs, 20 triples. He won a gold glove, led the league in runs. I remember, you know, I had an MVP vote that season, and Matt Holliday had a huge season out in Colorado, and I was pulling my hair out who to vote for. I voted for Jimmy Rollins because, as I said, he wore that comment every day. He backed it up.

Some guys would have caved to the pressure of trying to back it up, but he never did, and on both sides of the ball. Made great plays night after night in the field. Had big hits. I remember the day they clinched it at Citizens Bank Park on a Sunday afternoon, a warm Sunday afternoon. The place was packed. Everybody was waving those rally towels.

And, you know, they were tied with the Mets, I guess, going into that final day. That was when they chased down the Mets. And the Mets, I think, had fallen behind 6-0. They were down 6-0. And it was there for the taking. And what does Jimmy do? I think he let off that game with his 20th triple of the season. I mean, 20 triples.

Think about that. So I don't know if I could say which one was more dominant. They were both a treat to watch. So Chase Utley isn't associated with one particular season like those two are. Perhaps had he not broken his hand in 2007, you could make a case he may have won the MVP that season. But at his height, was he the most valuable of that trio? Good question again.

In 2007, I remember that well. He took that ball from John Lannan off his hand, broke his hand. He might have been the MVP. I remember he missed a month. I remember writing stories about, you know, can he get back in the MVP race? I think he finished in the top ten that year. I think he finished eighth.

Pretty much, I'd have to say, it was his best season. He was on a Hall of Fame track, and he still might be. You know, he still might get there. But I think he was on a slam dunk Hall of Fame track until he came down with those knee issues. I don't know that I can say that he was the most valuable player. I think as a unit, you had the greatest

shortstop in Jimmy Rollins, the greatest second baseman in Chase Utley, and the greatest first baseman in Ryan Howard in Philly's franchise history, and they came together at the same time. They played next to each other in the same infield. I think if you subtracted one, it would have hurt the whole.

If you really pushed me as to who the key guy was in that great run, I might be tempted to say Ryan Howard, just because of the way a big, dangerous, intimidating bat in the middle of a lineup can change everything, from the way the pitcher approaches a game and his game plan and hitter to hitter, just to the damage that he can do with one swing. I thought Ryan Howard, in a lot of ways, because of his big production in the middle of that order, was the glue that brought it all together. But they would have missed Jimmy's energy.

They would have missed Chase Utley's heart and determination. And they would have missed Ryan Howard's muscle if you subtracted one of them. I think we saw that after Howard got hurt in 2011. They were a different team. I know they all got a little bit older, but losing Howard really hurt them. older, but losing Howard really hurt them. So I would say if there was one guy, I think there was maybe just a little bit of a key. It was Howard, but again, it was about the team, and you would have missed any one of those guys.

So switching gears a little bit, Roy Halladay won the Cy Young. He threw a perfect game and a playoff no-hitter in 2010. You could actually make the case that his 2011 regular season was even better. It might have been the best of his entire career, but he did it in a year where Clayton Kershaw might have been a tad bit better. Halliday's 2011 season perhaps overshadowed Cliff Lee, turning in one of the most dominant seasons in franchise history. When we talk about great individual Phillilly seasons since 2000, is that season

overlooked? Yeah, I think so. I think about the great pitching performances. I think Cole Hamels was very, very good in 2011. Halliday in 2010 and in 2011. Again, as a writer, you love a great story. I mean, Roy Halliday

pitching a perfect game in his 11th start as a Philly, after really wanting to come to the Phillies that winter. In a lot of ways, that was his dream team, to come to the Phillies. He pitches a perfect game, and he pitches a playoff no-hitter. Other dominant seasons, even before that, Schilling in 97 and 98,

you know, I'm kind of coloring outside the lines here, but to have back-to-back 300 strikeout seasons, just amazing. But to get back to your question about Cliff Lee, yeah, I think he was overshadowed by Roy Halladay in 2011. Roy Halladay on a whole, I think Halladay was kind of the ace of that team, and the big guy that everybody talked about, Cliff Lee,

right there with him, a great major league pitcher. I loved watching him pitch in his prime. You know, he would get the ball, throw the ball, fire a fastball, locate, locate, locate. He was tremendous. And in 2011, and I remember well, he had six shutouts. That is just astounding when you consider, you know, in 2018, major league leader in shutouts had won. This guy had six shutouts in 2011, including at 1.3 in a row.

And I remember well at Citizens Bank Park in mid-September, he's facing the Marlins. And he's one out away from his seventh shutout. I think he's got 12 strikeouts that night against the Marlins. No walks. He's one out away from his seventh shutout. I think he's got 12 strikeouts that night against the Marlins. No walks. He's absolutely dominant. It's just get the ball, fire the fastball. And then he's 0-2 on, I forgot the guy's name, Lopez,

a little hitter from the Marlins, Jose Lopez, I think. And it's 0-2. And the crowd is on his feet. I think the Phillies will win and 1-0. And he throws another fastball, instead of maybe going off speed or putting something in the dirt or climbing a ladder, he challenges with another fastball, and Lopez sticks the bat out and hits it in the seats. And there goes what would have been his seventh shutout.

And, you know, one pitch away from seven shutouts, and I firmly believe he would have won the Cy Young with seven shutouts that year. Instead, he finished third. Just, you know, one pitch, I believe, cost him the Cy Young that year. But when you talk about Halliday and Cliff Lee's greatness in 2010, 2011, and Cliff Lee's greatness in 2010, 2011. You're talking guys that would, you know, rack up, you know, 220, 225 strikeouts with, like, 35 or 40 walks.

I mean, just amazing pitching performances. And guys that like to finish what they started, you know, go nine innings. Again, complete games. You know, the leader, I think, in Major League Baseball had two of them last year. In just a short time, we've seen a different era of pitching. But those two guys with Hamels in Oswald, 2011, you're talking about one of the greatest pitching staffs ever assembled. And we got to see it right fully up close. Yeah, and you mentioned the amount of walks Cliff Lee had.

I think in 2010, the season that he spent with Seattle and then Texas, I think he only had like 30 walks. For that stretch, Cliff Lee's not going to be a Hall of Famer, but at his peak, Cliff Lee was as good as any pitcher in the sport. Now, talking to Jim Salisbury here on Mound Visit on 94wip.com and the Radio.com app. here on Mound Visit on 94wip.com and the Radio.com app. Jim, like Lee in 2011, Aaron Nola just finished third in a very crowded Cy Young award race.

How does his 2018 season, I would feel remiss if we didn't at least mention that in this discussion, how does that stack up compared to some of the great seasons that Cliff Lee, Roy Halladay, and Cole Hamels had? It is not far off. I don't think it measures Lee, Roy Halladay, and Cole Hamels had? It is not far off. I don't think it measures with Lee and Halladay, but you know what? I'll take it any day of the week. As a matter of fact, I'll take ten of them.

I thought it was outstanding. I think one of the things that Nola did in 2018, he was pitched at 24 years old last year in 2018. He had, and he finished third in the Cy Young. He had a dominant, dominant ace, number one ace type season at age 24. Those other guys, at least with the Phillies, were doing it at, you know, 29, 30, 31, 32 years old, you know, with some more maturity and pitching know-how and just experience helps you gain savvy in how to attack hitters. He did it at a very young age in his third full season of Major League Baseball.

It kind of wet your whistle for more to come. It kind of told you that this could just be the tip of the iceberg with this guy. If he stays healthy, you're going to be talking about him in the same breath as those guys someday. I think he's going to challenge for Cy Young in multiple seasons. So what do you view as more valuable to a team, an ace like Holiday, Lee, or Nola, or a superstar like Jimmy Rollins, Ryan Howard, or Chase Aldy

that plays on an everyday basis? I think you need a blend. If you want to win, I think you need a blend. I mean, that's why that 2011 team won 102 games. I know they had that great pitching staff, but they also had great players on the diamond. That's why they won from 07 to 2011. They had a blend.

2008, the pitching staff was still in a lot of ways coming together. It wasn't nearly as dominant, but starting in about mid-August, it was dominant, especially that bullpen. They came together. Ryan Madsen came together and provided a huge boost. We know the season that Brad Lidge had. And then we had Cole Hamels at age 23 or 24

just get hot as a firecracker in the month of October. So I really I've always been a guy if you put a gun to my head, I want to build around pitching because I think pitching can shut people down. But you really, if you want to put together a team that can run off

some really great seasons and do some special things, you definitely need a blend. You need a combination. It's awfully nice to have that number one starter, true number one, have a couple number twos

behind them because when you get into October, pitching can change everything., pitching can change everything. Starting pitching can change everything. But to get to October, you really need that blend. You need the offense and the defense and the pitching. So, Jim, you've covered every Philly season this century. Which, to you, has been the best individual season a Philly's put together since 2000?

Team-wise or individual? Individual. That's a great question. Every one of those guys we've talked about, from Nola to Hamels to Lee to Halladay, Utley, Rollins, Howard, every one of them you could cast a vote for. They've all done really great things. They're all special to watch. At times, each one of them carried the team.

There was something electric about Ryan Howard's 2006, the way he just built on that rookie of the year season and just went nuts in that second half in August and September, basically hitting a home run every other night, winning games. It was like, what else can he do? What's he going to do tonight? You couldn't wait to get to the ballpark to see what he could do tonight. I might vote for that one just because the home run is so romanticized in baseball.

Going back to Babe Ruth, you know, it's what the home run helped America fall in love with baseball when you go back to Babe Ruth. So I kind of might be tempted to say Ryan Howard was just that second half of 06 was so spectacular. What's he going to do next? And that might get my vote just by a hair over the rest of them. It's interesting, though. That's one of the seasons we're talking about that they didn't make the postseason. They actually sold at the deadline.

So it is interesting when we're having these discussions to look how it factors into team success. Jim Salisbury of NBC Sports Philadelphia. Jim, thank you for joining us. You're welcome. Thank you, Tim. All right, so a special thanks to Chris Wheeler and Jim Salisbury, two of the best Phillies minds for joining the program this week. And I hope this is a topic you guys enjoyed

because I really have enjoyed putting this together. As far as what season I would lean towards, I look back at 2011 and think that was the most magical season that the Phillies as a team have had, and that includes 2008. The point where Philadelphia became baseball heaven was something I never thought I would see. And frankly, even if the Phillies have a lot of team success, I don't know if it's something that we're going

to see again. However, as enjoyable as watching Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee pitch, I think at that point they were the one and two best pitchers in the sport. And you can make a case for CeCe Sabathia or Clayton Kershaw or different arms at that time but to me those were the best two pitchers in the sport it was so special to be able to watch them Chase Utley at his peak like I said I think I would take him over anyone in that trio I understand how incredible of a 2007 season Jimmy Rons had Aaron Noah's incredible in 2018 Jim Tomey's a Hall of Famer for a reason. But in terms of the best individual season,

boy, do I struggle not to take Ryan Howard in 2006 because when I look at these seasons, the first thing that comes to my mind is which of these are we least likely to ever see happen again in Philadelphia? And to have someone hit 313 and 58 home runs, as great as Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee were, and I'm not sure we will see that again from someone wearing a Phillies uniform, I know we won't see someone hit 58 home runs again in a Phillies uniform. And I think all of us had a pretty good idea that was the case at the time that Ryan Howard was doing it in 2006.

So I would lean towards that at the same time. If I was building a team, 2006 Ryan Howard is probably not one of the first three names that I would take on this list. So it's funny because I think I would take Chase Utley if I was building a team at his peak out of all these options. And if not Utley, I'm taking Roy Holiday and Cliff Lee probably slots in right behind them. And then you have an interesting debate on Ryan Howard, on Aaron Nola, Cole Hamels, Jim Tomey. The thing is, for as great as Ryan Howard was offensively, you still do have to factor in the fact that at that point in his career, he was a below-replacement-level fielder. And I think that doesn't take away—I would have voted for him for MVP in 2006.

It doesn't take away from the season he has. But when you're talking about a list where you have a bunch of possible Hall of Famers or a bunch of guys at their peak that were that level of good. You have to take the entire equation and not just what they did the best. And 2006, Ryan Howard hit 50 points higher than he would hit in most seasons in his career and almost 100 points higher than in some seasons at the very end. But to me, I still do factor in some of the negative parts when I'm talking about how would I build a team? Which of these guys would I take to build a team?

But when I'm talking about what the best individual season was, to me, Ryan Howard was the most memorable season. Jim Salisbury mentioned Scott Graham, who I believe 2006 was his final season with the Phillies. And I remember him calling the final home run on the August day where Ryan Howard had three home runs. And to me, that is one of the most memorable Phillies games that we've ever had. So when I talk about best individual seasons, perhaps I'm equating that with most memorable. And look, you can make the case that that wasn't the most memorable because the Phillies ultimately didn't make the playoffs. But when we're

talking about an individual season, I don't think we're going to see someone hit 58 home runs again. So I would love to hear from you guys. You can tweet at me at TimKellySports. You can tweet at the podcast at HighHopesPod. And then, of course, continue to subscribe, to share. Jack and James do an incredible job on their version at the podcast at HighHopesPod. And then, of course, continue to subscribe to share.

Jack and James do an incredible job on their version of the podcast, and I'm happy that they've allowed me to do this one. I will talk to you guys soon. I have some great stuff lined up. For now, I will catch you guys later. All-Star Closer, Kenley Jansen, we have a question. What's the best podcast of all time? Baseball isn't boring, baby. I'm Rob Bradford, and every single day I'm sitting down with the biggest names

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