High Hopes: A Phillies Podcast - Ruben Amaro Jr. Tells Us About Roy Halladay

Episode Date: May 29, 2020

The guys are joined by Ruben Amaro Jr. (15:30 in) ahead of the documentary that is being released on Friday from ESPN. They go over his pursuit of Roy and a whole lot more. They also talk about the state of baseball and more. See omnystudio.com/policies/listener for privacy information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hot Cloud Storage on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. This is the high hopes podcast. It's a bunch of baseball nerds talking about the Philadelphia Phillies on radio.com and sports radio. 94 WIP. It is another edition of High Hopes Podcast. And a little extended yo there, Jack, because we got a big guest today.

We do. I would say that was a bit, you know, that was a pretty big yo for the state of baseball. I feel like that should have been a a yo that's reserved for hold on there's a very good point please redo so that well that yo was for ruben amaro jr let me give you a yo for the state of baseball yo what is happening what are we doing jack that is my yo for the state of baseball so that's that's your more serious yo that's your serious yeah that's my yeah that's when you mean in reality it should be like a yuck can i do it i feel like that on the inside that's kind of how i feel when it comes to measuring baseball right now let's dive right into it coming up in a little bit ruben amaro jr is going to join us and we just recorded it a few minutes ago it is um it's

awesome like ruben's really honest i think you're really gonna enjoy it we had a lot of fun talking to him uh we'll get to that in a few minutes but uh we obviously have to start quickly because we have not talked a couple weeks here Jack and man it just sucks being a baseball man right now like it is um where you at obviously right now oh Oh! Oh! Oh! Is that representative of the state of baseball? Yeah, I think we keep that in. Normally, it's going to get it out.

We're going to keep it in. For those who don't know, knock my mic on the ground, and I'm looking at the pool of seltzer that is currently sitting on the rug in my basement right now because I knocked my seltzer over, too. You drink seltzer, and your last name's Seltzer? Oh, buddy, I because i knocked my seltzer over too you drink seltzer and your last name's seltzer oh buddy i drink a lot of seltzer that seems weird right is that is that weird it's a little weird it's a little weird you know it's like deandre swift is fast you know it's like that kind of thing where you kind of are what your name is well it's not like i go it's not like i go to the bathroom and say I'm on the fritz. I care more about my name than you do.

Your name is pretty normal, I guess. Well, it's more normal in society. It's one of those names. Where are you at? I mean, for those who don't know, we're recording May 28th the night of May 28th Thursday night we're at the point where most recent news Major League Baseball submits a proposal to the players a sliding scale where the highest paid players lose the most and the lower payers it's basically clearly a divide and conquer attempt by the owners and as expected it was met with pure disdain and hatred from the players association

and you know a lot of people are very nervous that we might not baseball well the good thing is that i never liked baseball so yeah sure this doesn't this doesn't really matter to me yeah um yeah buddy i'm just about you i you go back and forth like i'll i'll wake up in the morning and i'll be like at work and i'm looking on twitter and i'll see a tweet from jack with like just something to the event like this morning tweeting i don't i don't like i never like baseball anyway or or baseball's gonna screw this up we're not gonna baseball i mean like i it feels like you've you've spiraled at times here well that's just what i do and let me just get this out of the way right now baseball's never coming back ever uh just like this like this bryce harper's never coming here

baseball is never never ever ever coming back it is done get it it out of your head. He wants to play on the West Coast. He doesn't like East Coast stuff. What are the other great things about Bryce? John Middleton can't close. John Middleton? What does Hector Neres and John Middleton have in common?

They both can't close. What does John Middleton, Rob Manford, and Hector Neres have in common? They all can't close uh what does what does john middleton rob manford and hector narrows have in common they all can't close um but i am uh i'm sad i just i just wanted to go away i'm in the i'm in this mindset of just make it stop um i'm honestly like the saddest part about this whole thing is like i've stopped thinking about baseball. I obviously still think about it, but I've gotten so used to life without baseball that, I don't know, I'm starting to go outside.

I'm reading a book now. Wow, look at you. Talk about really maturing. What the hell, baseball? You forced Jack to read. I don't want to read. Actually, I'm reading the Roy Halladay book by Todd Zalucki. I'm halfway through it. You're still in baseball.

Yeah. Yep. Sure am. So, like, I just think, I just don't understand why the players are being punished for no one showing up at the gates. And that's my one big sticking point is why are the players being blamed for no fans showing up at the gates. And that's my one big sticking point is, why are the players being blamed for no fans being there? They are the owners. They don't have to make boatloads of money every single year.

They're going to make it back. These players have, like, every Major League Baseball player has a shelf life. Whether it's four years, five years, ten years, 20 years, or hopefully for Bryce, 20 years. They have a shelf life. They come and go. Teams last forever. And it's like you're going to make the money back.

And honestly, I know this is going to sound surprising coming from me. I would take no baseball this year for these players to fully dig in and get what they think they deserve. That's how fed up I am with where I'm at with these owners because I think the players are such on the right side here that if they don't want to play baseball this year, I think that is totally fine. And that's going to hurt, and it would be awful if there's no baseball this year,

but that's where I'm at. I'm so on their side that if they feel necessary to make their point uh and kind of jump start the the 2020 2022 negotiations and just do it now like just do it and and and fight for what it's worth because it's just they should be playing baseball right now and the fact that they're not is because of the owners it's not because the players it's because of the owners so yeah i i don't like thinking about it because it just annoys me more than anything um and the whole freaking you know they're they're cutting all these minor league teams out and there's a thousand minor leaguers are being being released and it's just like, dude, like I've said before,

but like Williamsport's connection to Philadelphia is because of the Williamsport cross gutters. Like these small towns live for their summer baseball teams. You know, those guys coming in and being grained in the community and they can look back and say, hey, you know, I went to Williamsport, then I went to Lakewood, Clearwater.

Like they go through the journey and it's not just for the Phillies it's for all these teams you know they start in these small towns and work their way up but those small towns like the fact that baseball doesn't care about growing the game in a grassroots kind of way I think

is just stupid and I think they're cutting out a lot of baseball it's not helping grow the game like they're not growing the game by cutting all these minor league players. They're just hurting the game. They're making the pool smaller. The Major League Baseball draft this year is five rounds. It's less than the NFL.

It was 40 rounds last year. They're doing everything they can to make the pool smaller and cut off some watchers and people that want to grow with the game like if you're in greensboro north carolina you gotta watch a minor league baseball team you don't you can't go anywhere to see a major league baseball team all you have is the minor leagues i just think it's so stupid it's all so stupid it's all so bad and listen i think it'll come back. I'm still optimistic. I think there'd be too stupid not to come back.

But I just want it to be over. Yeah, I think quickly on the Meyer Lakers thing, I mean, it's outrageous. I mean, you look at John Fisher, the owner of the Oakland Athletics. He's worth $2.1 billion, I believe, or $2.01 billion or something like that. And it would cost him $1 million to keep his minor leaguers employed for the rest of the season. A million dollars, a million dollars out of 2.1 billion. Um, it's, it's a travesty. Um, totally agree with your stance. I don't know if I go so far as to say I wholeheartedly support the players sitting out

the year, but I'm not going to be mad at the players. I'm at the point where I'm just, I'm mad at everybody. I just, to be this tone deaf, to be fighting in public over this, to have this, I mean, it's just, I'm embarrassed as a baseball fan. I'm embarrassed. I mean, they had an opportunity to be a white knight to, you know, when, when America needed it the most to be the first sport back, to be a shining beacon of normalcy and hope for so many people, 40-plus million out of work, all that stuff, and instead we got millionaires and billionaires fighting about money. I mean, it is a travesty.

It's a joke. I think it's such a bad look for baseball. It's embarrassing. As someone whose favorite sport is baseball, I'm embarrassed by it. The whole thing upsets me. But I do agree with your, your general tenant of what you're saying that, that I, I think the owners are just, I mean, I, I, it makes, honestly, it makes me sick. Like I get sick to my stomach with, with these people who defend the owners.

Like I can't, like, I can't fathom it. Like it doesn't make any sense to me. I don't know how you could possibly see what's happening here and be on their side. It's crazy to me. And the idea that they're negotiating in good faith, they're not. They're not negotiating in good faith. They're undercutting at every turn. They're offering proposals that they know are not going to get accepted, that aren't

in good faith. They just want to look like the good guy and the poor to public opinion. It is so infuriating. And Jack, I think the point you made that I think is the single best point on this issue that I have not heard made enough. And I just, I so agree with you. The idea that an owner can own a team for 30 years, for 40, 50 years, their family can own it for hundreds of years in perpetuity. And players have two years, five years, seven years, 12 years, if they're lucky, 15 years or whatever to make their money, to make their peak earning potential, the thing they do best in this world.

That's it. That's what they have. That's their whole career. You own the team forever if you want to. And your team has increased in value year after year after year after year, record profits for 17 years, whatever. It's a joke. I'm so upset, Jack.

I'm with you at the heart of what you're saying. I couldn't be more with you. I think the owners, it's, Major League Baseball has embarrassed itself in this, and I think the owners are primarily responsible for it. Yeah, and I don't get, like,'t know like i see twitter and the sea of responses and stuff talking about the players and it's like it's like oh start a go fund me for bryce because he's playing for seven and a half million this year or whatever it's like dude the

owners are worth billions like i understand and the whole millionaires versus billionaires thing i get it um but it's not even about price like it's more about it's what is it 60 percent of players make a million dollars or less 65 percent of major league baseball players make a million dollars or less right and when it comes down to that their their pay is getting slashed and the the thing that i was five percent that's right well more than than half i mean let's be real here it's two-thirds of baseball makes a million dollars or less they're not all these superstar millionaire guys yeah and the thing that i was so worried about with the first proposal from the owners was it it kind of and it's gonna end up being this anyway but they're heading

towards the star players like cutting out the smaller players and making them look bad so it's going to turn the whole players union on itself like they're gonna they tried to do with that proposal very clearly they're trying to divide and conquer they're trying to do what the nfl did and get the rank and file guys to support it and the big star is not to be able to have enough voice to stop that yeah but it's not working because as they should have known the players union is the strongest union in america and these guys are not turning on each other they're galvanized they're gonna fight for each other that's why they're the major league baseball player season yep so yeah so we wait but yeah like i i don't

know we still have a good idea just to be clear I do think they will figure it out. I think that in the end, there is too much money to be lost, too much, you know, just too much credibility, integrity, all that type of stuff that is to be lost here in this moment in time. But it's just embarrassing that it's played out this way. Yes. And, like, they've already squandered the opportunity. It feels like they've squandered the opportunity to be the first sport back. It doesn't seem like that's going to happen anymore.

It seems like hockey and basketball are going to be the first ones back. And that's just dumb. Like, that's just, like, poor. It's just all poor leadership on Rob Manfred's part. Like, he should have been from the get-go being like, listen, we got to figure this out. We shouldn't have let this all happen in public. I mean, like all of them, like he should have put his foot down immediately.

The first leak, and granted, I'm sure he's behind some of them. He has been a disaster in this. But the moment that anything leaks, he should have been like, all 30 owners in a room would be like, yo, like on a Zoom call, whatever they do. Like this can't happen. Like what are you doing? You are hurting our sport.

Like Manfred has done a horrendous job handling this. Well, I also don't think the owners care about baseball, and I don't think they care about public opinion, and all they care about is having money in their pocket. Yeah, I agree. So like they don't – like honestly, I don't think the owner, I don't think the owners care if baseball comes back this year because I think that they are so bottom line that they probably make more money

or keep most of their money if this doesn't come out. I think they definitely do. I think they definitely do, yeah. So when they have that option that they there's a chance that they just take that option um but either way like if the players don't get screwed now they're gonna get screwed in free agency and then they're getting screwed in the 2022 cva like this is all heading towards a work stoppage it feels like i don't know i'm over it whatever yeah you know what i'm over it too i don't think people even want to hear us talk about anymore we you know our thoughts you know our points we're done with it jack just no just no

just know that we're sad just know that we're so sad and that uh for the purposes of the powers that we have here baseball's never coming back it's never happening again we'll leave it at that uh let's get to something a lot more fun as uh ruben amaro took some time jack took some time with us uh we had a lot of fun talking a lot of roy holiday obviously with the 10-year anniversary of the perfect game on friday of this week um a lot of time talking holiday we talked a little bit about the current situation and a whole lot more so here it is ruben amaro jr joining us earlier and joining us now it is our distinct pleasure and let me just say flat out I think in my opinion no offense to some of the other guests we've had the biggest guest that we have ever had on the high oaks podcast former general

manager of the Philadelphia Phillies former player for for the Phillies, a Philly guy, one and only Mr. Ruben Amaro Jr. Ruben, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me, guys. It's very high praise. I don't know if I can live up to it. I'm just speaking facts here, Ruben. It's true, a Philly guy through and through. We'll get to more of that later.

But first of all, like we said thank you for taking some time to talk to jack and i we know that the high hopes listeners have long wanted us to get you on so this is exciting for for us and for the listeners yeah this is the podcast for the disease phillies fans by disease phillies fans literally that is our slogan that is that is our slogan nothing nothing wrong with being a disease Philly fan. I've been one for my entire life. Yeah, born and raised Northeast Philly, Philly's own. Reuben, we're going to get into some other stuff later, but we wanted to start with some Roy Halladay talk, obviously.

Tomorrow, we're recording this on May 28th, May 29th, the 10-year anniversary of the perfect game that he threw, the documentary coming out on E60 Imperfect. So there's a lot to get into with Roy Halladay. So let's just start at the top. Obviously, you were the general manager of the team taking over for Gillick after 08. You find yourself in the opportunity that you can actually trade for Roy Halladay. Can you take us through?

And I know you had an opportunity to get him in 2009, and then heading into 2010 you get him. Can you take us through what it was like to have the opportunity to get Halladay and weighing the risk-reward of what it would take to get him and just the process of bringing Roy Halladay to Philly? So I lived in the era when I was playing in Philadelphia in 92, 93, and then 96, 97, 98, when pitching was king, right? Atlanta was the team. And they had an extraordinary run of, what is it, 14 division championships. And it was really all about pitching. And so in my mind, as I grew in

baseball, that was the same thought process that I had. It was all about pitching and trying to get the best starting pitcher you could possibly get because that would give you an opportunity to win every single year. So with that in mind, having known and seen Roy Halladay operate as an assistant GM, watching him operate as a young man and becoming who he was whilst we were playing in Clearwater. We saw him a lot in Dunedin. There was a lot to be impressed by. And then I started learning about the legend,

what he was as far as work ethic, what he was as a teammate and those sorts of things. And then seeing that Toronto was not in a position to really be able to give them kind of what they wanted, which is to be on a championship caliber club, I thought it would be a great opportunity to maybe get him. And I think one of the very first meetings I had with David Montgomery was about acquiring certain players. And I remember talking to David at the time very, very early in my tenure that if there was one player that we could acquire,

that player would be Roy Halladay. Now, obviously, we didn't know that was going to happen, but that was the one that was kind of my, you know, great cashier. I don't call it my white whale, which was probably the truth. And as we got into the 2009 season, we knew we needed some higher level starting pitching. We knew we had a good club.

We knew that we were a championship caliber club, but we needed more pitching. And we ended up, you know, really pushing the envelope on the pitching end and looking for that top of the rotation or close to top of the rotation guy. And Roy Halladay was our target. Or three or four other guys that we were out there looking at who were, you know, top of the rotation type talent.

And clearly we thought that we had an opportunity to get Roy. And I had, you know, several conversations with J.P. Ricciardi at the time. Couldn't get to the finish line. And then we ended up breaking left and picking up Cliff Lee. And it was a deal that we thought went very, very well for us and obviously had a lot of success with that move and not giving up a ton of that talent. It was a lot of talent, but it didn't really bite us in the butt

until maybe later on. Carrasco ended up being a quality pitcher, but it didn't happen until much, much, much further down the road. Then when we had the opportunity to get him in the offseason, to get Roy in the offseason, we felt like

that was the right thing to do. Antopolis became the GM in Toronto. We had some discussions at the GM meetings. We kicked around a lot of possibilities. We did try to re-sign Cliff Lee to a longer-term deal. I think we were uncomfortable with the amount of money that he was asking for at the time, and we had an opportunity to go get to Roy, and we did.

One of the premises, unfortunately, about doing that was that we kept dumping talent out of our system, and so we tried to replenish it, knowing that we would have to probably trade Cliff to get him. David Montgomery and I talked about it quite a bit. Unfortunately, it was one of those decisions that probably should not have been made. And we would have loved to have kept both of them. But we needed to replenish our organization. And we ended up getting three very, very talented young men, but who were much, much further away from the major leagues

than probably we should have made in the players that we got in that deal. And obviously Roy came to us and we got him, and that was important to us and important to the organization, but it was at some cost. It was at some cost, and unfortunately, it didn't totally turn out the way we wanted it to turn out, but still we got Roy, and he felt like we had in him probably one of the best, if not the best, starting pitchers in baseball.

So you had mentioned that Roy was your white whale, and understandably so. I mean, he was probably the best pitcher of his generation. How hard was it not to just give the prospects up in 2009 and get them there? Were you devastated when you weren't able to acquire him in 2009? No. Like I said, we had parallel discussions at the time with Mark Bischofaro and Cleveland. We knew we wanted to get Roy,

but at the time I think JP was pretty much set on the level of talent being really, really high. We just could not give up both of our best players. In my mind, if I recall correctly, it was Kyle Drabeck and Dominic Brown, and they were literally our two best prospects that we had in our organization, pitching and position-wise, and we would have to give up more. And so I wasn't prepared to do that, and the talent that we ended up giving up in the Lee deal

versus the talent we would have had to give up in the Roy deal, I think, was just disproportionate. And so, I mean, it ended up being a very good deal for us. Cliff pitched extraordinarily well. I couldn't imagine that Roy would even have pitched as well as the way Cliff did because he was absolutely lights out for us. And he pitched extraordinarily well in the playoffs and World Series and all that. So I wasn't really disappointed. I guess, you know,

you just have to move forward, right? He, he was the guy I wanted, but, but, you know, the thought process and some of the discussions and,

you know, we thought maybe we can, we can still acquire them. It wasn't, it wasn't the end all, he didn't end up getting moved. So we had an opportunity to maybe get them later on, we fortunately for us we did uh going back to moving again forward in time to 2010 or heading into 2010 you just talked about it seems like you have a little

regret about the decision to trade cliff lee after trading for holiday and i know that that's i think that's something for a lot of phillies fans that in the moment we were surprised by, you know, especially coming off the World Series, what Cliff had done. And look, obviously Cliff Lee came back. You know, Cliff Lee loved it here, clearly. Can you, just a little more on that regret you had. So in hindsight, do you think you could have or should have held on to Lee instead of trading him?

I think in that respect, obviously with the fact that with the talent that we got at back, I probably wish we should have stayed with him. But it was understandable, the thought process that we had. I think, you know, you don't make deals in a vacuum. And we had sucked out so much talent from our system during the course of that time trying to continue to win, which was my goal and which isn't as sexy to do now, nowadays.

I don't know how many teams are actually trying to win. I don't know that that's necessarily the case with every club. But I always thought that the job of the GM was trying to put all the best products you could possibly put on the field to try to win. But that said, you know, to me, had we held on to him at that time, you know, it would have been great. But it did open up some opportunities to get guys like Roy Oswalt and, you know, we ended up, you know,

we had Pedro Martinez aboard and stuff like that. But it gave us opportunity to do some other things. And obviously with our success and our continued success, we ended up signing him back anyway. So mean in retrospect yes we would love to have kept them uh and i think and and then secondarily i think that it would have been um it would have behooved us to to uh to maybe get prospects that were closer to the major leagues problem with that was that um had we allowed two or three or five days to to happen and the expectation then would have been for our fan base that we would have had both guys on board and we almost had to

try to make the move and make it seem like it was a three-way deal because the expectation of a fan would have been like what I can't you know, this guy's supposed to be, we're supposed to have the greatest rotation in the world, and we have to have Cliff Lee. And the reality of it is we really didn't want to try to replenish our system with some three quality guys who were too far away from the major leagues and were very, very talented kids. But, you know, with talent, with young talent,

you just never know where they're going to there and unfortunately they didn't really they didn't really pan out for us they did give us a great nickname though the monster i mean that's a pretty good nickname for the guy so so rube what was uh what was your first impression of doc you know he comes here in 2010 you obviously knew the legend legend of Doc by that point, but actually getting to know him, what was your first impression of Doc? Pretty very, very serious. Very humble. Very quiet.

Went about his business. I think that he didn't want to ruffle feathers. He knew that we were basically a veteran club. I think in Toronto, there were times when he had to take some people under his wing and to teach them some things. But we had one of those clubs where he could just do his work, lead by example,

go about his business and try to prepare as well as he possibly could and hope that, you know, people next to him and underneath him and people working with him would notice. And one of those guys who benefited from it was Kyle Kendrick, who ended up having a pretty damn good career, and I think a lot of it. And he wasn't nearly as talented as Roy, but had some success for us and won a ton of games.

I think he won something like 50 games for us. And a lot of it was because he listened to Roy and tried to mimic a lot of things that he did and tried to mimic a lot of things that he did and tried to work as hard as he could. And I think he rubbed off on some people in a pretty special way. The thing that I take from Roy Halladay is the accountability. I've never been around an athlete who is more accountable for his performance than Roy Halladay. He would text me towards the end of his career when he was struggling,

I think physically, that he would apologize to me for not holding up his end of the bargain. Wow. Because he knew that we were trying to do everything we possibly could to win. And for an athlete of that stature, a person of that stature to have done that to me, I mean, I was, like, shocked when I got these texts. He would pitch, like, a game, kind of a mediocre game.

He'd go five innings or five and a third. He'd get knocked around a little bit in 12. And he would send me texts saying, Ruben, I'm not holding up my end of the bargain. I'm sorry. I'm letting you down. I'm letting the team down. I'm like, Roy, you're the last person on the planet that needs to send me

any kind of apology because I know that the time and the effort, I mean, from 5 o'clock in the morning during spring training to the end of the day, and then the work and the preparedness that he had with him physically and mentally, I mean, just ridiculous. Off the charts to the point where there's nothing that he could do. I mean, for me, he walked on water. So I was so fortunate to have him on our club and to have him impact us the way he did.

You just mentioned about like Doc's intensity. I always wonder this. Who did you think was more intense, Chase or Doc? Great call. 1A and 1 and 1A. As far as their will to win, I think it's neck and neck. As far as their talent ability, neck and neck, I mean, I can't, you know, they're two of the

most, I mean, if you were going to dream up having an athlete in Philadelphia, those would be the two guys you want to have. I mean, no disrespect to the other guys. We had tremendous talent. Jimmy Rollins was outstanding. Ryan Howard was the best offensive player

in baseball for about five years. You know, Cole Hamels was outstanding. Ryan Howard was the best offensive player in baseball for about five years. You know, Cole Hamels was outstanding. I mean, Cliff Lee was excellent for us at times. I mean, there are so many players and so many people that we can talk about. Jason Wirth, Shane Victorino, et cetera. It's Chooch. But the reality of it is when you talk about talent and desire to win at all costs and to do it in a way that they did it to prepare and to be the best they could possibly be, I can't imagine there are two better athletes in our organization ever. Yeah, and like you said, what a great point.

Two more perfect athletes for this city. I mean, you grew up here. You know, I mean, that's what we care about here. We're blue-collar. We care about work ethic, you know, running every ball at all. It's something that they were the perfect exemplifications of that. All right, Ruben, tomorrow, as you mentioned at the top, is the 10-year anniversary of the perfect game.

Only 23 perfect games in the history of baseball. You could argue 24 if Jim Joyce hadn't, you hadn't screwed Galarraga out of one. But 23 in the history of baseball, you see that happen on your team. And then later in the year, the guy throws a no-hitter in the playoffs. Can you talk a little bit about your emotions in those moments? Watching Halliday, this guy you brought to Philly, be literally the best you can be in the sport what what was it like to be there for that and to watch these just highest of the high type of moments play out yeah well i was the assistant gm when eric milton threw his no hitter i believe he threw a no hitter

and then millwood threw a no hitter for us and i was assistant gm. And I had tears running down my face both times. But I happened to be in the stands in Miami when Roy threw his perfect game in Miami on a pretty warm night, and a night where there weren't very many fans until later on. Well, that sounds like most Marlins games. Yeah. Right, right. And there's a concert going on so that people start filtering late but um you know i was there with my brother my half-brother ruben andres who was living down there my dad lived down there my dad didn't go to that game i think he was working or something anyway he um roy is pitching and it's probably like the third

or fourth inning. And I was up in the, I was up in the box and I came downstairs to sit. And fortunately I'd gotten a seat with my brother right behind a plate. We've got a scout seat, which I typically don't get. I usually sit in the club box or what have you. And I was sitting behind the plate and watching this happen. And it gets to about the fifth or sixth inning or so. And I'm starting to calculate.

I look up on the board. I'm like, my goodness, good game. It was a one-nothing game, I think it was. And I'm thinking to myself, you know, I don't know if I remember any base runners. I don't see any hits on the board. I don't know if there's any base runners. And from like, I don't know, maybe halfway through like the fifth or sixth inning, I think it was,

my brother and I were talking and chatting, chatting away. We went dead silent. And we literally did not speak a word until the very last pitch was made. And I remember Paulino coming up. I remember Paul, because we both knew what was going on. And we just sat in our seats next to each other and just watched the game and we didn't say a word we didn't move no one went to the bathroom no one got a coke no one got to do anything we uh we sat there and watched the game and then when paulino came up i mean i i never squirmed so much in my life when he stepped to the plate freddie gonzalez had thrown three i

think three straight pinch hitters at roy just to give him a different look. And Paulino comes up and I'm thinking to myself, he treated this guy in spring training. He gets, goes, bounces from the Giants and the three-way and goes to the Marlins. I'm thinking to myself, this cannot happen. I gave this guy away and we made this deal. And this guy's going to break this damn thing up.

And sure enough, Juan Castro makes a hell of a play in the hole and spins and throws him out. And I'll tell you what, man, you talk about joy and just elation. My brother and I hugging each other, crying the whole nine yards. It was an amazing moment. I'll never forget it. And, you know, and even more extraordinary was then in Cincinnati,

what he did in the playoffs against a team that was a playoff team and one of the best offensive teams in the game. And for him to have done that in the very first time he'd ever pitched in a playoff game, which is all he wanted to do in his entire career while he was with Toronto and never had, for him to have done what he did and pitched the way he did against that team was just absolutely amazing. Even more amazing

I think under the circumstances. Hey Rube, I really have a tough time talking about 2011 Game 5, but I just have to ask you, any other night, are those Abanez and Utley balls out? Do you think they would have been home runs on any other night? I those Abanez and Utley balls out? Do you think they would have been home runs on any other night?

I think that they probably would. I think there was a little wind that held those balls up, and they were really, really deflating. I think both those balls were hit well. I thought they both had chances to go out on the ballpark. And even after the last pitch was made, I still believe that we were going to win that game. So did we. And it was disappointing.

And it was disappointing in a lot of ways. Shoot, it was probably one of the biggest disappointments, not just for the fans, but for my career. Because, you know, had we gone on pretty well, gone and done what we thought we could do, I may not be talking to you guys right now. I might still have my job. But the reality of it is that we, you know,

we ran into a club that just seemed to play better and the ball rolled better for them. And that one game, anytime you're in a playoff situation, you know, there's an opportunity to lose. And Carpenter pitched his ass off, and how they pitched extraordinarily well, but, you know, somebody's got to win a baseball game. And, you know, they went on and won it.

They didn't win it, obviously. It was crushing. Yeah, I just can't, it's so crazy because I'm reading the Doc book by Todd Zlecki that recently came out, and just him and Chris Carpenter being, like, best friends, and then for that thing to happen, just, it's almost unbelievable. Carpenter being, like, best friends, and then for that thing to happen, it's almost unbelievable. So, Rube, last thing on Doc.

Do you have a favorite personal Doc story that you could share with us? Well, I think the fact that he – two things. I mean, we talked about already the fact that he would text me after games. I mean, I'd never been with an athlete who would do anything like that and never had, and may never again, about this accountability. I think secondarily, one of the things that people don't know much about, once he was finished pitching for us, and I had told Doc that I wanted, I told him flat out that as long as I was a GM or part of the organization, that he would have a job with us in whatever capacity he wanted to. I thought he would be a great mentor.

With the things that he went through and the things that he studied and the way he got back and the mental toughness that he portrayed and had during the course of his career. And he came to us, I think it was the, I believe it was the spring training of 2014. We had a series of meetings prior. During the course of spring training, we had half-day workouts, and then we would bring, unfortunately for the staff, I would bring the staff for later meetings just to talk about each phase of our game, offensively, defensively, outfield, infield, and pitching.

And I would invite Roy back for some of this pitching stuff just to have our guys pick his brain. And I said, Roy, just please be there and talk about your thought process and how we can help some of these young guys that were now coming through our system to build their ability to compete at the major league level. And it was being conducted by Bob McClure, the pitching module. And Roy was as quiet as he was when he worked. He was really, really like jibber-jabbering i mean he was loving being able to express some of the thought process some of the things that

he learned ways to motivate and those sorts of things that people don't know anything about but he was just absolutely extraordinary in those meetings and just being able to listen to him. I mean, you couldn't hear a pin drop when he spoke. And he was very open to doing that. He helped us with the pitching. I think one of the off-seasons, we had a pitching camp, and we

brought some of our best pitching prospects in, and he went and talked to them and gave them Harvey's book and mentored them in a lot of ways. And he was just absolutely extraordinary. And people don't know that much, those parts. But he wanted to teach. He really wanted it.

He had a passion for it. And it's unfortunate that people are not able to learn from him and to be able to be around him because he would have been an unbelievable and was an unbelievable resource for us. Ruben Amaro Jr. Thank you so much for joining us. Last one for me. And again, thank you for the time. We really can't tell you how much we appreciate.

I know our listeners appreciate it. We'd be remiss if we have you on and don't mention what's going on right now and kind of get your opinion on this. Obviously a lot of acrimony, a lot of animosity between major league baseball and the players right now and kind of get your opinion on this. Obviously, a lot of acrimony, a lot of animosity between Major League Baseball and the players right now, this whole situation, will there be baseball, won't there be baseball? What is your take on this whole situation right now? And are you at all concerned that we might not have a baseball season? Well, I am concerned about it,

obviously, but I do think that cooler heads will prevail. Listen, negotiations are not always happy-go-lucky. They can be very acrimonious. I've thrown a lot of phones in my day. I've still gotten deals done. And, you know, listen, it's an emotional situation. We've never been in a situation. No one has ever seen anything the likes of this, ever. And so this is all new territory.

And the fact that they have a, you know, basic agreement, the negotiation coming up, you know, there's a whole lot of factors that are involved here. And, you know, who gets the leverage? Who's got leverage? Who doesn't have leverage? Who, you know, what is equitable? I think that there's some very smart people on both sides of the coin here. And I do believe if you were going to, I don't know, I guess my percentage on this, I think I'm at 60% that they'll still get something done.

I don't think it's going to be without some difficulty and some give and take and give on both sides. My view on this is the owners are going to lose a lot of money. It's a matter of, like, how much money do they want to lose and still play baseball? And the players are going to probably lose a lot of money. It's a matter of whether they're going to want to – what is it they want to lose, quote-unquote lose,

and what's going to be equitable. I think we're hopeful that they can get the yes because I think we need baseball. You know, I grew up in baseball. We want to have sport. We want to, you know, move forward. We want to deal with this virus and this pandemic in a different way and to focus on some other things and some joy.

But, you know, I think it's going to have to be safety first, and I think it's going to have to be safety first and I think it's going to have to be a deal where where at the end of the day no one's really happy but it got it gets done and then and the rest of the world can be happy because we need baseball back so I do think it's going to happen I think it's not going to be without some some difficulty I would like to see it be more quietly done because I do not like public opinion to be involved in this. Especially when it's millionaires versus billionaires and 40 million people are out of work. It just is not a good look. It isn't a good look. There's no question about that. I wish there was a way to do it in a more, you know, I think most of the deals that

get done between the union and the commissioner's office, I think it in a more, you know, I think most of the deals that get done between the union and, and the commissioner's office, I think it is a major league baseball. I think they're done quietly. I do think that there's a mutual respect here between Rob Manfred and Tony Clark. And I do hope that, and, and to all the officers that each side has, I just think that I just think that it's going to be a difficult endeavor, but I think ultimately we can get something done. But, again, I mean, listen, we're talking about unprecedented time.

We talked about this prior. I mean, we've never been in this situation ever again. We hope that we never have to be in this situation ever again and that we can get past it and move forward. And I hope baseball adds to the joy of getting through this process that's been really, really difficult for everyone. Hey, Rube, last one for me, and I have to ask this. So back in 2012, how come you guys weren't scouting a 6'1 right-hander

that threw 82-84? I had one of the best cutters in the state and I went 2-0 in the high school playoffs. Where were the Phillies at? I'm so sorry for my co-host. I don't know if I can apologize enough. We try to do

the best we can. You did. You didn't miss out. You didn't miss out. We missed on some guys. I have a feeling maybe we missed on you. That might be one of the reasons why I'm talking to you guys now, too.

We left a couple stones unturned. That's a problem. Listen, I would say so. I mean, so what if I stopped playing college baseball off my sophomore year? You could have had me first. Another swing and a problem. Listen, I would say so. I mean, so what if I stopped playing college baseball off my sophomore year? You could have had me first. God, another miss. Another swing and a miss. I'm sorry.

Another reason for the fans to get on me. Don't beat yourself up, Ruben. Don't beat yourself up about that one. Well, Ruben, thank you again. Seriously, we can't tell you how much we appreciate it. And it's really been a joy to talk to you. And, you know, we're following your work and excited to see what you're doing. And just thank you.

We can't tell you how much we appreciate you. You've been very generous with your time. Thanks, Ruben. No problem, James, Jack. We're happy to do it anytime. Well, that was fun. I love Ruben. He was great, Jack.

And, you know, look, I've openly been critical of Ruben in the past as a general manager and all that, but I thought he was really honest with us. And, I mean, when he was talking about openly saying that he has some regrets about how the trading Cliff Lee, I mean, that is, for me, forever been one of my longest questions as a Philadelphia Phillies fan is, why the hell did you trade Cliff Lee away? What you thinking we could add Halliday and Lee the year earlier

why why why why why why and even forgetting the fact that none of those guys turned into anything they got back from Seattle um I thought it was really cool and interesting to hear Ruben kind of acknowledge some of those same feelings and you could tell that he kind of regretted how they went about it and um just across the board, I thought he was great. I thought it was really good. I thought it was fun. Yeah, he told some fun holiday stories and really just. The game story was amazing.

Yeah, I think that. I mean, obviously, we knew the legend of Roy Halladay, but being able to hear from someone who was with him pretty much day to day for his entire Philly's career and that it kind of pursued him for a long time he's his white whale as he as he would say uh just hearing some doc stories and i think that you know i i hope the listeners appreciate the good old doc stories because i feel like doc stories have become legendary um and i'm so sad that he's gone and i tell you what like the the documentary is gonna be a tough one to get through tomorrow night um just just because like doc meant document a lot to me uh

and he's like the perfect guy for uh like talk about two perfect guys to grow up idolizing in this city i mean uh for for baseball players like utley and and halliday um just like two players like Utley and and Halliday um just like two grinders um so just told some fun stories and I think he I think the main takeaway from the interview is that he deeply regretted um not pursuing me in high school uh he clearly he clearly saw that as a as a very big mistake so I appreciate him writing he didn't really write his wrong he didn't admit that he was wrong but i mean if tyler cloyd could have done it i could have done it i like that take it's that's a hard one to argue with right there the tyler cloyd side of it um all right well before we get out of here speaking of holiday we got to talk to to ruben a little bit about it what

um what are your just as general to start what's kind of your your feel about you know this holiday doc coming out tomorrow just the 10-year anniversary the perfect game where we're kind of at with roy right now well i i still i still think it's kind of crazy where i was for the perfect game so uh for those who don't know i was a boy scout back in the day and we were getting ready like we were preparing to go on a big canoe trip or whatever so to kind of get our stamina or whatever to to you know be ready to for long canoe trips i was on the bank of the delaware river uh for the for the holiday perfect game i was laying in a tent yeah i was laying in a tent uh just i think i was i think i didn't i don't think

i saw any of it uh i didn't listen to any of it i kind of just got off the river and got in my tent checked my phone and it was like roy halliday is doing what and i just remember i found the found the final out and i was like that's crazy so uh that was my this is my holiday perfect game uh memories also game one of the the stanley cup finals in 2010 so that was magical um but yeah it's gonna be tough and you know brandy holiday has just been unbelievable through this whole thing what a rock it's unbelievable yeah and she's just she's just doing it she's she she she's not letting the story you know take its own like take its own path she's she's trying to control it and that's that's great i mean and i think what she says about how no one's perfect because like roy halliday was for those for those

on the outside like roy halliday was perfect mean, he was an unbelievable pitcher, worked his ass off, had a family, never had off-the-field issues, was greatness personified, and he looked like what perfection was. And I think she wants to tell the story of no one's perfect, everyone has struggles, don't be afraid to admit that you have struggles. And I think her message is really powerful and i i think tomorrow is going to be really really tough to get through i mean the whole question of do you think he was an addict i mean i almost started you know welling

up just watching the trailer i agree so so listen no one's perfect and it's yeah i i'm very sad roy's gone i think he would have done great in his post career and i'm both not looking forward to watching and looking forward to watching yeah i feel the same way and i think the point you make is is so true is that um i think that brandy holiday realizing that she had an opportunity through telling her husband's story in this way to potentially help other people who are going through similar things that Roy went through is, I mean, that takes strength, man. Like that takes a level of toughness that neither, at least me for sure, and I'm guessing both of us can't comprehend because we haven't been through that type of thing. I'm so impressed with her. I'm so impressed with how she's handled this, the strength, the fortitude that she has shown. And again, to do this, to be able to go and talk about it like that publicly in this type of situation, seemingly it appears to be so candid and so honest in order to help other people who might be facing these things

is really impressive. And back to what you were saying, you know, for me and Halladay, you know, I remember the perfect game I caught the last three innings live because I heard what was going on. I was able to get to a TV and watch the last three innings. And I think with the – And Ruben pointed this out, and I think it's pretty clear. The no-hitter is even more impressive. He did it in a playoff game against a much better team,

and he only allowed one base runner. It was so close to being a perfect game. We all forget that. But I think the other cool thing about the playoff no-hitter, at least for me, is that it's one of those things where when you and I watch every Phillies game, for the most part, 150 out of 162 or whatever, and start to finish or whatever. But a lot of people don't get the opportunity to watch every game start to finish. But when it's the playoffs, you do.

You're there for it. You're watching it. For me, at least, I've never been to see a no hitter live i wasn't watching the tv when mal holland did it i didn't see uh the first few innings of the combined one i saw some of cole's but that roy holiday hitter is literally no hitter is literally the only no hitter in my life that i have watched from the first pitch to the last that i've never missed a pitch of any no hitter in my life that I have watched from the first pitch to the last that I've never missed a pitch of any no hitter. That's the only one I've ever seen start to finish because of the situation, because I'm a Phillies fan and all that. Um, and I just think that's really unique.

It's a really cool thing. And I do think it's one of the most for him to, for the first time, get to the playoffs and have that type of performance where, and it was, you know, you watching it, you like, you felt it quickly. You're like, Oh buddy, like this guy's got his stuff today. Like this is peak holiday.

Um, and it was magical. It was magical to watch. Oh dude. I mean the note, I still think he had better stuff for the no hitter than the perfect game. And a hundred percent. It's the best game I've ever watched pitched in my opinion,

like a single game that I've watched pitch. That's the best game i've ever watched pitched in my opinion like a single game that i've watched pitched that's the best game i've ever seen him throw well and that and that reds team was just better offensively than that marlins team um yeah i i watched every pitch of it it was uh i mean it was four o'clock so i was home or five o'clock yeah yeah so i was home from high school or whatever and yeah, it was just like the ninth inning, I was just saying to myself, is he really going to throw a no-hitter in his first playoff start? Because if you remember, like, the lead-up to that was just like,

oh, my God, Roy Halladay's first playoff start. Like, all he's been working for his whole entire career was finally getting to the playoffs and finally being able to break through and have a moment in the playoffs. And it's like, really? This guy guy's gonna go out and throw a no hitter his first try it's so silly it's so unbelievable he is he's awesome so uh yeah the no hitter was crazy i i don't know whatever happened to jay bruce and i hope he had a horrible but the fact that that wasn't called a strike. I think people forget that.

I think people forget Jay Bruce, the only person who reached base against Reade in that game. Also Votto, talking about how, so Votto I guess in the fourth, he stepped out and he kept stepping out and even like a 1-1 count, he stepped out on Roy and Roy

came up to him the next year at the All-Star game and said, i wanted to walk to home plate and punch you in the throat which which i thought was amazing so uh yeah roy was an insane insane competitor and listen it uh todd's lucky's book on roy holiday is awesome i don't ever read ever but i have some time and uh i've thoroughly enjoyed it it's called doc and it's available now. And if you ever want to know more about Roy and his whole story, it's just a really,

really interesting and good book. Speaking of which, one of my favorite Roy factoids, and I'm sure this is one that would be up your alley at Jack. Do you know who Roy holiday struck out more than any other battery ever faced? Struck out one more bad event what was that which batter did roy holiday strike out the most in his major league career uh

derrick cheater derrick cheater yeah derrick cheater is quoted in the book like just how awful he was against against roy isn't that a while i mean that's wild like that's a wow i know i know uh that's that's up your brand's alley yes well didn't he have one season where he uh struck out more guys than he walked actually that probably happened a lot there's some there's some ridiculous strike out way more yeah well obviously no there's something oh he had more he had 219 and 30 30 walks in his 2010 season oh no no i messed it up i messed it up he had very clearly because most players strike him i know i know i know except for me in college but uh he made more he had more starts than walks in the season wow that's pretty

amazing yeah that's an amazing factor i know he beat the Yankees five times in one year, which is pretty wild. Also, one of three pitchers in Major League Baseball history to win a Cy Young and start an All-Star game in both the American and National League, which is a pretty cool factor. I think he's won six to win a Cy Young in both leagues. And he still has the most complete games in baseball since 2010? Yeah, isn't that wild? Just wild.

Yeah, he's the best. And I feel like I had one more. I don't know. There's so many crazy Roy Halladay stats. I'm actually so glad he was the first ballot Hall of Famer. Because you would have thought he would have got held back because of the win totals and that stuff. like he was the best pitcher of the generation like after after pedro it was how they right i mean like kershaw sure had a had a little run there in

2014 ish like kershaw verlander but like howaday Halladay from 2003 to 11 was just the best pitcher in baseball and I wasn't even really close like Verlander kind of had a little moment towards the back end and obviously he's continued on from now but like there was no better pitcher in baseball and he looked like a Hall of Famer and you know sometimes

Hall of Fame comes down to eye test and he crushed the eye test I'm so with you crushed the eye test. Yeah. I'm so with you. Crush the eye test and crush the numbers. And who knows if he wasn't pitching in Toronto all those years, you know, what kind of numbers he could have had not pitching in that AL East in the heyday of the AL East,

not pitching for a bad blue Jays team for the majority of his career. Yeah. Those are the kinds of things you never know. But like you said before, got finally got the opportunity to pitch in the playoffs and, you know, grabbed it and ran with it in a way no one ever saw. Any other final thoughts on Halliday before we get out of here, Fritzy?

No, but I still – Oh, I'm sure you have a final thought about something else, right? Yes, yes. But 34 is still my number. I still love the number 34. And I still contest that if i was given the number 34 when i got to bloomsburg and not number 29 i may be in the big leagues but i think it's a fair contention my friend yes i would agree so that's that's it i'm both not looking forward to and

looking forward to tomorrow night yeah and i'm sure we'll talk about it uh you know on the pod and all that but um everyone you know i'm sure it's worth the time and i'm sure we'll talk about it on the pod and all that. But everyone, I'm sure it's worth the time. And I'm sure it'll be a tough watch, but a really good watch as well. All right, Fritzy, what else you got? All right, so first thing, fresh batch of high hops is available starting tomorrow at Four Fingers Brewing Company. Come on out. Try to talk Phillies with my dad. It's always an interesting conversation because he doesn't know anything about the phillies but he could try um but seriously there's been a couple high

high hopes listeners coming out the last couple weekends so we really really appreciate that um and there's a fresh batch of high hops just waiting for you to come pick up uh i don't know if you saw james but on starting monday n Monday NBC Sports Philly is rerunning the entire 08 playoff run which I cannot wait for I don't really remember that, like I remember

most of it, but just being able to watch game 2 or game 3 of the Brewers and Dodgers series and remembering all that stuff is going to be a lot of fun so I can't wait for that or game three of the Brewers and Dodgers series, and remembering all that stuff is going to be a lot of fun. So I can't wait for that. And my final, final thought is I've officially found my guy in the LB draft. Oh, buddy.

Yes, I, of course, love. I still love Ed Howard, and I still love Garrett Mitchell. And if they are there, Ed Howard will probably be there, but Garrett Mitchellitchell is probably not gonna be there but if he's there i'd take him anyway my guy is nick bits go who is from central bucks east and he is a local guy i don't know if you know this james but i own central bucks Oh, did you? Oh, my God. Best pitcher performance of my life was against Central Bucks East. 2011, you know, went eight innings, one run. Just pure, utter dominance. But, yeah, so he's from Central Bucks East, and he throws 97,

and he's already got a plus curveball and good feel for a changeup. Fastball explodes like Scherzer's. Like, you know how Scherzer has that extra giddy-up? Well, I think he has that too. And I just, for the Phillies to be able to draft Bitsko, you know, he reclassified from 2021 for the 2020 draft class. And in 2021, he was projected to be like a top three pick. And you get him a year later, or a year year earlier and a year younger at 17 versus 18.

I just think it's such a no-brainer for them to kind of be all in on him at 15. And from everything I've been hearing through the grapevine, he's not going to make it past 15. So if he's on the board there and a couple of the guys are off the board, like a Garrett Crochet, which is just an awful name, but if he's not there and Mitchell's not there, I think Bitsko's going to be the pick. So it's nice to see that the Phillies have the same eye for talent as i do

but i'm all in on nick bitts go like i i legitimately i know this is gonna sound ridiculous but i think he's gonna be a hall of famer and stop stop man what a ridiculous thing to say i read honestly i read the first half of the doc book and i was like this this is bits go oh my god all right we're done i'm done that's it like like i'm out i know you probably think i'm kidding but i'm not kidding jack the reason i'm out is because i know you're not kidding no i can't i can't i can't you got anything else nope that's it thank goodness because after that one i gotta be done um thank you to reuben tomorrow jr uh for coming on and being so generous with his time we were hoping for like 10 minutes with reuben he gave us 30 so that was really cool so thank you

to him uh for that and um like we we continue to say there will never be baseball so you know yeah baseball's baseball is going to san francisco these only wants to play out west smash mouth is tweeting about baseball going to san francisco just you know that's where we're at all right uh it's been real again thank you to reuben tomorrow jr we'll be back soon and uh thank you we we love high hopes nation we miss you guys we love you and uh thanks for coming as always with us so until then he's friends