High Hopes: A Phillies Podcast - The High Hopes Phillies Podcast: Is This Really All Kapler's Fault?

Episode Date: September 25, 2018

James Seltzer and Jack Fritz are back in studio today to talk about a Phillies team that is at .500 and have lost 30 of their last 45 games. Has Gabe Kapler lost the team? Is this really all his fault? Jack also unveils a Mike Trout take that should excite all of you.  See omnystudio.com/policies/listener for privacy information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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My plan starts with soil health. And part of mine includes biodiversity. Why care so much? Because Canadian dairy farmers hold themselves to higher standards. That's what's behind the blue cow logo. Dairy Farmers of Canada. Yo, it is another edition of the High Hopes Podcast, a despondent High Hopes Podcast.

The hopes are not high. The hopes are low. The hopes are low. Despite the name of the podcast, the hopes at the moment, quite low. We'll get into it. But first, let me welcome in my guy, the man who was booed on stage at the Electric Factory, Mr. Jack Fritz. Fritzy.

I was booed on stage. And James, happy Adubo Herrera year for you. It's your birthday today. How about that? Yes. I'm an old man. It is coincided with the Phillies downfall, so I'd like to blame this squarely on your shoulders.

I think that's fair. On your day, the Phillies are very much dead. It was quite the birthday present last night when they were down 8-0 immediately. It was quick. It was really quick. I couldn't believe it. I was like, how are they losing 8-0 already?

What a frustrating tournament. Dude, 15 and 30 in their last 45 games. Look, so they are at 500 as we are recording right now before tonight's game against the Raggies. At 500 for the first time since April 10th, Jack Fritz. All right, let's start at the top. We'll get into all of it, some big questions for the offseason and all that stuff.

But I never thought we'd get to the point where, even though this team has won 12 more games than last year the phillies topic of the moment the topic du jour jack fritz is should they fire gabe capler is that what we're really talking about right now it's a thing it is a thing jack it is a thing. It is a thing, Jack Fritz. It's 100% of it. It is a thing. Yeah, it's... What is going on right now? Listen, with Gabe, I think it's just so weird. We went from, we went from in this town

from zero analytics to all of a sudden the most analytically driven like manager in the entire game. Like Gabe is more analytically driven than almost any other manager out there it's crazy and um and i just don't think people were were ready for it and i think he just rubs people the wrong way with the way he talks the way they don't think he's

authentic they think he's a used car salesman he has never really been able to connect with this town and um and it started on opening day uh with the pulling aaron nola after 68 pitches and then it coincided with getting booed at the home opener the philadelphia for the most part has never really gotten behind gabe capler and now that they've lost 15 out of 30 uh it feels like or 15 yeah 15 they're 15 and 30 our last 45 games 15 out of 45 yeah losing 30 of 45 yeah yeah that one um even better even better um and now people just feel like we can they can just dump on the guy get rid of them all that stuff and it's just like it's just it's just a little bit frustrating that it feels like a lot of people are like happy to to see this go down in flames the way it has.

And if it didn't go down like this, I don't think the reactions would have been perfectly fine. If there were 500 in their last 45 games, everyone's fine. It's just that everything is starting to pile up now. It's the bad defense. The pitching has regressed. The offense has continued to be inconsistent. All of it has just fallen apart and collapsed in an

epic manner. Finally, people feel like they can be like, well, Gabe Kapler just doesn't know what he's doing. Or analytics are dumb. All that's fun stuff. So it's been really fun. Fun time to be a Phillies fan. Yeah, it sucks ass is another way to put it.

Like you said, look, I think that, and we've all said this a million times, but it's the truth. If this team's season had flipped, if they started the season off 15 and 30 and then railed off a 15 over 500 clip to be 500 right now, everyone would be ecstatic about this team. Well, it's why people are like, well, bring back Pete McKinnon, or Pete McKinnon could have done this with his crew. Of course.

That's what people do, and I agree with you. I think it was a bit of culture shock, too. I think that people just weren't ready for this hard and analytics kind of push immediately. I know. Going from like zero to 100 pretty quickly. And also, I do think that, like you said, look, I think there's a lot of people who are waiting to be right. I think people said Gabe Kapler is going to suck at this. And they waited for the team to flounder.

And now they're like, look, I told you, Gabe Kapler sucks. First and foremost. And I they're like, look, I told you, Gabe Kapler sucks. First and foremost. And I get it. I get it. Look, Gabe Kapler is not a Philly guy. All right? He's not your buddy who you're going to go hang with and have a beer with. That's not who Gabe Kapler is.

He's positive. He talks different. He acts different. He looks the world differently. He's just not that type of guy. But that doesn't mean that he's a bad baseball manager, Jack. That doesn't mean that he's a bad at understanding and relating to players, at having locker room.

Now, I think if you're going to, and look, we've been very pro-Gabe on this podcast this season, but we also have said there are things that you can obviously kill him for. I mean, we blame the players for defense, but the lack of fundamentals the way i mean coaching that's coaching too yeah i think the biggest issue now jack and where i worry and again i still believe in gabe kapler i think look and joe gilio has made this point a lot and getting killed for it but this is the exact same we were talking about d about Doug Peterson at the end of his first season. That Cincinnati game, people wanted him fired. They quit on this guy. He lost the locker room.

It's over. We're hearing all that stuff now. And I think the most frustrating part is that they're not fighting, that this team basically kind of just seems like they're going out and playing out the string. And I think that's disappointing. But where do you stand with Kapler? Where are you at right now?

Well, I think I'm still pro-Gabe. And I just, I feel like if you're ever, if you ever say one positive thing about Gabe, it's like, well, you just blindly defend him. It's like, that's not true at all. Like there's things that I see that I don't particularly like, but much like how I viewed Carson Wentz,

even though he wasn't a perfect quarterback prospect, he was a guy that I viewed as a guy that would work his tail off and figure out things. When I listen to Gabe talk and when I hear about his work ethic and how he just is digging through information, it's just that I don't want to give up on a guy that works as hard as he does because I know how hard he works. I know that Pete McKinnon didn't work hard and I know he didn't really care about the numbers or trying to get better, and Gabe is legitimately trying to get better and make the correct managerial decision. I think for the most part, he's put guys in positions to succeed.

It's just that almost every decision he's made has just backfired, but if you actually critically think about the moves that he has made and just step back and took the analytics out of it and just look logically most of the decisions he's made have made sense they just have on paper they've made sense when you actually think about it they have it just feels like they've backfired a lot and that sucks like the the shifting stuff like shifting is something that works in baseball every team does it like ron washington I was reading in the Athletic yesterday, and he is one of the oldest school baseball guys you'll find. He was like, I love the shifting. Like sometimes it'll get beat, but for the most part it works.

And it just feels like the shifting has killed the Phillies this year. It's been awful. Now I don't know if that is, is that a product of them looking at the wrong numbers when they shift? Is it a product of them looking at the wrong numbers when they shift is it a product of shifting too much like my one problem with the shifts is um like say a guy like freddie freeman's up totally agree with this when you see a guy like freddie freeman's up he's too good a hitter and you have a guy on on in scoring position and he sees a whole left side of the field open like he's gonna take the he's gonna score the run there and i think that may be the next evolution

in baseball is since it's weird because isn't base isn. And I think that may be the next evolution in baseball. It's weird because isn't the boiled down, isn't the product of analytics eliminating runs? But also on the offensive side, it's supposed to be scoring runs. And scoring runs is not a bad thing no matter what analytic thing you're looking at. Scoring runs is always good. So there's a run in scoring position, and there's a chance with almost the whole left side of the infield open just punch a ball that way and get the run

home. Maybe that's the adjustment the league makes to kind of counteract the shifting movement. And I think if you look at the moves that Gabe Capover has made this year, they've been mostly rooted in logic. I do believe that and he works his tail off and I don't want to just

dump on a guy. I feel like it's been a lot of process over results with the arguments against Gabe Kapler. It feels like people are only looking at the results and not actually thinking about what he's doing. And also, once he gets better players in here, I just think naturally this team will look much better on paper. I think that's the key. That is. That's the key. And especially you're talking about defense.

Look, they have a bunch of bad fielders on this team. A bunch of guys out of position. I mean, like, a stripper Cabrera should never be allowed to play shortstop in Major League Baseball ever again. He's bad at it. Reese Hoskins is one of the worst left fielders I've ever seen in my life watching baseball. Literally. One of the worst I've ever seen out there.

They're a bad defensive team as much. They had Scott Kingery playing shortstop for most and scott kingery is now i find shortstop good but but for the first half of the season he was dreadful out jb crawford leads the team in errors he's played like 60 games yeah it's been so i think i think look again fundamental type stuff i will get on coaches for that's their responsibility you know you are in charge of the team you're in charge of teaching all that stuff at the same time like they're major league baseball and that's where i'm going and that ultimately you've been playing baseball your whole life you should know what to do with the ball you should know where you're supposed to go with it right and that's that's why the

reese hoskins that's why the reese hoskins thing the other day was ridiculous when people were like well because he hasn't been playing first base all year he of course he shouldn't have known to go go to second base the guys played first base for 24 years of his life like you don't know that by now you're just a you're just a bad defensive first baseman. Yeah, it's just, it's silly. Reece Ogleford? Oh, no. No, no, no, no.

But, look, I think like we talked about, and look, they just said it, Ken Rosenthal coming out and saying, literally every single player on the team except for Hoskins and Nola is available if people want to make a move for him. I think that shows you what this team is from a, and and a lot of these guys will be back they will be parts of the future and I think there are useful players here but when you look at it that way I understand

how angry people are getting at Kapler but I also think you need to step back and say all right this is a 66 win team that was the youngest in baseball until they added some piece of the deadline the moves of the deadline didn't really work out you know look this fall has been bad there have been bad things but at the same time i think to single out capler and just blame capler and say oh it's this guy's fault especially when people loved it when they were being good they didn't give capler any credit for that no so why you can't have one and not the other either the manager makes a difference the manager doesn't make a difference one way or the other right and and another thing is the bullpen i mean the bullpen is pieced together pretty much i mean hunter's been better the second half but it's not

like i really trust that guy in a big moment neshek gets his like people are blaming capital the other day for the neshek thing it's like neshek has allowed three runs the entire season and he comes in and gets his doors blown in and then complains to the media about the umpire and the shifting, which is just so... It's never Pat Neshek. It's just classic Pat Neshek. I hate that guy. I can't wait for him to be gone. I can't stand him.

I can't do it. I don't care if he's a Philly or not. I just don't like that guy. No, he's just the embodiment of a bullpen pitcher. He's like a kicker. He's basically like a kicker in football thinking he's an actual football player. That's what it is. That's the key part of it. He thinks he's an actual player.

It's annoying. Anyway. I mean, look, just to your point with the bullpen. They don't have a lefty. Yes. They can't get it out with a lefty. And then on top of that, think about it this way. And he wore down all that.

But their best bullpen pitcher was a guy who was in single A. I know. I mean, come on, man. They were not prepared from a bullpen perspective to have a real competitive pen. And did they overachieve to an extent? Yes. Were they getting lucky to an extent? Yes.

And it's weird because is this season a success, a disappointment? I don't know how to define this Philly season I it's almost a tale of two halves yeah it's unbelievable yeah it really is because there was there was a time where I was saying oh it's a success no matter what look at how many games they're gonna win more than last year blah blah blah and now you're at the point where after this slide where they're back to 78 and 70 you can't call it a success absolutely can't call there's no way you can call it a success. You can't lose 30 of your last 45. You're in real trouble.

I know. I can't get it. You can't. It's not a success. I was wrong to say it was a success. It isn't. But there are things that you can point to that were successful and there are things that you can look at and say, alright, well that's a positive. And I wouldn't say it was an out and right disaster of a season either no i just you're right it's

really kind of muddled what we view this season to be yeah and if you like i think there's two ways you can look at it you can look at it what offensive players really gotten better this year i don't know if you could say one player got better franco maybe even though he still don't trust him going forward nick williams you don't trust him going forward. Nick Williams, you don't trust him going forward. But those two had quote-unquote the best seasons of their lives, which is sad. And almost

everyone else kind of regressed. That wasn't great. But if you look at the roster on its whole, there were still a bunch of young guys in that lineup for most of the year. If you look at the starting staff, for some reason, no one factors in the starting staff. I know. It's so true.

Someone tweeted at me last night, like, no one's gotten better on this team. I'm like, well, Zach Eflin's gotten better. Nick Pavetta's gotten better. Vince Velasquez has gotten better. Aaron freaking Nola's gotten better. Aaron Nola's gotten better. So let's relax. Pitching is, believe it or not, part of the game.

I'll be the first to tell you that. I would figure. And if you look at the boat, I just think the first to tell you that figure uh and if you look at the boat like i just think people have to step back and look at it from a holistic level and i know that's hard to do when they've lost 30 of their last 45 nailed at that time work man the bullpen's bad on paper the bullpen's bad it's a young staff that hit a wall and it's a young inconsistent lineup that may have a flaw in its approach like i think i think questioning john maylee and the offensive approach is a legit gripe.

Agreed. Because if you're going to base your whole offense around your players' ranks or whatever, or finding pitches for your guys to hit, guess who else knows that? The pitchers know that. So, like, of course they're not going to swing a one if it's a pitch that they weren't looking for. It's not on their strike zone or not in their strength zone where they're going to try to slug quote unquote so i think may leave a question mark i think kranz did a good job

this year i think the bullpen's trash and i think just they hit they they they hit a wall as a team their luck ran out and it's hard to quantify that as a success or failure when you're looking at a team that was as young as they were yeah it really is and again i think some of the things we saw in the first half of the season and like you said a tale of two halves were positives they were tough and resilient and fought hard and we saw young guys who we thought were going to you know be something and then as the season has progressed, it certainly soured everyone's opinions on the season and on certain players.

They need help. Reece Hoskins needs help. I love Reece, but he's been terrible for like a month now. A month and a half, yeah. And he goes into these swoons where it's like, he's amazing, he's amazing, he's amazing, and then he's bad, bad, bad, and then he's amazing he's amazing he's amazing and then he's bad bad bad and then he's amazing again and he needs he needs help and he can't just be the guy that centers the whole offense around him i think maybe in a couple years he could be that guy

uh but he is he is the face of the franchise but he also needs some help like he like he needs another impact bat that can take some of the pressure off a hundred percent carlos carlos santana look michael franco and batting average is not the most important salary anything like that He needs another impact bat that can take some of the pressure off him. I 100% agree. Carlos Santana is— I mean, look, Mikel Franco—and batting average is not the most important salary or anything like that, but Mikel Franco led the team in hitters who qualified for batting title or whatever with a.270 average. I mean, that's bad, man. That's legit bad. I think they have like a.234 average as a team.

They're just not putting the ball in play enough. They're not making contact enough. Like you said, I think you can really question the approach. And here's my bigger issue. It's not just question the approach. It's looking at the approach and not adjusting, not saying, all right, well, this isn't working or this isn't working for Scott Kingery, or this isn't working for player X and not saying, all right, hey, this guy's really good at this. Let's let him do that. Like, I'm fine with having organizational approaches. I'm fine with everyone moving towards the same goal.

I think that's a good thing. But you can't do it to the point where you are hindering guys who that approach doesn't work for. Yeah, and it feels like they have forced this upon a lot of their players from an offensive standpoint. I think for the most part, Gabe has been flexible. He's been trying to find a lineup that can work. And for the most part of the season, before the trade deadline, he did have a consistent lineup. He had a lineup that he would roll out there that he felt pretty good about.

And ever since the trade, ever since it went to 40-man, it almost feels like he's been so obsessed with the 40-man. I know. I really believe the 40-man is kind of hamstrung. It was almost like, oh, my God, look at all these guys I got. I know. It really feels like he can't help himself. I know. And, I mean, listen, like, I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place with this

because I almost – I want to see pitchers pitch deeper into games, but I also understand what he's talking about. But, like, Eflin last night, it's tough to tell because I know they want to see pitchers pitch deeper into games, but I also understand what he's talking about. But like Eflin last night, and it's tough to tell because I know they want to limit innings and I know they don't want to overwork these guys. But at the same time, if you're really trying to compete for the NL next year,

you're going to have to let these guys learn how to pitch deep in games in September. And I know you have 40 man and all this stuff, but I would have liked to have seen Eflin work out of a jam in the third inning in a game that doesn't mean anything anymore rather than going and getting Austin Davis, who I frankly can't wait to never watch again in my life. Austin Davis has been bad.

Remember those talks from earlier in the year? God, I liked him for a little bit. It didn't work out. He just doesn't have stuff. He can throw strikes. Yeah. And another thing that I got a problem with Gabe is the FIP. I love FIP, but not for relievers.

It's way too small a sample size. It never really correlates well for relievers. Starters, they pitch enough, they get enough innings, all that stuff, where FIP kind of evens out. But it doesn't really work for relievers. And he's on the manager show the other day talking about how Austin Davis is the lowest FIP amongst fill fillers or leavers. And I'm like,

Gabe, like this isn't it, man. You got to use some kind of, I think he may, I, for, for a period there in the middle of summer,

I thought he was starting to use more of his gut. And I really believe that the 40 man roster kind of messed them up and it made him go strictly matchup based. I think so too. And it made him take all the gut out of it and only use the numbers and i know this sounds like old school but he just can't manage that way you can't manage that way you absolutely can't you have to man you have to have a feel for your guys you have to know who's got it right now who doesn't you know all that type of stuff who's hot who's not like there's so many different things who's seeing the

ball well all that stuff and also what's been under uh reported is all the injuries like franco's been hurt williams has been hurt i think cesar has been hurt like he just doesn't look the same uh jb crawford's been hurt um i mean carlos santana's had to play third base a lot which i i'm interested in but he's only doing that because franco has been hurt roman quinn was hurt altera was hurt like it's just like there's a bunch of injuries wilson ramos can't play every day because of his hamstrings. There's a good amount of injuries to go along with it as well. There's things to explain this downfall. Besides, it's just the manager doesn't know what he's doing.

And that's what gets me so frustrated. It's like, guys, it's not just the freaking manager. Of course it's not. He can only do so much. Exactly. All right. One more thing on Kavler, and then we'll look at some other stuff. But do you think that we don't care? I know I've said and you've said we personally don't care what Kapler says to the media. I literally could care less. It means nothing to me. But it has caused a lot of problems for him. It just has. In this town, in the media, all that type of stuff, people are getting annoyed with the way Kapler says things,

with the way he, what he says, really, to the media and in these situations, talking about his team. We know he's never going to be a throw players under the bus type of guy. That's just not what he is. But do you see Kapler potentially changing his approach in these types of things, in how he addresses the media and how he addresses the players and how he talks about how the team is doing

or Gabe is Gabe? he addresses the media and how he addresses the players and how he talks about how the team is doing or gabe is gabe i think he's he was adjusting a little bit um and it was seeming like he was starting to to get a little bit and then now he's just doubled down on everything like i think there's a point to where you can try to teach analytics to people and try to make it not so hard and fast approach like no one's gonna believe analytics are are a good thing if you're talking about austin davis's fip yeah as in like as in like he's a good pitcher yeah because he's not a good pitcher like i think if you want to use if you want to use numbers to support like what he has to do a better job of using his eyes to back up what the analytics are saying as well like coming out and saying nick pivetta has a better x-fifth than aaron nola like no one's

gonna believe like i like i like that but but like the average you're the biggest nick pivetta man out there and you know aaron nola is significantly better right right right yeah right so like no but no one's gonna buy in if you're just saying stuff like that because the numbers say that and everyone's just gonna go to their friends and be like, do you see what Gabe said? Talk about this FIP thing and it's all BS. He has to do a better job of trying to make numbers more human in a way. And he just has never resonated with people. He has felt like a robot to a lot of guys.

Yeah. And look, I think he has to be a little more real in certain situations. Again, I don't need him to go out and say, you know, oh, Dibble played like crap. He stinks. I don't need any of that crap. What does holding players accountable mean to the media? It doesn't do anything for me.

I'm with you. It does nothing for me. I think that 99 times out of 100, there are only bad consequences, bad stuff that comes from ripping your players in the public. And he has said that we need to play better. Yes, but he needs to do more of that. And he needs to do it in a way where he doesn't have to rip his players, but take it on himself, whatever.

He has to do a better job of it. You can't come out after you get eliminated from the playoffs and talk about how we're still fighting. Your team's played like shit for a while. Like you just, at a certain point, and again, not for me, I don't care, but because like you're the manager of the Philadelphia Phillies and you need a fan base to at some point have your back and buy into you. And if this approach continues, people will never buy into him, no matter what happens. Even if

they're winning, people are going to hate it. At a certain point, he's got to be real with more people. He has to. Or else he's going to get canned. Or else he's going to get canned. It's the same thing with Hinckley. It's the exact same thing. Exactly. You're right. It's the same thing as Hinckley. Now, Hinckley didn't talk at all. But every time he did, I felt way better about what he

was doing. He was great at it, too. He was really good at it. I mean, Hinckley was really good at talking to the media. Whenever he would talk to me, he was great. I was like, why doesn't he talk more? I know. He's awesome. I feel great now. I know.

And eventually, him not talking enough, it got enough writers against him to where it buried him. And now it just feels like there's so much overwhelming pressure from the media in this town to all that. It's like almost we need a Gabe Kapler expose. Yeah. Someone has to have his back. Like, he needs- Well, the High Hopes podcast to all that. It's like almost we need a Gabe Kapler expose. Yeah, someone has to have his back. He needs- Well, the High Hopes podcast.

Of course. Gabe, we're telling you right now, if you come on the High Hopes podcast, we will make the city love you. We're trying, Gabe. We're trying. You got to help us out a little bit, man. Help us out. We're fans.

We got your back, Gabe. We were the first ones. We wanted you here before you were here, bro. I know. Jack and I go back and check the archives. We were the first ones. We wanted you here before you were here, bro. I know. Like, Jack and I go back and check the archives. Who should the Phillies manager be? We want Gabe Kapler. Who's Gabe Kapler? The

guy we want, alright? That's what we said. We wanted Gabe Kapler before you even got here. Just be more human. Yeah, and that's what it is. It's like, loosen up a little bit. And I know it might not be your style or whatever, but just like loosen up a little bit, Gabe. Do you have any problems with the players starting to talk like him though like reese hoskins has come out and said like when everything was going downhill

reese would be like i'll get him tomorrow and like and like tommy hunter will be like in his stupid like frat bro like nah dude we'll be fine but the only one that like there was no that was my one problem with the whole downfall is that there was no guy getting, like, pissed. Yeah. And there was no guy that was like, listen, we just gotta step it up. Like, we gotta be better than this.

Like, Ari had to try to, but when he sucks, it's like, it's hard to. Well, I think it's a great point. That's the problem, right? I mean, who other than, Noel is not that guy. Like, he's not. And I think.

Aaron Noel is as chill as they come. And he, you know, he might even know what the team's record is. Like, he's just like, hey guys. You know, like. And Hoskins should not that guy. He's not. Aaron Nola's as chill as they come. He might even know what the team's record is. He's like, hey, guys. And Hoskins should be that guy. It should be Hoskins. Hoskins. It should be Hoskins.

For as much as you can say Gabe has to be a leader of men, whatever, in the end, in a clubhouse, it comes down to the players stepping up and saying to each other, listen, it's go time. We got to start. We got to nut up or shut up. Yep. And I think the players have done a bad job of holding each other like listen let's go time we gotta start we gotta nut up or shut up yep and i think the players have done a bad job of of holding each other accountable from a teammate standpoint

not picking each other up not you know you don't have to yell each other in a dugout but just be like let's go like let's let's fight i just didn't see any of that from the whispers i've heard none of that the the the the clubhouse has dead. There's just been almost no emotion, which is not good. And I know Hoskins is another laid-back Sacramento guy who I think people look up to as a team leader, but I don't see him ever being the guy. I think he can be.

I think he can be the guy that people look to and he can be like, let's go. Like Howard was when he went to Colorado and said, get me to the plate, boys. I got it. I think Hoskins can develop into that guy, but the Phillies need that guy. Bryce Harper. Maybe.

They need Bryce Harper. Bryce Harper's that guy. All right, let's talk about that for a second. Okay. So Howard comes on the morning show today and says that. Oh, yeah, good point. I want to bring this up. He says something to the effect of Kapler being here may push away free agents

and make them not want to sign here. And my counter to that is, if you're a free agent and you see the manager getting fired after one year with a team that, obviously Bryce Harper's not paying attention to what the Phillies are doing, but he looks at the record,

they're like 16 games better than last year, and they fire the manager. To me, that looks like a sign of instability and why am I going to sign up for the next 10 years of my life to a team a team that has looks instability i agree a hundred percent with you i think it's a great point and to take it a step further in all honesty bryce harper is signing with whoever gives him the most money period i'm sorry it's true and also gabe kapler and bryce harper will be best friends and run the rocky Steps together. Yeah, look, and again, I think

that we also, we've made it so that in our belief this media, Philadelphia fans, all this stuff that because we don't like Gabe, and obviously not you and me, but the royal we. And not the high hopes listeners. Absolutely not. Because quote unquote, we don't like

Gabe Kapler, then the players in the locker room don't like him too. We don't know that. We don't know that those guys in the locker room don't like him. We don't know that they don't fucking love him and think he's awesome. Right? I mean, we don't know that. And yes, they haven't played well.

And to your point about needing a leader in the locker room, I do blame Gabe a little bit for that because I think that you need to get, if you don't have a leader in that locker room, then guess who's in there getting them fired up guess who's in there making it exciting making people you know jacked up to play that's your job then if that's not what you need like that's if there's no one there to do it you got to do it I agree he needs help from the locker room but I think that Gabe does deserve some blame for that but I think he's tried well and regardless the point is is that just because people out here don't like Gabe's act doesn't mean that in that locker room, again,

there's a guy who played in the major leagues for over a decade, certainly knows locker rooms, knows players, understands players. It doesn't mean they don't like him. No, it doesn't. But also there really hasn't been one guy being like, Gabe's our guy. You know, even when Doug was going down and it felt, I mean, I remember Art stepping up and being like, listen, we love playing for Doug, we love Doug. And we've always gotten Doug's back.

We even heard that. Like, we, I mean, ever since, I mean, opening day, the opening day stuff and the first weekend stuff or whatever, the first Marlins series where Nick Williams came out and said, I guess the computers said I shouldn't play today. It really hasn't, it hasn't, it's been fine. There hasn't been outbursts from the dugout, but we also haven't seen players come out and be like, listen, I really like playing for Gabe in these last two months. And maybe it's more of an off-season thing.

Like right now it doesn't really make much sense, but there is just a lot of outside heat coming from the media, from the fans, and it would be nice if a player was like, listen, we like playing for Gabe. He's our guy. I agree with you. And Hoskins has said stuff like that in the past. But, yeah, I think that's a very fair point.

Look, again, it would take, I don't think that they're offering that stuff up. It would take a reporter saying, what do you think of Gabe Kapler right now? Yeah. Blah, blah, blah. So that's on the reporters to actually bring it to the players' attention. And who knows? Again, to your point about Bryce Harper, I don't think the players are looking around and being like, wow, everybody hates Gabe, huh?

Like, I think they're just going about their business and doing their job. I think for the most part they like Gabe. I think so too, but you could be like, who knows? We don't know. We're not inside that locker room. All I'm saying is that we don't know, that they might love him. They might hate him. We don't know.

But to assume that they all hate him just because people around here hate him is a bad assumption. Yeah, that's not fair. But look, I think let's put it this way. If there are drastic things on, and I know there are a lot of prominent media people, guys like Howard Eskin, guys like Al Morgani, a lot of people who think that Gabe will be fired, who think that Gabe will not be back next year.

So I'm not saying that they're wrong or they don't know what they're talking about, but personally, I would be shocked if Kapler is not back next season i would be floored by it so would i because of the like clintack stuck his neck out for gabe yeah absolutely and they've they unconventional hire and clintack came out and said last week listen when i was hired when i was brought in here i was brought in to try something different gabe capler is something different yeah i don't think they're gonna give up on that after one year. And also, if I was Gabe and I got fired or I might get fired, I'd be like, listen, man, you're the one that brought me Carlos Santana and put Hoskins in left field. Like, this has been a it's been a Klintak and Kapler production.

I agree with you. It's not one or the other. It's been together. But also, I think Klintak's getting his job. And if I had to pick one going forward, I'm keeping Klentak instead of Kapler. So I would just be floored if Middleton stepped in and was like, listen, you're both out of here.

Just Kapler's out of here or Klentak's out of here. Look, Klentak's not going anywhere. I don't think there's any way that this offseason, heading into your biggest offseason in your franchise's history, potentially, you're firing your GM. They wouldn't let him fire all of them. Especially because they knew what the plan was. The plan was not to contend this year.

It was to contend next year. I know. People have forgotten that. Everybody has. Everybody acts like this is the year. If we don't win it this year, it's all over. I'm not a Phillies fan anymore. It's like they were never supposed to win this year.

This is a 66-win team that didn't do that much to make the team better in terms of players. It's just, oh, they're getting a year older. They'll be good. It's because Aaron Nola took a huge leap. Pavetta was better. Velasquez was better. Evelyn was better.

All these guys were better, like you talked about. And ultimately, with the innings they were at and the position players just not being that good in certain spots, it all kind of came back to bite them. And as a result, I think the snowball of it all is what has led to this situation now. But I think that people really forget that if you had said at the beginning of the season the Phillies are going to win 81 games or 80 games or 82 games, people would have been like, yeah, that sounds like a nice year.

That's a nice stepping stone type year for this team that just won 66 games. Right? I mean, is that a crazy thing to say? It's not crazy. And, like, people would throw back in your face, well, they brought in Arrieta and Santana. It's like, well, they were always, like, Arrieta, if you viewed Arrieta as 2015 Arrieta, that's on you.

That's your fault, man. You weren't watching that guy pitch then. And listen, I know we were excited about Arrieta, me and you, and we were but we also knew the the risk that came with it we liked it because of the timing of it the contract only being three years like why not you have the money to spend it wasn't like we were like oh we've got cy young we've got our ace yeah yeah and i am not looking forward to having to pay him 2525 million. Oh, God. I just want him gone. I dislike him so much.

He's just such a frustrating watch. He's a tough watch, man. He's a really tough watch. And he just seems like a, you know what? I'm just not a big fan of the guy right now. Yeah, and I think some of the young pitchers have learned some things from him that have probably been good. Yeah, and we talked about that.

It's been important, I think. It's probably been good, but ripping Scott Kingery in the media was never a good idea. It was such a bad look, man. You're going to single out one player on the team and you're making the rookies playing a position he's never played before? Really? No, I know. But it's also the classic pitcher thing.

I understood where he was coming from to where the shifts. Listen, if you're a pitcher and a ball goes through in the 5-6 hole where there's a short stop that's usually there, a pitcher's going to blow a gasket. It's infuriating. I could see it on Neshek's face, honestly, the other night when a ball went through.

I could just... I had my little pitcher sense being like, he's going to rip the shifts after the game because that should have been a double play ball or whatever. But yeah, no, it's just that was frustrating. And Arrieta, like, he just cannot throw a or whatever. But yeah, no, that was frustrating. And Arrieta, he just cannot throw a freaking strike, and he has no idea where the ball is going.

He's throwing sliders that are supposed to be in the outside corner on the back foot of a left-hander. It's crazy. Now, the other guy that was a big move, Carlos Santana. I got into it this weekend. It wasn't really gotten into it, but I just don't think Carlos Santana was a mistake signing. Carlos Santana at the end of this year is putting up some of the best numbers of his career.

It's just the fact that he was billed as being this middle of the lineup guy where he's just, he's just not. He's not who he is. He's the people. The main problem with Carlos Santana is that people viewed him as being like our Ryan Howard middle of the lineup guys going to drive in a hundred. And like, it's just not him. It's not him.

He's a very good offensive player. I'm not going to say he's a very good hitter because he's batting 230. He's overall a very good offensive player. He can be a key cog to a championship level team like he was for those Indian teams. Do people forget that he started in left field for game one

of the World Series? Of course they do. Nobody remembers that. Sorry, Francona. Reinventing the game. Indian teams. And like, do people forget that he started in left field for game one of the world series? Like he can play. Of course they do. Nobody remembers that. Oh, sorry. Francona reinventing the game. Yeah.

That's the thing. I mean, reinventing the game, James, what Gabe Kaplan's doing. That's like, it frustrates me so much that we can watch what Terry Francona did in the playoffs there and do something no one's ever thought to do before.

Totally. The reason they almost win the World Series. And people are like, I don't like new stuff. Why would you try something different? And your point before you said it, Klintak literally said, I was brought in here to do things differently. I'm not going to stop. Like, I'm not going to not do things differently.

That's the whole point of why I'm here. And again, you know I'm a market inefficiency guy. Good. Find market inefficiencies. That's what baseball is. That's why teams like the Athletics have had success over the last two decades. Because Billy Bean has went around and found ways to find market inefficiencies and compete with a much lower payroll. But who has Klintac found?

Well, that's the problem. I mean, you want to get there, right? Right. I mean, you could say all that stuff. It's just that, you know, do it, buddy. Oh, has Klintak found? Well, that's the problem. I mean, you want to get there, right? Right. I mean, you could say all that stuff. It's just that, you know, do it, buddy. Oh, and Klintak has him. I mean, look, I like Matt Klintak, too. I believe in the guy, but, like, he's not infallible,

nor has he proven it yet. I just believe that he will. But, I mean, yeah, up till this point, I think you, you know, you can't feel great about what Klintak's done. Now, he has gotten unlucky, though, with Charlie Morton. Charlie Morton goes to the Astros. Yeah, he was a little out of the curve on a couple guys. And Clay Buckholtz.

Clay Buckholtz, who I hated. Was great in Arizona. I hated Clay Buckholtz. Yeah. But he might win an All-Comeback Player of the Year. Yeah. He had like a two ERA. He's been great.

In Arizona. So he did get unlucky in some circumstances. But, listen, we can talk about finding the next wave of baseball. Maybe the Phillies are onto that. I mean, we just haven't seen it. We haven't seen any evidence of that. He hasn't found an under-the-radar guy that turns into a stud like the Dodgers did with Chris Taylor, with Max Muncy, Justin Turner.

That is market inefficiencies. That is finding something that no one else is seeing. The Phillies haven't done that. They also haven't, but I want to preface they also haven't had the chance to do that because and this is another problem with all the Klintac hate that I see, is that when he took over the Phillies,

they didn't have pieces they could trade away for legitimate talent. Everyone had no value when he got here. There was not one player on the roster that could get you back a legit project to jump start this thing so he was starting from scratch and also uh he has to evaluate if these young players are can be pieces of a future championship team so you're not going to suppress them by bringing in big name free agents or trading for guys who may turn out to be good or may not and then you're giving away young talent so he's been kind of handicapped in that scenario.

The guys he's tried on have been the pitchers. He tried with Charlie Morton. Unfortunately, he got hurt. He tried to play Buckholz. Unfortunately, he got hurt. They've gone elsewhere and had success. So I think he may be looking for the right things there. I just think at some point you've got to find what you're talking about.

Yeah. And I, look, and again, I think the whole point was to give him that opportunity to build what he was going to build, what he was planning to build. And I think this offseason is everything. I think this is it. This is your chance. Matt Klentak's career in Philadelphia

will be made or broken this offseason, in my mind. If you look at the Phillies as a whole, I think the organization is in a really healthy spot. I think they're in a very healthy spot. Now, they may not have the stars. They may not have the stars in the system that are going to turn into something big. But I think they have a bunch of good players

that they can trade for those kind of guys. Exactly. That's the thing. Everyone talks about that you need the blue-chip prospects. No, you just need good prospects that you can turn into a blue chip player it's true right should we do it is it time to talk about oh please i've been waiting for it i thought you busted out already okay jack's got a take well it's not a take as much as a a a fact so about mike trout so joe jillio and i that is very interesting joe jillio and i I are sitting here the other night, and he comes in, and he's like, did you know that Mike Trout has a no trade clause?

And I was like, really? He has no trade clause. We both looked at each other, and we were like, he could Stanton. He could Stanton the Angels. I'm going to the Phillies. That's it. Nowhere else. Trade me home.

And I texted James, and I said, did you know that Mike Trout has a no trade clause? And he's like, oh, that sucks. And I'm like, James, that is the greatest thing. Yeah, I wasn't really paying attention to your... I was actually... It was a weird situation where I was watching your commish video for our WIP Fantasy League and then I was reading your text, so I was ignoring one Jack for the other and just being, oh, whatever.

So that was my bad. Anyway, so Mike Trout has a no trade clause Which means that He could say hey I want to come home to Philadelphia And That's the only place I'll accept a trade to That's it just get what you can get Because I'm going to Philly And then the Angels

Listen we'll give you this this and this And go find a better deal that he'll accept And if they won't be able to First off they won't be able to do that because he can only accept a trade back to Philadelphia or wherever. So they're going to be able to get Mike Trout. Now, I hope everyone is sitting down because they're going to be able to get Mike Trout back giving up Aaron Nola, Sixto Sanchez.

Without giving him. Without giving up these guys. Reese Hoskins, Alec Boehm off the limits, Adam Haisley off limits. They're going to be able to get Mike Trout without giving up those five guys. Reese Hoskins, Alec Boehm, off the limits, Adam Haisley, off limits. They're going to be able to get Mike Trout without giving up those five guys. Aduble, Cesar, one of Eflin, Pavetta, or Velasquez. Actually, Pavetta's off limits too. Get out

of here, Mike. Get out of here, Mike. Just kidding. Pavetta would not be off limits. Franco. No, it's not even that. Cesar, Aduble. I think Franco's got more value. Whatever. Doesn't matter. I'm just throwing names out there., Dubel. I think Franco's got more value. Whatever. Doesn't matter. I'm just throwing names out there. Whatever.

That's fine. I think the Phillies can give them a fine deal. But, like, Mike Trout's not going to get traded for Aaron Nola, Sixer Shantzis, Reese Hoskins, and, like, Alec Buck. God, I hope you're right. It's just not going to happen. It's not going to happen. He has a no-trade clause.

Just get Mike Trout. As soon as he turns out that extension, which he better turn out an extension. He's going to turn it. He has a no trade clause. Just get Mike Trout. As soon as he turns out that extension, which he better turn that extension in. He has a no trade clause. He can force a trade. He can do just what Stanton did. Just what Ken Griffey Jr. did. This is almost the same. To go home to Cincinnati.

It's almost the same exact thing. Is what the Griffey thing. They got that Brett Tomko, Mike Cameron, and just trash. Not great. For Ken Griffey jr like i have a i just have a good feeling about it i like it too i fit look it's i and don't you this is joe brought us up as well wasn't that rosenthal report kind of like a message to the angels being like listen all these guys are available except for yeah that was the first thought i read it when i i i first

thing i thought was like oh you mean, you should have been, should have finished and said, everyone on the Phillies except Hoskins and Nola is available for a Mike Trout trade was how I read it in my head. I'm like, yes. Yes. There's no other reason to put that out there. You don't want to make guys on the team

feel like they're expendable. Like, you don't want to get that out there. There is no upside to the Phillies' team. Look, if they want teams to know that out there. There is no upside to the Phillies' team. Look, if they want teams to know that players are available, guess what they could do? Dial the phone up. Hey, you know, Billy Epperly. Guess what?

Everyone's available. Like, hey, they could do it that way. That got out. And I think it got out for a reason. I agree with you. I think that was a very blatant hey. Check it out, guys. Yeah.

And I think. Whatever you want. Now, I know I've been critical of Middleton just because of the- I think he forced the area at a signing. And I think that was a him move. But I think he was going to slam it down on the table and say, go get me Mike Trout. I think so, too. I think he's going to do that.

And I think he's going to pony up for Harper or Machado. Or maybe all three. Or both, yeah. Can you imagine? Oh, my God. All that Phillies hate would go away pretty quickly if they have mike travis harper and manny yeah but my shadow yeah but you know what would happen is like people like oh well he's probably gonna pitch machado yeah oh god

i can't even i hate this i can't even i can't even all right fritzy uh this has been therapeutic yeah i feel like we needed to have this conversation um and i know people probably say it's like negative or whatever but how can you be positive yeah i mean come like we needed to have this conversation and I know people probably say it's like negative or whatever but how can you be positive yeah I mean come on we have to be real alright you can't look we're not Gabe Kapler we can't find a way to be positive in every situation and everything no and you don't have to

produce these games no I still have to stay up and watch them though I feel you 30 of their last 45 last night was the worst last night I was aiming by I turned it off it was like no it was like no of this. I feel you. 30 of their last 45. Last night was the worst. I wasn't even behind. It was like no. It was like no. No. That's what I felt.

And I knew. I was like they're going to play a Rocky team that's fighting for their playoff life at home. They still have reason to play. I know this is going to be ugly and it was like alright I'm done. It was fun. We'll be back. We will continue to, all off season we're going to be here.

We're going to be talking Phillies when Mike Trout trade happens. We'll be there for the emergency pod when Bryce Harper signs. We'll be there for the emergency pod. I'll drive 90 miles an hour to get here for that podcast. Amazing. All right, Fritzy, final thoughts. Listen, I know you talk about how much I love the reviews, but we got some reviews last week that literally made me smile. I know. I kept looking at them love the reviews, but we got some reviews last week that literally made me smile.

I know. I kept looking at them. You texted me about them. They made me happy. Got so happy. You had no idea. They're great. I don't even look at them,

but I find out about them because Fritz gets so excited when he sends me them. so keep getting the reviews in. Help us grow this thing. And listen, we love doing it. We'll be back all the time.

I can't wait. Honestly, I cannot wait for the first emergency podcast. Me too. Let's roll. Come on, Phillies. I know. Let's go.

Give it to the off-season. Yes. It's off-season time. I can't take the takes. Enough. I'm so done with this season. Get to Eagle season. Fire Doug Peterson.

Something. Anything else. All right. Rate and review again. Do it for Fritz. We'll be back. Hopefully, mercifully, when this season is over and we will continue to uh look ahead and uh emergency pods and all that so for fritz i'm

salzer we'll talk to you guys later all-star closer kenley jansen we have a question what's the best podcast of all time baseball isn't boring baby i'm rob bradford and every single day i'm sitting down with the biggest names to show you this great game is the greatest game it's my podcast. It's my passion. It's a cause I started more than two years ago. It is now the most prolific national daily baseball pod there is. Another fact.

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