High Hopes: A Phillies Podcast - The High Hopes Phillies Podcast: Kapler Shows His Human-Side, While Klentak and MacPhail Don't

Episode Date: October 4, 2018

James Seltzer and Jack Fritz are back with a new episode of the High Hopes podcast, with a new intro! The guys react to Kapler on with Angelo, and the Phillies tone-deaf end-of-season press conferences. Rate and review! See omnystudio.com/policies/listener for privacy information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's a bunch of baseball nerds. Well, without the computers talking about the Philadelphia Phillies on radio.com and sports radio, 94 WIP. dot com and sports radio 94 WIP Yo it is

Wow Chris Russo another edition of the High Ops podcast we made it through the 2018 season Jack I figured I owed the people a real yo yeah I mean like I didn't know we did a show with Mad Dog today so yeah yeah we made it to the 2018 season We did a show with Mad Dog today.

Yeah, we made it to the 2018 season. I didn't know if we were going to at certain points, Jack. It felt like it might never end at a certain point. And we picked the right time to get an intro right when the season ended. Yeah, it's perfect. Who needs an intro during the season? I love an intro, though. Shout out to Bartred.

Shout out to John Bartred. He did a great job with that. Yeah, so mean, who needs an intro during the season? Hell of an intro, though. Yeah. Shout out to Bartred. Shout out to John Bartred. He did a great job with that. Yeah. So it was an exhausting season. A lot of, I mean, it started off horrible and then it got great. All excitement. Ended just about as bad as you could ever imagine. And I tell you what, the takes were getting to me by the end.

I was just drained. I couldn't take it with you, man. I couldn't take the takes. I was ready for it to be over. Just so many bad takes and not thinking critically for more than five seconds, which has always been my problem with the older generation of baseball fans in this city. Yeah, look, and a lot of culture shock this year, I think, for a lot of those fans. I mean, they went from zero analytics to just about the most analytically driven organization in the game. All right.

A lot to get into. James Helter, Jack Fritz, coming your way. Can I start off today with takes? I was literally about to say, Jack has informed me that he has takes today, and he can't even let me figure it out. Go ahead. Take away.

Take away. I was parking my car, and it just hit me. And I didn't know if I wanted to save it for Art of the Take or put it on this podcast, but it's a Phillies-related one, so I wanted to put it on this podcast. And to be clear, this is the most important podcast. It is.

It is the only podcast that I think about on a daily basis. I can confirm by the text he sends me. Go ahead. So I've decided that the Phillies pee is childish and makes the Phillies look like a joke. Whoa! You're talking about in the logo, the circular big P. You're not a fan. It is childish. Wow. And I wish

the Phillies would go back to how it used to be because that old P was the staple of what a... You're talking like the 80s P. That is what a historical great franchise looks like. This looks like a clown show and every time i try to envision like bryce harper manny machado coming here i can't get past the the childish philly's

p that is on the top of the cap here's what i'll say it's a good take it's a good take jack thank you i never thought about it till you just said it but the old p is so much better than the new p it's always been it's always been better and It's been close. It's been close. And this pee, it just looks like something a clown designed. Yeah. Like it was put on a balloon. It's pretty good. I don't like it. It's a good take.

I was not expecting that take to start off the podcast. Is it more between a counterpoint take? Yeah. We have so much important Philly stuff to get into. I like that that was where we started. Thank you. It's where I wanted to start. All right, let's dive in.

Yes. Like you said, it was a very up-and-down season. I will say, as we started this podcast towards the end of the 2017 season, so a little over a year ago, and I had to do Phillies Today for all of last season, what I will say is even as tough as this last month and a half was, it was still a lot better. I think people forget how crappy it is to have a 66-win baseball team. So I know how tough it ended, but i still think that at least compared to the season before there was some reason to be happy with the season but obviously that's uh that's probably not the

predominant take right now but there is so much to get into we've got mcphail we got clintac we got capler and angelo amazing all that but let's start with mcphail because i don't know about you jack but i'm not the biggest andy mcphail fan right now no i i he the the fact that he hedged on on the free agent class pissed me off to no end because you have been promising your fans like whether it was you didn't really come out and say it but through the media through leaks through all that stuff you've been telling your fans that the 2019 offseason or whether the free agent class is going to be the time where you're going to spend all your money you're going to bring in free agents and the fact that in his end of year press tree he comes out in this milt toast like well you know we may not did you look

at the 29 needs to put pen to paper i i just can't take them. And it was just, it's a very small-minded, it's a small market thought. You're a big market team. Act like a big market team. That's all John Milton's been talking about for the last couple years is how we're a big market team. We've got to act like a big market team. We're going to go out and spend a lot of money on

free agents. And for him to come out and say, you know, like, we'll see. Don't count on it, guys. I mean, the Yankees would never say that. The Red Sox would never say that. You're absolutely right. It's a small market mentality to set the expectations that way. And I'll take it a step further.

The goal, the goal that that man had to call out the fans and say, we're not signing these guys because you didn't show up. Bro, you've ran a dog crap baseball team out there for seven years. And you're going to say, I mean, I don't know if he meant to say it. I don't know if it was a mistake and it slipped out. Jack, as you could tell, it made me angry. It made me like, who are you, Andy mcphail to tell me that who are you to say that i'm my whole life i've been a diehard philadelphia phillies fan i show up i care and

you're gonna say that because people didn't show up to a team that a tanked the last month of the season and b hasn't won 81 games since 2012 sorry bro i, so not okay with that, Jack. Well, especially since he's, like, never here. Like, we never see him. This is the first time we heard from him all year. I mean, really? Really? I'm livid about it.

It really makes me angry, Jack. And the other thing that pisses me off is they keep bringing up the attendance numbers. And that's one thing you said. But the other thing is they keep talking about how they increase the amount of fans that walk in the stadium this year. And that happens when you play the Yankees and Red Sox. Of course it's going to jump the attendance. There was 45,000 there every night for the Yankees.

Well, there was 35,000 for the Red Sox series. Every night the Yankees series was sold out. So of course it's going to jump your attendance numbers. If you ask yourself objectively if there's more fans in the ballpark than last year, there's probably more fans, but not enough to be bragging about it to the rest of the Phillies fans. We all watched the games, Andy. We all saw no one in the freaking seats. Don't try and spin us on something that we could see with our own eyes. We went down there.

That's been the most frustrating part with what Klintzak and what McPhail said recently. I'm a Klintintak guy. I think he's really good at his job and I think he's but the problem is that he talks down to people. They feel like they're out of touch and the way they talk about baseball, it's like none of what they

say backs up what your eyes are saying. Like when Klintak said we got the fourth best free agent class, like bro. You spent the second most of any team. And, dude, Jake Arrieta sucked. I'm sorry. That dude sucked. For the money he was making, that is what you call a bad signing.

Don't defend it. Like, you can defend the act of doing it. You can defend the process of doing it. But don't sit here and say it worked. Like, just don't. Like you said, it's tone deaf, Jack. It's saying, hey, I'm smarter than you fans. And you guys just don't understand.

Sorry. Yeah, and the most annoying thing is that McPhail keeps bringing up how, oh, we don't want to pay for free agent pitchers. It's like, dude, you're the one that I'm 95% sure he was the one that was pushing for Arrieta to get him. Oh, yeah. Of course he was. That was not a Klintzak move.

Danny McPhail is the guy who freaking brought him to Baltimore. Like, come on, man. Like, we're not stupid. I know. And the way they've talked, and they've all said this in different ways, and Kapler mentioned it with Angelo, was about how it would have been the quickest rebuild to playoffs in modern You made some great points on this.

Are we not watching baseball the last three years? Even the last three years? And like, congrats on having an average team with a core that is not remotely close to the teams you're trying to compare yourself to. Two guys have been gone. You pointed out, obviously, I think the Astros

they lost 110 games four years ago, and they just won the World Series last year, and they have cornerstone guys. They got the AL MVP on their team. They got Carlos Correa. They got George Springer. Dallas Keitel. Just those three guys alone are all three better players than the Phillies have on this team.

And the Cubs have Rizzo, Bryant, Baez, Schwarber, Russell. Russell's garbage but yeah but but the point is like if you collapse the way that the phillies collapsed and it was with a core that was rizzo bryant like it was like that level of core with high pedigree guys hydropic guys that were that were coming through the minor leagues viewed as transcendent talents we would all be way happier totally Totally fine. Totally fine.

But the fact that you're trying to sell us on this level of collapse with Cesar, who's 28. You have Jose Bautista playing a lot in right field. Estreba Cabrera playing all the time. Of course. And Wilson Ramos, Justin Boyle, all that stuff. And it's fine because there was a lot of injuries that also had to happen. Like, Franco got hurt.

Williams got hurt. Altair got hurt at the end of the year. Cesar's been banged up for a while. Wilson Ramos can't play back. Like, Franco got hurt. Williams got hurt. Altair got hurt at the end of the year. Cesar's been banged up for a while. Wilson Ramos can't play back. Like, that's fine. It's just like, stop trying to sell us

on this whole, oh, we have this young, exciting core, when if you look at the Phillies objectively and you take a holistic look down on them, you have Reece Hoskins,

who is really good. And I think he could be our Anthony Rizzo. Yeah. I think he's that level of a hitter. Obviously, he's streaky. Whatever. I agree with you.

He's a bad fielder. We all know that. But hopefully the DH comes to the National League. No. But, okay. And Kingery, I think, is going to be a good piece. Actually, interesting comp I want to throw on you. Ooh.

2012 Pirates basically had the same level of collapse that the Phillies had. The same kind of thing. Their second baseman that year batted.223 and had a.273 OBP. Do you know who it was? Josh Harrison? Josh Harrison. How about that?

I think that's a pretty good Scott Kingery come up. Look, if he's Josh Harrison, that'd be a good player. A good, solid player. Okay, so you have Kingery and him. And then after that, I don't feel good about Azubu. There's no one you can count on. I think Nick Williams could be a piece. I. There's no one you can count on. I mean, like,

I think Nick Williams could be a piece. I mean, there are guys who can be pieces. Alfaro has a high ceiling. There are guys who you can't say aren't something, but certainly none of them

are building block guys you build championship teams around. Right, and if you look at the minor leagues, it's like, I think Baum could get there. I think people are a little too down on Baum.

He's a legit middle the impact middle the order bat that is just he got hurt and that's just unfortunate happens it's at this power and look at everyone else like I think Haley's gonna be great but I don't think

he's gonna be at the level of a shore or like a middle the impact middle the order bat that can change your game hopefully he's like a Ben and Tendi that's like high ceiling high yeah be great

that would that's like the the high level of him like Christian Yelich a light he's not gonna beintendi. That's like high ceiling, high level. Yeah, it'd be great. That's like the high level of him. Like Christian Yelich, light. He's not going to be Christian Yelich. Let's not get carried away. I said light. I'm with you. Light, light.

Let's go. Christian Yelich is maybe the most underrated player in baseball, but go ahead. A good player. He could be a good player. He's going to be a good player in the major leagues. Moaniak, shows a flash in the second half. But like, to sell us on this would be the quickest turnaround in nlb history it's just not it's not true and it's not you're not you weren't you weren't making that run with a group

with a core of young players you're making the run with reese oskins and then older guys you brought in the trade deadline yeah look i think um the argument that the team wore down and all that is fine that happens they. They are young guys. They've never played 162 games in a season. They're pitching staff at a wall. Exactly. That's okay. We accept that.

I'm fine with that. What they're doing is they're saying that, but then also saying, oh, you guys just don't get it. You guys don't understand what we actually did. You guys don't get where we actually are. You're wrong. We're right. And in this city, and it's funny because it's

kind of a similar type of thing with the capler positivity thing but but different because the capler positivity thing i understand why people get upset with it but at the same time i'm okay with him not ripping his players like that is okay to me yeah but but i also i do like the it was a little refreshing the last we're gonna get into it're going to get into it because I really do too. And the stuff with Angelo was amazing. But just on a macro level, the concept that you can't lie to your fans. You can't treat us like we're stupid. Well, especially the High Hopes pod.

If the High Hopes pod is calling BS... That's what I'm saying. We have defended Matt Klintak to the death. We know exactly what they're doing. We are completely in lineintak to the death I mean we know We know exactly what they're doing We are completely in line We follow the team We read everything

We're with you guys We know the analytics And for us to come out And say like This is ridiculous Yes You can't talk that Like we know what we're talking about

What you're saying is Spin zone BS Then I think that's a bad look for the Phillies I agree with you Especially because Like it is an organization that there are reasons to be positive about, as we've discussed.

And if you do believe that they are still going to go out and make something happen this offseason, then there are real reasons to be excited about the future. As they are set organizationally in terms of the amount of, maybe not the highest event, but the quality of quantity of prospects that they have with the players they do have, with quantity of prospects that they have with the players they do have

with the financial flexibility that they have, which by the way, Andy McPhail, again, it's unbelievable to think that we don't know what you guys are getting in a television contract. We don't know the kind of money you guys have to spend. And you don't have to say you're going star hunting like Brett Brown did. It's outrageous. Just say, hey,

we're going to see what we can do this offseason. Boom. That's it. Whatever you want to say, just don't say don't get excited, guys. And did you look at the 2019-2020 class? Hey, maybe if you guys have shown up, we would have signed these guys, but since you didn't, okay. But to that point, I think

that they are in a solid spot, organizationally speaking, especially compared to where they were a couple years ago. That's good. Don't lie to us. Don't try and make it seem like you've done more than you have or that things are better than they are. It just turns us off. It does. It does. And the whole

the last couple days of press conferences have just been disastrous. Like, I defend the Phillies. I defend the modern way of baseball. I love it. As you should because it is the correct way. It's the correct way of baseball I love as you should because it is the correct it's the correct way it's just that when like when when you and I are like we're their core audience we're

the ones who should not be ripping them but the fact that they come out and they're like talking down like it's the problem I've had this problem with with Gabe a little bit and not in a month not a problem with Gabe it's just that there's some things he needs to not say and him coming out and I think we talked about this but and it's like And not a problem with Gabe. It's just that there's some things he needs to not say.

And him coming out and I think we talked about this, but in his final couple of manager shows, he mentioned Austin Davis' FIP. Yeah. And said that it's one of the best in the bullpen. It kills your other points. And it doesn't make anyone watching knows it doesn't happen. Well, it kills your credibility, right? It makes you seem like, why should I believe you about this if you're gonna tell

me that Austin Davis is an elite left-handed believer? Like, why should I believe you? Because I can see that he's not. Right, so that's one thing I think he's gonna learn from, and I think with Angelo, and in the last week or so, in his last post-game press conferences or media gatherings,

he showed a refreshing level of anger, and a refreshing level of humanness. And I thought yesterday's argument with Angelo, I think it actually helped him turn around some of the city. It made him seem like he was a human being for the first time and made him seem relatable. Yeah. Because the first time I was like, yeah, he actually looks like he cares that they lost. Yeah.

Well, let's dive into that because, and if you haven't heard it, it's on 94wip.com, all that stuff. It is, no joke, I've been listening to Philly Sports Radio my whole life. It's some of the best 15 minutes I've ever heard listening to Philly Sports Radio. That's how great a back and forth it was. And nobody won. Like, that was the thing, is they both were great.

Angelo was great. Kapler was great. Like, they really had great points on both sides, and it was a real boxing match. And I think Angelo was great. Kapler was great. Like, they really had great points on both sides, and it was a real boxing match. And I think Angelo appreciated it. I think Angelo, I think he respected Kapler more after it. Yeah, for sure. And look, I also think that I respect Gabe Kapler coming out and defending his guy.

I thought that was very respectable that he came out and said, hey, you can't call my guy Matt Klintak incompetent. That's not fair. Because it's not fair. Because it's not fair. And it's not. And I agree. And I appreciated that Gabe did that. He's sticking up for his guy.

The back and forth was so good. It was real. What was your biggest takeaway listing that? Obviously, we talked about kind of how it kind of made people look a little differently at Kapler. But from the content of it, what was your takeaway? My takeaway was I'm glad that he defended his guy. I think Klintzak, I think it was important for Gade to come out

and defend Matt Klintzak, and it showed some gall from the Phillies organization. Some guts. It was funny because a couple of moments in there, in the opening argument that he clearly had practiced in front of Amir for at least two days. I would say 100 times he did that thing. Maybe 150.

It was clear that it was a Klenczak and Phillies PR production to an extent. They had points that he wanted to make sure he got out there. And I was proud of Gabe. I was glad that he didn't back down. I'm also glad that at the end of the first little sparring match, or at the end, before they started getting into other questions about the team, he was like, he was going to say something. And he stopped himself.

And he stopped himself. He's like, I don't want to do this. I just want to know what he was going to say. Yeah, me too. It was about to take a shot, it sounded like. And he's like, uh-uh-uh, I'm going to pull this one back here. Would have been career suicide. Yeah, would have been the worst thing he could have done.

But I will say, I don't think Angelo speaks for all the Phillies fans, for sure. Agree. And I understand that he's got to say that I speak for the fans of this city. And look, I think there is a large portion of the fan base that Angelo does speak for, for sure. I think Angelo was, and we talk about this a lot, and we don't want to admit it to ourselves, because it just hurts to admit, but there was a disconnect to this Phillies team. I think that was Angela's strongest point,

and I think he was absolutely right in the sense that whatever you guys are saying down there, I talk to these people every day. This is my job, and people are not digging what you're putting out there. And that's a fact. It is. But to argue that to a different point is that if they had better players, this works.

And Gabe's right that if we win a lot and our offense isn't stagnant and has better offensive pieces, fans are going to show up. Listen, man, the Yankees are the most analytically driven organization in sports. It's so funny when everyone's like, go get Joe Girardi. It's like, the Yankees are the most analytically driven organization in sports. It's so funny when everyone's like, go get Joe Girardi. It's like, do you have any idea? Joe Girardi's as, if

not more, analytically inclined than Kepler is. Binder Joe. Binder Joe. People don't get that. He is pure

analytics. So they are very analytically driven. The Red Sox are as well. Fans show up because a team rakes. And fans are going to

show up if the Phillies rake. And even when they're on that stretch of first place baseball, they were in that because of starting fans show up because a team rakes okay and fans are going to show up if the phillies raked and even when they're on that stretch of first place baseball they were in that because the starting staff was so good and while i live for pitching i only care about pitching obviously and i want to i think the philly should hire me as a pitching guru i think i got good ideas and this is my my resume this is my resume um watching pitching duels every night no i can understand where people don't really love coming to the ballpark to watch pitching except for nola like nola's a different

um guy and he was right i think angelo is completely right in saying that there was a disconnect for this philly scene obviously there there's a certain faction of of listeners like the high hope spot like the listeners this podcast the fans this podcast the fans of analytics they were enjoying the team right night because you were seeing a different brand of baseball but for a guy who's watched it for a

while and hasn't really watched other baseball besides the Phillies to be thrown into this Carlos Santana leading off and sure all the I can understand and it and I thought the

Phillies did a kind of a bad job of trying to dumb it down to an extent you have to dumb it down to a hundred percent not all fans are like us like not all fans are like the faction of the fan base a fraction of the fan base that is pro analytics you have to make it for everybody and the people that are pro analytics aren't going to be like well that's dumb why would you say that we're going to be like okay

this makes sense like it's fine to explain it in a in a dumbed down version because you have to make everyone feel welcome and affiliates didn't do a good job of making everyone feel welcome yeah you have to make it relatable and palatable i have the same issue with announcers sometimes where where you know the broadcast team did not do a good job no no no they kind of set the tone yes i agree with you but i think announcers do a poor job of that too where it's explaining these things that you're talking about or using them in a way that is palatable or understandable for an audience that a lot of people don't understand them or care about them I think that's a great point and I think your point about localized baseball is true too I mean that's what the sport is now you know

the sport is a local sport most people don't watch a lot of baseball. You know me because I'll text you about like a random Brewers game in June. Like I'm always watching baseball. You're always watching baseball. But most people just watch their team. So if you've just been watching this specific Phillies team for the last decade, for your whole life, whatever it is, and then this comes in, and it is like the exact opposite polar opposite of what

you were before and they're not winning i can understand how that could be a frustrating thing for people right and then it makes and then it makes people think that it doesn't work which is we've had this we have had to have our analytics good for baseball conversation in this town this year which is just so mind-numbing like well yeah yeah, because it's a conversation that's already over. Yes, analytics work, period. There is a reason that 30 out of 30 teams use it. Well, except for the Mets. The Mets are going back to no analytics.

That was the reason. I can't even. That's the funny thing, too, is Mickey Calloway had a significantly worse rookie season as a manager than Gabe Kapler. And, you know, no one talks about it. They do think he's a dunce up there, though. Which they should.

He was way worse. He was embarrassing. And I liked Mickey Calloway as a pitching coach. Yeah. He was a disaster as the manager. There's not many pitching coach managers that work out. Like Bud Black's the big one that worked. Yeah.

That's a really good point, actually. You're right. It usually isn't pitching coaches that work out well there when you think about a lot of the great ones but um yeah i think that uh i think it's a really interesting point and i think that it's something i think angelo hit on something crucial there that there is a disconnect with all this stuff and that the phillies need to do something about that as an organization. And I think that, again, I know I ripped Danny McPhail before, but I'm happy that he brought up the positivity thing and that he is going to talk to Kapler about that.

And that's something Kapler is going to work on because even if I don't have a problem with it, which I've said a hundred times on this show that I don't, I'm fine with him being Mr. Positive Guy. I don't care what he says as long as his players believe in him. Who cares? Yeah, but don't. But I think it does matter from a

public PR standpoint in the sense that you need your fan base behind you and if it drives people crazy you have to find a way to mitigate it. But wasn't there a part of you that was like, come on man. Yeah, that's my point. Yes, of course. There's a point where you're like like you said, the Austin Davis thing or if you lose 14

to 1 you come out and say, well in the 7th inning this and that. He didn't really do that much the last couple weeks. I will say the last week. Yeah. The last week he came up. In the interview with Andrew, he's like, we sucked. I sucked.

Everything sucked. I was like, what? Yeah, that felt a little forced. It did. But at least he's acknowledging it. I know. I know. And in the postgame, I think before our last podcast, what did he say?

Like, it was a uh crap like shitty performance i think you said shitty performance yeah so i mean it's at some point it's it's fine to be like we'll we'll respect you for being yourself and i know gabe's self is positivity but there also be a part of you to where it's like man this is horrible because it'll be real and also i mean listen i i fundamentally do not believe that the Phillies quit this season. I know there's a lot of people that think they quit. I just think if you played baseball and you were on a bad baseball team, you're like, oh my God, I want the season to be over.

Well, and imagine, I feel the same way. We're human beings, right? These guys are human beings. They have human emotions and stuff. Not just once the season is over, but when season was over is when like you just stop caring like so i understand the atlanta series they didn't quit in the atlanta series they just lost to atlanta they weren't as good as just because you lose games doesn't mean you quit right and those colorado everyone points that colorado series it's like they just got eliminated they were done and they go to

colorado to face a team that is playing for the playoffs every game matters every win matters as it showed as they went down to the freaking tie at the end of the season every game mattered for them like of course they're gonna beat your ass no one wants to be there the season's over i like that is not gabe capler's fault that is human beings being humans right and i think i think i think people who are ripping the saying they quit if you're if you're in that position i throw out the millions of dollars saying whatever. They're still human beings. Like, if you're on a baseball team and your baseball team is done and you're playing like crap, like, it's just miserable to be there. It's not fun to be there.

All you want to do is go home. And I love baseball, but there was times where I was like, I just want to go home. I don't want to sit here in the dugout anymore. Like, it's just natural natural human emotion I will say I will say before that when it all was going to crap there had to be someone who stepped up in the locker room and we said before like I just didn't see that but I'm not going to say they quit I just think like I just think they were just done I I feel the same way I think they wore down and I think at a certain point they were just done and I don't think there's any manager on the planet

who could have gotten them to change that attitude or change that. Exactly. It's being a human, and it's understanding that. And I think that's a really good point, Jack. And I think that was one of the biggest things that we heard is, he lost the locker room. People quit on him. And I thought that was patently unfair.

I really agree with you on that one and and look i think that in addition to that talking about like you know being human and all that it's 162 game grind man like they're playing 162 games in what like 170 days or something insane like that like there's so few off days it's such a long grind especially when you are competing and then think about when you are going through a slump and it's getting worse and worse and then you're just done. Like, what are you going to do? Be like, no, let's win these last few fellows. Let's go get them.

Like, it's just not the way people are. Like, ideally, we all want them to be, right? Of course, I want, you all want a team of 25 guys who could be 0-1-1-61 and are going to play that 160 second game like it's the World Series. Of course you do. But that's just not reality. Yeah.

It's definitely not baseball. It's not baseball. All right. So there's a very, a bit of a disappointing right now. This is like, usually we're pretty positive. We're usually very Gabe Kapler-esque on the High Ops podcast. It's a bit of a disappointment right now. And I think that I don't want to get lost in the fact that, again,

just to hammer home on the fact that I do think the Phillies are in a very good spot organizationally speaking. Very healthy organization. Very healthy organization. When you're looking at their international resources, when you look at their adding more teams, they're adding more minor league teams, they're adding more scouting directors,

I think they have what's on the record. I think they have the third biggest analytics department in the NL, which I think is important. Overall, they are in a very, very healthy spot as a team, as a depth. They have all this depth. They have all these scouts everywhere. They're doing what they can to win big and win for a long time and win sustainably. You still have to hit this offseason.

Yeah. Oh, this offseason is everything. It's so important. Although I will say, the 2020 class is pretty dope. It's good too. I know. Rendon, Arenado, Sale. Arenado.

That's my guy. I love Arenado. Have you looked at the road splits? They're not as bad. You sure you want Nolan Arenado? Yeah, I want Nolan the road splits they're not as bad you sure you want Nolan Aronado yeah I want Nolan Aronado they're not as bad

I mean the power's still there it should be average drops for some reason but the power's still there are you sure yeah best defensive third baseman in the game

no he's not yeah I think he is no he's not Matt Chapman oh Matt Chapman's really good and guess what they went to the same high school really

they went to the same high school who the hell is that fielding coach what yeah that's insane not at the same high school. Really? They went to the same high school. Who the hell is that fielding coach? What? Yeah. That's insane. Not at the same time. But like. Still. But still. That fielding coach or whoever the head coach is. Hell yeah. Those guys are freaks defensively. Alright. So what do

we need to see from the Phillies? Obviously they need to go out and spend some money. And they're going to. I still believe that. I don't care what Andy McPhail said. I believe that the Phillies are going to go out and put on the full court press i think they were just you know they saw brett brown saver star hunting and come up empty they see reactions to stuff like that i think that they were just managing expectations and annie mcphail's been in baseball a long time he said this is the smart thing to do we need to make sure that people don't put all their eggs in one basket but i still

believe they're going to go out and they're going to spend money this offseason. I agree with you. And one thing I forgot to mention that I took away from Klintak's press conference and most McFails was it really felt like this season was a big, giant experiment from them. And I don't think we're going to see

the same kind of things next year. I think it's going to be much more traditional, analytically-driven organization rather than, like, they did some some like batting roman quinn third some weird stuff i i'm behind most of the line decisions i just want to ask what like i i'm open to it i want to know i just want to know what the thought process was behind batting roman quinn third i don't know it was weird to me um but i think this season was one giant big experiment for Klintzak and Kapler and McPhail. And I just think that next year, they're not going to take the same kind of risks with where they put guys and the lineup and the bullpen guys.

I view this season as they want to try new things. They want to see what will work, what would not work. And Klintzak has mentioned that. He has mentioned that we found some things we liked and we found some things that we didn't like. And we'll fix has mentioned that. He has mentioned that we found some things we liked, and we found some things that we didn't like, and we'll fix that going forward. And while competing was fun for a long time, it was never really the goal this year. It was never the plan.

It was never the plan. They went for it, corrected them. They went for it. They tried to do what they could. And Gabe did mention yesterday that he thought that some of the bets did mess up the team chemistry. I heard that, which was interesting. He had to mention it.

I mean, like, it had to have. I guess so. I'm sure some of the younger players were annoyed that their playing time was cut. Would you be? I would be, too. Especially if you go into the season expecting it to be one thing and you're going through the entire season, then all of a sudden it's not, especially when you're the guys who got them into the position to be competing.

But also, like, you can't tell me that taking a 223 and 278 73 i'm not really moves i've still felt good about the moves at the time i appreciated it but it is it is interesting in hindsight to think about how it affected it that way but um look i think that i also think that we haven't mentioned this too i do think that kapler maybe got a little uh went a little overboard in September. I think the 40-man rosters were maybe more of a hindrance for him than a help.

Yeah, he got a little excited. He got a little excited. It's like, chill, Gabe. You don't have to make a move just to make a move right now. It felt like he was a little aggressive. Yeah, and I think it's fine that he went through that.

I think it's fine that he... It was good. It's rookie year. Let's get that stuff out of the way. And that's one of the things that people have to look at as rookie year manager. Again, I think it's a really good point. It's like you. Let's get that stuff out of the way. And that's one of the things that people have to look at is rookie year manager. Again, I think it's a really good point.

It's like you have to let them grow a little bit. A little bit. And you also have to let the staff grow. You have to let the staff grow. They're a young, talented group. They have legit high upside arms. And the fact that they went through this. It was big.

And they learned how to pitch in September was big. I think the whole team getting those reps is big. Right. Right. And I'm glad they played more of the kids the last couple weeks. They didn't really have a choice. They had to. Because people got hurt.

Yeah. But it was good to see them out there. And I just think it's important to get those reps. But again, Gabe, I thought it settled down in the middle of the season with all the moves and pulling guys early and moving guys around. And I understand that late in the season, pulling Kingery in the second inning was a good decision. They won the game.

People never mentioned that they won that game. It's only that they pulled Kingery. Classic. But yeah, I agree. I think he went a little haywire in September and was like, oh, I have all this stuff I can use. I'm going to do everything. And I don't think you always have to do everything.

I think he learned that. It's rookie year. I agree. And again, rookie year as a manager. I mean, this guy had never managed above what, like the Independent League or the Israeli baseball team. It was like single A 10 years ago. That's the point.

I mean, give this guy a chance to learn and understand what his job is and what his role is. And I do think he grew over the year. And look, I know that some people think it's hokey but I love him sending out uh anonymous questionnaires to the team and the coaches and saying how can I be better I love that kind of stuff you know I mean at least he cares at least he's willing to say all right I'm not the best at this I know that I can get better I can improve tell me how I can improve I thought that was important and I know some people think it's hokey but I really like that

and all the players did mention in you know the last couple of interviews about how if you came to him with an idea, he would listen to it, and he wouldn't just completely shun you away, which isn't important. Well, and also, they said that he would explain his decisions to them. It wasn't like he would just do something and not tell them why he's doing it. Constant communication. Constant communication. Look, I'm a Gabe guy. I still am a Gabe guy, and I will be a Gabe guy. I believe in the guy, and I think he deserves a chance for people to back off just a little bit

and give him a chance to improve on some of these things that we've been ripping him for. And that interview the other day was an important way, an important start to that. I agree. I think you're right. I think that interview alone probably garnered him more support from the segment of the fan base that wasn't supporting him than anything else he did. Yeah. And we got callers last night saying like, I like him more now.

Yeah. I used to not like him that much, but now I like him more. Yeah. Which I think is important. It's important to change the perception. And that's the one thing that sinks Sam Hickey was the public perception. Yes. It's the one thing that sunk him.

And it's, it's sunk so many people. I mean, in organizations, if you're in a city, especially in a city like this, like we may, you know, joke about sometimes we don't always be, we're not always the smartest baseball fans or sometimes we're not always the best in this way and that way, but we are passionate. And you know what we're good at? Is sniffing out BS. Yeah. It's the one thing that I think is the best quality of the city is we sniff out BS.

And I never thought Gabe was BSing people. There's a little bit of BSing there. Yeah. And these last couple days, the Phillies have been justifiably ripped for trying to BS fans. And I'm glad that we're kind of being like, no, this isn't going to last. Like, you need to be real with us. We will respect you more. A hundred percent.

And I think honestly, other than signing Bryce Harper and Manny Machado, which we have both talked about the massive importance we feel in this offseason and what they have to do, I honestly think other than that,

I think the most important thing this organization has to deal with this offseason is their messaging, is the way that they are, like we talked about, is portraying themselves to the fans and endearing themselves to this fan base. Ultimately, Andy McPhail, your comments that people aren't showing up

and that hurts the team is right. If you want them to show up, don't rip them. Don't call them out for not showing up. Put a good product on the field, and people will show up. All right, Jack, any other thoughts before we argue? Oh, what are we arguing about? We gotta throw this in at the end here, right?

No, I think I'm good. I'm all taked out. Except for your take that Theo Epstein sucks. What a horrible take this is! Once again, proven right, Theo Epstein is the single most overrated GM in all

of sports. He is viewed as a messiah. He is a good builder of a core. After the core is built, he is brutally average as a GM. 194 combined years

of sadness and frustration that dude ended it. 194 years. That is not the point I am making. But it's the point. He built those cores, which I acknowledge. But everything after that

is not as good as what he did to build that core because he creates friction inside of organizations and they do not have his back when things go wrong. He is a overrated GM. He signed Hugh Darvish, who was garbage, and I knew he was garbage. He signed Tyler Chadwood.

He brought in Jorge De La Rosa, who stinks. You can't pick out specific moves. I just did. You sure did. He sure did. He did it after he won the Cubs their first World Series in 180 years. Because of the core he built. You can't take away the core building. He took these 194 years of frustration.

He wins World Series and gets lazy. Oh, man. Such a bad take. Such a bad take. Such a bad take. You can't take one and not the other and say he's overrated. He did that. Jack is turning around in his chair, just turning away from me right now. It's so, I can't even.

Deep down inside. I can't even wrap my head around this take. Deep down inside, Cubs fans agree with me. They don't want to admit it, but they agree. Theo Epstein will never have to buy a beer in Chicago. Speaking of other things, so they might fire Joe Maddon. Which is crazy, by the way. Would you move on from Gabe to bring in Joe Maddon?

Look, it's not a fair question. Let's put it this way. I think it would be a gigantic mistake to fire Joe Maddon. I'll just leave it at that well if there's friction what are they gonna do fire Theo no

right what are they gonna do greatest team builder of all time how could you fire Theo team builder bad after that he won two world series

in Boston oh man I love I love that take it's so bad I know it's great it will be interesting though the Mad. It will be interesting, though.

The Madden thing will be interesting because you know, look, we had it with Girardi. We had it with whoever. If they fire Joe Madden, Phillies fans will be calling for Joe Madden. There's no question. And then they'll be like, oh, look, he's- Analytics! Same thing, right? Get that guy.

He's a better version. I would not do that. I would give Gabe more time. I think Gabe has earned more time. Just because Joe Madden is available doesn't mean that he's the right fit. But again, I wouldn't be killing them either. If they brought in Joe Maddon, I'm not going to...

If you have a chance to get Joe Maddon, it's really hard to say no. I understand it. Exactly. That's exactly right. He's a great, great manager who still has the same ideals and thoughts that I have and the way I like to go about baseball. So I would be okay with it, but just in a vacuum, I think it would be unfair to move on

from Gabe Kapler after this season. The Cubs did move on from Rick Ranaria to bring in Joe Maddon at a critical point in their franchise. Yeah, it worked out. It did work out. So we'll see. I don't know.

It's interesting. I agree with you, but I wouldn't kill him for it. And that's the takeaway, right? Like, again, like you said, if Joe Maddon is the Phillies manager, I'm very happy with that because I think he's a great manager. It's proven he's a great manager. But again, if they don't do that because Gabe deserves more time,

I'm okay with that too. Fair. I think it's the way to take it. All right. Any final thoughts or takes, Fritzy? No. I don't know how to say this. It's good.

This was cathartic. I felt like we needed this. Yeah, yeah. And it felt like they needed an ass kicking. Yes. Matt, Andy, less Gabe. It's funny because I feel like Gabe all year has taken all the bullets, all the hits for the most part.

And now I think it's not just me, right? I think it's fair to say that even on a macro sense right now, I think more people are upset with Klentac and McPhail right now than with Gabe. Yeah, I would say so as well. Rate and review the podcast always makes me very happy. Do it for Jack. And I send James happy text messages. Check this one out.

I know. It's the best. It is the best. So do it for Jack. Do it for us. We'll do it on 100 five-star reviews. 87. We'll do something.

By the next pod, Jack and I will figure out what we'll do something we'll buy the next pod Jack and I'll figure out what we'll do when we get to a hundred for somebody that's fair for everybody yeah that's fair for the people something fun and we're gonna get some guests on this offseason we're gonna have fun we're gonna be here all offseason though we're gonna get some major guests yeah we're gonna get some big guests and we are also like literally just whenever free agency opens

the emergency pods we're ready we're a hundred percent locked in for sure sure. Can't wait. Alright. We love you guys. All-Star Closer, Kenley Jansen, we have a question. What's the best podcast of all time? Baseball isn't boring, baby. I'm Rob Bradford, and every single day I'm sitting down with the biggest names to show you this great game is the greatest game.

It's my podcast. It's my passion. It's a cause I started more than two years ago. It is now the most prolific national daily baseball pod there is. Another fact, so jump aboard the B.I.B. Express. Follow and listen to Baseball Isn't Boring, presented by Wasabi Hot Cloud Storage on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.