High Hopes: A Phillies Podcast - The High Hopes Phillies Podcast: No, we didn't get Machado

Episode Date: July 20, 2018

The Phils strike out on Machado and Brad Hand leaving this team in an interesting spot. Should they go for it or let these guys develop? James Seltzer and Jack Fritz get into it. They also talk about other trade candidates and look ahead to the second half. See omnystudio.com/policies/listener for privacy information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Yo, oh no, we didn't get Manny Machado. You see what I did there, Jack Fritz? It rhymed beautifully. I'm happy. I'm happy about that. Thank you. Yeah, look, last time we talked to you, it's James Houser, Jack Fritz. Last time we talked to you,

we were both feeling pretty good about the chances of Emmanuel Machado coming to Philadelphia. And obviously that has not happened. He is now a Los Angeles Dodger. Fritzy, take me through your whole range of emotions as this whole saga of Manny Machado kind of went down here. Well, yeah.

It's like I was pretty convinced, and I went to bed, and I was happy. I was pretty convinced and I went to bed and I was happy. I was like, we're going to get Manny Machado two days away from getting a legit top five player in the game and all that stuff. And then it happened. The Heyman tweet came out and originally I was like, John Heyman's full of crap. I don't believe a word he says until someone else confirms it, I'm not believing anything because Heyman is BS. And then I saw it going down, and I was just like, all right, it's over. Because, you know, here's what happened is that it was a done deal.

It was all good to go. He was going to be a Philly. And then they came in with just a better prospect. They came with a better prospect. They came in with a hitting prospect. Hitting prospects almost never become available, especially elite hitting prospects like Diaz is supposed to be. And Medina's a nice player.

The Phillies had a really nice package. But unless they were going to put Jalen Ortiz or Sixo Sanchez in the deal, it just wasn't going to happen. And the Dodgers came in the 12th hour, and they put in the guy that was going to trump the Phillies card, and the Phillies just weren't going to go there. And to be honest with you, after a day of processing it, I wasn't mad. I am proud of Matt Klintzak for not putting six of Sanchez in the deal.

I thought it showed a bunch of testicular fortitude not to do that, and I am glad he did it. I know it showed a bunch of particular fortitude not to do that, and I am glad he did it. I know it sucks. I know we're not going to get Manny Machado, but the Phillies are building into a sustainable championship contender, and giving away elite prospects is not the best way to do that. So I'm fine with it. Would I have loved Manny Machado?

Yes. I also don't think the Dodgers are going to be able to resign. I'm like, if he, if, if, if the Phillies come to him and offer him 350 million and the Dodgers offer him like 250 million,

like he's not going to turn down a hundred extra million dollars to stay in LA. He is clearly open to Philadelphia. He appreciated all the, the chance a couple of weeks ago. He knows the front office really well. I, I just, I, I don't think they're going to be outbid. I left the negotiations saying they will not be outbid

for Manny Machado this offseason, and they did the right thing by not putting Cicco Sanchez in the deal. Yeah, I'll go a step further. I think Manny Machado is going to be a Philly in 2019. And you actually retweeted this as well but the bill shaken tweet uh la beat reporter from foreign zaidi the gm for the dodgers on machado's pending free agency said this is about 2018 for us we hope he plays well and creates a good market for himself that doesn't

that's zaidi on machado that is foreign zahan Zaidi. I know, but who says that? That's my point. That makes no sense. The point is they are not re-signing Machado. Look, they could afford to give up Diaz. They have three or four other prospects who are ranked higher than Diaz. And Diaz, granted, a top 30 prospect, top 40 prospect, a legit hitting prospect like you said,

but they have some high-end talent in their system and also their window is is tighter like you said you pointed it out that that's really the point here is that the Phillies originally and always were building for 2019 and beyond and I think always had their sights set on Machado then and Harper then or whatever they could get in that spot. And I think that in addition to that, like they had an opportunity to, to potentially get Machado. And like you said, Jack, that, that age couldn't match Diaz and same thing with Brad hand going to the Indians. The Indians gave up a top five, 10 or 10 prospect in baseball, the best catching prospect in the sport. Like, like, and even though hand is cost controlled, um, you know, the best catching prospect in the sport. And even though hand is cost

controlled, the Phillies couldn't give that up. They don't have that. Not even Sixto is that. And who knows what the Padres were looking for. But ultimately, I'm with you, Jack. I think that it was smart of Matt Klintak to show restraint in this situation. I think they got excited about the potential of bringing Machado in. I think the fan base got excited. And, of course, it's a bummer when you, in your head, you've already slotted Machado in the lineup and you're deciding where he's going to hit and you're seeing him in Philly's pinstripes.

But I think, like you said, ultimately, I think the key is they showed restraint, Jack. And look, that doesn't mean that they're not going to do something. They are going to make moves here coming up that won't take from the real people who can help you long term. And there's a lot of depth in this Phillies farm system. Yeah, and I'm pretty upset that they didn't get Brad Hand. But at the same time, dude, they were never going to match what the Indians

gave up. The Indians also have a small World Series window. They have Andrew Miller leaving after this season. They have Cody Allen. Both of those guys are going to hit the free agent market. They had to keep it together while they have Jose Ramirez, Francisco Lindor, all those young guys.

And the bullpen, clearly by far the weakness of their team. It was easily diagnosable. Right, guys. And the bullpen, like, clearly by far the weakness of their team. It was easily diagnosable. Right, right. And Andrew Miller's been hurt, so obviously that's hurt that a little bit. But, yeah, it's just like losing Brad Hand sucks. The Phillies, they were never going to be able to match that offer. They just weren't.

I mean, he is one of the best catching prospects in the game, if not the best. He is the best. He's the best. He's a really good player. Man, that Padres system is disgusting, but they're still the Padres, so I'm not fully sold on them yet. But the Phillies

have gotten unlucky by teams coming in and trumpeting their offers. That's all it is. And the Phillies system is based off of a bunch of major league caliber depth. They don't have the high-end guys. Like, Sixto is a high-end prospect. He's one of the best pitching prospects in the game. If he's healthy, he's probably one of the two best. But their system is based on depth.

And sometimes depth can help you win trades. But when a team can just throw that star on the table and they also have a really small world series window, there's just nothing the Phillies can do about this. I know people are gonna be outraged. Like why isn't Clint Zach doing anything? But they, they can't is,

is pretty much as simple as, as we can put it. Yeah. And again, I go back to the point that this team was always being built for 2019 and beyond, and it is awesome that they are competing now. And I think for most people, unexpected. And again, it's not like Matt Klintak didn't try and go out and get Machado.

He just got outbid. It looks like they were the final team. Like maybe the Brewers were right there with them too, but the Phillies were right there for getting Manny Machado and they didn't get him. Like you can't play Matt Kent, the Clint tag for that, for, for going like, Oh, he should have gone. He should have given up six though. Like, is that what you want? And, and then on top of that, um, uh, and the Brad ham wasn't even close. I mean, I get me here at least, you know, it depends on where you look. I know Keith Laudam is the fifth best prospect in baseball.

He's generally anywhere from five to ten. I've seen him as high as four in places. Mejia is a legit, legit prospect that if the Padres were looking for a hitting prospect back, the Phillies can't do that. They can't give that type of guy up. But like you said, Jack, I think the depth point is so key that, that they might not have a bunch of guys in the top five or top 10 or guys in that range, but they have a bunch of guys who are, are good, legit prospects that could be good major league players. And they just have a really deep system. Um, so I think

that, like you said, it's's gonna help them in future trades as well and hopefully with the potential for moves coming up they might not have to give up as much with that in mind a few of the names that have been thrown out just get your take on some of these why don't we start with the bats and then we'll get to the brad hand list relief pitcher market but looking at the bats fritzy i think the name that's been mentioned the most is mike mistak is where you come down on moose no no i don't want mike i a lot of people think that he'd be rejuvenated coming into a a playoff run maybe but franco's been better than him i would rather just hold on to franco i don't like you are such an franco apologize but he is i'll take moose i'll take moose right now for what give me for nothing he's owed three million for the rest of the year i'm guessing the rock the royals just want to get

that off their books what are you gonna do with franco i don't know you're gonna bench franco the guy that i trade trade him trade him somewhere For what? Look, but you know Franco. He's going to suck again. That's what always happens. Wait, wait, wait. Wait, wait, wait, wait. So you want to trade Franco and bring in Mike Moustakis,

who was a free agent at the end of the year, and then do what? No, no. I don't really want to trade Franco. You can platoon Franco or whatever you need to do, but I would trade Franco if there were a deal for him, obviously in a second.

But look, I, I, I think you need to bring another bat in here. Obviously you need Franco right now if he's hitting, but do you, you, you're one of the few people who actually believes that Franco is going to

continue hitting this way for the rest of the season. I don't know. He's never done it. He never does it until I see this guy actually show that consistency that he has shown since he's been dropped to the eight hole over a longer period of time than a month or two weeks or whatever here or there like it's it's hard to believe it it's hard to believe that that's something that I'm going to bank my team on and it looks like the

Phillies have done that too I mean they basically gave up on the dude and then Crawford got hurt again like it's not like the Phillies are are super uh invested in Franco if if in that case they're willing to bury him on the bench I don't know like if you if I get a good offer from Franco, I would trade him. Right, and a good offer, but you have no game plan if you don't get Machado this offseason. Are we going to re-sign Mike Moustakis? I don't know. But if you don't believe Mike Al Franco is a long-term answer at third base, what does it matter?

Because at least he's been semi-competent at third base. He's been good for the last month. He has been good for the last month. This is the best he's been semi-competent at third base. He's been good for the last month. He's been better. He has been good for the last month. This is the best he's been since his rookie year. Right. And look, I think that they probably considered, I think that, look, they benched him before that.

So what? No, I'm saying that he has to do that for longer to get from being benched to being the future third baseman of the Philadelphia Phillies. I don't think he's the future third baseman of the Philadelphia Phillies, but I also don't want to just go get Mike Moustakas and not have a backup plan if they don't get Machado next year. I don't know. Unless you do that, I would rather, if you're going to go down that road,

I would rather take a flyer on a motivated Josh Donaldson. I would love to get Donaldson too. I'm fine with that too. Again, my point is you don't have to trade Franco to get Moustakas. No, I don't think so either. Right. But I'm just saying if I had an offer, they said the Padres were interested in Franco and this and that.

If they wanted to give up something for Franco, one of their high-end prospects or whatever, I would do that. That is my point. I agree with you. I would do that. Franco for Denelson LeMet, who says no. I think the Phillies might say no. It depends on LeMet's health.

He's had the issues. But, like, if it's for Luis Urias or for... Well, that's not possible. It's not going to happen is my point. So regardless. We're spending a lot of time on that one. Way too much. Mike Alfranco has become such a divisive thing for us.

All right, off Moustakas. So the point is you're not interested in third baseman. I mean, because that seems to be the players who are most linked to this team. Obviously, a shortstop would help. I mean, what are you looking for in a bat? Because they haven't really, you know, we've heard Whit Merrifield. We've heard, obviously, Adrian Beltre, some names like that. I think they're going to trade for a bat, don't you?

Yeah, I think they have to. But also, like Williams has been good for a month now. Franco is good. It's tough because you have to balance this year's team versus building for the future. So do you really want to bring in a shortstop and stunt Scott Kingery's growth, or do you want to let him play and figure it out and hope that by the end of the year he feels good and heading into the offseason? Franco, I know you're down on him,

but if he continues to hit this well, maybe... I understand the whole he got benched thing, but sometimes you can be benched and then you can go win the Super Bowl. So, I mean, maybe Franco's the next Nick Foles. You love Nick Foles, so that makes sense. Nick Williams was also benched for Aaron

Altair and he's come around and he's taken the everybody right through with Jack. No, I know. I was just talking about it from an organizational belief in Franco. And, yeah, that's it. Right, right. But, well, the organization also didn't believe in Nick williams so that's maybe the organization is the problem here anyway um yeah all of a sudden you're standing for nick

williams what's going on here this is well i mean it's like an alternate reality that i'm living in i'm just saying like do you really want to stunt the young guy's growth to bring in with merrifield i like with merrifield i would would really, really like Whit Merrifield just from the average standpoint and not striking out standpoint, the OBP standpoint. He's a really, really good player. But I guess he would just play third base. So I feel like the take from you,

and Eddie Escobar is another name that we're hearing a fair amount of a few others. Right. So I guess it feels like the take from you is that you think they need to add a bat, but you're not really sure how they're going to add that bat into the lineup without something growth or whatever is kind of where you're at. And it sounds crazy because the lineup is – We're back.

That's what I mean. Like, I'll replace people. That's where I'm at. Yeah, but is this the season to replace people? Well, I don't – that's where i'm at yeah but is this the season to replace well i don't that's the point like you just went from wanting them to trade for manny machado to being like out on 2018 you know i mean like yeah but they're in first place like they're in first place right now and the the key is like i get it i'm all for developing young players. I think it's crucial. I think getting them the reps they need,

whether both in the majors and minor leagues and not putting them up in the majors, if they won't get the reps they need, all that type of stuff. But at the same time, they're in first place in the National League East and they could potentially get bats that could make them better for a very cheap cost. At that point, you have to say,

all right, like we have to weigh the development and maybe sun it a little bit by, you know, limiting those bats or those opportunities in order to make this team better now, because it's baseball and it's the playoffs and we have good pitching and who the hell knows. Like, I think that that's, you know what I mean i mean like i understand what you're saying with the development thing and i believe in it but at the same time i think when you're in first place the all-star break and have a team that is competing i think you owe it to that team and to the coaching staff and to the fan base to to fortify it there if you have the opportunity so So you're bringing in Eduardo Escobar to play every day at shortstop

and you're just going to put Kingery on the bench and then Eduardo Escobar is going to walk and you're going to put Kingery right back out there? It's just weird to me. I don't know. Maybe we either go from process to progress, like the Sixers would say. It's just tough for me

to completely stunt the growth of players. Well, first of all, we don't know if Kingery's a shortstop long-term, right? I mean, that's still a question. I don't think he is. Exactly. So what are those reps doing there for him? And you can get Kingery into the game. You can get him in the lineups.

It won't be as much as he wants. But, look, he hasn't been good enough. If you to look at and again he's getting better and and the reps matter but so you're saying you'd be willing to give up a chance at the playoffs or a playoff spot or whatever to to develop Scott Kingery this season right now in this situation they're in over the last I mean we're talking about 60 games of development i mean i feel like it's it's far more important to fight for the playoffs i i really do and i think that those reps are crucially important playoff reps and important september reps and all that and then kingery becomes like your chris taylor guy or or max yeah well not as good yeah whatever

you get him in the lineup. But I think you have a guy, especially, again, like it all comes back to not mortgaging the future to do it. But I think if you can get guys that will make you better and you don't have to give up a lot to do it, I think they should do it. Yeah, but then Crawford comes back. And what do you do with him?

You just put him on the bench or send him to AAA? I don't love it. I don't love it. I still think this is the period of figuring out who your guys are. And to bring in guys who are going to make the team, like maybe a right field upgrade. Get someone in right field. Going and getting Eduardo Escobar, who's a nice player,

just doesn't move the needle for me. I would rather just put Kingery out there. If you're going to go get a Nick Castellanos, who I know is dog crap in the field, that's a legit bet. Hey, Eduardo Escobar has been really good this year. He's like third in the league in extra base hits. He's been legit. Whatever, though.

That's the point, right? Because then you, you like, I feel like you are overrating a small sample size of reps at the end of a season or the later part of a season. By the time the trade deadlines happens, there's what, like 50 ish games left.

I mean, uh, like, Oh, what are we talking about here? And for the opportunity to go to the playoffs, Eduardo Escobar right now is a much better hitter than Scott Kingery. It's not close.

No, but that's not really, like, these last 50 games is going to be a full season in the major leagues. So you're going to get your body. Right, but that's another factor in the sense that these kids are young. Like, maybe it's not best that Scott Kingery plays 150 games this year. Maybe he, I mean, he's never played more than what? Like 110, 120, whatever they play deep into the minors. I mean, I like, I don't know.

I feel. So why not get in the 150 this first year? And then now it's like, this is what my body has to be ready for going forward. If you were 42 and 47 right now or 42 and 50 or whatever, sure. This team's contending for a playoff spot. Like they're in first place. I get it. I'm all for development,

but a certain point you have to weigh the, the now and, and that, especially when we're not talking about giving up pieces for the future, you're just giving him 40% less playing time over the last 50 games of the season or 60% less playing time or whatever it is. I don't know. I, I, I, we, you Fritz and I are usually on the same page here. I vehemently disagree. Let us know. I very rarely say ask the Twitter sphere or whatever to weigh in on something, but at James Seltzer at Jack for his WIP,

what do you guys think? Like, cause I think there's a fascinating philosophical discussion here, Jack, in the sense that like, cause I, I get it. I get the development thing, but it seems in first place. I I'm, I I'm, I'm surprised you're on the side you're on. I guess it's because... I don't know. I want them to go for it, but I also... I'm very much still on the mode of

I want to make sure... I want to find out which guy is which. And, you know, getting these guys important reps... Even if it's not October. Even if it's not in a wildcard game. Getting the reps down the stretch and having these guys playing big games. Like, Scott Kingery not in a wildcard game, getting the reps down the stretch and having these guys playing big games.

Like Scott Kingery playing in a game for first place in August and September, it's like I think that's important to the growth of a player instead of just bringing in Eduardo Escobar, who hasn't been here all year, doesn't understand the culture. Like, I don't know. Mike Moustakis, he stinks.

He had 38 home runs last year he has 19 this year he's batting like he's been like 250 he does what he does every year the 298 ob pit anyway uh i i i don't know these guys playing in big games down the stretch is important i think it's important and maybe maybe a right field upgrade. I mean, Williams is the one I feel best about compared to King. I know, but you know how to feel. I know. Well, that's your problem. Well, all right.

Well, I think people are probably tired of listening to us argue about this. But I do think it's a really philosophical discussion. I'm interested to see what people think because I think there's merit to both sides, as I said. I just think when you're in this case at you know first place but speaking of first place Jack like uh real quickly uh any other oh I meant to fire this at you and then we'll get to kind of looking ahead here as we kind of preview the second half of the season starting or the metaphorical second half but uh before we get all on a tangent about the bats I never got to ask you about the relief pitchers on the market who theoretically could be available.

We'll take Rice Elias off the board. It doesn't look like the Reds are too inclined to trade him, especially because they think that he could still be a starter for them. But a few names who make some sense, some closers who are maybe on the back end or have some question marks, but are also the guys who should be available for cheap based on their contract status or whatever. Zach Britton, obviously a name we've talked about a fair amount,

starting to look better. Are you still in on Britton like you were before? Yeah, yeah, I think he's starting to round into shape. He's been up to 98 the last couple days. And I guess here's another part of my equation from the first part. the last couple days. And I guess here's another part of my equation from the first part. I think there's ways to build this team around an offense that is still growing.

I think adding a bullpen piece makes the team better automatically. Maybe adding a starter, a competent, not a competent starter, they're all competent, but a guy who's been in this situation before. The Phillies right now have one guy in their starting staff who's pitched over 200 innings in a season. That's Jake Arrieta. None of these guys have pitched more than 200 innings in a season. That's a cause for concern.

Vince Velasquez pitched like 72 innings last year. No, that's a great point, Jack. So I don't hate, like I think there's ways to build a team in in another way besides just looking at offense i know the offense is dog crap manny machado is obviously a different story that's a that's a difference maker yes i understand right right anyway so uh you asked about uh britain britain britain's back britain's back up to 98 the sinker starting to get legit. Sink again. I would have no qualms about going after Zach Britton.

I would make Medina untouchable, 6-0 untouchable, Jalen, Paisley. And they could have a top-temper aspect towards the back end. Yeah, I don't even think I'd go that far. I don't think he'd have to go quite that far. Look, Britton, I think, has allayed some fears, but I don't think he'd have to go quite that far. Look, Britton, I think, has allayed some fears, but I don't think the sample size. Look, if he has, let's say, five or six outings before the deadline, he looks awesome in all of them.

All right, then I think he'd get there. But I think a two-month rental of Zach Britton, it'll be interesting to see what that price is. And again, the interesting thing with the Phillies farm system is the top 10 is different everywhere you look because there is such depth in it. And Jojo Romero is Keith Law's 49th best prospect in all of baseball. And Baseball America has him as the Phillies' sixth best prospect.

So you never really know with that. All right, a couple more. Joaquin Soria has been pitching pretty well for the White Sox. Obviously, closer experience. Not a sexy name, but any interest in a Joaquin Soria? Sure. I feel like he's been around for a decade. The greatest nickname.

He didn't like it, so they stopped using it. But the Mexicutioner, one of the great nicknames of all time. That's great. Yeah. I mean, Soria's been in big games before. He's pitched down the stretch before. I don't totally trust him, but he's had a good season. He's been so weird up and down for the last six years.

Like, one year good, one year bad, one year good, one year bad. I don't know what Joaquin Soria I'm going to get. I know he's pitched well recently, but I feel like he can go into a tailspin at any moment. But a cheap back end of the bullpen guy. Fernando Rodney. So wait, here's the thing. Here's the thing.

I've come full circle on Rodney because I hated him. For like the last five years, I'm like, he's going to suck. He's going to suck. He's a terrible pitcher. He's not a good pitcher. And every year he's awesome.

And again this year, he's been awesome. He just, he gets out and gets saves and for a team that could use a guy you could just plop down in the ninth inning and say these guys are closer you could do worse than fernando rodney as crazy as that sounds i don't think i would like rooting for fernando rodney like i i think it would give me a heart attack every time i i don't think it's the relief of the arrow at the end jack yeah no now if i'm getting 2013 fernando rodney who was just unbelievable like it was 98 with that that bugs bunny change up with his uh that's a different story i don't know man i think i think he's

effective but i feel like watching him would give me an end i think that's kind of a fair kind of point there as like the numbers have been really good for him as at least from a a saves perspective um every season as uh he's been getting the job done i believe he led the league in saves a couple years ago if i'm not mistaken uh regardless um i do think that uh he's someone who at least you could trust but as brad lidge kind of um a similar type of thing except much better but always life on a lidge there i know the the feeling of that of just kind of stressing every time they go out there all right last one for you a name that was actually linked to the phillies that jurist familia of the new york mets another one that i just hate and i hate the guy he's just a not a not a great dude it seems

yeah and and every ninth and he's an experience with him like it's he's got nasty stuff yeah like so like some of the like some of the better stuff you'll see when he's really on. But so, so that's a, you'd take him, but wouldn't be excited about type of thing. No, no,

no, no. I mean, I'll take them, but I would not feel very happy about it. Okay. And then obviously there's some like non closers out there who could be on the market.

Michael Givens, Brad Brock, you know, the Mets guys, Gazellman, Swarczak, Klippard could probably be added, Craig Stammen, a lot of names out there, but it'll be interesting. I think Jack's right in the sense that if they do go out and get a bullpen piece immediately, especially a guy who could handle closing duties if asked to,

I think that would be a real boon for this team immediately. Really quickly, because you brought up the starting pitchers, I think the three names that we've seen the most attached to the Phillies, obviously the two in Hamels and Jay Happ, the two former Phillies, but also Michael Fulmer recently, a name that's been tossed around as well.

I know you're a Fulmer fan. How do you look at these three? Are you also a fan of the older move and getting a Hamels or a Happ as more of a rental? No to Hamels. I'm sorry, but no. I would very much enjoy Jay Happ. He's been really good for the last three years.

He helped me win me a fantasy baseball championship three years ago or maybe two years ago. So I will always be in debt to him. I just think he's a really solid pitcher that gives you a chance every single night, or once every five nights. And he's been pitching in the AL East

to a good ERA and a good fit for the last three years. I would be very much in on J.A. Happ. I like J like jahap a lot um the former it feels by lowish but he also hasn't been good in the calendar year like really good in the calendar year and i think the i think the price is gonna just gonna cost too much for how good he might actually be all right fritzy let's look ahead to the second half and obviously we will be all over the uh trade deadline stuff.

And Jack and I are always committed to emergency pods if necessary, if trades do go down and all that. But looking into the second half coming up, obviously a big series coming up after the weekend. The Padres in town and then those Los Angeles Dodgers. That is going to be something we're going to get to that in just one sec, Jack. But for those who don't know, and if you know Jack Fritz or follow his work or whatever, you probably do know, but Jack, quite the gambling aficionado.

The man who knows what he's talking about when it comes to this type of stuff. So I wanted to ask you, your boy Joe Giglio, Joey Sources tweeting out, Bovado now has the Phillies as 6-1 to win the NL and 15-1 to win the World Series. They are the third best odds in the National League, Jack, to win it after the Dodgers and the Cubs. Better odds in the Diamondbacks. Braves at 8-1 and Nationals at 9-1.

So better odds there. What is your read on this as a man who understands these things? I mean, I think Vegas knows that Philly will get a reaction. I feel like they've been bet on recently. But it still feels a little bit too high. I wouldn't bet it. I don't think that's good it. I agree with you. It's 6-1.

If they were 9-1, it would make a little bit more sense. Maybe Vegas knows that there's a possible big deal that could come down. I wouldn't be surprised if those odds dropped after the trade deadline. Just because right now I feel like Vegas is anticipating a move since they've been involved in pretty much every one. But yeah, no, I think that's a little too rich for my blood. And I don't think they're the third best team in the NFL. I know they're in first place in the East, but I don't know. There's teams that I just trust more.

Wow. Wow. Heresy. that I just trust more. Wow. Wow. Heresy. No, I'm kidding. Like, look, here's the thing. I think that they could be the third for me. I think I'd put the Dodgers and the Cubs one too. I think those are the right rankings based, like you said, on trust,

on teams that have done it before, on teams that are talented. And if those talented players start playing better then those teams are going to be really good so those two teams i would say are the top two i could see them as the third but i would i would have like them the diamondbacks the braves the brewers all with the exact same odds you know what i mean like i think they're or maybe fluctuating just a little bit i agree agree with you. They are not six to one over eight to one better than the Braves, the Brewers, whatever. You know what I mean? So I agree with you conceptually there, but I just don't, none of those teams jump out to me. I would you, would you make an

argument that, I mean, who of those teams do you think is, is a clear third? Uh, out of who the Diamondbacks, Phillies, Braies Braves Brewers Nationals I mean I think the I agree the Cubs and Dodgers are one to no question probably still Milwaukee three I still like the Brewers off but in terms of trust it's not like they've ever like

done it before yeah but they've had enough got they've enough guys have been in big moments like Kane and Alex and well Kane is Kane as yeah which hasn't really been Yeah, but they've had enough guys. They've had enough guys who've been in big moments like Kane and Yelich. Well, Kane has. Kane has. Yelich hasn't really been in many. Kane has.

Yeah, but he's been in a big league long enough. And also, I trust the pen going down the stretch, and their pen is disgusting. Disgusting in more ways than one, right? Yeah. Our boy Josh Hader. What a bummer. What a bummer what a bummer yeah yeah as as big josh hater guy yeah i have to i have to say i kind of hate josh hater now but anyway moving on yeah certainly that pen is is really good we'll see what happens with Hayden. The Diamondbacks,

I don't know. See, that's the point. Sure, you could quibble one way or the other, but you would admit I think as of right now, looking into the second half, those four teams, and five if you want to include the Nationals, are at least somewhat in the same range.

Yes. It can go either way. The Phillies can just put together a couple weeks of good offense. I would just feel so much better. But this is a team built on. Yeah. Well, once they get Mike, once they get Mike Moustakas in here,

he's going to be raking. Yeah. My man had some big hits in the world series run for the Royals. So, you know, you just talked about it. All right. Fritz. But like you know, you just talked about it. All right, Fritz, like I said, a big series coming up. We'll be back with you Sunday to preview that.

What it feels like, obviously, it's a huge series from a National League perspective as it's two first-place teams, at least at the moment, in the Dodgers and Phillies squaring off, but obviously the chase of it all, the Manny of it all. A lot to talk about.

We'll get into that on Sunday. Fritz and I will for you guys, but the Padres come into town, six game home in Santa Arrieta against Richard tonight, Velasquez against Perdomo tomorrow, and then Pavetta against Ross on Sunday. As I say that today and tonight, as most people, I'm assuming, listening to this on Sunday. As I say that today and tonight, as most people, I'm assuming, are listening to this on Friday. Jack, schedule after that really quickly

is Dodgers, Reds, Red Sox, Miami, Arizona Padres. So a couple tough ones in there, but some cupcakes in between as well. Jack, I want to get out of here on this question. What in your mind, and we'll take trades off the table

because that is an unknown for us. We don't know exactly what's going to be fortified, what they'll end up doing. But if you had to pick heading into the second half, what is your biggest second half storyline or thing to watch with this team that is going to make the difference for them one way or another? Or the biggest difference, I should say.

I think I'm going to go back to the starting staff uh like i said i don't know maybe a half hour ago none of these guys have pitched over 200 innings in a season they are anticipated to blow past the bat this year uh if they can like i'm i'm worried that they might tire out down the stretch just because they haven't done this before. But if they can persevere through that, I'd be really, really impressed. So I think the staff being... The problem with such an inconsistent and mostly bad offense

is that the starters have to be really good almost every single night. And it's not like we're talking about the 90s Braves here. We're talking about guys who you have Nola and Arrieta who's been up and down. You have Eflin who you think you're beginning to trust, but you can't 100% say that every night he goes out there he's going to pitch six or seven innings with eight Ks.

Velasquez, Pavetta, these kind of guys, you can't say with full confidence that they're going to make it through an entire season one healthy and and two pitching well they've been great so far but they they need to continue their level of of pitching in order for this team to to keep their lead in this race and strive down the street. Yeah, I think that can the starting pitchers keep it up is a 100% deal breaker for this team and how it plays out, no matter what happens at the trade deadline. And obviously the bullpen will be important.

And as we talked about how the Braves play, the Nationals play, the rest of the NL, there's a lot going on. But I think for me, I think the most interesting thing for me is going to be watching, in addition to starting pitching and if they can keep it up, I think for me, how this youthful, young team with a first-year manager is going to handle those big-time reps that we talked about because it looks like now the way they are sitting

and the way the schedule shakes out, and especially if it likely looks like they're going to add something to fortify the team at the deadline, they're going to play meaningful games in September. This team's going to be there. They've shown that night after night. And I think it's going to be really fun and interesting to see how this young team responds.

We've talked a ton about how resilient they are, about how they bounce back after tough games, after tough losses, after, you know, uh, when they're in a downturn, they, they always seem to bounce back. And we don't know after the long grind of a season, they will, they will show out in that way in September or not, but I think you have to feel good about the potential for it. And again, to your point before and what we talked about, I think either way it's huge for them moving forward to get those reps as such a young team, as a young manager.

I think it's going to be really, really fun to watch. Fritzy, any final thoughts before we get out of here? More of a final question. Are you worried about Carlos Santana? No. Okay. I don't know. Here's the thing.

He's still getting on base, which ultimately was all I've ever expected him to be. I think that we've talked about this a fair amount, and that's why the thought of getting Machado was exciting, because he'd have a real run producer in the middle of the lineup there. But Santana has been more of a one-or-two type of hitter than he has been a middle-of-the-lineup hitter, and yet he's in the middle of the lineup.

And I think that that's kind of a reason for it. But look, he's definitely not hitting the ball well. I mean, when the average is hovering near the Mendoza, it's hard to, you know, make a defense for the guy like before, as I do think, you know, he had a really nice May through June, but again, starting to really struggle again at the end of June, July. So I'm not worried about him in the sense that I still think he's going to be a contributor and give something to his team. But I think I've also just lowered my ultimate expectations for what his high-end outcome is going to be this season. Yeah. Yeah. And he did have a really good May and June. He's just, he struggled a lot and I understand he's getting on base. I understand all that.

It's great. And getting on base is important. Here's the problem, and here's why I think Carlos Santana gets so much backlash in this town. It's just because he's being miscast as a four-hole hitter. And just because he's in the four-hole, that's not his fault that he's in the four-hole. That's a product of the Philly system. His whole career, like you said, he's been a five- or two-hitter. Like, that's where he's probably at his best in a lineup. It's just that him being a four-hole, you expect the guy to drive in runs.

Hasn't been able to do it. And hopefully he can get going a little bit here. But, yeah, it feels like Carlos Santana is a bit of a lightning rod in this city. But, yeah, he needs to pick it up a little bit. Yeah, I agree with you. And especially if, you know, look, if they don't add a bat that's going to help. And, again, I think we both think they're going to do something. But they need something out of Santana.

I mean, look, this team will not make it far into October or even potentially to October if they're getting from Santana what they've been getting for the last three weeks or so or whatever it's been. So I'm with you, especially as a veteran guy. They need more from him. For sure. I agree. All right. My final thought is rate and review the podcast.

It makes Jack so happy. And, you know, you don't want a bitter, angry, upset Jack. You want a happy Jack. So rate and review. And that'll mean a lot to Jack and to all of us. And Fritzie and I, we will be back on Sunday. We will preview a Monster Dodgers series. It'll be fun to have the ballpark packed.

I know that people will get down there for Chase's last appearance in Philly and Machado and all that. So it's going to be a lot of fun. Jack and I'll talk about it on Sunday. So thank you for listening to the most recent podcast. We'll talk to you guys later. All-star closer, Kenley Jansen, we have a question. What's the best podcast of all time?

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