High Hopes: A Phillies Podcast - The High Hopes Phillies Podcast with Ben Harris

Episode Date: March 9, 2018

Ben Harris of The Athletic joins Jack Fritz to talk about early Spring Training takeaways, impressions of Kapler, Scott Kingery, the rotation and more!  See omnystudio.com/policies/listener for privacy information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Go back to school with Rogers and get Canada's fastest and most reliable internet. Perfect for streaming lectures all day or binging TV shows all night. Save up to $20 per month on Rogers Internet. Visit rogers.com for details. We got you, Rogers. Let's talk some baseball. Welcome to the High Hopes Podcast. I'm your host, Jack Fritz, for this episode.

And today, we are lucky enough to be joined by Ben Harris of theathletic.com, which I am a subscriber and a guy who reads it every single day. So, Ben, welcome to the podcast, and also thank you for all your work on The Athletic. I'm really enjoying it so far. Thanks so much, Jack. It's really a pleasure to be here. Yeah, it's great. I'm loving it.

We're glad to have spring training underway, and we're pumping out some really good content that we're really proud of. Thanks for reading yeah you know it's actually it's it's it's nice to have smart honest like analytic driven journalism rather than like hey here's this story with my eyes telling me and nothing to back it up but i i'm enjoying it i'm glad that i'm glad that we're finally moving out of the stone age into an actual you know honest conversation about baseball thank you yeah. We really get the freedom to do what interests us and what we think interests the fans. You get a little more freedom

with the medium when you can do the video and you can break down some video and some analytics. We've got plenty on both sides for those who aren't completely read up on the Sabre metrics and those who are. We're casting a wide net.

Yeah. So I want to take you back. The date was December 15th of 2016, and Freddie Galvis was traded. What was your reaction on that glorious day? My reaction was, I won't say excitement, but a need to not see a guy like Galvis in the two-hole hitting at the top of the lineup is something that signaled a push forward for this organization. With the hiring of Kapler is another thing that goes down in that same column as really a sea change

and a move in the right direction. And it shouldn't be overstated or understated how important Freddie Galvis was to this team, especially when they were playing bad. He was the guy who would not be afraid to rip off a couple expletives to the media and say, you know, this isn't us. This that to the media and say you know this isn't this is not this isn't how we should be playing it isn't ok we shouldn't normalize this and i was really important uh... a lot of the people

who come down hard on the favor metrics and analytic community will pay you know you there's no number four part you know you can't you can't quantify leadership in part and that that's. There's always a portion of the game that's going to be outside of the grasp of analysis. And that's okay. And it should be that way. But what he brought to the team in those transition years, especially

right towards the end of the rebuild, was incredibly important. But what happens when you have a successful rebuild up to this point, I'll say, where you've cultivated talent and you have talent across the diamond, is you're going to end up bumping some of those guys that carried you through that rebuild. And Freddie Galvis should be maybe revered as too strong of a word, but the Phillies fans and the Phillies organization should be that maybe revered it to strong of a word but he should it the philly band in the phillies organization

should be thankful and should not uh... underestimate the what he brought to this club that even if pete mccann was maybe using him in the wrong day way and cannot they're getting they're giving him a few more facts then then you should have gotten but he was an important part uh... of this organization to carry through those years. And for me, I could watch Freddie Galvis play defense all day.

That is what I will miss most. I will miss his slickness and his calmness on a ball going up the middle, but Crawford's right there, and he's not too far behind. Yeah, I mean, I hear you. He was important, sure, but if he was in the two-hole for another game, I was going to lose my mind. And every single day I wake up and I realize that the Phillies are a modern baseball team. And you've written a lot about this a there to teach the catching prospects or catchers how to frame a ball. They're trying to get every stone unturned for this baseball team.

They're finally a modern baseball team. I mean, they're finally there. They've moved on from the Stone Age. And I think getting rid of Freddie and moving on from Pete McKinnon, who I think was holding back this team, was some great moves. And now we're bringing the capillary. Do you have any early reactions or early thoughts on the capillary, how you think it's going, just any general spring takeaways?

So I have not been down to Clearwater yet. I'll be down there later in the spring. So I can mostly talk from experience of what my coworkers and colleagues have said from down there. It seems, and from what he said, obviously, it seems it's different, you know, from day one, having umpires behind the catchers and bullpens, having radar tracking these guys' pitches and bullpens, things like that, there are noticeable differences in workload, in managing players' workloads and their health. We are going to see things that we have not seen before.

As you said, this is very much taking them into the new age of baseball. And a lot of things will happen behind the scenes that maybe weren't necessarily things that happened in the Pete McCannon era and things that I think are part of the reason why Klintak wanted to speed up the rebuild in this fashion. And even though it added some expectations for how good they'll be, for how they'll be judged. I think it was the right move. And things like player meetings that we've heard Kapler talk about, they're going to be integrating the quantitative analysts in them. Those are all going to be things that are going to...

They're going to have to learn about their players, and they're going to have to learn how each individual uh... react to to criticism and react to suggestions and it's going to be interesting to me to see what these players take from things like those meetings and from the get-go capler has been about connecting with the players and things like using the umpires behind home plate in the radar if the player wasn't

comfortable with it and they didn't use it you know it's not a one-size-fits-all they didn't force everything on these players all at once it's a i think it's a little bit more new age idea of we have to cater to these players uh especially with the young team and not necessarily just tell them go out do your work come back in and then go home at the end of the day. Yeah, and we saw that with the alarm clock thing, where it was like, hey, just come in when you want. And Pat Neshek and I think it was Tommy Hunter, they just left practice one day because they got all their work done, and it was like, hey.

It seems like everything Kapler is instituting is common sense, and it's for the young ballplayer. I don't think it would have worked on the 2011 Phillies with a team of veterans that I don't think they would have taken as kindly to what Kapler is preaching. But here's the thing is that even old school minds like Charlie Manuel have raved about Gabe Kapler, and they think he's smart. They think he's

analyzing the team well. They like his ideas. And having a guy like Rob Thompson there, I think, is also super important. I think he's a super underrated part of the offseason because he ran Yankees training or spring training. So bringing in him to go along with Kapler, you know, they have an actual guy there that has run spring training before, so it's not Kapler by himself. They've brought in experienced guys all over the place. They're fostering an environment for a young team to thrive. And every single day, I am more and more impressed

with how this team's evolved. I think that diversity of thought and having a guy like Rob Thomas Thompson, uh, geez, Rob Thomas, uh, is, uh, is important. Are you thinking about Carlos Santana when he said that?

Yes. I got music on the brain. Clearly. Um, I think, uh, I think that diversity thought is important in, uh,

in all aspects of life. But if you're going to run a baseball team, you're going to try and connect with these young players. You need it. It's not, as I said, going to be one-size-fits-all. Maybe some of the hitters are going to gravitate more towards the hitting coach. He has a really interesting background himself, learning about the kinetics of hitting and the kinetic chain and body movement and motion.

And maybe some of them are going to gravitate more toward the intensity of Gabe Kapler, or maybe some of them are going to gravitate more toward the experience of a guy like Rick Kranitz. And they don't have a bunch of guys that are Gabe Kapler. They don't have Gabe Kapler, and then the pitching coach is the same, and the hitting coach is the same, and then the pitching coach is the same and the hitting coach is the same and the assistant hitting coach is the same. There's a range of

age and there's a range of diversity of thought and of background and of experience. You have Kapler who's got the front office and the player development experience. You've got the hitting coach who has experience with the Cubs and the Astros and the Marlins when they had young players.

Obviously two of those went on to win the World Series in the last two years. So I think that diversity of thought is important and is a very core analytic concept, and that is something that Matt Klintak wanted to bring in and get the ball rolling with as soon as he could. And do you think that, because I've kind of had this thought for a while, that everyone's making a little bit too big a deal out of both position players and the starting rotation, because if you've learned anything about the future of baseball

and where baseball is moving towards, modern baseball teams don't want their starters getting to a lineup the third time. So everyone's talking about how like, oh, who's going to be the fifth starter? I don't think the Phillies really care that much. Because I think they just want a guy that can get them five innings and then hand it over to the bullpen. And the bullpen on paper

looks like a formidable force. I agree with you 100% on the bullpen. And I think they built it around the idea that if they didn't go out and get a starter, they could mop up some extra innings that their starters may not be able to get through, either because they didn't want them to get through to face those

guys that third time, or because they were struggling to get through the to face those guys that third time or because they were struggling to get through the lineup even the second time and having that eighth man in the pen which it sounds like is what they're going to do uh should help there uh definitely they have some guys uh that who who may not crack the lineup who uh may not crack the 25 man excuse me who they could bring up guys like jake thompson maybe who could fill in in the pen for a couple of weeks if they need to give some breathers or if there's an injury who can mop up some, maybe slightly longer relief. But we saw with Kapler and we saw with the Dodgers last year that they,

I believe their pitchers face guys the third time through the order less than any other team. And usually the teams that are doing that are teams that have starters that are struggling, and they have one of the best rotations in the game. And this is definitely a new page. We've turned a page in the Phillies organization. This is a new way of thinking.

I don't think there will be a hard and fast rule that pitchers, even the back-end guys, can't face teams the third time. We know the trends. We know that hitters get better and better. More and more times they face a pitcher during the game, and it's not necessarily related to the pitcher tiring. So I think obviously Kapler is going to bring that notion with him here. I'm sure it's something that Klintak is all too familiar with.

It'll be interesting to see how they implement this with a staff that's not as deep as they maybe would like it to be. I don't think it'll be a hard and fast rule, but I think we could see some creative bullpen usage for sure. Yeah, for sure. Even the Dodgers, they were third or whatever in the rankings last year in batter innings, whatever. I forget what the stat was, but they were third.

And that was with a guy like Clayton Kershaw, who is a guy that finishes most games he starts. So that just kind of gives you a little inside scoop into what the Phillies are kind of thinking, I think, and not letting their starters face a lineup for the third time. I also feel the kind of same way about the outfield. There's always talk about Aaron Altair

or Nick Williams and which one's going to play a lot or Carlos Santana. How's this all going to work out? I kind of feel the same way about the outfield and position players as I do about the starters in the bullpen. The Dodgers, if you look at them, they always had just random guys playing and performing, and they would move guys all over the field

like Quique Hernandez, Chris Taylor, just random guys filling in. I think Aaron Altair and Nick Williams, they're going to get there at bats. I think Reece Hoskins is going to get starting time at first base. Carlos Santana is going to have some nights off. Do you get the same sense with the lineup as well? I think there should be some lineup flux. They have earned the ability to do that with the depth that they have now. Preseason depth charts always look perfect,

and we've seen some of these guys, we've seen Oduble go down, not consistently, but we've seen him go down a couple times with injury. We've seen Altair struggle with that. So I think there will be the ability for these guys to get at bats. I think injuries happen. We will see some guys go down. Altair has struggled with some of the soft tissue stuff, which isn't quite as encouraging. But I think there will be a bet to go around.

The question becomes, if the goal is to go out and trade one of those guys or even trade two of those guys maybe, are you giving them enough of a chance to increase their value and to put them on display? And I think they should get more or less a fair shake. But the amount of teams that have been able to spread around 350 or 400 plate appearances across four outfielders in the last couple decades is very small.

And a lot of those that have done it, it's been kind of fluky because they've traded someone midseason. So I think there will be playing time to go around. I think they will get creative in, I won't say platooning Altair and Williams, but in splitting the time between them and getting Herrera some rest, getting Hoskins a couple days rest here and there. When they rest Santana, you can put all those three guys now field in the pocket over the first date and keep in sharp over there

uh... i think the left side of the infield should stay uh... or everyone but first they should pay pretty consistent now if if we're halfway through the year and broncos struggling still and scott king agree is is banging on the door we could be if we could be them have to make an interesting decision about whether or not to bring Kingery up and throw him to third base. But that's putting the car before the horse.

I think they have the versatility. They have positional flexibility. And like you said, the Dodgers did this incredibly well last year with the versatility they had both in the outfield and the infield, and guys like Chris Taylor and Enrique Hernandez who could go out and fill a need whenever they needed, move around late in the innings, play some matchups. I think the Phillies should be in a position to do similar things this year.

What do you think is going to happen with Kingery? Because everyone's like, oh, freaking out. He should be in the opening day lineup. Obviously, that's not going to happen. And then the first day he can come up would be April 13th. Do you think they're going to bring him up right at that point? Do you think they're going to wait until June? Are they going to try to trade Cesar and wait even later to bring up Kingery?

Do you think they're going to bring up Kingery and play him maybe in center, maybe in second, maybe in short, or maybe at third? What do you think their plan is with Scott Kingery? It's an interesting question you mentioned that being able to bring him up on on april 13th and still save that uh still save that extra year of service time i think because of the way the the season has been stretched now uh this season you know there's not it's fading the obvious but there's not a place for him at the moment. And I'm not sure, you know, you need him to get every day at best.

When he went up to AAA, some of the power numbers stayed, but some of the plate discipline numbers weren't as encouraging. Struck out a little bit more. And there's going to be no, there's no harm in leaving him at AAA to begin the season. I think as incredibly entertaining and captivating of a player that he is, it might be a hard sell for some people, but he will 100% start the year in the minors. And I'm not sure there's a benefit of bringing him up until you actually have a spot. I don't think, you know, platooning him at third base, granted they're both right-handed, but moving him, flipping him around with Franco at third base and not giving either of them consistent at-bats really does you any good. It doesn't give Franco any chance to find a rhythm. It doesn't give Kingery a chance to find a rhythm when he starts his big league career.

So I think you have to keep him down until either Franco forces you to do otherwise or you find a trade partner for Cesar. And I think that they haven't traded Cesar yet shows that, granted, the market's been a little different this year, but shows that they do value how consistent he is. And Cesar Hernandez has been freakishly consistent, especially over his last two years. He is a roll out of bed and hit 290 with a 370 on base kind of guy, almost exactly. And they do value Cesar Hernandez, and they do value what he brings to this team, especially with his leadership.

He's one of the longer-tenured guys on the team now. And I don't think they're going to move on from him to move on from him And I don't think they're going to move on from him to move on from him because there will be a team, you know, maybe come the trade deadline that loses an infielder that needs a guy or a team, whether it's next offseason. You don't give up on a guy of that value just because you have another guy behind you. You don't just give him up for nothing. There's got to be

a reason behind it. I think they could very well find that reason. I'm sure they're still listening on him. They have such a depth and such a stud behind them coming up in Kingery that they would be crazy not to. For right now, I think

Kingery's going to get his hacks in AAA. He's going to be a leader down there. He's a fun guy to watch. The first time I went and saw him when he was called up to AAA last year, he made a diving kind of layout catch over the shoulder in center field. He's an electric player. We've seen him light up spring training now for the second year in a row.

There's not a spot for him right now on the 25 men, but I don't think that time will be too far off when there is. Yeah, and I feel like the Phillies are saying, I think Cesar Hernandez is one of the most underrated players in the entire sport. And I think they're trying to make sure that they're not getting ripped off in a Cesar Hernandez trade. Cesar Hernandez should be good enough to headline a deal, but if you're trading for Chris Archer and you're a Tampa Bay Rays fan,

it's like, we got Cesar Hernandez? I just think that they're waiting for a time when they get equal value for how good Cesar is and how cheap he is. I mean, Cesar Hernandez is on one of the best deals in the sport, and he's been freakishly consistent, like you said. I think they're waiting for proper value, and clearly they haven't gotten that yet. And, you know, with Kingery, just the other day,

he's placing Luis Severino, who we all hope that that's what Sixto turns out to be. And he works a 3-2 walk, which he struggled with at AAA, and hopefully that can bounce back up to where it was in AA. And then stole second base. The guy is just an electric player. And I'm sure you saw the Buster Only tweet yesterday, or two days ago, about comparing him to Dustin Pedroia.

And I honestly, I don't think that's too far off. I think Scott Kingery could be as good as Dustin Pedroia. I did see the tweet. be as good as dustin the joy uh... i i didn't get a tweet uh... up and put royale if you go a little removed from his from his peak obviously that's as what happens when you're on the wrong side of thirty but you thought phenomenal year last year uh... he didn't i think he was injured for some of it and didn't quite play a

whole season i think he uh it's a lot to put on a guy it is probably a hall of famer right yeah duffin pedroia i i would it's possible it's certainly possible i would have to dig through the numbers a little more to say anything definitively but he certainly you know he's been an mvp i believe he was a rookie of the year, got a couple rings. That's a good place to start, certainly, in terms of your Hall of Fame credentials.

He was also, he was phenomenally consistent, and, you know, as much as we want to see a guy like Kingery develop into a guy like that, I think before you look, you know, as much as we want to see a guy like Kingery develop into a guy like that, I think before you look, you know, five, six, seven years down the line at how good Pedroia was, you've got to realize that Kingery is a guy who's going to come up. He may struggle. That's okay. He's got phenomenal basketball skills. That's going to stay with him. And I think he could be an all--star a perennial all-star type player

whether he's going to end up being as good as pedroia or not there's plenty of time for that whether or not kingery is going to be an mvp candidate you know we'll see i wouldn't say i wouldn't be comfortable saying i expect him to be as good as dustinia. Come on. Dustin Pedroia is a stud. Come on. I don't know. It's easy to get wrapped up in the hype, and I've been guilty of it too. This city is very wrapped up in the incredible young talent across the board, and I think he'll be,

I think he's incredibly exciting. I think he'll be, I think he will really be an all-around star. I think the city is going to absolutely fall in love with him, and I think he could be I think he will really be an all-around star. I think the city is going to absolutely fall in love with him. And I think he could be a perennial all-star type player like Pedroia, but until we get a little more of that at the

big league, or any of it at the big league level, I'm not willing to say he'll be an MVP candidate. I mean, if I remember correctly, Pedroia won one in the first couple years. I mean, he must have been Yeah, I think it was like 2010. Yeah, so he must have been, I don't know, 24 or 25,

something along those lines, 23 maybe. That's high praise. You know, that's a lot. That's a lot to put on a guy. I'm not sure I'd be... I won't put that type of guarantee on him, but he could be...

He could 100% be in that kind of Ian Kindler type range where these smaller guys that can really put the bat on the ball. And that plays year in, year out. Kindler's a couple-time all-star for sure. I believe he won a gold glove maybe even. That's a good mold for a guy like Kingery. And he could be a Pedroia. He could be an MVP candidate.

It's a lot to put on him for me at this point. But I think I'm as excited about Scott Kingery as I am about any other prospect in this organization. I would say Sixto Sanchez included solely because of how much can go wrong with a starting pitching prospect, especially one as young as he is. I love Sixto. Well, hold on.

Before we move on, if Scott Kingery walks into Gabe Kapler's office and demands to wear the number 26, would you put him in the opening day lineup? I'm sure if you asked the city, you might as well, they'd say to build a statue of him right then and there. Everything that I've, when I've spoke to him and everything I've heard about him,

he seems like this guy, he's going to do whatever it takes to get on the field. When he was at Arizona, he lied to his coach and said he played some outfield in his high school days because they didn't have an infield spot open and said he played some outfield in his in his high school days because they didn't have an infield spot open and uh and they needed someone in outfield and he'd run around

and lay out in the outfield he is a guy that this city i i very much believe is going to love from the get-go and he may not uh he may not be as jacked as chase utley we may not get those gifts of him shirtless fielding balls before games, but in no time you're going to have people clamoring for his name in the lineup. Yeah, he's just a ball player. You watch him and you know we're in this analytic-driven game, but he is a throwback baseball player that also is really good analytics-wise.

If you look at everything he does on the field, batting, he is just an absolute gamer, and all the old head baseball fans are going to really appreciate Scott Kingery coming through the ranks. Are you buying at all what Franco is selling so far at the plate? We've seen some at-bats where he's still stepping out towards third base, and it drives me insane, but there is times when he's stepping straight towards the pitcher and it seems like one at-bat, he's doing that,

and then he goes back to his old ways. Are you buying at all what Franco's selling, or are you still like, well, it's spring training Franco, so I just assume he's really good and then won't bring it north? It's interesting. The idea of change is always going to be better is one that we've somewhat adopted in the

baseball lexicon. We know what swing changes have meant now, and they often go with these guys trying to hit more balls in the air trying to pull the ball more and there's this connotation that it's always going to be a positive but we saw last year he came into camp last year and said i didn't really have an approach in in 2016 and now i'm going to have an approach and we didn't see any of that manifest itself last year so uh i think you know his third hitting coach in three years for him, that's a lot. That's a lot of turnover.

That's a lot of inconsistency in the coaching staff. I think it'll be seeing what John Malley, I believe I'm pronouncing his name correctly, Malley or Malley, what he'll bring with his experience with guys like Altuve and Springer and Correa and Anthony Rizzo and Chris Bryan and Javi Baez. Maybe, you know, maybe it's third time's the charm. Maybe maybe he needed a new set of or a newer set of eyes on him. But I always hesitate to read too much into spring training. And you mentioned he sometimes looks like he's reverting back to the old stance.

They could be purposely giving, you know, maybe giving him the feel of how different it feels and getting that ingrained into his mind in some live reps and using that as a teaching moment. But I'm not sure that I'm guaranteeing a change is imminent and that any change to a stance or to an approach is going to immediately manifest itself because these guys are complicated. They're humans. They have to They, they have to adapt. They have to change. I'm sure he understands the pressure of the situation he's in. So, and we see him doing things like spraying the ball around the field and then

one at bat, we'll see some flails. I'm not ready. I'm certainly not ready to say he's out of it. He's out of the, the, the tank, but I think, I think you've got to say he's out of it, he's out of the tank, but I think you give him the year, maybe you give him the half year, depending on how bad it is, but you owe it to him to give him this. And that will be the story in the way that last year when Tommy Joseph was struggling and everyone was clamoring to bring up Hoskins, this will be that same scenario if we see Franco putting up the type of numbers that he did again.

And I think there will be a rightful... that crowd will be right to be doing so. Do you have any favorites for the back end of the rotation right now? I mean, it's obviously down to, what, Pavetta, Hutchinson, who the heck am I, who am I forgetting? Lively. Lively, yeah.

Who's pitched pretty well. Do you have any favorites out of that crew, anyone that you're gunning for hopefully getting a four or five spot? I think Pavetta you can – I expect Pavetta to be in the rotation. I think he has stuff that you can't teach. He throws a ball, a high-spin fastball that he throws, great velocity. He throws some great off-speed stuff,

and we've seen when it all comes together. He pitched on, I want to say it was Sunday, and struck out, I think,ory of the of the yankees and it was a a a harbinger of how good he could be yep and it was this you know hard fastball uh... biting curveball and fly there that

that if you put that all together and can command those he is going to be a dangerous picture uh... he approaches it curveball he we've been and added a lot more drop to it by the end of last year. It'll be interesting to see whether that carries over. As for the fifth spot, Hutchinson's an interesting guy, as is Ben Lively. Ben Lively's numbers last year were really solid,

and the word people always use to talk about him is a bulldog. He's intense. He's fiery. It's a nice word for a guy that throws 87. I guess that's what you can do for a guy like that. Yes, he doesn't strike anybody out, but he works the count. He works batters. He can hit his spots for the large part. I think he'll be an interesting guy.

And Zach Eflin's another guy. He's his mid-90s thinker with movement, and I'm talking movement. Pete McKinnon would call it a bowling ball last year, and I think that was a great analogy. It's going to be a matter of whether or not he can stay healthy. He went down last year. The story was his knees are clean for the first time. He's got healthy knees for the first time in his baseball career, essentially. And he had some shoulder issues.

It seemed like he was trying to learn how to work through his motion again and not have to try to compensate for the pain in his knees, and maybe he changed some things up that showed up in his shoulder. So he's another guy. My guess right now would be if they don't go out and get another starter, it's down to Lively and maybe Hutchinson. Water gun to my head, maybe Ben Lively. Feels like the way to go.

I think he's looked all right this spring. But that's where my head, maybe Ben Lively. Feels like the way to go. I think he's looked alright this spring. But that's where my head's at. And Lively's a guy who we talked about earlier. I think he'll be able to get you those five innings that we look for. I think once he faces a lineup for the third time, the averages against him just skyrocket.

But the first two times through a lineup, he's actually okay because he has the deceptive fastball. I was reading an Eno Saris article, I think, last year on Fangraphs about Ben Lively. He's one of the pitchers that gets his elbow out in front of his arm so it looks like a slingshot

when it comes out. So even though it's 88, it really looks like 92-93 and it takes a couple of times through a lineup to adjust to that. So Lively, for me, is a guy that can get me five innings and hopefully turn it over to that bullpen. On paper, the Phillies' bullpen is looking to be a force. And you wrote about Adam Morgan the other day.

How confused are you by Adam Morgan actually being good now? So it was a really interesting progression to see Adam Morgan last year from when we spoke with him after he was sent down in April, about a week and a half into the season. He looked not distraught, but he looked like he had some thinking that he needed to do. And he spoke with Jim Salisbury about how, you know, you have three days when you get sent down to report to minor league camp.

And he told the Phillies he was going to need all three days to decide and decided not to quit midway through the season and that if he was going to make any significant change like that, he was going to do it at the end of the year. And some helpful tweaks from Rick Cranitz and Bob McClure and a new slider grip just unlocked an entirely different Adam Morgan. We've seen lots of pitchers go from the rotation to the bullpen, whether it's because of injury or because they don't have the depth of their arsenal to last, as you were saying, two or three times through the order.

And Morgan lost his slider at the beginning of the year it was not moving at all it was flat it was inviting it was it was not diving it wasn't cutting and uh... he went down to the miners changes grip up uh... uh... started throwing with a different grip and the the big change that one of the big changes in addition to the grip that i focused on that piece was the phillips coaching staff uh uh approached him about moving to the

third base side of the rubber instead of the first base side and when he was on the first base side all of his pitches especially that slider were starting at the left handers and the left handers could sit on it and say all right either this is going to hit me or it's going to fall right into the strike zone and I'm going to take a hack at it. And that works for some people, but it wasn't what fit Morgan's repertoire best. And he moved to that third base side, and all of a sudden his fliers are starting right down the middle and now they're cutting off the plate. And lefties were, they silenced lefties. Lefties were, I think, four for, I'm trying to remember the number, four for 37

over the last couple months against Morgan Slider. All four hits were singles with 20-something strikeouts. I mean, he became a pitcher that you can go count on to put lefties, to send lefties back to the dugout. And it was night and day. And the velocity absolutely plays up and the slider plays up with, you know, he's throwing 95 miles an hour now. That was not the Adam Morgan that we knew when he came back from the shoulder surgery.

It's not my Adam Morgan. He's 14. Yeah, he, that's, it's a different picture. And he's an exciting guy to have in the bullpen right now. If he can carry this over it's uh it's gonna be i think he's gonna be a really devastating left-handed weapon for them yeah i agree and i don't know i don't want to completely rule out peds but the fact that he was throwing 91 and then jumped to 97 he goes on to the minors and all of a sudden

he's back up here i'm so confused by adam morgan but i'm so glad he's here because they needed a good lefty out of the bullpen. I know you wrote about Hobie Milner, and he had one of the biggest, what, FIP and ERA differentials in the entire sport last year? Yeah, so my colleague Megan Montemero actually wrote that piece. But, yeah, so he essentially couldn't handle right-handed hitters, period. His splits were really tough, and he was good against lefties, but the righties were where he really struggled. And that puts limitations on how much you can use a guy

if you're trying to avoid all manner of right-handed hitters. But, yeah, so the gap between his ERA and his FIP, which if your FIP is much higher, it's a potential pointer towards maybe you were getting some batted ball luck or things like that. He had the second biggest in the game last year, if you're looking at guys who threw 30 innings. And it was a huge margin. And what Megan wrote in her piece was that he has a new curveball grip,

again, new breaking ball grip, just like Morgan. And it's sharper, it bites a little bit more, cocks his wrist a little bit more. And it's something that he feels can go hand in hand with how he faces right-handers and give him another weapon there instead of just kind of a show-me breaking ball. So that's another guy. That's a Rule 5 guy. That's a scrap heap kind of guy where you can find some value

in him without having to give anything up. Agreed. Final thing before I let you get out of here. Let's talk about Aaron Nola. Because it seems like when he was coming out, right, he had three quality pitches.

But even throughout some of the time he's been in the big leagues, the changeup hasn't been that great. But as we saw a couple days ago with the five strikeout, the changeup looks like it's completely back, and it's just going to unlock another level to Aaron Nola. Do you think Aaron Nola is going to take another step forward in 2018? Boy, it's hard to figure out where that step would be. I mean, the curveball got so much better last year.

The command stayed phenomenal. That changeup was great. I wrote a lot about him this offseason. He used that changeup behind in the count to guys. So all of a sudden, even when you're in a hole, you've got this thing that looks like a fastball, and then it drops off the table. That's a dangerous weapon, and I think one of the...

He had a couple of really impressive games last year. He had about two and a half months in a row of them, but a couple of games that stuck out in my mind were a game against the Brewers where he kept guys, right-handers and left-handers, off balance with his changeup, and then a game against the brewers where he kept guys right handers and left handers off balance with his change up and then a game against the mets where i believe it was in that in that streak of of yo and the cesspit is just tearing the phillies apart and nola was throwing fastballs up in his kitchen and pushing him off the plate and then, and then working him outside.

And that to me, as much as is encouraging to see the change up, develop the curve ball, develop to see him be willing to go inside on a guy who's been crushing his team and go kind of go up there with no fear. We asked him after the game, if remembered seeing Cespedes stare back at him after that pitch, and he essentially said, yeah. And that was it. You know, he didn't care.

It didn't faze him. He doesn't put out – his exterior is not one of a tough guy, of an extremely macho guy. He's a quiet guy. He goes about his business. He's a soft talker. He's a quiet guy. He goes about his business. He's a soft talker. He's a soft talker but a hard thrower. He throws fastball with movement that is built for Twitter.

I mean, the gifs that we'll see popping up of him throughout the season and that movement on that two-seamer and that movement on that curveball are just phenomenal. It's hard to know where that next step would be. He's already up near the top of the league in terms of striking guys out. He minimizes the walks. All you can ask for is him to keep this level of success and keep it consistent. And as he gets older, he'll learn more.

He's still incredibly young. He'll learn more. He'll accrue more service time. He'll get to pick the brains of some veterans. And soon enough, he'll be that veteran that guys are leaning on for advice and for suggestions. And I think he has a chance to be

again, very, very solid for the Phillies this year and bordering on that ace potential, you know, depending on how you quantify that. And for me, I think the discussion is more or less pointless. He's the best pitcher on the team, no question. He's one of the handful of 10 or 15, 20 best pitchers

and 15 best pitchers in baseball. And no label will take away just how, will diminish from how good he is. Yeah, and to his growth, he's already great at it now, but just continuing to learn how to pitch backwards. You mentioned the changeup and a 2-1 count. That is so important. That is a hitter's count.

That is a hitter sitting dead red waiting for that fastball, and he just drops in a changeup, and they roll over. For a former pitcher, watching Aaron Nola is a treat. The guy is going to be tremendous this year. And hopefully, I think he's still underrated.

I think he's still underrated here, just how good he is. I think he's underrated nationally. Hopefully this year we see some of that national buzz pop up. We get an all-star appearance. And really, I don't think it's out of the question for him to be in the Cy Young conversation come September. I don't think it's not a question for him to be in the Cy Young conversation come September. I don't think it's that much of a stretch either. As you said, it is artwork to watch Aaron Nolapich. It is truly a pleasure.

And with the health scares seemingly behind him from 2016, he's made some tweaks, made some adjustments. He's staying over the rubber a little bit longer. And maybe he inches up towards that 200-inning mark. You know, 200 innings isn't what it used to be. It's not something you have to have to be a quote-unquote ace-slash-successful pitcher. And we'll see how they handle guys the third time through the order this year.

But I think it would not be a stretch if we see him carry over what he learned from last year and improve in any one facet of his game that he could be mentioned in that Cy Young discussion this year and in the years coming. I agree. Hold on, last thing.

This is the last thing. Any chance Santana leads off at all this year? I know you wrote about that with your Franco piece. Just what Santana can teach Franco. And I thought it was really interesting the 0 swing percentage. And he's been

one of the most consistent hitters in baseball in getting a count to 1-0 rather than 0-1. That's important for a leadoff hitter. And he's got the pop, which is important for a leadoff hitter as well. Can you see any leadoff Santana, or do you think it's going to be Cesar and then Santana pretty much locked in that two-hole? I think it's going to be Cesar.

I really think you—I think while you could put Santana in that leadoff spot, where does Cesar go? You know, if you say you want to hit Cesar too, yeah, but it's important to have some pop in the two hole as well, that combination of how many at-bats versus getting up to the plate with guys on base. So while you could put Santana in the one hole, I think, you know, I think it would maybe be overthinking it a little bit to put him there.

As long as you've got Cesar there, I think he goes in that one hole. I think, you know, I think it would maybe be overthinking it a little bit to put him there. As long as you've got Cesar there, I think he goes in that one hole. I think, uh, I'm interested to see whether Santana hits two or four. I think there's a good argument both ways. I think maybe early in the season, he hits up in the two hole. Um, but I could also see Hopkins up in the two hole. That's the guy who's going to set the table just like Santana, and it feels like Herrera is probably the likeliest bet for a three-hole guy. While he doesn't have extraordinary home run power, he's got great extra base power. He's going to come up with two guys great on base in front of him

and have one guy, either Santana or Hoskins, behind him in scoring position a lot of the time. We saw him go on that stretch of hitting doubles last year. So it'll be interesting to me to see whether or not Santana or Hoskins ends up in that two hole. My guess right now would be that they, I guess, put Santana there to begin the season and let Hoskins sit in that four hole and then keep the power guys, the more power guys,

Williams and some Altair behind him and Alfaro. And then keep Crawford down there in the eighth spot. I don't think there's any reason to move him up. Let him take a little bit of pressure off him. Guys won't game plan quite nearly as intensely against him. And, you know, let him get his bearings. So that would be my guess for a starting lineup. Santana in the two, Hoskins in the four.

Yeah, that's what I would do as well. And for as much as, I can't believe we went the whole podcast without even mentioning Reese Hoskins, for as much of a master at his craft as Aaron Noel is Reese Hoskins is the, is the exact same way at the plate. I mean, just the other day he works a count to three, two,

and then pops a Homer. The guy we're just, it's, it's just a treat that this lineup on a night in night out basis is going to give us something to watch. We're not bad at, we're not seeing like camera up in the eight spot or Peter Borges, like one through eight.

They have a really fun, modern-day lineup that it's going to give us something to watch on a night-in, night-out basis. Just thank God we're there, because it was a long time since 2011, but we're finally back. It was. You mentioned the two-strike homer. I know both his homers, Hoskins' two-strike homers, sorry, both his homers this spring have been two-strike homers.

I looked it up last year. Only one player in baseball hit more ofrike homers. Sorry, both his homers this spring have been two-strike homers. I looked it up last year. Only one player in baseball hit more of their homers, a higher percentage of their homers with two strikes. He is really impressive. I dug into a number of at-bats that he had earlier this offseason and broke them down pitch by pitch. He is playing beyond his age. Not that the homers can be something to expect in the way that he hit them last year,

but he controls the strike zone and dictates and gets better as he gets deeper into count. He learns more. He's cerebral. He thinks about his approach. He learns as the count gets deeper. He takes things into account, and he should be very fun to watch this year. Agreed. Ben Harris, thank you for coming on the High Hopes podcast. Read him on theathletic.com. Ben, thanks for coming on.

Thanks so much, Jack. I appreciate it. All-star closer, Kenley Jansen. We have a question. What's the best podcast of all time? Baseball isn't boring, baby. I'm Rob Bradford, and every single day I'm sitting down with the biggest names to show you this great game is the greatest game.

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