Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - A Broken White House, With Karine Jean-Pierre. Plus, the End of SNAP?

Episode Date: November 4, 2025

Jomi Adeniran joins Rachel and Van to react to the Dodgers winning a classic World Series before discussing the Trump administration’s efforts to cut the funding for SNAP. Then, Karine Jean-Pierre, the White House press secretary for the Biden administration, joins to talk about her new book, ‘Independent: A Look Inside a Broken White House, Outside the Party Lines’; the response to her book tour; and the reasons behind her exit from the Democratic Party. 00:00 Dodgers' World Series win (18:20) Efforts to end SNAP (1:01:06) Ignoring the blackface costumes (1:08:39) Karine Jean-Pierre joins the show (1:12:46) A look into the book (1:22:11) A broken White House (1:38:17) Where should the party go? (2:13:38) Graham Platner’s campaign Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guests: Oluwajomiloju Adeniran and Karine Jean-Pierre Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Ashleigh Smith Video Supervision: Chris Thomas Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, yo, thought, warriors. What is up? Higher Learning is on. It is I, Van Lathan, Jr. It is me, Rachel and Lindsay. We got Jomey a dinner on here with us. One of the number one Dodgers fans in the world because we are the champion.

The Dodgers won the World Series. Jomey. He left out. You guys are decking your Dodgers stuff. Yeah, we wanted to bring on a real Dodgers fan to have the conversation at the top of the show. The rest of the show will probably be depressing, but we start in joy.

Jomey, the Dodgers have won the World Series, a quick sports check. Tell people about the Dodgers' road to the World Series and what the whole series was like for you. I mean, we can just, honestly don't have any words. Like, when the final out was, was, was, was, was happened. I fell to my knees. Like, I really still can't even get the words out.

From the beginning of the year, I fell to my knees in my house. I love this for you. No, how could you not be? romantic about baseball. You really got to think at the beginning of the year, everybody's talking about how the Dodgers they're for sure going to repeat. It's a lot.

Look at these guys. Look who they signed in the offseason. And those guys didn't even play for a Tanner Scott. Terrible. Kirby Yates was not good. Black and Corfordo was the worst player in baseball by far, right? And they were legitimately had stretches of terrible baseball.

They lost 9 of 11 a couple times, lost six in a row. if I could clock rugby went 0 a 6 against the brewers in the regular season. Tough. I was at a USC game when Yoshid Nohu Yamamoto, who we will talk about later, had a, what's it called? A complete game. No, no, no.

A no hitter. No hitter. Through 8 and 2 thirds. And the Dodgers lost. Because the bullpen gave it up. Let me repeat that. He had a no hitter through 8 and 2. thirds and the Dodgers lost.

And I'm looking at my brother. I'm like, listen, it was a great run. You know, we'll go outside in the NLDS, but hey, man, we still, we'll always have 2024, right? They enter the postseason as a three seed, which means they got to play the wild card, right? Sweep the Reds, but it's the Reds, you know, for real. Then they got to go on take out on big bad Philly on the road in Philadelphia, the two seed.

Go get two on the road. Yeah, blow it out in game three and then win a miraculous game in game four where the pitcher throws the ball to the backstop where you're not supposed to go, Hayeson Kim scores, we're going to play the Brewers, which again, they did not beat

they're on the road every series. They go to the ALCS to play the number one seat in all of baseball, all of baseball, and they sweep them. Yeah, that's what I thought was going to be their best. That's when I tapped it. thought that was going to be the matchup.

But Rachel, I'm sitting in my crib. We beat the Phillies. I always thought it was going to be Artubis matchup. Okay. Not the Brewers. Not the Brewers. I was not worried about them dudes. And look, I was vindicated.

So I'd go into the World Series. We were talking about Corwick earlier. I was talking cash. Yeah, you were. I was talking insane cash. You feel like they were unbeatable at this point. A lot of people were. You were not alone.

I was saying Dodgers and five, man. Y'all don't want to see us, bro. I was, I was on cloud nine. Only for me, what, not even a week later, we had the crib, down three, two, going, it's over. It's over. It's over. Just let you guys know, okay.

So if you guys didn't watch the game, we, we did an interview here with Roy Wood, Jr. We sent Luis to the World Series. Howe Learning sent Luis to the World Series. It's amazing, by the way. We sent Luis to the World Series. When Roy Wood Jr. was here, he said, actually bought tickets for the wrong game. I meant to buy tickets for game five. I bought tickets from game four. The reason why we were going to buy tickets for game five is because we thought that

that was going to be the game that the dog is clinched the world series. World Wood said, you should buy tickets for game five because the Dodgers win all of the games, right? Because the Dodgers had already won game three. It was going to be over. Yeah. And it was not over. No. The Blue Jays played. They won game five. They won game four. They are up three to prime. Going home. Two to win one. Two to win one.

And the cucking began. And I'm sorry to the Blue Jays fans that are listening to this. It is your team cucked out. And that's just a fucking fact. That's the truth. That's the truth. I want to play something for you guys real quick. Donnie, do you have that video I put in the chat?

Biggest moment of my life as a Blue Jays fan. This is in the top of the night. That ball is hit out. Oh, my God. No, no. That's a home run by Miguel Rojas. That's a home run by Miguel Rojas. That is a home run by the number nine hitter Miguel Rojas.

You know what's crazy? It's crony. That's a Toronto Blue Jays fan. Yeah. I'm a Dodgers fan. I had the same exact reaction. Donnie, keep playing it. No.

No. No. No. No. Well, here comes a rage. Let's do the rage. The rage is coming. Oh, did I cut it off?

Jeff Hoffman hangs a slider to the number nine hitter, Miguel Rojas, and we have a tie ball game. This was our biggest fear with Jeff Hoffman. They could not be trusted. Yo, I got to say this, man. This was really Just so many things that happened in the game Yeah So many times that you thought the Dodgers were out of the game, right?

Incredible. They had, I mean, they go down four to two Max Monty hits a solo, obviously, Miguel Rojas And then bottom nine, bases loaded, tied game, it's one out, guys, it's over. The Dodgers are supposed to lose that game. You get the force out of home,

which by the way, Will Smith is like barely on my bag. Game of inches. He's got a pinky toe. E! Kits back on the bag just in time. Right? Then the catch is center. First of all,

I want tears. I might cry. Don't play with me, Rachel. I'm looking at Kiki. I'm like, Kiki's not getting that ball. There's no way. Just like a basket catch. The outfield was in because in that situation,

if the runner tags at third and the runner scores, the game is over. No, there was two out. Well, no, I mean, but they were still How many people were on the bases? It was still basis loaded because Hernandez was still playing in. He was playing in. Which, to be honest with you, I don't know why,

to be honest with you, why was he playing in at that point there were two outs? He should have just been playing. He should have been playing deep at a normal depth. But he, I think it's like, it was also like in the gap because that's why, um, pause, which by the way, and we'll talk about this later. And the gap doesn't fucking matter.

The guy's this guy on third. If the ball gets down, it's over. Right. That's the point. He should be running on any. it's two outs, he should be running on contact. Yeah. Don't disagree.

Kike's, like, he's going to, if he's going to make us a back shirt or catch, which if he makes it is great, but like likelihood of doing that is impossible. Pahas has to come, who by the way, got subbed in, I think maybe like a couple of plays earlier

by Dave Roberts, who we will talk about glowingly, I'm sure later. Pahaz has to come farther than Kike, and then has to moss him to make the catch and you're sitting there like, there's no way we're going to extras right now.

Kike's on the floor because he thinks, oh, we lost. Like the season's over. Turns out, he's like, yo, Ponce's like, yo, I got it. Let's go. He gets up, we're all happy, and we're going to extras,

unbelievably. And so when I watched, when I finally looked at it, I thought he was hurt, but no, he was down because he thought they had given up the World Series. Pahas catches the ball. And then you get,

also for that same feed, we're not going to play it again because we're going to leave the Toronto fans alone, but I'll tell us to Toronto, to Toronto fan something real quick. Y'all were talking cash money shit. All right. And y'all were making it about stuff

and y'all were talking cash money shit. Go ahead and get some of that now. I feel really bad for the Blue Jays fans. I have to be honest with you. I feel really bad, though. Because as a sports fan, as a sports fan. It's a tough loss. But this is how I know you don't really be on your shit like that.

For baseball? Oh, for sure now. As a sports fan, just having been here before, having been here before in a game where you really feel like you have everything in front of you to win, maybe you even feel like you have the better team. And this type of gut-wrenching loss, I do feel for them. No, it's not me not being on my shit.

I'm just a competitor. I actually don't feel anything for them. And I don't even watch the game. You're a competitor. You're a competitor. I'm a competitor. I'm a competitor. So it's part of the game.

But you've never felt bad as a competitor. You've never felt bad for the team. If you see them crying, they fucking mama crying and all this shit. Not once. Wow. That I can remember that I feel bad for the team that lost. As an outsider, right, who doesn't have an allegiance to any team, I thought it was so fun. I know it was for you.

It's like, are we going to get it? Are we not? But seven games, extra innings. In retrospect? For you to win? Yes. to win on that, yes, in retrospective, but to watch, just to watch it, that's the kind of world, I'm not into baseball.

That is the kind of world series that I want to say. Van knows this, but I'm not fun person to watch high leverage sports with. No, no, no, no. I am not a fun person. He, I'm definitely not. At least you know that about yourself. I won't even watch. Like, if it gets too much anxiety, I'll change the station.

Remember? Yeah, yeah, I watch a whole LSU, Clemson's a game turned away from it. Just couldn't watch it. Yeah. And Jomey's like, Jomey is different. Jomey will watch and be the most nervous, annoying. Like, Jomey, sit the fuck down. I'm more like that.

Like, Jomey, fucking relax. If it's LSU, I almost have to spare myself at points. I can't watch. Remember the Laker game? Game 6 against the Warriors? Oh, this is bad. We went to the game. You went to the game?

We were at the game. We went to the game. We're in the suite. Everybody is chilling. We having fun. It's a different situation When you're in the suite There's a lot

Y'all know When you're in the suite And you're watching the game You are watching the game But there's also a lot of socializing No yeah you're not Most people are not watching the game in the suite Right

The game is on And there's a lot of socializing You're talking, it's food There's a lot of stuff Everybody is having a fun time Jomi is in the first row of the suite Locked in

the entire time everybody else is having fun like Jomey, you want to meet people, none of this stuff. Important context. This is Game 6, 23, Lakers Warriors. You told me this in like the first quarter. The Warriors don't have it. It's all Lakers. And the Lakers were up like what, 10 for like the entirety of the second half.

And I'm sitting in the chair. I'm not smiling. I'm not laughing. I'm locked in. He had no fun. It was almost to a point to where he was like, Hey, man, I don't know if Jomey's the right nigga to bring to the game anymore than this week.

Because it's like he had zero fun. And I get it. But he had zero fun. I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, Jomey. You were embarrassed? It's like, no, no, no, no, no, not embarrassed. But it was like, it just, the nigger was kind of scaring the hose a little bit. And by the way, we weren't on that.

Kalika's there. So like, we're not, we're not on. It's not that type of situation. I mean, scaring the hose in the hose being a fun. time in the crypto. We, they up some points and it's like, they're not like, two or three minutes

left. The locker's going to win this game. I'm like, Joe, no, this fucking basketball game is over. Okay. The game is over. He's like, it's not over. There's a lot of game left. There's a lot of game left. I'm like, Jomi. Have a hamburger. The game is over. To bring it. The dessert card is here. Yeah. I don't want any dessert. Bring you back

to the Dodgers. My homie called me on Saturday. He texted. I didn't respond to text. I was locked in. Locked it on Saturday. I went to the gym. Got a great workout in, right? Got some Japanese food because I was like, shout out my homies. We're going to support.

Let's get this dub today. You know what I mean? My homie calls me. He's like, yo, I texted you, man. I want to come over, watch the game. Where are you going to be at? It's like, I'm at the crib. It's like, let me come through.

And I said, Yo, Shatown, man, was my boy Shatheaton. Shout out. Last time you came over was last year, the World Series game four. Dodgers went to clinch. They lost.

Stay home. Can't come over. Stay home, man. I'm watching my crib. You're watching the yo crib. It's good. Did you know that? And we're going to see, we go see what happens.

But last time we came over the loss, we not really go to fate like that. Have you been to the World Series? No, no, I can't. Again, I can't. That's not really my speed. I like to be at the crib because, again, sometimes they do be stinking it.

I remember in 2010 when the Lakers played the Celtics, that game seven, they were down like 13 in the third quarter. And I was like, cool. I'm going to watch, man. versus food. That's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna put that on.

Travel Channel. 242, if I recall correctly, I got it. That's for y'all. I will not be there. I just don't have it in. And then they, that was in the third quarter.

That was in the third quarter. The Lakers came back and then you put the game back on. You would hate me being there. I'm an experienced person. I love the experience. Did I tell you, I was at game one of the World Series last year?

And I left, I hate, this is the first time I'm going to say this publicly. I left. because I was trying to beat the traffic when Freddie Freeman hit the home run. So I heard it in the lot. Why do you say things like this? Why would you say that?

Because I heard it in the lot. Because we have this conversation about your sports fandom. I would have not, how was I supposed to know? Rachel. That that was gonna happen. Rachel, why do you say stuff like that? Why do you do stuff like that? Because this is what happened.

It's the truth. Rachel, no. You just keep telling yourself over and over and over again. I am not a baseball for. fan. I'm never going to pretend like I am. The game is too long for me. If it was cut in half, it doesn't help. The game is too long for me. It's just not my thing. I like going to games. I love a baseball experience. I think it's so, I love the vibe. I love the vibe. I love the vibe. I love a beer. I love a dog. I love the seventh inning stretch. I love to sing take me out to the ball. I love the

baseball game. You like a baseball game. But I'm just, I'm never going to be at home watching it's a game. You love the World Series early. You don't leave the World Series. One Mr. Bill Simmons stayed at a game that was 18 innings long. I saw him. Bill was almost on the fucking field. Bill could have filled the ball. See, that's the type of shit. See, Bill is always doing that, by the way.

Bill, like, Bill goes to a game, and he knows what people are. And then it's like, when I saw them pictures of him basically being on the field, and I was like, they're about to get on Bill. That's different. Yeah, they're about to get on Bill as, man. You know, as we just talked about going to a suite to see the game. Ah, yeah. But here's the thing.

And I want to address this. I want to make sure that, like, we are all here together. Give them a final. Give me something in final. Give them a parting shot, gentlemen. People are going to sit here and tell you that the Dodgers will in baseball. Wow. That's not true.

Why would they say that? Well, because the Dodgers have the highest payroll. Okay, got you. In baseball. In baseball. Nobody wants to talk about. about that the Toronto Blue Jays have the fifth highest payroll in baseball. The Mets had the second high payroll in baseball.

Didn't make the postseason. You know, it's not all about the money. Sometimes we just make the plays. Sometimes we just got the dogs. Last year, it was our bullpen that made all the difference. This year, it was the starting pitching. Right now, you're going to sit there and say, oh, well, the Dodgers had Shoah go on Saturday.

They had Yosch, the MVP, just... And I'll tell you this right now. He was better than Madison Bobgarner in 2014. I'm putting it on my life right now. On wax, right? Tyler Glass now and Blake's Nell go all on Saturday. That's like one point something billion dollars in pitching going on the mound on Saturday. I don't care.

I don't care. Just because y'all broke, y'all only got no bag. Y'all don't want to spend no money. And this economy, Joe? And you want to be mad at me? No, no, no, no, no, we're not doing that. In this economy? Man, we're not doing that.

Wow. All these billionaires can't afford to keep their players, and it's my fault that my team wants to win. Y'all made fun of us in 2017 and 2018 for choking. We got it in 2020. Y'all said it was fake. Now we're up. We heard the noise.

And we said, all right, we're coming for y'all. Now what's the problem that we're stacking this bread and getting these chips? No, no, no, no, no. It was cash before. Talk your shit. Chill out. Let us get ours.

That's what I'm talking about. Hey, y'all got fat while we starved in the streets. Oh! Now it's our turn. Joe me! Come on now. You guys, we're going to take a break. You're going to come back and get into some of the other stuff.

Go Dodgers. Parades today in L.A. Go Dodgers! Go Dodgers! Vittles! The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner.

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Tap this ad to learn more about trimfaya, including important safety information. Now let's jump into politics. Now that the joy is done, let's get back to the real world. Donnie? Yeah. The Trump administration today was the deadline that they were facing to update a federal judge who had ruled last week that the Agriculture Department must disperse snap benefits. The deadline comes as more than 40 million Americans continue to go without their benefits.

And as of an hour ago, the deadline passed. There's been an update. Trump administration says today that they will partially fund SNAP benefits. They said that it will provide details to the states at some point today, calculating exactly the per household partial benefit. The process of loading the SNAP cards is going to take steps by state and federal government agencies and vendors. It could take up to two weeks in some states, but the USDA has warned in a court filing that it could take weeks or possibly even months per se to make all the system changes to send out those reduced benefits. So things are in flux. So wait, Donnie, just to be clear, because this is, I guess, breaking news for us.

They just as we're recording this on Monday at 10.45 a.m. Pacific time, they just decided an hour ago that they are going to follow what the courts have said. partially. Okay, so they didn't file a response, but it's a partial funding, and it might be weeks or months before they even get it. So they're not even going to get their full benefits.

It'll be partial. Okay. Let's get into a little general education about SNAP. Go for it. All right. First of all, I would like to thank Derey McKelson and all the people

over at Campaign Zero for giving us some education on SNAP. but I don't think sometimes people understand just what? No, yeah, keep going, no, you're right. That people understand what a wide-ranging program, SNAP is, and how efficient of a program

that it actually is. Even politicians don't understand it. I don't think they know. And I think sometimes miseducation on SNAP is indicative of a larger sort of a blind eye that gets turned on the actual working poor of America. And not necessarily the working poor

all the time are people on SNAP. There's a huge percentage of people in the country that at some point are going to be on SNAP or use SNAP benefits. It's a large percentage of people. I mean, the way things are headed, that's absolutely going to be the case. No, no, no, no, no. That's already true now. No, no, I know it's true now, but as we continue,

I think people don't realize they are closer to SNAP. more than they think. No. There's, yeah. Yeah, it's right there. It's like, yeah. You think you're one of them, but really you're, you're not. Okay, Snap is the second largest anti-poverty program for the non-elderly in the U.S.

Generally, anyone at or below 130% of the federal poverty level is eligible for SNAP. Approximately, 42 million Americans, one in 10 people rely on SNAP benefits, an annual cost of around 113 billion. billion dollars. This is another key point that I'm going to read off for you guys at the end here. Before I even get into it, I would, I'm going to ask questions. Donnie, you probably looked at the document. What do you think, or how much do you think the average SNAP recipient gets per month for food? It's under $200. I know that.

It's $157 bucks per month, the average SNAP recipient. That's $1.74 per mill. So why is that important? Because there is a group of people and a political thinking out there that paints the picture

of large swaths of people who are going to the casino using EBT cards. Buying Ferraris. They're going to see the game. They're hanging out. They're slaying EBT cards on the side that they're abusing Snap, number one.

And then there's another picture that's painted of people who are completely funding their entire lives on Snap using EBT cards. That's something that you really need to specify as well. there's all within that same group of people that you're talking about that are putting out all this misinformation about what you use how snap is used it's also what it's used for newsmax there was a viral clip going around that that where the anchor was saying oh so you can't get your nails done you can't get your weave done that is not what snap is for it's for food you can't even you're not even supposed to

my alcohol with snap like it's for food it's for your fruits your vegetables your meat your dairies to supplement, supplement your groceries, supplement your household with necessary food items. People aren't using it to do for hobbies, which is another thing that is a good distinction to make. And when you're asking us right now, how is there definitive education and information on what people are using SNAP for and how they're using it? The program is very efficient, has been around for a long time, and we can look into the numbers surrounding SNAP

and tell you exactly even the amount of fraud that exists in SNAP. The vast majority, the vast majority of errors in this program happened because people don't fill out the paperwork right. The fraud rate on this is very low. And one of the reasons why

the fraud rate on improper benefit use of SNAP, improper recipient use of SNAP, improper, there's sometimes stores can be guilty of the fraud. They call it trafficking. One reason why that is less prevalent than people would make you believe that it is is because the states are held responsible for that. The states have to respond to an inspector general

who then looks into how they are like administering the benefits. And if there is too much fraud, there's oversight there, and the states can be fined for the amount of fraud that goes into their SNAP infrastructure. So there is, of course, with any program, things that fall through the cracks. But this one is one that is working, and it works to feed Americans.

Now, food banks, if people think that food banks are an adequate substitution for SNAP and yen, reductions in SNAP, this was from the Big Beautiful Bill, could eliminate the equivalent of 6 to 9 billion mills annually. So think about that. Before we're even talking about the government shutdown, we're talking about the big beautiful bill and changes that they made to SNAP, that would take away at a conservative estimate, 6 billion meals, 6 billion meals. For context, the entire Feed-in-American Network, which includes more than 200 food banks

and 60,000 faith-based and charitable partners distributed 6 billion meals last year. These numbers were based solely on the program cuts from this past summer's big feudal for bill, not a complete program funding freeze like what will begin in November and impact every single enrollee. So food banks are fantastic.

Give out a lot of meals, a lot of stuff, but this program is so wide reaching and it's so far reaching that people are going to go hungry in a very direct way if in fact Snap is gutted by the big, beautiful bill, or if it completely goes away during the government shutdown. I'm mortified by this.

I mean, to be honest with you, Van, and I love the breakdown and, and the, oh, well, keep going. What I was going to say is, I don't even know, I think it's necessary to fully have to say what Snap is to understand that people are going to go hungry. And that's really all you need to know. But I appreciate us dispelling, getting rid of some of this misinformation and letting people know exactly what Snap is for, how rare fraud is, and who it benefits,

and how it truly is a supplemental program and not something that people can fully take advantage of, which is what some of the rhetoric is out there from people who are against it. But at the end of the day, people are having to choose whether or not they feed their families or they pay a certain bill.

Those are the choices that people are being faced with at the beginning of this month. To me, that is all you need to know to be totally disgusted and mortified at what's happening. But at higher learning, we do provide the background of ratio. And we should. No, it's important to understand this, that all of this stuff is,

I want you to think about when we're talking about people who are under-resourced, the decisions that they have to make. Correct. Right. So let's take food banks, for example. I'm going to say this very clearly. Food banks are a fantastic resource for people.

And the people that are working at food banks right now need your help. Yes, you can go to the grocery store, buy a whole bunch of food, and then take them to food banks. That is very helpful. But the best thing you can do right now is just to give cash to the food banks. So if you have extra, and I know that not everybody does, but it's a good thing. if you have extra, whatever your local food bank is, just throw them some cash. Think about what $200 gets you.

Probably should get you more than what it gets you right now. But think about what $300 gets you. Think about what $10 get you. Remember, every single, if everybody that listened to this podcast, we're one of the biggest podcasts in the whole world, probably top five podcasts ever existed in terms of audience. We are probably the largest, we the biggest, we the largest ever. I'm speaking into existence

but if it was $2, if it was $3, the collective right there would really help food banks be able to get a lot of food out to people or have enough food for the demand in case the wrong thing happens with SNAP. But think about something real quick. A food bank is a place

where you have to go. Which means you have to do what? Which means you have to do what? To go A food bank is a place that you have to go. That means you have to do what? Donnie? Travel to the place. You have to travel. You have to drive. Right.

Now, there are some places, bigger cities, New York, Chicago, L.A., where public transportation might be such that you can get to the place. But then there are also other rural areas where that is not the case. Right. Where you are going to have to have a car, get into a car, go to a food bank, which means then that you have to do what? Put gas in that car. So you have to put gas in that car.

First of all, you have to have to have the car or you have to get a ride from someone. You have to put gas in that car. Then, so you have to pay for the gas or you have to consider the gas that you're going to the food bank and gas that you're going to use other places. So your resources, which are already

very tightly budgeted and very finite, are being stretched because of the decision to eat food. And let me add one more thing to that. I'm assuming the food bank might not be as close as the grocery store that you used to go to. So now you have to take time away from maybe it's something else that you have to do. Maybe it's a job to go travel to wherever this food bank is. So now you're taking away from possibly work, having to maybe figure out how like you're going to care for your children if you have to spend extra time going to do that.

There's a number of factors. A whole bunch of facts. We could talk about this as it relates to so many different things. If we were talking about voter ID laws and why voter ID laws need to be inclusive in terms of lower income populations, it's because of in lower income populations, you see different forms of ID that people have, right?

You see more expired licenses. You see people who don't have cars, so they have driver's licenses less. You see all kinds of different things that when we're talking about, these grand sweeping ideas of what someone should have, there's just a group of Americans that we do not consider. And one reason why we don't consider those group of Americans

is because we are told that those group of Americans are losers in the game of capitalism and that their needs and who they are really don't reflect who we are as a country or what we should care about. They should be doing better. So when the dysfunction comes along and they starve, we don't really give a fuck about it.

But the reality is there are so many people that at some point need SNAP benefits. There are so many people that at some point need help in a country where they are made intentionally poor, where the taxing system has become more regressive, where resources have been sucked out of these places, where there is underinvestment,

where they are actually fighting a game against a steroid-filled system of gangster capitalism and American oligarchy. That's not fair in the first place. And they just want to eat. And they need a little help. So the important thing is during this shutdown, which is happening for all kinds of political reasons,

some people may agree with, some people don't agree with that we don't lose sight of the fact that we're, number one, going to have to feed people in the interim if the Trump administration has its way. And then number two, what the big beautiful bill has already

done to SNAP? Already done. Just so you guys know. There's a 20-hour workweek requirement in SNAP. The BBB changes a lot of the exemptions that go into it, right? Some people that are exempt from that work

requirement, pregnant mothers, children, the elderly. The BB raised the age. range from 55 to 65. They remove veterans, homeless people, parents of dependence over 14, and former foster care youth older than 18, but younger than 24, from the list of people that are exempt from the work requirements. Honestly, if I was going to make a political issue of that, because I'm looking at it and, you know, some of these people that were removed, they just don't care about, right? They don't care about homeless people. They don't care about the parents

of dependence over the 14. They don't care about the elderly. But just the decision, and I haven't heard a lot of people, a lot of Democrats bring this up. And maybe I'm ignorant to this. But just a decision to remove veterans. Just the decision to remove veterans from that to me is profound. Like if you love the military, as much as people say that they do,

as much as the right, as much as the conservative party, conservative movement, should I say, says that they do. If you love the military that much, why would you make it harder for veterans to eat? No, you're making all the sits of the world. I mean, we know Trump doesn't really care

about the military. He has said so. Of course, he has taken that back. So that doesn't necessarily shock me. I guess for me, and we talked about this, we teased this a little bit last week when we talked about it,

this goes in line with what they want to do with Project 2020. I mean, it's, it's, I mean, the, the big, beautiful bill is a part of that, but they want to, well, one, they want to use this shutdown as leverage to reshape federal agencies and policy. And that includes government assistant programs like SNAP. They don't care. They don't care because they're so far removed from it, who it's impacting, who it's affecting. They just don't. Or you have politicians who are completely ignorant, not realizing that their very own constituents are in. impacted by this, they use these programs because in their mind, people are lazy and they just need to get out and work. And they're not realizing that this is continuing to burden the working class. These people are working and their rent is half of the money. They're working for eight, 12-hour days. Their rent is half of the money they're bringing in. Then they have to provide

groceries. Then they have to take care of their children. Then they have to provide basic necessities of elect utilities. They have to use gas. All these things just to survive. And at the end of the day, they have nothing left over. Nothing. This is to help them because costs are so much. And they just don't realize that all they're trying to do is shift things that widen the gap and benefit them over the American people. It's party over people. It's policy over people. It's politics over people. It's privilege over people. That's really their new thing. Well, yeah, new, old, same as before. And you know what?

Another thing is, it's like, you know, when you talk about working people, you could raise the minimum wage. You know, you could raise the minimum wage. I mean, when we talk about the way people have abandoned working people in this country and we, you know, we can move on to Trump's 60 Minutes interview and not belabor this.

When we talk about the way people have abandoned working people in this country, it has been a multi-front war. It's been a war on the side of, you know, consolidating wealth at the top. Obviously, it's been a war on the infrastructure, the manufacturing jobs, the American dream in a lot of fundamental ways. Like, what you can attain as an average American. It's been a war on all of that. And it's been a war that's been purposefully waged so that our country, can become an entire nation based around financial speculation

that is a game for the hyper-rich and the ultra-wealthy, right? If you don't really make anything and the life of the average working American is not a part of the calculation about whether or not you have a functioning society, then eventually you come to a situation where they, there is no consideration for those people as even consumers.

We've talked about this before. If you were working in the car plant back in the day, the goal was you should be able to afford the car that you're making. Sure, sure. Right? The goal was that you should be able to afford the tires that you're making in the tire plant. Whatever it is, we could talk about many different industries and all of that stuff. But those jobs move away, right?

They're not in America anymore. You don't really give a fuck what people can buy or what they can afford. Like what you actually care about is that they don't make enough noise to shed light on the fact that this country is rolled up. They're betting on the fact that you can pay your mortgage. They roll up all your mortgages into securities and they play around with that. They're betting with your 401K. They're betting. They're betting.

They're betting. They're playing with all of the money and really transferring it to each other. what about you? Then on top of that, when they run out of money to play with, they go, we need more. They go, we need more. So the stuff that we had there,

any type of social safety net, we're going to take a little bit from that, cut the taxes to make sure the guys that we want to win have the opportunity to win. This is not gloom and doom. This is what's been happening. And the reality is

that there's an unwillingness to speak to this and to talk about this because the people that are in this position where they actually need help don't have any real power. There is no one that really speaks to them or for them. Well, they thought that there was. I'm watching videos of people crying over the fact that they don't have Medicaid, that they don't know how they're going to pay their next bills, that they don't know how they're going to feed their families. And then they're saying they voted for Trump. These people voted for Trump because they did not like the economy. They did not like Biden. They felt like Trump was speaking on behalf of them. Trump was working for them. They weren't paying attention to what Trump was really saying. They weren't paying

attention, obviously a lot of people weren't to Project 2025 and the things that he wanted to implement that were going to directly impact them. Why? Because you have your policy. politicians telling you, oh, like a Tommy Tuberville, this is going to affect the inner city. No, it is going to affect at least 15% of the people in your state that are on SNAP. These people who voted, under, I, I, it is, I know some people are ignorant to it, but there are people who voted who understood some of this stuff that was going to happen, but they didn't think that it was going to happen to him. Because what that party does is separate white people or inner city people, well, white people, suburban people, rural people from inner city, black and brown

people. And it makes you think, I understand these things are going to happen, but I don't think it's going to happen to us. And really what it comes down to is you voted that way, not because you didn't think it was going to happen to happen, because you didn't think it was going to happen to you. You allowed them to lie to you and tell you that you're different from the inner city, from black and brown people and those policies will be implemented, but you will be saved in all of that. And then the reality is, no, it is affecting you because you are on the same benefits that some of these other people are. And at the end of the day, it's not just the politicians, it's the people. People need to understand exactly what it is that they're voting for, who they're voting for, and how it directly

impacts them. And I hope that they're realizing it now more than they did ever. before, but people have to stop voting for just themselves and realizing that the policy will affect you too. I really think that they bought into that lie. I really think people were okay with this happening. They thought that it wasn't going to happen to them. You don't think so. I think I disagree. I'm not, I do. I think you're, I think you're right, but let me tell you why I am convinced that this needs to be, first of all, I don't disagree. You're right. But let me tell you why I think we need to go or we need to start penetrating a little bit deeper there. Okay. Oh, Danny. Let me tell you why. Okay. So we are dealing with a low information voter

problem. Yes. Just how they want it. We are dealing with people who don't understand in a lot of cases the impact on their lives that some of these policy decisions will have. That's true. They are being made that way purposefully. Correct. So the battle that, to me, the average person is fighting right now against misinformation and disinformation is Herculane.

It's a gigantic huge battle. And if we look at a couple of things that have happened, number one, the deterioration of the educational system, the rise of social media. The lack of verification. The lack of verification, the intentionality of keeping people low information, and the fear that goes along with scarcity, there is, to me,

a greater, there's a greater problem. And the greater problem to me is not that the people themselves are falling victim to being misled. The greater problem is that there is a tremendous incentive by powerful people to mislead them. And so to me, I can make an argument that a lot of what I'm talking about doesn't have very much to do with party.

I can make an argument that the Democrats have forfeited their role in American politics as being the party of the working people. that this corporate capture that I'm talking about exists everywhere. That it's not just the far right or the Republicans or the MAGA Republicans that are fallen victim to being captured by a corporate class. And that it's not just them that have abandoned working people. It's not just them. that it's the American political infrastructure

itself that has done that. Sure. And that there have been mistakes made from presidents and local leaders on both sides of the aisle. And that if there was really a focus on working people or a focus on protecting working people,

protecting black people, then there would have been different decisions made all over the place, right? And the reason why that's important to say is because it's, It's very easy right now, in my opinion, not wrong, but it's very easy right now to look at somebody and to say you should know better.

Like it is. It's very easy to say that. I'm not saying that you shouldn't say it. That's not what I mean, but yes, I understand what you say. I'm not saying that you shouldn't say it. What I'm saying right now, though, is that they don't. You know what I mean? You're not wrong.

And if they're going to be emiserated by someone who lies to them, who whips them up, there is definitely an amount of personal responsibility. That's why it's, I got to call out one thing. And I've been on this train before, too. There's something that happens and it is funny, but it's also not funny. and I smile even in thinking of it because it is funny that people, when people do it. So whenever something happens and a Trump administration policy comes out, it's involving Latino people. I already know what you're going to say. Okay.

They will show the Latino person that has been wrong. And then they will play. The next slide would be, I will vote for Donald Trump. The song, the song. The song. And first of all, that song is ridiculous. All right, that song is ridiculous. And that song, the back to back of...

Sorry. And see, this is the thing, it is. The back to back of, like, a guy with an accent or whatever saying, this happened to me. And then a slide where it's, I will vote for Donald Trump, it's jarring because it's like, listen, this is how you got. I played.

That is true. I understand that. But at the same time, I do think that we're past it now. Okay. We hope, I hope we are past it. You are correct. I don't disagree with anything you said. The only thing I will say is you're right.

Because even it was something that we put in our group chat where you have these fake videos out here right now about outrage of black women that they're using right now on AI with like 10 kids jumping behind. them that don't even look like them. And they're, you know, like screaming about having multiple baby daddies and how are they going to pay for it? And it's fake. But you have people actually with platforms reacting to fake videos. So you're right. That is so hard to compete with. What also is hard to compete with, which it's not a, I'm not saying you should know better. It's fighting people's desire to climb the social caste system that exists within our country. It's a hierarchy

that you, it is hard to combat that there are people no matter how poor, how desperate they are, they thrive on, at least I'm better than them. And it's what politicians I feel like do is play into that mentality of, I might be on snap and you might be on snap, but you're lazy and you're not working. At least I'm working. You're using it for your nails and your weave. I'm using it for it to provide for my family. I'm trying.

I'm trying to dig myself out of this hole and achieve the American dream. You're a burden on the system and you're taking it. taking advantage of it playing into that. So I'm better than you. That's where I don't excuse. And I think a lot of that exists without realizing, hey, we're both struggling. We're both in the working class.

We're lower income. We need this assistance. We need the government to work and represent us on behalf of us. So we can just survive, right? Not struggle check to check. Instead, you have people separating themselves to try to one up, to try to be better, because that makes them feel better

about their place in the society. by standing on someone and putting them down. Why do you think they do that? It's people want, it's the social caste system. But why? But why would someone, think about this, why would someone risk emiserating themselves to uphold a social caste system

that doesn't benefit them? Why would they do that? For favor? I think people just have it. It is inherently within people to want to be better than other people, to want, it makes them feel more powerful. It makes them feel like they're at a better situate in society.

It's a myth, obviously. But I just think knowing that it goes back to the Latino example that you're saying. Those, those things directly impacted them. But they felt that they were at least better than another group of people. I don't know what to call it. I don't know the exact answer that you're saying. First of all, you're right. But I guess my question is what would make that a thing?

thing. And if you say that it's inherent in people to want to be better than other people, I do. I actually disagree with that. Okay. Right? So I think cooperation between people is inherent. I think that there's always been like... If history has predictive value, that's what we've always seen. Is somebody putting one group of people down in order to better themselves up in order it's why you have a crab mentality. It's why you have people who pull the ladder up from behind them. I mean, look at fucking J.D. Vance. You know, the very, the very system you grew up on, you are trying to diminish. Right.

You know what I mean? It's people pull, people don't like, like being better than other people. I do think that that, I'm not saying everybody plays into that, but I do think that that is inherently within us. I think that that's a direct response to capitalism. Sure. I think, I think a system of winners or losers. makes you want to be one of the winners. I think even slavery and the slave trade,

the Transatlantic slave trade, chattel slavery in America all over the world, is directly, I think all of this stuff is directly linked to competition for resources. And competition for resources means, okay, so how are we going to get to where we're going? Number one, all right, we've exhausted the resources where we're here.

Let's go to another place where people don't understand the warlike way of life that we live. Let's go over there and let's exploit them for resources. All right. Now, as we exploit them for resources, we're Portuguese, we have to exploit them for resources better than Spain does. Right. We have to keep Spain.

Okay, now here come the French. The French want to get in on some of this. All right. Now, who has the best way to exploit these native people? Okay, cool. Now, how can we work faster? We can work faster if we don't have to pay people. All right, so what do we do?

We then go get slaves to get the, the bananas, the rice, the indigo, all of that. It's cheaper. It's better. Now, how do we keep the mechanism of slavery and the American system going? How do we establish a baseline for what an American citizen really is? Well, we have to have a group of people that you don't have to care about. So in order to keep them enslaved, we have to then sell you on the religion that you don't have to care about them. Nigger.

Nigger is what they are. and what don't you have to care about a nigger? You don't have to care about a nigger's kids. You don't have to care about a nigger's grandmother. You don't have to care about anything that happens to a nigger. Why? We need niggers in the field. Okay, after the niggers are gone,

us actually having a reconciliation with ourselves would be giving them full citizenship. Well, we can't do that. We can't do that because we still need an example in America on what not to be. Why? Because the resources here are, finite and we already decided we don't want a nigger to have nothing.

So since the resources are finite, or at least we think that they are, we don't want a nigger to have nothing. Let's make sure the rest of the world knows that it is better off living in a country where you have something and a nigger doesn't. That is the white male orthodoxy that exists and has existed for America since inception. My thing is, a critique of that definitely includes the people that believe in it. Of course. It definitely includes the people that believe in it. But my primary critique is the people that propagated over and over and over and over again

and the people that fall through the cracks between it. And that's always going to be power. It's always going to be the people that say, hey, I know what it would take to feed people. But rather than feed them, I'll arrange them in a death match and a grudge match between each other. And then they will both not realize. that they're eating the same group. Yeah, yeah. And those people have an intentionality,

particularly in this situation right here, where so many of the people here are undereducated and are being or worshiping at the altar of what it is that we're talking about. And this is not, by the way, some hyperhumanist view of the world that doesn't include a disdain and me despising racism or me despising classism. To me, after a while, it just becomes an accurate way to diagnose this problem and get to an end of it.

Because I can't change people's hearts and minds. The tradition of racism that has existed in them since time in memoriam, I can't get to the middle of their heart. But I can't say to them that you will be poor to, that you will starve to. And I have to be able to say that there is somebody who benefits from you starving. And so that right there, I'm still formulating, and we can have this conversation in a grander way. And we can play the Trump clip too. I'm still formulated in a way to make that less about the things that trigger me personally and more about a critique of the system that we're...

You're not wrong. You're not wrong. We're both, I think, saying the same things. The system is playing into the very thing that I am talking about. And until people realize, you don't, you don't, one, so power actually starts helping people, but also people realizing, hey, we're all, we're all just fighting to survive. It's not you of me over you, you over me. We're all trying to work just so we can, you know, find our place and have the things we need within this country.

It's both. Both have to work together. Give an example of this. Donnie, listen to this. This is, Trump was on 60 minutes. This Trump clip is what I'm talking about. Donnie played. I mean, I could go point. Can I ask you about the economy?

These are 99 to one issues. And they don't change. I just watched this morning a show where... Mr. President, can I ask you about the economy? Just one thing. I watched a show this morning where a very well-known Democrat congressman was fighting like hell for men playing in women's sports. They don't change.

So who was that? I don't want to tell you'll be able to check it. Just check your local TV. Okay. On the economy. Now, in any functional democracy, that would be a let them eat cake moment. Like, seriously, in any actual, honest, functional democracy, that would be a let them eat cake moment. Mr. President, Mr. President, Mr. President, the economy, can we talk about the economy?

Let's not talk about the economy. Let's talk about the fact that there is a well-known, unnamed anonymous, I guess, Democrat that he didn't want to actually name that is talking about the trans issue as far as men playing women's sports. So let's not talk about a legitimate issue about rising grocery prices about a different economy for the rich and the average working American. Let's talk about the cultural war issue that can whip people up and not about their needs. in any functional intelligent democracy

that would be, well, this guy clearly doesn't give a fuck about the fact that things are tough for us. Yeah, and he's also making it seem like in that clip, the Democrats don't care about what's happening. They're more focused on transgender rights than they are the economy. So, it's kind of

what I'm talking about. Now, you might, there's also a retort to this, and I can hear you guys. That says, man, people actually are moved by that and you're right you're right people are actually moved by that people are still being

moved by cultural war issues that want to cast trans people black people Latino people a lot of people that are not a part of the straight white male orthodoxy they want to cast them in a way that makes them seem like

goons and ghouls and people that are trying to steal their version of America that is that is true and those people do buy into that. I guess what I'm saying is now that this is being done purposefully. It's being done for a long time. It's by the way, not just being done on the right. It's not. The abandonment of working Americans is not just happening on right. Yeah. And so to me, that's where we

put the pressure while we acknowledge that these people don't want to eat with us. They don't want to sit with us. They don't want to sit with us. They don't want to be cool with us. They don't want to have a fun time with us. Us, the blacks, the blicks. But they are having a fun time. This is what I mean. You talk about the let them eat cake moment.

Trump is literally, literally playing in the face of the American people, the working class. How you throw a party. Not only do you throw a party while people are trying to figure out how they're going to feed their families. First, you're out of the country, dancing in the street. dancing in the street. Like, the country is trying to figure out what's the next step forward,

and you outside of the country having a good old time. You come back, and what do you do? You throw a party, but not just a party at the White House. You throw a great Gatsby party. You can't make that up. You throw a great Gatsby party. He is playing in your faces. He is trolling you.

He is laughing at you. He is literally saying this, it's the roaring twins. And we all know what happened after that. Yeah. Yeah, man. We all know what happened. And by the way, Aaron Sorkin, not Aaron Sorkin, what's this guy? Andrew Ross Sorkin.

Andrew Ross Sorkin. He wrote a book about 1929 and about the crash. Now, there's going to be a bubble that pops on AI. We've been talking about it. Might not be as bad as 29. We hope not. It might not be, but it will be bad. So the reality is the excess, all the decadence, there's a cost.

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Ask your doctor about trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about trimfaya, including important safety information. I want to say, I want to talk about one thing real quick. Okay. I want to talk about Halloween. Now, this is interesting. We have Corrine Jean-Pierre on the show today, by the way. We haven't mentioned that.

She's going to be on the show. We're going to do a long interview with her about her book, Independent. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. She talks about Broken White House. She does. What she said. And she makes a clear which Broken White House she's talking about.

about. A little confusing. A little confusing. Little confusing. People thought. She's going to explain that. But I want to say something and it's going to be tough for people to understand why I'm saying this. All right. So Halloween came and we get what we get every Halloween, which was some blackface. Yeah. You know, every Halloween, there's some blackface.

And I said something on Twitter about one specific piece of blackface and one specific specific person that did the black face and when I saw this I looked at it and I was like we have to ignore this don't bring up her name

okay be the don't bring up her name no shine okay then why are we talking about it because it's important to talk about the overall mechanism no shine she's beat the beat the name no shine no shine whatsoever no shine

I'll tell you guys something. Our outrage, let me stop. We have to ignore some of this. We have to. Black outrage has always been in industry for races, always. But it's different now. It's different now because of the X payment system.

The X payment system essentially makes everybody on X into a digital PIP. And the rise of new media agitators that are out there that want to be pimps, they want to pimp your outrage. They want to put you on a digital hostrope. They want you to do the work and then to bring the clicks and their attention back to them so they can directly monetize it for it. That's their entire deal.

They offer not even anything serious, not even anything halfway interesting to any type of debate. Their only existence is based upon ruining your day. That person, I know it's tough, has got to be ignored. It's actually not tough. It is tough for a lot of people because seeing racism and not calling it out is a pro-evolutionary trait for black people. It's pro-evolutionary to say, hey, I was treated wrong here.

I had a bad experience here. Everybody that's black. Big red sign. Don't go here. They killing us over here. I get it. There's something that's different that's happening now, and we got to ignore it.

We have got to ignore it because we are actually enriching people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That are playing upon the emotions, the trauma, the experiences of us and our ancestors to make them directly wealthy. This is what I will say about this person in particular, right? To me... Let's not even forget about even naming her.

Just like, let's have a conversation just about it. I don't get outrage like this. Like, I get outraged like when we have the Tyler, and outrage is a stretch. But like, you know, give attention to what we saw happen with Tyler the creator and talking about, you know, his place in music and all of that and how it's a thing, right? The audience, the things he did to troll,

where he is now, the evolution of the artist. That's a whole different conversation. I'll talk about that. I'll even get upset and annoyed by that kind of stuff. But when I see this, I'm at a point, and maybe this is me getting older. And I do see this rhetoric on social media. It's not our fight. Guys don't worry about it.

The whole notion of they're so obsessed with us. That's kind of where I settle in. You know everything about what we do, how we are not exactly what we do, but you know what I mean? Like the things we like to wear or like when you're trying to imitate us in ways that we don't, we don't do that for you. You are very much so obsessed with what we're doing, how we're doing it.

And to me, that's where I land to where I don't even want to respond. I don't even care anymore because it's just you trying to play into, I get it now. And again, this might be my maturity in it all. What I will say to people, though, is you're right. Don't respond.

Don't share. These blogs. Don't repost. There's, like, this, so-and-so did this and get people outrage. Instead, just silently, if you feel like you must do something, just reporting. In that way, that way you're not interacting with their post in any kind of way. They're not gaining anything from it.

Just go report this as a violation. If you feel like you must do something. And that kind of thing has an effect. One of the people we're discussing is banned from a social media platform. And I'm sure from this very reason. Every time you say one of the people, you're giving it shine. You know what I mean. There have been people who have been banned because people report it.

So I won't tell you to do nothing. I'll just say there is a way to go behind it to get this person, to get people like this removed from social media to where they can't continue to harass and be obsessed with us in a way that is offensive. I saw it and I kept scrolling. So this is my thing. The obsession thing, all of that, I get it. I understand it.

If somebody has corporate power, if somebody has cold, control power, if somebody has organizing power. If the Tyler of the creative situation, Tyler creator is in community with us, right? He's going to ask you to buy something. He's going to ask you to attend something. That is worth litigating, right? If you go into a restaurant, you like to eat at the restaurant,

and the restaurant got a nigger table where everybody is saying, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, you go to the people in the restaurant and you say, hey, if the nigger table stays here, I won't eat here, and then I'll go outside and tell everybody not to eat here. Somebody has political power, cultural power, organizing power, all of that. They're commanding great swaths of people, all of this stuff.

You have the duty and the ability to say, hey, we don't want to fuck with this. I get it. But there are rogue people that are existing just to try to get to that perch off your outrage. And we have just simply got to ignore those people. We have got to ignore them. We can't give them any type of life.

And shine is the last time I'll even talk around this. But for everybody out there that's just doing the whole thing, we all know that racism exists. We know that people trade in racism. We know that we know all of this. But unless there is some fundamental effect on us, something that people are asking from us or people that have actual power,

we just got to let the peons talk to themselves. It's just the way that it's going to go. That's it. That's it. We got to do that. We got to do that. I agree. Let's pause and let's bring in Karin Jampere.

Let's talk to her about a book. Higher learning. There is a book out right now that is making the rounds. You're everywhere. You are. Am I? I'm in a bubble, so it's hard to get a real sense of what's happening. Really?

You know, you know, when you're in the bubble, you're just like going from one place to another to another. You're getting on a flight, going to this event. You're not in reality. You're in your own pocket. We're going into the bubble. We're popping the bubble. Okay. Please pop the bubble.

The book is independent. A look inside a broken White House outside party lines. Karen Jean-Pierre joins us on Higher Learning today. How are you? You know, I'm good. I'm good. I'm here with y'all. It's beautiful in L.A.

Oh, my God. That's nice. We're having really hot. It's hot. No, I was like, oh, I got to take, like, layers off. It's really hot. White House press secretary under President Joe Biden, Vice President Kamala Harris,

explained to our audience, before we even get into the book, what prompted you to write it. The theme of the book, tell people what the White House press secretary does. So the White House press secretary, which was it was a privilege and an honor. I always say that to have been White House press secretary

because I spoke for the most powerful person in the world, the president of the United States, and I did it as a first. I was the first black person, the first openly queer person, the first immigrant, like many first. And so I carried all these communities with me in the job. And so it made it much more special to have had the job.

So my, what I was, my portfolio, and what I was charged to do was to speak, on behalf of the president of the administration to the American people, obviously doing it in the press briefing room with the press and going back and forth, but pushing out what we were trying to do, pushing out our message, and trying to answer really hard questions and important questions that the American people needed to know. And so I did it for two and a half years. I am currently right now the longest serving female press secretary because it's not a job that you should do for very long because it's a pretty stressful job. But again, it was an honor and a privilege, and that was my role for two and a half years. And I got to travel around the world, across the country. And it was an experience that I will never have again in my life. Yeah. Anytime I see you or someone in that position take that podium, I'm always like, I like, I like things moving fast.

I like the live action. I like the change. But that is one of the most stressful, anxious jobs. and you don't really know what's coming at you too. You don't. So you can't even really prepare for it as much preparation as I'm sure you had. What does one do to relax or did you ever relax or come down in those two and a half years? It's hard because it's seven days a week.

You're constantly on your phone. You have two phones, right? You're constantly, it's always buzzing and someone needs something from you, 12, 15 hour days. And so what I ended up doing for myself was I would wake up. I woke up at 4.30 every morning and I would pray, I would meditate, and I would exercise. If I did not do those things, I don't think I would have been able to survive. And it was my moment, my time, which is one of the reasons I woke up so early so I could be able to do that. But that was it.

I mean, it's very isolating too when you have these types of jobs where the camera's on you, everybody, the focus is on you. You really don't have a personal life because you're recognized everywhere that you go. And so you feel very isolated. And so you don't really have a lot of outlets. So you have to create a safe space for yourself, which is also very difficult to do. You came out looking great. It didn't get to you.

They call it the White House post-White House glow up. It's a real thing. It's a real thing. It's a divorce. Ooh, I didn't think about that. I know that well. Oh, okay. Well, we had to talk.

I'm fresh off my own. Oh. So, okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. This book is in part an examination of the two-party system. in America. Yes, yes. And I'm glad you said that. That's exactly what it is. It's in part an

examination of that. I have talked about it at great length on this podcast and I have lost faith in party. I don't believe in the structure of party anymore. Political clubs, be that as they may. What was your decision to leave the Democratic Party? And I'm so glad you set it up that way because that's exactly it. And when I'm talking about the broken White House, I'm actually talking about the current White House. And yes, to me, the two-party system is broken. And, you're broken, right? And when you do not have a functioning party system, then your democracy becomes something that's fractured as well. And right now, our democracy is hanging by a shoestring. And the parties are just not working. One party is completely lost and the other party,

I feel, is not fighting enough. And so the book came about when I left the White House in January after the Biden-Harris term was done, I was bumping into people, whether at the airport and my at school or at a coffee shop and folks would be like, what's going on? Why weren't they, why weren't the Democrats ready? Why aren't they fighting? I mean, they're like Project 2025, like it's going. Like, he's going at it. And at the time was anti-D-EI, right, going after federal agencies. These really, these secretaries that he was nominating that were not qualified, that were basically against the agencies that they were supposed to be secretaries and head of. And so I thought to myself, yeah, what is going on?

And that was the reason of writing the book, but it also goes back to the administration time. And what I saw when I was in, obviously, as White House press secretary, I mean, the fact that Kamala Harris, who should have won didn't win was heartbreaking. and 92% of black women came out once again. And I do feel like the party forgets us. We are the backbone of the party. We are on the front lines. And they largely forget us.

And I think they should have fought harder. They should have been behind her a lot more, the party leadership. And they weren't. And I think there was something that was missing. So there was a lot of like this illusionment and scratching my head. Like what happened? Like how did we get here?

And that's when I started to examine, okay, how do I have a voice in this? And when you look at independence, and I'm not asking for a third party, I'm asking to fix the system so that independence can actually participate in the system. So if there's a closed primary independence, which are millions of voters out there, they can't participate. And independence are people who are saying, basically what you're saying is I don't see myself represented in either party, but I want to participate. but then you can't participate in close primaries.

So to me, that's a problem with the system. And so we have to make the system more about the people and less about the parties. And so that's the conversation that I'm trying to have. I'm trying to start a conversation. But also, so that's one part of it. And the other part of it, too, is how do I put myself in a situation where I can push party leadership in the Democratic Party to do better, to do more? and not to throw vulnerable communities under the bus,

which is one of the things that I started to see very, very early on in 2025. You know, I saw that you said that when you met a broken White House that you don't mean the Biden White House, that you mean the Trump White House, nobody believes that. Well, because the book was written to be in the moment. I was literally, you know, when you read the book,

you'll see that I'm talking about what's happening right now and meeting the moment. I mean, people didn't believe that, because they want a tell-all, right? I think people are, you know, they assume the book was going to be, I'm telling secrets. And I'm not, the book doesn't have secrets in it. The book is literally talking about my experience. And I get to speak from my point of view.

But I'm not telling secrets about, you know, my bosses, right? I'm not, I'm not saying, oh, and this happened. Because that's not the part of the book. That's not the purpose of the book. So folks, I think when the cover came out and they didn't read the press, the press release, they came with the cover. I think the assumption was, oh, she's writing a tell-all. But the book is much more nuance and has much more depth.

And it really is about meeting the moment. Yes, I give a story about what happened and, you know, kind of pull back the curtains and give a little bit of what it was like to be a first and what it's like to be a White House press secretary. But I am trying to talk about the moment that we're in and how do we move forward. Because these are dangerous times. I mean, by tomorrow, November 1st, people are going to lose, you know, folks who really need, who really need SNAP are going to lose it. We're talking about kids, elderly. We're talking about disabled people.

They're going to lose it. I mean, we are headed towards a food desert, which we haven't seen since the Great Depression. That's serious. There was nothing, in your opinion, that was broken about the Biden White House. I mean, what I would say is that we didn't get everything right. I'm not. What are some of the big things that you guys got wrong? I mean, look, I feel like could we have done more in climate change?

We did some. Could we have done more? Could we have done more on the economy? We could always do more in the economy, right? I mean, there are tons of things that I feel like we could have done more. But also, we objectively, it was a success, objectively, it was a successful three years. And what I mean by that is we came in. with multiple crises, the economy, COVID, and I mean, I could climate change, I can name it.

And we were able to start the process in turning all of that around passing historic legislation, whether it's the bipartisan infrastructure legislation, whether it's making sure people got out of COVID. Chips. I mean, you name it. You know, we were able to do big things for our veterans. were able to expand health care. And that was the beginning. And a lot of that was historic.

And one of the things that we wanted to do and the president and the vice president wanted to do is make sure that everything that we did had equity at the center of it. So you're not leaving black and brown communities or communities who are normally forgotten when you're trying to fix things and make things better. And so that's historic.

I think this, I think historians will look at the three years of the Biden-Harris administration, and we'll say it was one of the most effective domestically and trying to make things better in moving the country forward than we have seen in modern politics. Last, we can move into, we can get off the, so as you note things that you could have done better on, I think there's one glaring thing that people are going to ask if you could have done better on this. and of course is the genocide that happened in Gaza. And as we re-examine the Biden White House, it seems that that is something that people,

be it vice president Harris, yourself, Joe Biden himself, you guys seem reluctant to talk about that, how you feel about it, how people felt about it, especially as things, is it continues to be a story that seemingly gets worse and worse. So I have talked about how I feel. feel about it. It's devastating. It's messed up. It's awful. And to see- You guys feel like you could have done better on that. I look, what I will say, yes, I do. I do think that more could have

been done. I couch it because I'm not a foreign policy expert. It was not my policy. I spoke about it because that was the job. That's every White House press secretary job. And it was, and it would be inhumane and I would not be a human or a person if I didn't say what, what is happening and what has occurred and where we are today in Gaza, in the Middle East is heartbreaking. It's awful. And we need to get to a resolution. I know there's a temporary ceasefire. They need to be peace in the Middle East. And it is not something that I wanted to see.

I don't think it's anything that anybody in the administration wanted to. see. I hope Joe Biden, the president, is writing a book right now, and I hope he has an opportunity and I'm pretty sure that he will speak to it and lay out what his thoughts were, lay out why he went forward in the policy decisions that he made. But again, it was, you know, you have these jobs and like every other person that's dealt with every difficult issues in different administration, you have a job, you speak on behalf of the President of the United States. And it's not my policy. It's not something that, you know, I'm not speaking for Karin-Jean-Jean-Pierre.

But yes, it was awful. It was awful. And it would be, I would be lying if I didn't say it was awful. It was terrible and it was hard to watch. And the violence needs to stop. You talk about, and you talked a little bit about it when you talked about the title of the book and a look inside a broken White House. If Joe Biden had not,

I guess I'm curious, I'm trying to figure out when it became broken to you. Because you were a Democrat, you were in the party. While you were working with Joe Biden, did you feel like the leadership was broken? Did you feel like the party was broken in a sense that the messaging was off? Or was there, did that point change for you

when what you call in the book a betrayal? So first I want to say like the results from November 20, 2024 obviously are not what we wanted. And I think we all take accountability. We all have to take accountability. And when I say we all meeting the Biden and Biden Harris administration, the party, including myself, because we miss something. We clearly miss something. I talked about the economy, but clearly people weren't feeling it. And as the data showed the economy was better, people were like, look, we're not feeling this. And I think there was an incumbency issue. there were all a lot of things that happened that I have to lay out that we all should be really aware of and I have to speak to. What I saw, and I talk about a betrayal to Joe Biden, but I also talk about like what they almost did to Kamala Harris as well. So the betrayal to me is we have 150, 40 days left, and I get it, the debate, it was bad, it was awful, not going to say that it wasn't. but I feel like the way that they treated him was just the worst thing that I've ever seen anybody treat someone. Who's they? Democratic leadership.

And who? Well, I'm not going to call people out, but they know who they are. Not to ask. Yeah. But look, there was a, there was a, there was a campaign. A campaign every single day, somebody was coming out. from the governor, you know, the governor's side, the congressional side. And it was just ugly. And I just thought, this is not how you do it. This is not how you behave. And one of the things that I say is

we were eating our own and really, I feel, destroying the party while the Republicans were quiet. They didn't say anything that would, they didn't barely said anything that was happening with Joe Biden and what was going on, which means to me that they saw the Democratic party and they were like, oh, they're like destroying themselves. Or they wanted to Biden's day. Yeah. Like, look, because they were talking about his age and his. No, no, no, they were. They were. But I'm talking about the campaign. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the campaign that was happening with the Democratic leadership. Yes, I'm not, yes, they were talking about his age, all of those, like everybody was talking about his age. And then when he decided to, to step down,

that was talk about having an open primary, a brokered convention. And I'm like, well, why are we doing that? Why are we not giving her an opportunity? She is more than qualified. She's the current vice president. She was on the ticket with Joe Biden during the primary. And so there was that talk. And so it was, to me, it was incredibly fractured. It was a behavior that was unbecoming. And it was problematic for me. Can you elaborate a little bit, I guess, on how you feel like the Democratic leadership failed him? Because you mentioned the debate. Yeah. We all saw the debate. Kamala Harris talks about it in her book.

I don't know if you've had a chance to read it, but she talks about it in her book where she says everybody saw the same thing. But the messaging that was told to her was that you need to say how great of a job he did. Almost like ignore what you saw. That's not what she says verbatim. But it is that she was told to say, he. did great and all of these things. And she said that she was kind of reprimanded for how she did respond in regards to it. Oh, I thought she did a great. I talk about it in the book. I thought she did a great job responding to the debate. I'm, I would, she says they told her. I think

she did too. She was just she makes the book yet. Okay. I'm going to read it, but I haven't read it book yet. She makes the assertion that she was told you need to talk about how well he did. Okay. And she felt uncomfortable because she saw what everyone else did that he did not do a good job. So I haven't read it yet. Okay. I will say this. I think she did a phenomenal job as being on top of the ticket. I'm glad she wrote the book, and I think it's important for her to tell her truth.

So I'm not going to deny what she said. One of the things that I know that she said, and I saw it in an expert, she did say, and she said it multiple times, that she always thought that he was more than capable of leading. And that if she had ever seen anything that she cared about the American people in this country more, So she has been very clear about, no, I never saw anybody who couldn't lead who was in decline. Like she has actually said that several times. So that leads me to your question about the debate. Look. Or the leadership.

The leadership. I think, look, after we all witnessed that in response. Look, here's what I believed. Look, I think there's a question of should he have ran, you know, she had decided to do the reelection or not. that should have happened in 2023. Like I feel like that conversation should have happened. If they felt like he shouldn't have done it, it should have happened in 23. And it didn't.

And now you're in the summer of 2024. And when you do stuff like this, when you take down the head of the Democratic Party or you attack the head of the Democratic Party, it's going to have some effect on people who do support Biden or people who did support the administration. I feel like it just, it doesn't look good as a unison as we're trying to bring everybody together, as we're trying to bring the base together to move forward to win in November 2024. I actually thought, I believe it was detrimental to what we're trying to do in winning, in winning. And that's where my head was at. It's like, okay, how we're doing this, but how does that look to other people, how we're going to win if we do this? And then to say, okay, you know, it may not be her. It has to be somebody else. I mean, I just feel like you're sending a message that we're not together. We don't, we're not in unison. We're not trusting of Kamala Harris to be at the top of the ticket once Joe Biden decided not to do it. I just don't think it looked good for us as a party moving forward. I think it was, I do think it caused some damage. I really do. Point taken.

Yeah. Counterpoint. Yeah. A couple of things. One, is it possible that once Americans saw the debate that things were already too far gone? I mean, we're watching the debate. And I think sometimes the disconnect is this. I'll say a couple of things.

Number one, on the economy. Part of the reason why there was a glitch in communication between the base of the party as far as the people and maybe the higher-ups on. the economy is because the media didn't help educate Americans on the actuality of the economy. And that's because we have a left-leaning media. So they will point to things like the stock market. They will point to other things that don't directly have an effect on what the average American is feeling. And they would say this is proof that the stock, that the economy is doing just fine.

Now we know that there is almost two economies operating in America. one that Americans have almost no participation in. And another one that is actually the real economy. And I can make an argument that we are investigating those things now because there's a Republican in office, right? I agree. I don't disagree with anything that you just said. I totally completely agree.

And I have a chapter in the book about the media and their role in all of this. And I do think that one of the reasons that it was hard to break through is how the media was reporting it. But not just that. Does misinformation disinformation? information, right? There's so many things right now in this moment, and this is one of the things that I'm trying to say in the book, too, is being an independent thinker. Like, I'm not even

asking people to be independent in a sense of, like, leaving the party, but we now have to be independent thinkers in the sense where we have to question everything that we see. We have to fact check. We have to break through, because people are not really getting information from traditional media, right? They're getting information from Spotify, watching your show, watching... And we have to be better. I'll take responsibility for some of the fact of the reporting that happened

that we did. Yeah, but I'm not saying that wrong. No, no, I'm being real. I'm just letting people know it because a bunch of people that's going to be like, man, you told us the economy it was good too. I was like, yeah, but that's what I was reading. I thought the things were up, but they were not up, they were down. But so it's you know, there's a lot

of nuance and a lot of things to unpack. But yes, I I think the media, I think social media, you know, the social platforms. I think misinformation, disinformation. You have to be, you have to do so much work as a voter as a citizen to make sure you have the right information. And it is harder to do that now than ever before than ever before because you have leaders who are lying to you, like lying.

And so it is incredibly hard, incredibly difficult right now in this moment. So I don't think you're wrong. I think like you're, you're onto something that we are just kind of learning. right now. And I talk about that in the book. It's, look, look, you know, one of the things, like, one of the things about the book is I really am very worried about where we are in this moment. And yes, I want to start a conversation. Yes, the book is starting a conversation, but I really want people to stay engaged. And it's so hard because when you think the system isn't working for you, which is broken. And when you think that leaders are not representing you,

you want to walk away from it. But the thing is we have to figure out a way to get engaged, whether it's in our community and do something in our community that's worth it, that makes movement, that you see the effects, or figure out something else. And one of the things that I've been trying to tell young people is, you've got to get involved. Okay, run for something.

That's why Mom Dani in New York City is one of the most impressive things that I've seen in a long time, 33, 34 years old. socialist Democrat. I mean, he talks directly to the American people. He's talking about housing. He's talking about things that matter to folks. And it's young people came out and voted from in a primary, in a primary. And it bothered me that Democratic, again, Democratic leadership got it, we're trying to get in the way. I'm trying to get in the way about that. Just, yeah, yeah, go no, no, go ahead. I want to talk about, but in many ways, it's the same thing from the debate real quick. So by the time the debate was on television. I look at the debate in Mondani

and almost it's almost the same thing. We're looking at him. We're looking at it being successful. We're looking at it working. You're talking about Mum Donnie. We're looking at somebody cut through, talk directly to people, galvanize people. We're looking literally at someone turn the page on communication and connection.

And then we're looking at the establishment of the party. Stop it. The same thing with the debate was, we looked at Joe Biden. I'm not believing anyone. not Kamala Harris, not anyone that tells me that that guy could run the country. I just... I hear you, Vann.

I'm looking at Joe Biden on the stage. And this is after having seen Joe Biden in many different settings and went and just looking at it and going, you know, I don't know, that doesn't... And everybody, he's fine. He's fine, he's fine. And then he gets up there during the debate

at a point where you physically, visually, visually need to see somebody fight, fight the actual thing that's on the other side and he can't muster it, but then he's going to leave and be completely capable of running the country. I just, it looked impossible. And I hear you, and I'm not denying anything that you said. I'm just talking, again, from my personal perspective, on someone that I saw every single day, someone that I traveled with more than 95% of the time. And what I saw that night was not the person that I know that I see all the time. It just wasn't.

It was not him. And I was shocked. I was surprised. We all were. No one is denying that. But what I'm saying is it is not the person that I know. I got to see him. I got to see him every single day, every single day.

And that was not him. That just wasn't him. I think this is where it gets into, like we often talk about messaging. You talk about it in your book as well. talk about messaging, talk about how we feel like the Democrats just don't get it right. And that's the thing that I think that Van is pointing out. Perception is reality. It is.

And on this podcast, I was a very much so like I would see something and I like, okay, I see him at the Juneteeth. There's no way. They say you fine. They would tell us. There's no way. He was just caught up in the moment. It was, you know, and then you saw the debate and there was no denying it. So when perception is reality, that's when it's like, when do you put.

put yourself, I mean, it ended up happening, but it seems like if it was forced, when do you put yourself to the side over the country? And I think that's something that we took away from everything that happened surrounding Biden. And I'll use the word betrayal. I don't know if you could fully answer this question, but it was off. We thought Joe Biden was going to be a one-term president. And I know he'd actually say the word, but he would say transition. No, he did. He said he was going to be a trans. You're a thousand percent. So is it right for us to say that we feel it was a bit of a betrayal, that you said that this is what you were going to do and you positioned yourself this way? And then at the last minute, things turned. And that's a real question to ask. And that's something that literally he has to answer. And I hope he does it in the book because that is true. Right. He said he was going to be a transitional candidate. He wanted to, you know, after COVID, after Donald Trump, it was. And the voters decided they were like, okay, we. We don't want anything extreme.

We want just to get this guy out and we want somebody who knows how to run government to run government. That's essentially what happened in 2020, right? And he was the vice president for the first black president. He's been senator. We're going to do that, right? And he had said that. And he has to answer to that question. And I think it's a good question to ask.

I don't have an answer to that. Actually, what I will say is in 2023, I think in the moment when he was thinking, and again, he has to speak to this. When he was thinking about what he was going to do, there was a couple things that came up, right? He was the incumbent. He was the only person to beat Donald Trump. We had a successful, relatively successful midterms because it wasn't a red wave. We, you know, we had a relatively or objectively a good couple of years. I'm assuming that went into his thinking when he decided if he was going to run or not. But he has to answer to that. You're not, you all are not wrong. That was part of kind of the conversation.

in 2020 and 2019 on how do we, you know, how do we meet the moment of where we are as a country, hence, you know, the picking of Kamala Harris as the vice president and of very, very, the most diverse administration ever in modern politics. So that was all part of meeting the moment, but he has to speak to that. That is something I agree. He has to answer to all of you on that one. And I think that's when you look at what's happening in New York City and everything that we talked about. And you talk about perception as reality and you see what Momdani is doing. You see the excitement and you see people rallying behind him from all walks of life for a candidate like you haven't seen before in that position. And then you see the establishment.

You see the Democrats who've been, the veterans who've been there for a long time, not rallying behind him, not supporting him. What is your thought behind that? As somebody who was so closely connected to these people. and as an independent now, what do you, how do you think the party should go? So I find it very problematic, not just because they didn't just rally behind him, but he did it the right way, right? He participated in a Democratic primary process. He did the job. He campaigned. He was an unknown. He was not an he wasn't, he wasn't Eric Adams, he wasn't Cuomo. He was not somebody that people knew. And he did the work and he did it differently. And he won the primary. So that was really my problem with his like, okay, wait, he actually did the right thing, participated in a primary.

We tell people, we tell young people, hey, go out and vote. And he became the Democratic primary nominee for the mayor. And now you're saying to him, no, now you're saying you don't want him. So what message does that send to people who participated? That was the big problem for me. It's like, it's not like, it's not as if like, oh, you know, he galvanized everybody and maybe, maybe he might be the nominee. No, he actually became the nominee. It happened. And so for me, I think that hurts us. I think that hurts the party. I think you're sending a message to especially young people who don't want to, who feel disillusion and not sure if they want to participate and not feel seen. And now you're saying, oh, no, he, yeah, he's the, he, he was elected. you know, rank choice voting, which is not an easy thing. You have to really be really smart on how you campaign about around that and how you tell people to vote. And yeah, but we don't want him.

So we're going to, you know, get Eric Adams to drop out, go behind. I mean, it's just insane. And I think this is one of the things where the leadership needs to be called out. And this is what I'm talking about, right? It's like you can't, you can't do that. And if he wins on Tuesday, like, Democratic leadership needs to make sure. that he is a successful mayor. We can't, like, he cannot fail. We can't want him to fail. And so that is the problem that I,

it's like, that's a, Mamdani just became a really good example and what the problem is with the party right now. What percentage of politics would you say is just straight up lying? Oh, my gosh. I want a percent. Well, there's a lot of performative, that's for sure.

Straight up line. What percentage of politics is just, Straight lying. I think every candidate, every person is different. I mean, you look at the person in the White House, that's straight up lying like 24-7. I don't think everyone is like him. But I don't, you know, I think it depends. What percentage of what you said up there was your straight lies?

It was not lies. None of it was lies. None of it was lies. You have a. Because, no, because. You have a three-year, I told no lies. No, I didn't. I have to tell you no.

And if somebody asked me something, I couldn't answer. If somebody asked me something, no, if somebody, if you watch my briefing and somebody asked me something I could answer, I'd be like, I got to get back to you. I just don't know. I would say. And you were criticized for that. Yeah. And I was criticized because we're like, oh, she's not ready. It's like, no, I actually don't have the answer for you or I rather not say because I don't know if that's right or wrong or I don't want to, you know, get myself in a situation.

Is here a Levit line? I don't, I don't watch her briefings. I don't. I'm sure it's popped up on your social. I was just about to say I've seen clips that have gone viral and I scratch my head and I'm like, what is going on? And here's the thing. Look, I've said this many times and I'll say it here. Freedom of the press is so important. It's part of our democracy. You've got to respect the press. And while no, I can't think of any politician that likes the press. We do not like the press. Right. Because it. Why? Because because it's tough, right? They are supposed to hold us to account. And sometimes it's aggressive. and sometimes we don't like how they cover us, right? Sometimes nobody, right? But you respect the job.

You respect the job. Isn't that a peek behind the curtain into sort of a problem? Like, it would be one thing to respect the press and to not like the press means you don't like the accountability. No, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what I'm saying. No, no, no, I'm not saying that at all. But there's going to be, they're never going to cover

you well, right? Because, you know, sometimes you read a story, you're like, wait, why is this being said or why that? So you kind of have like this feeling of like, oh, no, the press doesn't like me or oh, no, the press this, depress that. But then you don't, you don't hate them. You don't despise them. You may not like how they cover you. I probably should restate that. You don't mean like how they cover you, but you don't disrespect them. And that's my whole thing because what is being televised in that room, the press briefing room, is not just to the country, but it's to the world. And if you are not showing some sort of like, okay, we're going to have a back and forth, you're not going to like me. I'm not going to like you, but we're going to respect each other, at least try to respect to each other.

And we're going to go back and forth. You're showing the world, world leaders, that, okay, democracy, this is democracy in action. This is the freedom of the press. And so that's what's important, what happens in that briefing room. because of the visual and the perception, like you were saying, of what you stand for and what you're trying to mean and what you're trying to push forward. And so that's what is hard to see in the clips that I've seen

with the current press secretary. How many your mama texts did you send to someone? I never said to your mom. I don't think I even said that to a friend. And who says that? I feel like that's something you say in third grade. Well, that's just wants to see. When you have your mama, Trump,

she wants to see Mike Trump. It's like they all do. They're all playing Trump. Yeah. It's like online trolling. It's just like what he does. And so they follow, they follow suit. What role do you see for yourself moving forward?

You know, I, that's a good question. I was hoping that with the book, I can start a conversation and find a voice that is helpful in what we're trying to do in this moment. One of the things that I want to do is I want to tell stories. So there are two women that I learned about while I was White House Press Secretary. I had never heard of them before. One of them is Alice Dunnigan and the other woman is Ethel Payne. They were the two black women, two black women who were the first black women to be part of the White House press corps.

And this was like 75 years ago. So can you imagine them being part of the boys club and, you know, trying to ask Eisenhower question and he's ignoring them? And so I want to tell stories like that. I want to lift up voices. that we had never heard of before, or we don't know, or maybe we heard a little bit about. And so these are stories that are personal to me. I recently got the rights to their books, and so I hopefully I can... Thank you. Hopefully I can figure out how to tell those stories.

So stuff like that, like telling, telling stories, hopefully having a voice that's helpful, especially I'm very focused on young people right now. We need them to be involved in politics, and I know they're... upset. I know they're upset with the Biden-Harris administration. I get it. I'm not disillusioned about that myself. But I do feel as if they have a role and a place. And that's why Mom Dani, I think, is really exciting and really important. And I hope they see themselves in that and get involved. Are you familiar with Chink from the Young Turks? You know what that is? I was watching. You're going to be mad that you don't know him.

I was watching the I know young Turks The young Turks Yeah I know that Jank and Anna They're hosted So I was watching Pierce Morgan

Yeah Because when you want to watch Like the Real Housewives Of political issues It's Pierce Morgan Yeah Well you've been on it

So you've been a real housewife I've been on the real housewives That's not I like the real housewives Which one were you on Which franchise? No I wasn't on the real house The Pierce Morgan

He's saying that's the real housewives before I was I love that. I would love to be with the ground dom. The two of you, the two of you should do it. The grand dom. I would love to be with the grand dom over in Potombe. I would love to be with them.

So he was on Pierce Morgan and it was a. The young church. He was out. And you brought him together with Katie Miller. Katie Miller, who is Stephen Miller's wife. Yeah. Who had one of the most disastrous television. I've ever seen before in my life.

Go watch it. With a panel. It's her, Jink, Jillian Michaels, Omar. They're all on the young turds together. She just made a complete fool of herself. Now. And she's a person of color, right? No.

She looks like she is, but I don't know. I don't want to speak on it, man. But she's Jewish. So I, oh, okay. Maybe. I mean she can't be a person of color. Shout to all of our people of color who are Jewish from all over the diaspora.

my Ethiopian Jews. But you brought them together because, and she was literally talking about getting him deported minutes before you brought them together. Brought them together because- We're getting who did the Turks? You brought Jink and Katie together. They were able to agree on something. And it was about the fact that they don't like the way you talk about your identity.

Okay. Jink thinks that talking about your identity, as a black, queer woman is playing into identity politics and something that you do to shield yourself from criticism. No, not at all. She kind of said the same thing in a different way. Yeah. I want you to maybe talk a little bit about why it's so important for you to talk about that.

I love that you said that because if anything, I get criticized for saying I'm a black queer woman. I don't get shielded from saying I'm a black queer woman. And if anything, it actually puts a target, more of a target on me when I say it. And I bring it up because there are communities out there who don't feel seen or who are scared or who are fearful. And I think I need to own it. And I've always been unapologetic about who I am. I will never, ever, ever run away from it.

And first of all, black, I mean, you see me and I'm a black woman. So I don't, you know what I mean? I don't have to say it. I mean, you see, I walk into a room. There goes a black. I mean, you know what I mean? Like, I don't even understand that I can't hide the fact that I'm a black woman, so why not own it?

And so I will never apologize for being in the body and the space and the communities that I occupy. And it's almost as if, no, you're going to acknowledge me because this is who I am. And I'm not going to hide it. And I'm going to put it in your face because this is who I am. Again, I actually get criticized for being a black queer woman. I get criticized for it. So why not own it? Right.

Why not live in that space and be like, I don't care? What do you say to the people that say that we're fighting this constant battle for our humanity? Everything that we do is DEI. I drive across the street. I was able to do it because of DEI. I wake up in the morning. It was a DEI awakening. I go to sleep at night.

I was able to sleep because of the day. DEI. These are DEI mics. I'm wearing D.I. Hat. Everything is DEI. There's nothing that I shoot the ball. The ball goes in the basket. Dei score. Everything we do is because of DEI. And they say that your job and what you were able to do, how you got to the White House was because not because you had done anything else, but because you are black. How did you get to be the White House press secretary. And first of all, I have to go back to the other thing, too, because it pisses me off that people who have not walked in my shoes, who have no idea who really I am as a person,

get to tell me how I get to identify myself or not. So it's like, I was like, you can't tell me how I get to identify myself. You can't tell me how I get to call myself. Like, screw you. Like, that's not okay. Like, that is not okay. You have no right to tell. anybody how they should identify themselves and how they see themselves in the world. Like,

you have not walked through my battles. You have not walked through my life. You don't even know my personal story. So that's how I really, that just, that just boils me up. So I had to say that. Look, picking a White House press secretary is a personal, personal thing that the president of the United States does. I have known Joe Biden since 2009. I have known him for a long time. He has watched me grow up. He has watched me become the person that I am today. And he actually asked me to be part of his press team back in 2019 when he was deciding to run. And I decided that I didn't want to be part of a presidential campaign because I had a little kid and I was trying to just focus on my life.

And so people don't know. It's like a personal decision. I didn't just pop up one day and he was like, oh, look at this person. Let me make her the White House press secretary. No, I've known him for a long. time and he would say to me, I like the way you speak for me. I like the way you present yourself for me. That's a cold line. I'm sorry, man. I just can't imagine, I like the way you speak for me. For me. That's crazy. Yeah. Because that's your job. That's the job. I just, I'm never,

Rachel, I don't start saying. I was going to say, don't think you could start. But that's the job. But that's the job. But that's the job. I get it. Of course. I But that's what I was doing. He's just going to start saying it. But that's a cold line. But that's the job. Okay. Donnie, I like that way to speak for me. So it's not like I showed up in, you know, January 2021 and he was like, oh, okay, this is what we're going to do. No, I've known him for a long time. Again, it's a personal decision, right? Barack Obama, the first person he picked as his press secretary was Robert Gibbs.

Why did he peeked Robert Gibbs? He'd known Robert Gibbs for a long time. They were close. They were friends. I mean, that's how it normally goes. And so I didn't like come out of nowhere. And Joe Biden was like, oh, I'm going to pick her. No, I've been working with him and have known him since 2009.

Oh, very fair. Don't start saying that. I don't speak for you. Oh, I see what's happening here. He's holding on to it. It's probably going to be in our intro now. Yeah. Who speaks for me?

I'm not sure when you decided to write this book what you anticipated people would say. But there's been praise and there's been criticism, of course, as comes with everything. Anything there's something different, there's going to be praise and criticism. Correct. Understood. What would you say to people who say, you know, not now, where we are right now in our life or this country, we don't need this book right now. A book that reflects on, and I know in the book, you obviously are talking about moving forward. But for people who are like, we don't need to hear about what happened in the last.

last administration, we need to figure out what's going on right now. For the people who think that it might be self-serving or opportunistic to write a book, what would you say to those people? I would say that I'm very worried about this moment. And what I talk about, yes, I talk about the past. And the reason why I talk about the past is because there's a story. My decision to become an independent is connected to the past, obviously. So I have to move. I have to start there in order to move it forward or else it doesn't make sense for people. And people can agree with me or not. That's not the point.

But I believe for me this book was important because if not now, then when? I believe the party needs to do more. They need to act like an opposition party because these are not normal times and you can't act as if it's business as usual. I believe that the system is broken. And so we have to fix it and figure out. I believe in these moments when we're under attack and it feels really low is a moment to reimagine the future and reimagine what this country could look like. But we need the right leaders to do that.

We need leaders who are going to have the heart and the moral compass and be brave about doing that. And sometimes you have to bring people along to get to a place where every, everybody feels like they're safe and protected and you're fighting for them. And that's what I believe and I hope that that's what people get from the book. And I hope they give it a chance. And I understand people are going to hate it. People are going to love it. People are going to hate that I'm the messenger.

That's fine. That's fine. But a lot of it too, and I'm actually saying, at least in the moment that we're in right now, I'm saying the quiet things out loud. A lot of the things I talk about are what people say around their kitchen table or what people are saying when they're hanging out with their friends, like what's going on and why are we not fighting more? Why is the party not fighting more? And so I'm also saying the quiet things out loud. What Rachel was talking about is the overall response to the book and the book tour, which

some of these headlines are brutal. Yeah. I know you've seen them. Disasters book tour. New York Times said the book tour that most authors wouldn't dream about MSNBC. Disasters tour. And then, of course, there was the New Yorker piece that just came out that just went everywhere with people feeling like it was just a total L for you. What do you think the response? What's your response to? Look, I think that a lot of it is coming from like a corner of the world, right? That's kind of repeating themselves, repeating themselves. And fine, that's what they're going to do. I can't really change that. There's nothing that I can do about that. I don't think it was disastrous.

I don't think. You think that the New Yorker interview went well? Oh, I don't think it went well. He was completely combative and we were going back and forth and it was not a, I'm not, that's not what I'm saying. We're talking about one interview and I know there's some, that's one interview and I know that there's some reporting, right? But I've done other interviews that have gone really well.

I've had other conversations that's gone really well. If you pick one or two, whatever you think about them, but I've had multiple interviews that people have gotten something out of it. And I've done events where people have gotten something out of it. And it goes back to what Rachel and I were saying. Like people are going to, people are going to, when you say something that has never been heard before or that's new, people are going to hate it and some people are going to love it. You're not, this is different. What I'm saying is out of the box.

Some people may say it's insane. Some people may say, oh, good for you. But, you know, I have come under criticism all the time. It is not unusual. And some people may not like, it's me saying it, right? A lot of it is because it's me saying it. But that's not my problem. Do you think that there's an expectation from people that the press secretary should be able to, former press secretary?

Yeah. Should be able to go back and forth with the guy from the New Yorker. And even if he is combative, is there an expectation of a media expertise that you should have? Do you think people hold you to a standard? They say, she shouldn't have a bad interview. She shouldn't have a bad interaction. She shouldn't have a bad spot because she literally was the person that was in front of the world doing media stuff. Also, we're all normal.

And that's one. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I've had multiple good interviews, right? And what I will say about that interview is it was combative. How was he combative with you? I mean, he was like cut me off and he wouldn't let me speak. And he should probably release the audio of the interview. You think if he released the audio of the interview, it would play different for people than reading it, maybe.

I think so. I mean, there were times where I was like, let me talk, let me talk, right? It was a pushback. And he literally had his own thinking, right, and his own perspective. Like, he went into it, not a, it wasn't an interview where, okay, I'm going to give you, you know, I don't agree with you or people don't agree with you or I want to hear what you have to say. It was combative. It was a combative. I mean, you read it. And it reads as a combative interview. It does. Would you like to call in to release the audio? I mean, no, it doesn't matter anywhere. I'm not even going to go down that room. But can I be honest? I would rather, what I don't want to see is you be on a podium.

I'd rather see you be more loose, maybe a little combative, you know, standing up for the things that you believe in what you're writing it. I would rather see that than see you perfectly crafted together. I think that that's part of the thing that people have is they question, are you going to be authentic when you're writing this book or are you the press secretary still? Are you telling your honest truths about your relationships with Joe Biden

and other people or are you you know? Yeah, I mean, but I say things in the book that are out of the norm, right? When you're criticizing the Democratic Party that's not stepping in line. That's being your, giving your authentic view, right?

I mean, like that's not the thing to do, right? I mean, I'm doing something that people are pissed off about. That's a part of it. And I tell my story of what it was like being White House Press Secretary. And so those are not, I'm not, you know, the book had the book has a lot of stuff that is like, oh, wow, she's telling this. Oh, wow, she's sharing that. And I think that's real. That's real. What's the party saying to that? Like, what has been the response to some of the Democratic leadership. I think it's, I think it's coming through some of these stories, right? I mean,

some of these stories are the Democratic leaders feeling and saying how they, what they think, right? The not now or you weren't great at your job anyway, right? I mean, those are, that's coming from the party leadership. That's coming from some of the colleagues that I worked with. They're, you know, they're, they're voiceless, but that's where that's coming from. Meaning like when I say voiceless, they don't sign their name to, to their, to their comments. But I don't care. Like, nobody's living in my head rent free. Like, no one is living in my head rent free. And I'm going to continue to speak and of course there were going to be bad stories. Of course. Of course. It's the press. We don't like them. Question. There is an annoyance that I have with the books that are coming out.

It has nothing to do with people's personal stories. I actually enjoy reading a lot about the goings on inside of the White House or the stuff that happened and everything. The timing of these books dropping. You're dropping. Kamala's dropping and then Joe Biden is dropping. When there is, as you know, historic

dysfunction. Snap benefits coming to an end. People being kidnapped off of our streets. Just random killings in the ocean, boats full of people and then trust us

their drug dealers. All kinds. of things. Is there a possibility and do you understand the criticism or the critique that while all of that is going on, it seems like some people from the Biden administration are talking about them themselves. Yeah. So I think political books are always going to be criticized. It doesn't matter when it falls, when it drops, which administration or they're always going to be politicized. That's the way political books go. I do agree with you that there's so much happening right now in the moment that's scary and that we should be focusing on and talking about. I do totally agree with you on that. And we have to figure out how do we elevate that more and how we talk about that more. And we try to do that in interviews. I do try to do that in interviews, but it's hard because you've written a book about this.

And so people want to focus on what you laid out in the book that was controversial. or different. But all political books are going to be criticized and ridiculed and looked over and, you know, poked at. I mean, that's just, it doesn't matter if it's four years ago, four years from now, whatever it is, they're just different. They just hit differently. There are a lot of them.

You are correct. I mean, this past two weeks, it's insane, the amount of books that are out there. Last question for me. I always think about how 20, 30 years from now are they going to look at this time? How are they going to write? What are they going to write about it? I don't know. It's hard.

It's hard. We're unprecedented. Yeah, right. We're unprecedented times. Yeah. There will be a movie. Who's playing you? Oh, my gosh.

I've not thought about that. When is the movie coming out? We're doing it right now? I may not even be in this movie. We're doing the movies in the next three years, especially with the books coming out. There's a movie. Yeah. Three years?

Three years from now. So now? Three years from now is Jamie Lawson. Who's Jamie Lawson? Perlene from Senors. Oh, great choice. Don't do this with me. That's why I do.

Oh. Three years from now. That's a good choice. That's a very good choice. I love that movie. Yeah. It was so good. Three years from now is it.

See, you're already casting in your head. You're really good about that. Who is Joe Biden? Three years from now, who is Joe Biden? And then Kamala? See, here's the thing about Joe and Kamala. You really could get any of, like, the older guys to play Joe. You could go get any of the older guys.

Okay. Kamala is more interesting. Who are you thinking? Kamala. Well, she has a diverse background, too. So you want to be respectful to that. So you can't, so the Kamala one is a little bit, I'd have to go into, I'd have to think about that a little bit more.

Kamala is a little bit more. Joe, I mean, I could have Jeff Bridges can play Joe. You're right. You're right. Yeah, and you could just put makeup on. Yeah. Yeah. Kamala, I have to think about because there's, there's not anyone that jumps to my head like right now.

The person that people, Jennifer Beals, do you remember Jennifer Beals? Yeah. Yeah. From flash dance? Yes, I've seen like that. But then, yeah. Did you know that? Yes, I did.

I'm not great with movies as well. Because I've seen her dress like her and I was like, oh wow, that's kind of crazy. Maybe that's a little, maybe we need to shade up just one shade. You know what I mean? Maybe. Maybe we send Jennifer Bills to Singapore for a whole summer. But then we have to find like a young Kamala too, because I'm assuming that it'll be her life story. Yeah.

Last question for me is some useful information for our audience. Oh, okay. All right. You're standing in front of the press corps. Oh, okay. The world. The world, right? Really.

You got to deal with, you know, Fox News and you got to deal with, I want to ask you actually one other question. Actually, before I get to the question about. about the advice. What's your opinion on the new media section? I don't know if you know this. So Karen Levin in her press secretary room, they have a new media section where it's like Tim Poole or Benny Johnson

or somebody like that. And it's literally a choreograph question to where they stand up and they go, they literally stand up and they go, President Trump is by far the greatest leader that we've ever seen before in our lifetime. and we're seeing historic, historic, historic achievement from the Trump administration.

Why do the Democrats suck so much and won't give Our King credit? Our King. And then she just goes, they go, thank you very much for that question. Let's talk about how bad the left is. What do you think about that type of, there seems to be, I don't know, diluting the power of that room. Yes. Well, that sounds like state TV.

That's literally like that sounds like, you know, might as well, North Korea, Russia. You know, that's what that sounds like. And that's unfortunate if that's what's going on. Because I think there is something to be said. The medium is changing. We were just talking about that moments ago and trying to include, you know, different voices in the journalistic world, right? Because they're now all these independent journalists.

You know, it's just changing. There's social media. And so I think there's something to trying to figure out, okay, how do you bring those voices in the briefing room? We tried to do that with regional reporters. We did that once a week and they came in. They beamed in virtually. But they weren't dear leader reporters. They were like real reporters that would ask specific questions that mattered to their region or state.

I think when you do something like that, what you just laid out, that's state TV. That's not democracy. That's not. That's lifting up what you want to be lifted up for, on behalf of. of the president to make him feel good, right? It's not, it does nothing to what the American people need to know and how reporters need to report back to the American people. So that, to me, that's state TV.

That's like dictatorship. Now through the question, there's somebody somewhere right now that either has problems speaking in front of crowds or being in that place behind that podium with that type of power undergirding you would be paralyzed to them. What are your tips for people on how to comport themselves in front of large audiences, how to talk when every single syllable that you say will be dissected?

What's your process? Yeah, I think for them it's like practice, practice, practice, right? Practice, get people to ask you questions, kind of visualize, you know, what the room is going to look like, what the experience might be. maybe do small doses of like talking to reporters or talking in front of people so that you get comfortable. But you got to practice. You got to like figure out, okay, how am I going to stand, how I'm going to use my hands, how I'm going to feel about being in front of an audience, and just really go deep into how you can make yourself better. And you have to learn, okay, all right, how, you know, how do I speak?

How do I need to better my speak? How do I need to better communicate? And it's a real evaluation of self and a real evaluation of presentation and just really just studying yourself, learning yourself, capture yourself on video and see what that looks like. But there's a lot of work to it. Like nobody, well, in the past, I don't know if I can speak for this current press secretary, but nobody goes to the podium without being prepared. You've got to be prepared.

And sometimes it's like you're standing in front of people that you trust who are who are just asking you the hardest questions and you're practicing and going back and forth with them. So it is, it takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of work. And if you put in the work, it'll be fine. The book is independent. I promise you guys, if you read the book, if you read the book, you'll have a good time. I'll be for real. Yeah.

You'll have a good book. And you'll be incited a little bit. Yeah. It's good. Good to incite people a little. bit. Good to trigger people a little bit to keep them on their toes. I mean, what's next? What's next?

Right from here? TV? TV? TV show? I don't know. You tell me. Maybe, I don't know. Newsmax?

News, what? Thank you for joining this. We really had a good time. Yeah, thank you. Thank you both. Thank you, man. Thank you, Rachel. This episode is brought you by WeatherTech.

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Services not available in all areas. Rachel, what are your thoughts on that? I thought it was a great interview. I will say I walked into the interview filling one way. And I came out of it with a better understanding. You know, I still feel like, you know, and I feel like we set this in the interview with her, right? The what, the not now with the books.

This is where we are. And as a society, this is what we want. But I will say I have a better understanding from after reading the book, from articles that I read, I wasn't quite sure. And I respect the fact with her coming in here and answering all the questions that we have, you know, unlimited.

time. Yeah. Yeah. Nothing off limits. I still, I don't know what everyone saw with President Biden when the cameras were. I don't, that's still tough for me to wrap my mind around. You know what it is? It's because I think she acknowledges that what we saw, we could never move past.

What I think she conflates is that she knew him for, like she said, she's known him as 2009. She's known him for so many years. She's been close to him. She's seen him in so many situations that we haven't. that she's doing kind of like a, well, that compared to all the other times, it doesn't mean that that's the way that he is. I'm like comparing it to everything else,

and he's really more this person than I've seen him be what you saw on the stage. And that's a problem. That's what I think is what happens. She's too close. By the way, I would just like to point out that that DEI joke that I made was made on Friday of last week, and you might have heard President Obama say the joke, but that I did not have

I did not I'm not biting off Obama now He did say it first guys He did say it first We'll give it to you We left it in although I wanted to take it It's very Obama

You know He's better than me He's better It's a good joke Grand Platner Running for Senate from Maine Mm-hmm Okay

You into him? I'm not into him Okay Why Graham Plattener has gone a bunch of different places. Went to Pod Save. My beloved breaking points.

I saw him on there. But I have yet to see Graham Platner address his anti-blackness with black people. And the more interviews I see him do, the more sit-downs I see him do, the more it annoys me that he's not doing this.

Can I ask a question? I don't know of him saying anything anti-black other than the tip thing. So what? No, no, no, no. You said anti-blackness. Do you think a Nazi tattoo is anti-black? Um, not directly. I think it's anti-Semitic. I think it's, well, okay, okay, sure, but I just don't look. When I think of, when I think of that particularly, I think of more anti-Semitism than I think of anti-black. You're right. Obviously. Yeah. Um, Aryan nation. You get it. They get it. I get it. But I think the audience would say, what else? I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm

truly wondering, has he said anything specifically? We know that that is one thing that he says. He absolutely should be doing black media. I agree with you. But you made a statement. I'm asking a question, because I am not aware. What else has he done that's anti-black? Before we throw that out there. I would say the tipping thing

is one thing. Having a Nazi tattoo is another thing. But let's put those things in a bucket, right? On glance, I see Grand Platiner. like Grand Platon.

The politics is something that I align with. The entire image is something that I align with. But I will say something. The centrist Democrats, the ones that we so often criticize, they do have to exist connected to black people in a very specific way. Because there is an understanding

of the voting block that black Americans, particularly black women, make up for them. So there's a direct way that they have to at least in some way show up for black people. Now, I'm not saying in any way, guys, before you get that the Democrats have been like some type of fight. I'm not saying that at all, okay? What I'm telling you is that if there is a Democrat who has said obviously anti-black things, then they are going to have to deal with the CBC. They're going to have to deal with the black intelligentsia that exists inside of that wing of the Democratic Party in a very direct way.

Sometimes on the left, because there is a shredding of identity politics, I mean the left left, not the centrist's left. There's a shredding of identity politics that exists there that seeks to establish a cohort of where, working people and a diverse coalition, they want to get away from identity politics and they want to focus on other things and things that they believe, help all people. There's sometimes in that is a betrayal to me of the actuality of black existence in America.

I don't know that it's a purposeful betrayal, but maybe it is. Sometimes there is talk and there is action to me that is, that seeks to overlook some of the ways that black people need to feel safe, some of the ways that black people need to deal in order to be at the political table with you. Some things that we need, right? And I see this happening with Grand Platner. See it happening.

See it happening with him. I see him getting a soft bed to land on for some things that are concerning. I agree with that. And I'm not saying that people need to kick his fucking nuts in. But what I'm saying is, is if we are going to be in coalition with him, then what is the point of him not talking to black people? He should. Like, I see him explaining what he meant with the tipping thing or the tattoo to white people.

I see him explaining that to him, to them. But the fact that that doesn't, seem to be, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they're getting around to it. But the fact that there doesn't even seem to be the need to speak to black people about that. The fact

that there's not the will to do it, it's starting to get on my fucking nerves. Like, it's starting to bother me. Like, the more interviews I see him doing where I see him talking to people, I see the relevant questions being asked, I see, the breaking points was,

you know, I love the show. Breaking Points was particularly good in that they went into his career as a military contractor. It's like everybody's trying to make sure he's not the next fetterman and all of that stuff. Everybody's trying to make sure that they don't put him in a position where he becomes a senator from the state of Maine

and then all of a sudden a year and a half we're like, what the fuck happened? All of that's cool. All of that's cool. But there are things that we have to do even within coalitions to make sure that we can trust one another. And part of that comes.

when there is crisis. And him having a situation, a crisis, a scandal, whatever you want to call it, where he's made anti-black, anti-Jewish, anti-American statements to me and done things like that with the tattoo, all the explanations being what they are, the gesture,

the move of actually being in conversation with somebody black to have that talk is meaningful. And the fact that is not happening is also meaningful, at least from what I've seen. I agree with you. And so it's like, to me,

it almost means more that you don't do it. So that also feeds into your anti-blackness. That's the question I have. It's like, okay, cool. The tipping situation, you had that conversation with the Pawsave of America, about it. Like, don't you need to go had that conversation at the breakfast club?

Don't you need to go have that conversation with, like, don't you need to go have that conversation somewhere where black people watch and trust the platform? Do you feel like, in this, I'm playing into you saying anti-black, do you feel like the reason that you also feel like he's anti-black is because maybe he is not playing into having those conversations with black people

because black people aren't as represented in the state of Maine? I mean, maybe. Because we talked about the Madden thing. but at the same time he's going to be a senator. Correct. And he's trying to become a senator. So he has his constituents in Maine to consider

but also there are going to be things that he's going to be voting on. Yeah, yep, yep, yep, yep. And pushing forward that are going to affect black people all over the country. And particularly black people that consider themselves to be a little bit left of center. I am the center of the left, left.

So I am left of the Democrats, but I am not, because I know some people that are, like, I know some people that hit me up and their ideas, they on the capital L left, their ideas, yeah, I'm like, yo man, oh, you know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? Like I know the people, right? And I feel like I'm being pulled towards them every single day. What do you think I am? you're a good old fashioned Texas Democrat man

you're a good old fashioned Texas Democrat but we have very similar we're joking but I'm saying in this situation here stop the bullshit and get it done I'll agree just just curious about you know yeah stop the bullshit and getting done look I get everybody is not that important

all that just like at this point it's starting to get annoying so I see as I see him popping up I'm like go talk to somebody we're going to go but I want to play something here I have to have to do it I don't have to be where I'm at till 1230 I got playing time I want to play something here

and let me tell you why I'm playing this I'm about to play and you guys just letting you know the podcast right now is effectively over what you're going to hear now is the account of a man who is talking on a stage about something that he went through uh Moth Stories is

a group or organization where people get up there and they tell personal stories. Okay. They posted something on their Instagram and it was the account of a comedian named Anthony Griffith. And I had never heard of him. Uh-huh. I haven't either.

And I saw him talking about something. I don't know why I clicked on the video, but I saw him talking about something very personal that happened to him or something that he went through, a time in his life. It's very personal. It happened to him when he first came out to L.A. from Chicago

to be a comedian. And he got his big break. And that big break was being on the Tonight Show. And there was something that was going on in his life at the time. He was dealing with a cancer diagnosis that his daughter had, two-year-old daughter. This seven or so minutes It's not concise.

But this seven or so minutes encompasses everything that I think, everything that's wrapped up into my view of wanting people to be happy and healthy and wanting to help people. In this is a talk about

health care and what it costs Americans. In this is a talk about manhood, masculinity, and what it means to feel the need to show up at times when you're completely broken. Blackness is talked about here and how you approach therapy. But more than any of that,

just the brutality of humanity and what I care about and what I think that we should all care about in terms of the way that we show up for each other, I have, and I've heard speeches from Obama, speeches from Martin Luther King Jr. I don't know that I've ever been as moved as what I was when,

I watch this. Donnie, play it for Rachel right now. Charles Dickens, classic tale of two cities, starts off with the phrase, it was the best of times, and it was the worst of times. In 1990, I moved from Chicago with my family to L.A. to seek my fame and fortune, and a couple of weeks of being there, I got two important phone calls. One was from the talent coordinator for the Tonight Show, offer me to have a spot as a comedian on tonight's show. And the second call was that my daughter's doctor had called up to say that her cancer had resurfaced.

A year prior, she was diagnosed with cancer, and we fought it, and it went into remission, and now it was back. And for that next year, my life was pretty surreal. because it's like two different personalities. During the day, in order to keep my daughter at home with me, I would have to learn CPR and how to work a heart monitor and administer medicine and all these technical terms and take her back and forth, excuse me, to get her platelets and blood and check upon her.

And at night, I would go from club to club with the talent coordinator, and I would work on my set. and try to perfect it. And I would meet veterans like George Wallace and Seinfeld and Roseanne. And I thought that everything was great because we had beat the cancer before we could beat it again. And this is the first time that I was going to be in front of millions of people on the Tonight Show. And the first time on the Tonight Show, I was extremely nervous. All I could think about while I was backstage being introduced was don't mess up.

Just don't mess up, whatever you do. Don't mess up. And the curtains open, and there's 600 people, and the cameras, and Johnny's over there, and the band is over there. And I don't know what I said for the next six minutes, but I get six applause breaks. And the great part of that night was that I was going to my car, and I met Johnny, who was going to his car. And it was just a private moment between us and the parking lot of him saying,

you were very funny. You were extremely funny. Start working on your second tonight show because I want you back. By the time I get the official call for my second tonight show, my daughter, my daughter was admitted to the hospital.

If you don't know about cancer, when it comes back, it comes back hard. It's like beating up a gangbanger for the first time and then it's coming back and he's coming back meaner. and stronger and he's coming with his friends. So in order to compensate for that, you have to raise the chemo and you have to raise the medicine

and you have to raise the radiation, which is difficult for an adult, but she was only two. So she's bald, which she doesn't mind because every kid in the ward is bald. And she thinks this is a part of life. And she can't keep her food down. and you're not prepared for this. There's no books.

There's no home at class to teach you how to deal with this. And you can't go to a therapist because in the black world, a therapist is taboo as reserved for rich white people. So you're trying to figure it out. What did I do? maybe something that I did, maybe something my wife did, maybe my doctor diagnosed erroneously something. But at night I still have to be a comic.

I have to work on a tonight show because that's what I'm going to do. I'm a clown. I'm a clown whose medical bills are raising, who's one step for being evicted, who's one step for getting his car, repose and I have to come out and make you laugh because no one wants to hear the clown in pain because that's not funny. And my humor is becoming dark and it's biting and it's becoming hateful.

And the talent coordinator is seeing that there's a problem because the NBC is all about nice and just everything is going to be okay. and we're starting to buck horns because he wants everything light and I want to be honest until life and I'm hurting and I want everybody else to hurt because somebody is to blame for this.

So I bucked up and I suppress my anger and I form and develop a nice cute routine for the second tonight show and I get applause breaks and I get asked to come back for a third time and I'm perfecting my third set and the doctor asked me to come in

and I know something's wrong because even the doctor is crying and doctors don't cry and he said that we've done oh we can't there's nothing else for us to do and I said how much time does she have And he said, at the most, six weeks. And I should plan for that. And I'm thinking, how do I plan for that?

I haven't planned to buy her her first bicycle. I haven't planned to walk her to school. I haven't planned to take pictures of her on her prom. I haven't planned to walk her down the aisle to get married. How am I going to plan to buy her a dress? to be buried in. And I'm trying to keep it together. Because I'm the man, and I'm the man of the house,

and I don't want to cry when it's coming. And I'm trying to tell my way, tell myself, Tony, I'm trying to beg the world. Just give me chance. Just give me chance. Just let me take a breath. Just stop just for a minute. I want to call my parents and tell them what do I do.

I don't know what to do. I'm a grown man, and I don't know what to do. I'm a grown man. to do. And a man of voice in me comes up like Densdale from training day. Man up, nigga! You think you're the only one losing kids today? 25 kids walked in here with cancer, only five walking out. This ain't no sitcom. They don't wrap up all nice and tidy in 30 minutes. This is life. Welcome to the real world. And he was right. So I bucked up because that's what I'm supposed to do. And on my third tonight show,

by that time my daughter died, and I had six applause breaks that night. No one knew I was mourning. No one knew that I could care less about the tonight show or Johnny Carson. In 1990, I had three appearances with the legendary Johnny Carson and the total. of 14 applause breaks. And I would have given it all if I could just have one more day sharing a bag of french fries with my daughter.

It was the best of times. It was the worst of times. Thank you. What was that for? What was the stories? Why was he telling that story? He was telling the story. It was his testimony.

No, I'm saying what was the... I mean, I'm not sure this took place and obviously, I'm not sure when exactly he told that story, but I saw it on the Moth stories. It's okay to cry everybody. It's very, you know, but when we are trying to ask each other to just consider what people are going through, that is what we're asking for.

If you are cast it as a bleeding heart or as somebody who, whatever, that, not as grand or as, but that's humanity. And just try if you can, to consider the other person. Beautifully sad. Take your thing caps off. Do not stop learning.

I'm Van Lathen Jr. I'm Rachel Lynn Lansing. Bye guys. You fucked up your makeup. I don't, do I have makeup on? Oh, you're not even wearing it. Oh, shit. Fresh face.

I mean, mascara. I don't have, like, makeup on. Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile, the message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just $15. of course if you enjoy overpaying no judgments but that's weird okay one judgment anyway give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first three months only then full price plan options available taxes and fees extra see full terms at mintmobile.com