Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - A Conversation on Transgender Athletics With Activist Raquel Willis

Episode Date: March 22, 2022

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay discuss the controversy surrounding Lia Thomas’s achievement to become the first openly transgender athlete to win a Division I championship (18:27), before welcoming writer Raquel Willis to share her perspective as a trans activist (38:17). Plus, Ketanji Brown Jackson’s confirmation hearing kicks off (1:05:56) and Maury finally gets to retire (1:20:07). Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Raquel Willis Producers: Trudy Joseph and Donnie Beacham Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Higher learning is on. It is I, Van Lathen, Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay, reporting from the Pepto Room. For sure, from the Peptor room. I see it right there. See the Peptor.

Are those real flowers right there? Nah. They're not. They're fake. Yeah, they're fake. Remember the plant that I bought, Oscar, remember him? Oh my God. What happened to Oscar?

So Oscar was bringing too many bugs into the house, so I had to get rid of Oscar and put him outside. That should not be happening. What if y'all got going on there? Well, no, Oscar was like having bugs come in and they were getting on Oscar. So I put Oscar outside. Oscar had a very rough patch, but I'm bringing them back now. Oscar is green, green, green. Wait, he's never left?

Well, he's outside. Oh. And so we can get some sun out there. But Oscar's like, at first, I'm like, I'm going to lie. Out of sight, out of Oscar mine. And then it was like, you know, it's a living thing. So you got to take care of it. I would let that happen to Bozeman.

So I take care of Oscar. Not the same, not even close to the same thing. Okay, one has a soul. Now, question. God damn. I hate, I'm not a good plant person. And mind you, now I'm in a place where there's a bunch of them. But question, did you get Oscar before or after you won an,

Oscar. Oh, it was before. So we manifested this. We manifested. Okay. Okay. I totally forgot about Oscar. That's why you got to keep him alive.

You know what I mean? I keep Oscar alive. Okay. He's not hope. Yeah. You know what I mean? We're not keeping hope alive here. Yeah, I keep Oscar alive.

I keep Oscar alive. What did you do this weekend? You know, people have said that this is their favorite part of the podcast, the beginning banter of the podcast. But you know what? I appreciate that. And I'm glad that thought warriors like it because I feel like we used to do this in the beginning. And then we kind of lost our way as people seem to do on the journey of life.

And now we've come back to, you know, what's us? Yeah. But what I do this weekend? I had a crazy weekend. What did you do? What's a crazy weekend? Well, busy. I moved.

And then as soon as I moved, I had to leave the next day, go to Miami on a Saturday. So moved on a Friday, went to Miami on a Saturday. landed at almost midnight, worked all day, Sunday in Miami, and then flew back, and then flew back Sunday night and then had a 7.30 a.m. live hit that I had to be ready for. I'm tired, Charles. Rache, Jesus Christ, Rach. But can I say that, like, this is one of my most favorite parts of the day? Like, I look forward to coming on here and doing this. Like, this, this keeps me saying, maybe not Van in particular, but this, this. This. This. This. This. This. This. Space keeps me saying.

Rache, do me a favor. Try lazy. Just try it. Just try it. I got a mortgage now. I got a mortgage now. You can't say no to anything. I can't say no to anything.

It's very true. It's very true. What did I do this weekend? Ooh, I got back on my super eating healthy grind. Super ridiculously healthy. You know what? Do you cook or do you do a meal plan? I cook.

Brian has this great meal plan. They deliver it like twice a week and he like sticks to it three meals a day. You should look, you should hit him up about it. I want to be like Brian. Just trying to help you with you either. Not saying you got to be like Brian. It's tough to cook all the time. I don't need that.

You know, anybody got time for that? I don't need that as my metric. I said the food service. No, man. You said, you said, hey, you have that little muscle

on the side of your waist? No, I don't need that as my metric. I don't want to be like Brian. You know what? What? You tell Brian to be like me. How about that?

You tell Brian. You tell Brian, you know what? I'm not, because it's just as impressive, right? Me getting like Brian would be just as impressive

as Brian getting it like me. That's going to be so funny. That's going to be so funny. I'll tell him. I'll tell them tonight. Me and Brian should just switch places. I wonder who could get there faster. I wonder if Brian could get to like $2.80 faster.

Or if I could get to, because I've been Brian, but Brian's never been me. See, that's the difference. That's the difference. So you might have just answered it. I haven't been that lean. I've been lean as fuck. But, you know, it's different.

It's different. I just hung around. I hung around. I ate right. I lost, from Thursday to Monday, I lost six pounds. Jeez, good job. Yeah, I'm doing my thing.

I don't give a fuck anymore. It's happening. I can't tell you. I have a deal with this clothing line, actively black. Everybody go look up actively black. I'm going to start like documenting, documenting my journey. Yeah. So we're in Oscar mode here, right?

The road to the Oscars. Oscars is Sunday. Right. Can't believe it's been a year, Van. It's been a year. It's been a year. I mean, Oscars is later last year, but it's been a year. Wow.

It's been a year. Y'all, remember when he tried to be like, I don't really care if I win, you know? And then capture him crying, holding the... I cry. As you should have, it's huge. Anyways, so I'm watching movies leading up to the Oscars. Have you seen all the best picture, best... Yes.

Okay, I have not. I watched Coda. Jesus Christ. I can't even talk about it without getting emotional. Yeah, it's a lot. And if you guys have not seen Coda, please go see. And I say emotion because it's just such a beautiful movie about family and love and sacrifice and growth and just hope. I just love it so much.

I was on the plane. And man, I started off with just the tears. And next thing I knew like my body because I was trying to like hold it in. And I was like, oh, oh. Rachel. Flight of 10. It goes, are you okay? What about the part where she's seeing?

Spoiler alert. And her. Okay. That's the first time I cried. That's the first time I cried. It was so fucking nuts. Spoiler alert. We're going to talk about it.

By the way. I didn't. I'm not going to, I'm not going to ruin it. There was three times. Like and then like and she's, it's just so tough. Like Kalika will sometimes watch a sad movie and it'll

like ruin her. Like the day is shot. What's this? I got to talk to her about. Like the day is shot. And like I come in and like I come back from somewhere and she's watching Coda and she's into it. And I'm like, fuck it. This is this Saturday's nuked.

She's in a sad. Whatever Cota triggers is like is sad. Then I have to watch it, of course, because, you know, Oscar time. It's a great movie. Great movie. Shout to Marley Matlin. Who's had a great movie. Oh, gosh.

There are three. The moment you're talking about the concert, the moment where he's listening to her sing with his hands. Uh-huh. Touching her. Because he. Yes. Yes. And then when she, during her audition. Yeah. Stuff.

Like, like, oh. That was speaking on a play. Cota's so good. Oh, gosh, y'all please. It has to win best picture. It really does. Oh, it'll win. It's just, I watch that.

I mean, the power of dog is right there too. Okay. Let's, well, we don't have it. Next time, we can talk on Thursday. We can talk about a Friday. We can talk about what we think, what we think will win. We can do that. Because I don't have the list in front of me.

Right. Power of dog is right there too. A lot of people are saying power to dog. But yeah. Can't wait for the exception speech. Yeah. The power to dog, Jane Campions up there. She's like, I know what it's like to work really, really hard to win an Academy Award.

Not like those guys from Moonlight. They basically want that's a Jane Campion. Why wait? Jane Champion's cool. she just had a white woman moment that's that's what you have to call it that's exactly what it was she had a white woman moment white people have white moments

what's the biggest white moment you feel like have you ever had like a oh sorry oh I wonder what kind of soup he's eating right I wonder what his favorite soup is shut up he's somewhere right now he can't afford

he's probably eating well yes what's your mom moment. What's your moment? What's my? Oh, I know a moment. Well, I worked at TMZ, so there were so many moments. There were so many moments where people, oh, but like the one moment, I told you guys about this, the moment where Harvey put the poll on the website where he asked whether or not black people should be called African Americans or niggas. That was a real poll

that went up on T.MZ's website. I'm going to tell the story. We got Shug Knight out. They asked Shug Knight, African-American and niggas. I don't know why. It was because of that guy, Am Sandler's friend, had said it.

And then he had said Shug Nite and let him say it. He's like, to me, nigger is more of a thing to African-American. Harvey then took it and put it on the site should black people be called African-Americans or niggas.

I remember I got a call. I'm like, yo. Niggas was like, what the fuck, man? What's going on up there? I was off work. I didn't ever see it. Oh, so they did it on your day off?

Well, it's not like they did it on my day off. It's not like they were, but like I was off. You know what I mean? And I wasn't in the newsroom at that time. So by the time I saw it was on the site and I came back in, I'm like, yeah, guys, obviously this is a fucking no-no. What the fuck? Crazy. That's definitely your moment.

Did they take it down after? No. It lived. It lived on the site. It might still be up. So what they would do is... What was the percentage? I gotta go.

What was that percentage, man? Oh my God. It might still be up. No, it's not. No, it's not. It can't be. It might still be up. Well, I don't know if it's like, hold on.

Let me see. It just can't. TMZ, African American or niggas. Hold on for a second. TMZ African Americans or niggas. Hold on. Let me see what comes up. It just can't.

Poll. TMZ, should black people be called niggas are African Americans? News1.com. TMZ should ignite inspired poll. This is December 17, 2013. This is literally, I'm literally there for like a year and a half.

TMZ asked if black people should be called dead word African American. Think about how wild this is. What the fuck? See the poll results below. you like oh so the video they put it on private the poll

the post has about 370 comments and most of them are as racist ignorant as one would expect so I you can't see it anymore because I guess it's not on the site anymore but it lives on because obviously it got covered it got covered TMZ

damn nuts oh here it is no wait what's the poll oh no they took the poll out they took the poll out probably because of what was winning Shug Knight is offended when people call him

African American because he's not African On the other hand He doesn't have a problem with the word Nigger Shook says it's offensive to label All Black people African American Blah Blah Blah who gives a fuck At first his theory sounds a little shopping

But maybe he has a point But maybe he has a point I can't wait till my book comes out I'm sorry read. It's a TMG chapter. So is this, is this, oh, oh, wait, there's a TMZ chapter. Do you think you're going to make people upset? No, because I was very democratic. Did legal have to check with TMZ? They had to. They had to check. Legal had check with The Bachelor. You didn't have to talk to an attorney about certain things in your book? I did. Maybe we'll be sued, but they'll have to sue his shit,

not me. Maybe we'll be sued. But like, this is, uh, it's just, But even that, though, think about this. And this is Uncle Tom stepping, fetching, bad, Lathan. Even that, though, I took that up as, ah, they white. They don't, you know, they just need somebody. Would something like that happen? Here's the thing. Something like that would happen.

And I would think this is the more reason that I should stick around. I get, I totally understand that. You think if I leave, first of all, you think what was happening before I got there. And if I leave, what will happen? I get that. Right. I get that. This is the more reason I should stick around.

And Nina had been there before me. And Nina left literally within the first six months I was at Team. Oh, I didn't realize it was that soon. Yeah. Like I didn't work with Nina for maybe about half a year, not even a year. I remember when Nina left, I was like, oh, shit. But I was like, why would she leave? I was like, why would she leave?

And think about it. The amazing, glorious great Nina Parker, a mogul. She's great. She's great. Nina Parker, a mogul, right? It's been 11 years or something like that, 10 years almost, maybe more since she left TMZ. She's been just got to glow up doing her the whole thing since she left. It's tough.

It's a tough situation. But that was the biggest, I guess, white woman, like white woman. Did they replace you with another black person? Not really, but like they like, there was people already there. You know, that were coming up. Because I used to say that I was used to be like, y'all want me to stop talking about stuff. Just bring in another black person. Another digger.

And like, that's literally like they don't need me. They have another black person in there. I mean, I don't want to be there. Who is the black person that they brought in? Tasha? Michelle. Like, Michelle, you know, I left that podcast. Now Michelle's the new host of the podcast.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I love Michelle. Oh, we want people to win. We want people to win. Oh, okay. my gosh, I love Michelle. Like, I really, really do. Michelle's great. You don't like Tasha, though. That's not true. You don't like her. We all know it to be true. You know, but Tachia

not black. So they couldn't have recorded, you know. She's, uh, did she tell you that? It's what was implied. Very controversial interview. I could have gone a lot harder. That actually was a very controversial interview and people, people were upset with some of the questions we asked, which I thought we were extremely nice. extremely nice. This is what I'll say before we move on to another incredibly controversial topic. I want people to understand about that interview.

Let's do what we know we should do. We should have a segment. I haven't suggested a new segment in a long time. I already know what you're going to say. What segment do you think we should do? You're going to say where we go back and redo and redo interviews. We do redo interviews like a higher learning rewind where we go back and look at something that we already covered and pick apart.

I like it. Yeah, and see if we'd have covered it the same way, and just go back and look at some of the moments like watershed moments in the pocket. It's a higher learning rewind. I like it. And listen, thought warriors, put out what some of your favorite interviews are and we'll, other than Michael Rappaport. Right.

But no, I think that you would do some things differently, maybe, in that interview. So that would actually be a good one. So if I was just thinking about it right now, and I got to say this, where I'm from, black people are not trusting of black people who other themselves. I'll just be honest with you. Okay. If we all sitting in the bullpen, not bullpen, because I don't want to say that we all going to jail. If we all sit down on a bench, we all sit down somewhere.

And you look like you look, I look like I look. Tation looks like Tatia looks. We all look around. And we all accept that we're all black. And then for some reason you go, wait a minute, I'm not black. I'm this, we right or wrong are inherently distrustful of like, why I don't want to be a nigger? Yeah, absolutely. Like, excuse me, not a nigger.

I'm sorry. Why don't you want to be a black person? Like, why don't want to be one of it? Like, what is it? What is it? Like, do you, are you looking to be as less black as you can? Do you feel like that's going to get you something? And, you know, it's not fair to people like.

Tasha, but it's just a kind of a thing. Maybe you need to do better. Who knows? No, it's a real question. And we should ask, we should ask, come back, come back after we have conversation. Tasia, come back. Tasia, come back. Tasia, Tasha, come back. Tasia, finish delivering the soup to soup kitchen.

Because I'm sure he has a different, could you imagine if like a different bachelor contested every day delivered him the soup? Stop, get off it. But you know what? If we have her back, maybe we should have, Camille on as well. Yeah, we should have Camel. Camille is...

We should have them both. We should have them both on. We should have a... Because then she's got somebody like more... It would be like us and them. You know it's funny? This is a fucking fantastic idea. Like, she would never do this. But this is, this is a fantastic idea that we should, we should litigate the Camille,

the Camille being black thing. We should have a back on. I know the higher learning audience. They're going to ask for D1 to come back on. They're going to want us to take a sort of a different tone right there. Okay. On the other side is break, the big deal. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling?

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Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus. Offered by Fandul prediction markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 plus.

Bonus is non-withdrawable and expires seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer. terms. Okay, Leah Thomas has become the first transgender woman to win an NCAA championship. I'm sure you guys heard about this. She absolutely dominated. She took control of the final 100 yards, 500 yard freestyle to make history Thursday as the first transgender woman to win an NCAA swimming

championship. Okay. Leah Thomas started her career at Penn. as a male swimmer. Or should I say she had not transitioned yet to being a woman? Right. Okay. She transitioned. I think it was maybe like a year or a half ago. She was still identifying.

She was still a member of the men's swim team. And she was in the 400s in terms of, where she was in terms of being in the NCAA swim. That's where she was ranked. Now, she's the best. She's the best because she reclassified. She joined the women's swim team at Penn after she came out

and she has been taking hormone therapy, I think, for around a year, a year and a half. She's met the NCAA requirements for her to be able to swim. Now, a lot of people are looking at this and saying that this is absolutely unfair.

That Leah Thomas has had a biological and physical advantage over the rest of these women, and this should not have happened. I'm sure you're open to this story. Rachel, what do you think? It's hard, isn't it? It's tough. It's tough because my initial reaction before I knew that when Leo was competing on the men's team that she was ranked 400 to 300 200 200 I've heard I've heard all those numbers but

not top 10 not top 100 um and then I learned later that when she um transition she was at the top um but I didn't know that at first so officially originally when I heard it I thought okay like if if she's competing within the NCAA rules then what's the big deal, right? Like, she's a woman, she's competing on the woman's team. That seems fair to me. Then I learned about the ranking. Then I learned about the difference.

Then I started listening to other athletes who are in competition with Leah speak out. Then I heard from other female athletes, even outside of the sport. And so I'm in this place. And the reason I hesitate is because I am not a part of the community, the LGBTQ plus community. and I'm not a collegiate athlete, never was one. So I'm not directly impacted by it. So it's hard to have an opinion when I don't feel like I can really speak on it. But I have to say, if I'm just looking at it, it doesn't seem fair.

And it's not that it doesn't seem fair because of what her ranking was when she was on the men's team versus now. it doesn't seem fair because there doesn't seem to be a rule that can apply to make it fair for everyone who's competing in this sport. That's why that's more so. I don't see the NCAA coming up with a rule that makes everyone who's competing feel comfortable. And that's what I struggle with. You can't have a blanket rule and you can't observe people on a case-by-case basis. That doesn't seem fair either. treating each person like they're an experiment and I got to, you know, I got to monitor you

and you got to be testing all the time and doing this. That doesn't seem fair either to the trans man or trans woman. So I'm not going to say as far as saying that, you know, like they should not be able to compete in sports. I would never say that. But when it comes to this case, specifically, it doesn't seem like the rules match what's happening with Leah Thomas. And it's specifically when you pull out things like the other athletes who were knocked out and did not make the team. Did not make the finals? Did not make the big cut? Because Leah did.

It does seem as if there is a certain unfair advantage. And it just doesn't seem like the science has caught up with the rules. So the last thing you said is probably the, to me, it's not fair, you know? And I say that as compassionately as I can say it. I would and I think the way that it will become fair is that if we continue to have conversations about what is fair and I think that is where we need to be right now. Leah doesn't have anything to be ashamed of. No. She adhered to the rules the way the rules are.

Exactly. She doesn't have anything to be ashamed of. It would be gut-riching if you were one of the other ladies who feels like she got an unfair advantage. So let's listen to some people on this. Michael Phelps, he knows a little bit something about swimming. He was on, not too long ago, and he spoke out on the topic. I mean, look, like, I'll say, you know, I can talk from a standpoint of doping. You know, I don't think I've competed in a clean field in my entire career.

So, you know, I think this leads back to the organizing committees again. Because it has to be a level playing field. I think that's something that we all need. Because that's what sports are. And for me, I don't know where this is going to go. I don't know what's going to happen. I believe that we all should feel comfortable with who we are in our own skin. But I think sports should all be played at an even playing field.

I don't know what that looks like in the future. But it's it's hard. Huh. Okay. So interesting that that's Michael Phelps. Yale transgender swimmer Isaac Hinnick, who actually beat Leah Thomas in January, recently spoke about the controversy and offered the other side of the argument. Check it out. Things that I always come back to is an athlete like Michael Phelps, who we can all point to and say, yeah, he has twice the long capacity of any one of his competitors, but no one was upset. or, you know, calling it unfair.

If you're going to point to those things, then your conclusion has to be, well, yeah, they were built to do sport, you know, or they were built to swim. It's not about puberty because anyone can go through any sort of hormonal change and still not be a great athlete because there is just so much more to great athletes than hormones. All right. Martina Navratilova, who obviously Martina Navratilova, Navratilova. Martina Navratilova

I could say her name in the past Martina Navratilova awaited on it and was absolutely direct says that Leah should not be able to compete and this is completely unfair Well it's not about excluding transgender women from winning ever

but it is about not allowing them to win when they were not anymore near winning as men The solution perhaps for now is to swim in a lane You can compete, but you don't get the medal because the rules are not correct. But right now, the rules are what they are. Maybe put an asterisk there. If she starts breaking records left and right, Leah, goes to the Olympics, because she's

hitting her prime now physically. And in the future, maybe it should be an open category for everybody and then biological females. So let's litigate this real quick. um Isaac says that in this particular situation that certain athletes have certain advantages

and he pointed to the fact that Michael Phelps has an advantage because of increased lung capacity we all know that to be true within sports the playing field

is not equal it's level and there are two different things that's the equal playing field would be everybody is 5 foot 10 195 pounds and does this and let's see who has that's not it is it's a level playing field meaning we all qualify under the same thing for example uh boxing they try to level the playing field in boxing as much as they can by having weight classes you would not have a heavy weight which i am boxing against a 147 pounder you wouldn't have that right

Now, within the 170, 147-pound division, there are, of course, differences in talent, differences in reflexes, differences in stamina, the ability to take a punch, all of those things, right? The question is, does being born male, having the chromosome, whatever it is, make it completely out of the question after, because I guess I was wrong, I misspoke earlier. Leah had been transitioning since 29. She began her transition to 2019, so it's a little over, a little over two years. Is that too much of an advantage in order to compete with women? Wait, is what too much? Is this being born biologically male?

Is that too big of an advantage to be able to compete against other women? I'm going to be honest with you here. Okay. In my opinion, this is not fair. I don't really feel like it's hyper-controversial that it isn't fair. I think it brings up a lot of questions. It brings up the questions that we have in terms of the differences between men and women's sports in and of themselves. You know what I mean?

You know, if you compare men and women sports across the board in most sports, you'll see the men performing in a different way because physiologically, men are different than women. Men are different than women physiologically. The question is, in order to make sure we have a place where trans kids, trans adults, trans Americans can compete and not feel like they can express themselves in the world of sports, how level of a playing field can we make it? Can we make it a level enough playing field where? it can actually be fair

because if it's not then I want to make sure that everyone understands what we're talking about we're talking about then the potential of having women's sports dominated perhaps dominated by trans athletes and there are a lot of people who say

hey it's women dominating women fine by me it is women dominating women trans women are women but how do we get to a point to where without pitchforks and without fire that we can have a conversation about this that

actually dissects the actual issue that it's not like hey you know it's not fair fuck off and hey well hey like I'm a woman let me compete with everyone even though I have a clear physiological advantage over them that I wouldn't have had otherwise.

So we all got to grow up and put our big boy and girl pants on this one. We really do. We have to be unafraid to have the conversation. Well, and I think that the most damning evidence in the Leah Thomas case is what she placed when she was competing on the men's team versus what she placed competing against the women's team.

Now, if you just look at that, okay, like you can't deny it. Now, if you want to take Isaac's point of view, that's right, right? It's Isaacs, which we should point out is a trans man, but is still competing on the women's team because she has not gone through the transition. She stopped. Right. We should acknowledge that. If you take what she's saying in regards to Michael Phelps, then it's like, okay, Michael Phelps has twice the lung capacity as, you know,

regular swimmer. Is that what it is? That what this it is? He's got twice. He's got bigger lungs. Bigger lungs. Okay. Then break that down in Leah Thomas's case. You know, does Leah have bigger lungs? And then it's like, okay, well, she's got this type of, you know, physiological advantage. It's not because she's transitioned to a woman from a man to a woman. I think you have to, I literally think you have to break it down like that. Because if you can't point to something else, then logically when you break it

down, what else are you going to point to when you look at the numbers of what happened when she was on the men's team versus when she was on the women's team? And I really, that's why I say that's the most damning evidence, I think, when it comes to this as to why it appears unfair. Because we've seen what happened in one instance and we've seen what happens in another. And you can't deny that. But then it also seems very unfair to start, you know, subjecting. trans men and women to these case by case test and them constantly having to test every six months or three months or gear, whatever it may be, or putting them in a separate lane from everyone else. And now you're not acknowledging, you know, who they are. It is very complicated.

But I think that you can't just say, well, they're a woman or they're a man. It can't be that simple when you look at a case like Leah Thomas. It just can't. This is my fear. So you get people, people on this and we we seem to have drawn a clear moral line in the sand between two groups of groups of people in this country. On one side, there are people who are willing to fight for equality, fight for inclusion, fight for an ever-expanding definition of what it means to be an American. These people are on one side of this line. These people are willing to have uncomfortable conversations these people are willing to

advocate for people who they don't really understand these people are willing to go forward with love and try to brick by brick, build in America all right, that everyone can see themselves in.

On the other side of this line, there's another group of people. That other group of people seems to be a group of people who believe in the American status quo to a degree. where they want to tell you everything you can and cannot do

while you're in this country. They want to tell you what you can do with your body. They want to tell you who you are. They want to tell you where you can go. And I think we know very clearly who those people are. Those people take instances like this. Yeah. Where the layperson looks at this and says that's obviously not fair.

And they weaponize this issue. Right. They weaponize it and they make it a very, very easy sort of political sacrificial lamb to show everyone just how crazy we all are. Right. We have to be braver than they are insane. And it's very, very tough. We have to be braver than they are crazy. And it's hard because in certain situations, in dealing with.

with things that are this complicated, there's not always going, it's not going to always going to end up the way that we thought it did. And we have to be unafraid to actually say that. In this particular situation, it might be a case to where we go, okay, we're going to get to what's right, but this particular situation,

this is obviously not right. This is, we obviously have a ways to go in order to understand how this is going to be done in a holistic way. but we have to be brave, meaning we can't get the pitchforks out for one another. We have to be able to talk, ask questions, and we have to accept the information that we get back, right? And I think that's the real exercise of this particular situation. The real exercise of this particular situation is not about them. For one time, I don't agree.

Now what? Now what do we do? Do we figure out who's right and who's wrong? Is there a right or wrong? No. Do we need to work together to establish what right is? That is. It's the purpose behind it, right?

The purpose isn't to say that they can't compete. The purpose is how can we come together to get it to a point where it seems to use your word, leveled for everyone. That's the purpose. That's the motivating force behind it. It's not a right or a wrong. It's how can we get this to a place where the rules catch up to what is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, going on in society or in sports or whatever the issue may be. That's the goal. But yes, when the other side picks it apart and uses what you might have said in this conversation or me to their

advantage, they're missing. They have a totally different purpose and motivating force behind what it is that they want to do. And I think that's how you have to look at it. And I think one of the biggest, most important things you said is in none of this is Leah Thomas's fault. She's doing exactly what she's supposed to. She's working within the rules. She's being true to herself and working within these rules. And we should say that the NCAA has been very vague and sort of feckless on their rules for competition here. They've punted this several times. They came out with new guidelines not too long ago. Those guidelines just continued to kick the situation to the individual

sports and then to the actual individual agencies. And then all the way up to the Olympic agencies that will govern the entire sport at the Olympic level, the NCAA seems to not want to set guidelines that make this an issue that people have clarity on. Because let's be real with you, it's quagmire, it's a powder kick, okay, something that is very politically charged, it's socially charged, and it's delicate. What we wanted to do here was make sure that we had somebody on the podcast that can speak to the issues and to the feelings of the transgender community on this. And we have Raquel Willis joining us on the other side of this break on high learning, transgender activists all around fantastic human being.

Raquel Willis will be joined us. And we're going to ask her some of these questions. And hopefully we don't get canceled. You know, we might. We'll see what happens. All right. All right. All right.

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Services not available in all areas. Okay. So we are talking about. Leah Thomas and we will be hard pressed not to have a member of the community on our podcast today. And we are blessed to have Raquel Willis, who is a black transgender activist, writer, and media strategies dedicated to elevating the dignity of marginalized people, particularly black transgender people. Now, when I read that right there, that's like a lot. that's a lot to live up to. Do you ever feel any pressure about like, think about it.

You're dedicated. You're in the fight. You know, like I have something that goes Van Lathen, part-time ally. That's as deep as I get. You know what I mean? But for you, like it seems like that's taking on a lot. Black transgender activists. We know that our trans brothers and sisters are under attack in America.

So the first question I'll start off with is how are you doing? I am doing okay. You know, it's Women's History Month where like a week or so out from Trans Day of Visibility. So it's a good time. It's a hectic time. There are a lot of conversations like these that I'm having and a lot of things that I'm working on. But I feel great. You know, I think one of the things people always assume when I come into the room bringing my full self as a black trans woman, oh, your life is a It's just tragic. You know, they don't even consider us as anything but a hypothetical. And it's like, no, I'm, I'm okay. I just, like, had a late lunch. That might have been, I'm in the struggle today. But, you know, I have family that loves me, that cares about me.

I have friends and community. You know, I was out at a play the other night, you know, I have a life outside of, you know, kind of being this, like, social justice, like, pillar, I think, for other people. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. You know, often, you don't know the thing about that is, why don't I get that? Because I have to say that to people, too. Sometimes people will hit me up and they'll be like, Van, did you see this injustice that happened? And I'll be like, bro, it's Sunday. I'm chilling. Like, I'm not this guy on the time. Anyway. So, Leah Thomas, we're talking about the fact that Leah Thomas won NCAA swimming competition. And that has really, really ignited a debate in America, a debate in America about what's fair for female athletes in terms of competition against, how do I say, competition against trans women athletes, right? Would that be the way to say it?

Now, the reason why I'm being so particularly delicate here is because I, like a lot of people look at the Leah Thomas situation. And at first when I see it, I go, well, that doesn't seem fair. But the purpose of having the discussion on the podcast is really in this situation to get to what I and so many other people might be missing when we have these discussions. That's why I'm glad that you're here today. Tell me, what am I missing? For anyone who thinks that it doesn't seem fair, what am I missing?

I mean, I think we're missing a lot. So I would even back up. I actually think the trans sports conversation is one that people lead with, particularly people who know that they don't like trans people. They lead with that one with the general public because they know that it's so convoluted. They know that there are so many different ways that we inhabit our bodies, whether you are trans or not trans, which we call cisgender. So I think backing up and understanding, at the heart of a lot of these conversations around fairness and equality for trans people is, are trans people really who we say we are? And so when we talk about trans women, if you can't even respect trans women as women in the workplace or as women in your family or as women in your community, then, yeah, it's going to be a jump to understand that trans women should be able to compete with other women in sports. So it's like I'm so, so happy you're here to have this conversation and to break it down because sometimes, and I'm sure a lot of what we call our listeners thought warriors might feel this way as well is, you know, it's such a, as you said, convoluted topic where I feel like can I even speak about it? You know, I'm not a part of the community. I'm not an athlete in that sense. I mean, you know, let me tell you back in the day, you know, big rage got to.

around on the track and a basketball, shop a fan on the, on the, but I'm not, I was not a collegiate athlete. And so I feel like do I even have the right to speak up? So even before I get into that, what would you say to someone like me who comes to you and says, like, can I even speak to what's going on? Like, can I have an opinion? Sometimes I feel comfortable about, uncomfortable, I mean, about that. Yeah. I mean, I think it's like any other conversation that you might be having about a community that either you're not a part of or that is on the margins. I mean, it's like white people saying, like, should we be discussing, like, the racism that, like, this is just on my mind, because I just saw King Richard, but that Serena and Venus experienced in sports, right? I don't know

that I would be comfortable with the average white person having a conversation with a white person on a podcast. Hell no. Without, you know, the input of someone who's actually a part of the community and who knows what's going on. So I understand people's fears and I think particularly for other black folks, it's like, well, you also have to understand that that is the same excuse that like white people use to not engage with race, right? Not engage with the differences that we may experience. So I think, you know, that fear is real. It's valid. And also, I think having these conversations are so key. But you know, I'm not a neuroscientist, so I'm not about to hop on a podcast and have a conversation

about neuroscience without having some conversations behind the scenes first to see where things are to understand things and to also Google and do my research, right, first. And I think that that's where we have a lot of these problems is that a lot of times the people who talk about trans issues in the news or in politics don't actually know trans people haven't actually read anything that trans writers, journalists, authors like myself have written, right, have not consumed authentic media from us. And so they're just kind of out there pontificating with no like lifeboat to fall back on, you know? Right. Yeah. So let me tell you what my fear is. And I mentioned this earlier when we were breaking down the topic on the podcast. My fear is

that this, and this is, this is the bullshit burden that marginalized people have to deal with sometimes. My fear is that this issue, it's such a binary issue to so many people that it normalizes the stock of the assholes, right? I think what we all want in America is an America that's equitable, an America that is where we have equality, where everyone can live who they are, be who they are, and that they're accepted and celebrated for that. Not just accepted, but celebrated for being who they are.

When people see an athlete who was in the 400s as a male swimmer, transitioned into a lady swimmer, and then win the NCAA championship, they right away go, that's not fair. They say a year of hormone therapy or whatever it is can't undo the scientific advantage that you might have through puberty. And that to me, then it comes back. To me, it others, sometimes are brothers and sisters in the trans community because then it starts to look like, hey, these are people, Americans who only care

about their agenda and don't really care about the fairness of institutions that have been around for a long time. And it sometimes fuels it. And if we don't talk about it, then we can't get. get into the nuance of how we go about this and how we go about this inclusion and bring everybody in. The reason why I say that is like, for someone that says it's not fair, for someone that says that shouldn't happen, for some of the female athletes like Martina Navratelona, Martina Navitlova, Diana Nyad that say that's not fair, that should not be happening.

Are they right or wrong? Again, I think that is a convoluted question. I think everyone's bodies are different, right? So let's be clear. Prior to my medical transition and hormone replacement therapy, I wasn't a good athlete then. And I'm not a good athlete now. So I think that we have to consider that what makes someone elite is,

it's different. It's not always the same for each person. Now, I will say I completely understand why folks will look at this and kind of side-eye, like, what is going on. Because there has been some murkiness with what's been considered the standards around hormone levels, right? Like, notably, some of those standards have shifted for different athletic bodies versus others. That was a big thing, obviously, with the NCAA was like they opted out of shift. the rules for Leah Thomas to compete. They punted on it.

Right, because they were already in the middle of a season, and that would have been unfair, right? So I think, obviously, on either side, they would have gotten a backlash. I think what we have to consider is this is a particular case. Leah Thomas is a particular person, and I'm not a scientist. I'm not going to profess to be a scientist

and know the ends and outs of what their barometers or things are. But I will say with hormone replacement therapy, a lot of the general public discounts, the kind of changes that happen physically and medically for a trans person. Because I just started CrossFit like a year ago. And I will tell you, even though I'm also older than I was, obviously, at the start of my medical transition, I am not as strong as I once was.

I cannot carry as much as I used to be able to carry. But I will say, I'm not saying that that's the experience for every trans person. That is just my personal experience. So, you know, in hearing your response to what Van, you know, Van's question was, it does seem like you're saying things are kind of on a case by case or that this is a particular case. But we are seeing this being addressed even not just on the in the NAAC. NACP, the NCAA, but also in, you know, if people are starting to have these conversations in high school and junior high when it comes to sports. And so I'm wondering, and I don't even know if you have this answer, but what should be done?

Because it doesn't seem like applying a blanket rule is going to work if everything is done on a case-by-case basis or if each case is different. you know, would it be offensive if there were certain categories? And like I think Martina was the one who said, you know, there should be a category for biological females and then an open category for everyone else. Like, would that be offensive? And like I don't know if that sounds ignorant to ask that, but I think that's something that people might be wondering. Yeah. Well, I, you know, I'll just offer, you know, the terminology biological female is one that we can to be outdated now, right? Because we know it takes a lot of different factors that we consider

female. Are we saying hormonal levels? Are we saying chromosomal levels, right? And there was actually a high profile case a few years ago with a South African runner named Cassius, who was, you know, cisgender woman, you know, a sign female at birth and had been competing. And they said that her hormonal levels, particularly around testosterone were too high, right? And so what does that mean for them? And I want to know, and I'm coming back around to your question, I promise.

But I want to note also that I think we also have to look at the ways that even black women who are not trans have been treated within the sports world, right? A lot of this conversation that's about fear, about them dominating the sports, I mean, some of those headlines are ripped right out of what, for instance, Serena and Venus went through, what, 20 or so years ago, right?

This idea that, you know, they were so unnaturally superhuman, whatever they were dominating against these little white women. And I also think that we have to be very clear that there's a reason why overwhelmingly, the women who are the most transphobic against trans women athletes tend to be privileged white women. because for me, as a black trans woman, I'm looking at the spectrum of hate. And the hate against trans women and trans people and just that kind of particular misogyny and phobia that trans people face is completely connected to white supremacy. Because there's a certain amount of entitlement there.

And so anyone that comes in and that kind of, you know, mixes up the conversation a little bit more, is seen as a threat. And I think that that is a lot of where some of the fear is coming from. Going back to the youth, that answer, again, I think it depends on who you talk to. I had a conversation with some young trans athletes like two weeks ago. They're amazing. I have like this town hall that's coming out with them. But, you know, there were some who were saying, you know, I, I as a trans woman really want to be able to play with other girls, right? Or I as a trans boy want to really be able to play with other boys. But they felt so ostracized in some of those instances that they really didn't have any other

choice. And then there was another young trans person that was like, I had to find sports that were more gender neutral so that I could feel comfortable and still be able to do whatever I was passionate about. So I think I think the answer varies and I hate that I can't give you a definitive one because I do think that it varies across the board. Let's say you don't think it's fair because I look at the Leah Thomas case and I just like intellectually it just doesn't seem fair. Does that mean that you're transphobic? Would you say that someone that looks at that and goes, well, that's not right?

like we need to search. And when I say that's not right, I mean that particular case, meaning I don't think that the NCAA is devoted enough time to doing the scientific work to figure out what exactly the threshold should be here. But in that case, going from there to number one, it doesn't seem fair.

Does that make you transphobic if you feel that way? I feel like I'm always like inserting nuance. And I want to be able to give like a definitive answer, but most people are transphobic, man. Like, let's be real. Let's be real. I can't tell you how many conversations I've had with people just like out and about, right? Whether it was like, you know, an Uber driver or it was some guy that like hit on me on the street or it was like someone at a, you know, at a church or whatever who looked at me differently and treated me completely differently once they.

learned that I was trans or once I told them that I was trans. And we see this time and time again on social media, especially if you're on the black side of social media. I mean, how many times do we say, do we hear people say or read people say, here's that agenda again. They're coming after us. They're coming after the black family. Yeah, they're going on for girls. men anymore because they're all trying to feminize us, right? Yeah. And I think a lot of those ignorant ideas feed into why someone would be so quick to say, well, obviously, Leah Thomas is some kind of op because I already don't like trans people, right?

I mean, I think that there's a lot of unlearning, which I love, Rachel, you talk about this so much, to be unlearning that we have to do around the things that's been indoctrinated in us that we didn't even know was a problem. I mean, I grew up in the 90s, right? I mean, I grew up, you know, in Georgia, in a very Catholic family, you know, there was nothing telling me really until I got to college that, oh, people can have different gender experiences. Oh, people can be attracted to different types of people. I didn't get any of that education, right? Like those, I learned who I was, unfortunately,

from being called a sissy first, right? Or being told I was just like a girl. And I think for me and a lot of other older trans folks who've been through that, for us, it's about us having more of these conversations so that the next generation of folks, Gen Z is identifying more as LGBTQ than any previous generation. that they don't have to deal with the same kind of hate

that we dealt with along the way. Amazing. Raquel Willis, you have a debut memoir coming out. Look, it's interesting in the way this is written. It says Raquel is currently working on her debut memoir. Now, listen, the reason why I say that's interesting is because can you come back with a sequel from a memoir? Can you do multiple ways?

Is that true? I think you could have a part two. I think you could have a part two. I didn't know that like you could have multiple memoirs, that you could M.M. That you can have multiple. Okay. So, you know, the funny thing is a lot of people conflate an autobiography, which is usually a person's story from birth until maybe death or wherever they are in their life. Right.

With a memoir that typically is capturing a particular moment in their life or time in their life. So this memoir is only capturing really the last, really from. like 2013 to 2020. Oh. Okay. So it's not capturing my whole life. So are you going to put... So it's a prequel this coming.

She can do a prequel. Kind of. I imagine there being another memoir that's like my coming of identity. I did, I initially started the project wanting to tell kind of a more typical coming of identity story. Like I transitioned and da da da da da and da. And I still think that there's a place for that. But after George Floyd happened and unfortunately was murdered and there was this social justice awakening, I was like, oh, you know, the narrative that we haven't really discussed is like what hasn't been like for a black trans woman who is an activist to be a part of all of these different movements over, you know, this era of like Black Lives Matter or trans visibility.

I don't know anyone else who has kind of written about that. And I think that that would seem more interesting. Very. That actually left me with one more question. Okay. One more question. You make me nervous, man. I'm sorry.

It left me with one more question. This is the question. Okay. You just mentioned George Floyd. You just mentioned the fact that you showed up. in situations where black people have been in peril in order to force the establishment to change the status quo. Do you feel like black people show up for your plight in that same way? And I'm not meaning to generalize.

No, I'm not meaning to generalize. Do you, you've shown up for George Floyd. Do you feel like the community by and large shows up for you? Well, you know, I think even baked into your question, I know you don't mean this this way, but even baked into your questions that, you know, as a black trans woman, I'm outside of the black community. Right. And I think that that is where a lot of our people come from. You know, they don't inherently think of black LGBTQ people as a part of the black community, which is a problem. I think that. When I consider the black community, I like to just lay down the context. I don't think that the black community is any more homophobic or transphobic than white people. Let's be clear because overwhelmingly the people trying to pass anti-trans or anti-LGBQ legislation writ large are white people.

Black people ain't got time to literally organize in that way that white people tend to. So that is a thing. But I will say, I think that our community has particular hangups around gender and identity that are historic. You know, I think black men and black masculinity, I think that there is a truth that they have been demonized. And I don't think you would find any black feminist, black woman, black queer person or trans person who would ignore that fact. But I will say we can't act as if patriarchy is not alive and well within our community. And so there's a reason why many more people would organize around a George Floyd than a Brianna Taylor. Yes, eventually Brianna Taylor's story got out there, but it took a little minute.

It was not given the same care and attention that George Floyd got. and George Floyd was killed after Rihanna Taylor. So let's also remember that. Not to mention this epidemic of violence that black trans people face. And I know that that will sound alarmist and sensational to a lot of people who are not privy to this information. But the trans folks who are most murdered tend to be black trans women, Latin trans women, right? and overwhelmingly it is at the hands of black men, you know, black cis straight men, whatever, whatever. And I do think that part of the issue there is we need to be giving more spaces for healing to all black people.

And so that means black women need more spaces to heal. That also means black men need more spaces to hill and find a healthier masculinity. We talk a lot about toxic masculinity, but what is the healthier masculinity that lets black men know, oh, they can experience fear without having to get angry and violent about it? They can experience uncertainty without having to get angry and violent about it. They can experience joy, right, and have a full range of human emotions and not be violent about it.

And also, they can love who they want to love, and that doesn't mean. make them less of a man. I think that that's also a big part of the conversation. Absolutely. Absolutely. Right. I just want to say, I don't even have a question. Just thank you for being here. But then also, I, I, you know, like we're starting to have this conversation. We've been saying for a long time that we were going to have these conversations on our podcast. And I'm so glad that we're starting to do that. But for people who, you know, need to, not just want to, but need to learn more, need to be talking about, you know, and I, I just I'm going to say, I love that you don't separate, you know, like the black trans community from

black people. You say, like, you talk about it as a whole. And I think that that's what we need to start doing as well. So where can people find some resources, some website, find what you're doing out there so we can keep this conversation going? Yeah, well, I'm really proud of this Black trans history TikTok series that I did for Black History Mind. I really found like a bunch of figures from literally like the 1800s, the early 1900, who would be considered trans today, right? Who lived as who they are. And I can nerd out about all of us for years,

but a lot of the earliest records we have of black trans, people are actually criminal and court records because a lot of times you would be arrested for wearing clothing that they told you you couldn't wear because of your gender. And I think a lot of us don't know that in terms of the history of the criminalization of black. people. So I would say, look up the Black Trans History, TikTok, some amazing books. There's one called Black on both sides by a scholar called C. Riley Snorton. Amazing book. I would also lift up my sister

Janet Mock, who I'm sure some folks know her first two memoirs, redefining realness and surpassing certainty are amazing. And there's a movie. Well, it's really a documentary on Strong Island by a black trans director named Yance Ford that I would say people could watch that too and learn more. And they kind of talk about their brother who was murdered in the 90s by a white man that he worked with and the jury was not on their side.

So that's a few different things. There's a lot more out there. Follow me. I'm always sharing more resources. You know. Follow you where? Oh, just Roccolle Willis. Rockhill.

Willis.com, Raquel Willis on IG or Twitter. You know, I try to have it synced up. All right. Thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate it. All right. We're going to be right back on the other side of this break. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriatic arthritis,

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perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means pointing your whole day around it, presenting the Friars turkey breast only from Borris Head. The backyard tradition now available behind the counter. Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftsmanship behind by Boris Head committed to craft since 1905. Raquel was great. Fantastic. And you know what I like is that she was like, I don't have all the answers.

You know, I'm sure people come to her all the time and are like, you know, tell me what to do or, you know, like, how can we fix this problem? And I think the biggest takeaway from what she said is like, we got to talk about it. We have to have these conversations. Yeah, it's true. I don't do that with white people.

I know you don't. Well, white people come up and they ask me how to solve this problem. I just, I just, I always have an answer. The answer is a lot of, sometimes the answer is like not my real answer. Like, man, how do we solve, like racism? You know how we solve it? Stop being a bitch. How about that?

That's what you do. There is some truth into that. Van, I want to know how you can, how you can, how we can help out. How can I be a good ally by getting your head out of your fucking ass? That's how, that's the kind of allies I want. Y'all, just ask me. Just ask me. Rachel, big stuff happening right now in D.C.

Katanji Brown Jackson, it's day one for confirmation hearing. She is in all probability going to be the first black lady judge in the history of the Supreme Court. And I think everybody knows what a big, huge thing that is to me. All right, they've been coming at her. I want to, I want to, I want to throw something out here. I saw this. See what you think about this because you're a legal eagle. You're a legal eagle.

You're a legal eagle. All right now, as far as someone who has had public high school, Ivy League law school, Supreme Court clerk, public defender, has been on a sentencing commission, has been a district judge and a court of appeals judge with. With all of those things, there is one judge that checks off all of those boxes when we talk about qualifications. Ivy League law school, obviously went to a public high school, which is a big deal because you want people to be seasoned with being around the regular folks. Supreme Court clerk, a public defender on a sentencing commission, a district judge, and in the court of appeals, there's one person. Do you know who that is?

Yeah. Wait, they currently sit on the court? They're not currently on the court. Oh, yeah, we're talking about Katanji. Wrong, Clarence Thomas, just joking. I was like, I know that ain't the case. Yeah, it's good Kataji Jackson. So it just seems weird that Assisted steps to the door who's overqualified, super qualified, and they paint her.

Is it weird? Well, not weird, but it's to be expected, right? this is why phrase is like twice as hard for half as much come about. Like you know you got to be at the top of your game. You can't half asset when you're stepping into really anything as a first. She addressed the committee opening statements. This is what she had to say. The first of my many blessings is the fact that I was born in this great nation.

A little over 50 years ago in September of 1970. Congress had enacted two civil rights acts in the decade before, and like so many who had experienced lawful racial segregation firsthand, my parents, Johnny and Ellery Brown left their hometown of Miami, Florida, and moved to Washington, D.C., to experience new freedom. When I was born here in Washington, my parents were public school teachers, and to express, both pride in their heritage and hope for the future, they gave me an African name, Katanji Onyika, which they were told means lovely one. My parents taught me that unlike the many barriers that they had had to face growing up,

my path was clearer so that if I worked hard and I believed in myself in America, I could do anything or be, anything I wanted to be. You know, you know, I can tell you something. Tell me. That's beautifully said. Beautifully.

You know why? Despite, despite, besides the fact that she is, you know, way smarter, way more qualified, so is President Obama, so is Michelle Obama. So is everyone that's on that level. You know why that'll never be me? Why? Or it could never be me. It's because like, they really love America for real.

I could tell in her voice that she loves America. What is she supposed to say? She's got to love America. Like people, this is a thing that they don't think, like for me, I'm not like a super patriot because I'll. No, you're not.

But what is she supposed to say? She really loves America though, for real. She's devoted her entire life to the American process. And sometimes black people don't get credit for being patriots. And that's because, Let's be honest. We kind of judge black patriots. If like, if you're a black person and you love, love, love, love America, like you,

it's like weird? So, you know what? I didn't look at it as much as like she love, loves America. I just, I guess I just look at it as she, as you said, has dedicated her life to people and to helping people, which happens to be in this country, America. Right. She loves people. She wants people to help people.

She wants people. Like she has a talent, a gift where she can be in a position to help people, you know, who look like her as well. And I, and I, that's more of, I guess, what I got from that. Right. Then I got like, she's like about to, you know, strike a verse from I'm proud to be an American. I was thinking. I was thinking about that song. I used to like that song.

Did we all love it? And I want to stand. Stand up. That was. proud to be an American at least I know I'm free At least you know you free What are you talking about?

And I'll gladly stand up God bless the USA I used to get so I used to cry Yeah I used to get so into that song Why the fuck You know what I'm saying? Lisa I know I'm free.

All my uncles in jail So they're always Well, Sikhs the song It sounds like Bob Seeger or something like that He ain't free They put this in jail, nigga Um

So Lee Greenwood Lee Greenwood Golly Wait, Have you seen Lee? Let me see Lee Have you seen Lee?

Have you seen Lee? Let me see Lee Greenwood. I bet Lee Greenwood got so many N words. Just just type Just type in proud to be an American because I want you to see the same. Oh.

That is not who I would have thought that's. Exactly. That is not who I would have thought that that was. He was a member of the National Council of the Arts. He's a Republican, of course. Oh, good. While I was released in 1984, I don't know why I thought that song was older than that. They don't have any, I want to know what Lee Greenwood's controversies are.

Let me see. Okay, anyway. You know, so look, the, uh, the, uh, uh, uh, uh, oh, wait a minute. Did you find something? No, the day before the inauguration of Donald Trump, Lee Greenwood performed at the Make America Great Welcome celebration. There you go. Lee Greenwood.

I know it, nigga. All right. So, look, the Republicans have come out with their pitchforks against Katanji coming out. This is what Senator Ted Cook from a Republican from Texas, your home state has said. She is part of the Democratic effort to abolish the police is nominating justices that consistently side with violent criminals, release violent criminals, refuse to enforce the law and that results in jeopardizing innocent citizens.

Now, this is coming from the fact that, number one, she's served as a public defender, which is part of America. People say, hey, you're public defender. That means you must love criminals. And also, she's been a part of several progressive criminal justice policies. The Republicans never cease to amaze me.

One second. the Republicans are, hey, we let more niggas out than anybody. First Step Act, we are changing criminal justice reform in this country forever. And it's Kushner and Trump, Kushner and Trump, Captain Sava Ho's. We're going to go around to everyone and let everybody out of jail. Everybody that's ever been in jail, we're going to let them out because we're changing the way this goes. But as soon as you get a justice in there, who's dedicated their life to really examine these things, and talking about sentence reform and talking about these issues

on a judicial level, now soft on crime, pro letting criminals out. When I thought the Republicans were taking responsibility and credit for criminal justice reform. Did you call him Senator Ted Crook? Cuck. Ted Cuck.

Rachel, do you know what a cuck is? It's not a big thing. Can I get the spelling? Let's guess. See you. C.K. Rachel, what is a cuck? Dick? No. It has something to do with that, though. Okay. So,

cuck is short for a term called cuckold. Do you know what it means to be cuckolded? No. Donnie. Do you, oh, no, no, no, no. Hell no. You are not allowed at all. Donnie, do you know what it means to be cuckolding? Yes, I do. Donnie, before we get to that definition, Trudy. Trudy, Trudy already looked it up.

Trudy, do you know what it means to be cuckold? No. Interesting. You guys go to different websites than I do. Donnie, what does it mean to be cuckolded? A cuckold is a person who enjoys watching somebody have sex with their significant other. I don't know if it's strictly man or a woman. I thought that was like voyeurism.

Right. So cuckold is really when, like, if your woman is fucking another. person, then you're a cuck. You're a beta cuck bastard. You're a little beta cuck, little cuck-hulling. Cuck-holding. Let's look at the higher learning word of the week. We're going to start to do word of the week.

Every week. Cuck-hold. All right. Cuck-holding. No, that's not the words we're teaching our audience. Cuck-holding. Cuck-holding is the act in which a man or woman enjoys watching their partner have sex with another person.

The word cuckold is based on the cuckoo-bird, which disguises its end. and other birds nests and leaves them to take care of the hashlings. Oh, you got cuck, hold it. So yeah, he's a cuck. He's a cuck. He's a cuck. He's a cuck. Think about it.

You'll cuck. You know what I mean? You like watching somebody cuck it up. I don't like it. I don't like the word. I don't like the word. Cuck of the week. I mean, if while we're throwing out words, like when it comes to the,

what I find most interesting with the Republicans or at least Republicans like Senator Ted Cruz. is the hypocrisy of it all. Like if you looked up hypocrite hypocrisy, whatever form of the word you want to use, it would absolutely be the Republicans in this instance. Like nothing matters. There's nothing to stand on this.

It's just like whatever the day it is, whatever the issue, whatever is going to push forward the agenda, you know, like the purpose, the bill, whatever it may be the person. That is what they're standing on. And it's always going to be. fickle and fleeting. It will change the next day, the next week, the next month.

Like, there's nothing that they hold on to that's sacred that's value other than, I don't know, themselves in their own opinion. They used to be, though. It didn't used to be that way. Populism is something that's become, with the rise of Donald Trump, populism is something that's become a bigger staple in the Republican Party, but it wasn't always that way. There used to be five or six lynchpin sort of arguments that you could at least, at least they would talk, now it's crazy. Now if their president comes in, spends a whole lot, but spends a whole lot, they're for spending for the government or therefore they're pro-welfare. You get billions and billions of dollars to the farmers. Now you come in, you want your bill back better deal. They're against

it. Politically, when the Democrat is in office, they don't give a fuck about the deficit. When the, excuse me, when Republicans in the office, they don't give a fuck about the deficit. When the Democrats in the office, all the deficit is. The deficit is one big, huge deal. There's some of that that's political life as usual, like political politics as usual there. But the Republicans have really, really, really turned to populism in a way

that is really concerning because that means as crazy as their constituents are, it's how crazy they'll be. So you're governed it from the bottom of it. All right, more is over. Now, I'm going to be very honest with you. I thought it had been over. I thought we've been watching reruns this

entire time. I did not know new episodes were being made every single year. I thought we were watching syndicated shows here. Were you aware that Moore is still on the air? I've never watched one episode of Moore ever. Yeah, I definitely have. I've definitely watched a full episode.

Yeah, never. But you've seen clips. Of course. Okay. NBC Universal Executive Toad deadline. It's canceling more at the end of the 20-21 season. It's been on 30 years. Shout to Moroovich. Um, Morris said he was ready to retire six years ago, but he said,

and I quote, I'm so proud of my relationship with NBCUniversal and all those who worked on the show. Uh, but as I, as I occasionally tell my guests on Mori, enough already, he said, I wanted to retire six years ago,

but Mori says, and I quote, you niggas wouldn't stop busing off wrong. That's what Mori said. I will say this. So there's been a lot of shows that have gotten to acts recently. I know there's some talk about

whether or not the real is coming back, Wendy Williams, is gone, but the show I think is sticking around. I'm not sure about that. Nick Cannon is gone. Yeah. Nick was doing a great job.

Shout out to Nick over there. And I don't know if that's, I mean, obviously these are staples that have been around for a long time. I just don't know if that's because of TV. You know? It's newer generation.

But there's still, I mean, but there's still a huge audience that watches. Daytime TV, exactly. Kelly Clarkson doing well. Tamara Hall doing well. Ellen, the end of Ellen is coming.

So Ellen will have to resort to screaming at people in the grocery store now. We won't be able to do it on her show behind the scenes. Look, here's the thing about the Mory show. Last thing I'll say before we get to a very serious question. Racial, there's a hole in the marketplace. I think higher learning should be the new place that you come when you don't know if that baby is yours. All right.

Well, we'll take, we'll take, Donnie, let's get a message about paternity test. Paternity tests on higher learning. You think I'm joking. I would like to do that here, you know. I would like to do paternity tests. There's two things on Mori that I know are there that I would like to do. I would like to do because there's two things that I like that Mori would do.

I would like to do paternity tests and kids gone crazy. I personally think. Doesn't Dr. Phil? kind of do kids going crazy. Is that Dr. Phil with kids going crazy? Well, no, I mean, like, that's like where catch me outside came out, like where you can't control your kids.

Oh, that was Dr. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. See, because I was just thinking that because I've seen kids going crazy. They come out, everybody's like, boo, and she's like, fuck you bitch. Yeah. So what? You want to fight? You want to fight?

You want to fight me? I'll fight you. We'll fight you. I'll get fuck. I don't give a fuck. Yeah, I don't give a fuck. Fuck you. And then there's a fucking drill sergeant.

That comes out there and the drill sergeant runs out there. Steve. Oh, that's the name of the drill sergeant? No, I'm just saying like he ended up getting his own show. The bodyguard came from Jerry Springer, remember? Yeah, but he wasn't the drill sergeant for the wild kids. No, but he was like. I feel you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. My grandma used to like Steve. I mean, back in Dallas they used to do, I believe it was the Ricky Smiley morning show that did paternity test Tuesdays. And you'd call it. And you'd call in attorney test. You are, it was Ricky Smiley. You are not the father.

They did it all the time. paternity test Tuesdays. Tell you what. This show does come out on a Tuesday. If you ain't never been through that, there's like a feeling. There's only happened to me twice in my 20s. There's a feeling.

There's a feeling of when somebody's going to say that. Like you get a call. Hey, how you doing? What's up? How are you doing? I'm just chilling, sitting around here. I've been feeling kind of, I don't know, a little off. And all of a sudden, your heart starts beating a little bit.

What you mean you been feeling off? What you got with you? cold flu, something like that. No, no, no, no, like, you know, it's like sick, like my body. Like, you just feels like, you know, it just, I know how I feel is like,

feel a little different. I'm like, yeah, okay, cool. I got to go. No, no, no, I got to tell you something. What you got to tell me? I got to tell you something. Seriously, what you got to tell me? I don't know.

You know how I said I'm feeling well. I don't know. I'm not going to lie. I'm a little late. You late for what? Huh? What are you late for? What do you mean?

You late for class? What you mean? Say it. Say you late. What you're late for? You miss the bus? Then boy, then the next fucking X amount of time. I remember that drive.

When time I drove to her house, picked her up to drive to Walmart, you can hear a fucking pin drop. I'm like, is this how I'm going out? All right. Very serious question. Very serious question. Very serious question in the week. All right. If you had to be the last person in a sea of other people on earth,

would you be the last, would you rather be the last of your race or the last of your gender? Would you rather be, such a good question? Would you rather be the only black person on earth? Or would you rather be the only woman on earth? I'd rather be the only woman. It's going to be tough.

I need to be, I don't want to be the only black. It's going to be tough. I don't want to be the only black. It's going to be. No, originally I was like, oh, no, I don't want to be all these men and just me. But I don't want to be the only black person. But that's you saying you would rather, it's essentially you saying you would rather have men as allies that have women as allies. That's not true.

That's not true. That's how you saw it. That's not what I saw. Think about it. Think about it. No Ellen Pompeo. You know what I mean? It's like.

What's your answer? Huh? What's your answer? It's different for me. I'd rather be the only man. I'm going to I'm going to So great question.

I'd rather be the only man. But you know what's wild when you said the last of your race and when I saw meat as the only black person, I only saw white folks. Yeah. For saying that and like and so I'm Latinos. Right.

Obviously there would be I would there would be other people of color there. Right. I just, I just want to have a whole tribe of Jennifer Lopez, Puerto Ricans. You know, you'd have, you'd have your Asian homies, but you made your decision. All right, you guys, we're coming back later on this week. I promise to have an unexpected ally of the week this week. Promise. All right, that's enough.

Take the tips off, but do not stop learning. I'm Van Lathan Jr. I'm Rachel and Lindsay. We are. Bye, guys. Thank you.