Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - A Doechii Discussion and What Exactly Is an Industry Plant?

Episode Date: March 14, 2025

Van and Rachel react to questions about Doechii after she was invited onstage at a Lauryn Hill concert (12:35), Lil Yachty calls Black Lives Matter a "literal scam" (31:37), and Tucker Carlson touts the genetics of his people (45:10). Then a philosophical discussion on morality and religion: Can you have one without the other (57:44)? Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, everyone? It's Rachel Lindsay, and if you love all things Bravo, then you need to be listening to Morley Corrupt. Every Tuesday and Friday, your favorite ringer podcasters and I dive into Bravo's biggest moments and dish out hot and always unfiltered takes. And guess what? Now you can watch us too. That's right, Morley Corrupt is now available in video on Spotify. So whether you're listening in your family van or watching next to your white refrigerator, Don't be all uncool and miss out. Catch new episodes every Tuesday and Friday only on the Ringer Reality TV feed. Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors.

What is up? How I learning is on. It is I Van Lathan Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. Rachel, I have something to ask you. Should I be afraid? I need a commitment for you. Should I be nervous?

No. Okay. Well, maybe. It depends. All right. I need you to commit to something. Before you ask me? Well, I'm asking for the commitment, should I say.

Okay. Are you going to tell me and then I get to choose or you just want me to blind commit? I'm going to do that for you, man. Okay. I'm going to tell you and then you get to choose. Okay. All right. Rachel, I want you to commit to whimsy.

Whimsy what? I want you to be whimsical. Okay. Oh, am I? Am I too tough and straight line? You don't think I'm fun? No, no. Fun.

You don't think I'm light? You don't think I'm light? You're very fun, okay? But when I say commit to whimsical, I mean like, I mean like, so you want some of those. I just want a little, I want, there you go, wait. What I'm talking about? It feels good.

Donnie, freak out one time. Donnie, get on here and just freak out. You know what I mean? Come on. Donnie, give us something. Freak out. Freak out. No, Todd, you got to do more than that.

Do more than that. No more whimsy. No, the hands weren't even given. Now, you need to go berserk. You need to go berserk. Ashley, now's your turn. Ashley, get on here and freak out. I have faith in Ashley.

Oh, yeah, I like it. Ashley doesn't have to do much, though. Ashley's already one of us. Donnie. The whimsy crew. Donnie, I know I just became whimsical, but we're going to try again

at the end of the episode for you. Whimsie with the whiskey. I've got, I'm drinking and recording. So that's, that's whimsical. I might cut that. Or I leave it.

Donnie, why did you tell? I, I, I could have joined. What's the point? Why would you cut that? Like,

if you're drinking and you're recording, did you're recording, what's to be a deal? You're right. Can you bring, can you bring a drink? We're drinking. it on the podcast today. Can you bring me a drink, please?

It's late. It is late. I would like to thank the crew of higher learning. I have been on the road all week. I went to New York for a couple of days to go on CNN, do some CNN stuff. That was very fine. Then I went to Lansdown, Maryland, to talk to the Democrats at their yearly retreat. when we were talking about messaging and how to get through to the people, that was very fun. And from there, I decided to come surprise

Mama Mo for her 86th birthday. So right now, I'm in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Now, if you're looking behind me, you're saying, man, these are not the hotels that we're normally accustomed to seeing you in.

Baton Rouge is not a hotel town. Okay? Not a hotel town of Baton Rouge. Where did I stay when I was there? I stayed in some, like, old building that had been like re it was like it was cool it was like artsy kind of industrial but you were there on behalf of the chicken nix i was there for justin's birthday but i got my own hotel oh you did well yeah that didn't that didn't have anything yeah i flew it out

for justin's birthday the chicken niggas uh they didn't they didn't hook in with a hotel or anything like that didn't ask for that i was there for justin to support my friend How's he doing? He's doing great. He's doing great in a relationship, announced it to the world on Jenna and friends. So now I can talk about it. Yeah, he's thriving. I need to tell you what happens to me these last couple of days.

Oh, this sounds interesting. Give it to me. So on Friday, on Friday in the middle of the night, smoke alarm goes off. Okay. My smoke alarm goes, fire, fire, fire, fire. It says it. So, of course, it's jarring. You jolt it up out of your sleep.

You're trying to figure out if you smell smoke. Where's it coming from? Is it outside? You don't see anything. And it just shuts off. Right? But every alarm is going off in the house. There's like seven of them.

Everyone's going off in the house. All right. Go to Austin. Come back. Sister and my nephews were in town for a few days. They're mainly in San Diego, but L.A. Alarm goes off when I come back. same thing fire fire fire stops i look up i'm like why do fire alarms randomly go off it's like oh it could be

debris it could be low battery change the air filters change the main battery still going off randomly three four times a day so finally i'm like i think the one in my bedroom is the one that has the low battery so i'm like all right let's change the one in the bedroom Get the ladder, go up there, open up the fire alarm to change the battery, and a couple of ants crawl out. So I was like, oh, remove the battery, maybe like 10 ants come out. And I was like, oh, shoot, I wonder if there were some ants in there. And that's why I was setting off the fire alarm. I twist open the fire alarm.

It rained ants and eggs. I am not, eggs. That's awful. Eggs. I'm like, I'm horrible. I'm saying it. It rained ants and eggs. This is no exaggeration.

I screamed, almost fell off the ladder. I don't know what to do at this point. Like my sister is looking up options, trying to figure out. Well, yeah, but like this is nighttime. This is, yeah, like, I could have terminated. Oh, you mean, you're in the present time when you're doing this. This is, yes.

This is night time doing it. So we have to vacuum up the eggs, spray, rave. I have a video. I don't have a video for raining. Obviously, I don't know that was going to happen. But, like, Willie went back up there to look, and you can just see eggs, all in, at the top. I'll put a video that we can insert because I own the copyright privileges to that video.

So we can put that in there. And we can talk about that later But yeah, yeah, yeah. So we ended up having to have the exterminator come the next morning And fumigate the entire house. So I've never seen anything like that before. The interesting thing is this. That night, just itchy.

The ants is a big deal and that would suck. I don't know why for some reason the eggs bother me more than the ants. Well, it is the eggs that bother me more. Because imagine if they had hatched. Like, man, I'm not, there were hundreds of eggs. They were nesting inside of the fire alarm. So I thought they were widespread in the attic. They weren't.

Thank goodness it wasn't a bigger issue. But like the queen had laid all her eggs inside of, they were within the fire alarm. They were on top of the fire. It's the most disgusting thing. They were either eggs or larva. Like I couldn't tell the difference. I'm not so sure. Like, I keep trying to tell you guys,

they don't teach us about animals after a while, so we don't really know what it is. We should be able to identify what's going on, but they don't teach us about animals. Let me say something. It's definitely shocking, right? But do we think about the ants at all in this situation? Are you kidding me?

No. They're in my house. Why am I going to think about ants? Go nest somewhere else. You got all the outdoors and you're going to come in my house and nest? Why the hell am I going to consider the ants? Because, you know, the ants are just trying to survive. Go do it somewhere else.

Wow. Am I nesting? Oh, so we the ants now? You, you, yeah. Please. We not the ants. You are the white people. You're a human supremacists.

You're a human supremacist. I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that. Anyways, haven't seen an aunt today, aunt free as of last night. I had to leave the house for hours.

I'm fucking with you. But that would be, that would be fucked up. Look, I guess the thing for me is, should we get into, a situation where we learn how to live with the ants. Man, I'm not going to do this. I don't even know what that means or what that looks like.

You're not alone, it looks like. I think people have had this experience before with smoke detectors and ants. I'm putting y'all on game. When your alarm goes off randomly, get ready. Because it's ants. Oh, you know how niggas already have chimes? like there's smoke detenters maybe it's ants in me

when your smoke detectors chimed me maybe it's ants who knows no um ooh we have to say something real quick just let you guys what

so this podcast is going to look and sound a little bit different oh something's happening right now and all I'll say is this we are not right now allowed

to put any copyrighted material, audio and video in the pockets. So for us, for right now, the rule and the idea of fair use doesn't exist. Directed from on high, we can't do it, we're abiding by it.

That means rather than put clips in it and react to stuff, we are going to have to read quotes and do stuff like that. You're not going to see the stuff visually. You're not going to hear it from an audio standpoint. We're going to have to tell you the things that are happening and then we're going to have to react to them and it's going to be a little bit more conversational than things normally are.

Okay? Which sucks? I'm going to say it. Oh, you guys say it. It sucks. It definitely sucks. It's bad. Yeah.

Hopefully it's a temporary thing. Yeah. Hopefully it's a temporary thing. But who knows how long it'll last. But for the time being, okay? Maybe you bring up your little Twitter. If you want to hear the clips that we're talking or the things that we're referring to,

you'll play them because we're not going to be able to play them for the time being. But it's not going to be that way forever. All right. On the other side of this, a game I like to call, fair or not, starring,

my pal Rory from the new Roryan Mall podcast. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriatic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness and swelling. Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, gusalcomab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with

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Predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25. bonus. Offered by Fandual prediction markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Bonus is non-withdrawable and expires seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at fanduel.com slash predicts slash bonus dash offer dash terms. Okay. Rachel. Donnie give it to us. All right. It seems like Dochi has been a topic of conversation a lot

online lately. People calling her industry plant and such. But recently on Rory and Mals podcast, they had a discussion about her appearance at a Lauren Hill concert where Lauren Hill brought her out to perform duop and that kind of went viral.

People were talking about her getting her flowers from a legend. And Rory had this to say. Now imagine the audio being played right now, but this is me going to read Rory's quote. He said, I feel like maybe you need to put in a little more work as far as proof to stand next to certain people.

I'm just saying from a music standpoint. I like the moment. I loved her doing the second verse. Just the hip-hop nerd in me, which is sometimes a bad thing, is looking at that like, all right, man. Like, do you know what Nikki Minaj had to do to get on that song with Beyonce? Thoughts on Rory's case? I know we can't play clips, but if we could,

I feel like I would play that needy clip where she's like. like, stop it, stop it, shut up. You sound so dumb. That's how I feel about, that's how I feel about Roy. Yes, this take makes no sense to me. If you told me you were doing this just for the sake of arguing the other side of it

or to have a viral moment, which it has become, to play the bad guy, then I would say, okay, I understand the motive behind it. But this makes no sense to me. Before I even get into this, what categorizes you as an industry?

plant because I feel like that term is being used so frequently now just when somebody becomes popular to the mass is what seems to be quickly even though you might have known that this person's been working at this craft for a while but all of a sudden they're everywhere and automatically they're deemed an industry plant. I feel like that terminology is thrown around like gas sliding is or this person's a narcissist. I'm asking you what makes somebody in industry plant because it's happening too often. Do you mean somebody being labeled

as an industry label? Label, label, thank you, labeled, label. So I think industry plant is a particularly contemporary term and I'll tell you why. First of all, before we get into the music industry, I must say something. I don't know anything about NeoSoul music.

I just don't. Thank God. Next time we'll bring Ian on to talk. Okay. I legitimately realized, not even know what Neal Soul was, right? Like, I didn't know. I thought Neal Soul was a completely different type of,

a very specific niche of music. I thought it was literally the, I told you, the Sunshine Anderson, Indiari, Music Soul Child, very bright color. Sunshine Anderson, I wouldn't say. Apocentric, all of that stuff, right? That's what I thought it was. I thought I thought, I had so,

many people that I really respect in the music industry of Gauvain, like Maxwell, not Maxwell, but DeAngelo D'Angelo started Neosol. I didn't look at him as Neosol then. I thought Neo-Soil was later. Okay, I was wrong about DeAngelo, and not only was I wrong about DeAngelo. Let's be honest with you guys, I didn't know what the fuck

I was talking about with the whole Neosol thing. Honestly, I was listening to another artist a lot at that time, and we can't really talk about him. But a lot of the Neosol artists, like, I didn't really look, like, you know, was Lauren Hill Neosol? Is that a Neo Soul album that she put out?

No. There was, see that people say no. Some people say yes. All kinds of conversations. Our Neo Soul, Mount Rushmore was terrible. And my takes on Neosol were terrible. Okay. Guess what?

Put a big W on. I wear it. Okay. Now. Our Mount Rushmore was terrible. I mean, your Mount Rushmore was terrible. Mine was bad because I will acknowledge, like there's no reason I should not, like, that D.

DeAngel should not have been on it. Definitely. Definitely messed up. And Maxwell. No, no, no. Maxwell as well. I've frequently listened to both of them still to this. A lot of people were mad.

I messed up on that. That you didn't have B2K on your... B2K. Doom do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do. B2K. I used to love them little diggas, man. I used to love little diggers. B2K.

B2K. Dund do do do do do. Anyway. Okay, so back to industry playout. Back to industry plan. Okay, it's a contemporary term and let me tell you why. Back in the day, everybody was an industry play. Everyone.

Everyone was an industry plan. The industry's job was to plant you back in the day. I first heard the brat on a record with Chris Cross. I first heard DMX featuring on this guy's record. I first heard this person on this guy's record. You got you put in work in the streets, wherever you're from, you got signed. After you got signed, the industry had to plant you. What changed was the way that artists blow up. The way that artists blow up now is they build these really organic, or organic, these really organic followings online, YouTube, SoundCloud, wherever it may be.

And then boom, here comes the big deal on all the agilations and the labels have to figure out how to take advantage of that person's grassroots organic following. So what people say now is if that person really hasn't cultivated that following and all of a sudden they're buzzing, it's because the machine is behind them prematurely. So that means that anybody comes out, that comes out of nowhere and we really start liking them and we can't interrogate the reasons why people are really fuck with them. Fucking with them, people are going to say industry plan. People are going to say industry plan. People are going to say, oh, my God, this person is.

being pushed. Dochi is with TDE. So the whole conversation about Dochi being an industry plant is stupid because Doce is legitimately with one of the most

successful record labels of this century. So Dogey is with the industry. She is with Top Dogg. She is with J. Rock and Q and Cizza and all the people that have been on TDE.

They've had some artists on TDE that have been out of here, and they have some artists on TDE that although they've made quality music, have not gotten to the point that Dochi has gotten to. Plenty of people at TDE that have gone this way, and plenty of people at TDE that have had, it's always great music, but just average or frankly below average success. So the conversation behind her being the industry plant doesn't even make any sense because we really haven't gotten to know Dochi when she hasn't been with TDE, right?

So that doesn't even make any sense with her. It's not a real common. I think that's my point when I feel like people use that word so freely as a form of, it almost has a negative connotation as if the person isn't deserving of the success that they have. That's what I take from it when people throw it around. They see this person everywhere all of a sudden, and they're like, oh, the industry's forcing them on us as if this person doesn't have the merits

to be deserving of the success and popularity that they have. That's the connotation that I feel like people use it, which to me is definitely not Dochi. But back to Rory, because I feel like... Let me say one thing real quick. Let me say one thing real quick. You know that song, Where is yo? What's up?

You know that record? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so that's Dochy, right? Yes. Okay. So I posted it on Twitter a couple of weeks ago. Hey, it's amazing how many people don't know that this is a Dochi record. And people under the comments are like, oh my God, this is Dochi.

I thought this was Victoria Monet. I thought this was this person. I didn't know this so this one time. I would hear this in the mall. I didn't know who's saying this. Dochi has been around for a while making music. Not a long while, but she put out something that everybody likes. So what I'm saying is even when you say there's no such thing as a quote unquote industry plant that has a song that we don't like.

Even Takashi 6-9, even Takashi 6-9 had gumma. He had a record that people like. So whatever industry plant that you want to point to, I don't know how real. the industry plant thing is or not, I think it more has to do with whether or not someone has a legitimate grassroots, organic fan base,

or whether or not there is a label making it seem like they do. Dochi definitely has an industry machine behind her because she's with TDE and Interscope. She is a major label signed artist. She's going to get looks,

opportunities, and advantages that independent artists and other artists, don't get because she's signed to a major and not just a major, but a legacy 24-carat gold major. So the conversation around her being an injury supplant doesn't even make any sense. It makes zero sense. I don't like when people use it at all. I think, again, like you said, it's a newer term.

People are using any time they use it, I'm like, duh. Of course, if you're seeing this person everywhere, there's a machine behind them. You don't become that popular without a machine pushing this person in front of you, but it doesn't mean that they're not successful. They haven't put in the work. They aren't deserving of all of it. Anyways, back to Roy. As I said, this doesn't make any sense to me.

It was Rory, right? It said it. It was a mall. I don't know which one's which. Why are you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you're, you, you're, you, know, one's white and what's black. I'm dead serious.

Roy is the white one ball in the black. I don't know which one's, Which one? I'm not proud of those days. I don't listen to their podcast. I'm dead serious. I didn't know which one was which. Anyways, this take doesn't make any sense to me.

If this was the Grammys and Lauren Hill was in the audience and Dochey was picked by the Grammys to perform for Lauren Hill, his point would make sense to me. This is a Lauren Hill show. Lauren Hill brought Dochi to perform with her. That's the end of it, period. Somebody who has won best rap album of the year, Grammy, is giving flowers to somebody else who's done it. It's only happened three times. She clearly has a lot of respect for Dochi.

She's a fan. Only a talented. Only a three times for a woman, you mean. For a woman, for a woman. Wants to uplift her. This is exactly what you want to see. You want to see someone saying, I am passing the torch or I'm also giving praise and respect to someone who is very much so deserving of it. The whole, that's why I don't understand him saying like, she's going to, what's the strategy?

You know, I know on this clip, he can't play it, but he talks about a Nas verse and he talks about after certain years you can do this. After certain years, I'll do this with you. And after certain years, I'll do this with you. I don't think that there's a rule book to it. If Lauren Hill wants to praise Dochi, she is so within her right to do that. Anybody she wants to bring up stage on stage, whether they're unknown,

recently known, or they've been known. That is absolutely her right to do it. And frankly, I want to see more of it. So the take just doesn't make any sense. And I can think of so many examples. First of all, it's his opinion. You know, they got a very successful part. podcast, Rory, who by the way is in the music industry, probably speaks with a lot of these things with more authority than most people do.

But the take doesn't make any sense. The take doesn't make any sense. And I, like, there's just too many examples that shit on the tape. The first time I ever heard Drake, the first time I ever heard Drake was on a song called Lust for Life. I remember the first time I heard Lust for Life, I was like, this guy's going to be a problem. I'm just being honest with you. I was like, this is, oh, how, how. I was like, that's the shit kind of sound good to me.

But on that same, I had never heard a drink before, So Fargo. He might have been around. I know he had the mixtape before. He had one mixtape before, right? He had one mixtape before because he had the joint with Trace songs and stuff like that. I just want to be successful. Doesn't that one? That is on So Fargo.

Is that? Is that a mixtape? Yes. So far gone is a mixtape. That is on. Oh, okay, okay. Okay, I was like me, what? Okay.

Yeah. Love the pause. Love the dramatic pause that you just gave. I didn't do anything. Hey, I'm not about to play music expert. I don't know shit about music. Hey, look, take a steal in my face. I don't realize that was the name of that, of that, of that big thing.

Yes, yes. Okay. But so far gone has Bumby on it. It has Louis Wayne on it. It has. It has trade songs on it. It has all these artists on it that I was, when I listened to it, I was like,

because we were all on the Gmail thread. And Shantisa Norman, I'll never forget this. Shantisa Norman, a friend of ours, introduced to me by my brother Jibril, she put, she was like, hey, this guy is making a lot of noise. Like this, y'all going to like this. And she put it, she put, the mixtape in the Gmail thread.

And I started listening to it. And I'm listening to this shit. And I'm like, yo, this is fucking crazy. I love, love, love that body of work. And he got all of these artists on there the biggest fucking artist in the game. Lauren Hill is a legacy artist. But he's got artists on there.

The biggest artist in the game and legacy artists like Bump B. Hold on a mixtape has all of these features. I could name a bunch of other examples of this. It just happens, man. Jay Cole didn't have to wait to get a Jay-Z feature. He was with Jay-Z. You know what I mean? Jay-Z, Herd Lights, Please, sign Jay Cole,

and now Jay Cole is with you. It just happens. And not only that, but particularly this entire dynamic of older artists gets with hotter young artists, and it's mutually beneficial. Older legacy artists like Lauren Hill, it's like, oh, my God, Lauren Hill shows love to do.

Dochi, right? And then it's like, oh my God, Dochi is being big up by Lauren Hill. That gets both of them up there. It looks great for both of them. Now, I will say with Nikki Minaj, people didn't do that with Nikki. And people didn't do that with because I think of a little bit of jealousy. If you're talking about Nikki or there are a couple of artists that people didn't do that with that didn't embrace like they should have been embraced when they were the artists coming up. A couple of people didn't get that love. If you're going to bring up Nikki Minaj, Nikki is one of them. But that's just because I think, just to be honest with you, some of the older rap ladies

at that time didn't want to put Nikki on yet. They were still trying to compete with her. But that's not the same situation with Dolcey. And Nikki hasn't done that. Nikki's been featured with a lot of artists.

She's been featured with a lot of younger artists. She's had her music. But she's been featured with a lot of younger artists. She has. with a lot of younger artists as well. So I think in the situation with Dolce,

we're in a period where everyone wants to love on her. And people are for some reason looking for a reason not to embrace her success as something that she and TDE created. And I think that narrative is kind of spinning out of control.

Yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you. And it takes like this that don't help that. Right? It just doesn't make any sense. That's why, that's why I really wanted to talk about the industry plant thing because I just feel like people are so quick to

not just accept something for what it's it's like she won this she won this the best rap album third woman to do it we don't see this happening there has to be a reason why and it just can't be she put out an amazing album and she's really talented you know it just there has to be another reason

And I feel like that's kind of the the space we're in society right now. Like we question some of it, I understand. But we just question everything. Well, yeah, you want to know why all of a sudden everybody likes this person. Correct. But then they don't accept it when you tell them why or you listen to the music. It's almost that people are like,

that's not good enough. Well, with her, I just don't think people are paying attention to the time. I don't think people are paying attention to the fact that this kind of went the way was supposed to go. She had another joint. She had the joint with, um, with, uh, she had the record with Doja Cat.

So she, she has been, she, it doesn't seem like she kind of built up to this point, but she did. She did. Now, she, she has the support, but she had the records and whatever that people liked

and then she came out with the, with the project that people fuck with. It was a big deal. Bad take, bad take, Rory. Roy! That's a bad take, my phone. Rory, okay.

No, I'm just kidding. I'm just waiting. I'm just kidding. This all I got to say to you, Rachel, is when the smoke comes, when the smoke comes, just don't run from the smoke. See?

I'm not even, I'm not even, I mean, if both of them were like, I have no idea who Rachel is or in at that bachelor's right girl, I wouldn't even be offended. I'd be like, okay. That's not what you said when Sunshine Anderson came at your ass.

because she came with a stupid take like Roy did. Now check that. Oh shit. Donnie. All right. Let's talk about Lil Yadi and Black Lives Matter. He was on the YouTube show Feeding, Starving Celebrities with Quinn Blackwell. And she was asking him about his charitable contributions in the past few years.

And he was like struggling to come up with some names of things that he's contributed to. And she suggested, she was like, what about BLM? And he was like, BLM, it literally was a scam. They brought mansions. They bought mansions. And you probably wouldn't know anything about that because you don't care about black people. The last part he said was a joke.

But him saying it was a scam had people kind of divided over, over that statement, which I think about Lil Yati's take on BLN. So I have two takes that are, this is. is a both-sizer type of thing. I have two takes. Number one, the take itself is ignorant, right? But it's kind of not his fault.

And let me say, yep, I have to be honest here. So the take is ignorant. And it's not ignorant in the pejorative way that people use the term ignorant. It's just ignorant. Black Lives Matter is more

than just the Black Lives Matter global network fund that Patrice Cullors and other people were running. Black Lives Matter is a cultural movement that is based of a specific politic that seeks to litigate and relitigate the humanity of black people in America.

That's what Black Lives Matter is. And there are Black Lives Matter grassroots organizations everywhere. You could donate to one of them. Black Lives Matter groups have nothing to do with the Global Network. Fund is it fund or Foundation? Foundation. It's foundation. It's foundation.

So the Black Lives Matter groups that don't have anything to do with the Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation. That is, of course, the most recognizable one. But Black Lives Matter is more than Patrice Cullors and more than the centralized organization that people

are talking about referencing. And to be honest with you, from a lot of the other grassroots Black Lives Matter organizations that I know, they're very frustrating with that central group. They're very frustrated with them. They're frustrated with them from sometimes an ideological perspective, and then they're frustrated with them from a business perspective, right? I know that.

a bunch of different grassroots Black Lives Matters organization. So he just, either he doesn't know that or in that moment he didn't put that together. I would never say I would not give money to Black Lives Matter because Black Lives Matter is a scam because that is minimizing what it actually means and not just rhetorically but also in practice. Secondly, the fact that people think that is Patrice's in them fault. Now let me be honest with you. I have defended and I have gone to the mattress. is for the Black Lives Matter Global

Global Network Foundation on this podcast. And I still find it hard to believe that there was any intentional grift that was going on there. I don't think that there was. I do think, though, that there was a laissez-faire and reckless

way that they went about things both structurally and optically that let themselves be open to a lot of the criticism that they got. Let me be perfectly clear when I say this. A lot of the way that the Global Network Foundation has been painted comes from conservative talking points,

from right-leaning publications, and crazy people on the right. That stuff was then run with mainstream culture, and it caught fire amongst regular people. It caught fire amongst black people to me because we have a defense mechanism to get our antennas up

for people who might be trying to scam us in the name of black death or black life. So if we think somebody's doing something crazy with money off the names of different people, we are going to react to that. I don't think honestly, I really honestly don't think that they were trying to raise and raise money and defraud black people and lie. But I do think that they managed their money, their business from a public,

from a public perspective in a very poor way. And they left themselves open to the type of screen. that the Global Network Foundation is under now and Patrice Cullors and some of other people are under now. They left themselves open to that type of criticism by giving certain people jobs, by buying homes and then not using those homes in the view of some people for the express purposes

that you would use the home for all of that stuff. They left themselves open to that type of deal. So while I think that it's ignorant what he says, I believe, no, excuse me, I know why he thinks it. And I know why there's a prevailing belief amongst people that they were scammers. What did you say? You said it's not his fault. Is that how you phrased it at the beginning?

Yes. So I don't think you get to do it both ways. And this is why I kind of like jump back a little bit when you were like, it's not his fault. If you were going to make the statement that Black Lives Matter is a scam and then follow it up. Because what she says is, oop, we're going to clip that. And then his next statement is, no, it's a literal scam. If you are going to know that, and I'm using, like, air quotes, if you are so, so confident in knowing that, then there's a responsibility for you to know it in the full way.

And that's why I can't let him off the hook. Yes. with every, sadly with most organizations, whether they're for-profit or nonprofit, you have corruption. And there are scammers, even though I don't think Patrice Cullors is a scammer. I think that there are scammers within it.

There are other people who are related to some of the decentralized Black Lives Matters in other cities that have been found guilty for fraud and money laundering. Like there's a guy. So there are scammers affiliated with Black Lives Matter. So I understand. But no, I don't think most organizations aren't free of that, whether they're nonprofit or for profit.

That's just a thing. But for me, I will say the generalization that Liliotti makes is very dangerous. I don't think you get to say one thing and then not fully flesh it out or fully explain your point as to why you're saying that. Yes, there has been there have been exposés and articles. and I've been very critical about some of the people who are affiliated with the foundation, which is global, or some of the grassroots Black Lives Matters in cities. But to not recognize that it's not just an organization, it is a movement, extremely problematic. What Black Lives Matter meant for so many people who were confused and frustrated, and of course, police brutality against black people is not. anything new. But when Trayvon Martin happened, it just rocked. It's so much, especially with

social media becoming so big and so widespread and how we were all connected. I know myself, I was angry, I was confused, and to see people rise up and come together with Black Lives Matter and what that stood for and represented and what it meant, I, like, hey, we matter too, was a big deal. And that was 2013. And it is, and it carries on to the. this day. 2020, after the information came out, the truth about Rihanna Taylor and Amad Arbery, and we watched what happened as George Floyd, yes, we saw corporations respond to public pressure because of the motivation and the movement behind Black Lives Matter.

Now, of course, we've seen that fly to the wayside, but it still was because of what this meant to so many of us and how loud and big it was. And if you're going to talk about that, then you have to talk about it from the other side. And that is why I can't let Lil Yadi off the hook and how irresponsible he was with this statement. There's so much more to it. So I don't disagree.

This is what I'll say. And it's kind of what I'm trying to wrestle with even as we do this podcast in the way that we talk. So the reason why I think you made a great point at the outset, all of those are great points. The reason why I think you made a great point at the outset is because he spoke as if he was, was an authority on it. Yep.

So once you do that, you have a responsibility to have a layered, deeper view and understanding of the subject that you're talking about. I completely understand that. What I will say is this is what I'm starting to learn as I have more conversations is just how powerful the prevailing narrative of something is. This is why I think that our podcast always needs to be sharp. We always need to be able to talk. We always need to be able to have conversations about the actuality of things. But you put the drink down? You're like, you always need to be sharp.

You like, push drink. Pause. I mean, drinks, hey! Now look, it, because I think we need to take the prevailing narrative and then dissect it or sometimes doing an autopsy on it. And I guess that's the same thing.

And then, you know, display the pieces for people, which is essentially what we're trying to do right now. But I will say that we also have a responsibility in creating the prevailing narrative. Or what we let be understood, said, and taken as truth, right? That's why you don't put yourself in the position

where your words, you try not to put yourself in the position. where your words can be misconstrued or where your actions can be can look off to people. You have to be buttoned up if your responsibility is to take care of an oppressed

and assailed people. Doesn't mean you're going to be perfect. But it does mean that we need to learn lessons from what happened at the Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation and understand that that's kind of what comes with it.

Because Lil Yati is a black person that's saying that. And I'm saying this because I can't tell you how many black people I meet on a daily basis. I'm not talking about Trump black people. I'm not talking about far-right conservative black people that say those ladies were scamming. And part of the reason why they say that is because, once again, they're on the lookout for the black people that are not really for black people. they're on the lookout for the people that are the sellouts that are making backroom deals

that are getting rich off of it and if you get their dandera or if you raise their attenna in any way then that's what they brand you guys because they're trying to keep themselves safe so yeah

I get what you're saying and I guess for me when I saw that I was like well he's wrong I don't even know if he knows that he's wrong. It doesn't matter. Same thing, sexy red, Donald Trump, $1,500 checks. I don't know if he knows that he's wrong,

but the narrative is so thick at this point that I see why he's regurgitating that. Not trying to chew the bill, just trying to go, well, it's not like people don't think that. And if we're in 2016, it's one thing, if we're on the other side of it, that's kind of our job to, explain the differences between

what happened at the centralized organization and like how it exists everywhere else. But you're not wrong. All of that to say, I think you made the point that makes sense right there. Because he had to like, he knew what the fuck he was talking about.

And I wish you guys could hear it. I wish you could have said it. Shut up, Rachel. I'm sorry. It's going to take some bit used to. Yeah, it is rough. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support.

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Made to keep up with whatever comes next. New sweetgreen wraps hit different. Order now at order. about sweetcreen.com. Let's talk about Stephen A. Smith. Well, actually, this is more about Chris Cuomo and Tucker Carlson. Chris Cuomo had Tucker on his News Nation show recently. Long conversation, they talked for almost three hours about a whole bunch of different things.

And one of the things that they talked about was DEI and race. Carlson said during this back and forth that the meritocracy to be judged by what you do, not what you look like. Every institution in American life has abandoned that standard and now has something called DEI or diversity thing. And then they kind of talked about race as a concept, race being a social construct or an actual thing. But I feel like during their conversation, Tucker's white supremacist's views kind of started

to bubble up to the surface. He, I'll read this quote and then I'll let you guys take it. He said, I have a simple solution for this. It's called standardized testing. And it was created in order to solve the problem that you just described, which is bias. It's like, okay, let's just pick people on the basis of their intelligence, their aptitudes, and aptitude test. And that kind of worked actually. And the truth is darker and harder to deal with, okay?

Which is that intelligence is a product of environment to some extent. But it's mostly genetic. And as we got better at sorting the smart people and sending them to Harvard and McKinsey, you know, on a private equity, it became more obvious. So Tucker Carlson is doubling down on the white male orthodoxy and saying that if we remove DEI or anything that seeks to promote diversity and inclusion, that will end up with a society that is dominated by particularly white males. And maybe a couple of other groups in there too, because they are just smarter than us,

and that is a genetic fact. Um, okay. So this is, he mainstreamed this. Chris Cuomo, I don't know what's Chris Cuomo. You don't know what he was doing. He wasn't, either he wasn't ready, I watched this, either he wasn't ready to have to confront that. I think a lot of these guys are doing the thing

that we wish they would do, but they're just doing a very poor job at it. You know, Gavin Newsom, Steve Bannon, sucking the cock of Steve Bending, sucking the cock of Charlie Kirk. And in this conversation, you have a guy saying that, you know, basically white guys are smarter. And we will run society if you guys don't get in our way with your diversity,

inclusion initiatives. Cool. That's what you're saying. First of all, let's just take the standardized tests. Correct. Let's just take the standardized test. everybody takes the same test at school.

Does everybody take the same test in life? Exactly. Meaning, when you take the test, are you hungry? When you take the test, did you take two buses to get to school? When you take the test, did you get prepped for the test? Did you go to a school where they spent X amount of time getting you ready for that test? Give an example of something. GIFTA program, Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

I was in it. The Gifted program needs to have a certain score on the PSAT, the ACT, all of that stuff. They want you to do good on that stuff. So while the rest of the kids are fucking around trying to pay out of pocket to have SAT tutors and different people like that and all of that stuff, the GIFTA program is using class resource and time to get the kids in that program ready to take that test because it reflects on how well their specially funded program is doing. Advantage comes into this.

There's no way to divorce American success from the reality of American inequality. And listen, man, I know. Part of worshiping at the throne of whiteness, of white maleness, is the inherent belief that God just blessed you with a set of betterness that no other group of people can approach. I get it. I know that you guys have to believe that. And I also know that you will rip this world to shreds to protect that idea.

I've got bad news for you. It's just not true. And I kind of think that there's a fear here that if we do work to make the playing field more equal that you'll find out that it's not true. And that's really what you're scared of. Of course. Your point about standardized testing. One, absolutely right.

I remember when I was studying for the, to take the L-SAT to get into law school. And I took one prep course, took a second prep course, and the guy said, looked around the room and was like, this test is a majority of you here. This test is written for northeastern white males. And his example was the prompts that you're reading. He's like, he was saying culturally, most of you don't have any type of affinity to these things. Like you, like for me, at the time, I wasn't skiing. So I remember there would be like all these prompts about skiing and stuff and that type of culture.

And so I'm just trying to figure out and understand that before I'm even trying to understand what the question is that's being asked. It's those kinds of things of standard testing that also leave us at a disadvantage. The other thing, he brings up this point about standardized testing. That only applies to education and going through that way to get a job. We're still discriminated against in other areas that have no, where there is no standardized testing. So he wants to say, well, if everybody takes a standardized test, everybody takes a standardized test that that evens things out. But that's why I said,

when you said that about life, because there are other areas in life that don't require standardized testing. So then what? So then how do we start off on an even playing field for that? He's only talking about one specific sector. Do you remember when Tucker Carlson,

his text messages were released and it said all these things that were damning about Trump and the network. He was trying to get his son into school? And all of that, right? But one of the things he said was he had text the producer and he talked about watching these three men jump this man from Antifa.

And remember he said, and I don't know if we talked about this on the podcast, but he made the comment where he said, jumping a guy like that is dishonorable, obviously. It's not how white men fight. And so, you know, challenge everybody to go listen to this entire. Yeah, challenge everybody to go listen to this entire conversation. But I'm bringing that up to show the mindset that Tucker Carlson has.

And it proves the point, which I did think Chris Cuomo gave better pushback than some of the other places that you name. But one of the things Chris Cuomo talks about is how black people came into this country and how they've always been in a disadvantage and these systems haven't worked for them. And then Tucker Carlson's pushback is, well, it's a meritocracy and this is why you have standardized testing and all these different things. But if that corrupt mindset of how you see, this isn't how white men fight, meaning you see yourself different. White people are superior. White people don't get down and dirty like that. It shows that that type of mindset is within the corrupt systems. So how do you overcome that if that is how you think?

It was proving the entire point. I wish Chris Cuomo would have brought that up. The way that you think is why we're at a disadvantage. And no standardized testing, no system on merits is going to change the inherent ways you feel about people that don't look like you, gender and race. And that's the whole problem. And that's what I need them to see. And also it's, first of all, it's just, also it's just lies, right?

So like, how do white men fight? Okay, so let me tell you, that's not how white men fight. White men don't fight. Well, I know one way that white men fight. I know one way they fight is on horseback with ropes and torches where they get you. And it's fucking 15 of them.

And not only is it 15 of them, but they are the police chief and the mayor. and the postman and all of the people in power. And they round you up and they cut your dick off and they hang you from a tree in front of your kids. Right? I know, I'll like me to fight.

They burn your shit down. They firebomb you from above. Like, what history based upon fair fighting from Western Europeans is he's talking about? Exactly. Is he talking about the Pequot massacre? Is he like what, like what is he talking about? Like even that.

And then even when he talks about meritocracy, Those text messages that you were just talking about, there's a text message in there of Tucker Carlson texting Hunter Biden to try to get his son into Georgetown. That text message exists. Meritocracy for whom? By the way, not only is he texting someone to try to get his kid into Georgetown,

he's texting who his side says is the skirt. urge of the earth, pulling out any and all stops to get an extra advantage for his son that Khalil, Chamequah, and Jamikwa and Jamal from South Baton Rouge don't happen. We know that you don't believe in that. What you want to protect is the near religious belief in the superiority of whiteness. We don't believe in anymore. Right. A three white dudes playing 21 a couple of days ago.

I'm sorry. I don't think, no. I don't believe it. I don't believe it. And I saw they were playing 21 and I was like, actually, I was mad. I watched them play 21 and I was like, man, what kind of game did they, how did that happen? I saw them play 20. It was all elbows and knees.

And so like, well, I'm saying is I don't, I'm not, look, love to everyone. I think with equal opportunity, what you'll see is a much more diverse. leadership, coalition, not just in America, but everywhere. Making jokes about the 21 thing. I don't want to get into dismissing people. But I'm just saying, Tucker, thank you. I appreciate it. I really enjoyed it.

I like it when they do that. I know you do. But you made a really good point. You're asking for equality. that's it at the end of the day. Just to be on an even playing field, I think it's interesting when you were talking about the way white men fight because white men do fight like that

and then they're trying to take that away. They're trying to take that out of the history books that that is how white man fight. Or when black people do do things that, which we've talked about at great length on this podcast, when they do do things that are profitable and successful and they rise above it, despite not being able to start off on the same even playing field as you,

you take that away and you erase it. You fight. You fight again. And you take that away. And you erase the way that you fought and you erase the success of black people all at the same time. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriatic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you?

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Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about trimfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips.

Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those WeatherTech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Rachel, how much water are you drinking lately? I got a bottle right here. I try. I'm not great at it.

I really try to be better. I've been killing it on the water. What's your system? How can I be better? How can we be better? How are you doing it? I'm wondering how much water people are drinking.

And let me tell you why I'm wondering, because I got a surprise. Donnie, I got a zag for Rachel. I got a zag for Rachel and she needs to be hydrated for this Zach. This is not Miranda. Okay.

Van Zag. I was watching Sam Cedar on Jubilee. You guys? I just want to say some. I'm watching so much. I'm becoming I'm on the road to socialism.

I think everybody knows that. I'm rethinking everything, man. I don't think I've been far enough to the left. I think I got work to do. All right. I'm reading about it. I've already, I've always been there.

But I'm finding so much more. I love unlocking my brain. Okay. Okay. I'm talking to you about me going to talk to the Democrats and Lanz out of Maryland in the second at the Democratic retreat. Talk to all the Democrats, met them all.

A lot of people want to come on in Ireland. They love you. Oh, nice. Tell everybody hey. In this Jubilee argument, or 20 against one, you guys should go all watch it, this Jubilee situation.

There was a conversation that was had. The conversation was between Sam and one of the conservatives. This guy was kind of a Christian nationalist. They had a Christian nationalist. They had a white nationalist. They had the dumbest person I've ever seen on the internet. And there was a conversation that came up,

and I want to ask you a question. To you, can you have true morality without religion? And if so, what is the framework for that morality? Sam was challenged by a guy. who says that morality comes from divinity, and it comes from thoughts on down from God, who gives you the laws, the best laws for man. And without that framework,

the framework of the eternal and the divine, you can't truly be moral because you're making the rules up as you go along. For example, if morality is about a societal pact, then that societal path. Pact is ever changing. The age of consent can move.

Like if society gets together and decides that there's a purge. Well, now the purge is essentially something that's legal. It's an agreed upon pact. So do you need some type of spiritual background? Well, there's a difference. Is it religion or is it spiritual? Well, if it comes down to rules, it's probably going to be religious because spirituality to me, this is the way I look at it. Spirituality to me is the belief in the divine and connecting with the universe.

Religion is the rules. Correct. That's why I'm saying, which one are you saying? Religion or spirituality? I'm talking about basically simplifying it. Can you be moral without believing in God? So that's not religion? Yeah.

I think you can. Because when I think of morality, yes, what is moral to you is a construct. What is moral to you can change. Your values, what you value can change. But I think when you come down to everybody knows the difference of what is right and wrong. To me, that is the foundation of morality. The belief in right versus wrong. So I believe that you cannot believe in a higher being and still understand what it is to be a good person and what it is to not do wrong by people.

And if that's how I, if that's the way I look at morality, I don't think that that needs to be anchored into a higher being for you to be that person. I think that that's an excuse to say that you can't, that you can't be both, like that you can't believe in a higher being and still, and that makes you an awful person. I think that's, that's something that a religious person tied to a religion would say. Uh, yeah. That's how I, I don't, I don't understand how you can't believe in a higher being, but I do not think that that makes you void of morality.

Because there is nature versus nurture and you can be raised by people who poured into you what's good and what's right and all of that. And so I, and so just because you choose not to anchor that into. to some sort of deity, I don't think that that makes you void of being it. Because the opposite, I mean, there are people who are anchored in religion who have no morals,

who are awful people. So let me say this. This is, well, first of all, my answer is, of course you can be moral without religion, right? Of course you can be moral. All right. because I think a couple of things. I think number one, a lot of our morals are based in pro-evolutionary traits.

Things that produce outcomes that are good for humanity. Cooperation. We made tribes. We took care of our young. We made units. We did a lot. All of those things are pro-evolutionary traits. These are things that foster.

advancement in human beings. And we orient morals around those things. We say it's good to share because we know that sometimes people are hungry. It's good to wait for someone that's not as fast as you because we realize that people are born with certain innate advantages sometimes. And you might need to reorient, not based on race, but you might need to reorient things so that everybody has an equal share. I think with a lot of the research that I've done, even in animal kingdoms, there is an innate sense of fairness. They know when things aren't fair.

They know when things aren't right. I think that we try to orient our society and who we are around fairness, around sherry, around cooperation. The fact that there are laws is us attempting to separate ourselves from animals who aren't guided by any sense of morality. they're guided by dog eat dog lion eat lying all of that stuff right some people would say that comes down from divinity I think that comes down from I believe in God I believe in a higher power but I think that people at their core need each other and want to understand how they can live with each other now they're always going to be fights they're always going to be wars

but even those wars are going to be based upon outside interlopers that you don't think are you. That's the biggest problem with people. It's we talked about it. It's not the tribe itself. It's the lack of treaty making with the other tribe. Anytime you don't think that somebody is you, anytime you don't think someone is less, anytime you think someone is less than you,

that's when the domination occurs. I'll go so far as to say this. I think that if I were to stack up my friends and the people that I know, the ones that are atheists, are far more moral than the ones that call and identify themselves as deviled Christians. And I am really sorry that that is the case, but that is... Why do you think that's the case? I've been thinking about it, and I'm not quite sure. I think it may be a couple of things. One, I think the idea of everlasting forgiveness

makes some people a little reckless with how they go about living their life. I really do believe that. I know that's very simplistic, but I've been in situations with people before where they go, I'm going to have to lie on God, I'm going to have to do this, and then I'm just going to have to ask for forgiveness, right?

Yeah. I also think that Christianity itself, because we were talking about Christianity, they were talking about Christianity on this show, it comes with a set of rules and a set of regulations that really, to be honest with you, don't work for everyone. Like, particularly the Old Testament stuff.

The New Testament stuff, which is more to the point, Christianity is about love and forgiveness and acceptance and tolerance. However, that is just not what Christianity is right now. By and large, in a large way, it's just not about acceptance and tolerance and sharing and raising up the poor. And the way that it's been co-opted now,

what I see it, I don't see people, to be honest with you, that have a tremendous want or need to look out for people outside of their tribes, the non-Christians. Look out for people outside of their tribes, the gay. Look out for people outside of their tribes, the people that are trans or people that aren't like them.

I don't see the need for them to do any of that stuff. It just doesn't exist anymore. There's, like, I'm around and I know, especially when I'm back home, a lot of good, God-fearing people who just want to take care of people, But there's always hierarchy involved. And I think when sometimes,

just in my experience right now at this particular point in my life and I'm thinking about it, when you are forced to navigate this world without an insurance policy that is someone that is going to gift you forgiveness for everything that you do, you kind of have to deal with your shit a little bit more.

And what I'm seeing are a lot of people that look at the world through the lens of, and I'm not one of them, I have a deep and unfailing belief in God. I just, it's just a part of me. Like, I get here. I drive out to my dad's, to my dad's grave, always do that first thing when I get here. And on the way there, it's like the first time I visited every single time. I don't know what's going on. like the first time I visited every single time. Heart starts beating, start having arrhythmia, start getting sweaty, start welling up. And I just go, God, please help me. Please help me not to

lose it on my way here. Please help me just say what's up, take it all in, and get back. And I sit still for a while, I turn the radio off, and my prayers are answered. And I pray and talk to God and manifest things and that deal is gone good for me. I've been protected and covered in as far as I'm concerned. However there's no however to that there's a I'm adding on to it. What I'm saying is now

when I ask people why like some of my friends who don't cheat on their spouses or some of my friends who don't over gamble or whatever, I'm, over gamble or whatever. These people aren't religious.

I'm just being, I'm being completely honest right now. Do you think that's because they create their own? Probably. Based off of what's good, what they feel is good and right, moral, what they value, rather than tying it to a rule or some type of regulation,

it's more of the golden rule. I mean, yeah. It feels like that. Right now, the right is captured by the Christian fundamentalists, right? Like, they have their candidate, they run it. They're the ones that say they don't give a fuck if Ethiopian kids die because they don't want to spend $50 million in USA money. They're the ones that wanted to let two, like, protein packs of peanut butter go bad in two different states.

So these Ethiopian kids die. They're the ones that are saying, like, we want to cut your snap benefits. They're the ones that are saying, they're the ones that are not feeding the hungry. They're the ones that are saying, I want to eat, I want to eat, I want to eat, I want to eat, you eat after me.

I just don't feel like at this point, I can pretend like there's any inherent morality in what I see from a lot of the religious movements that exist. Now, I don't want to cast a wide net on all of them and put them all under that net or that umbrella. I don't want to do that

because once again I think it's a personal relationship and I've been feed, fed, clothes, taken in shit, nurtured by Christians

my entire life. I'm from, you know, down here in the south. And, you know, something about people just don't want to see you go hungry

when I was growing up. You guys could talk all the shit you wanted to talk about Jimmy Swagger. And Jimmy Swagger. was out there throwing his dick around and doing that whole thing, that man did not want to see you be hungry. He did not want to see you be hungry.

And he was all fucked up and all of this shit happened and all of that. I get it all. But there was something, I guess, different there that I don't feel now, maybe because I'm in Los Angeles. Anyway, so, but what I'm saying is, like, not only do I think that you can have morality without having a specific religious code, I think religion has lost its morality.

Or maybe it never had it. If you look at the history of the world, I don't know that there's any inherent morality that goes along with being a Christian. Well, I will say, if you look at the New Testament and the Gospels, there was morality in Jesus. That's what he taught. And I frequently do say that I understand

with the current state of the world in Christian nationalists why people would struggle wanting to be a Christian. Christians come off, Christianity has been so politicized. To me, it is so far from what the teachings of Jesus will,

so we're talking Christianity, that it's lost its way. And so if you are talking about morality in the context of Christianity, I think if you look at, that was wrapped up in Jesus. It was wrapped up in all those stories you see in those first four books of the Bible.

I'm not saying it only lived there. I'm just specifically talking about that. It was there. And I often say, it's so funny that you guys don't accept this because according to the Bible, Jesus would have. Jesus would have done this.

Jesus wouldn't have. There's nothing Christ-like about the behavior that I see a lot from these Christian nationalists. At his core, though, Jesus was a humanist. That's what I'm saying. I know. He, you know, like at his core,

Jesus was a humanist. Jesus was a, Jesus was a low tax Like you know what I'm saying Like Jesus was Like if you Jesus was if you don't have food I'll feed you God

Jesus was if you don't have salvation I'll help you God Jesus was a If you don't have direction Jesus was the biggest Most cosmic social safety net I've ever seen

Jesus was like If you are dead, you've died. Don't worry, I'll bring you back to life. Like literally, like, you're dead. Like, forget about you, you short on your rent. You're dead. I'll bring you back to life. And so now, like, when I think about the people that I'm talking to about how to make

the world a better place, man, these people don't be religious, man. These people, these people, a lot of times, sometimes I wonder, well, I'll ask them. like why do you care? Like something they'll say like Gibral Gibral. Jibril is a diehard atheist and sometimes it gets on my goddamn nurse. Like, nigga, can I worship?

Get out of my face. Like, can I worship? Can I love God? Is that okay? Just get out. You don't have to. Like, he's a, I don't want that. Continent dissonance. Shut up. Using goddamn Harvard shit on me, the goddamn Stanford stuff. I don't want to talk about it. But

he's just a good fucking guy. Way better than me. He's just a good dude because he knows that whatever he takes in the world it's gone and you don't

live with it and there's no forever mulligan. But can I just say this too? How bad is it for you to say because you don't worship the way that I do? You don't have morality. That's also like very anti-Christian. That's what he said. That's what what?

So the guy told Sam, the guy was like, if you don't believe in God, you can't really have any morality. Like that's not price like. Like, well, like what happens to the whole come as you are? What happened to the whole like, how you're supposed to be inviting and bringing people in if that's how you're gatekeeping? If that's how you talk to people, why would anybody want to be a part of that? Like, think about that. Just, just at its core, you, if you don't, if you don't worship like me,

you ain't got no morals. What? Like, what are we doing? All right. Does that? I want to tell you something else. Something else that's immoral. Zigged.

Zagged. Did we do it? Did we get it down? We ziggged. Something else that's immoral. It's immoral how good I look in this light right now. Listen. It's time. Donnie's time.

Let me tell you. something real quick. Just before we go, it's tough. It's a proclamation. I'm still handsome. Okay. All right. Now, where does vanity fall in religion? I used to be fine. Donnie, put some pictures up. I used to be fine. All right? I was, I was fine for a while. There's a picture of me and two white women from the TMZ. Have you ever seen this picture? No. Me and two white women from the TMZ holiday party. You've talked about it before.

You got in trouble for it, didn't you? Yeah, can I show you this picture, We might not be able to post that picture up. But yes, go ahead. For me, like, I own the picture, like me and two white women. And in this picture, Rach, you're going to see it.

I'm not just handsome in this picture. I'm fine. Dims was the days, but I still got it, though. You say it, like you have to be on the defense. Nobody has said you weren't. Nobody has tried to take that away from you. On this podcast, on this podcast, nobody's trying to take that away from you. Come at me all the time.

Y'all go to vae, y'all go give Van his flowers. No, no, no, nope, nope, no, don't need it. Don't need it. It is funny, though. So you people that send these messages and stuff, you know, I see these messages. And my real deal problem is that if you diss me and it's funny, I just, I got to laugh. This is one guy that no matter what I say, he goes about that and focus on the show. Let's bring him on the pub.

I feel like, yo, man, they need to really stop. He's like, that's great. But you should forget about that and make sure that you focus it on the gym. The town of Moni Crisco was, I think, my favorite of recent memory that I heard. Bro, come on, man. That was great.

That's funny. Oh, the Count of Monty Crisco is hilarious. That's hysterical. How could I be him? how could I be the count of Monty Crisco? That's funny. What's the funniest diss that you've gotten about yourself, Rich? I mean, I told you at the time that I was a kid and the guy,

we were like going back and forth with disses and he put his hand over my head and saying I got the whole world in my hands. That was all I could do was run home and cry. I mean, it was good. I was like 10. You cried over? I did. That was in my cry baby era.

I definitely cry. It's funny. It's funny now that I think about it. But yeah, I mean, in front of a whole, all the neighborhood kids, yeah, that was embarrassing. And then they dish the shit out of you? No, I mean, I definitely was known for having a big forehead. All right. That forehead out today.

All right. We got to go. We got to go. I want to send you this picture, though. Send me the picture. Let me, give me five seconds to find the picture. Rachel can react to it. This is one of my best ones.

Has he shown this on the podcast before, Donnie? I'm picturing it. So I think you might have. Like, I feel like I've seen it. I'm seeing it in my head. Me and all black with the two white women behind me, by me? Because they're like not fully dressed or something, right? No, they're fully dressed.

You don't know what the hell you're talking about. Hold on real quick. I couldn't find the picture. That just shows you that it's not. My shit is in the past, man. I'm back down now. I was up. You'll find it.

You'll find it. You'll find it. We'll bring it on the next podcast. How about that? Yeah, whatever. I'd love to make space for the picture. Yeah, just have fun still being in your prime. But in this life, I'm the nigger.

You and yours. I take your case. I think caps off and do not stop learning. I'm Val A valet the Jr. I'm Rachel Lynn, Lindsay. Bye, guys. I found a picture. Oh, God.

I gotta go. You got to go. We over here talking about the podcast, and he's over here. You'll try to find him up with you. Rachel, look at your shit. I took my stuff out already. I'm not recorded.

See, take you to use the Zoom. Look at my. Look at me. And they are fully clothed. Yeah. Never see this picture. Where is this? This is at the TMZ

holiday party. You look. I don't I can't even see you. I see them on you. Right. These are two girls who are they? Two girls that worked at TMZ their TMZ co-workers. They want to take a picture

with the kid. But look, look at me. Be honest. Be honest. In that picture. I got it. Not the kid. Okay, nobody doubted you. But like, did you have to show me a picture of you with two white women fawning over you? Is that, does that what made you feel like you got it? Because you were white, um, verified? You were verified by white women?

It just happens to be, it just happens to be the best picture I've ever taken. And it happens to be that it's white women in the picture. That's all I'm saying. It has nothing to do with that. Donnie, be honest. I look handsome in that picture. Do I not? You look good.

You look good. You look handsome right now, too, even slouching in this. Zoom meeting. So like, it's just, it's a, I've had enough. I've had enough. Bye. Bye. All right, y'all.