Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - A Higher Learning Rewind: Animal Welfare and the Return of Animal Games

Episode Date: December 27, 2024

Van and Rachel are joined by Chris Draper of the Performing Animal Welfare Society to discuss providing sanctuary and care for former performance animals (0:00), before welcoming Dr. Lauren Howard to talk about her role as director of veterinary services for the San Diego Zoo Safari Park (23:34). Then, Animal Games makes it’s long anticipated return to the podcast (49:05). Hosts: Van Lathan Jr. and Rachel Lindsay Guests: Dr. Chris Draper and Dr. Lauren Howard Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

All right, guys, we've been having an ongoing discussion here about animals. You guys know how much I love animals. I might be considered the world's foremost animal lover. But there are questions that arise when you're a lover of animals. What's okay? What is it? Some people say, it's great to have zoos where you can go learn about animals. Others say let the animals go.

Some people say it's great to have circuses where you can go and see animals form. Others say, no, cruel, bad. We had a conversation here on a podcast about zoos, about circuses, about all different types of things, but we realize we don't know what the hell we're talking about. So we brought in somebody who does. Chris Draper, who's the chief operations officer of performing animal welfare society. Performing animal welfare society is better known as Paus.

What cute name. Pause is dedicated to the protection of performing animals to providing sanctuary to abuse, abandoned, and retired captive wildlife to enforcing the best of standards of care for all captive wildlife to the preservation, shall say, of wild species and their habitat and to promoting public education about captive wildlife issues. Chris joins us today on higher learning. Thank you for joining us. Chris, my first question. Are circuses okay? Circuses with animals, circuses with wild animals in particular, I would say are not okay. I think there's a very clear difference between what wild animals.

animals have evolved to need and the life that they can be given in a travelling circus. And if you think about life in a circus, it's not just what goes on in the ring. You know, you think of a circus and animals performing tricks in a ring and maybe it doesn't seem so bad, you might think. But then think about what the animal is doing when it's not in the ring. And that will be most of a 24-hour period. It'll be not performing, not in a ring. It'll be stuck in, generally speaking, what is a small travelling enclosure, quite often on the back of a vehicle. And it'll be separated from members of its own species. It'll be sensory deprived.

It'll be in a really unnatural situation, something that really doesn't sit well with these animals' needs and their biology. So I would say it's pretty clear, you know, on the basis of evidence that circus is using animals is really something that needs to belong in the past. Like, not, I guess my question isn't how did we get here, but how are we still here? I would think that with so many, you know, activists out there and we're now way more knowledgeable about, you know, the behind the scenes of what's happening with these wild animals, how, how will we still? here? I think that's a really good question. And it's not despite a lot of effort that's gone in to get to where we are now. And there have been some significant successes and significant developments where, for example, several states and other local areas in the in the US have bands on something that's called a bullhook. And that's a curved, sharp stick.

that's used to control and they well the industry would say guide elephants um i think the word guide is is probably sugar coating it to be honest these you know these things are aversive these things are unpleasant for the animal um and they've been banned in a lot of constituencies now they've been banned in some states um and and rightly so and what's really interesting about banning bullhooks is it means that circuses can't bring their elephants anymore. And that's caused. So these bands have caused quite a big change where circuses for the most part are no longer using elephants

in the US. There's still a few that are I would say hanging in there and bucking the trend. But I mean I think their days are numbered. Unfortunately though there's still circuses wanting to use things like big cats and you could argue there's still a demand for people seeing these animals in circuses. And maybe that's what's keeping the last bit of the industry going. But I really think that the tide is turning.

I've seen it in my, not just my lifetime, but my professional lifetime. I've seen attitudes change where the public have gone from thinking that seeing wild animals in circuses and doing tricks as sort of benign and okay and a bit funny. maybe, that people are now very sensitized to it and are really going against that sort of exploitation of animals. And I'm very pleased to see that. So the name of the organization is the Performing Animal Welfare Society. So I'm assuming that there are conditions in which you think performing animals are okay. What would those conditions be? Well, we focus on providing sanctuary and advocacy for animals.

that are used in performances or have been used in performances. Okay. We don't use ourselves in performances, no, very far from it. So we're here to advocate on behalf of those animals that have been used in performances exploited in captivity. And we operate a large-scale animal sanctuary here in California, which is home to seven elephants and eight tigers and three bears and several other species of animals,

all of which that have come from a whole raft of different histories, different places and different means of being exploited. Most of our animals have come from wholly inappropriate situations in circuses and zoos. So are there, I guess I would ask, are there, excuse me, I'm sorry, Rachel. No, no, go ahead, go ahead. Because are there ways to humanely have an animal that performs

because they're animals in movies, they're animals in shows, they're animals that do all kinds of other things, you know, that people find funny or entertaining. What is the way to have an animal that would be performing in something for human beings that would be humane, in your opinion?

Is there a way? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that really there isn't a way. We're dealing with such specialized animals, such specialized creatures that have, in many cases, So take, for example, elephants, you know, they're incredibly intelligent. And obviously, they operate at a scale that is so much bigger than we're used to as humans. Trying to give them a modicum of, you know, a reasonable life in captivity,

it's so, so difficult to even match their basic needs, let alone give them a good quality of life. And I would extend that even to our own facility. You know, it's still captivity. we have to be the first to admit that we're doing our very, very best for the animals that we care for, but it's still not where they belong. These are wild animals and they belong truly wild animals. They belong in the wild. Unfortunately, the damage has been done a long time ago with the animals that we have.

So, for example, our elephants, one of ours is 56 years old. She's the oldest African elephant in North America. She's been caught from the wild, 50-something. years ago. There's no going back for her, unfortunately. She now has to live out the rest of her life in captivity. I'm pleased to say that we're doing our very, very best to give her something towards what she needs as a very intelligent and sensitive animal. But we've got to admit that any form of captivity is always going to be a compromise. And that's why I'm pretty confident when I say that using animals like this in captivity,

making them perform, even if it's something that's relatively harmless, it's what goes on behind the scenes, what goes on for the rest of their lives that we have to take into account. And when we think of that, I come to the conclusion that it's just not humane. You know, I feel I'm from Texas,

and I was shocked. I guess I was outside of Austin. and I went to a, I don't even know if it was a private zoo. It was just somebody who had all this land and they had a giraffe and they had zebras and ostriches. And I had no idea that these privately owned places existed. And apparently there are several in Texas with these wild animals. Oh, yeah. I'm curious because that's something I didn't know that was out there.

how are these better forms? We haven't really gotten into zoos, that question, but are these, is it better because these places have the land? I'm not sure if they have the means or even the facilities or the help to be able to have these wild animals. But, I mean, when I saw it, it looked okay. I'm curious with the work that you do. And are you seeing more of these type of locations popping up around the country?

sure i mean that that sort of situation is is surprisingly common um people are often shocked when you tell them you know just what it is legal to own in terms of wildlife in in in the u.s in in europe you know restrictions are not that strong um and unfortunately that means if you've got if you've got the money you can have exhaustic animals on your on your property on your ranch that kind of thing. And inevitably, they suffer. Inevitably, they're not going to be cared for properly. So, yes, space, you might have a huge property and you might be able to offer animals a fair amount of space. Two things I'd say to that is, one is it's never enough. It's never going to be anything like the space they've evolved to use in their natural habitat. But more than that

is space is just one aspect of their life. Animals, depending on the species, they have enormously complex social needs, social networks in the case of some species. They have a drive to forage, look for food in a very sophisticated manner in some cases, and they're doing it for a great part of their day, using their brains to look for food, look for water.

They've evolved, you know, to avoid predators, to look for social companionship, look for mates. All of these environmental factors are going to be, I would say, next to impossible to replicate or recreate in a private property or a zoo or certainly a circus. You know, even with the best of intentions, that's where we're always going to drop the we're always going to be compromising these animals in some way, sadly. And I have no doubt that there are a lot of people out there that own animals like this, the own exotic animals, and they love these animals.

And I have no doubt about that. And they want to do the best for them. But sadly, love isn't enough. It's got to come from what you're offering these animals to live in. And, I mean, in my experience, I've never seen anyone. do it right. Certainly not for large animals, large mammals. It's so hard for to factor in all these different variables of what these animals need in their life. So yeah, it's just yet another form of exploitation of these animals, unfortunately. And the more that these exotic animals are

allowed to be kept in private hands, the more there's a need for facilities like Horses, Sanctuary or others to offer homes when things go wrong. And from where I sit, it's important that we don't just mop up other people's problems. It's really, really important that we just don't become a dumping ground for animals that are cast off from somebody's pets or from crummy zoos that have shut down or circuses. What we also have to do is try and stop these industries at the very start so that these animals are not being kept and then they're not needing a sanctuary for the rest of their life. Last question for me and then two questions.

One big one and then one small one. Big question is zoos. What part do they play in society at large? Are they positive? Are they negative? Then the second, the question after that is, is it okay for me to have a wolf dog? dark. Okay. Those are some big questions and none of them are little questions. I'll tell you that. So, okay, zoos, right. I will say this about zoos. They're here. There are a lot of them and they

ain't going anywhere in a hurry. Are they doing anything for society? I think it's fair to say there is a demand for people amongst people to see animals. People love animals. You know, you're not alone in being an enormous animal lover. Everybody loves animals. And that's great. We all have this, well, almost all of us have this drive to nature. But that comes at a price and that price is paid sadly by the animals themselves that we keep in zoos. So zoos, arguably, they fulfill a number of objectives. One of them that they talk about a lot is conservation. You hear a lot. You hear a lot from the zoo industry talking about how they're doing an enormous amount of work for conserving the natural world. I'm skeptical when I hear this because I think there's an

enormous disconnect between animals sitting in a cage in, I don't know, Central Park or somewhere and the threat to their natural habitat out in the wild. There's a lot of miles between those two places. And there's a lot of logistical obstacles to ensuring that their habitat and their population survives in the wild just by exposing them to visitors in a city park. So zoos are not doing as much as they would say they are

in relation to keeping endangered species safe. They do raise a bit of money towards conservation. That much I can't deny. But again, is it enough? Is it saving the world? No, of course it's not. It's crumbs from the table. You know, zoos are incredibly expensive things to run.

Feeding animals, running, you know, veterinary care for animals, operating concession stands for visitors, toilets for visitors. You know, all the things that come with being a visitor attraction, hugely expensive. and as a result, the money that they raise is a tiny fraction of their overall costs. So it's not a very efficient way of raising money for conserving the natural world. And frankly, if zoos were doing what they say they're doing for conservation, we wouldn't be in the situation that we are now with populations of, let's say, African elephants, being as low as they are. They're in the tens of thousands.

when zoos first sort of started, and I really only mean 150 years ago, give or take, populations of African elephants were well in the millions. And during that time, they decreased and decreased and decreased. That is so fucking sad, man. It's a travesty. And we're now dealing with a situation, and that's just one species, of course.

We're talking about just to choose one example, where the population has plummeted despite zoos. And this you see repeated, doesn't matter what species you look at, with a handful, and I really mean a handful, tiny handful of exceptions, zoos have done nothing to stop the plummeting population of animal species, particularly mammals and birds out there. You know, there's a crisis going on in the natural world. Nobody should dispute that. There really is.

but the answer does not lie in running visitor attractions so that people can see animals, bored animals in captivity. I really just, I think it's such a, it's such a tantalizingly attractive, but fundamentally flawed idea. And I get it because when I was a kid, I used to go to zoos. I used to love going to zoos. I loved animals. And I've heard it said, you know, when I was a kid, I went to zoos because I loved animals. as an adult, I don't go to zoos because I love animals.

You know, it's that switch that needs to happen in people's minds. You don't need to see a tiger this far from your face through glass in order to care about tigers in the wild. That much is, it's a fallacy that's being perpetrated by zoos, unfortunately. And I think it's a real, real shame. It does animals a disservice, and it does people a disservice. So are they doing education, zoos? Some, not enough to justify their existence, if you ask me.

Are they entertaining people? Yes. And that's why they exist. People like zoos, people like animals. Does it justify them from an ethical point of view? Does it justify them from a practical point of view? Absolutely not, if you ask me. Now, wolf dogs. Well, I mean, I would.

say that is a, it's a very interesting point where there's a lot of hybridization in the pet trade, unfortunately. People keeping Bengal cats and Savannah cats, which are hybrids between domesticated cats and servals and leopard cats. I forget the exact makeup now. And wolf dogs, the worry is, what are you getting when you cross these animals? Are you getting more wolf or are you more domestic dog. You know, don't get me wrong, I'm a big dog lover, but even domestic dogs, some breeds and some individuals can be quite hard to handle.

Introducing Wolf into the mix. Is that really a wise idea? Probably not. I don't even want it now that I talk to you, Chris. I'm not going to be doing. I don't know you did. I don't know. You did. I'm on my job then.

Rach, you got anything else? I, well, what I was just hearing, you talk about the way the cats, too and then the wolf dog it makes me wonder is there any type of animal wild animal that you could have at home because people have so many do is there something not that i'm encouraging it i'm just curious yeah yeah um well my first response to that is you know can we not just focus on on domesticated species the ones that we know about the ones that we um we've sort of co-evolved with, you know, if you think about humans and dogs have co-evolved for tens or hundreds

of thousands of years, we have an understanding of how dogs behave and dogs have an understanding of what it's like to live alongside humans. And they've sort of adapted to living alongside humans. And yet, you look at how badly we treat dogs and how many homeless dogs and cats there are shelters everywhere. And yet people still want to go out and find a new species of exotic to keep. It breaks my heart. I mean, honestly, it's, let's deal with what we've created before we go out looking for more.

I think with all these discussions of captivity, and that's really what we're talking about here, yes, you probably can find smaller, less complex species that may not know they're in captivity.

And if that's the case, and you are genuinely providing all their needs, then I think that there is, is maybe less of a concern about their welfare. And I'm talking really things like maybe amphibians like frogs and nukes and salamanders. That smaller stuff like that may not really know or care that they're in captivity. But I think with most of the stuff that you might be thinking, I mean bigger stuff, furry stuff with feathers, anything,

whether it be in a zoo, a circus or being kept as a pet, anything you, you know, when you put them in a, in confinement, you're causing a problem. And adding another species to the roster of animals that we might, that we're doing bad things to, it kind of, you know, it's not necessary. If anyone wants talking about, you know, exotic pets, if they want to get something, rescue something, go to the shelter. You might even be able to rescue an exotic, you know, there's plenty of reptiles and snakes being,

snakes like, you know, being dumped because people don't want them anymore. There's now, you know,

they're already out there in the pet trade. Don't buy them. Don't, don't start a demand for a new type. Go out and rescue and offer a good home.

Do your research. Do get the right equipment. Ask experts. Genuine experts. Don't, you know, Dr. Google is not a good, a good expert on many of us.

Fortunately. Chris, I'm coming to see you guys, Are you welcome any time? Be delighted to show you around what we do. I'm going to come up there. Scones on me. I can tell you like a good scone.

Always. Scones on me. That's Chris Draper. I say scone. Scone. It's scone. Am I wrong? Scone.

He's never going to say it the other way again. Scone. Scone. In the UK, whether you say scone or scone. Okay. Scones on me, man. I'm going to come up there and hang out with you guys. That's Chris Draper, everybody.

I hope that you learn something from him. Pause. is the organization. Is there a particular place that people go to donate or to get more information if they are so inclined, Chris? If they could go to our website,

it's www.org. Okay. That's Chris Draper. Thank you so much for joining us on higher learning, Chris. Okay, higher learning family, we are getting to the bottom of what's best for animals.

And we have someone here who can help us with answers to that question. we have Lauren Howard of the San Diego Zoo. Lauren Howard is the director of veterinary services for the San Diego Zoo Safari Park. What a fantastic situation. Overseas the care of more than 3,000 animal residents of the park. Lauren is also called upon to provide veterinary consultation and assistance for animals and natural habitats working to overcome challenges arising as someone.

of these species are threatened with extinction. Houston Zoo, San Diego Zoo, and the San Diego Zoo Safari Park. Lauren, thank you so much for joining us here on Higher Learning. I want to tell you something. I've recently become obsessed with animals. Just recently? I've always loved animals, but recently I've really become obsessed with the plight of animals in our world, in our natural world.

And there are all these questions that are arising in them. my head. Like, how do you be an advocate for animals? You know, my relationship with Mountain Lion, my relationship with P-22, talked a lot to Dr. Beth Pratt. And we have a central question here on higher learning, which is what are the, what is, should I say, the place of zoos in conservation, protection, and advocating for animals? We had somebody on the other side here. an activist that is against the concept of a zoo. We have you, Lauren, here, someone who's dedicated their lives to the care of animals,

and I would assume the conservation of animals. What role do zoos play in this? Are zoos a good thing or a bad thing? That's a great question about the role of zoos today as far as taking care of animals and conservation. And, you know, the role of zoos has changed and evolved over the past, several decades. And even in my course of the last 20 years that I've been a zoo professional. And I'm really proud of what zoos are now and what zoos are striving to be and what zoos will be in

the future. When they started out, they were just menageries collections of animals. And then it was more about figuring out the best way to care for the animals and how do you feed this animal versus that animal. And now it's all about connecting to our wild, our truly wild places, which are fewer and far between every year, unfortunately, and recognizing that the work we do in the walls of, you know, our two institutions, the zoo in the park,

and at zoos across the country and across the world, is about using our skills and our access and our ability to impact to take what we've learned with our animals and our walls, and spread it across the world and share our expertise to ensure that we have keeping biodiversity very high in as many places as we can. Dr. Howard, when I listen to you, explain it, it all makes perfect sense. You know, I understand why you do what you do. It seems to benefit the animals, but then there's this other side to it. Why is there another side of it when the things that you do?

you're doing and as you explain them are beneficial to animals. Yeah, it's a really complex topic. And it's people take it very personally. You know, when you say you've, you've become obsessed with animals, so many people are. And they take their own experiences, their own experiences with animals they have in their lives. And they apply it pretty broadly. So it's a very personal topic for a lot of people. Even people who've never seen an elephant in person feel very strongly about if elephant should be under he's care. So that's what makes it. it kind of a sticky, sticky conversation. What we look at is that wild animals are on a continuum. And the one end of the continuum is your dog in lying on your couch right now, enjoying peace

and quiet while you're at work. And the other end of the continuum is those truly, truly wild spaces where animals do not have borders or fences or do not require human management. Now, even in most of those wild spaces, there's still some degree of human management because someone has to keep those spaces protected and, you know, do things like make sure domestic animals aren't introducing disease or tourists aren't introducing disease and that kind of thing. So it's really just this giant continuum, like so many things in life. And the question is, where do you fall in the continuum of belief? And we believe strongly that we need to secure all of our wild spaces and the animals and plants

that live in them. And we've dedicated our lives, everything in our lives, our professional lives, to make that happen and to ensure that all life thrives, whether it's, you know, P-22 in the middle of L.A. Or if it's animals, orangutans, trying to get across palm oil forest in Asia. So it is a complex question. I think some people really attach their own feelings to animals

that they see under human care. And everyone wants to see animals in an area where there are no fences. and no borders. But right now there aren't enough safe wild spaces for those animals. So we're going to continue to do everything we can to keep the animals that we do care for safe and healthy and then develop the expertise so we can take that on the road and help those animals and other wild places as well. To that point, there are several animals that are under threat of extinction.

They, you know, just the, Warren, let me be real with you. The more I love animals, the less I love people. It's just mean. It's mean. I think of P-22 bravely crossing freeways. I think of animals that are trying to live their lives. I look at all this open space out here in Los Angeles.

I see a bunch of buildings. And I think, you know, maybe there should be more mountain lion out there doing their thing. So what I'm wondering now is for someone who wants to be involved, who wants to split the baby here, who it's not about the zoos, it's not about no zoos, it's about the animals himself. Like what does a regular normal person do to ensure that these species that are threatened receive the support and help that they need to have numbers where they can thrive again in the wild? Do zoos? help threaten species?

Zoo is definitely help threatened species. There's a lot of ways we contribute. Like I said, we develop the expertise. So if there's a medical condition or a challenge and trying to feed a certain animal, we can get that sorted out. So then if we are ready to introduce that species, that's not a limiting factor. There's a lot of decisions people can make in their everyday lives just to contribute to a green or more sustainable planet.

And it's all connected, you know, reduce. you know, all of your consumption, reducing your carbon footprint. All of that contributes to reducing climate change. And climate change is definitely a threat to a lot of our wild spaces and our wild species and our biodiversity. So even if you don't have a thousand dollars to donate to a conservation project, the simple act you make every day and the decisions you make and the decisions you teach your children to make about drinking straws and plastic bottles and all that, that helps everything we're

trying to do. Now, at the San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance, we have eight different conservation hubs focused in different areas in the world where we have a lot of amazing conservation program. Everything from relocating animals to community engagement, behavior change, trying to reduce consumption of animal parts. And there's a lot of great information on our website about different ways to help there. At a zoo, can an animal really live the life they intended to live? That is a really good question. Can an animal really live the life that's intended to live? The way animals live under human care, it does look a little bit different than the way animals live when they're in a truly wild space. It's kind of like living with your parents,

actually, where some things are better and some things are worse, you know, because there's, there's no threat of predators when they're under human care at a zoo or safari park. Usually food is pretty consistent, although we do try to offer it in ways that it's not the exact same time and place all the time. So there's a little bit of change there. You play war games with the animals. Yes. This is what I like to hear.

What do you do? I'll do this with Bozeman. Like, what do you, like, what do you, like, you, you play wily games with the animals so they have to hunt their food? This is what I'm into, Lauren. Yeah, yeah. Like, there's, they have these, what we call stable feeders. So this is taken from, you know, domestic horses.

that we can use for our elephants. And they're basically a timed vending machine for hay. So we can put them in different areas, and they go off at completely random times, and they're not associated with a person. So the elephants have to pay attention and notice when something like that happens. We do a lot of scatter feeding for some of our animals,

and some of our carnivores, we do occasional carcass feeding, where instead of, you know, their typical diet of, you know, a healthy balanced meat diet will actually give them a part or a whole lamb carcass, say, for them to use all those natural behaviors. So there's a lot of different ways we can change things up and keep things interesting. So we are trying to mimic and not mimic, but induce or encourage natural behaviors as much as possible. Now there are some things that, you know, we can't mimic in the wild.

Like in San Diego, the weather is amazing all the time. And actually, our rhino team had created a year-long focus on weather change for the rhinos. They called it the big year. And they mimicked the four seasons that those white rhinos would have seen in Africa, including creating like a flood and lots of water in the habitat at a certain time of year. And they even worked with nutrition to change the kind of food they gave them to mimic, like, in this time of year, they wouldn't get this very, very succulent stuff. They would get drier stuff.

So that's one of the things that's so inspiring about working a place like this is everyone's thinking all the time and using their own skills and their own experiences to figure out how to make things better for the animals. And as the veterinary team, you know, we're a part of that, but we're not the only ones. Everyone's doing a great job here. Can you tell if the animals are happy? Can you tell if the animals are happy? I look at my dog sometimes and I wonder that too because she kind of has the doleful look on her face all the time.

What we look for is, again, that exhibiting natural behaviors. And happy is a hard word, but are they living their best life? Are they showing those natural behaviors? Things like self-care and grooming. So self-care is really important to animals. And it's a behavior that you don't always see when an animal. is frightened or undernourished or stressed out. So when we look at an animal in the habitat we've created for it and it's exhibiting

self-care, it's a bird that's preening or it's an animal that's grooming or something along those lines. And then we know that all those other boxes are checked because it feels comfortable enough for a tiger to lay down and like, like it's, you know, pause and clean itself. So we do look for those extra behaviors. And also reproduction is a really great way. to know if animals are healthy and thriving. And that's something we specialize in here at the safari park.

Have you guys ever been here to the park? I have not. You got it. Put it on your list. Donnie. Donnie, our producer, Donnie has been. He was telling me about it. Donnie was saying, Donnie, jump in now.

Talk to Lauren. Yeah, I've never been to the safari park, but I've been to the park itself. And I was talking about how massive it is. I was saying it's like I will compare it to a theme park scale. Like, they're in there. are basically any animal I could think of you guys have an exhibit for it. So it was amazing. Donnie's great. Thank you, Donnie. Yeah, yeah. And here at the safari park, we have these huge habitat. You could take the entire San Diego Zoo and put it into one of our habitats here at the

safari park. So we have a lot. Yeah, so we have a lot of herds of antelope and giraffe and rhino all sharing big spaces together. And they, they breed really well when we put them in those very naturalistic habitats. So reproductive success is another indication that animals are feeling pretty good about themselves. I want to piggyback on feelings because when I think of the zoo and this is tough and this is why we wanted to have these conversations because grew up going to zoos, loved going to the zoo. But as an adult, you start to see things in a different way. And as you talked about, as we become obsessed with animals, especially when you have an animal,

you start seeing things in a different way. But I can't help but think about the anxiety for the animals. And I wonder if there's a way to measure this. When you have kids and people gawking and tapping on the glass and, you know, like, is there a way to measure that, to monitor that? And does that make the animals anxious? I mean, we've seen videos where animals charge at the glass at times. And so I'm just curious, you know, when it comes to the animals,

that argument of zoos versus no zoos where that lands. Yeah, animal anxiety and feeling safe and not feeling on display like in a fishbowl, that's a real focus of zoos more these days. You know, in the past, I don't know that zoos have always hit the mark on that. And we're adjusting more to have habitats where there's a space between the animals and the people. And if there is a glass wall, there's usually someone standing by or there's, you know, and stuff, please don't tap on the glass. There's, there's a few different ways to measure anxiety in animals. There's been a lot of good work looking at cortocosterone or glucocortocon, and a lot of

times they measure it in fecal. That's sort of a stress hormone. It's, it's not exact. It can change throughout the day, even if you're not stressed based on, you know, diurnal rhythms or whatever. But there's a lot of really good researchers who have been trying to use that. And then we do a lot of what we call eithograms where we look at the behavior of an animal. And we even have volunteers with charts like every five minutes, what is the animal doing? Because we do look for what I'm sure you've seen as stereotypic behaviors like pacing back and forth or elephants rocking from one foot to another.

Some animals like giraffes like might suck on things a lot if they have anxiety or they develop these coping mechanisms or habits, kind of like chewing on your finger now. And more and more zoos are recognizing that. Like, for instance, the San Diego Zoo, which has a very large carnivore collection, has a program they call Replace the Pace. And they're recognizing certain cats that have that anxiety and might pace the same trail in the habitat over and over again.

And they're doing a concerted effort. Like, why is this animal anxious? What can we do? You know, that's where carcass feeding comes in and other ways to change up the environment. And for us, when animals are sick, then there's definitely anxiety for both parties, actually. But I don't need drugs most of the time. But our animals, we, especially at the park, we have a lot of antelope, like, you know, gazelles and all that kind of thing. And they're very herd-focused animals.

And when one of them has, say, an injury or an illness, we have to separate them from the herd and hospitalize them and treat them almost like an intensive care situation. and that makes them very nervous because in the wild, if you're separate from your herd, you're eaten. So we've come a long way, especially in our practice because of our patients using what we call anxiolytic or basically anti-anxiety drugs. And you can think about your Prozac and your serotonin reuptake inhibitors and that kind of thing. We have like shorter acting injectables, yep, that were actually used first and figured out in South Africa with endangered game animal translocations. So we've actually figured out,

we actually just had a springbok in the hospital for a week, which five years ago wouldn't have been possible because they get so anxious when they're separated from their herd. But we are able to manage her with a lot of treatments and a lot of medications to get her injury and her illness resolved and now she's being discharged today. So they're very tricky patients. And for us, it's not really about what our limits,

are because we have an amazing facility and really smart people here, but it's more about the limits of what the animals will let us do for them because sometimes we do have to worry about that anxiety part of things. That was probably a really long answer. I enjoyed it. This is great. Lauren, I want to introduce you to a concept and this is my last question. This concept is called AR Animal Retribution. Hear me out. I just came across this this headline. Ex-NFL defensive lineman Derek Wolfe's

hunts kills massive mountain lion in Colorado. This is a huge, beautiful mountain lion and he's got his hands around it. So it's time for me to make this guy a celebrity all over everything and make him look like the excuse my language asshole that he is for killing

this gigantic beautiful creature here for no other reason than for sport. This is where animal retribution comes in. I say what we do to Derek Wolf since he likes the winter in Colorado.

I say we tell him you can come back to society and not be criticized. You got 10 days. We put you in the habitat of Mountain Lion. You go out there. You survive. Take the gun away, Derek. Let's see how much

you got. Let's see if you can get it done. I think as an animal militant as I am, what we have to do is allow animals their revenge, Lauren. These animals have to get their lit back. They want it. I've seen this happen before. I've been to the Baton Rouge Zoo and I've seen kids in the Baton Rouge Zoo, which thank God they closed that down because that was a disgrace.

I'm from Baton Rouge, Louisiana. I've been to the Baton Rouge Zoo and I've seen kids fucking with the animals and have seen the animals on the other side going. going just, I just wish just for one time, Jurassic Park came to life. I was on the dinosaur side in Jurassic Park, like in every single movie. So what do we do to these people, these terrible people that we see slaughtering elephants, that we see kill Cleo the lion, that we see like messing with people. Like, what do we do to them?

Like, this is disgusting. This is disgusting picture that all of my people are saying. sending me now because this guy killed this mountain line. Like, how do we make this into a societal scarlet letter? That's a can of worms right there. It's, I mean, it's a very good question. And, you know, there's a lot of folks in this country who hunt legally, hunt game animals that are overpopulating.

And it's an important part of keeping our ecosystem healthy. I get it. I was a deer hunter for years. Yeah. Yeah, and then, like, you don't want them to get lumped in with the trophy hunters who spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to be able to do that trophy hunt in Africa. But it's kind of, it's tricky because a lot of those permits that go to those trophy hunters go to help conservation. You know, so it's, there's always like two sides to every story. I couldn't imagine killing an amazing, like, predator, like a mountain lion, having had the opportunity to work with many very close up.

All of our, you know, top chain predators who are not overpopulating, they're not all necessarily endangered, but they all have very important roles in the ecosystem. There's definitely better ways to celebrate them than to put their heads on the wall. Richard, you got anything else for Lauren? Last question, since we are talking about zoos and people seem to becoming more and more emotional about them, do you ever think that we will get to a place where zoos become extinct? Will we get to a place where zoos become extinct? I think that is something as an industry that we've been talking about

and also as a group of zoo veterinarians. there's there's about 400 of us in the U.S. that work in zoos all across the country. We're a pretty tight-knit group and recognizing like what does the future hold. And if you look at, I mean, obviously the first thing is whales under human care. Those are no longer being bred under human care. And in another 10 years when the ones we have died out, they probably won't be visible outside, you know, the wild. And elephants are one of the next species that people are coming after. and there have been quite a few zoos

who have gotten out of caring for elephants because of the pressure. Fortunately, there's other institutions that face the pressure, add extra resources, and make sure that we're caring for elephants the way that we should be like we are here. I would like to think that

the only reason zoos would completely become extinct is if they're no longer necessary, which means that we get those wild spaces and those safe habitats back and they can live there. But no matter how many wild spaces there aren't, we're not all going to be able to visit them. Not everyone has the funds for that. And in that regard, we're always going to need a way to connect everyone in San Diego and

L.A. across the country with our wild animals because I get to go out sometimes and just watch people here and seeing that connection and that all in wonder with the kids, but not just the kids. It's the adults too. It's really special. And, you know, I got into my field by going to a zoo when I was younger and being inspired. So I think the amount of dedication, skills, and passion for caring for animals and zoos, I don't think we'll ever let them go extinct. But I do think their role will change in the future.

And I'm excited to be a part of that conversation. You guys got lines down there? We do. We have a couple of, I think two or three. three female lions. Yeah. Well, I'm going to, I'm going to trink that guy and come through him in a line and close me. You guys are all going to be sleeping. We just did a dental on one of the lions, so they're ready to go. Oh, animal retribution. Oh, my gosh. Don't support it, Dr. Howard. Animal retribution. This is the sign. We're going to have shirts made. We're going to get Joe exotic and all the rest of these

people. Animal retribution. That's the sign. Lauren, thank you so much. We are here at higher learning, making sure that we stay connected to our natural world and making sure that we keep in mind as human beings are effect on that national world and the animal brothers and sisters that we share it with and so you guys' knowledge we had Chris Draper on from Paul's you guys' knowledge from a varying all different angles of this discussion

is very valuable to us and we thank you for taking time out of your day to talk to us seriously. I appreciate you caring and wanting to talk about it because that's the only way we're all going to understand each other is to be able to have these conversations. Absolutely, absolutely. That's Lauren Howard right there. She is the director.

Don't play with her. She's exactly. She's the director of the veterinary services for the San Diego Zoo Safari Park. I'm going to come down there real soon. Thank you for joining us on higher learning today. Yeah, come see us anytime. Animal, edible, edible, game. What?

What? Donnie, what's happening? What's her to surprise? That's the Animal games theme song right here. Donnie, what is happening? Donnie, what's going on? So instead of mailbag, we're going to do animal games. We're bringing back the promise.

Oh! Yes, it is official. We're back. And so to kick off the return of Animal Games, I found out that February is not only Black History Month. It's also humpback whale awareness month. Oh. Oh.

So with that in mind, I got some whale questions for everybody. You included, actually. So to determine who's going to go first, though, I want each of you to give me your best humpback whale impression. Can I hear it again? Shit. Okay. Oh, my God.

Should I go first? Yeah, go ahead. Sound like a cop car. Jesus Christ. Rachel, hey, by the way, freeze that? Like, oh, hey, Donnie, Donnie, wow, wow.

Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Come on, man. I'm just, I'm just trying to do it. Donnie. Donnie. I need that still.

That's going on the. That one, too. Oh. No. Rachel, stop. Rachel, you can't do it. You can't. Oh.

He's gone last. Ashley. Let's hear your well impression. Okay. Ashley's the last place. Ashley's in last. Ashley sucks. That was great.

I don't know what you guys are talking about. All right. Yeah. That wasn't that bad. So I'm going to say, I'm going to say ban first, Ashley second, racial third. All right. What? I was clearly distracted.

So you couldn't even get through it without doing full-all pour it on the pipe. So, okay, so what are we doing? Okay, let's go. Okay, so the first round of questions are going to be true or false. Van. True or false. Humback whales have the largest teeth of any whale species. False.

Correct. False. They have 270 to 400 fringed plates, not teeth that hang from each side of their jaw. because they eat plankton and krill and whatnot. Okay, so that's one point for Van. Ashley, are you ready? Yeah, I'm ready. All right.

Second question, true or false? In the wild, humback whales have a lifespan of 80 to 90 years. True. Oh, man, also true. Maybe these questions are too easy. So, yeah, that's also true. Rachel, true or false? Humback whales have no natural predators.

False. Also, true. Predators are, or no, you are also correct. It is false. Their predators are humbacks. The predators are killer whales, false killer whales, and large sharks. Wait, what? Did she, was right or wrong?

I got it right. She was right. The correct answer is it is false. They have no natural predator. Wait, wait, what am I saying? She said true. You said true? No, I didn't.

I said they, no, he said, no, he said, no, I didn't say true. I said false. Rachel said, she did. I swear to God, I said false. You just start paying attention. She said false. What was the question? That's true.

I said, that's true. It is false. That's what's confusing. It was humpback whales have no natural predators. And I said false. You said false. I fucked that up. Doesn't mean.

Donnie, you very shaky today. We all got a point. It's been a minute. It's been a minute since we've done this. Okay, y'all got one point. Last round is multiple choice. Let's see if this gets harder. Okay.

Then, first one. A group of humpback whales is called A, a troop, B, a herd, C, a pod, or D, a parliament. Run those again? A group of humpback whales is called. It's B, it's B, it's B a herd. A herd. False. Or wrong. It's C. It's a parliament. Oh, really? Parliament is like a dog. It's like a doll. It's like, you know, it's like a dolphins. I should have

known that. Uh, it's yep. All right. Uh, second question to Ashley. Okay. A newborn humback whale typically weighs A, about two tons. B, about 1,500 pounds. C, about 1,500 pounds. C, about about one ton or D, about half a ton. I'm going to go with A. About two tons? Yeah. That's wrong. Four thousand pounds.

Four thousand pounds. Fucking crazy. I can't believe I missed part. Captain America says, I saw a pot of whales in the huts and shit. If I get this right, I win. Yes, that is true. Okay.

So this is for all the marvels, Rachel. Which of the following senses do humback whales not have? Oh, damn. Okay. A, taste, B, touch. C, smell, or D, hearing. What were A and B? A is taste.

B is touch. I'm going with B. Wrong. Wrong. It's A. It's A and it's also C. You had two options. You could have gotten right.

They can't taste and they can't smell. All right. So first round of animal games, we are tied up at one apiece. Yeah, that's great, Donnie. Great work. Donnie's appreciate it. Okay. So you think caps off.

We do not stop learning. You guys take it easy. I'm Van Lankin Jr. I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye, guys.