Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - A$AP Rocky and Rihanna’s Relationship, Plus Stacey Abrams on Protecting the Vote

Episode Date: August 7, 2026

Van and Rachel react to results from the August primary races, Sophie Cunningham weighing in on trans athletes, A$AP Rocky opening up to Jason Lee. Then, author and political leader Stacey Abrams returns to weigh in on the ongoing fight for voting rights. (0:00) Intro (5:39) Primary race results (19:26) Sophie Cunningham on trans athletes (30:01) A$AP Rocky on his relationship with Rihanna (42:25) Stacey Abrams joins the show (1:40:10) Did Van see this?  Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Stacey Abrams Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Jade Whaley Social Producer: Bernard Moore Video Supervision: Chris Thomas Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, you know, thought warriors. What is up? Tyler is on. Is Ivan Lathan Jr.? And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. Rach, you are in Martha's Vineyard. I'm in Martha's Vineyard. First time.

First time here. Can you give us a, can you take the camera or the thing? Can you give us a 360 view of the idealic settings of Martha's Vineyard? Please, can you please let us see birds and the beaches and the plains? I thought about, I thought about doing this on the first. front porch, but one, we had an interview and I felt like it was unprofessional. Did you hear that ring camera? I don't know what that was.

One is unprofessional. And two, you know, they're having a tick thing out here. So I was just nervous. Can you see this? Wait. Can you see the beach there? I'm like in it. That's something like that's somebody roof slash backyard.

That shit looks like Queens. Right here. Can you see? Can you see that? Rachel, are you being for real right now? No way. I can't see what you can see. I don't know.

I had to fully turn my computer on. I don't have like a webcam on. So I fully turned to my thing because I can see the ink. I can see inkwell beach from here. Inkwell Beach. Okay, cool. It's beautiful. It's beautiful.

It's beautiful. It's beautiful. I'm in Oakcluffs. So, but, but professional first, you know, I landed. I peeped the settings, got my setup, and I'm here to podcast. Wow. we are so fucking with a little orange with a little orange wine a little orange wine little nigger wine um it is orange I like orange wine I like the way it tastes you would yeah because you like like you like lighter drinks you like a little fruity drink you don't like to take the out taste the alcohol in your drink not only do I not like to taste the alcohol I don't understand it like I always want to be that's who I always always always wanted to be. I always wanted to be somebody because I tried it for a little while,

just makers on the rocks. And I'm like, what, when I was going to hold. Well, that's your problem. Cowboys on rocks. Like when I was doing the cowboy hat thing, which by the way, the cowboy hats coming back for the fall. Just letting you all know. Look, y'all know. Shout out to my dad. I was in my room. And I saw my dad's hat. I saw his layered. I'm like, you know, the cowboy has a part of me. Cobbo hat's going to start being a winter thing. Buckets in the, buckets in the summer. Cobble hats in the winter. We got it. Spring fall. Spring fall.

TBD. Yeah, TBD. Spring fall, maybe I go back for, you know, the actual hair. Joggers. Joggers, joggers, joggers, very true. So, yeah, Inc. Well, is a movie. Lawrence Tate, Joe Morton. Shout to Joe Morton.

Joe Morton just been working forever, man. Joe Morton just been in so much different shit. You know Joe Morton. He's the dad from scandal. He's Michael Eric Dyson. Oh. Michael Eric Dyson. Papa Pope?

No. Papa Pope? He's not Michael Eric Dyson. That's the guy. He's Neil. He's Miles Bennett Dyson. I didn't know that was his real name. Papa,

Pope. Joe Morton is his real name. He's Miles Bennett Dyson. Miles Bennett Dyson in Terminator 2 Judgment Day is the scientist that advances Skynet to the point to where it goes too far. And then he dies in the assault on Skynet headquarters. Then all the shit gets undone and subsequent movies. So the nigger die for nothing. Morse Chestnut, all these, go watch the inkwell.

Everybody's in the movie. I love it. Shout out to Dwayne Martin, Mary Alice, everybody's in it. Everybody's in the movie. Everybody's in the movie. Go watch it. All right. Now, you had, you're there now.

We have Stacey Abrams on the podcast. We just did that interview. Takeaways from the interview. I mean, Stacey Abrams is always what you expect her to be. She is brilliant. She's funny. There's such an ease about her that just relaxes you. in what she says and what she stands for.

It's just great. I'm mad I wasn't there. You accused her of being the... Because I think this is the first time... I think this is the first time we've had her in studio, right? Because we've had her a couple of... Is this the first time we've had her in studio? Yes, I made a mistake much to my...

Your accuser being a Delta. Embarrassment and to your... I mean, like, this was a gift for you. This was a gift. Was it? Oh, please. What's a gift? I would say it's interesting.

relish in this. You, this was thrilling for you. You jumped off the porch. You jumped off the porch. And you thought that she was Delta and she said, she's not. She said that she's A-K. Well, at least, no, she didn't say, I was about to go. Well, at least she's not.

And you go, she's an anchor. She's me by me. But it's, it's, we would love to have her. Of course. Love to have her in the Delta Sigma situation. But is it, before we move on, and getting to the podcast, is that, has there been any mending offenses between the deltas and the A.Ks? Or you still get impressed out in the street?

Nobody's ever come up to, actually, that's not true. I know. But it's always been friendly. It's always been like, oh, I heard what you had to say. And I say, it's all love. I'm just trying to look out for y'all. I want us to all, we all represent D9. I want us to all be our best.

All right. Let's get into the podcast. Donnie. Yeah, they were five states that held primary elections this week. Michigan, Missouri, Kansas, Virginia, and Washington. They offer an early snapshot of the political landscape ahead of the 2026 midterms. Former Representative Cory Bush failed to reclaim her Missouri congressional seat while Washington's moderate Democrat, Mary Glucent Camp Perez, advanced despite a challenge from the left. And in Michigan, they delivered, I think, the night's biggest story with progressive Democrat Abdul Al-Sayed defeating Representative Haley Stevens in the Democratic Senate primary.

Now, Donnie, you are at Michigander, okay? Who were you throwing your support behind El-Said or Haley Stevens? With A-PAC concerns, it would be El-Said. I will say Haley Stevens has gone viral in the past few months with some entertaining videos of people making fun of rare accent. But when it comes to. Donnie. That was a factor for you, Donnie.

I mean, it's very likable. Do it. Donnie, do it. Do it. Do it. It's hard. You're from Michigan. It's not easy. Well, she said, it's a white accent.

She said when they're talking about me, They're talking about you guys in Michigan. So that's you, Donnie. So do the accent. Do what you said. Talking about Michiganders, about that give it to them, that fight, that Michigan fight. You know, we got baseball, we got football, we got a whole bunch of sports in the Midwest. It's not bad.

But no, for real, white people don't talk like that. So we'll start with that race. in that race Look El Cyan He's one of those guys that's got it You know He is not quite on the mom

Donnie level of it Because he's a little bit more of a Like he came out there when he was given his His victory speech His primary victory speech He came out there with his shit unbuttoned at the top I'm like God damn this nigga kind of Like he's like

Like, it's like, Abdul Swave a little bit. You know what I mean? Like, he kind of had a whole thing going on. So Mabdani plays him more like a straight-up politician. They're not quite the same. I'm comparing them because when you look at the political tradecraft that they are, that, that they operate with, he's good. He's good. He's very direct.

He's able to take even a question that is about something that people think they have him in on, like his opposition to Israel, his opposition to APEC. And he's always able to reorient those questions back to the policies and the initiatives that he is running on. He's able to not say, I'm just against this, not just say that, but also say, I'm against this because. Having said that, Stevens lopped him with black voters. And do we think, do you think, does Donnie think, does anyone think, that that is because of a disconnect? between progressive candidates and black voters, or do you just think that at this point, the, you know, everybody from the CBC, Jim Clyburn,

everybody came out for Stevens. Does APEC have control over the CBC? I think that that's what it is. When I saw Jim Clyburn standing behind her, it's the image of that. You know, for people who might not be as well-versed in politics or might not understand. I mean, we talked to Stacey Abrams about this,

but people vote. It's a popularity concept. And so if people may not say, hey, I'm not as well versed on this or I don't know this, I may, I trust this person or trust this organization that's behind it. So I'm going to vote for them. I would be curious as the breakdown of what the age was of black voters that supported Stevens versus El-Said. That I would be curious about. But I'm not surprised because I still think black voters vote for the establishment. So that's not shocking. I mean, Jim Clivein is. 80-something years old and he's traveling to Michigan. He's there because he knows his presence means something. And he's there because he knows that he is persuasive with votes. That's what he's there for. So that wasn't shocking.

I also think though, I mean, obviously black voters are as sophisticated as any voting block anywhere. So I think that if you are not connecting with them, there are probably very tangible reasons why. And this is something for El-Sayette to really drill down on. And all of these progressive candidates, all these progressive candidates, the wing of the party in which I identify with, is not going to be enough to say that either there's some outside interest that's influencing the race or to say that it's because of the dominance of the CBC or because these voters are older. It's up to you to get your feet on fire and go to places. I saw that else I did a little bit of this.

He went to a couple churches where he talked to people and when he talked to the people, they felt like they had a better connection. to him. Don't think that you, that the black voting block is a voting block that you have to defeat. You have to engage them. Not that you're going to get all of them, right? But don't think that you have to win in spite of them. If you don't animate and engage black voters coming from the left, you're not going to have political success in the long run, long term. You're not going to. So it is going to be a huge and incumbent upon him or anybody like this to go out and go talk to those people and give them a reason to vote for him. Like now you can't. It's not like she's out of the race.

We'll see what clobbering and the rest of them do. It's not up to them anymore. So Abdul Siyadh to go out there and get those people to vote for him. Engage those people and talk directly to them about their needs. Was he not? I'm saying is, I'm saying. Because what I was reading is he was way more boots on the ground and tapped into the community with various voting sectors than she was. She, if anything, relied on all the money that she had that was coming into her campaign, all the support that she had for the establishment.

And she actually was not as tapped in like he was. And still that the black people overwhelmingly voted for her, which is why I say, and I'm not here to not to challenge smart or not smart. That's not what I'm doing. I'm more so saying I think the presence of the establishment of a gem is pivotal when it comes to black voters. Like that's somebody that they trust. That's why I'm curious, the age group.

I'm not, I'm not disagreeing with you at all. What I'm saying is true, but fuck it now. Fuck it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now that's the question. But what I'm saying is I think it would be, and I don't think that he would do this or that any progressive should do this,

hopefully they wouldn't. I don't think that because I think everything you're saying is correct. Like establishment matters, politicians that have been around matter, we have the same type of seniority culture that we've discussed here on the podcast and stuff like that before. Now, though, you have to go with all of that data in your head and you have to go make a case to those people about how you're going to serve them.

Those people, our people, the people, how are you going to serve them? You have to go into places that maybe we're a little hesitant to you and say, this is what they're getting wrong. And winning in the primary gives you the opportunity to do that now. You don't have to compete with somebody else.

Now all you have to do to show them the enemy, show how you're going to beat that enemy, how you're going to bring freedoms and prosperity to where they are, meet them where they are, but you have to want it. And I think that what I'm starting to feel a little bit is progressives that are going, this is a group that we have to kind of defeat electorally

and not engage electorally. Might never get to where Haley Stevens got because I think those numbers were pretty far off, but you're going to have to get some of those people on your side to go and, fuck winning the election. You have to serve them. You have to talk to them. You have to get granular with their needs and wants.

So, yeah, that's all I'm saying. That's all I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It'll be interesting to see what if the party gets behind him because this is a really important race to went for them. Yeah, it is.

In a pre-primary poll had it 67 to 34, Stevens. For my? No, Steve's to El-Sayette. I was like, hell not. We're out of here at that point. Yeah, I was like, for what? And they say that pattern basically held on election night. Corey Bush.

Yeah. Lost to Wesley Bell. Wasn't particularly close. Wasn't particularly close. No, it wasn't close. It was 59 to 37. Of course, it's Missouri's first district. We had Corey on.

We obviously did not have Wesley Bell on. Any thoughts? I mean, he had already beat her. He was the incumbent. We know how much money, you know, was behind him. We know who's behind supporting him. It's not shocking. You know, I'm not as tapped into Missouri.

So the question is, as he has held that office, what has he done for the people? Do the people feel like he has not served them accordingly? That's the question. It doesn't seem like they feel that way based on them voting. It's not like she's going up against some Trump-backed MAGA person. She's going against an establishment Democrat. And I think, obviously, the people voting.

feel like he's had their back. And we talked about this in Texas. We talk about APEC here. It was also a point of an issue and a conversation for the Michigan race. We talk about it here. It's used as something to villainize progressives that are running for office.

But when it comes to these places, it is. When it comes to these places, like when we were talking about, Texas, the primary race there for the Senate, those voters don't care. I really don't think that they do like that. That's not a deciding factor for them when it comes to it. So the fact that Leslie Bell is getting all this money from APAC and they're outspending Cory Bush and all these ways. And it's because of it's a APAC supporting them. They don't look at it the same way. It's not the deciding factor for them. Yeah, I think it's definitely not the deciding factor for them. I think, you know, APAC for a lot of people is a political litmus test to the seriousness of the individual candidate, right? It's no different than like the NRA. If you, there's a set of policies and a set of associations that go along with being the NRA back to candidate.

And when you see that, it's like, whatever. Like, we can continue to have deeper conversations about APAC and about how people feel like. the American political establishment should operate when dealing with a foreign power. Okay, whatever. I also think that the way you run your campaign matters and how effective your campaign matters, positive headlines in your campaign matter,

negative campaign, negative headlines in the campaign matter. And so what we can't do, moving forward is use APEC as a catch-all every time somebody that we want to win does not win because then what will happen is that will release them

from the need to run a great campaign to really do a lot of the work that they should do. We have to understand I'm just, I'm going to leave it at that. We have to understand that like in a lot of these races across the country,

A-PAC is going to be a gigantic hurdle for people to jump over. When you go and you look on the APAC website, which I did this morning, they talk directly about the fact that they want to fund and defeat candidates that don't have the APAC stamp of approval.

This is what they want. They want as much, it's lobbying, right? They want as much sway political power outside the halls of Congress as possible. So they're going to spend a shit ton of money and they're incredibly well-resourced. That doesn't mean that you don't have to run a great campaign now. Doesn't mean that moving forward

Of course. Up against an A-PAC candidate and you can just say, hey, I was up against the big bad machine and I lost. It's me, that. You still got to go out. Still got to do your thing.

You still got to do shit in the right way. And that goes for everyone. But yeah, so that's it. This existential battle between I guess the left and center flanks to the Democratic Party. It was submission returns. There were some wins. There were some losses.

it seems to be something that's conditional on where you are and what people care about. Yeah, agree. Yeah. All right. Donnie, Sophie Cunningham. Yeah, there's some WNBA news. Indiana fever guards Sophie Cunningham says she wants to move past the recent controversy surrounding her comments on transgender athletes and returned the conversation to basketball,

calling the ongoing attention a, quote, distraction. Her initial comments regarding athletes came in an ESPN profile last month. where she said, quote, I think that I am here to extend love, but I also think that with love is truth being honest. And I want to protect young girls in a locker room or young girls in sport who shouldn't have to go against biological men. Who do you think talk to her? Talk to Sophie Cunningham?

Yes. Who do you think for Sophie Cunningham to have this comment that she made in an interview, you, then to wear it proudly be taking pictures with her fans for this statement, not just because she plays basketball and they like her as an athlete. They're taking pictures with her holding up posters based off of the comments that she said. She has played into it. That means for her to have to say that it's now a distraction when she was relishing in it and for her to set to focus on the game and not the politics of it because that's what she was

playing into. who do you think said something to her because somebody did? Yeah, I have no clue. I mean, they definitely, she exists in a league where they kind of don't play that shit. Like they don't...

Correct. They don't play that shit. Like in these other leagues that we support, you can go out there and be like, yo man, I'm MAGA, lock all the niggas up. And then you get a black guy that goes, that's my brother.

We're in the same locker room. together. We go to war together. We get it out the mud together. Two a days, August in the heat, together. That's my brother. And you're like, God damn. But it don't seem like they play that

in the WNBA, right? It don't seem like they enter that. Like that's the, that's, that's, it doesn't seem like they, that, they have a different social standard, it seems like said over there. I don't know. I mean, yeah, it's a majority black, big LGBTQ plus community. They've been politically outspoken.

It's about being inclusive. It's about being equal. And her comments and her alignment are the direct opposite of that. Her making those statements contradict the things that they stand for. I personally think when Caitlin Clark got asked that question about what she thought. And then she basically, you know, responds that this isn't what they talk about in the locker room. This isn't what the game is about. Basically a wordy statement that meant no comment, people attacked her.

And so I think, and that is a no-no. Remember, Sophie's the enforcer. She is the enforcer for Caitlin. So if Caitlin is now getting attacked and it's at the hands of comments and a stance that Sophie has, then I think that is why I might have called stress in the locker room. It might have come from Caitlin directly. Who knows? But I think that is why it's like, okay, you need to quiet it down.

Because this is now, you know, we already know Caitlin is used in so many different ways or talked about in different ways. I think that is something they were like, you got to shut that down. That's really what I think happened. Yeah. And good. Well, you know, it's funny, though, she said talking about basketball. That's bad for her because if we go to talking about basketball, we're going to talk about Asia, Olivia.

We're going to talk about Caitlin. We're going to talk about Brianna. We're going to talk about Angel Reese. We're going to talk about a lot of people. But if we go back to talking about basketball, we ain't be able to talk about Sophie Cunning. hand. The only reason why, the only reason why, look, she wanted the best in the world. Okay, so let me say that real quick.

Let me just be honest. She wanted the best in the world. She wanted the best in the world. She wanted the best in the world. That's, that she wanted the best in the world. But if we start talking, but we're going to be. No, she wanted the best in the world. You're in the NBA, you want the best in the world.

I said not in the league. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but like we're going to be talking about Paige. We're going to be talking about a lot of people. We're not going to be talking about Sophie Cunningham. So the way that we're going to be talking about. talking about Sophie Cunningham, it's for Sophie Cunningham to be talking about trans people. That's the only way that she's going to be right.

Let me tell you something else, man. Look, Jamel Hill had a take on this that is phenomenal. Like, this is like brought this issue back. Jamel said something and I'm paraphrasing, and she goes, she listed the amount of laws that were made across the country, banning trans people in sports. She listed all the different legislation that's been passed and all the different, the Trump victory and stuff.

And she goes, you guys won. You guys won this. You won this, like this situation, this, the ability to be an asshole or to section off trans people, you guys won. You won the battle. You won the battle.

She's right. This now is this malicious and vicious, spiking of the football, specifically for political points. And to define yourself as politically respectable to a certain type of person. If you cannot gift trans people at this point, if you cannot gift them with visibility, humanity,

and acceptance, could you at least gift them with silence? Could you at least shut the fuck up about them? Like, could you just at least leave them the fuck alone? Who the fuck is not 2021, 2021, 2022, 2023? You guys are doing your victory lap on this shit, fucking up the country. You mean to tell me that it's like there wars happening in Middle East. Food prices are crazy.

Like the environment is in the shitter. We can't eat lettuce without crap in our pants, all of this stuff. And you're still picking on these people after all of this time. Shut the fuck up. Shut the fuck up. Find something else. You know what this reminds me of? This reminds me of back in the day when I used to like watch Fox News.

It's watch Fox News. just watch Fox News and you will watch Fox News and it would be like what's going on around the world Middle East and stuff like that and then every now and again

on Fox News it would be like this terrible fucking headline it would be like 67% of black unwed mothers blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah and I'd be like

what the fuck do they care about they don't give a fuck about this no one is going to come on here and give anything that is prescriptive or nutritious about any issue that they think is plaguing the black community

but what they do want is a cultural mascot for what they think American undesirability is and that is what is happening right now and because I didn't appreciate it when it was done to me I'm not going to do it to somebody else

particularly what people are using the entire community, a vulnerable community to get off their fucking bullshit narrative And I'm like just like Sophie You want to like just show some ass or something Do it the right way Like it's I'm just saying like that that's a

harmless way like do it you know do it do it the right way Like go cop of celebrity relationship Leave these people to fuck alone man Like do it The point is it doesn't it doesn't mean anything to them right It's under the guys as if they care But the reality is they don't It's all about

politicizing it. They don't care about the actual individuals involved. It's all this conversation about, oh, it's making the sport unsafe, unsafe. It's like unsafe to who? Making one sport, it's not happening. But that's what I was about saying. That's what I was about to say.

Yeah. Come up. Sorry. It's not an actual, it's not even an actual issue. So it's a moot argument. You know, you've got the head of the NCAA, it's testifying in front of Congress saying

there are maybe 10, 10 trans athletes. It's not a real threat. It's not a real issue. There's nobody who is, like you're talking about something that's not a thing because you're not focused on what is actually happening, caring about individuals. Because if that's the case, then where was that care? Women's sports has that have existed for a long time.

You're putting all of this political energy behind trans participation, and you're not putting it against pay equity, facilities, media rights, title nine and four. If you care about women, why are we not caring about all the things that impact women? You're not, because you actually don't care. It reminds me of like the abortion arguments. It's the fetus. It's the child. It's the child.

I care about children. Child is born. You don't give a fuck about the situation for that child. You don't care what type of way that they grow up. You don't care about rights that impact the people who maybe were making a decision because they didn't feel like that they were ready to have a children. So it's like, you don't care what, what happens? to the child once they're there, you are just using this as a religious, political thing and not caring about the people who are actually impacted by this.

Because it's not about that. It's about you and you getting off on politicizing the whole thing. And that's the frustrating part about all of it. Like, Sophie Cunningham doesn't even know what she's talking about. If you're going to talk about a group of people, speak life into them. Talk about what they're going through. Talk about what they're Gotta care

What they've been through Talk about what's happening to them now Talk about what it must be like To live in this A precious Oppressive society Where you're demonized For the way that you were born

You know Like it is all The scoring of Like you said Everything you said Cheapolitic is just like Whatever man Sophie

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Pure Vita shampoo or conditioner for $8 each at Real Canadian Superstore when you're ready, we're ready with a whole world and more. All right, what else, Don? Come on. Keep it coming up. All right, ASAP Rocky. Oh, shit. He sat down with Jason Lee on the Jason Lee show

for a wide-ranging interview that had the internet of us. He talked about his upbringing in Harlem, the experiences that shaped him. And his relationship with Rihanna, let's hear a little bit. One thing I could say about my woman that people don't know, she'll realize, bro, that's. She's not one of these Hollywood, like, you know, newbies or whatever the case is, no shade to nobody. She really is a strong black woman and she held me down even when I was at my lowest.

How do you go from being a nympho to being locked in with one person, building a family, out the streets, It wasn't really no other broad that could match me that I felt like. It's not got nothing to do with her accolades of her money. The truth for the matter is when my dad died, she was there for me. When I got locked up in Sweden, she was there for me. When the Raleigh happened, she was there for me. Every time I'm at my lowest and darkest place, rather if we just friends platonically or we in a couple relationship,

she always fucking in for me, bro. Genuinely, my first album with number one, My dad died on Christmas. I was on my bathroom floor in Paris crying. She called me for some reason to congratulate me in Paris. We both in Paris. I didn't know she was and she didn't know I was in Paris. And I told her like, I'm down.

I feel like this. I feel like that. Bro, shoddy rushed to my, I don't even know how Rihanna got the key to my room. I stopped answering my phone. All that. She walked right in. Yo, you good? You know, like talk to me.

all this other stuff and that really was my friend, bro. That's really my, bro, like, for real. That's, that's real shit to me. Heartfelt. It sounds heartfelt, doesn't it? Yeah. You would think, how could one have an issue with that? And he goes on in the interview.

He talks quite a bit, even releases that Spills, that he's going to get in trouble for it, that Rihanna's working on music, goes on to talk about how much he respects her, goes on to talk about how not being jealous of, of her success because he's so proud of her and that's her. He talks about like how great she is and, you know, like, you know, because he says matching me, but more so in like she's so like stands, she's so magnificent on her own is kind of what he's saying.

And I watched the interview and the way he talked about her and I just loved it. And I saw a lot of people speak in that same way. But then I saw another side of it. Oh. And we got to talk about this because this is so disappointing to me. I saw a lot of conversation, one, that's like, oh, I'm side-eyeing ASAP. Oh, Rihanna better watch out. Or why is it that when a man talks about how much he loves a woman, it's always defined

is because she held him down when he was low rather than, where's the story about when a woman was low and a man held her down? Guys, if that's what you took away from that, first off, I encourage you to listen to the whole thing. Second, if that's what you took away from that, you got to do some work on yourself. Because one, is an interview. It's almost a two-hour interview. And only a section of it is talking about Rihanna. You have no idea the intricacies of their relationship.

And he's telling, he's answering a question from his perspective about his love for her. her. You have no idea. We don't, you don't know, Rihanna's not sitting there talking about how he has held her down, how he has been there for her. You absolutely have no idea. And in a way that a woman needs to be held down might not be in the same way that a man needs to be held down. And what I took from that, when I heard that was, all I saw was, especially when he talks about the story of losing his father, is that he cut everybody off. She found her way to him, because they were first. And first. That's the other thing too. This is a friends to lover situation, which to me is ideal. To build a friendship, to have that trust, that comfortability, and then it turned into something

else is ideal. But what I heard from that is that he was, she says, are you good? And he felt comfortable, safe to be vulnerable with her, to relax with her, to show emotion or he cut everybody off. And with her, he let his guard down. That shows trust, that shows respect. That is what I would think you would want in a partner. Somebody who can be themselves, can have a low moment in front of you and doesn't feel like they have to be hard or play into an image or perform. They can just completely let go. That's love. And so good for her, then good for them that they have this beautiful relationship where she can be there when he's low because he feels open enough with her to show that side of him. That is what I took from that. That's what I want. And I know that

I would know that if I'm doing that for you, there's reciprocity. You're going to do that same thing for me when I need you like that. Like that, I just, it bothered me when I saw this. At first I was like, oh, I'm not even going to talk about this. And then when I saw that turn, I said, we got to have a conversation. Oh. Like this is why. In the same way, we kind of talked about this with D.R. In the same way, there are certain ways that women want to be safe. So do men. And when you have conversations that contradict what he was expressing or contradict what I'm saying,

it doesn't allow that beautiful moments, those beautiful moments where you can strip everything down and be there for each other like a partner may need for you to be. We got to let go with some of this stuff. I don't know what y'all were expect. Like, what do y'all want? What was he supposed to say? I love her because she's smart and she's successful and she's this. Like, he gave real life examples that were rooted in something that meant something to him.

That's, I love that. So I say a couple things. Number one, everything you just say is right, obviously. But just too, just in a more just broad way. I don't want to be disrespectful to anyone. But if you're giving a side eye too much, your eyes are probably stuck that way. So I remember when I was a kid

and one of the elders would see somebody like rolling their eyes, the elders would do two things. One, they would say, hey, roll your eyes at me again. I'm going to slap them in the back of your head. Okay, that was always a great one. You're going to slap them eyes in the back of your head. Number two, they'll be like, hey, you roll your eyes enough, your face can get stuck like that. You need to stuck that way.

I'm telling you guys, right now, a lot of my side eye givers, your eyes are stuck like that. Y'all can't help but give the side eye to everything that y'all see. That side eye is a manifestation of this deep cynicism that you have and this pedantic hyper-focus on less find the bad everywhere that we possibly can. Isab Rocky is a guy that comes from his neighborhood. He's rough around the edges. He's been smoothed out in other ways. But he's rough around the edges

in some ways. In some ways those edges is never going to get smoothed out. You can put that brother in Prada. You can put them in I don't even know all the brands, whatever. Like, G. Monchi, whatever. You can put him in all the brands, but at the core of him, there's a lot of living that way into that.

So when he is talking about that, moment where she comes in and she shows up for him. He's talking about something that not very many people in his life have done for him. And that is more meaningful than her being the baddest chick in the world. That is more meaningful

than her being a billionaire or her being. He didn't even say the mother thing which is what I was like like once I, because a lot of guys once I saw her with my kids I was. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like, you know,

I didn't feel, but then I saw the way she looked out for my kids. I was like, boom. I understand even what they mean when they say that. I get it. I understand that I've been seeing the situations. But what I'm saying, what he said was that like, there is something deeper with our bond than anything that has to do with anything that is celebrity or like whatever. It's not the first time I heard umbrella that I fell in love with Rihanna.

We had real moments that define us. And I think that's something beautiful to say. Also, for the people that think is something beautiful. this don't mean that these people not going to have relationship problems or not going to be in the middle of something. Okay. That don't mean that. So how about this is what is meaningful to Aesab Rocky

is what is meaningful to Rihanna. I just saw them dancing on each other in the condominance day situation. It seems to be working. Can we take five seconds to be happy? That's all. Yeah. Be happy wise, happy times.

And then when the sad times come, we'll be sad thing. But God, I think that's part of it. I think that's part of the reason he went ahead and said she's working on an album. Because, you know, people would be like, get off of her. Let her, let her get. She needs to be in the studio.

I think that's part of the reason he was like, I'm just going to let y'all know she's working on something too. So y'all, y'all always on me for her. Because people, people revere men and women just revere Rihanna in such a way. And if you really do, then be happy and like what they have. Like I said, for me, that's ideal. Yeah, I mean, look, it is what, like, shout out to them. Good interview, well-conducted interview. It was a really good interview, Jason.

Jason, that was a great interview. Yeah, Jason do it. Jason do his thing. But like, can, like, look, Rihanna and ASAP seemed to be happy. My twin, ASAP. They seem to be happy. Can we just be happy with them for one second? Can we be, just everybody.

How about this? Everyone. All my side eyes. I know you side-eye. Like I said, your eyes are stuck that way. That's cool. But just I release you to feel good about something in the moment. And it's okay.

Just because bad follows it doesn't mean that the good never exists. I think that's what people are dealing with right now. See, back in the day, we never had to see somebody's fall off. You pop up, you're in all the movies in 19, fucking 88. And then we don't realize that we ain't seen you for a while until like 2001. He's like, wait, what the fuck? Because we go back and we watch the movies. Like, what happened to him?

Like, we don't do to what happened to him anymore because we watch you on every stage. Legitimately, every album drops and it sells less than a one before. And we are in it. Oh, shit, man. This shit right here only did $175,000 in the first week. This ain't like nuked the streets too that did $575. We watched incrementally the shit. happened like you like you know and I think now we go damn we should have never celebrated when

shit was going good because now shit just going to go bad I'm not saying it's going to go bad for these two crazy kids but I'm just saying it's okay to live in the moment of good and happy it's not going to bite you in the ass that's all I'm saying man you know come on man rihanna rocky bro come on man they got kids you know I don't know okay okay guys I really do not want you guys to go anywhere. We have a fantastic interview with Stacey Abrams. We talk about voting rights. We talk about historical

fucking disenfranchisement of black people and other people. We talk about her career. From the producers of Super Troopers and Super Troopers 2 comes, you guessed it. Broken Lizard and their rowdy patrol squad return to the scene of the crime in Super Troopers 3.

The mustaches are thicker. The syrup stickier and the pranks crazier than ever buckle up for the funniest comedy of the summer super troopers three now playing only in theaters get tickets now as a novelist all on the other side of this point okay guys we are like so happy don't even have the right word to say so thrilled blessed to have stacey abrams joining us today uh like they gave us we always get these one sheets of ways to people and it's difficult to do it with Stacy. New York Times bestselling author, entrepreneur, producer, political leader and activist. Do you feel like that's an appropriate entire summation of what it is that you do?

I think it is a very nice thing and I've seen much worse descriptions of me. So I'm going to go with the one you're using. Awesome. Okay. So there's a lot going on. There's a lot you have going on. So I want to jump right into it. You have been really a lot of people argue rightly so that the Democrats have you to think for Georgia in 2020.

Like for a lot of the political inroads that have been made getting the vote out, like overcoming some of the structural obstacles that the right poses as far as people getting their vote and accessing their vote. that a lot of your work with your organization has been responsible for some wins that we've had there. So I want to start off by asking you kind of a broad question. To someone who's politically illiterate, how would you describe what happened as a result of the Calais decision? Okay. So I'd like to start with why we needed the Voting Rights Act, because for a lot of people, this feels like normative. But if you were born after 1980, you were born. You were born. with the Voting Rights Act not only being in effect, but being more a sort of just a factor of your life. You weren't part of making it so and you weren't part of defending it against death. So there was

this middle ground where the Voting Rights Act was great. And the Voting Rights Act existed because the 15th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution for the first time said that you could not use race as a pretext for denying people the right to vote. And the South ignored it. So that's Jim Crow. And the Voting Rights Act then in 1965 said no, we met everyone had the right to vote irrespective of their race, and we're going to make you do it. And so it was race in color, and that's how we end up expanding it in 1975. But the Voting Rights Act really said that you have to not just say people can vote. You've got to protect it and you've got to forestall any of the impediments that would make it impossible. Voter suppression has three parts.

can you register and stay on the rolls? Can you cast a ballot and does that ballot get counted? So the Voting Rights Act said, you can't make rules in these states that make any of those three things impossible. Okay. So what we saw happen with Calais was the end result of what has been a 60-year battle to make the 15th Amendment not apply to black and brown people. And the biggest piece started in 2013 with the Shelby decision. That's the decision that said you don't have Section 5. Section 5 was the part of the law that said, we know there are certain states that when they are told nobody is watching, they do mean things. So it used to be called preclearance. Well, they got rid of preclearance because John Robert said there's no more racism so you don't

need preclearance anymore. And how do we know there's no more racism? Barack Obama got elected. And so that was the decision called Shelby. Then the second decision was called the Rucho decision. Rucho said, well, we don't like gerrymandering unless it's partisan. You can't do it to get rid of black and brown voters, but if it's partisan, it's fine, which was completely bollocks because 60% of black people live in the South. And we know that race is the strongest predictor of political leanings. So when they said, oh, we're just going to do partisan voting, what they were saying is we know black people vote Democratic, so we're going to say that you can just pretend it's about Republicans and stop them from voting anyway. So that's Roushow. Then you had the Bronovich decision that came out of Arizona. Bronovich was, well, we can't blatantly be racist. But if we can do it subtly, will you let us? And that was because they were attacking Latino and Native American voters in the West. And the Bronovich decision from the Supreme Court said, well, you know, let's make the standard higher.

They have to prove that you really, really meant to be racist. It wasn't just accidental. It just tripped into racism. So those were the three cases. And then you get Calais. And what Calais said was, yeah, we don't care about racism anymore. In fact, what we're going to make the standard is,

instead of being able to detect racism, where we can see it when it happens, you've got to be a psychic and prove that they thought about racism before they did it. So instead of being a detective, Calais requires that you have to be a psychic, which I don't know if you've been practicing, but I haven't built my psychic skills.

So what that means for the people who are wondering, From now on, racism can be absolutely the reason you do anything. And the reason Calais was so devastating was not that it happened just now. It was that it built on an intention of basically erasing the viability of the 15th Amendment. They're trying their best to make certain that people they don't like, cannot cast a ballot, cannot register, cast a ballot, or have that ballot be counted. Okay. So when I hear all of that, it seems incremental, but it seems incredibly intentional and functional over a long period of time. Who was watching the gate?

Okay. So this started with a guy named Lewis Powell that most people don't know. Lewis Powell in the 1970s. I would give him the credit for being the architect or at least the person who did the first round of building plans. But they've been at this for a while. Barry Goldwater didn't like that. Certainly. Yeah.

So this has been a conservative intention from the beginning because you've got to remember. remember when Jim Crow fell, that meant that if you wanted to win elections, you had to compete now across a range of identities. When people get mad about identity politics, they're not mad about identity. They're mad about which identities they have to speak to. They're fine talking to farmers. They're okay when they have to acknowledge that women vote, at least until recently. We can get into that if you want. But it's the identity of people of color because those were voting blocks that could change the outcome of elections. Conservatives have a very visceral reaction to that being a resonant block of voters. And so it's been largely a conservative enterprise. They have been

very consistent. The Heritage Foundation has never wavered in its dismissal of the Voting Rights Act. And John Roberts, the U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice, came of age under William Rehnquist, the former U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice, who got his story. start in politics by being the architect of voter suppression in Arizona because he created a version of the Spanish language poll tax. And it was so aggressive and so effective that we got the 1975 reauthorization of the Voting Rights Act to undo what William Rehnquist did before Republicans made him a Supreme Court justice. So if I'm listening to all of this, which, you just have such a way of laying it all out that makes it make so much sense, breaking it down,

If I'm listening to this, I'm wondering with what's left of the Voting Rights Act, what protections do we have left? We have very few for now. And that's one of the reasons I think it's important for us to understand the arc of history. The 15th Amendment was necessary because the Constitution does not include a right to vote. We say that. But when you read it, it doesn't. What the Constitution says, it says that states control the elections and it then gives a list of people who cannot be precluded from voting based on who they are. So the 15th Amendment said that you couldn't use race in color. The 19th Amendment said you couldn't stop women. And the 26th Amendment said you couldn't stop anyone over the age of 18. So most of our Constitution says who you can't stop. But it doesn't cover, for example, ex-offenders, people in prison.

So those are all choices that get made. So the thing for us to remember is they've done this before and we've won before. So there's the longitudinal passion that we have to have. And I think, man, that was part of your question. Part of what we've got to do is figure out what they do wrong and re-engineer it. And a lot of the work that I get credit for in Georgia wasn't new. It was just I went about it in a different way. But I also linked arms with other organizations that had been doing the work.

I was just loud and really good at begging for money. So we were able to expand it. And I held positions of power. I was in the state legislature. I ran a nonprofit. I ran my mouth. I did a lot to make it manifest. And despite how harmful this moment is, we can do it again.

In the short term, we have to overwhelm the polls. We have to show up in such force that their attempts to mitigate our voices. It may not be completely vitiated. We may not be able to completely stop it, but we can make it harder. And that's what we did in Georgia. But then we start electing people and we demand that they talk about voting rights and that they make voting rights a central pillar because voting rights is not a nice to have. It is the central pillar of democracy.

You can't get power if you don't have a voice. And so our project has to be the short term showing up in elections, not just at the federal level, but the state and local level. but it also has to be how do we change who is in office and make them work harder to make sure that we can show up. So I want to talk about voter ID. I want to talk about a couple other things before we get into. I also want to talk about, you know, some of the stuff you're doing,

your book and being optioned and all of that stuff. It's very exciting. But before we can do it, I want to ask a question. I want to be kind of pointed as I ask. So let's say that I'm somewhere. and I'm disillusioned. And I'm hearing Stacey Abrams or Kamala Harris or someone saying that the only way for us to, and I agree, the only way for us to beat back some of these structural changes is to overwhelm the polls.

I guess the question I'm asking for the dude in the barbershop that's going, well, who was stopping all it is from happening? It seems like the assault on Bali autonomy, which was a Heritage Foundation principle, they organize around it, raised billions of dollars, changed the definition of what it meant to be a conservative politician to one that was almost exclusively pro-life over the course of 50 some odd years, then waited for the right moment, and then they struck.

And they did the same thing with voting rights. How did it happen? Are we going to overwhelm the polls and then put a bunch of people in power? Then 30 years from now, 10 years from now, 5 years from now, I have to overwhelm the polls every single time. Is there no responsibility to the people that have been in power to protect these rights that have been enshrined on our behalf? Absolutely.

So let's do it in two parts. So the first part is what you just laid out about who the opposition is. And we often hear these days about authoritarianism versus democracy. So very quickly, you know, as a nation, we've always had the sort of shared lexicon of what we want. We call it a more perfect union. We've always had the same destination. We've always been heading towards this more perfect union. We just disagreed about how we were going to get there.

So Democrats used Apple Maps. Republicans were using Google Maps. Independents use ways and they like crash into people's houses. But we all were on the same path. We're all going towards this place. But what the Heritage Foundation, what this conservative enterprise has had in mind for the last 60 years, has been like, eh, we don't really like democracy. We like authoritarianism. Instead of us using democracy as the path.

we're now completely differing on the destination. So authoritarianism has three goals. Number one, and people are like, what is authoritarianism? Ignore everything you hear from political scientists. One, it is about seizing power from people. Two, it's about hoarding that power for the benefit of a small group of people. Call it tech bros, oligarchs, the right wing, whatever you want, but it's seizing or the Trump family, but it's seizing power and hoarding it in a small group. groups of people. And then third, it's about never being accountable for what you do with that

power. It's why you don't like elections because they can get rid of you. It's why you don't like laws because they can put you in jail. It's why they try to create a $1.8 billion slush fund. So there's no accountability. So that's authoritarianism. Democracy is the only antidote we have is about how do you share power? How do you then leverage that power for the benefit of others and then how do you get held accountable for that power for a very long time we were arguing over which map we were forgetting to argue about where we were headed and so that's why you've ended up with a lot of politicians who have not been delivering because they weren't having we weren't having the same conversation we were we were like oh we're all going the same way and we can

negotiate how we get there was a trust there was a trust but there was also a naivete like i've been reading what we call Project 2025 is actually something called the mandate for leadership. The Heritage Foundation has been putting it out since 1980. I'm a big old nerd. So when I was in college, in 1992, I helped, I worked on Bill Clinton's campaign. And then I was reading something in the New York Times the following year about the mandate for leadership and this paperwork, this booklet that this group called the Heritage Foundation put out.

So I asked for a copy. You could put it in the mail. You could mail them a request for a copy and they send it to you. back when we used stamps and stuff. And so I have been reading the mandate for leadership. It comes out every four years and has come out every four years since Reagan got elected. They have never wavered in how much they dislike the destination. They have been very clear.

But what they realized is that if they shifted it and called it something nice, but treated it as authoritarianism, they could get what they wanted. Those of us who still want a democracy just presume that everyone, had the same intention and we were going to get around to it eventually. And that gets to the crux of your question. I do not tell people to vote because voting is a good thing to do. That's romantic. I vote because I grew up black in Mississippi because I came of age black in Georgia. And I saw people who voted consistently got more stuff that the people who got elected

who looked like the communities that I was from who had to. the same experiences were more likely to do something about it. It wasn't perfect, but it was more likely. I vote because it's the most practical response I can think of to poverty, injustice, to sexism, to all of the isms. I vote because I meet people who get to share my power to speak up on my behalf. Number two, I believe that we have the responsibility to think about those who don't vote. you are not wrong if you're sitting in the barbershop saying I keep electing people they didn't do anything because we treat voting as the beginning and the end voting is the beginning

that's like thinking that you can show up at the NBA finals and win but never had to go to practice never have to show up for games never had to lose you have to lose sometimes you don't get everything you want in a democracy you have to practice democracy over and over again because other people are practicing too if you're the Knicks versus the Spurs that's like assuming that because the Knicks won, the Spurs are never going to play again. They're out there practicing right now because they want their title back. And so we have to think of politics like that.

We have to think of voting like that. It is not just about overwhelming the polls that day. It's about then showing up and saying, did you do what I ask you to do? And not wait two to four years to ask the question, but ask the question every time they show up, we show up. And so a lot of my work is about not just how do we vote, but what do we do with that shared power to make sure they're leveraging it for the benefit of others. And when they don't, then we do the accountability part that I mentioned, which is we vote them out of office and vote new people in.

And how do you look? Because it's, I can only imagine how hard it is with there being so much on social media, so many people have microphones, so many platforms where you're having to constantly combat misinformation that's out there. And I guess I'm wondering how do you, or maybe what's the strategy of continuing, keeping the energy going to like it's one thing if there's a big you know I'm from Texas so obviously huge primary that happened in March it's easy to get people into it people are doing talking about identity politics they're very well-known politicians involved and so people run to the polls and they

vote but then in some of those off elections or down ballot elections how do you continue to get people and I guess I'll frame this in with the decision in Kallay because when you see a decision like that, and then you see immediately in Louisiana where there was a primary already underway and they suspended it. So you've already exercised your right. And then you see in Alabama where a court had already ruled that you can't use that map. And then it becomes available to be used again. How do you defeat that kind of stuff? Like I did exactly what you told me to do. I went, I voted. They told me, oh, they're throwing it out because they're going to redraw the maps their way. Like how do so, and I don't even know if you know the answer.

answer to this. But I guess the whole thing I'm trying to say is to keep it going, to keep that energy there to encourage people to realize how important it is. One of the reasons I created what I call the Ten Steps campaign. And that's one of the things that's not quite on my resume all the time, but it's a big part of my life right now. The Ten Steps campaign is about exactly that. So there are ten things that people do to take our power. And right now it's an authoritarian regime trying to seize our power, hoard it for others, and not be held accountable. So there are 10 things they do. There are 10 things we know if we do consistently. We win. We get what we need. We have to commit ourselves to knowing what we are entitled to. We have to share what we know.

So misinformation works because we have siloed ourselves from information. This podcast, higher learning podcast, is one of the ways you defeat authoritarianism, but it's also one of the ways you defend and enliven democracy. Because when people hear that there's possibility, when they hear about the stories of the places where it's worked, they are more willing to actually keep showing up. You have to organize and mobilize, which sound like big, boring things to do. But organizing, I'm from the church. You're from Louisiana. You're from Texas. I'm from Mississippi. We know that we're two or more gathered. You have church. You have three. You have a choir. You have five. You've got an usher board. So we know organizing doesn't take that much.

And then we mobilize. And mobilizing is also not that big a deal because sometimes it's showing up at the school board meeting every month for three months because you know they're not treating your children well and that they haven't bought the books that they said they were going to buy with the taxes that you paid. When we keep showing up at that school board meeting, they get tired of us because they realize we're going to keep showing up until their election. And one of those people who's showing up of that five might go for that seat. And so part of the responsibility is not just casting the ballot with excitement. It's remembering that now that you've got that power, you've got to use it regularly. And it's not exciting. It is not interesting. I went to city council meetings and county commission meetings as a college student.

I told you I was really boring. I was very much a nerd. But I went because my older sister went to Agnes Scott College, which in Decatur, Georgia's beautiful campus, beatific. they've got, you know, bookstores and coffee shops nearby. I went to Spelman. Love Spelman. But outside of Spelman College was a public housing authority, one of the oldest public housing buildings in the state, and three liquor stores.

And my question was, why did she get bookstores and I got liquor stores? And when I asked the question, I was told it's city council zoning. So I started going to zoning committee meetings. So part of our job is that, yes, we may elect people to speak for us, but we need to make sure we're showing up to tell them what to say. And when we don't show up to tell them what to say, they will say what they want because they're saying what it takes to stay in office. And so part of our responsibility, and Rachel, I appreciate you raising the question, is that it's not the exciting parts. It's the hard, consistent parts. And that's why I use the example of sports. There is not a

person who follows sports who thinks you can just wake up and win. We know you've got to go at it again and again and again and that you're going to lose sometimes and win sometimes, you're going to get injured. Something's going to happen, but you do it anyway because the goal is that ultimate victory. Democracy has to feel that way because democracy is just about what gets delivered for us. It is not about this philosophical notion of geopolitical organization. It is about the practical question of do I get what I need to live the life I deserve and take care of the people that I love. That's what we should be working towards. Do you know what I think rather unintelligently is the greatest impediment to that?

It is the fact that when you're talking about sports, I think it's a perfect analogy. But when you're talking about sports, you're talking about imposing yourself. So when you practice your jumper, you're practicing your jumper so that when you get open, you can hit it, right? So that you can score. When you're practicing a move, you're practicing on how to beat the defense. You're practicing your a move, then a counter than something else. You're practicing how to beat a defense, how to impose yourself. Even when you talk about sports, you're imposing your will on someone, even demoralizing your

opponent, like breaking your opponent. But it is a battle of wills. And I don't think people, particularly a lot of black people that I know, look at American politics like that. They look at it as harm reduction. And because they look at it as I vote to reduce the amount of things that are done to me rather than I vote so that I can do something, I think they feel like they have less skin in the game.

Do you, how do you? I think that was an incredibly intelligent way to frame it because it has been harm reduction because we in the black community were the original victims of political harm. We were a population whose entire premise was that we were not entitled to the humanity of our very existence.

And so everything we have done has been about harm reduction. But I think that is a self-limiting framework. And my excitement about the work that I do and the reason I create a lot of organizations and talk about this so often is that I've seen what can happen when we shift our mindset from harm reduction to victory. When we start to think we can win, when we start to think we deserve things, when we start to believe that we can control the levers of power, that changes your mindset.

Now, our population size is insufficient on its own to win without help, which is why I believe in coalitions. And I think, Rachel, to your point about what's happening in Texas, it's a coalition building moment. It's what we did in Georgia. When I ran in 2018, I was a black woman running for an office, first black woman in American history to get the nomination. But I knew that if every black person in Georgia voted, it would be insufficient for victory. And it would be insufficient, not just for winning an election, it would be insufficient for building the coalition of the willing and the likely that we need it. I don't want to win with just one group. In fact, and the work that I want to do should serve all. But you've got to build a coalition. And that coalition, that team, because you got your jump, you've got your guards, you've got your centers, your forwards. You have a team because not everyone can play the same position. They may all have similar skills, but some of them are just better. And some people are just taller. Yeah. And the scrappy person may get underestimated, but you got to go and get that person too.

And so part of our responsibility as we think about our politics is how, what team do we build? And I may not like the fact that you got traded from a team I hated because they picked you in the first round and they picked me seventh round and I'm still bitter. Or you beat me and I don't have a ring. I'm still going to play with you because when you're on my team, my responsibility is for all of us to succeed and for all of us to succeed. and for all of us to be positioned. But back to harm reduction, if you're only fighting to reduce harm, then you are satisfied with not being hurt that day.

When you are fighting for victory, then your margin and your metric is what does success look like. And that's where they have gotten away with so much because we've forgotten to demand success. But I don't expect anyone to want more for me than I want for myself. and that's why I vote. That's why I write.

That's why I do all of the things I do because no one's ever going to want more for me than I want for myself and no one's ever going to work harder for me than I will for myself. And so my job is to do what I can to make sure they remember that I'm watching. I believe you said that politics is a tool.

It's not the only one. So which tools, and maybe this kind of goes into what you're saying, which tools are you using right now? Okay. So I write novels because one of the challenges that we have, and I think, Van, this goes to your point about just sort of the architecture out there. There are all these policies that happen to us and happen around us, but we don't think we have the intellectual heft or the bandwidth to understand it. I write romance novels, legal thrillers, children's books, nonfiction, but I always try to make certain that when you come into a story I write, that I meet you with respect for your intelligence and your curiosity. And so, yes, it'll be a romance novel where, you know, the guy's really cute and the woman's really pretty, but you're also going to

learn about, you know, geologic formations and ethnobotany. My most recent novel is about AI. I'm writing one right now about privatization because I want people to come in in a place where they can hear and absorb and be entertained and be challenged. But, you know, you know, you know, Entertainment matters. People, politics is downstream of culture for a reason. People have to believe something as possible and imagine it as necessary before they'll take action to make it so. And so one of the tools I use is creativity. I try to write and produce because I want people to imagine better. I organize. I start organizations. I have, in addition to the work that I didn't voter registration, I started fair fight to fight for the infrastructure democracy. Fair count,

because the census, which too many of our community ignore, if you didn't get PPE during COVID, it was because your community was undercounted in the last census. We have to get counted because that is how they're using the numbers right now. The reason Tennessee could gerrymanders so quickly, the reason Louisiana and Alabama and Texas and Mississippi all lost seats that were designed for people of color was because in 2020, organizations like Fair Count made sure that we had the highest count of black and brown people this country had ever seen. And we got extra seats for it. And they've been mad ever since.

I started a group called Seat, which focuses on, I call it translating progressive policy into Southern. I created the Ten Steps campaign because I think authoritarianism can be defeated. I created the American Pride Rises Network because DEI is how you create a pluralistic democracy and they don't like it because they know it works. And so one of my tools is I create organizations, but I also join organizations. And I encourage people to do that. You don't have to be the one to do it. You can just be there to help people get it done. But ultimately, I think one of our most effective tools is our capacity for community. And we underestimate it. You mentioned the barbershop.

And I know, Rachel, you spend a lot of time thinking about how people get brought together. When we are together, this connection means that we also start to feel empathy. And empathy means we're going to be willing to do more to make sure people don't face harm. But we also do more to make sure that they have joy. And so even if you don't think you're political, if you're a person, you've got skin in this game. And those are tools you can use. If you're good at talking to people, if you're good at listening to people, that's a tool that you can use because people want to tell you what's wrong and they want to hear you tell them how to make it right. So I'm out the barbershop now.

Now I'm the dude at the gym. Okay. We hoop in. We're doing whatever. Okay. And while we at the gym, the news is on or like whatever. It depends on where you're at. If I'm out here, it's probably like CNN or whatever.

But if I'm back home, I was working out in Baton Rouge. just nothing but Fox News that they play in the gym. I see y'all down there. Okay, so I see up there and it says, voter ID. They go, oh, we need voter ID. And I go, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I agree with them.

We need voter ID. That makes a lot of sense. You should have to prove who you are to vote. We need voter ID. I'm the dude at the gym. I'm going to look at you. I'm like, why are you against voter ID? It seems like the president and everybody else is right.

We need voter ID. What would you say to me? They're lying. So first and foremost, I wrote a book about voter ID. It's called Our Time is Now, the Fight for Fair America, Power, Purpose, and Fight for Fair America. There is not a state in the U.S. that does not require voter identification. That's not the conversation. What they are asking for is a restrictive photographic ID that is limited in who can have it, limited in how you can use it, and limited in how you get it.

So you're from Louisiana. I'm from, grew up in Mississippi. I'm in Georgia. Rachel, I'm going to pick on you in Texas. In Texas, you can use your gun license to vote, but not your student ID. Both of those are state issued identification. But in Texas, you can use your gun license, but not your student identification. So they're not arguing about voter ID.

They're arguing about who you are when they ID who you are. Every state in America requires voter identification. They don't all require the same. same identification, and they don't all require the same backdrop for that identification. Here's a reason why. In 2016 in Wisconsin, Wisconsin had a law that said that you could not vote unless you had a photo ID, but it also said that you had to have a, I think it was a certified, no, it had to be an original birth certificate. Well, if you were a black person born before 1965 in the South, it was highly likely you were not born in a hospital.

that gave you an original birth certificate. You had to get a certified copy because you got born somewhere else and you had to go and get the county to acknowledge that you were born. Well, a black woman in Wisconsin was denied the right to vote. They literally would not let her cast a ballot

because she could not produce a piece of paper she was not legally permitted to have. So when they argue that this is about identification, they are lying. They know who we are. That's why they keep coming after us. It is how restrictive are the rules so that they can limit who can have that identification.

I completely support voter ID. I will fight tooth and nail against the SAVE Act, which is trying to create such a restrictive system that they winnow out and filter out the people they don't like so they can't have a voice in our democracy. No, it's so true. There's a lot of news this, what is? today, Thursday, this week with, sorry.

It's okay. It's been a long week. There are, obviously, the August primaries have been a lot of conversation, a lot of key races, people, things that people are focusing on. When you look, I'm sure, I know you pay attention to it all, especially like the key ones. What, if anything, did the results from the primary this week tell you when it comes to voters? Did you recognize anything with voter turnout? Did you recognize with anything with in the way that they voted?

What does it say about anything? And if it does, what does it tell you about the midterms? So one, I remain heartened by who is showing up. We have more people voting. And while primaries are not the same as a general, primaries are really about who do we think we like the best? the general election is who's going to treat us the best. And those are two different questions. And so I know there's a lot of consternation and angst about who's being selected in primaries

across this country. And I would argue that the whole point of a primary is to have that fight. If two people, I don't know if you were, I don't know, in a public contest where people have to decide who do they like. And they may or may not get roses based on it. But that's okay. I have no idea at your time. Exactly.

But you want people to woo you. Primary voters, we want to figure out what's the profile of who we think we like. But the general election is who's going to treat us best. And in the general, we have a very clear set of narratives where there is one suitor who has been consistent for the last two years, the last 60 years, I would say, but certainly the last two years, that they don't care about me, they don't care about my future, they have been intentional about being mean to my friends, they have been violent towards some of the people I know, and they have held no accountability for what they've done. On the other side, there's a suitor that maybe when

they asked me out, I was like, nah, I don't like you. I want somebody else because they're more in my speed. Yeah. But they still want to help me. They still want to show. They still want to take me out. They still want to make sure they ask, how was my day? And they listen to my answer. And they have ideas about what we can do this weekend. And they will not abuse me. They will not harm me.

They will make mistakes, but they're going to do their best because they've told me they want to make me better and make me happy. Who do I date? I pick the person who at least pretends they want my benefit. Not the person who has been clear and unambiguous that they are aligned with someone who says that I don't deserve to be here. And if I am here, I don't deserve anything. anything for being here. And if I manage to stay here, they don't want to hear from me while I am here.

That's the difference. And so as we think about the Sturman-Drawn and arguments about the labels, you have to remember, I don't care about your label. I care about who you are and what you want for me. People don't care about your politics. They care about their lives. And you've got one group of people who've held power now, who have done everything in their power to use that. leverage to create harm. They fired 600,000 black women across this country. They have raised the unemployment rate among black and brown men to astronomical levels. They have killed people. And we have a Supreme Court that is beholden to them that has said is okay for us to be stopped and searched because of our skin color, our accent, and the language that we speak,

and that we could be deported for that reason. That's who they are. If you are anyone who believes that I deserve to be here and have a voice and have protection and have health care and have housing and have education and have justice, then I believe this midterm is going to be a referendum on who do we want to date. And I want to date the person who actually wants to be with me.

How drastic, how drastic, do you think America is harming itself by not embracing the leadership of black women? Last night, a couple of nights ago we saw Cory Bush lost for primary Jackson Crockett loss, Kamala Harris loss. When I hear you talk, I just think about what could have been in Georgia. Some of those races closer than others. How just ask the question again, by not embracing brilliant, qualified, capable, visionary black women, like some of the women I just named, how badly do you think

America is harming itself? I think any time we do not select for who is the most likely to serve us and serve our needs, we are undermining our long-term goals. Black women are the most likely to suffer from the indignities and the pathologies of America. politics. Therefore, we are the most likely community to have figured out how to navigate them if we are positioned to stand for public office. It is not a one-to-one correlation that because you're a black woman, you are qualified. And no one is arguing that. But it is a one-to-one correlation that if I have survived something, I probably know something about how to make sure you don't get harmed by it too. And so we have missed opportunities because we have been conditioned

to believe that certain populations are better prepared for the work. And I'm here to tell you that politics is about how our lives are lived. There are people who say, oh, I'm not in politics. I'm like, politics is into you, and it is a stalker. Politics decides how old you are before you can drive, what kind of food you can eat, clearly whether we can have lettuce or not. All these are political decisions. I failed victim. I apologize. I didn't do it. I'm sorry. But the reason that matters is that we get into these moments where our rareification of who should hold the job is premised on who we've seen hold the job. Well, if for 250 years, we've been here 250 years, for 235 of those years, only certain people could participate. And then when more people started joining, when black women started amassing,

both the resources and the platform, we cannot be surprised that we aren't automatically successful, but we can be intentional about making certain that we widen the aperture and we have more success. I'm the best loser I know. I lost not once but twice on a very public stage for a job I think I was qualified to hold. But that does not mean that I stop trying. It may mean that I don't keep trying for the same job every time. And sometimes you guys take a nap. But it should never be used as a pretext for saying that black women can't win.

Black women understand the pain in this country because we have often been the victims of that pain and the crucible through which they tested the best means to inflict that pain. therefore if we want solutions we should look for those who've already figured out how to navigate that pain and bring others with them i'll ask a follow-up question there let's say we're talking about democracy you know i'm a self-respecting black man i love my people i love my culture right let's say there are two people running one of them is a black woman and one of them is not a black woman and for whatever reason the person that is not a black woman seems to be the one that I gravitate towards. How do I need to, A, deal with my own internalized misogynar war and, like, look myself in the mirror and suffalade and do all of that stuff?

Or is it possible that there are cases where there's something outside of identity that animates you to vote for a candidate? And I'm going to start with the second part of your question. Identity is more than race or gender or sexual orientation or ability, physical ability or disability. Identity is anything that helps define how you navigate the world. Now, race is the strongest predictor because it impacts and informs so many of the decisions that have been made in this nation. The whole idea of critical race theory was the analysis of all of the ways the systems have been designed based on race as an identity and as a proxy for denying action. So it's important for us to understand that's why they didn't like CRT. Right.

Because critical race theory was like, here's a list of all the things they've done to you and why you can't have all the things that you deserve. Right. Okay. But it's not the only identity. And I would never be so reductive as to say that you have to make your choices based on only one identity because depending on where you live, your station in life, your needs and your aspirations, another identity may have primacy and that's perfectly fine.

So that's the first thing. Second is I'm going to stick up for black men here because I was used as a exhibit in 2022 where people would say that I didn't, that I didn't want black men to win, black men didn't want me to win, which was completely wrong. I had the same polling numbers among black men as a black man, Raphael Warnock. We had these same numbers. In fact, there's a New York Times article about it. and it's like buried deep in like, you know, paragraph 7 or 10, or they acknowledge we have the same polling numbers.

I will never let people tell me that black men don't love their sisters as much as their sisters love black men. Like that is wrong. And that's not what you said, but it is a, it is a misinformation trope that has been permeated in our community as a way to divide us from each other and it is wrong. Now, black women are the most likely to vote for black women. Black men are next. Now, is there chauvinism in the world?

Yes. I don't think that they're out of the show. That's a different conversation. And this is your show, so I was about to be really polite about it. Oh, we haven't many of times. I'm just playing. I'm just playing. So, yeah, I mean, sexism plays a role, and it's the gap between the 92% and the 82%.

Right. Okay. But that's not the same as the 47%. And I think we spend. so much of our time in argumentation about that gap as opposed to in collaboration about how we close it. I do not want you to vote for me because I am a black woman, but I want you to acknowledge that because I'm a black woman, I understand things that you need in a way and at a level that others may not. And that if you want to elect someone who will serve your needs,

it's probably best that you pick someone who actually believes that your needs need to be served. Do you believe that it is harmful to play into the identity of identity politics? No. When a candidate is running? Not at all. So you never lead with that. And that's why I've been, I've read stories about how I ran as a black woman when I ran in 2018 and people first started to get to know. Oh, you're supposed to run that?

A draft? Yeah. I'm like, I'm saying it's like, you can't miss me. But the argument was that I made my entire campaign about my blackness and my gender. I didn't, never once. But I never denounced, denied, or denigrated that those were parts of me that were incredibly important. And that was my point a moment ago. My experiences made me the person who could stand for that office.

You don't vote for me because I'm a black woman. But because I'm a black woman, you know that my experiences, my identity prepared me to provide the services that I wanted to provide as a political leader. Identity is a, it is a metric. It shows you what you prioritize. And if you do not acknowledge it, you are doing a disservice. Because we do not, we do not see stories about that farmer should never mention he's a farmer. That, you know, military veterans should never mention their veteran. The only time we hear the negative attacks based on identity, it's when it's an immutable characteristic that might actually tell people, here's something that could benefit you that does not look like the norm.

When identity is used as a characteristic to inform, it is good. When it is used as a justification to deny, it is problematic. And we are sophisticated enough that we should be able to tell the difference and we should ignore anyone who tells us that we're not smart enough to know. I have to follow up with this based off that question. Is running for office off the table for you? Not at all. It is a tool. And right now I'm using the tool of trying to save democracy by talking.

I have a podcast and I have a substack and I write books. There's a time. So I'm the daughter of pastors. There is a time and a place for everything under the sun. And there's a season. This cycle was not my season. but it is not that I am done. I just have to be ready for the right thing.

And that's the other part for me. I have like 12 backup plans. So for me, politics is an incredibly important tool that I have. But I do not require office to have the platform or the intention. And so when you read the litany of things I do, I like to tell people, you know, I travel all the lanes on the freeway. And the destination for me is what is always true. And the destination is, I believe, that people deserve a democracy that can deliver.

I think that poverty is immoral. I think it is economically inefficient. I think it is solvable. But I think poverty is more than just economic deprivation. It is a moral precarity when we don't think that we deserve more. It is the sense of isolation. those are poverty that we can solve

but you cannot solve them if you don't acknowledge them and you can't fix them if you aren't willing to stay in the game when you don't get the thing you wanted. So coded justice is the latest

in a series of books you have a character called Avery King New York Times bestselling author wow novelist wow so I've seen that like just recently

you've been optioned and that we might see Avery King coming to movies or television or something like that? So Avery Keane. Her most recent novel is Coded Justice available in a bookstore near you. Robite. Yes. Especially small independent bookstores. But buy wherever you want to.

And it's about AI. Basically, it's about a tech company that's about to go public. And they hire Avery to do an investigation. And there are a few murders. And the question is who or what. admitted the murder because AI is smarter than we think. Avery's stories, starting with Wild Justice Leaps, has been optioned. So we are actually in development right now.

And then separately, I actually wrote a series of romance novels. And my novel Rules of Engagement is currently in development with Simpson Street. Wow. Amazing. Oh, yeah. The AI one, that's not the one they're going to make. They don't, they go wait for that one. because you're pitching all the ideas.

I have one when we talk about the dangers of AI. Amazon's going to go, let's make a pause on that. Well, Van, let me tell you the first one. So while Justice Sleeps, I wrote that actually in 2010. And it was about a rogue president who was involved in international intrigue and a Supreme Court that was inert and unable to act.

And when I tried to sell it, I tried, no, I tried to sell it. Perhaps I tried to sell it in 2010. and publishers are like, no president would do that and nobody cares about the Supreme Court. Ten years later, when it published in 2020, it seemed to matter. And so the second one after that was about the energy crisis and perhaps people using too much energy and maybe being able to manipulate the energy grid to destroy access to society and the FISA court, which is the secret court that can surveil Americans without us knowing about it. So that's rogue justice. and then Code of Justice is about AI.

So if you want to know about what's happening in politics and policy, but you don't want to wait and see it on CNN, pick up a novel by Stacey Abrams in the justice year. We talked about psychic ability earlier. What are you talking about? What are you doing? So you're in development, so I'm not supposed to ask you this, but I'm going to ask you anyway, who would you want to play her?

No, no, no. See, I knew I hadn't written down. She will not answer this question. Will you tell people why I'm not going to? answer the question. Well, I would like, no, no, you tell them why. Well, I mean, she's, you know, if she, number one, the reason why I wouldn't answer it if I were

in development is, number one, you wouldn't want to scare people off from trying to attach the role. And number two, you've probably had some conversations already about people that might be able to play it and you don't want to, but now there's another way you can look at this. You could, if you already know, just throw people off the scent or take this opportunity to, you know,

big up some of the really talented black women out there in the space if you wanted to do something because that's what I would do is I might say hey he's five great beautiful talented black women but I love black women like that so maybe you don't want to do that I would love to do that the problem is there's number six number seven number eight number nine that's right and and I'm a really good politician absolutely can't you be up but I but just just just real quick I like literally have it written down this is not going to answer that but like and you shouldn't but really what is it like to see a character that you've dreamed. Look at the esteemed. I want everybody, I want everyone to peep what just happened. I said that and she, you're proud of that.

I am. To know that that came out of your mind in this way from the creative part of who you are, people might get to see it and attach to it and feel it in a different way. I just saw, I just saw that happen. That means a lot to you.

It does. So two things happened when you said that. So I lost my father recently. And my dad was dyslexic. He grew up in the Jim Crow South in Mississippi and was a young black man who couldn't read because he was dyslexic and didn't get diagnosed. He was just told he was stupid. My dad memorized his way through school, never missed a day of school because the only way he could learn was to actually be there to hear it because it was amazing oral memory. A dad read every single Avery Keene novel.

and he would talk about her like she was real. And my parents lived with me for a few years. So they lived with me while I was writing rogue justice and coded justice. Because I write every coming out. They come out every couple of years. And he would, I would write in the basement of my house and I come upstairs. And he's like, so what's Avery up to right now? And he would be, or when he was reading it, he's like, he would call me in.

Why did Avery do that? Like she was a person. And he got mad because she made some choice. And I'm like, I'll talk to her about it. Like, she was real. But when you said that, like, it was for a second there, I just, I could hear my dad smiling at that question because it matters to imagine something and to commit to giving it form and shape and life and then have someone see it.

That's just a joy and it's a privilege. Wow. Yeah, congratulations. You do everything. As a Delta, I just want to say. So I hate to say that. I'm a whisper back to you. You're not?

My, Leslie is the Delta. That's my younger. Oh, you played yourself. No, no, no, no. No, no. No, no. No, no. You are not.

Leave it in the podcast. No, you are not. I'm glad that it happened. I think she is. Let me look it up and I like, and I like saw it in multiple. And I'm going to tell you. And this is, this is why.

So, Van, I'm going to defend Rachel on this one. I have been claimed by multiple sororities. I am me-fi-me. Me-fi-me. I pledged that at Spelman and I have remained that way ever since. But my sister Leslie is a Delta. Not to interrupt you.

I just let you know while you were doing that, you were doing like this. That's just because I'm so... She was, while she was saying that. That's just because I'm Southern. Look at the colors! Oh! Rachel!

Look like she was doing like the... I think she's really... What mess are you trying to create? This is a big on the podcast. Yes, he always trying to... to do this. It is not too late for you. We would love to have you. I like that the rumors out there. See, I shouldn't have said anything because then everybody would have just thought it. Everybody would just thought it. Last question, I'll say to you because this isn't lost on me that this

week is the 60, actually today as we're recording is the 61st anniversary of the Voting Rights Act. We started off talking about it about how there's been this backsliding of how it's been chipped away. We asked you questions about like, so what's, yes, democratic backsliding, a term you use. We've talked about how it's been shipped away. We talked about what do we have left of it? And then you've given us so much hope and what to focus on. But if you could make a statement today, kind of marking where we are, 61 years since that historic moment, what would you say?

I would say that it took us from 1787 or 1776, but really 1787, until 1965 for this country to match its, ethic with its ethos. And there are those who would do everything in their power to take us back. We do not have to go. But we also don't have to use their tools to build what we need. This is a moment where we can start deciding the kind of country we want. And it is going to take time and effort.

We are going to succeed and fail. But the Voting Rights Act did not just manifest out of nothing. It was born out of harm and pain and ambition and power and intention. And if we harness those things, we will celebrate in 60 years, not just the renewal of the Voting Rights Act, but the sanctification of voting as the way we hold our power in this country. And that's the work I want to do. Wow. I have a last question as well.

you're a very accomplished poet we've seen that before so basically you're kind of a rapper what I want to do is give me three absolutely filthy rap songs that you love this most disgusting dirty violent just think about it

you just catch yourself seeing and you're like oh my God why how could I do that just filthy crazy shit that Stacey Abrams likes it's amazing how the microphone just went out I can't I don't understand what happened I was waiting for the political response yes Stacy Giam one one old macdonald had a farm

no i e i oh stacey a bruce trying to get you trying to clip her she's too good um i sincerely hope we see your name on the ballot uh sooner rather than later but if not i'm from this conversation as interested and invested into what you're doing with your creative mind than anything else we are so happy and blessed that you join us on the podcast today Thank you so much. Van and Rachel, thank you for having. This is a delight.

Van, I'm sure you saw this, right? No, I didn't see this. What is this? You told me not to look. Do you see that? No, who is this? That is David Banner.

Oh, that is David Banner. Shit. You didn't see this video? I haven't seen this. Performing at a UGK event, Bumbee event. Okay, shout out of Boney. Obviously the song that he collaborates.

Let's run it back one more time with the intro, how he comes out. Because this is, this went viral, as you can imagine. I didn't see it. Because we haven't seen. I'm off Twitter. We haven't seen David Banner. Viral on threads on social media.

Look at that. Look at that energy. That's the fuck I'm talking about. A lot of people were talking about this because they looked at David Banner and they saw the wig. Okay. They said, wow, even see David Banner wear that. Saw the way that he moved.

Okay. Light on his feet, skipping in. I looked at that and I saw, I said to myself, I said, Van. Okay. Van. Yeah. This is what I want for you.

I could do that right now. This is what I want. Everything that David Van did just did, I can do that. Let me tell you why to use your words. Yeah. Let me tell you why. Mm-hmm. I wish I was there because had I been there, I would have brought one of my wigs. Okay.

This is why, this is, this is why I want from you. Okay. Talk about, we witnessed your hair transition. Yeah. Okay. We witnessed the hairline come back. We talked about all the creative ways of, things that you can do with it. And you don't. You put hats on multiple ones.

You told us what you're going to do for this fall. You cover it up. Yeah. Let the hairline grow. Okay. Let the locks shine. Last week, you showed us what you, or you told us. We learned the video wasn't about you moving like that, but you, you are now on a mission to recreate that video. But you did let us know you can move like that. So when I saw this video and I looked at David Banner, I said, Van, that's who I want Van to be. I want him to be light on his feet. I want him skipping around the stage and I want him swinging his hair.

That is when I think you will reach your best. Right, right. That is you. Okay, okay. So this is what I'll say. This is what I'll say. So don't skip now. Wait till I get there and I'll bring the wig.

Number one, I could do that. Everything that David Barron just deal on the stage, I could do. I could do that, okay. Number one, I will tell y'all something about the hair. So I got to go back and get the hair done again is the thing because there are points. The hair, they brought the hair line back good.

But now I'm just going to get the hole from here filled in because it is, it, you know, it's not like the hair. I just, I need more for the hair. I need to go back to the, to the, put your head down.

Do this? I don't, I don't want to do it. Do this. I don't want to do it. I don't want to do it. It's fine. Everything's fine.

It's, but it could be darker. So I'm going to go back there and get more done. And then that's when I'm going to let my soul glow and let it flow and let it shine through and stuff like that. But if it's about the wig and about those movements, I could do that. Like, I can do that right now.

Well, I want you to grow your hair like that. I want you to be free. I want you to be light. Now, we'll wait until I return. And then you can do the move. I'll have enough space. Okay. I'll have enough space to do it.

We can get a camera to follow you. Well, we could do it. We could do it at our live show. We having a live show. Hey, you know what? How about this? How about, maybe it's not about what y'all want for me. Maybe it's about what.

We want you to be your best. I want. Maybe it's about what I want for myself. And I will say this, I will recreate, we having a live show. I will recreate that David Banner skip with the hair at the live show. No problem. I could do that right now. That's nice because you did, you did do something.

You were supposed to take your shirt off for some reason? I didn't take it off. The last live show and you didn't. So yeah, you owe, no, you did not. You owe the people. Yeah. And I think that this is what they would love to see.

I think I'm gonna do it. And your red bottoms and your two-piece suit with your brave heart wig. I'll wear exactly that same thing and I'll give the people what they want. But I'm telling y'all, this is what I'm saying to y'all, though. Y'all can tell me what y'all want for me. But I also have to be able to tell you.

tell y'all what I want from y'all. So, okay. It's not going to be about, hey, Van, get out there because if this situation will reverse and I ask you to get in a wig and dance, I would make the front page of Madam Nauruhr magazine, Ebony Jet Essence villain of the month, Van Lathen, asked Rachel Lindsay to put on a wig and dance. I'm not even going to go at it that way, because I could do this. And I'm going to take this as a challenge. I ran this morning. I ran two miles.

My pace was 10 minutes. I'm getting back. Practice you skip. Huh? What's the last time you skipped? So this is a real thing. I can't believe you just asked me this. Why?

Skipping is a real thing about it makes you feel happy. So look, hold on. So it was like 91, right? It was like 91. It was like 91. We was in California. We was living in Hawthorne. And because I did fifth and sixth grade in California.

It might have been nine. I can't remember what years was. The first year we got here, so it was 91. We came back in 92. We did two years out here. And my uncle Marvin has sent some roller skates. I don't know if I ever talked about this. My uncle Marvin has sent some roller skates down from northern California.

My uncle Marvin used to always send us a. of like part of the reason why I am the way that I am right now is because he got us a subscription to world book encyclopedias encyclopedia and I would just be in the house like just reading the encyclopedia like they had all kinds of different encyclopedias you can read it was like one that was just a book of the year and it'll be everything that happened in the whole year and I would just read through the encyclopedia it was it was crazy it's just this endless wealth of knowledge where you can learn anything you want you can go from like fucking art vark to fucking Anthony

fucking whatever it's just all of this stuff that's in there it's like Jesus Christ like you're you can if you go to Anthony in the encyclopedia it tells you where the name come from I just I could not stop but then I think that maybe my dad my mom was like don't send no more fucking encyclopedias around here van going crazy right so he sent so he like he sent some roller skates

so he sent the roller skates and bro man, I became the roller skating this nigger ever. I'm around on these roller skates all over the block skating. And I'm a big kid, man. At this point, I'm in the sixth grade. So I'm probably already about 5'9 to 5'10,

probably like 165. So I'm like a nigger. I'm like a grown man. By the time I got to high school, I was 6 foot 200. So I was, I look like a regular nigger around the fucking thing on roller skates. And my dad did not like this.

He did not like me skating everywhere. He didn't like it at all, right? But he didn't say shit. But then there was one time I was leaving York Elementary. It was where I went to elementary school. And there was two girls that were on the side of me. And they were skipping. And then to play with them.

I got in the middle of them and I started skipping too and I swear to God man hold on so I'm skipping with them and we're laughing and they think it's funny that I'm sitting and then I look up

and you're flirting was right like yeah our house was right next to the school like we lived on York so I look up and I see my dad who was pulling his truck into the fucking

driveway and he had stopped and the windows down and he was looking at me as I was skipping with the two girls and he looked and then he just drove and I'm like shit fuck I shouldn't be skipping

so I go in the house and my dad looked at me he was like take the fucking roller skates I ain't said nothing you've been around here on the motherfucking skates he said now I've seen you skip it and said now I see you skipping he said take the fucking road skates oh my god I promise y'all it was Anna and was white that told us this story like Anna was white and I forgot the little Mexican home girl's name because my man my man Alex was with her

and Anna was like there was only like two or three We and they're skipping and I see them so I start skipping I'm just playing I'm just playing and I'm skipping and I look up And it's like he the truck The window the truck was rolled down and he got his hat kind of flipped up He looks and then he just pulls into the thing I'm like God damn I'm in trouble this nigga to see me skipping He getting and that was the end of the roller skates

He said take the roller skates put the motherfucking roller skates in the fucking thing. Okay. I used to, because even when he would see me roller skating, I knew he didn't like it, but like I would talk him with the roller skates. So like, he would see me, he'd be looking at me

skating, because I don't know why he thought maybe skating was feminine or something. He would see me skating. With no skate culture when niggas doing cool shit and being flying the skates, this is me skating around the neighborhood, right? So he would see me on the skates and now I would just do something like skate backwards, I would just fuck with him. You know what I mean?

Because mom was, I'd skate up the stairs, skate down the stick. Yes, mom, mom had no problem with this, but he saw the skipping and he put the skipping together with the roller skates. Well, he had never seen you skip until you started skiing. You had never seen me skip. And you know it was a gateway? You know what the thing is?

I do not think that I have skipped since. That's the answer to this question. What a full circle moment. Wow. I am happy to bring it back. Y'all, this was so. funny because even the people I was with like your daddy look because I come back to school the next day and I was like your daddy is mean like your daddy is mean because they see them

right there that nigger wasn't playing with that shit oh my god bro shit the timing of it all that's hilarious that that's a true story and then he started holding on a little tight he started like I'll be sitting around he'd be like all right come on we're going to play baseball I'm like I love playing baseball like come on like just fucking nail it. and ground balls at me. That's like a mood. You have to write that scene into something you do one day. Because the idea, I know you were so happy.

Like I see the smile on your face because you were with two girls that you like. You're smiling. You're skipping. You're having good time. And then bam. Like the way your smile had to dis- you have to, that is such a funny thing. I was like, shit. Not like when I'm talking about, I was skipping.

Because they're skipping. They're just playing, right? Everybody's just playing. Like, they're playing. They live in a Blood Haven. They're like, whatever. Like, they plan. And like, so I see them skipping.

So I'm skipping too. I'm jumping around and shit. It's just the worst possible time. It's the last time I skipped. All right. Let's get the fuck out of here. Well, let's bring it back 30 year anniversary. 30 year anniversary.

No, 30, yeah. 35 year anniversary. Skip aversary. York Ellen. Just imagine what a difference it'll be. Instead, it'll be a, crowd of people saying, go van, go van. I'll be skipping.

Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe me and Jade will get on both sides to you. We skipped. I remember, like, that was Ms. Dalaide's class. I remember Ms. Dalaide's the last story I'll tell real quick. So Ms. Dalaide was my fifth grade teacher and then Mr. Newbauer was my six-grade teacher. Mr. Newbauer has passed away, but Mr. Newbauer was the teacher that let me, I directed a play.

Like Mr. Newbauer, Mr. Newbauer had done a play where he took Beatles songs and he put

him into a play and I directed the play. Like he saw me hanging around and stuff like that he was like I directed to play

Mr. Newbarrow's school he's passed away now. But Ms. Dahlha at one time came into the class and was trying to teach

and we were like this is a L.A. thing. She was trying to teach and she was doing like, she was like, this really happened, guys.

She was like writing this stuff. and like one of the homies goes Duane went I remember these kids now Duane Jerome all of these people that lived on my fucking Marcy and them live right now

they just for some reason that these memories just exploded into my head and so she's trying to like she's trying to like teach class and Duane goes yo what's wrong with you and she goes I was in a bank robbery

I swear I was just like she goes I was in a bank robbery and then she turns around and tells a fifth grade class the harrowing tale of how she went into the bank and niggas ran into the bank like heat

and robbed the fucking bank and like she tells the story about the guy comes in and it was funny because she told it she goes the guy comes in and she screams and he goes and she goes and he went shut up bitch She was like, so the first time I ever heard one of my tickets.

She said that to the class? Yes, she did. I swear, I promise you. She goes, she goes, and he puts the gun up and he goes, shut up, bitch. She needed to talk to somebody. She needed to tell somebody. She's like, my thing is, like, why you come to school, though? Like, what time did this happen?

Like, she in the bank and the, like, I got so many questions. It happened the day before or, like, whatever, but she had to get it off her chest and, like, legitimately. For the rest of the class, for the rest of the day, because remember this is the fifth grade. So we in the same place, the same class the whole day just switching subs and stuff. Putting books under the fucking desk and all of that shit.

Like got the desk open. You put the books inside of it. And for the rest of the fucking day, that's what she talked about. Ms. Dollar High talked about the fact that she had been in the bank robbery. And even when enrichment came, we went to her enrichment. We went inside enrichment.

And when it was in enrichment, she talked about it in enrichment. I'm like, God damn, is she going to get over this, and she was going to get to his ability to. She wasn't okay. She wasn't. She was traumatized. All right, man.

It's crazy. I got more York Elementary. It was only two years there, but going to elementary school in Hawthorne was like funny. I got more York Elementary stories. I'm going to break them out. I haven't really told very many stories from Hawthorne and all of that shit. Ebony would probably be better at that because she was running the streets. Take a thing, caps, all, but do not stop learning.

I'm Van Latham, Jr. I'm Rachel and Lucy. My guy. Thank you.