Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - All-Out War, or Deescalation? And Crowning the "Face of The Ringer"

Episode Date: June 24, 2025

Rachel’s back! And the U.S. is on the brink of war! Rep. Ro Khanna joins to bring congressional perspective to our involvement in the Israel-Iran conflict, before HuffPost’s Akbar Shahid Ahmed returns to help dig into Iran’s retaliation on a U.S. military base. (0:00)  Intro (17:24)  Rep. Ro Khanna joins the show   (29:54)  Authorizing strikes without Congress (34:08)  Andrew Cuomo vs. Zohran Mamdani (49:32)  Akbar Shahid Ahmed (52:25)  Trump’s response (1:23:04)  NBA Finals (1:29:17)  Kevin Durant traded (1:32:31)  McGrady compares career to Kobe’s (1:38:44)  Face of the Ringer (1:54:09)  Glaze of the Week Host: Van Lathan Jr. and Rachel Lindsay Guests: Rep. Ro Khanna and Akbar Shahid Ahmed Producer: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? How learning is on is I, Van Lathan Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. Oh, my fucking God. Where are you at? That forehead and all brought the forehead back out for y'all. You got yours out too.

I knew that you would, that you would draw attention to it. Because today's... Yours or mine? Yours, because today's one of those forehead days. My speaks out for itself. No. But, you know, you have days.

of forehead, then you have days of five head. It's not the same all the time. Sometimes I try to hide it. Like, I could hide it right now. You could? You know, like, there are ways I could wear my hair where it's four and a half. Oh.

It's less-ish. Yeah, yeah. I'll point it out next time I do it. See, if I have flipped my hair a little bit to the side, it wouldn't be as pronounced. But, like, we end this thing. Fascinating. So are there times where you go,

I'm serious? Are there times when you go, you're serious? Are there times when you're, you go too much forehead today. 100%. Wow. And to be very honest with you, I would have done my hair differently, but I just landed in Paris and was,

and it's crazy traffic here right now because it's men's fashion week. And I was like, I have to get to the podcast. I have to get here. So there was no time. There's no time to be cute. We got a lot going on. I just needed to be here. You know what I do that with?

And it doesn't even matter from when I was really fit to now. that's a titty thing with me. It's tits. Middies. Middies. Middies. It's a midi thing. Sometimes I wear something and I go, you know,

they're poking out a little bit. That's fine. You got to do it. And then other times the shirt doesn't have enough structure to it. And because what I have low hangers. See, I don't have the tities that pop out up here, the pointy ones. Oh, they're not perky. Okay.

Right. So I have, because up here is muscle. This is muscle. I only really have the tities at the bottom. bottom. And even when I was in great shape, it still wasn't a great shirtless era because I have the little bottom hangers right there. I never knew what to do about it. Okay. I'm going to call those Menoobes. Okay. We're into it. Middys are perky. Oh, yeah.

Menoobes got a little weight to them. Right? They stick out down low. I remember there was this guy at the gym and his name was Diego. I would always see Diego working out. Don't out, Diego. Now, Diego was a nice guy. He was one of those big swole niggas that played basketball. And you were always like one elbow away from having to go to urgent care.

So, you know, you know what I'm talking about. He could play, but he was strong as shit. Yeah, yeah. And I remember, this was at me, because there was a time where I did maybe like 400 pushups a day. Uh-huh. I would wake up. I would do three sets of 50 pushups. And then I would do three sets of 50 pushups at night.

And then I will find some other time in the day that, like, filling it. But no matter what happened, still there was a little bit at the bottom. It's very funny. I went to Diego one time and I went, you know, bro, you know, I'm having problems with the bottom of the tit area. Like, what should I do? This freaked him out so bad. I don't know why. I don't know if he was.

Offended? Not offended. He was a workout guy, but, and normally workout guys get really into this, telling you how to, but he had never had another grown man asked him about his titties before.

He had never had that. Well, maybe he didn't consider himself having them. No. And this is why I say offended. I wasn't asking him about his. I was asking him about his. I was asking how I correct mine. But why are you asking him?

Because he's swollen. But it makes it seem like, you know, you used to have him or you look like a guy who has him. You might know. I don't know. I could see him being a little bit like as somebody else. Nah. Kind of like if you walked up to somebody and was like, yo, what do you do for your forehead? And they're going to be like, why are you asking?

I've never considered this. When I went to him, because he was like, He was like, you know, why don't you do some, you know, cable pickups? I'll pick him up, uh, co-brough out of my face. I was like, what the fuck? He didn't say out of my face because me and Diego, but he was like, he was uncomfortable. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. If I ask you for forehead reduction tips, I'm probably asking you because you look like you know what you're doing. You look like you've been in my situation before and I see that you figured a way out. I never thought about this. I'm really good at this type of stuff normally, though, about like not crossing lines with people. That's what I'm here for. That normally people, people think that I'm... About not crossing lines with people is, Donnie, did you just hear that?

You cross the line here all the time. That's different, though. Abitually. That's different, though. This is a family setting. What I'm talking about is out in the world, if you meet people, they're going to go, hey, Van is such a nice guy. He's helped me out. You are.

And so, but like in here, I got to cross lines. I have to. You guys are my family. You got to get it out of your sister. I have to go from little brother to big brother. I'm a little big brother. I'm both a big brother and a little brother to my big sister. But like out in the world, people come to me. They talk to me.

They ask my advice and the whole nine. I'm very supportive with them. You're very disarming. Like I feel like I can easily see why people want to come up and talk to them. But not Diego. Because you love it did. Okay, I got to find Diego now, man. Diego, nice guy.

Listen, I got a lot of people messaging me asking me about you talking about me wanting, you wanting me to find a French man being out here while I was in Cannes at first, then I was in the Italy countryside and I just got to Paris today, Monday. It's Monday evening right here. It's 9 o'clock at night. A lot of people asking me that. A lot of people wanted to know about Willie. What about it?

They wanted to know, is everything okay? Is he still around? I never thought that Willie was like an exclusive thing to where, like, you guys weren't seeing other people. I didn't say it was or it wasn't. I didn't say it was or it wasn't. I didn't say anything like that. I'm just saying it was interesting that the people thought that.

The people were like, well, what happens? Is everything okay? And I was like, oh, wow, what have we been saying on the podcast? I thought it was high rate summer. Look, I found a guy that I wanted. For me? Yeah. Oh, we're not back here again.

We're not back here. He's an acrobat that I follow. He's French. No. I want you to find him. His name is, um... Is he black French? Yeah.

Because we came home. I know. See, so if it's French, if it's a black French guy, he's going to be an African, right? Am I wrong? He's going to be African guy. Well, most likely. That doesn't mean that that's necessarily the case. So this guy's name is Momo, aka Skywalker,

Momo underscore Acro. And he's, he flips. I've been following him for a long time, and he's French. He's out there in France. He flips around. I don't like that. You don't like the fact that he's an acrobat? Doesn't really interest me.

You wouldn't want somebody that could do flips? For what? Is he doing? Like, what's that going to do for me? You just around the house, I'm just watching you flip. That wouldn't be fucking awesome. This is a not for me. I don't need you out here just risking your life for fun.

Wait a minute. This entire time in my life, I thought, how awesome would it be able to be, how awesome would it be, should I say, for me to be able to do flips for my friends and family? like if I could do flip so you mean to tell me right now if I could do flips so if we were all hanging out and we had had a couple beers or whatever

and everybody's chilling and I just went y'all back hand spring to back somersault everybody wouldn't go yeah yeah yeah do it van do it y'all wouldn't be into that donnie am I tripping

wouldn't be able to I would be so into that but not for the reason I think you think I would want you to fuck up the flip And honestly, I'm rooting for chaos. So you want me to do the flip and then bust my knee. You brought up alcohol and doing flips. Naturally, it's like, all right, he's not going to pull.

I think this guy, Momo Akro is the coolest nigga in the world because of his ability to flip. Didn't say he wasn't cool. But like, after a while, what are you going to do? Flip while we're having conversations. Flip into a date. flip into like what are we doing here after a while the jig is up and it gets old like if you want to if you wanted to show me that you could do a backflip i'd be like go for a fan unlike donnie i wouldn't be rooting for you to film but after i've seen it i don't need to see anymore okay i just want to let you know this guy doesn't do a black a backflip okay that's not what he does he runs and vaults over like 10 people and then flips like four feet into the air and walks in the sky what has to be done to impress you women. You mean to tell me

what has to be done to impress you women? I didn't say it's not impressive. I bet if he had a money phone, you'd be into it. If he had the money phone, you like that type of shit, though.

You like that shit, don't you? No, I just, you do. I'm going to pass. I'm sure he's lovely. He's probably taken. What impresses Rachel? There's a lot that impresses me. I'm impressed by intellect.

I'm intense. impressed by talent. Oh, you don't think I like being around smart people? I know you like being around smart people,

but there's some people that I've talked to that maybe worth the sharpest and I was in a drug. Go ahead. I like, I like,

I like, I'm impressed by creativity. Okay. I'm impressed by, yeah, I am. I'm impressed by really good conversation.

Like, we could chill and do nothing and just talk to each other. I'm very impressed by that. Because that means I'll never get bored with you. Yeah, I'm impressed by Yeah, let's stop there.

Flipping. What if you were, we got Roe Kana coming on the show in a second. We have to talk, but I haven't had my sister on the podcast for a second, and she's out there. I have to say, you've been holding it down. I have to give you props. Thank you for holding it down for higher loan.

No problem. Have you been walking around in France with a baguette? Because the last time I was in France, I saw mad people walking around. You made his face. Yo, this is a thing for real. You're making fun of me, but...

No, not. At least 15% of the people in Paris, when I was in Paris, had a piece of bread when they were walking around on the streets of Paris. No bullshit. I'm not making it up. They did. They had a baguette. They had a piece of bread.

I just got here. On Thursday, I'll be able to tell you more. CT, have you ever been to Paris before? You've never been. Donnie, have you been to Paris? Nope. Ashley might have. Ashley probably has.

But I'm telling you, people were walking around and they had a piece of bread, right? And they would sit down. They would take the bread. They would fucking rip the bread. They would eat the bread. They would throw the bread to the... I swear! They would throw the bread to birds.

It's like 99 to 2000, whatever it was. People were eating a piece of bread. They had a piece of bread walking around in Paris with the bread. bread. I'm like, what the fuck is going on? It's true. Well, there's a lot of fresh bread is a thing. I'm not surprised by them. I'm not surprised. But you lost me when you said then you saw them breaking it apart, taking bites of it, throwing it to the... I promise you, the people in Paris were walking around and they had people walk around

with begets. Donnie, go on to put pictures under this of people in Paris with a begette's. Like put the Find the pictures where they're where they're taking a bite out of the bread and also throwing it to the birds. I want all of it. I saw people walk and then sit and then bust that bread open and then eat the bread. I saw people toss the bread to birds. The birds were there because they knew that bread was available. This happens in pairs.

Birds are everywhere. All right. A lot of news today, guys. It's going to be a show that starts off pretty. series and then gets into more not silly stuff, but cultural stuff at the end. Obviously, you guys have already heard now that

Iran responded, first of all, the U.S. attacked Iran. Three different attacks, three different nuclear sites, with 30,000 pound bunker busters. That was on Saturday. If you were listening to us now,

it's Tuesday. However, Monday, which is the day. We've gotten a word that the Iranians have responded with an attack of their own on a Qatari base, a U.S. base that's based in Qatar, should I say. It's not a Qatari base. It's a U.S. military base that is inside the borders of Qatar, Qatar, which is an ally of the United States of America. We have two guests on the show today. One is Congressman Rokaneh.

And there are a lot of things we want to know from Roe in terms of what he knows about the entire happenings in the Middle East, what Congress knows. But also, if Trump is acting as recklessly as people say that he is, then what are the Democrats going to do? Is there anything that the Democrats can do? We'll talk about this. And we'll talk about maybe some big picture stuff with Roe. And we have Akbar joining this again from Huff Post to really. Answer some of the questions that people have about the Iranian response and all of that stuff. You're in France right now.

How does it feel to be abroad when all of this stuff is happening? It's a little scary because I'm getting messages, of course, that are saying, like, there's already been, like, I'm staying with a couple of friends right now. And they're saying that their talks, their rumors about flights not being able to come in. there was a lot of noise at the airport when I landed in here today. There were people wearing Israeli flags, actually, when they were landing, coming into CDG today. It's just, it's weird being over here because obviously I'm closer to it than you, but also the concern of, you know, now it's being reported that they're putting L.A. and New York

and Washington, D.C. on high alert. obviously I'm here. I'm leaving. I'm supposed to go to L.A. I'm just wondering, is it going to be difficult for me to get back? What does it look like to be an American over here right now? I just got here.

I'm not sure. I had a friend walking down the street. Somebody threw water on her last night. Because she's American? I don't know, but could have been. Is she El Niglo? Is she El Niglo? No, white, blonde.

Oh. Maybe that's a lot. good for her. Maybe she should learn how it feels. One mega nights. That's obviously terrible. Have you checked in with the U.S. Embassy in France? No, I have not. Should I? Yeah.

You should do that. Really? Yeah. You should do that. You should check in with the embassy so that you get alerts on your phone so that you know whether or not... Do I have to go to the embassy to do that? I'm not sure. That's something that you might be able to do on the phone. That's something that you might be able to do on a call or something that you might be able to do online.

But you should definitely check in with the U.S. Embassy so that you can get information from the embassy about movements or other things or if something needs, you're an American citizen. Like you're abroad and there's something happening. I would check in with the embassy. I would. Okay. Yeah. I mean, good to know. And I'll tell you there's a lot of Americans here right now.

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My friend, my friend, my friend, how are you doing? It was great seeing you a couple months ago in New York, and I'm glad we're doing this. I am glad we're doing this, too. Of course, he represents California's 17th congressional district. He served as the Deputy Assistant Secretary in the United States Department of Commerce under President Barack Obama in 2009 to 2011. And 11, we're going to get right into the interview road because there's so much going on right now. I think people want some answers. First of all, thank you for joining us.

But have you been briefed on either the U.S. attacks on Iran on Saturday or the Iranian response today? I'm just curious. Have you been, as a member of Congress, have you been briefed on either one of those by now? We've had some briefings, but the main briefings will be tomorrow. So with that in mind, in your estimation, how successful were the U.S. attacks? There seems to be some inconsistency in the messaging. Was Iran's nuclear program attacks on three sites severely damaged or was it not? Because we're hearing two different stories coming out of Washington right now.

Well, we don't have the answers to that because the administration, themselves have been giving contradictory assessments. Just the afternoon, Vice President Vance said that the Iranians may still have enough nuclear fuel to create 10 nuclear bombs, that they may have removed that fuel from the Fordos site before it was attacked. At the same time, of course, Trump said those sites were completely obliterated. The military has said there was severe damage. We don't have any full assessment of how much damage was done there. But what we do know is this, that Iran has the know-how to build this nuclear bomb. They have the know-how on enrichment.

And my guess is that they still have some of the fuel. And so now they're going to get out of the NPT. They're going to throw out the IEAE inspectors. And they're going to say, look, we're going to go down the way of Pakistan and North Korea do this covertly. We had the way to stop them. President Obama showed the way to stop them with the JCPOA. They were under 5% in Richmond. Now they're at 60% under 5% under what he had achieved, and then Trump came and ripped it all up. You're expecting the big briefing on Tuesday. You shared with us that you have been briefed a little bit. What are you expecting?

This podcast will come out on Tuesday at this moment. What are you expecting to hear to learn? or maybe even what actions may be taking after that Tuesday briefing from Congress. Well, as you know, I'm leading with Massey, the War Powers Resolution, to prevent us from getting into a war in Iran. I want that to be passed. In fact, they're trying to play games. The Speaker today was trying to get a rule to prevent the War Powers Resolution from getting a vote. It's a privileged resolution.

That means it has to get a vote under traditional rules, and they're trying to prevent it from getting a vote. Fortunately, there weren't many Republicans right now willing to vote for that. But this is why you had Donald Trump, I don't know how much you followed it, threatening Massey today, basically saying that he's sending his top political team, all the money to take him out. It's not just out of vindictiveness.

He knows there are Republicans who want to get on this warpower's resolution. He knows there are Republicans who are concerned about an escalation in Iran. He knows one third of his days does not one. us to be sending more troops to the Middle East, more money into the Middle East to defend the Strait of Hormuz, which we need to do, and to get into further conflict with Iran. So the most important thing is for us to get a bone on this so we don't get into a further conflict with Iran. But then we need to know how much damage was done. What is salvageable in terms of getting back to the diplomacy table with Iran? Or have we just written Iran off now

and are they going to get out of the NPT? And what is the plan? Are we going to bomb them every year, two years, if they start to develop more nuclear weapons. So there are a lot of unanswered questions. I want to come back to you and Representative Massey's bipartisan effort there because I saw one of you guys, I saw you guys, both of you guys on one of the Sunday shows yesterday. And I thought it was very interesting to hear that you guys were such in lockstep with how you're viewing this. But before we get there, so there is one.

outlier here to me that is the wildcar here and that's the Israelis. We are talking about this as if this was a U.S.-led strike. This is actually the U.S. coming in after the Israelis already conducted

their strike. So even if the U.S. wants to negotiate with Iran to end its nuclear program, are we on the same page as the Israelis who seem to be dedicated to regime change in Iran.

Before you answer this, I want to play something for you. Lindsay Graham was on one of the Sunday shows yesterday, too. And he said something that was really interesting to me. Donnie, play the clip for Roe. So I talked to Beebe just a few minutes ago, and I said, what would you like me to say? He said, tell the American people, Israel is profoundly grateful for all we do for Israel.

and very grateful to President Trump for what he ordered last night. Two messages. He wanted me to urge the Iranian people to end this madness. Take this regime down and have a better life for yourselves and be part of the region in a new and different way. And second, he wanted me to tell the American people, Israel's not going to live this way anymore. They're not going to live under threat from Iran anymore.

Last night they were attacked, the early morning hours of today after the attack by President Trump, Israel fired ballistic missiles into Israel, wounding Israeli citizens. 24 have been killed. This regime is not going to be tolerated by Israel, is what he told me. Two things there. Number one, that is a sitting U.S. senator delivering messages to the American people on behalf of a foreign government. Number one, that's breathtaking to me. I mean, it is shocking. I mean, it, you know, it would be like if I said, let me tell you what the Indian prime minister thinks that America needs to be doing.

I mean, give me a break. We're the superpower around here. We're the ones who get to decide. And we're not going to be lectured or told what's in the American interest by a foreign power. That's one 50th our size in terms of our economy. Secondly, well said, secondly, you have. have, in my opinion, the Israelis with the clear goal of regime change. So even if we wanted to negotiate the end of the Iran nuclear regime, it seems like regime change

is the central binding force between the U.S. and Israel on this. Is anything short of that going to be tolerated by the Trump administration? That's the concern. I mean, the concern is that they want a, of law. war of regime change. Now, we know how these things happen. We've seen the story time and again. It almost makes you sick that we can't learn as a country. Do we go to these wars the day after we say mission accomplished, we got Saddam, we got al-Qaeda out, and then what happens for years, decades after the American people are left bearing the consequences. Because we don't know if

there's regime change, whether what comes after that is going to be more extreme. We don't know if it will become then a haven for terrorism. We don't know if it becomes a haven for attacks on our troops for an attack when closing the Strait of Hormuz. We don't know if it's going to require more American treasure, more American lives than in the Middle East, when we should be spending that money on building jobs here at home and taking care of our people here at home.

It's like we keep making the same mistake. We keep voting. We keep voting for a president to keep us out of these wars, and then they get talked into it by people like, Lindsey Graham. You know, here's what I gave an analogy. It'd be like if you had a buddy in high school who was not nearly as strong as you were. And the buddy says, you know, I'm going to pick a fight with someone who's really been annoying me. And he said, please don't pick that fight. I don't have the I want to try to talk things out with him. The buddy says, no, no, I want to pick a fight.

You said, please, no, I'm trying to negotiate something. Go pick a fight. The buddy goes, then he hits the guy. He says, all right, I pick the fight. I can't take him on myself. Now you've got to fight for me because I need you. You know, that's exactly what's happened in the situation with Israel. They basically didn't listen to Donald Trump in wanting to negotiate. They go and punch Iran knowing full well they can't take out their nuclear facilities, knowing full well they can't do this war on their own. And then they come begging to the United States to finish up the dirty work for them and putting us at risk. It is ridiculous. us.

Something that you said when you talked about us being a part of the JCPOA and Iran had 5% uranium now that it's reported around 60%. And when Trump pulled out during his first term, and now we see that it's gone from 5% to 60%, do you think that this was always a part of something that Trump wanted to do to be at odds with Iran or use what's happening as a reason to have an issue with Iran. Do you feel like that this was inevitable? No, I don't know. I think he just got terrible advice and he's been all over the place.

I mean, look, I think he got out of the Iran deal because Obama got into the Iran deal. And, you know, he ran saying Obama wasn't born in America. Everything against Obama was his basic rationale for his campaign. And he got in there and he wanted to undo everything Obama did, whether it was the Affordable Care Act or whether, was the policy in Iran. And the reality was it's in the United States interest to deny Iran a bomb, and Barack Obama figured out how to do it, and the Republicans couldn't live with that. Yahoo couldn't live with that. So they got out of this, and they thought they had a better strategy.

Well, that strategy that they had led to 60% enrichment. It obviously didn't work. So then Trump said, okay, now I get, I'm getting religion. I'm going to negotiate it. And people like me, who watched him undermine Obama's efforts, who watched him, parnished President Obama, said, okay, Donald Trump, we will support you. I'm glad you found religion on this issue. We're going to support you to negotiate. And then what happens? Netanyahu realizes he's going to negotiate,

and so he preempts that by going and attacking Iran to put Donald Trump in this position where he can basically push Trump to get into this war. Now, I still thought Trump wouldn't do it, because I thought a third of his base is going to oppose it. Tucker Carlson's at explicitly the end of his presidency and maybe hyperbole, but he's losing a lot of people on this, but he was just talked into this by the Washington Beltlet, by people like Lindsey Graham. You know, I can't believe the people who are on CNN and MSNBC.

Like, this should be a rule. If you chairweds for the war in Iraq, people like Breck McGurk, If you undermine the JCPO of President Obama, how about you stop opining on foreign policy? Or how about every time you have an opinion on foreign policy, you're asked, why do you get it so disastrously wrong on Iraq? I mean, it's the same group of people and the American people are sick of it. There's an argument happening online right now about when and where the president should authorize strikes without Congress. Congress. Obviously, Trump did this, and AOC was very upset and everyone was very upset that this should have been brought to Congress. This is kind of what you and Rep. Massey are talking about with the War Powers Act. There have been some that have pointed out that Obama, Clinton, Biden, they all authorize strikes without Congress for different reasons. Now, some of those were intervening in conflict. Some of those were on behalf of the UN. Some of those were retaliatory strikes based upon U.S. forces being hit around the globe. What is the different? if there is a difference between what Trump did on Saturday and what those past presidents did.

You know, look, I think President Obama is the greatest modern president. I've worked for him and I have deep admiration for him. But I'll tell you what, his strikes in Libya were unconstitutional and they were wrong. I mean, he basically struck Gaddafi without any congressional authorization. Congress subsequently disapproved of those. And so the criticism that Congress has abdicated its role and that there have been strikes by other presidents that have been unconstitutional is correct. And instead of, in my view, just personalizing it to Trump, because these are unconstitutional strikes, I think we need to reclaim Congress's power. What Biden did, what others have done in Yemen with strikes without congressional approval has also been wrong or refueling.

of Saudi planes or striking their ships. The president can do it if it's imminent self-defense. If there was someone who's going to launch a missile against American troops, they can't just go, they say, well, it's only air strikes. And then this argument, well, it's not war. First of all, every headline in the United States said, America goes to war in Iran. Secondly, if you're Iranian and you've got a country coming over you with B2 bombers

and pouring down 30,000-pound bombs, I think you think we're at war. I mean, this myth that because we don't have soldiers on the ground that we're not at war is just wrong. And I rather that, you know, we call it bolds and strikes and we said that the president needs to be checked. The presidential power needs to be checked by Congress. And we need to call out all actions that were unconstitutional. So what will it take to do that? Because as Vanda's pointing out, we're seeing everyone say, well, this president did it.

well, and this president did it, so why can't, you know, I do it? So what's the, how, what's, how likely is it that President Trump is going to do something like this again? And if, and if Congress does try to take the power back, what does that look like? How can he be stopped? You know what the dirty secret is, I think, is that Congress doesn't want to vote on these things. There's so many people that lost their career when they voted for the war in Iraq that they're perfectly fine, hunting this. Look at some of the statements from some of the Democratic leaders on, on this. we need to look at this carefully.

We need to look at whether the strikes were constantly to yourself. How about just having an opinion? You know, the strikes were bad, the strikes for good. At least Lindsey Graham has an opinion. Most people, he's a wrong opinion, but most people who are in Congress, they don't want to be tackling these issues. Because when you do something like Massey or me, when you come out there and you say, I was opposed to this, you get a lot of people who are upset at you.

But you know what, that's why you go to Congress, to vote on these things, to take a stand. And so what I think it's going to take is the American people, both on the Republican and Democratic side, demanding Congress have votes on war and peace, demanding that their members of Congress actually take a stand against getting us in these overseas wars and be willing to throw members of Congress out either through primary challenges or through elections if they're not willing to stand up for that. But I do think the American people keep throwing people out there. The anti-war candidate usually wins. But then they're friends. frustrated that we've got this kind of foreign policy group in Washington that talks people into these wars. You being very generous to time. We're going to get you out of here. But when I ask you a couple of more questions, pivoting off of Iran right now and just getting more to the Democrats themselves. I saw both Bill Clinton and Rep. Clyburn endorsed Andrew Cuomo over Zoran Mandani in New York.

And it was very disappointing to me. It seems like the old guard of the party still doesn't get it. And they're trying to Bernie, Mom Donnie, who's been able to build a grassroots movement in New York against a guy, two guys, really, if you're talking about Adams and Cuomo, who have all kinds of stinky garbage baggage. yet Clinton and Clyburn both seemed to reinforce the old guard, the good old boys of the Democrats. And I'm wondering, is there ever going to be anything that makes the Democratic Party take a step back and look at what people are responding to in some of these politicians or political figures that offer a different message from the one that we've been getting for the last 30 or 30. years. I was very, very disappointed to see that a fresh young face is kind of having his

legs cut out from under him by the same party establishment that silence Bernie. Or don't make it about Bernie. Make it about anything that comes from the progressive left. They seem to be against it. Were your thoughts on that? When I first ran for Congress in 2003, I ran the nation's first anti-Iraith war primary against a incumbent Tom Lantos, who had voted for the war in Iraq. and I had Bill Clinton endorsed against me doing Ronald Paul's Nancy Pelosi endorsed against me. Both of the senators endorsed against me. Every member of Congress endorsed against me.

When I walked into a Democratic Party, they'd walk away, saying how the dear this young guy take on an incumbent on the Iraq war. I lost a campaign 71 to 19 percent, but I saw the establishment mobilized. Then when I ran against the incumbent the second time, I had all the same people, endorse against me. This time they knew me a little better because I was in the Obama administration. But that's just how the game works. Well, you know that. We all have to endorse against

you. The president, the vice president, the senators. And that's unhealthy. It's unhealthy. I doubt to myself, if I ever got to Congress, I would not just default to endorsing the people who I knew or were friends or relationships that I had. But here's the good news. You know, yeah, I got 19%. But since then, a lot of people like, A.m. and Jamal Bowman initially and other challenges have won across this country. Bernie Sanders almost became the nominee. I had no doubt in my mind if Bernie Sanders could run in 2020, he'd win the nomination and the presidency.

So, Mamdani may still win despite everything. So every year we're making progress. Every year we're getting new voices there. And the reason I say this is what they won is for us to quit. what they want it's you know it's sort of uh nelson mandela's quote it always seems impossible until it's done they know we're close and they're hoping we quit now what we got to do is if we if we win great if we don't we keep going because ultimately the people are on our side and I do

believe whether it's going to happen now what this happened in 28 30 30 32 36 I don't know I'm not a I can't predict the future but I do know it's going to happen and I and I as long as we don't play that we keep going I want to talk about the Democrats. I want to talk about the resolution that you're that you're working on with, Representative Massey. How are you going to? I know it's something that you talked about on Tuesday or when you have your briefing on Tuesday that you want to push forward and gather everyone around that to move that forward. How do you get the Democrats on the same page when it comes to that?

Because I know that the Democrats are at odds. The L.A. Times had an article about this over the response. to Trump's decision and what he did with the three strikes that bombing that he did in Iran. When you have senators like John Federman coming out and praising what Donald Trump did, how do you bring Democrats together and also try to bring in Republicans

to move your resolution forward? Yeah, my concern is not on John Fenerman. John Peterman obviously made his views clear, which I disagree with on his support for the bombing in Gaza. and unconditional support on Netanyahu. My concern is that he should be the outlier, that our leadership should clearly be saying that we want to be the party against war. We want to be the party for peace abroad.

That the vast majority of Democrats, this should be a 90-10 issue or an 80-20 issue, so that the identity of the Democratic Party is against the war. I mean, we're spending all this money on, you know, how do you win young men $20 million for some random? studies that I'm sure are going to be wholly meaningless. I was just on Theovani. He was talking about a lot of young men who voted for Donald Trump. One of the things they didn't want is war. How about we just become the party that's not going to be for these wars?

We'll probably win back some of these young men and don't need these fancy studies. And yet in the one issue, the one issue that has divided the mega base since the election, it's the one issue. You got Steve Bannon railing against. He got Tucker Carlson railing. against, you got Marjorie Taylor Green rolling against it. The Democrats can't get our act together to say, yeah, let's be the party that's opposed to wars and we can get a third of the mega base. It's not just substantively wrong. It's political malpractice. It's why I've come closest now to saying we just need a new generation of people in there. I mean, this is not a party that's seen as strong. It's strong doesn't mean we want to go bomb people. Strong doesn't mean that you got to go like,

someone was like, oh, yeah, we got to, this person would be good for young men because they work out every day and bench press. That's not what strength means. Gandhi was really strong. He didn't bench press. King was really strong. He didn't bench press. Strength me the strength of conviction. That's what this party is missing. Yeah. I mean, you don't know if Dr. King was in there. Yeah. He might have been. You know what I mean? You never know. I would love to have you on again to talk about the Theo Vons and Joe Rogans of the world and all of that stuff. And just it's very fascinating to me. You know, Rogan and Theo Vaughan. they're getting all this new information and they can't believe it.

They can't believe that this is happening and they can't believe that that is happening and they can't believe that we've gone down this road. And Joe Rogan can't believe that Donald Trump is going to home depots and taking people away from their jobs when Donald Trump said that he was going to deport 10 million people, he was going to have to go to some home depots. He was going to have to go to some people's houses. That was going to have to happen. There aren't 10 million undocumented criminals in America.

this, oh, other than real odds, it's kind of, it's baffling to me. But I have one question for you. It's kind of a big picture question. I'm assuming as a U.S. congressman that you want the U.S. to be the major power and influencer in the world,

that you want us to have the influence and power in the Middle East and other places like that, that you want the U.S. way, the American way, to be something that is strong worldwide. You want that competition between us and China and Russia to go our way.

I'm assuming that. I know that why that's good for us. I know why power and influence is good for us. What does the world get out of it? I think when we're talking, go for it. It depends how that power is exercise. You know, we've played a constructive role at times of the world, of course, not just winning World War II and defeating tyranny and fascism, not just defeating communism,

but leading the decolonization movement in the world, right? I mean, my grandfather, I'm not the Dilan Kirt, spent four years in jail as part of Gandhi's independence movement. The British weren't going to do anything to give India freedom. It was FDR, who said to Churchill after World War II, you can't keep these colonies that led to Indian independence. Kennedy pushed for decolonization. So I guess the question is, okay, we have power. Are we going to use that power to stand up, not just for freedom in the United States,

but for the self-determination of people, for human rights, for peace? Or are we going to use the power to conquer other lands and violate other people's rights, the way authoritarian countries like China or Russia have done? my belief, my deep belief in this country, the most inspiring speech, I think, in American history that should be actually taught like Lincoln's at Gettysburg Address or the second inaugural is Frederick Douglass is a composite nation in 1869. Frederick Douglass was enslaved for almost 20 years. He becomes a free man, and one of his first defenses is of Chinese immigration.

And he says people from China can come to the United States and all of the traditions that aren't so great, they'll fall away in the free era of America, and the best traditions will become part of American, will become a nation of all nations, a composite nation, a beautiful, multiracial democracy. And if we did that, if we do become a cohesive multiracial democracy, then I think our power also will be exercised justly because we would have the narratives and understandings of people around the world and how they see us. That's the whole. It's not just to be the most powerful, it's to then exercise that power in a just way. Last question for me.

I want to ask quickly. Right before we hopped on this podcast, we found out that Iran had struck the U.S. base bases or base in Qatar. I think what people want to know is, is it too late? Is war inevitable at this point? It's never too late. You know, I was talking to a spiritual leader yesterday. I'm of Hindu faith. He said, you know, ultimately war is easy to start.

it's hard to stop. And any leader he meets, he says, what are you doing to stop war? We can always stop war. And right now, there is a choice. Are we going to continue to escalate or are we going to stop? Are we going to try to de-escalate the situation? Obviously, we have to protect our troops, but there are choices we can make to continue to escalate this or de-escalate this. I believe with all my heart that the more members of Congress who speak out for a warpower's resolution to say, stop this war, the better chances we have not making a blunder in getting into another war in Iran, something that, you know, our kids are going to have to deal with. It's something that generations are going to have to deal with. That's Congressman Rokana. You're hearing from

them right now on the higher learning podcast. You'll probably be hearing a lot more from them in the lead up to 2028. He won't say that. I'll say it. Um, You're everywhere right now. Don't take any money from Elon Musk. I'm going to tell you that. I am not. They got to be misquoted. I probably could have spoken precisely.

All I said about Musk, I've never taken a dollar from the guy. Nor would I take a dollar from the guy. Nor do I want him to be spending any money on behalf of Democrats. I just said if he could stop skewing acts so that all of the anger is directed at people like our vice president Harris, which hurt our campaign. And if you could start to un-unreasoning. that so that some of the anger can be directed at Trump and the Republican, maybe it would be helpful. But that, that's all I said.

All right. Let me, let me just add on to that real quick. Real quick. I'm going to speak as a black guy. Yeah. We're all people of color on here. Do you know sometimes what we want? Yeah.

Sometimes what we want is I have no problem with people changing. No problem with people changing their stance, right? No problem with that in all. And I think that what I liked about seeing you and rep. on, was that Face the Nation to Meet the Press, wherever you guys were, is when I saw that, I saw, here are two people from opposing sides of the aisle who realize that there's a through line between the way that they look at the world, and they're working on behalf of Americans and not behalf of themselves and not behalf of the party.

They're saying, this is the best thing for America. So let's put this first. I love seeing that. I love seeing that type of deal. But when you're looking at people having these come to Jesus moments in politics, or people having these come to Jesus moments in political thought, I want to see the fire. I want to see the rehabilitation point.

If Elon Musk or anybody else that was basically Nazi adjacent would decide right now that they want to become a force on the other side, I would want to know that I didn't have to worry about arming somebody with such a cultural way. that could then turn around and use that weapon against me in four or six months. See, when a brother does something wrong or a sister does something wrong, our rehabilitation has to be shown in front of the world. We got to do all of it in front of everyone and let everybody know that we are not dangerous and we don't mean nobody, no harm.

You know what I mean? But Joe Rogan or some of these other guys get to go, hey, got that wrong, guys, I'm on your side now. And everybody goes, oh my God, how great they're with us now. And I just don't buy it. I think it's a really fair point. I do think there has to be some not just introspection, but public remorse, public accountability before giving a second chance.

And I think, look, you know obviously black history much more than I do. But I think one point that you probably can make is there's no community in this country, more forgiving for second chances of the black community. given the experience. But it's also probably one which has its eyes open more than the rest of us because they've seen people claim to be redeemed and then disappointed them. And so I think there's both a hard edge pragmatism about is this person really changed and a true willingness to forgive and move on that they have to see it. And I think that that's an excellent point. And one, probably I can take to heart in how talking about Elon, but yeah, fine. If we wanted

on your Twitter or do things. First, we've got to see some public accountability before saying, okay, let's see how we oppose Trump. Yeah. Hey, Roe, please and delighted to have you on. We will check back in with you. You are welcome to come on higher learning at any point. Thank you for joining us on higher learning today, Ro. Thank you. Appreciate it. Really enjoyed it. Thank you. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business, Fast, Reliable, Internet. means everything for your business and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business.

So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Everyone knows Winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need weather. tech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping, then you'd want a cargo liner or road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech. dot com today. Okay, um, you guys just heard from Congressman Rokana, but we have to check back

in with our guy in the region. Akbar Shahid Ahmed, who is of course, a senior political analyst for Huffpo, reporter. He's been keeping us really informed on the happenings in the region. Thank you for joining us on higher learning. My mind is flooded with questions to ask you right because I was going to ask you when we first booked you about what you thought the Iranian response would be to the bombing that took place on Saturday. Now we have an answer to that question. They have seemingly hit, and I say seemingly because there is a lot of conversation, a disagreement over the intentions of this strike. but they have struck a U.S. base in Qatar,

and people are talking about what this means. Does this mean all out war, or does this mean that the Iranians are actually backing down because there are reports that they tip the Qatari's off to this strike, and it's more symbolic than it is anything else? That's a lot of words. I'm asking you, what does the Iranians? Iranian respond to me.

Sure. So thanks for having me back, Van Rachel. I've been to this base. This is a giant base. It's actually the biggest American military base in the Middle East. It's home to thousands of troops, including many Qatari troops, right? So I've spoken with Qatari officials. What we know about the attack is that Iran gave enough of a warning ahead of time that the

base could be evacuated. That means that was a significant warning, right? We're not talking about a tiny base that you can evacuate in 30 minutes. That means there was a few hours before. And the fact that the Iranians have chosen to retaliate in Qatar rather than retaliate in some of the more unstable contexts where they could have done so, U.S. bases in Iraq, in Syria, these kind of more fragile countries, I think that really underscores that Iran is seeking to de-escalate and send a message of, you attacked us as the U.S. on Saturday.

day. We've attacked you back because we had to for our own face-saving our own regime, but let's call it a day, right? And the fact that there have not been any casualties, this is a really good example of mirroring in international relations where people will say, we're not trying to go further than what you did, but you struck a sensitive facility. The US hit three Iranian nuclear facilities. We're hitting a very sensitive facility for you, but there's no bloodshed. So that's where we are today. what you're saying sounds very logical, but I feel like when we're dealing with President Trump, that is thrown out the window. So I understand the way you're describing it.

Totally understand it. And it makes sense. And you talk about the symbolism of it. But from your expertise, is that how you think it will be perceived from the American government? Because so far what we're seeing is not the way that Van laid out the question and the way that you answered it. It's they attacked a U.S. base and the largest one out there. Do you think that Trump in the way that he seems to respond to things, right? There's a question I was going to ask you when he struck the nuclear sides.

Was there a perceived threat versus an actual one? To me, it seems as if he wants to puff his chest out and to show he is willing to respond. So how do you think the U.S. will respond to the attack at the U.S. base? You're absolutely right that President Trump is extremely unpredictable, volatile, right, and surrounded by advisors who are very unwilling to criticize or question him. I think that's what really worries a lot of people in this moment. It's not the kind of team of rivals, team of empowered cabinet that, say, President Barack Obama had, right? That said, there are voices from within Trump's own movement. Steve Bannon has been one of them. I was at breakfast with him last week where Steve Bannon, the right-wing commentator and former White House official. He's really been pushing the charge. Tucker Carlson, former Fox News personality. These people have been saying Trump, for your own movement's sake, don't get into a war.

But there is always that instinct with Trump to be the biggest bully in the room, to be the loudest voice, to demonstrate strength, masculinity, these kind of dynamics he's obsessed with. So we don't know. I think a lot will depend on those conversations in the Oval Office. One person I would really highlight for folks is the top U.S. military commander in the Middle East, Eric Corrilla. He's been a kind of really hawkish military first voice. He's been close to Trump and I think has been influential. And then there's the other factor of the unpredictability of Israel in this moment.

So Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who for many years has sought to bring the U.S. into a war with Iran, launched this war earlier this month, without providing evidence. that he needed to do so right now. This gets to your question about imminent threat or not. Netanyahu started his war against Iran he'd been promising and even got his win of getting the U.S. into that war. Is this enough for Netanyahu to back down? Can he wind down or will he escalate now?

That's another kind of unknown wild card right now. So we seem to have seen the Iranian response from a military perspective. Still there is the economic response. We talked a little bit about the straight of her moves the last time you were here about what closing that would mean for the world economy, particularly for oil prices.

It seems like President Trump is very, very nervous that that will happen because he has been freaking out on truth social about oil prices, about drill baby drill, and reportedly behind the scenes begging the Chinese to compel the Iranians not to close the strait of Hormuz. It was also reported that the Iranian parliament voted to do just that.

Where do we stand on that right now? Will we wake up next week or the week after to $10 gas? The dynamic I was talking about inside Iran where they did this calibrated response, they had to do a phase-saving response. That echoes their past behavior. But something I've really been struck by in the last couple of days talking to Iranian sources is what you were talking about with the parliament and the Strait of Hormuz. Because of the sense within Iran, of two things.

One, Israel has now been pummeling them for over a week. Civilian neighborhoods have been hit. There's just mass chaos and uncertainty, right? At one point, President Trump told the entire city of Tehran 10 million people to evacuate. So there's just such anxiety in the country. And there's the sense that they had calibrated responses to the U.S. in the past. and maybe that left them vulnerable to this kind of escalation now.

So those two dynamics are where I think that Strait of Hormuz question becomes really salient because if there's a strong enough groundswell among Iranian officials but also the Iranian public and what I was struck by is not these are not necessarily people who love the regime,

people who are a little more moderate, a little more pro-diplomacy but feel they have to strengthen their hand, do they feel the only leverage they have right now is choking off that? that's trade, pushing up gas prices, creating havoc in the world economy because their military capabilities are not going to last forever. Iran has been striking back at Israeli targets as well in addition to the strike on the U.S. But they know that there's massive, sophisticated interceptors.

Economic tools are a tool they haven't yet used. And it's something I think they're holding back to see if Trump goes into a kind of diplomatic off-ramp. Is that their left? French. One follow up there. If they were to do that, it would ostensibly affect them economically and then the Chinese as well, right? Because they're not exporting their oil. They're not making any money off of it. And the Chinese depend on them for oil. So the Chinese are also going to suffer from that. Is that even a viable option for them? How would the Chinese get their oil? Do the Iranians, are they willing to emiserate themselves and their people in order to prove a point to the United States? From their perspective, they wouldn't see it as emiserating, right?

They would see it as the only way to ensure survival. Iranians feel really aware of the recent track record in the Middle East, where you've had the U.S. invade Iraq, bleed to chaos, rise of ISIS, you've had an intervention in Libya, you've had a really brutal civil war in Syria. Iranians have looked at all these contexts and I think feel they're at a make or break moment. And this is where the U.S. and the international community and China and Russia, to an extent, because they've been interested in this nuclear issue as well and supported of diplomacy, they have to get Iran out of a stage of thinking, this is a battle for your survival of the regime and of your country and of literally your livelihoods

and your lives and get it back to, I'll be talking about Iran's nuclear program, which is what this whole situation was supposed to be about before we got into a war where now we're talking about regime change. So yes, I think from the Iranian perspective, while China, Korea, Japan, you know, and not just them, gas exports also go through the street of hormones and everyone needs that gas. Europe needs that gas. So what does that do to their international relationships, but they could take the pain? So the prime minister went to go speak with Putin. What can you tell us about that? Do we, is he looking for help in any kind of way? And what? type of help may he be looking for when it comes to, you know, assisting Iran? I don't think it'll be military help. Russia is, of course, very embroiled in Ukraine, really sees that as their focus. And they've been using Iranian military equipment in Ukraine. But I think they know that President Putin is someone President Trump consistently respects, right?

So when we think about unpredictability with Trump, his love for Putin is one of the most predictable things about him. It's been there always. So if you're the Iranians, you're trying any channel to get through the Trump. And this gets to a dynamic for them of how do we talk to the US without the whole situation being shaped by Israel? Right. They really want to have a nuclear negotiation and a kind of diffusing of tensions. They know that's not going to happen with Netanyahu, whose long sought regime changed in Iran. How did they create a channel with the US?

And that was really disrupted by Israel launching this war earlier. this man. Why in the fuck would the Russians need Iranian military equipment? It's very good. Russia, you know, Iranian drones, it's brutal. Drones. Oh, yeah,

the drones I did hear about, but they're not like using Iranian tanks and, yeah, okay, yeah, the drones I had heard about, I'm like, wow, are the Russians down bad? I mean, I'm not to, you got scared. The Iranian, no, no, no, I'm saying that that's very interesting.

I know that the Iranians have like really sophisticated awesome drone technology because that's, you know, with the region that they're in, that's one of the primary ways that they're able to strike. Wow. Okay. So I want to ask you, I want to wait into the waters of conspiracy theory. I did read a report that the Americans actually tipped the Iranians off to the fact that this attack on Saturday was coming. They said, hey, we're going to hit three of these sites. Let the Iranians know. then to move their nuclear capability out of those sites,

which a lot of reports are coming out that they did do that, in order for all of this saber-rattling to actually be more propaganda than military action, do you see any reason that that's actually the case? Is there any truth to that whatsoever? There's a track record of the U.S. using back-channel roots with Iran to, as you say, stage attacks, right? It's really, you're seeing this as theatrical, where the U.S. has, even under President Joe Biden, often said to the Iranians, we're going to do this. Let's limit the casualties.

And yes, I think it's indisputable at this point that the Iranians did move out their stockpile of enriched uranium, which means the nuclear question is very much still open, not resolved by this conflict. And we know that this administration, the Trump administration, did not come in. talking about being an administration going to war. So I think there's been a lot of parallels to 2003, the Bush administration, and the cheerleaders for war certainly lots of echoes. But I do think if the Trump administration goes into war, it'll be a stumbling out of a poor planning, a lack of strategy, a lack of calculation. And that's my the point about this theatrics, you know, while it's, well, yes, it's, it's not

killing people right now. it's hugely expensive, hugely disruptive, and finally, it's just so dangerous. I mean, the risk that one errand strike kills people, hits a civilian airliner, hits a ship, and then you're off to the races, and you can't stop because there's so much bloodshed. And we've seen that happen previously. I mean, a U.S. warship hit an Iranian civilian airliner in the 80s. Huge crisis, you know, so that's the risk. But what's the benefit of doing all of that?

What's the benefit of the theatrics? Like who wins in that? Everyone looks tough. You know, it's so much about this kind of really expensive signaling. I mean, these are hundreds of millions of dollars that you are spending. The U.S. is spending, but also Iran, an economy under sanctions where there's been a dramatic fallen living standards. So both countries are not serving that people from that point of view.

It's like it's almost like full wag the dog territory here, if in fact, any of this is really true. Now I want to ask a couple of bigger questions. If there was regime change, which it doesn't seem like the Israelis are taking their foot off the gas when it comes to regime change. We played a clip from Lindsey Graham where he was talking yesterday where he was speaking on behalf of Benjamin Nanyahu breathtaking. And he was talking about how evil the regime is and how Israel will not live next to the regime. So it doesn't seem like he's given up on his goal of regime change. Would that be possible without the Americans occupying Iran? If you were going to change the regime, you can't do it through airstrikes.

Israel doesn't have the military to go in and put boots on the ground and secure the country. We would have to send American troops into Iran to facilitate that regime change. And then we don't even know a regime we would be changing to. Am I wrong about that? I mean, Israel has not secured regime change in Gaza, which is the size of New Jersey, over almost two years, right? And that, I think, tells you a lot about just going into a deeply rooted community and assuming that you will be treated as liberators, the folly of that has been proven time and again. I think the narrative of regime change that someone like Lindsey Graham or Netanyahu is pushing, is designed from a PR standpoint to be a little more rosy than that.

So they don't want to say, you know, this is going to be post-Saddam, Iraq, tens of thousands of U.S. troops. They say, well, actually, we're empowering the Iranian people. Certainly millions of Iranians, whether they are people who hate the regime, people who are women and they're oppressed because of that, people who are oppressed for just having to send any political views. Many Iranians dislike the regime. But the sense that Lindsay Graham and Netanyahu are going to be the vehicle for them to take up arms and pull it down, I think is really, really risky. It's a huge gamble. And then to your point about what comes next, this is a regime that has been in power for now 50 years, almost. They're deeply entrenched.

Their military is very strong. Their religious conviction is very strong. Iran and Israel, really interesting parallels in those ways, the ways religion connect to kind of the national, modern state identity, they're not going out without a fight, and they're certainly not letting go of their strategic assets, uranium, they're not letting go of their religious shrines. So I think what you really are risking then is a civil war. But important to remember, Iran, 90 million people, just about half of them are ethnically Persian. There are a lot of ethnic minorities in Iran, some of whom, you know, Israel and pro-regime change voices have been encouraging

to take up arms, the Kurds, the Belouch. But again, what does that do in a country other than rip it to shreds and create real uncertainty with knock on effects that could be hugely dangerous? Because that uranium, again, is not going away, that radion military and the sense, I'd also link it to the regional picture. So the supporters of Iran's regime across the region in Yemen, in Lebanon, in Iraq, in Syria, they're not gone either. And that kind of sense of we'll have to exact vengeance against Israel and the U.S. for doing this to our patron, not just a financial patron, but a symbolic patron. The narrative of this axis has been, we are the lost bulwark against Western domination of our region. So if suddenly the center of

that goes away, that creates a really deep-seated anger and resentment. So I've mentioned this earlier, but how much of this is a perceived threat versus an actual one? So because Donald Trump abandoned the 2015 nuclear deal, Iran did absolutely go and enrich its uranium well beyond what it had said it previously would do. And it has come closer to the ability to build a bomb. So yes, there's a threat of Iran deciding it has to build a nuclear weapon, which for the US and Israel is a red line. And even for some regional countries like Saudi Arabia, is a red line. Those countries also feel if Iran gets a bomb, then we're going to build nuclear weapons.

And then you kind of have this really dangerous situation again in the Middle East developing. Important to remember in this that Israel has nuclear weapons fan. And I talked about that last time. Very rarely gets mentioned somehow. A secret nuclear weapons program, by the way. Not in... Yes, I mean, secret from the standpoint that

if you ask them, if you have... If you ask an Israeli official how many nuclear weapons they have, they go, what? Huh? I don't know. You know what? And is not a signatory, importantly, to the nuclear nonproliferation treaty, right? Which means that they don't see it as their responsibility to not prevent the spread of nuclear weapons. Iran has signed that treaty and remained in it.

So, yeah, is there a threat to Israel? Sure. Yes, Iran has targeted. Iran did help arm Hamas prior to the October 7th attack, which was devastating. Iran did help on his bullet on Israel's border. But was this, did this crisis have to happen right now? Did hundreds of people have to be killed in Iran, dozens of people in Israel, and us be here in this really volatile place?

I think it's really, no, absolutely not. So, just my mind. Okay. I got so many questions. Number one, Iran is a Shia nation, is it not? Primarily. Primarily. Is there a chance that the United States props up a Sunni majority to rest control and realign Iran with the major powers in the region?

There are Sunni groups in Iran with whom Israel and other critics of the regime have talked about developing. relationships. So Kurds, Belhoj, some Arabs. But the, A, the longstanding oppression of those groups, they're not empowered to step into power right now. They're pretty far off from it. And B, I don't think the U.S. government under Donald Trump has the capacity to develop a whole new regime for a country of 90 million people. Israel, too, again, has struggled to do that with Gaza, two million people. It seems like a really big ask. There are people who would love to do that. Not that they got that. Second question in that entire deal is, okay, so a lot of people are concerned about war in that region,

but then there are other people who are concerned about New York being on high alert, L.A. being on high alert, and the prospect of terrorism here. I've already heard, already heard some of the Trump officials by Nyes, their response to the potential of a terrorist attack, saying, hey, just let you know, yeah, that could happen because we have no idea how many people we let in the country under the Biden administration. So we're telling you right now that we're not safe from that.

And also, we appointed a fast food clerk to be in head, to head up the terrorism or the anti-terrorism apparatus of the United States of America. It seems to me, though, that if the Iranians aren't willing to directly hit the United States in Qatar, then executing a terrorist attack in New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, or Miami, where Americans would be killed in a really major way, would seemingly be off the table. How much coordination would there be from, when they say state-sponsored terrorism, are they saying that there are people who are sympathetic to the Iranian cause that are in terrorist organizations everywhere in Hezbollah, in Hamas, in the Houthis, or are they saying that

Iran directly goes, hit now, hit here, hit there? So I guess I'm saying how real is the terrorism threat from a country that doesn't even seem to be willing to actually and full-throatily attack American interests in that region? We have to see this talk from the Trump administration of a terror threat. in the context of it seeking to centralize power, defy judges, defy accountability, and have the ability to really control American society in an unprecedented way. We have to see it through that context and through the context of villainizing foreigners. Because this alert they've sent out has specifically said thousands of Iranian nationals are just roaming around the country, which is just that they haven't provided any evidence of that. A, and B, what we know from what

when there have been terror attacks, often it's U.S. born people, or it's right-being terror from U.S. born people. So let's just be quite clear about what a terror threat is. All that said, Iran, U.S. and European intelligence do know that Iran does have probably sleeper cells in the U.S. and Europe, and also Latin America, importantly. So there is instability and danger that could be triggered. I think the risk, the likelihood of that, as you say, the regime doesn't have a record of doing that, certainly not when it's on the cusp of trying to de-escalate. If the regime were going for an all-out, how do we destabilize the US,

we're just in this confrontation contest with them. But they didn't choose to spark this moment. If they had, I think that would have been all sorts of strategic sophisticated plans, but I don't think we're at that place right now. Should people in New York, LA be at high alert, be an alert of the federal government using this moment to solidify what some academics call, you know, the imperial presidency abroad because you just spoke with Congressman Kana,

Congress has surrendered so much power on foreign policy to presidents, that that has created a pathway for presidents to exert more authority at home. We saw that in the Bush administration. Are you saying that we should be worried about a false flag? No, what I mean is the Trump administration saying, Iran is going to do this and so we need to do whatever. I see like overreach. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

We need to deploy national guard. Right. We need to round up all Iranian nationals, right? Which in the Bush administration, there were registration things for Muslim men. I mean, I as a kid remember, company my brother to one of those. So that exists in living memory in the United States. And that's what I tell people to be cautious about. I want to ask you about this.

The president, I think it's Richard Haas, I think I'm saying his name right, of a council on foreign relations was on CNN. And he said this. So not this part, but assuming that there were no theatrics that the U.S. didn't tip off Iran in any way, right? But they just did this. He said, I think the more interesting thing other than retaliation is reconstitution. And he talks, he goes on to say, what lessons did the Iranians draw? from these attacks. And then he goes on to say

that they may say something like, well, we'll decide that this would never have happened had we had nuclear weapons. So their retaliation right now may be a little modest, but then maybe years down the road, this incidents or these incidents might

put them on a trajectory. When there's another crisis, they'll be in a completely different position. Your response, that's, that is, scary. You know, I'm not a conspiracy theory person. I kind of am on this page where they didn't know. So we need to be asking the questions, what lessons are they learning from this? What did they learn? Okay, this is what happened this time. What could happen next time? And how do we better

prepare and arm ourselves? Yeah, I think there's a really high likelihood that the Iranians have taken a lesson. We have to have secretive facilities. We have to have backups for our backups. right? And that's where I don't think for all that there's a lot of talk about, can Trump get, get us back on the trajectory towards a new nuclear deal? I don't know that any new nuclear deal would be as strong as the deal that Obama was able to get, because he was able to get really tight limits on Iran's enrichment and a huge degree of access to the International Atomic Energy Energy Agency, IAEA, to Iran's facilities. Now you've seen a lot of Iranian officials actually say, we don't. trust the AIA, maybe they gave the US coordinates and information about our facilities, right? And whether that's cluster, that the risk that people on the inside believe that, what you're risking, right, Rachel, I think this gets your question is you're risking the development of another North Korea, right? A more kind of how do we pull back from global economy and feel we just need to be really, North Korea developed a nuclear weapon and no one's attack them, right? So how do we

become that? And that's a fear. And it's not. It's not. just not it's a missed opportunity because the U.S. and Iran do not fundamentally necessarily have to be enemies and adversaries in this way. All right. Last question for me. Thank you so much for your time. We might as well just

give you a standing spot on the podcast at this point. The Iranians will not negotiate directly with the United States of America. The accusation from J.D. Vance, from Donald

Trump from everyone is that they were negotiating in bad faith to end their nuclear program for the last month. They haven't really given us an idea or any actual tangible ways that they were negotiating in bad faith. We've heard that they've been stonewalling, that they wouldn't answer, that they were aloof and all of that. But we, it's all very cagey. We haven't got, okay, this is the way that we knew that they were negotiating in bad faith.

But what we do know is that they won't negotiate with us without the Qataris, without somebody else acting as a go-between. Why? Well, I think there's, well, there's two things. One is it's important to the regime. It's a sensitivity thing. They don't want to be seen as bending the need to the United States. I mean, that's just fundamental to who they are as a government, right? Especially in a country where there was a U.S.-packed dictator previously from whom this current regime took over.

they want to be very clear, we have our sovereignty, we're not, you know, recognizing your establishing relations with you. So they use Qatar, Oman, other countries as mediators, Europeans sometimes as mediators. In terms of the actual terms of the deal and why that changed, the previous deal took close to three years to be negotiated, right? This doesn't happen in Donald Trump began nuclear negotiations with Iran in February and went to war in June.

So, you know, this doesn't happen in three months ever. That said, too, yes, Iran, I think, delayed in some spaces in responding. The really significant thing that changed in the course of that nuclear diplomacy, though, was that the U.S. shifted the goalpost. So the U.S. went from saying, you can have, like the Obama-era deal, you can have some enrichment of uranium to, you got none, to zero. So that is the U.S. saying we're not even going back to that old deal. We want you to give up a whole lot more.

Then the vice president is lying because he's been going everywhere saying that it's okay for them to have a civilian or a civil nuclear program and a civil enrichment program. He's been saying that on every show that he's been on. But you're saying that that's not the case. I mean, the vice president also said this isn't a regime change war and that his boss said, less than 12 hours later, we want regime change in Iran. You know, so I think this administration is a case of right hand, not talking to the left hand, Trump's diplomatic convoy, Steve Whitkoff, who's just a businessman. He's not a seasoned diplomat by any means, said no enrichment.

And that became kind of a poison pill in the talks. I think Avans would prefer to get back on that road. But diplomacy is very hard, and how do you get a concession from the Iranians? that Trump would also accept as sufficient. I'll pose to you the same question that I posed to Congressman Rokham on the show. Do you think that war is inevitable at this point? You know, I wrote an article two years ago

when Trump was running for president saying Trump is promising peace, war seems more likely with Iran. And I really was unhappy that that prediction came true. So, you know, we are, there's no denying that the U.S. is currently in an active conflict with Iran, right? It might not be a full-scale war, but the U.S. is in conflict. It is intercepted Iranian missiles. It has bombed Iran-sensitive sites. The willingness is not there in Washington and Tehran to have a war, and that's the thing that gives me hope to avoid that.

How do you translate that willingness into really concrete steps, and how do you kind of prevent Tel Aviv? from being the spoiler, that's the real limiting factor. But I think that there's reason to hope that we don't get to fill out more because of that. Akbar, we'll be reaching out probably this weekend, man. I'm going to be honest with you.

Don't call me so fun. Thank you guys. Thank you for joining us on higher learning. As the world turns, literally, we'll continue to keep in contact with you. But we appreciate you, my brother. so much. Thank you. Okay. Okay, now to sports.

Peace. All right. Lighten it up. Let's take a little break and then we're going to come back on the other side of this and get to some basketball. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies. Sweet Green's new wraps have got you. Reeling Ingredients, zero shortcuts. Everything you love in one hand. Think green goddess chicken, garlic aoli, crumbled bacon, corn salsa, 40 grams of protein. Made to keep up with whatever comes next. New sweet green wraps hit different. Order now at order.com. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters.

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What are you talking about? What? How are you going? What do you mean? Okay, first of all, I wanted to say congratulations to the Oklahoma City Thunder who won the NBA championship, okay? They won it, game seven.

Thoughts? I couldn't watch it out here. It comes on at three in the morning. Yeah. So I woke up, so can I just tell you, I woke up to Oklahoma City winning. I looked at the score and I was like, geez, I honestly thought that the momentum,

even though it was a home game for OKC, I thought the momentum was with the Pacers, and then I read Halliburton went out with an Achilles injury in the first quarter. So I automatically think, and I saw Bill talk about this a little bit. Yeah. Bill Simmons?

Would you want to, Bill Simmons, yes? Would you want to, I mean, a win is a win. You won the championship. Of course you would want to win. But the next day, everybody was talking about what if. That sucks. Yeah. It's happened before.

It's happened before, of course. I'm going to do a list for Monday. It's going to take me a while to compile this list. I'm going to go back, I think, 10, maybe 15 years, but at least 10 years. I'm going to spend my weekend doing this. And I'm going to rank the rings

in order. Like, what are the real rings? because there are some rings in the last decade to where this person's been hurt or multiple people, multiple people have been hurt to where. Or there was a bubble. Or there was, be careful. I'm just saying it. Or there was a bubble. Okay, just be, you know, I'm saying respectful.

You know, you in L.A. now. Like, you don't want to go out and run into James Worthy. I'm at Paris. And then you have a problem with James Worthy. You don't want to see James. out at catch or something like that and you get Big Game James coming over to you and being like, yo, what's that shit you was talking about?

I'm just telling you what the people were talking about. Don't act like it was the topic of conversation. I'm going to go through every year though because there are some rings out there. Not every ring is created equal. There are some rings out there to where if you look at it, it's like, God damn. Not to hate on Janus.

That Janus Ring, Yonis went and got that from Phoenix, but that Janus Ring had a lot of stuff going with it. You know, Durant gets hurt. The rant and Clay get hurt for the Raptors ring. All right. But then on the other side of that Warriors ring, you have Kyrie Irvin and Kevin love getting hurt. So there are some rings out here. Not every ring is created equal. There are some rings out here. I'm going to go through every single year and talk about it. And I'm just saying don't just talk about injuries.

talk about the bubble, talk about people missing a game due to being ejected before, due to fouls. You know, those are conversations too. Yeah. It's a lot of work. Yeah. No, no, you're right. I mean, all of that has to do with it, right?

You're right. Also, maybe the favorite team gets knocked out, and once they get knocked out, it's like all of these rings aren't created equal. There's so much to, yeah. There's a lot of stuff going on with these rings. However, still, though, congratulations to the Oklahoma City Thunder. They won the championship.

We can do that now, but in 30 years, ain't nobody going to remember nothing except for the fact that they won the championship. And honestly, for what I saw, a fun series to watch. One of the best final series ever. Yeah. So many ebts and flows. I do want to say something about Tyrese Halliburton right now. I have not spoken to Tyrese Halliburton.

But I just want to let people know something. years ago, I was doing a talk at the Nike. You told us. Tell you guys about this about Tyrese Halliburton. I am a Tyres Halliburton fan. The young man was tremendous even then. So I hope for a speedy recovery for Tyrese Halliburton. And it was gutting to watch what happened to him on the floor yesterday.

It was gutting to watch that. And I obviously didn't see it. I read about it the next day, but when as I was reading about it, I saw the dialogue, Jay Will. Maybe we should have Jay Will on the show really had a whole thing. I don't know if you saw it about why we are getting so many Achilles injuries as of late. We're breaking records when it comes to it. And there's a number of different reasons as to why people to think this is happening. And I just think when I saw that, I thought again and then I saw the dialogue happening again.

It's just something to talk about. It is. Paces up. They're running a lot more miles. I mean, I mean that. They're running a lot more miles than they used to. The paces up. The nature of the game has changed. If we look at just this season, three different Achilles injuries, Dane, Reese, Jason Tatum. It's insane. But I heard that Halliburton knew he was playing with the risk of that happening because of that cap string. Right. The calf strain. I mean, remember, that was the same thing with Kevin Durant. Kevin Duran had had the calf stream, and then he was out for a couple of weeks, maybe a month he comes back and he tears his Achilles very early on into his comeback. So, you know, it's not an easy fix because the only way to fix it is to play less games. So if you're going to go, you're going to, like Jay Will was talking about making the first round five games again,

which I wouldn't be against, right? Or shortening the NBA season, and that means less money. And they're not going to want to do that. So if a couple of guys, Achilles have to fucking pop, then they'll probably be okay with that. Something else had happened. Kevin Durant was traded to the rocket. So Kevin Durant's going back to Texas,

Texas, the scene of some of Durant's most legendary conquests. He's back in Texas. That's good. You like that, huh? Okay. Phoenix Suns

That's just kidding. Phoenix Suns have acquired Kevin Durant Jalen Green, Dylan Brooks trade him for the number 10 pick you know the season

when the league year begins on July 6th this will be made I guess formal here. He was on stage at Fanatics Fest or when this happened and so he learned about it in real time. This is a big trade. I mean, Durant's been traded a couple of times now.

So it's not like it was him moving teams. It wasn't like it was when he moved teams to Golden State, but it's a big deal in the culture of the NBA to have Kevin Durant still one of the best scores in the league end up on the Houston Rock. Because Houston, to me now, if you look at them now, if they can get Van Fleet back, I guess, or if they can keep Van Fleet, they are a championship contender to me. I think so, as long as Emmett Thompson keeps getting better.

I mean, oh, you said Thompson. Yeah, yeah. I mean, obviously Houston was great last year. I think if you're asking me who won, I think Houston obviously won. I don't really know what Phoenix is going to do. Phoenix has all these guards. Maybe they boosted their defense,

but they're still not building a team around Devin Booker, which is the star, the one they want to keep. I mean, I don't know. Not to see. Yeah, it depends on the line. I don't think. I mean, I was it like that moved. We know they secretly tried to trade Kevin earlier.

They're trying to free up space. So I just, I don't. I was like, okay. First name. What? They secretly tried to. You didn't say Durant. You didn't say KD.

You said Kevin. You said amen. We go about first name. I'll say Devin. I said, Damon. I said, Amen Thompson. I said, Damon. I said, Devin.

I, we, you said Kevin. They secretly tried to get to trade Kevin. My point is, I think this was as big of a deal as people are making, but obviously when you have a big star like Kevin Durant, it is going to be a big deal. Is that better for you? The question is, um,

wow. Okay, you got to, we got to take that out. We got to take that out. That was too far. Crossing lines. Crossing lines. There he goes.

There he goes. Yes. Crossing lines. Thank you, Donnie. That has to come out. And by the way, leave it. in there just, but we had to take that out. That's too far.

Look, I saw something that bothered the shit out of me. You see Tracy McGrady talking about Kobe? Do you see that? I wonder what you think about stuff like this. Play the clip. Play the clip. This is Tracy McGradie on Kobe. We have too many talented players that come through this league that are championship worthy.

What I mean by that, if you put them, if you take them off a team that is a championship quality team, replace me with Colise me with Colise me with Colise me. Kobe would shot. I don't win a championship. You don't think I could carry the Lakers to a championship? Like, I've never had the opportunity. Correct. I felt like if I was put in that position to win a championship, I damn sure would show up and do what I do in the playoffs to elevate my team to that level. I just never had the chance. So do I get diminished because I never won a championship? Right. Yeah, that's what. That's what they're saying.

Kobe would never say them. Wow. I don't think, I think what makes Kobe great, obviously many things, but one of them is the mentality that he had and the work ethic he had. You would never hear him say,

I would have done this if. We just got it done. So he did one time ask the Lakers for more help. Okay, he did ask. That's fine. What I'm saying is you wouldn't, like, the moment I heard Tracy McGrady say that, I'm like,

you would never hear Kobe talk. You know what I did when I heard this? I reached out to a speech coach. What was that your thought? What? I reached out to a speech coach. When I heard this, I went, what can I do to get better? I swear, I reached out to a speech coach.

She's a big fan of yours, by the way. I reached out to a speech coach and I was like, there are too many times on the podcast where I stutter, where I stammer, where I can't find my word. where there are so many ideas in my head at the same time of things I want to say and stuff that I want to do to where I am not as good of a communicator as I need to be. And I want to do as much as I possibly can

to be the best communicator that I can be right now, the best podcast that I can be right now, because in 15 or 20 years, I don't want to be sitting somewhere talking about what I could have done. You already had it again. This shit bothers the shit out of me. Kobe was better than T-MAC because he wanted to be better than T-Mack. I saw somebody on Twitter say something that was so real.

T-Mack had, T-Mack is a building that had 100 floors. He went up to 75. Kobe was a building that had 90 floors and he went up to 90. So I don't like this type of shit. He wanted to be better than T-Mack. He had to be better than T-Mack. He was willing to give his body, his reputation, all of that to be better than T-Mack. So much of greatness when we talk about it is in what people are willing to sacrifice and dedicate to it.

And that's really the Kobe thing. Now, Jordan was just a, Jordan was a motherfucker. Jordan had that same thing. But Jordan, Jordan Building had 100 floors as well. He might have had 110 to his. And so Jordan was different. But shit. that hurt me that T-Mac was sitting up there

acting like a loser like talking about you or Tracy McGregie making excuses. Making excuses about it, man. There was a lot of excuse making last week and a lot of people that seemingly don't have no self-awareness. Like that part. Yeah, like what the fuck is going on?

That's that conversation. You could tell he's at that conversation multiple times and he should have continued to have that conversation in private because that's not a conversation that you bring out to the public. Because immediately when I heard it, I thought stop.

Stop. And I'm going to be honest with you. It's not like Team Mac didn't have anybody. Team Mac had some good teams. Not really in Orlando. But in Houston, we're talking about. Yeah, for sure. Meta, Yao, when y'all was on the court,

Shane Badiye, there were guys there with him. And he just didn't do what Kobe did to get to where Kobe was. He just didn't do it. He did. didn't do it. He was a bad motherfucker. Do not get me wrong. Tracy McGrady was a bad motherfucker, but Kobe was doing it on defense. Kobe had to win. He had

to be the best. There's something wrong. So I don't know, man. I don't know. But I'm going to tell you guys about how things go with the speech coach. I got to do it. Can I just say, what? You got a speech coach. Fine, whatever. Please tell her I said hello. Yeah. I always feel like when it comes to podcasting, the beauty of podcasting is the authenticity of it and how raw it is and how like I just stumbled over saying that word and I don't say everything absolutely perfect. We're not here on this podcast to give speeches. We're here to have conversations. We're here to process things in real time. We become prepared and we do your research, but things are unpredictable. We started off this show,

not knowing we were going to talk about the things that we talked about. I mean, I think if you want to articulate things better. Sure. But when it comes to the beauty of podcasting, what makes it so great, you don't need a coach for that. Well, the lady's name is Susan Murphy. I want to big her up. We're meeting tomorrow.

Hi, Susan. Susan Murphy, Sue Murph is what I call her. I've never called her that before. But, yeah, not to make speeches, but for me to be articulate and sometimes more concise. Concise? Yeah. Everybody's going to be so excited. Yeah, I'm telling you, concise.

Concise. Get in and get out. Get in, get out. Just get in and get out. I was about to hit you again. Just, just. What else we have to talk about? What else we have to talk about?

Oh, we got to do, hold on for a second. I want to do this in real time. Because you have a very important thing to do right now. You have a very important responsibility. I don't want to do it. You have to do it. We waited for you to do it. I changed my mind.

No, we waited for you to do it. You have to do it. Hold on. I don't want to do it. Today is the day that we're going to crown the face of the ringer. Okay. I don't want to do it. I was listening. I love the conversation.

You have to do it. CT, could I have the. And, um. Rachel, you have to do it. You have to do it. These are the face of the ringer finals. I was. Okay.

These are the finalists, Rachel. Okay. This is Sean Finacy, Mallory Rubin. Chris Ryan and of course Bill Simmons. Okay. So Rachel, I was able to pick the finalist. You have to pick the winner

about who you think the face of the ringer is. Okay, I'm trying to read some of the things that you have. For Bill, you have founder. Why does it say Lightning Rod? Because Bill is a lightning rod for conversation on the nets. Like Bill is by far the ringer employee or person that gets aggregated the most.

Like I can come out right now and say, yeah, T-Max's all fucking bum, hey, fuck them, you know what I mean? Nobody's going to care. But when Bill says it, that's true. He gets aggregated. I was on two different podcasts with Bill,

and he said two different things, you know, about people who don't work here. It's just saying, you know, we're just joking around doing the watchables. Both of them make big news, right? Oh, the Pablo, yeah. One of them led to, you know, Popua having to go on the podcast and him and Bill having to talk and then, you know, talking about this. Okay.

Who tried to save nobody? Ain't no saving now. Let's not, don't make me, hold on for a second. It don't need to save nobody. Don't make me get into the whole metal art thing. Don't make me get into it. Okay. Move to John.

Because I'm, I'm ready to pop shit. I'm about your goddamn Peabody Award. Shout out to Pablo. Okay, Sean. Sean is the intellectual center. Okay. He's the head of culture here, and he does the big pick. Okay.

Then you have Mallory Rubin, my sister, Mal, head of the ringer verse, obviously very close to my heart. Draft expert. We do so many drafts here at the ringer. You do so many drafts and I really do enjoy them, even if I don't understand what's going on. Like I see them on social. You guys do them on podcast. I actually really love the drafts that you do.

They're so creative. She is the draft expert to me And the resident deep diver If you need someone to deep dive into something Give you like a syllabus on something It's Mallory Rubin We come back to CR He is a five tool player

He's the most versatile player at the ringer Any podcast anywhere, any time CR got you Uh Impressions Master You ever see him on the rewatchables? Yeah he's like, hey I'm Wayne Jenkins Or hey I'm fucking doors

Burke or whoever. He's the impressions master. He does. He's great. Has he done me? No, he hasn't done you. I could have got you again. Has he done an impression of me? I could have got you again. Has he done an impression of me? You know, big kid. He hasn't done an impression of you. All right. And honestly, when we had CR here, it was obvious to me that CR was a little bit more affected than I thought that he was about you not knowing who he was. Whatever. I listened to it. So you don't, you didn't come across, he didn't come across, should I say, at somebody who was like, it would be nice if Rachel, a big, big part.

He came ready to get some of them jabs in. Oh, oh. You thought he was talking shit? He was talking about shit. Oh, that's what I like, Rachel. He was talking about it. Is there a Rachel? Is there a Rachel?

Forget about it. the van metal lark beef. Is there a Rachel Chris Ryan beef? There might be. There might, we might be frenemies.

There might be. Let's start a ringer beef. That's good. A ringer beef, or intra ringer beef? Let's start a podcast to beef with. Who should we beef with as a podcast? So it's us versus the watch.

Do you want to do, do you want to do podcast podcast or do you want to do like people versus people? Either way. It's up to you. It's up to you. All right. I'm starting, Chris. There you go. Rachel versus Chris Ryan.

And then his podcast is the watch. I do like the beefs. The beefs are great. It's good. I think some of these beefs, I think some of these beefs are calculated and choreographed, not here at the ringer, but there's all these media beefs. I think these people be on text together. I'm going to be real with you.

Okay. So you have ringer visibility, cultural visibility, entertainment visibility, and then influence. Okay, and this is on a scale. We're doing a scale. One to five. One to five. Five being the most.

Donnie, keep the scores. Keep Rachel's scores. Okay. Well, we're not, I don't fucking feel like going through all of this without everybody. Okay. Okay. I don't feel like one thing. I'll just give numbers.

Okay. For Bill. Five. All the way down? Oh, no, no, no. I'll say so RV, CV. He gets a five for ringer. verse.

Okay. For ringer visibility. What does that say? E. NT. what? Entertainment value. Like how,

how entertaining they are. Yeah. Okay, I'm going to go with a five. Uh-huh. Three. Okay. Five.

Okay. Wow. Okay. You, I mean, the fact that he's a lighten rod shows the influence that he has. Okay, cool.

It's Bill Simmons. He created the ringer. He's a lot of influence. You said it. Okay, cool. What he says makes news. It gets people's attention. It creates like people post tweets go viral, videos go viral.

Yeah, he's got the influence. Okay, so Sean. But he's a certain part of the ringer, which is why the culture was lower. Yeah. Okay, so Sean. Five. Well, four. Four.

Four. Four. Three. Okay. Uh. Four. Okay. Influence.

Five. Sean Finacy. He's behind. He makes a lot of decisions. He makes his a lot of influence. His is more of a behind the scenes influence, I feel. Hates Atlanta. Yikes.

Well, he got a three on culture. So he, he had a tweet where it was a very funny tweet. I still haven't gotten the full story from him. But he had a tweet where he was like, uh, the people were very, kind, but I will not be returning to

Atlanta. And I was wondering what the fuck happened. When Sean said that? I told somebody else said that. No, it was Sean Finacy. I think it had to do with the Braves. Oh, did it have to do with the Braves and the Mets? Was that why? I thought you said the braids. Oh, my God.

Imagine if Sean Fennacy didn't like it, because if he just looked around like, man, got too many braids in this motherfucker. All this goddamn horse hair. I thought that's what he said. What did Pastor Manning say? Niggerism? Can you imagine?

That would be so funny if Sean just looked around and he was like... What if it was the braids? What all the braids in this motherfucker? What is it the braids? Yeah, what is it the braids? I'll tell you something.

That would never happen. Sean used to work for Vibe. Did you know that? He was a writer for Vibe magazine. He was cool with Kinse. Dan, we've got to up his culture. Okay. Oh, you want to up his culture because of the vibe?

No, no, no, no. It is what it is. No, da-da-da-da. Okay. So now... All right. RV. Okay.

Five, five, five, four. Five, five, five, four for Mal. Yeah. Do you want to quantify these in any way or? I mean, yes, I did confuse Mal with Amanda. But some people have written me and said that was a logical mistake. What the fuck? That should have been another beef.

I got here to start beefs. No, but like everybody knows who Al is. Everybody knows. Even if I didn't recognize her by face, I know what her influence is. I know what she does. I didn't know the draft part. But she's so a part of the rigor. She's like infiltrated in it.

So I give her five for Reader's. Same with culture. Because she's spread out. She does so many different podcasts, different types of podcasts. I think that's important. She and Chris are right up there with that. Okay. Entertainment value.

She's super smart. Obviously entertaining. Like she can talk she's like Y'all can talk about anything Okay Influence I don't listen The one reason I said a four Is because I don't listen to as much as of her

I don't listen to her podcast like that So I don't know what kind of influence she has Outside of this but Gotcha I know there are a lot of mouth fans All right now this is the This one is the controversial one Let me tell you why

To me CR is the face of the ringer Okay That's what I think. I'll tell you right now he's not for me. When you get back, we got to bring CR on the podcast to hash this out. How can I make him the face of the ringer when he says that I act like I don't know who he is? Well, wait a second, though.

Okay. I don't want to get into this whole situation where I'm defending CR. I don't want to. But of course, but you didn't know who he was. You didn't know who he was. And I'm not denying that. So how can I crown this man the face of the ring? Wow.

Let's give the scores. Scores are as follows. Five. Okay. Five. Okay. Four. Okay.

Three. Wow. Donnie, do you have these scores all lined up? Ooh. Let's go through them. Bill, you got five, three, five, three. Sean, you got four, three, four, five. I can't feel a five on influence.

No. No. Right. I said a 5355. Okay. Sean, you got 4, 3, 4.5. Okay. Mallory, you got 5, 5, 5, 5.4.

Wow. So it looks like she's the face. And Chris, you got 5. Hold on, hold, hold on. You didn't add these scores up? You're just given the... No. You didn't add the numbers up.

Donnie. I can look at it and see that. Mallory, okay, let me do it real quick. Mallory has the higher score. We... No, no, no, no, no, no. Donnie, you're ruined. in it. Okay. What we need, what we needed to do. Now, I didn't want to do the math because I can't do it, right? I'm not nearly as smart as I get credit for. So, Donnie, you were supposed to have done the math here so that we would know first, second, third, and fourth place. You'd have to do that. You're supposed to do the math. Almost. Okay. So Bill, Bill is 18. Okay. Sean is 16.

Okay. Mallory is 19 19 19. 19. What the fuck is going to? And then Chris. Donnie. Are you fucking with me? 17.

Okay. So we got first place, face of the ringer is Mallory. Second place. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is the ringer. What? There's no second place.

Oh, then what the fuck did I add all the stuff for it? Because you were supposed to add it up and you were supposed to add it up and you were supposed to like in a dramatic way, Donnie, like roll out the numbers and then say, but face of the ringer is Mallory Rubin. But you know what? It's higher learning. And who, that's the way it would go. But I will tell you this, I am delighted because the first annual face of the ringer

has been crowned. Rache has made her decision and in a stunning upset a stunning upset she came in like this she loves Harrison Ford she loves Star Wars

she loves Marvel she loves a deep dive she loves Halo the cat the face of the ringer is officially Mallory Mal Rubin and I want you to play right now

Donnie the best moment of any podcast I have ever been on which is Mallory's anecdote about the movie snatch from the big

picked podcast the draft that we just did and this I've heard this yeah put it in right here yeah a lot of things

were happening late in high school in young men's basements. A lot of things were happening in young men's basements in Meals. Were you there? I was. You know, some okay, the parents are upstairs, but like, sure, it's time for a blowjob.

And then... Jesus Christ! Watch it snatch! Watch it snatch! I am taking snatch. And that'll tell you why Mallory Rubin is the face of the ringer

for 2025. Give me some applause. Give it up for Mal. Mal is the face of the ringer. Rachel, we do this every year on June 10th now. So you're going to have... What are we doing on July 4th? I don't know.

We take that off. Yeah, we take that off. We just will be gone. We'll need that. But every year on Juneteenth, we crown the face of the ringer with only ones that can do it. All right.

Glaze of the week time. This is going to be a quick one. I'll see Chris in these ringer streets. Oh. So... If I recognize. I recognize them. Oh, shit.

I may just walk on by. Damn. Not CR. You know, I think CR is the face of the ringer. It's your decision to make. He easily could be. But I couldn't say it when I didn't recognize it. How do you think Bill will react to not be in the face of the ringer?

I think he's happy about that. Yeah, I think you probably isn't good. I'll tell you guys this, though. Once again, the Bill situation is it's a LeBron thing. He is. The League, but he's not the face of the league right now. We'll see if Rachel makes the finals next week. All right.

Glaze of the week real quick. This is an easy one. I'm not going to spend too much time on this. Glaze of the week. Glaze of the week. You're on somebody's meat. It's the glaze of the week. Glaze of the week.

Glaze of the week. You're sucking dick. Wow. It's a hit. My jingles are. are crazy. Anyway, Glaze of a week, this week is very simple. It's anyone, anyone who has uttered the phrase, I stand with President Trump in response to the bombings in Iran. That's glazing. That's a glaze. That's a fucking glaze. I don't care what you say. Now, if you were to say I stand with America, I can actually get that, right? That's a broad term. But if you say I stand with America, let me tell you what that means. That means that you have to take into consideration into account what's good for America. So if you say I stand. with America. That means whatever's in America's best interest, I stand with that. So that opens up a

conversation. That means does this work for the American troops? Does this work for the American economy? Does this work for the American people? Is this good for America when you say I stand with America? You can stand with America and that means you might stand against certain people because maybe what they want is good for them, but not good for America. Now, if you say you stand with President Trump, that's different. That's not standing for America's security. That's That's not standing for America's reputation. That's not standing for America's place in the world. That's standing for Donald Trump.

And that's glazing, man. That's a glaze. So that means anything that Donald Trump do, anything that he does, you stand with him. That's a glaze. I'm sorry, that's religious. That's a glaze. You're down for whatever he does.

If Trump fucks your mom, I stand with President Trump. If Trump pisses off an overpass on to a Juneteenth parade, I stand with President Trump. If Trump makes you a sandwich with the booty of the bread, you know what I'm talking about? You know the booty part of the bread?

You ever seen that? Yes, yes. The end, the booty of the bread. Me and Ian made up a song back in the day called the booty of the bread, colon, we never eat it. We don't eat the booty of the bread, but you would eat the booty of the bread What? What? What did you say?

I love the end. Wait a second, man. No, keep going. Nah, fuck all right. It's a glaze. It's a glaze. I could go on with it. Glaze of the week is people that fuck with Donald Trump. It's religious. That means you believe in everything he has to do.

It's totally different. Let's back it up real quick. you eat the booty of the bread. Have you ever toasted the booty of the bread? So, okay. So we didn't have, we had money, okay? There's a misnomer here that Van grew up super, super poor,

and that Rachel grew up super, super rich. That's actually not true. We struggled early on, and then we had stuff later on. Okay, but early on it was a struggle, but my parents were a great American success story. My mother is one of the most brilliant, hardworking, amazing women in the world. She was going to make a way for her kids to have the stuff that they needed.

However, in our darkest days, Rachel, we did not eat the booty of the bread. What the fuck was going on in the Lindsay household? Have you toasted the booty? Hold on for a second. I got to know. I got to do this real quick. No, we got to go. No, we got to know.

Fuck this. I'm not doing this. Fuck it. I'm not doing it. Fuck it. Hold on for a second. We got to do this. I can't believe this.

See, this is the type of shit that I should have known before we started this podcast. You probably didn't think I even knew what that was. I didn't. Hold on for a second. This, I got to, I got to call in. Ian, please pick up the phone, bro. I know that you're somewhere getting pretty. You're working out.

You're working on your singing. Ian, bruh. What's the, what's your opinion on the booty of the bread? We never eat it. We never eat it. We never eat it. Ian, guess who eats the booty of the bread? Who likes the booty of the bread?

Wrong. Rachel. Rachel, I was about to say. Rachel is the next guess. Rachel, Rachel, talked about she. He's toasted. She don't eat, she don't eat,

macaroni and cheese, she'll eat mashed potatoes. She don't eat, but she eat the butter. But she eat the butter. booty of the bread. What the I'm really, I'm actually shocked here. Asked if it makes a difference if it's toasted. Rachel said,

have you ever toasted the booty of the bread before? I can't hold you. I have. It's pretty tasty. Oh, no, no, no. No, no. Mien's gone. No. Fuck no.

No. Fion's gone. Nope. Fucking embarrass me like that. No way. I told you. No way. Ian's done. Hell no.

It's so good. I curse everybody. You know what? This is not my pod today. This is not the Ian. Ian, I call Ian that we go through the whole thing on the booty of the bread. Now guess what I'm going to do? I'm going to go home.

I'm going to toast the booty of the bread. Because I've never done it before. And now is it in. No, hell not. Toast it. And when it's warm, put a little butter on it. No. Let the butter melt.

And you got it in like not a light, so it's like a little bit of a burnt, a burnt Chris, little burnt booty crisp. Ian, Ian, this is why I talk about with Ian, y'all. Ian is a, I love Ian, but Ian too much of a wild car. I hope you listen to this, boom. I love you to death. By the way, happy birthday to Ian. It was Ian's birthday a couple of days ago.

Happy birthday to Ian. Oh, happy birthday. I love my entire crew. But Ian is a wild car. You never know what Ian got up here. This whole time, me and Ian have established a credo, an actual motto and a slogan around not eating the booty of the bread. I've evangelized this all over the place.

It's different places in Louisiana who don't look at the booty of the bread as something viable because me and Ian were together. And this whole time this nigga is going behind my back, toasting the booty of the bread and eating it. rapport of actors, because I know what you mean. You get the bread pack and you see usually when it gets down, you leave the two ends. But then one day, you thought, don't really have a lot to eat in the house. What if I toasted the booty?

You toast it and get a little crisp. Just slightly burnt. It's got to be a real toast. My light toast. Put a little butter on it when it's still warm. Because the booty curves. And you take that piece, oh, nothing better. nothing better report back we didn't get to a couple of things we didn't get to to Jim Jones and

Sharon Sharp it's very funny we didn't get to a couple of other things whatever we missed we will get to it on Thursday or have a brand new pot for you it's so good to have Rachel back I did not realize the booty of the bread thing congratulations to Mallory Rubin being voted the face of the ringer thank you to congressman O'Connor. Also thank you to Akbar for joining us on the podcast today. You guys continue to watch the news, continue to keep up with what's going on domestically

and overseas. I implore you guys to continue to keep your eyes on your neighborhoods and your communities in terms of what the ICE is doing and other ways that the Trump administration might

be taken advantage of some political misdirection to be able to get other things off and be more draconian about things because we are concentrating our efforts somewhere else. Okay? I'll train our attention somewhere else, shall I say?

Susan's going to help me with that. So don't take your eye off what's happening in your backyard. Don't take your eye off what's happening in your backyard. Parting words? No. No. Congratulations world. It was a fantastic podcast.

I felt like. Congratulations to Mallory. we got beefs on the table. We had great interviews, the whole deal, but I felt like I was stabbed in the back by Ian. Okay, and I'd like to give you some parting words from the President of the United States. He tweeted, not too long ago,

congratulations, world. It's time for peace. Well, whatever. Whoever, I don't have anything to say. Take things caps off, but do not stop learning. Ian, Jesus Christ. I'm Van Lathan Jr.

I'm Richard. I'm going to be back. Did you know if your windows are bare, indoor temperatures can go up 20 degrees? Get ahead of summer with custom window treatments like solar roller shades from blinds.com and save up to 45% off during the Memorial Day Early Access Sale. Whether you want to DIY it or have a pro handle everything, we've got you. Free samples, real design experts, and zero pressure. Just help when you need it.

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