Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - An Oscars Recap, and Talking ‘Opus’ With Mark Anthony Green

Episode Date: March 4, 2025

Van and Rachel remember the life and career of Angie Stone (00:34) before reacting to the Oscars (2:36), and Van has thoughts on a Conan hip-hop joke (4:20). Then, a discussion of the lawsuit against Jay-Z being dropped (18:25), before filmmaker Mark Anthony Green joins to talk about his directorial debut, ‘Opus’ (42:22) and Ayo Edebiri’s star power (1:01:35). Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Mark Anthony Green Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? High learning is on. It is I, Van Lathen, Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. Starting with some sad news here. And by the way, I want to address something. We did not mention the death of Michelle Tractonberg, who passed away.

And she was omnipresent in a lot of things that I watched growing up. So that was an oversight, but we did not mention the death. Oscars didn't either. The Oscars didn't either. We'll talk about that in a second. But Angie Stone, somebody who we really know, who was a fixture in music since the late 70s, passed away in a car crash early Saturday morning

about 5 a.m. Angie Stone, amazing voice, amazing talent, long career in the business. So rest and peace to Angie Stone. Yeah, I just want to say Angie Stone and so many other. that were so influential in Neo's soul and the rise of that, that was around, and I know a lot of people can relate to this. Angie Stone, for me, really represents a coming of age time for me. High school, I was learning so much about myself. I was starting to get so much more curious, and part of that was the music that I was starting to listen to, and that included Angie Stone.

I feel like she was part of the soundtrack of my teenage years, and she just represented so much, not just music, even like the things that she, I mean, the song, Brother alone, a black woman, praising black men, the video, all the cameos that were in it. If you go back and you listen to the lyrics of the song, just the way that she honored, we joke about gender wars and stuff like that. And it seems sometimes we're so against one another. But then you look at that song that came out in the early 2000s, and it was such a unifying moment.

And I feel like that is what Angie Stone represented. So rest in peace to Angie Stone. Also, you know, her career went through many different iterations. She was part of the sequence early on. Another group too, I think. But then stays in the business, you know, through her voice and through her talent and actually starts to find success as a solo artist later on in her career. So shout out to Andrew Stone.

As a matter of fact, let's take a little break. and then we'll talk a little bit more about some of the other things from the Oscars on the other side of this. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away.

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All right, we tease it. Let's get into it. The Oscars was last night. What were you guys as takeaway from the ceremonies, award winners and whatnot? Best picture of Nora. Best director, Sean Baker, Anora, best actor, Adrian Brody, the brutalist,

best actress, Mikey Madison, Anora, Karen Colkin for Real Pain. Zoe Saladana for Amelia Perez. Best documentary feature, No Other Land, controversial for a lot people. That was the controversial thing for a lot of people you said. I mean, it was controversial for a lot of people who have. I thought this actress was controversial. Well, I mean, they're controversial for different reasons. One was controversial for political reasons. The other

one was controversial because of how people felt about them wanting Demi Morton. Ceremony was good. What did you think about everything? I actually watched it from start to finish. I feel like I haven't done that since the Chris Rock, Will Smith incident. Oh, wow. But I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it because, one, the opening scene was just incredible. I was expecting something with Wicked, but just seeing Ariana and Cynthia Arrivo both do, one, do somewhere of the rainbow, then Cynthia Arevo doing Home,

then them coming together to do Define Gravity. It was magical. I loved it. I loved every part of it. I also just really enjoy watching some of the lesser-known categories and seeing the passion from those people who are winning, you know, like everybody's waiting for best picture and best director and

best actor and actress and all of that. But I loved watching the person who won for live animation or for, well, editing with Sean Baker, but I just really loved listening to the speeches. This year, I really enjoyed the speeches. And I also thought Conan did a good job. He did a great job. I do want to point out that there was a call to action from the winners for Best Documentary Feature, which was no other land. And I want to play that audio right now as they spoke a little bit about what continues to go on over in the Middle East.

It's such a big honor for the four of us and everybody supported us for this documentary. About two months ago, I became a father and may hope to my daughter that she will not have to live the same life. I'm living now. Always feeling... Always feeling

settlers' violence, home demolitions, and forest-built displacements that my community, Masafriyatta, is living and facing every day under the Israeli occupation. No other land reflects the harsh reality that we have been enduring for decades and still resist, as we call on the war, to take serious actions to stop the injustice and to stop the ethnic cleansing of Palestinian people. We made this film, Palestinians and Israelis, because together our voices are stronger. We see each other the atrocious destruction of Gaza and its people,

which must end, the Israeli hostages, brutally taken in the crime of October 7th, which must be freed. When I look at Basel, I see my brother, but we are unequal. We live in a regime where I am free, civil law, ambassador is under military laws that destroy his life and he cannot control, there is a different path, a political solution, without ethnic supremacy, with national rights for both of our people. And I have to say, as I am here, the foreign policy in this country is helping to block this path.

So the movie was made, like I said, it's about going on in the West Bank. The movie was made by a joint Israeli and Palestinian production team. When I said that going on in the Middle of these earlier, I want to make sure that I'm talking about the genocide and proposed ethnic cleansing, the actual ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from Gaza, and also the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in the West Bank in the form of settlements and settler violence.

There are those who did not stand when the... movie one, best documentary. I judge you, but no one will judge you as harshly as history will. All right. There was something else that, so I enjoyed Conan, but there is something that got people a little mad at me

on Twitter about it. Conan made a joke. He made a lot, which joke? He made a joke. Played a joke, Donnie right here, played a joke, and then we'll talk about it. Well, we're halfway through the show, which means it's time for Kendrick Lamar to come out and call Drake a pedophile. Don't worry, I'm lawyered up.

I laughed. Okay. Okay. I laughed during that moment. Okay. I laughed too. Okay. The joke is funny.

First of all, I want to say something. There are a lot of people that when I said, hey, I thought that that was whack, because I did think it was whack, all right? Why? I thought it was whack because, and I think I'm wrong. And let me tell you how I'm wrong. Okay. This is how I look at rap beefs.

I look at rap beefs as essentially fights at the family reunion. Like, we're a big cultural family, and we got fights at the family reunion where one person is fighting with somebody else, cool. One person getting jokes off, hey, and the jokes, the fights at the family reunion aren't always above board. They're not always decent.

Sometimes you see two people fighting at the family reunion and it's like, well, we all know that baby ain't yours. And everybody is saying stuff that we, people have whispered about but it's not supposed to be said. People haven't liked each other for decades.

It's coming to a head. Blah, blah, blah, fights at the family reunion. Sometimes these people speak again. Sometimes they never speak again. Mm-hmm. Right. And when you, when I look at it like that, I always think it's kind of an R thing. The Super Bowl.

I was just about to say. I get it. The Super Bowl is a performance of that, but it's still coming from Kendrick. It still is Kendrick making these kinds of assertions and these kinds of jokes and these kinds of observations just in a different form. But it's still coming from him. It will be like a fight at the family reunion, like spilling through. as we're talking in school or we're talking at work in mixed company.

This seemed like to me somebody outside of it, mainstreaming it, this felt like an away game. And the reason why I said it was whack is because I'm looking at it like, it just felt off. I think it felt off to you because it was Conan, who's very white. Yeah. And it was at the Oscars, which, mainly is about movies and doesn't have anything to do with music specific.

Not that doesn't, but mainly is about movies and particularly not beefs. The only reason I will disagree with you is I agree what you're saying about rap beefs because most of them are kept within the culture and it's something we talk about. This rap beef almost needs another name because the way that it has crossed over into so many different areas, everybody knows it, everybody's talking about it, it only seemed appropriate to me that he did make this type of reference and I thought it showed the power of what Kendrick,

to me, obviously wanted to accomplish, which was to obliterate Drake in every aspect of it, not just with the beef. So maybe we need another name for it. Okay. Because I agree with you. Here's the thing. Number one, like, I get why I'm not somebody that subscribes to the idea

that Drake is not black. I do think that there are things about Drake that maybe the way he was reared culturally that don't align with our cultural perceptions. Drake's dad is a black guy from Memphis. Okay? So I'm not somebody that subscribes to the thing that Drake is not black.

I honestly did not realize how much people, and I said this on Twitter, took this rat beef to heart. I'm going to admit wrongness right here. This is by far the biggest cultural moment to me that I can remember

in hip hop. It feels like right now that this is not a rat beef and maybe I've said this before, maybe other people have said this before, it feels like a lot of people are viewing this as a fight for the soul of hip hop. So they want Drake

so in the dirt I looked at it as Kedrick put belt to ass on Drake That happened Kendrick put belt to ass on Drake Other people have gotten built to ass Put to them in rat beefs And it's moved on

Like they want People want this to be the end of Drake In a very distinct way They do And I never really looked at it that way I looked at a lot of shit That Drake has done as being corny I looked at a lot of shit

that Drake has done as inviting this type of criticism from people. But I never, the animus is something from both sides. The animus is something I kind of didn't expect was going to last and be as deep as it is right now. Now, I don't think it was going to last, but I think when it happened, it wasn't just, it became American versus Canadian. it became, it brought out a certain side of L.A.

or like California, L.A., because of the things that Drake said, it became light skin versus brown skin. It really became all these things, though. Okay. All of that's fine. Because, like, that happens in rap beef, right? Okay. It became something else, which I am going to admit I wasn't quite ready for it. It became the good people versus the bad people,

which is, I think, something that's new for even a rap beef. versus Canadian is fine because you can get East Coast versus West Coast. Havs versus have-nots is fine because you can get rappers that's closer to the street versus commercial rappers. All of that in some way we've kind of

seen before. This one became the people that are okay with grooming and pedophilia and being assholes like that against the people who are the good people. This became if you are cool with

Drake, I mean, that's Conan O'Brien, standing on stage at the Oscars, and saying, and putting pedophile with Drake's name. I get that it's in the record. And then said, I'm loitered up. I get that it's in the record. I get, the lawyered up joke is above board. It's all above board.

But I'm just like, damn, this is a real, real. Yeah, it's the thing. Okay. But look, man, I'm telling y'all, I'm not going to talk about this no more. Y'all really taking the beef to heart. Y'all, Kendrick won the beef.

Kendrick got the better records. The whole thing, it's a flawless victory. But I promise y'all, these niggas don't care about y'all the way y'all care about them. Okay? I promise y'all. Like, you just can't live your life for the failure of Drake or Kendrick for the next five years. No. Some of them are going to have some number ones.

Some of them are going to have some pitfalls. just it don't make no sense to put these celebrities in this type of situation. It just don't. It doesn't. Demi Moore lost, what did you think? People want to her to win. I thought, Demi, I mean,

if y'all haven't seen the substance, it is so good, and I love the themes of it all, and just, obviously, if you followed her career, just seeing her come back in this way, and to me, it was such a powerful and meaningful performance. I did not see a Nora, so I cannot speak to that.

I am going to watch it today because after we're watching the Oscars last night, I thought, wow, I should have seen this movie. But I understand how people thought. I think the momentum was behind her. But everyone was shocked that Michaela Madison won. Mikey. No, it's Michaela. It's a real name, though. Oh, is that? Is it? Yeah. You thought I just, you just made that up. No, it's akela. But I have to be, I just apologize, guys. I apologize. You're right. That's it. It's over. So y'all don't even, don't get mad. I apologize. It's one for Rach. I, another highlight, Zoe Seldanya's speech was incredible. It was amazing.

I love, I said this a little earlier, but I just want to touch on it. I just truly am a person who's like, when you have a platform, use it for purpose. So I like when people take the opportunity to speak whatever they want to, power to truth, and talk about something that they're passionate about, whether it's related to the film, whether it's related to a moment in time. what we're going through right now. It's something personal. I really like that. I think movies, even though we all know, I am not a big movie watcher, but movies are about perspective. They're meant to teach you. They're meant to challenge you, challenge thought. They're meant to bring people together. They're meant to bring awareness. And so when they win and then they take this opportunity

to speak to those moments or call out injustices or whatever it may be, I love to see that. I really do. So I just want to honor that. A lot of talk about the Bond tribute, the Bond moment. What did you think? I didn't get it. I was like, are we up on 50 years? Is it? What are we honoring here?

The Rockley regimes. Okay, so they sold it. They sold their interests. Okay. Fine. Did I mean? I didn't understand that. Okay.

And so I honestly didn't understand the tribute. but a lot of people particularly had a lot to say about Doja Cap. Why? They didn't like her performance. I mean, maybe not. I think people forget she sings as well. I don't care about performances and stuff like that. But it was a moment.

We're talking about the Oscars. There was a lot of fodder about it. People were, and I forget that she's a singer, so I actually thought it was cool that she flexed that muscle as well and shows how multi-talented she is. But a lot of people were talking about it. A lot of people were talking about it. Well, Donnie, a lot of people have been talking about something

they wanted us to talk about. We're going to put a pin in that, but we have Mark Anthony Green, the director of Opus that's going to, that's about to join us. Hmm. Hmm.

Rachel had a great conversation. I was there as well. If we're ever looking to add somebody's higher learning. It's Mark Anthony. It's Mark Anthony. But before we get to him, Donnie, let's do a little clean up.

Let's clean something up. Get us into our nest. Clean something up. Let's do a little clean up. Don't set the tone in that way. Let's go clean up, Donnie. The tone has been set. It looks like the lawsuit against Diddy and Jay-Z by a woman accusing them of raping her when she was 13 has been dropped.

This happened a couple weeks ago, but we never fully got around to discussing it. We teased it a little bit last week. It's been dismissed with prejudice, meaning that she can't refile the suit. Diddy's attorney said that the suit being dropped is the first of many that will not hold up in a court of law and Jay-Z is now suing Tony Busby, the lawyer for the plaintiff for defamation. Yeah, your guys' thoughts on the latest revelations of the case.

Jay-Z says, I felt that Mr. Busby was placing a gun to my head that I either bowed to his demands or endure personal and financial ruin. If that wasn't enough, the rapper also alleged he lost $20 million in sports, and entertainment contracts due to the false accusations in Busby's lawsuits. So this case has been dropped with prejudice and I will

I, okay, a couple of things. Number one, we're on vacation when the case was dropped. That's the first thing. We're on vacation when the case was dropped. But there is a very valid gripe that a lot of people had with this podcast and other places. And I worked at TMZ for a long time. And it's not even so much about the outlet as much as it is about the story. When these things get dropped and or adjudicated for the accused party,

be they man, woman, white, black, whomever, it is rare that the fact that it has gone away or the fact that it has resolved itself in favor of the defendant is met, both by the public and by the media with the same fervor that the accusation or the filing is met. And we have a responsibility here to discuss the fact that an accusation was made against Jay-Z, particularly Jay-Z here. Diddy has had so many accusations that they're kind of like the wind at this point. But this was particularly notable because of Jay-Z.

And this case was then dropped. and being fair to who we are and to everything, we should note that and talk about that. Well, you're absolutely right, but also we weren't trying to avoid it. It is something that happened two weeks ago, if not longer. And obviously, this is a topical podcast, so you move on. And it really wasn't until we got a lot of pushback from our listeners that were like,

hey, you guys didn't cover it. And it's like, oh, yeah, that is something we should go back to specifically for the very reasons that you just stated, wasn't trying to avoid it. I got called out a lot of it, which is why I took issue with the way that you set the tone for this entire podcast. You're joking, you better be, but a lot of our listeners are not. And I just want to say that when the suit was filed, what I'm not going to do, and y'all can get mad at me every single time is not necessarily, and I think we've gotten better with this. I'm not going to. I'm not going to going to pick aside. But I will use, it's very timely that we had Tarana Burke on the podcast,

and I love when she talked about believing all women. I am going to believe survivors. And I love the way that she phrased it about what that means is a thorough investigation has to be done, which I will give Jay-Z credit to. Not everybody has the ability to do that. They don't have the money. They don't have the power. They don't have the attention behind them to necessarily do that. it is a shame that we live in a country where you can just really file a lawsuit and it may be frivolous. And there are repercussions if you do find a file a frivolous lawsuit and you can have recourse in other ways as we're seeing Jay Z do with the extortion suit that he filed and now the defamation case. But he also has the means and finances to do that. That is one of the problems I will say with our legal system that you can just file and then it is up to the other side to prove that it is based on nothing.

it is meritless. Would you prefer a system that's closer to what they have in the UK, where if you file a lawsuit and the lawsuit is meritless, then you have to pay the legal fees of the other party? That happens here, too. Okay. But again, your attorney or you have to make that request to file for attorneys. Well, I don't know that it's necessarily, Donnie looked this up for me. I don't know that it's necessarily a request that has to be made.

I think it's statute or a part of the law in the UK that if you file something and it doesn't go anywhere, then you're on the hook for legal fees and something. That's not the law here. For sure, that's not the law here. It doesn't just automatically happen if it is because he dismissed this case, right? I was trying to find the actual dismissal to see if he had a basis for dismissing it or if he just dismissed it. Tony Busby's obviously not going to say, hey, I filed a frivolous lawsuit dismissing this case. You're just going to dismiss it.

But I say all that to say. It doesn't mean that I was rooting against Jay-Z or we on this podcast were rooting against Jay-Z or we believed the claims that were being made. We discuss what is in front of us and what is at issue. But Jay-Z did exactly what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to fight back. I do believe that Tony Busby,

Jay-Z makes this claim that Tony Busby purposely added his name to the lawsuit because before he was listed as a letter, A or B, I can't remember. But he said that he listed him right at the start of the premiere of the Mufasa movie that his daughter was involved in Blue Ivy because it would get more attention or he'd be on the red carpet. And I do believe that that was the case.

I think attorneys play those type of games to bring attention and to add pressure to make you settle. Shout out to Jay-Z for standing in his truth that he didn't do it. And he didn't settle and he fought back. and, you know, Tony Busby folded. But I don't, I wouldn't take back anything that I said because we were... What do you feel like you said that people had took issue with? The biggest...

People thought that I was insinuating that Jay-Z was guilty when I said that everyone would rally around Jay-Z. No, I wasn't insinuating that he was guilty. What I was saying is what happened. Like, they did. Everyone would rally around Jay-Z in this situation because Jay-Z, is not just very popular. He's very influential and important

to hip-hop culture and community. So you were going to see radio stations. You were going to see media. You were going to see the way that things are covered. And also, can I say something else about that? People were going to rally around Jay-Z because this is counter to the reputation that he's had for a long time.

So people are not going to believe this about him. That's all I was saying. All I was my, my conversation, what I was talking about, was more for Tony Busby. Being that Tony Busby, if he is going to play this type of game, he's not playing it with Puff. He's not playing. He's playing it with someone who is really meaningful to people and who people are going to rally around, give the benefit of the doubt to, and turn around and go, Tony Busby, you better have your shit together. To me, something like this comes out, I look at it, I look at what's in the filing. this was always hard to believe, just to be honest with you?

No, it's absolutely. This was always hard to believe. Shut the fuck out. So I just automatically believe that- I'm not, I'm not fucking what you know you did. But a lot of people are going to take what you say and run with it because they love to do that. When I am talking about particularly a black man,

but to your point to what you're saying, I think it's even more... I think people were mad about the lyrics. I'm going to speak to that, but I just want to say to your point, what I thought made it even stronger and why I was, was important for you to say that is because we had just seen people do it with Diddy. When Cassie filed her lawsuit, Diddy said it's absolutely not true. People rallied around them. And then the video came out.

And then it changed. So we are quick in humanity, society, culture, whatever you want to call it, to rally around the person who has been influential, who's been a public figure, who people admire for various reasons. They did not believe Cassie. They may not have rallied around. I don't, literally. I don't think people I don't think people rallied around

Well they dogs casting I think a lot of people Docts Cassie There's always going to be some of that But I I think when The Puff stuff came out I think there were a lot of people

That went I think that's somebody that's capable of all of that Just because of Think about some of the stuff Puff has been accused of in the past Think about the stories that you heard think about going to somebody's and you know Jay-Z

had the situation in the nightclub with the knife, all of that stuff granted, right? But think about some of the stuff that you had heard about Puff and stuff that people had said about Puff. I do think, I don't think there were too many, not in the way that way. Nothing close to what Cassie was saying was it was like, whoa, that was more detailed,

brought in other people, long history. It was, I mean, it wasn't like a one-off thing of what some of the things we'd seen before. But back to your original thing, what I think people got on me the most about is I said that as a lawyer who is bringing this case, I think that one of the things that he would do is go back and search into Jay-Z lyrics and try to use that to paint Jay-Z as a certain person to attack his character. I still stand by that. I think that is a tactic that a lawyer would do. I'm not saying that I'm looking at it and believing it.

Maybe the way I brought it to the table, people thought that, but that's not what I was saying. My purpose was they're going to do everything they can to try to paint Jay-Z a certain way to build up their case. Right. Yeah. Well, it's done. Not for Tony Buzz because he's got these defamation. The judge ruled certain statements are out, but certain statements are still in. So that's moving forward.

And so we'll see. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply.

Services not available in all areas. Did you know about one in three people with Plaques psoriasis may also. develop psoriatic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, guselcomab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis.

Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about trimfaya, including important safety information. I want to say something real quick, something that happened, that hasn't happened to me in a long time. we'll get to some more stuff here in a second. But so Rachel and I and Kalika and Willie.

Willie. Okay. I'm just making sure is that, is that okay? Page Six put out something. Oh, did they? Yeah. Are they all up in your business? We went to the macro party.

Now look, the macro party was great. We had fun. We had a lot of fun inside the macro party. Shout out to macro. Macro is one of the most important companies making content, like green lighting black writers and directors' dreams in the city right now. Shout to Charles and everything that they're doing over there. It's a great party.

A lot of people in there saw a lot of friends. I got slammed. Did you? We got slammed getting into it. I've been slammed in a long time. I don't know if people know what being slammed me. So it's one of the, because it's a, important. I tell a quick back story here. When I first came out to L.A., me and my brother

Gibral went to a club. I was slammed at the door. Okay? Okay. I think this was opera on Hollywood. We get there, and they're not going to let us in this bitch. Jabriel is somewhere laughing at this bitch right now, because I wasn't aware of bottle service. Maybe I've told this story on the podcast. No. I didn't know that bottle service existed. People are going to laugh at this and maybe I was wrong, but like I, coming from Baton Rouge, I didn't know that bottle service was a thing. That's interesting. You'll have clubs. We do have clubs. Let me tell you what happens in Baton Rouge clubs. I'm sure that there are bottles and tables, but I had never bought one. Okay. So this is like 2005, 2006. Like, in Baton, I had never, in Baton Rouge,

you go to a club, at least when I was growing up, there were tables there. Like, and anybody could sitting there. And you were sitting them only when you weren't dancing. You sit in the club at the thing for a break. Oh, wow. That's why you sit there. And the dance for and the bar is where the party is happening. You walk around, you walk around, you walk around. You spend so little time sitting partying when I grew up that I didn't spend all my time standing or sitting at the table. It wasn't a thing. We were doing it back then. There you go. So I didn't know what bottle service was. we get to the door, the dude's not going to let us in. Gibral goes, hey, we'll buy a table.

And I'm like, hmm, not a table. Okay. And the guy goes, yeah, tables going. This was the number. It's not very expensive. He's like, table's going for $500. I was like, nigga, what? Remember, this is before you got any bread.

I was like, nigga what, are you crazy? Jibril pulls out his credit card. Remember, he's from Manhattan. Oh, I didn't know. he had been living in the Manhattan. He pulls out his credit card. He chose, I'm looking at this nigga like, nigga, you're dumb. We're going there, we sit down, they bring all the liquor

out. I don't know anything about this. Like, I promise you, he's going to, the girls start coming to the table. I'm like, like a moth to the flame. The whole thing, right? The whole nine, whatever. But then after that, I started playing basketball in the gym, and I met Devereon Anderson. I met. I met my man,

I met Sean Dickerson, I met Vic, I met all the guys Mark Tung, Franz. I was hooping with them, I met all the guys from made entertainment. I've never had a problem

in L.A. after that. And then TMZ happened, right? I go to a place, I'm good. I'm at their table. These are my guys, some of the nicest guys unless you're trying to get in the club

and you ain't up to par. Some of the nicest guys you ever want to meet, right? So I've never had problems. I would say since 2009, 2010, I had juice. And then after TMZ, you go places you get in. We got slammed outside of the macro party. Did we not?

Humbolded. Humbled outside of the macro party before we got in. But we shouldn't have been. The expectation was there. It's not like we tried to get in off the strength. No. We have been able to do that before. We have been able to.

Remember Oscar's three years ago? We pulled up to the party. Oscar after party, we pulled up to the party, and we brought seven people in that bitch with us. So it's not like, but it was funny going back to the age of getting slammed because... You handled it well. Because, I just, it was fun because like, okay, so my manager ended up, my manager who was with MADIA, shout out to Arronday Garrett.

We sent his people out and they brought us in. Because I need y'all to understand, bad as a client. This is why we thought this This wouldn't be an issue I'm with the running under M88 So it Bring this out, boom, you have no problem I knew that we eventually get in that bitch

But being slammed is funny Because there's a whole narrative In being slammed It's funny First, you're there It's like a whole It's a story You get there and

Tell them what they said Because they were smart Okay, macros, black brown. Black brown. They had a white public, looked like white publicity company at the door. For this reason. It was a couple of different people there,

but they didn't have nobody that's going to go, oh shit, I'm going to recognize you from that, come right in the door. Smart. They're doing a smaller party this year, the whole nine. Beautiful party at Macro.

This has to do with our feeling about getting slammed, okay? and I had talked to my management earlier in the day and they were like, are you going to be good? And I was good. But it was funny. So this is the first thing.

First act in the play is, you're not on the list. That's the first act of the play. And what does she say? So I go up and I'm like, hey, Lathen, van. And she goes, okay, Lathen. She goes, Sana?

See what I mean? They knew who to put at the door. They go, Sana? And I'm like, no, not. Sana. You're Lathen? I'm like, yeah. So you're Sana Lathen? And I'm like, you're saying Sana. No, that's not me. I'm Van Lathen plus three. Yeah. No, that's not me. So you're not on that. That's the first emotion of getting slammed. It's the worst feeling for your name not to be on a list when it's supposed to be. It's the worst emotion of getting slammed. Okay. The second act of getting

slammed is people that you know walking in. But first, to end Acts 1, they said, we're going to need you to step inside and go back there over there and wait, like cattle. There was a dungeon. At least it was hidden. There was a purgatory for the slammed people

so that they wouldn't be on the street. They said, call, you need to call somebody so they can let you in. Let you in. By the way, everybody that was in the slam people, purgatory ended up getting in the party. For sure. So everybody was, we all had a good time.

So we went to the dungeon, right? then second act Rachel is right it's like who can you call you calling people you haven't talked to in a while right it's like god damn because you're trying to get in this bitch because you don't want people to see you getting slammed I leave at all right come outside who do I see

fucking Matt Barnes fucking all these other people they walking in that's the second act of slam humbling the third act is the best part by this time I go over to my man Nick and his sister Ava Duvonnei or on the other side.

Ava is an actual celebrity. So I'm thinking maybe I can walk in with Ava, get Ava to walk in with us. I go over there, Nick's standing there. Third act of slammed. People behind the thing. And now you're in communication with security. And this is my favorite part of it getting slammed.

All right, big fella, look, can't have you standing right here, though. why don't you move on to the side? You're going to be good? Being moved by security away from the people who are actually getting into the club. Very important in getting slammed.

Hey, man, we can't have nobody standing right here, okay? Hey, back up. I'm like, God damn, it's 2004 again. So did they move us over there? And I come back and we're now out of the overflow area and I got to come back to Kalika, Willie, and Rachel

and tell them. Because he was like, I got this. Ava's on, Ava neck there. I'm going to decide. Let me go by myself. Let me handle this. Like, Ava's like a, like, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, to the, to, to the, to the macro party. And by this time, you know, the cowboy had, I almost started to take the hat off, but I was being defiant.

The cowboy had people who are walking by like, man, what's up, man, how are you doing? Man, what's something? Like, what's good, nigga? The fuck, you got a plus one? Like, you're trying to get in this bitch. At least can my friends go in? I'll take the fucking hit and go home. Slammed.

Slam. Slam. I want to shout out my young G. Harrison. Shout out Harrison, who works with OG. Shout out Harrison from Matt. macro. Yeah.

Harrison comes over. He goes, oh, vain. This is the last part of slammed. The relief. The stages of being slammed. The stages of being slammed. Harrison comes over. Van.

Wow. Wow. So happy to find you. I work with OG. Yeah, you're fine. You're good. Just staying here for one second. We're going to, I'm going to come back.

A lot of things are going on right now. People are getting in and stuff like that. You're good. You're good. I completely and totally got you. You're great. At this point, I'm six text messages in. Shout out to Swoop.

I'm texting Swoop. I'm texting Nick. I'm texting whoever because I don't like the feeling of being slammed. Harrison comes over. And then it was probably about another 10. 10 minutes before we were able to get in that bitch. But then I'm inside and it's all great. It's all good.

How long you think we waited out loud? 30? Do you think it was that long? Oh, it was. I had to go to the back. It must have been because I had to go to the bathroom. And I was like, sorry, guys, I got to try to run ahead and go to the bathroom. Yeah.

So. But we did, it was worth it. It was great. It was a great party. There is, of all the parties you could go to on Oscar week, the macro party to me is by far the best one. It is so much love in the room, man. It's so much love in the room. You're seeing so many people.

It's very amazing. I had not been slammed in a long time. I literally have been walking past place. So where people have been like, hey, Van, come on in. Just come on in. Like, I got you set up. I said that you said, but being slammed? Yeah.

It was fantastic. It was macro party or the gold party, which clearly we're never going to get invited to. Oh, no, that's happened. We're never, that's never happening for us. I had somebody to hit me up. Shout out, I'm not the name of saying, Van, you hit the gold party? Like the gold party, I'm like, that's not happening.

Yeah. I'll never be happy. All right. All right. There are two more. nice, long, robust... Ooh. We had a great

interview with Mark Anthony Green, who is the director of Opus, movie and theaters right now. Got to go see it. Right now. I have to go see the movie. Two things. A couple of leftovers we're going to touch on. We are going to touch on, definitely. Some of the things surrounding

what's going on politically, Zelensky in the Oval Office, we're going to touch on the tragedy that happened in Baton Rouge with a young man that passed away and lost his life at Southern University, my alma mater. I'm gathering more information about that. And Thursday, Friday's podcast, I'm going to have what I believe to be a much better understanding of what's happening and what's going on there. Some people on the ground there are giving me some information.

It might even have a big interview for you guys surrounding that case. That is a massive, unthinkable tragedy, avoidable tragedy. We will be covering it here on higher learning and furthering the narrative of how to keep young black men and women safe on HBCU campuses on campuses everywhere. A little bit of a culture-heavy podcast. This time will give you some more politics and stuff on Thursday. We're going to get to our interview with Mark Anthony Green, the director of Opus, right? Now. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech.

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Soitgreen.com. All right, let's get into it. You guys, Oscars were yesterday, and we are blessed enough to have a filmmaker in our presence right now. It has a brand-new movie out right now.

The filmmaker's name is Mark Anthony Green. The movie is Opus, which we saw. What a cast in Opus. I know. Thank you. Like, what a cast. This is your debut movie.

Yeah. And you were able to secure, hold on for a second. Get out. You got I know. You got I.O. John Malcovic. By the way, I.O., if you're listening to this, it's just first name. That's how we, you're to that point, sister. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You say I.O. We know. I think she might need to just drop the last name and go full, you know, seal. Bro, I'm fucking with that. Yeah. Yeah. I just, the talent is there.

The talent is crazy. I don't know that the ego is there. She's too cool for that, but. I love to hear that, though. She seems so much. She seems that. She seems that way. So I love that. She seems that way. So I love that that's really the case. Julietette Lewis. Mary Bartlett. Now, you might not recognize the name, but let me tell you something. I love Murray Bartlett. White Lotus Season 1.

The best. The Last of Us. I just watched White Lotus season one, not too long. This guy's fantastic. Amber Midthunder. Legend. Real legend. Real legend.

Legend. And the music, Nile Rogers and the Dream. Yeah. The story. You miss them, folks. Okay, tell me out. Tony Hale. Okay, yep.

A real legend. Uh-huh. we have well I won't give away the cameos yeah but yeah don't give away any accent Stephanie Suganami

who's like you know we called a rookie at a year but this is like her first big role but she absolutely absolutely kills

and then a bunch of actors that live in New Mexico like you know well I won't give them away but it's yeah the cast could have been better lots of surprises

in the movie thank you I talked to the resident movie experts here at the Ringer, Amanda Dobbins and Sean Finnessy. And they didn't, they told me their overall thoughts about the movie, but they didn't tell me about

the twists or some of the surprises or anything like that. Before we get into the film itself, which I enjoyed, this is your first movie. Yeah. Your first feature. You're coming from being a GQ writer. So tell people a little bit about your journey from writing for print

and with GQ and all of that stuff to be in the film director. I mean, I think people want there to be like a strong, sorry, I keep hitting the mic, y'all, but there's like a strong correlation connection, but there really isn't. Like,

but I don't want to just lie it because it's convenient. Like, I always wanted to be a writer. I always wanted to make films since the fifth element came out, to watch the fifth element, with my... Multi-pass. Yeah, yeah.

I was just as a kid, I was like, holy shit, this is the most... Corbin? Corby, my man? Man. What, or like the casting in that movie with, like, the mixed black women with the freckles as the stewardesses or, you know, what's this in the Unitar? Chris Tucker. What I think of his character, Ruben. What the name of the character was?

Ruby Rod? Ruby Rod? Yeah. Ruby Rod. Ruby. Yeah. Corby, Dallas. Yeah, Corby. But, like, I just looked at that.

And again, I was young. This is that weird thing where I was so young. I had never seen Die Hard. I had never seen, like, the movies that people were... Your first Bruce Willis was the fifth element. I wonder how that changes things. You see what I'm saying? Like, that's one of those where, like, if you don't see...

People didn't really like that movie like that. But if you didn't see... all of the other movies and you're a kid. You're like, this is the best thing I've ever seen before my entire life. And then when I was 19, I entered into GQ. I was writing for them in school.

I went to Morehouse. And was a terrible student, but I was writing for GQ and Fader and Spin magazine, RIP to Spin and a bunch of other joints. And then when I graduated, I was a writer at GQ. I started working on Opus six years ago.

I made my first short, eight years ago. So for me, this doesn't feel like this has been the thing I've been working on for almost a decade. But I think

because I was doing profiles and stuff, some people, they're like, oh, you jump from this to this, but it's not really how I feel. Is that where the idea,

because it's such an interesting concept in the way that you tackle it. And I'm wondering if doing features at GQ is kind of how you developed this idea to do this, the story in this way and go into some of these things? The honest answer is no. Okay. But what it did do is it helped me, you know, Opus is not about being a writer in a magazine.

It's not about media. But no more than like he got game is about basketball. But the basketball and he got game is very authentic. And that was Spike's intention, right, to make a basketball. basketball film that had real basketball on it. So I was able to make sure that, like, you know, it looked right, the dynamic was right down to the little details. But the film itself is really about tribalism.

And that I think is something that GQ editor or not, we all kind of have a front row seat to, unfortunately, you know? Talk to us about tribalism a little bit. Like, what are you, what are your thoughts on it? I like it. I think you like tribalism? You're tight. You're tight.

Again, I'm very happy to be here. Tribalism to me, I think I know why you like it. I think that one, the tight thing about being an artist is you don't have to have the answers. So I don't pretend or posture like I have the answers. I wanted to make a film that was extremely fun, first and foremost. Then I wanted to make a film that was fun enough. that hopefully we would have a conversation after and talk and to feel your way through it, which has been happening, which has been like, I'm 36 in my 36 years.

I think this has been like the honor of a lifetime to have that idea, to see it all the way through, and then to see people have those debates and those conversations. Like, it's a deeply emotional feeling. But I promise the movie's very fun. And tribalism, to me, you know, it's like we've hit this all time. I'm high of, you know, my guy is bigger than your guy. If you like my guy, then you can do no wrong. If you dislike my guy, then you can do no right.

And we are at this, and it's a global pandemic. This is not just an American thing, though. Holy shit, is America riddled with it. But I think it's taken a lot of intelligent discourse away. I think it's taken a lot of safeness, originality, individualism, provocative thought. I think that is kind of eroding society. So I chose a pop star and pop music and even crafted the film like a pop record to feel good because that felt like a way to bring us to the table.

And to have a big cast, to, you know, A-24 have been great partners. Like to make this thing feel despite the fact that, you know, we shot it in 19 days and didn't have it. It's crazy. No director has as much money as they want to have. But, you know, we wanted it to feel desirable and glitzy so that people would come to it so that hopefully they'd have this conversation. You say you had a front row seat to it, unfortunately. Yeah, you do, too, though. I think.

Okay. I think we all do. Wow. Because to me, it's bigger than just entertainment, right? Agreed. I think that one thing that I love about this pod, you talked about, Sean and Amanda and two people I love. But like, you know, you guys come in here,

I don't know, twice a week. How long are you? Twice a week. Yeah, I'm locked in. And so y'all, y'all come here twice a week and I feel like, you know, you pop shit. You say what you genuinely think, what you genuinely feel. And I think whether I disagree with you or not,

because of the place is coming from, I do think that I not only do I become a more interesting, thoughtful person, but I think everything becomes more interesting and thoughtful. But, you know, shout out to whoever created this, I guess Bill, but like there are very few.

It was him. Yeah, shout out to Bill. Very few places where I feel like... He did it out of guilt from growing up in Boston. Well, he'll never get over that. Yeah, you'll never get over that. But, like, yeah, I don't know. I just think that it's, I think

we're going the wrong direction. And I do think things are getting worse. Now, let me ask you something. When I say that I enjoy tribalism, what do you think that I mean by that? I thought that you meant like, well, first of all, you're a young black man from Louisiana

and you wear that on your sleeve. So there is, you know, words are vast and have multiple meanings. And so there's a type of tribalism that's like, I take where I'm from and who I am with me. Yeah. That's what I thought you were saying. Yeah. What I was criticizing is more

which I know, again, participate in the thing y'all make, so I know that you don't do this at least professionally. I don't know Van personally. So Van does a wild shit. Yeah, Van does a wild shit in the future. I do a lot of wild shit.

I can't stand on that. Yeah, I can't stand on that. You know what I mean? It's a lot of people with their arms around people in photos and you're like, I'm just best of you. Hey, can I be real with you? Yeah. See that right there?

Uh-huh. He just hit on something. Tell me. This is why I don't take a lot of No, it's real. With famous people. It's very real. Okay?

Like, I took one photo. If you guys look, you know, we go a lot of places. I like, you know, I know a lot of people. But if you look, the only pictures you'll see up on my shit is a couple pictures. One with, like, actual friends, core, Tommy, all of those people. And then I had to take this picture with Sugar Ray. Oh, yeah, you did do that really. Well, there are certain people you go down with the shit.

Yeah. Like, I took a picture with Sidney Porte. He's the only person I've ever asked for a photo. And I'm like, if Sidney Porte ain't getting trouble. If they find out some shit about them, I got to live with it. I'll stand on it. You know what I'm saying? I'll stand on.

You know what I'm saying? It's fucking raising the son. I got to live. But you know what we got to do? We got to start doing the Kiana. You see the way he takes photos with the hands straight. With the hand straight? The hand straight.

We have to come up with this. You see that? That's like us being like, I didn't ask for this. Exactly. We do this. We'll do this. Like, hey, we take a picture like this. Yeah.

This means like, like, hey. We're in the picture. Yeah. But I don't know this. Yeah. I just, somebody RSV peed me. I was in the neighborhood. I showed up.

Every picture, we just came up with some new shit. Every picture you see me, I'm going to start taking celebrity pictures, but I'm going to do, I don't know this, Nick. We don't know. It's a good picture. I enjoyed the thing that he did. I don't know this. There's a lot of people in that Epstein dot that just went to a party.

Yeah. And look now you and the dot. Imagine this. That's very true. Imagine somebody comes to you and goes, hey man, we say we're going to the Maldives. We can't go. Fuck. Why?

Why can't we go? to the Maldives. We can't go because our plane got fucked up and I was there's no flights going there right now. We're going to go. Cool. A couple hours somebody calls you, hey, I found a plane. Yeah, I know a guy

who knows a guy. Yeah. Who has a plane. This plane for some reason is like, you know, going to Thailand a lot and and like and like we can actually use

the plane. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For real, it's like a, are you serious? Yeah, we can use the plane. You get on the plane, you go to Amadeef, you have fun, you come back. Next thing you know, you're on Satan's plane. Yeah, but it can happen to you. Before you know, you're getting a photo release from Netflix. Right.

I would definitely be on the play. Yeah, like what? Nick, did you just say you would definitely be on F's plane? No, what I'm not, Fstein. See, you're putting words. No, no, no, don't fall for it. Don't fall for it. You're putting words.

You're putting words. This is going really well. That would be wonderful. This is going really well. I don't like this tag team. I can be so gullible sometimes that I'm like, sure, let's just, this is great. You don't assume that, but I will say anyone who owns a plane I'm suspicious of. I think that that's a good rule of thumb.

Not that you're instantly bad because we all would love to own. I actually wouldn't know what I wouldn't. No, I wouldn't want it. But you know what I'm saying? That level of wealth, I'm sure it's cool. But if you own a plane, it's definitely one of these, unless we really know one of them. So I was going to say this. We'll come back to a movie in a second.

I believe in tribes, but I also, as much as I believe in tribes, because I think that there's safety in tribe, a lot, also believe in treaties, which I don't think that people believe in anymore. And when I say I believe in treaties, this is what I mean. To me, a treaty is the most, I think we make a million small treaties in society all the time, even the decision to wear deodorant. It's just, hey, I don't want to offend you. These are little small things that we do to make living amongst each other easier and more palatable. I think that the problem that I get to is not about your tribe. It's about when you, it's about the supremacy that comes from that.

Yes. When you refuse to make small, small, incremental concessions to people in order to live in better societies with them. I would even say where we've gotten. I love that point. Not only are we not even willing to make those concessions. we are no longer allowing space for you to do your thing. Right.

Despite the fact that it does not change. It's not a consent. It doesn't affect my shit at all. And I think that it is through like logistical things, advances in technology, whatever, it has become so much easier to attack somebody. Yeah. It has become so much easier to galvanize for good. And low leverage, too, because you never have to see it.

A hundred percent. And for Barry. So it's like, I think that, you know, what James Baldwin said, love has never been a popular movement. And I think that not to get here in like the first five minutes of the pot, it would be like, we need to love each other more. But there is like a thing that's missing.

And I think I made this film because it felt like we were going in the wrong direction. And though I started it six years ago, the best case scenario would have been that this thesis that I had would be irrelevant three years after I started it or less relevant and it became more and more and more and more

and fucking more relevant and I you know it's I hope that my grandest hope with the film is that people will watch it and and it They had a good enough time to where they don't run away from each other, but we'll at least talk to.

I overheard somebody. My, like, dream is you're in the bathroom after the movie, and you talk with a stranger about it. And I saw it happen at the Egyptian, and I almost cried. That's amazing. I was like, movies. Movies. Movies.

What did they say? They were like, it was funny. They, you both have seen the first. Okay, so. But the audience might not have, so don't give it. You might not have seen the film. Oh, man. I think I'd give it away.

Long story short, they talked about, is that possible and why the end happened, the ending? I don't think it's like a sport to be like, the ending is something happens at the end. Yeah, like, you know, you signed up for that. But, and they had to come. conversation and then they introduced themselves to each other. And I was, I, I like had, sorry, this might be TMI, but I was at the urinal at Finnish Ping and I was just standing there because I didn't want to turn around and they'd be like,

oh, you made it. And then I just was standing there. There you go. It's just one of those more. Shout out to the Egyptian. Oh, I love that for you. I'm so glad that you got that. Yeah, it was cool. I hope I get it like two million more times. I'm sure you will. I'm sure you will for sure. Okay, I know we keep talking about tribalism and all of that, but I do have one more thing. You said you're a fan of it for whatever reason. Do you think, you said you like tribes? Do you think that it's a problem that we have too many tribes? Like there's too many and it adds to some of the problem, right?

And then I would say that if you do believe that there's too many and you do believe that it's a problem, what do you think adds to it? Like I would say, for example, we have access to so many different things. There's so many different communities that we build that there's so many different tribes, which adds to the reason why we're not making space for each other. I don't think there's too many. I know you're directing them. I don't think there's too many. I'll up for everybody.

Yeah. To me, it's, you know, like, I'm a member of many tribes. I'm a filmmaker. So there's that. But what I think is interesting is when you're a member of two tribes that are warring. That's the very interesting thing. Like Chappelle had that joke where he was like... Blacks and Asians?

No, nope, nope. He did have that joke, though. Yeah, he did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He had a joke when, I didn't watch Seinfeld, but the guy, what's the Michael Richards? Yeah. Kramer. And he goes up and he says, nigga, and he like, and so Chappelle's joke, which you should never repeat a comedian's joke.

But he was like, man, as a black man, I was really hurt. hurt and fend it. But as a comic, I was like, damn, that's a bad set. Yeah. Hang in there, Kramer. You know what I mean? And you're like, and I think it's way easier to hold space for the other side when you belong to both. Because you can sympathize, empathize, you can do both. And you're like, yeah, I get it. And I can see both sides. I think it's the lack of seeing the other perspective or even being open to the fact that there is another perspective. Yeah. That is the problem. But I I think tribes are great.

You know, it's very human. 100%. So I want to ask you a question. I was having a conversation with someone. I mentioned that A was in this movie. And they were, first of all, talking about how fortunate you were to be able to get her to be in the movie to be able to work with her because she's just so smoking hot in her career right now. Yeah. She's at that level where people are clamoring and waiting for the next thing that she does.

and so super interested in her trajectory. And they were trying to figure out who she was. It was just an interesting conversation. They were like, is she the black man Ryan? Is she the black this? She's the black dad. And it was just like, and I was listening to the convo. And I don't know why, but I was offended.

I get it. You should have been. She was like, oh, she's a black man, Ryan. No, she's more like the black Julia Roberts. No, she's more like the black this. She can do comedy and stuff like that. I was offended. Why did that offend me?

I know. One, I think it's offensive. Because if she were not a black woman, they would be like, oh, maybe she's the next blame. But in a world where we're open, people compare Timothy Shalamey to Leonardo Caprio. Yeah. But I do think, and I'm a huge fan of Timmy's, on and off the field, I'm a big fan.

Yeah, you like him. I like what he's about. I like when he's pop up shit. I like when he's got his shit on. I understand. And I think it's an acquired taste. And I'm pro-Temmy tribe. And I leave space for you to be.

I'm pro- I'll leave space for you to be on the line. And if you go on to the other side, I'm here for you and I leave space for that. Justin Timberlake, 2011. No. To where it's not there. You're just in, speak true.

Yeah. Just in Timberlake, 2011, too, we like, all right, we still feel. Fuck with you. I remember, you know what I first started to get, not even close. With Justin Timmolake on suit and tie, looked at Jay Z and went,

get out your seat, hove. I was like, get out your seat. Okay. I was like, get out of your seat. That's not too. You're asking Jay Z to get out of seat. You get out your seat. Yeah.

But I think we give Timmy space to be Timmy, and the conversation isn't so much, okay, I need them, I need to know he is the next. white, whatever. True. He can be his own thing. And because this isn't a surprise,

but Hollywood is such an unimaginative arena. That when people put you in a box so that they can understand it, then you have to break out of the box. I think I was talented enough to do that.

I also think that a lot of those comparisons are too small for her. So then you're like, not only did you feel like you had to put this very talented artist in a box, but like, I never hear people compare her to Ben Affleck. Ben Affleck, Argo won Best Picture. I think Iyo's going to be an incredible director. I think she is incredible.

But like I think she will be, she'll make films in that way. And then she'll go and work with a David Fincher and make a, you know, smash. And then she'll, you know, whatever. and then do some shit that Ben Affleck's never done. They also both are Boston, you know, just trying to help people out. But I don't know that we need that. Sometimes it's like, like, who would you compare Frank Ocean to? And we don't feel like we need to do that in music, right?

But we feel like we have to do that in film. And I just think it's lazy. And I hate it because I feel like to your first point when you say, It's, we do it with blackness. I think when you start having the conversation of who would you compare her to, then you're already, you should realize, well, you're doing that because she's doing something so remarkable. Maybe she just stands alone by herself. Maybe she just is the thing.

Why wouldn't that be the conversation? Were these your friends? Those people I know. Ben is rich. So when you hang out with rich people. I'm so glad you said that. Yeah, Van is rich. I mean, the reality is, listen, I'm like, I mean, I'll be honest with you.

The conversation that I was having, look, I'm like the place, I am the guy that literally sometimes people go, okay, here comes van. Because when you say something like that, I'm going to be like, ah, y'all shouldn't be talking like that. Yeah, yeah. I don't mind being that guy. I'm going to be like, when you say that, I'm going to be like, honestly, I think doing this is part of the reason why we don't have more. where black film penetration doesn't go deep. Yeah, for sure. Because I think that you look for places to pigeonhole people.

I think this is bad. And then we got out of conversation. The conversation doesn't offend me, though. Your superpower is that you'll say the thing that we all say, you'll say the thing in private, that people say they say in public. Yeah. Yes. And that I think we all not only appreciate about you,

but we know that you're out here running around. But I ruined that conversation, though. Yeah, I did. Everybody was having a nice time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, I don't like that. But you also made them think. Terrible dinner guests.

Hopefully the next time someone has that conversation, they think, oh, this is what I'm doing wrong. Maybe I shouldn't be doing that. Because I think that that happens way too often. And she's so different in what she's, I love to watch her. Yeah. I. I am?

I say aio? Mm-hmm. The reason, I'm going to be honest with you, the reason I do, I love to, I love? didn't correct you because I've been correcting, you know, I just, but the reason I didn't correct you is because my family, we're switching that out. And I'm like, you know, you get to a point where you're like, I know you know. And it's just like a muscle memory thing that you're working through. If the person has the muscle memory thing that they're, they're battling through, then it's like, cool. Then it, if I don't correct people on my name, my name is Mark Anthony. It's not Mark.

Oh, I said Mark. That's all right. That's all right. I was really offended. You know what? And I almost walked out. I want to talk about something about name correcting. So I was with Aldous Hodge on Friday night.

We were, uh, the Pips on the bread just eating wings. Yeah, yeah. People coming over and taking pictures with him. And he's rich. He's rich. No, Ivan is rich. No, that's not. I've been doing him.

But what I'm saying is, what I'm saying is with him, you know, I asked him, I was like, you know, I heard, you know, Ben told me that I've been saying your name wrong. Hmm. And this is literally what happens. Ben told him I've been saying your name wrong. Why didn't you ever correct me? He went. He went whatever. But I give somebody credit.

I saw Speedy. You know Speedy? Mormon. Speedy Mormon. Great interviewer. I called Speedy Norman. I saw him walking across the street in New Orleans. I called him up.

I was like, hey, brother, blah, blah. I was like, we had never met before, but we knew each other in that pair of social ways. You know each other. I said, Speedy Norman, he went, Mormon. I was like, Spiey, you're a little nigga, but he was big. You know what I'm saying? Like, Speedy went, like, correct me.

I appreciated it. I was like, it don't mean nothing if you don't. Can I say also, though, what? Speedy Norman sounds like you would get a joke off on him. And I know you weren't. I know, and he knows you weren't. But, like, we were, like, making fun of him.

Again, I think Speedy's, I'm not making fun. Speedy's super talented. Yeah, he's very talented. But that's like what you would call, like in high school, be like, speeding Norman. He was like Mormon. Yeah. Yeah.

Let's get back to the movie real quick. So this is your first feature. Yeah. For a director that's having his first feature, there's going to be a big premiere. There's going to be a big hullabaloo. There's going to be a big deal. Hopefully.

What is your hope from, not from, I know that there's a specific hope that you have for the movie artistically. Yeah. But as a director who's getting into the game, having your first feature, what's the career hope from it outside of just like the overall success of the movie? This is my first movie. What do I want it to say? I think that I'm, if I'm not answering your question, correct me.

But I had so much fun. When I made this short, I spent, I went into debt making a short. I damn didn't went into debt making an opus. But I went into debt, making this short, and I never had had that much fun. It was the most stressful thing in the world. You hear this, and you're like, oh, there are people that you find out, most people, you find out is this really what you want to do? Because if you don't want to be a director, this is not really what is going to make you wake up in the morning.

I think every director would recommend don't do it. Because it is an unhealthy profession. You've heard directors talk about it. that more openly where you're like this is deeply lonely feel most directors get divorced five and six times one guy told me

if you don't start out as one it will turn you into an asshole oh be careful well I hope I yeah I hope that doesn't happen he said one guy told me he was like think about this is a very high profile director he was like think about

being in charge of so many different things wearing so many different hats. And all you want to do is tell a story. He's like, what happens is you start getting to a point to where it gets difficult not to direct things in your life. To talk to people super bluntly about what you need. And he's like, the biggest thing I have to do as a director is sometimes just tell people to deal with it. And he goes in on a sense.

you have to get to where you're going, but he goes, in life, that's the last thing you want to. He's like, I had to pull back. He sounds like he needs a black woman in his life. He ain't got, he's not, I assume he's not married to that. That's a little past.

Yeah, yeah. But anyway, to your point. I'm saying, yeah. So, like, for me, the biggest win is to make the next one as quickly as possible. Mm. I, I wake up every day.

last night I missed the Oscars because I'm working on the next thing. Like, I didn't go to, you know, the parties and didn't watch the, I watched the clips. But I'm saying like that to me is, it's the work. And then the reception is, you know,

I don't think you should make anything that's public that you put out if you don't have like an intention for it. So there's an intention there. But it isn't, the purpose of it's not why I wake up in the morning. Right.

You know? It's the best job in the world for me. And nothing has made me feel more challenged. Like it checks all my curiosities. Like, yeah. So for being,

I always have one foot there until I'm there and then both feet are there. And everything else is like, you know, I hope I'm, doing a good interview. But there's part of me that is working on the next thing. Dan,

you're a co-host. Yeah. He's doing a great interview. I feel like he says that to everybody. No, he doesn't. No. Not true. I don't know he said it in all before.

It's not true at all. No, yeah, you definitely don't say that. In doing your research, which I'm sure a lot of research went into to making this film, was there like a particular cult that you looked at to build this one?

that we see? And was there a particular person maybe that you also built this off of that people would jump ship for? For me, the religion part was so important to have,

but I hated the research. Because, one, I'm not a hyper-religious person, I'm a spiritual person, but not a hyper-religious person. And then, but I believe in religion, especially where we're from, religion, especially to black people, it is such an important service

that like anything that felt like it was punching at religion as an institution or an idea, I just don't want to ever do that. But then I'm reading all of these cults and Bibles and manifestos and prophecies and all the shit to just kind of like get the language and to find ideas. And so like I just hated that.

It felt like I was putting something bad in my body. So that part of it I disliked. I wrote the meditations of level. There's a cult in the film and they're a cult level and they're levelist. And so I wrote a full, you know, text basically. So that when I made decisions, I knew what they would do. but I didn't give it to anyone because it felt I just didn't want that in the world

That's wild You created a religion I created a religion for this movie that will never go beyond the movie You don't know that, nigga It won't go past the movie You don't know that Yeah

Like it literally just the way things go That's scary Literally 60 years from now Somebody could be digging through the ash and the rubble of what used to be L.A., right? And I'm just being from you. And just find, or they're going through movies. Should I like burn it or something?

Maybe. Yeah, whatever. And then they find out and they could, that's the shit like that happens all the time. You don't know that. Good job. Yeah, well, I want, I don't. If you find this podcast and that and be like, please, I don't want that in the world. It's not my way.

I want to ask you one more question. So I have a thought. I'm going to put it to some different movies. You tell me what you think. So I saw The Brutalist. Yeah. I watched it. Three hours and 40 minutes of a laugh riot.

I've seen Nomad Land. Yeah. And I watched O'Nora. Yeah. So, you know, I watched all the movies from this year. Some of the movies are very direct. They're about something. The substance is about something.

Conclave, about something, Dune 2, about something, wicked about something. But then there's another type of movie that's routinely awarded. And it's a slice of life stuff not really going on, but kind of people just existing look at life movie. Those are your nomad lands. Those are your brutalists. to agree that's a Nora movies like that about black people are never celebrated

it to just four days and you know just one of the days is a movie that kind of gets to that and I love that film and like what it was able to do is very funny I'm so glad that it's having success but when I think about films that are awarded to that level with us

the struggle of race the struggle of sociopolitical angst biopics but when I watch the Brutalist I marveled at just how the Brutalist

isn't really about anything other than the lead character it's not when I watch Nomad Land I just always marvel I want to see movies with black people roaming just be

just when I say they don't even, you don't even have to have any reference that they're black. Just people that happen to be black doing stuff. Yeah. They do make some of those movies. I'm not going to say they don't make any of them.

But why is it very rare though? Very rare. Yeah. Like why is it hard for that movie to exist? Oh, I can. Yeah. Okay. So a couple things.

And I have a really counterintuitive take on this that I'm really glad to share here with y'all because I feel like this is the home of black counterintuitiveness. That's what we do. In making opus, it was very important to me that Ariel be a black woman.

It was important to me that she never do something stupid. She never fall when she's being chased. She never runs into the room with the boogeyman. She never has a gun and then puts it down. like those tropes right and the song the the first song

is by parliament Funkadelics the last song is by TV on the radio Lenny Kravitz makes a cameo there's like Na Rogers

and dreamed it there's a black music my cinematographer's black macro as a producer on it is a very black movie oh macro is a producer

yeah but it is not about the black experience There is a lot of black taste in the film. There is a lot of blackness in the film. And my POV as a black man, I couldn't, the way I drink that bottle of water is black.

Yeah. Right? So, to me, it is a black movie. Straight up. Now, it is very hard for Hollywood because people are so unimaginative. to see a black person in their office pitching a movie and that bias not come out. There are many conversations.

You know, again, I've been working on Opus for six years. It existed before 824. It existed before we had talent attached and trying to figure that out. There are definitely conversations that were like, we'll make the reason she isn't writing for this magazine, make that a racial dynamic. And then it gives it a purpose.

instead of a conversation about tribalism. Here's the counterintuitive take. And it's a logistical thing. So it's a bit like, you know, Booker T. Washington and W.B. Du Bois had that famous debate. Sorry, I promise I'm going somewhere. And basically, W.B. Du Bois was like a long-term, talented 10 theory, right? Talented Negro. We got a do-da-da-da-da, whatever. And Booker TWA is like, we need to have trades.

You need to eat today. We need to feed people today, right? So what I'm saying is more of a longly thought. If we continue to fight for white filmmakers to not be able to make movies about race, even if they brick it a la Green Book, a movie that felt like, you know, we all kind of commonly agreed that they missed the mark on the racial dynamic, right? If we fight for them to do that, then those filmmakers get to make movies about love and power and about the brutalist, which I really loved as a film. But when you look at your slate, you're like, cool, well, we can't only make movies about love and power and whatever.

We want to make a movie about race. And so you only greenlight as we're making less and less movies. In fighting for that thing, you're not going to push the Christopher Nolens of the world. He kind of is in his own category. He can go do whatever he wants to do and he should love Christopher Nolan. Also, Bill Simmons not liking Interstellar is crazy and I appreciate you for calling him out. It's absolutely the wrong take, Bill, you know, that I love you. But holy shit, what a terrible opinion.

Got Celtics all jammed up in his brain. Yeah, it's crazy. Crazy madden. That's crazy, crazy tape. But like, until Hollywood fixes the who's in those rooms. I want to shout out a person. I don't know this person now, but like Alana Mayo at Orion. And I thought Nickel Boys was one of the best films a year.

I thought it was brilliant. But like, until there are more execs that are in power that can see a more nuanced, thoughtful film with black people in it or see a movie like Boomerang where like everyone in that movie is black. Got nothing to do with... It has nothing to do. Critics hated that movie. Boomerang, I think still, it's the crazy rinds.

But like, watch Boomerang right now. If you have not seen that movie, which you should have seen that movie by now. But like, that movie's incredible. Yeah. It is extremely funny. Moved of Blues, nothing to do about being black. Incredible. So I'm saying...

Beautiful black people doing their beautiful black thing. These movies exist, but when just the logistics of putting a slate together, if you take away certain things and you're like, well, only, if you're saying to, let's say you were a filmmaker, this black woman, you can only make a movie about black women and the black woman experience that I as a white person understand as a black woman experience. then you're just limiting this person. Yeah. I understand the want for, you know, Steven Spielberg to not make the color purple in 2025, right? Like, I understand that where you're like, that should go to a black filmmaker.

Totally understand that. I just think that the conversation, if we want those types of films, we have to be okay. with pushing for one, we have to make more movies. We have to go see black movies, like

one of them days. Like, I think we showed up. People saw that it made money. If it makes money, that filmmaker will get to make another movie. Kiki Palmer's opportunities will get bigger and better. Issa's a force, she's going to continue to kill it. Everybody wins, right? So that's

the first step. But then I think we have to be open to the- You can't gatekeep race as a subject that only black filmmakers can talk about. It's like we can, but then this is the short term, this is the Booker T. Washington argument. We can, but if we do,

it is exponentially harder. So I'm saying it not as a moral thought. I'm saying it as a thought of strategy. As a thought of strategy, if you want the Van Lathens of the world, controversial, black, thoughtful, provocative to make something that is different. And I can only make five movies that year

where some of these big studios are making three movies, or let's say you're making 10 movies, but six of those people are wearing capes in them. If we're going to do that, which we love, truly, I truly do love. Really, I'm saying if you're doing that,

then any limitation, even if it's one that I want to see, even if it's one that I think is beautiful, a limitation is a limitation. And so it's a really, really tough thing. And I think that I feel tremendously honored to make this film, to show it to people for it, to be in theaters, to make it with a studio that really believes in me and continues to believe in me, to make it with actors that are incredible that believe in me and went on that journey with me. But there's nothing I've ever done that's harder than this. I've been homeless.

It wasn't as like, you know, you kind of have like just a handful of problems to figure out when you got no place to sleep and try and figure out it. This was the, how hard it is to make a film, it is the reason why I'm sure that person, one of the reasons why, like, you turn into an asshole because you're like, everything in life is hard. Nothing is easy. And so it's already the hardest art form to do because of how much money it takes, because of the commoner, because of the comrades. requirement. Holy shit. Do not limit black creators. Maybe that's my thesis.

Sorry if that's a long way of saying it. But like, we should not limit. I thought that was a deeply thought-provoking answer. To be honest with you, it's actually something I've never considered. My skin crawls when I see the green book directed by. Yeah. But I've never considered the other side of it. I've never considered how the constraints, the constraints that that might put on us as

creators. I've never considered it that way. It's a logistical thing and I want to be clear. I'm not saying because I'm not saying that white people should make the Green Book or that you know, they should make Black Panther

or movies about Black Panthers. I'm absolutely not saying that. I'm simply acknowledging the logistics of a film slate and how in the short term in the next 10 years, I don't see that change. I don't think.

think there's going to be an influx of people that go to the movies to where now, Paramount and all these places, they're going to make 50, 60 movies a year so that they can make black brudels. I don't think that's going to happen. And so when you're doing that, it's a two thing. Do not limit black creatives and understand that the more you tell David Fincher that he can't make a movie about X, Y, and Z, that he's going to get to make Brulis. He's going to get to make this big thing,

the big idea. And again, Ovis, we didn't spend a ton of money on the movie. So there was a freedom in that. Right? And I feel very lucky about that. Places like 824 that invest in weird filmmakers that

go and do a thing that feels like it works against the grain of traditional Hollywood understand. I think that there's single-handedly companies like that are single-handedly saving the art form, you know. But it's a tough conversation. And again, I watch Green Book. I think rehearsal is a national treasure. There are parts of the film that are amazing. But I could feel that. And I felt so not betrayed by the film, but I felt like I could never recommend that since. because you could feel them not understand the racial dynamics. And then you find out the way that they kind of misportrayed the actual black man. This is a true story about a genius. I can't fuck with that.

So like, again, I get it, but, you know, I think Booker T would argue, would make this argument. Just bringing up on the pie. We're just popping. No. It's great. It just made me wonder, and I don't know who was, obviously, a black person didn't direct Green Book, but I wonder how many

how many black voices were influential in the making of this, and maybe that's the middle ground. I see, I gotta say, that is, and you can tell one of the reasons you're successful is because that is an immediate solution. That is a smart solution. As a director,

I think the, like, nine years, 9% of us love this thing because you are the captain of the ship. And I do think that it is it would be really interesting.

You know what I thought was an interesting conversation about this? It's, and I might be getting myself in trouble, but, you know, we're here to, we're here to have a conversation. When, when, in licorish pizza, when the guy at the restaurant

he was clearly being racist and people like called PTA out for that and I did kind of I saw the their side of it right where they're like why is this in the movie there's no way that Rachel's ever seen Lickrish Pizza I know about it okay so they're behind sister right yep okay

there you swing back so so when it happened I was like oh okay I said see that side of it. Another side of it is white people do racist shit. To tell a white filmmaker

who now is, it needs to make movies with white people, because if it's a black story, they shouldn't. Right? So now your cast are going to look wider and whiter, which is the, again, I'm not saying that's what we're asking

for, but that's, we're giving Hollywood the excuse. Right? So Mark Anthony is going to work with black actors and PTA's going to work with white actors, right? So if you're going to do that and you have a movie with a bunch of white people, you mean to tell me that all these white people gathered and no one said anything racist? I don't believe that. I think it's his job, actually, to portray if that many white people gather and they didn't say anything racist, I think your movie's flawed.

Yeah. Now, does it make me feel good as a person who loves people to see someone be racist in a movie? No. But I do think that's the point. If he celebrated that character, then that's like, PTA, what are you doing? PTA goes home to a strong black woman every day. I think he understood what he was doing. Now, whether it was successful for you or not, that's an individual opinion or, you know, successful artistically, cool.

but I don't know I'm like they didn't say nothing racist in making the atomic bomb and I'm saying some racist shit nigger count how many when they were saying it it probably wasn't so it probably what is probably only like

500 niggas I would say but the other word the other word for our Asian brothers and sisters 25 30 40 50 thousand there was no you know what I'm saying now now again I'm not

If you put that in Oppenheimer, it changes the movie. And I'm not arguing for it. Again, we party. We're having a conversation. Right, if you put that in Alper. Because they still had to kill 500,000 people and that's not even fucking... And I want to be very clear.

I'm not arguing for that. I'm simply saying... I'm simply saying that... Oppenheimer, the racist guy. Yeah, yeah. But, like, I don't believe... And I'm from, you know, maybe this is whatever. I don't believe that in closed...

doors, you could have that many people gather, that many white people gather, and they don't say something that is racist. I just don't believe that. So I think we got to be careful. Also, the inverse of that is, if you do not show racism in your film, but you have, we're talking about everything else, and it's an American film, and it's all white, that to me starts to feel like propaganda because we know that's not what it really is. So if we start to take that out of film, I don't know

will that warp the perception of how we genuinely do with race in this country? And is that doing, is that making this place better? I don't have the answers. I'm just here to it. Well, you got a movie. The movie's called. Man, please go see it.

It's great. Super fun. I hope y'all enjoy it. In theaters right now? In theaters right now. In theaters right now. Mark Anthony Green. Man, it was great to meet y'all.

Thank you for joining. This was great. And in person. Thank you. Very, very awesome, man. Thank you for joining us. Sean, good recommend. Yes, my guy.

Peace. All right. Take thing caps off. But do not stop learning. I am Van Lathen Jr. And I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye, guys. That's me.

Hey, that's me. I can rock you so dangerously. You go do it. Go do it. You go do it. You go do it. Do it.