Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Analyzing the Biden–Crack Pipe Headlines and Anna Malaika Tubbs on Black Motherhood

Episode Date: February 11, 2022

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay break down the Biden administration’s harm reduction plan and conversations around the crack pipe headlines (19:08), before discussing new Dolphins head coach Mike McDaniel’s response to questions about racial identity (48:34). Plus advocate and NYT bestselling author Anna Malaika Tubbs joins to discuss her new book, ‘The Three Mothers’ (1:01:37).  Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Anna Malaika Tubbs Producers: Trudy Joseph and Donnie Beacham Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Higher learning is on. It is I, Van Lathen. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. Let me tell you something right now, guys. We are recording the podcast very early in the morning right now. Super Bowl has shaken up our world.

Rache, Rache, Rache, it is 7 a.m. Rache has a full face on because she's got a work to do. Look at this. I have a full face of makeup on. Look at the back of my head. Look, I only got front part of my head curled. Not the rest. You should go like that.

You should go like that. Yeah, that's not going to work. They only see you from front, though. What are you talking about? No, this is in person. I got to go down to radio row and interview people at Sirius XM Radio. This is for, this is for, you have to interview people from the NFL. What is this?

I wish. Sadly, we're just, we're into, we're entertainment. So, you know, like our audience isn't as concerned with, you know, the football players. It's more about the celebrity of it all. So this is Kevin Hart and the plastic, red plastic cup boys, plastic red cup. It's just the plastic cup boys. Wow. I thought it was the red plastic cup.

No, the plastic cup boys and, you know, whoever else is down there at old Radio Row. Oh, radio row with rage. Yeah, no, last night I was at the NFL honors. And let me tell you something. It is extremely challenging to interview players who didn't make it to the Super Bowl. Do you know what I'm saying? It's hard to ask questions. Like, oh, what are you looking forward to this weekend?

Are you going to be watching the game? Who are you root? Like, you can't ask those questions. When I tell you, Debo Samuel's answer to me for everything was, chilling. Yeah. Cheddar. Yeah. Chiller.

Yeah. Because he's so disappointed. Don't do interviews. Mm-hmm. Don't do interviews. Yeah. No. I mean, you know, like we got around it, but it's difficult, right?

How do you, I didn't talk to somebody about something that they're not at. Right. You know what I mean? And they want to be there. Like, my thing is the Super Bowl is an interesting thing because it's such a big world event that the whole NFL community has to show up for it, even if they had aspirations to be there or not. Like, when it's the NBA finals or any of these other things, they're series. And you don't have to come and hang around there if your team didn't make it. You just watch it from home.

You really become a fan. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah, no. But Debo Samuels and all of these guys, they're going to do the whole Super Bowl thing, even though they didn't make it. And Debo Sanuels almost made it. If you guys don't know who Debo Samuels is, he is the Swiss Army Knife,

running back, receiver, whatever from the San Francisco 49ers, who was just having a fantastic game before they hit a wall and could get past the L.A. Rams, and now the L.A. Rams are at home for the Super Bowl, which will be happening in a couple of days here. Correct. And the last time we saw Debo Samuels, he was Samuel, he was on a bench crying and OBJ was comforting him. You know what I mean?

So like then to be here, it's a totally different thing. You should ask him about that. No. Why not? If you don't want to, if I say to you, because I was respectful, I didn't say, oh, where are you watching the game? Oh, where are you? I said, are you ready for the halftime show?

what do you look you know what I mean and he goes I'm not watching the game and I go that's why I didn't ask you about the game I ask you about the halftime show I was over I was over it at that point I did ask you I'd ask you that question but you know like Travis Kelsey Josh Allen they came to play right you know what you should have done you should said something like a motherfucking yo you didn't make the game stop bitching about it man like look you know you're gonna watch that's a lie talking about you ain't go watch the game. What can you go do? I wish I had gotten to that point.

Yeah. Okay. Look, guys, a lot of stuff happened in the last couple of days. It's been a weird week. It's like a super weird week. So like for me, when we were doing a podcast, did you have, was it hard for you to decipher what the big deal of the day was? For this week. For this particular podcast.

Was it hard for you to think what was going to be the big deal of the day? I mean, there are a couple of things, but not really. You got to understand. It's a weird, it's an overwhelming week for me. You know what I mean? You're overwhelmed. How about it? What was the last time you were just overwhelmed?

I feel like you said that to me before. It's true. I was overwhelmed. I was overwhelmed in January. I'm overwhelmed in February. Right. How about that? There's a lot of stuff going on.

You have got to protect your peace when you're out here talking to Debo Samuels. This is till next time, I love Debo Samu's. Next time Debo just be like, yo. What if you were to ask me about something completely not about football? Like, yo, say, bro, you like go-carts? I like stuff like that. Just get them on the podcast.

Be like, yo, man, what's your favorite Pop-Tart? Real. You know what? You know what? A podcast space is totally different because you know you're going to sit there and have time with them. I'm like pulling you over to come. talk to me on a red carpet when you already don't want to. He only talked to me and then he, ESPN, he bounced.

You know what I mean? So it's like, you got to like, it's tough. It's tough. Yeah. Now, I get it. It's a different game. It's a different animal. But it's a same beast.

You know what I mean? Different. It was different beast, same animal. Whatever. All right. So look. But we got a big deal of the day. Yeah.

We figured it out. We do have a big deal of the day. We figured out what the big deal of the day is. And I think it's very important that we discuss this. All right. Before we do this, I want to bring Trudy in real quick. Trudy. Uh-oh.

Trudy, hold on real quick. Trudy. No, no, it's 7 a.m. Trudy's not turning on her camera at 7 a.m. She already. She made that very clear. She made that very clear. I know she's not turning on the camera.

I don't need her to turn on the camera. I'm waiting on my couch. Trudy. I want to know something real quick. Okay. Kevin Samuels has made it into the mainstream now. He's toning it down a little bit and he's coming into the mainstream. I want to know something.

Would you, would Rach, be interested ever in having Kevin Samuels on this podcast to do a Trudy's corner, Kevin Samuels. Rachel does not look amused. Go ahead. It's Trudy's Corner. Go ahead, Trudy. For the greater good of the pod, bring him on. but like I'm just okay because there have to be boundaries I don't subscribe to him I don't subscribe to his his ethos but bring him on before you before we get into all of that can you please explain to the audience who Kevin Samuels is Kevin Samuels is the man behind the term high value male. He has made a name for himself, basically, on telling women what they can and cannot reason to expect in dating.

So Kevin Samuels will look at you and be like, yo, you're a six at best. This is the type of man you should settle for. And it seems as if, from being honest with you, Kevin Samuels, made his name getting at black ladies that's how he got that's how he went viral that's why people started talking to him

you're going to see all kinds of clips of Kevin Samuels talking to guys the same way but really people didn't really care when he talked it was the fact that he would look at a black woman and tell her to lower her standards or lower her opinion of herself or lower

whatever that for whatever reason made Kevin Samuels super popular And so because we talk on this podcast, and there's been a couple of people that have hit me up and gone, look, Kevin Samuels is toning it down. He's in the mainstream now. Would you bring him on and do a Trudy's Corner, Kevin Samuels crossover?

And I was always like, no. I would never put Trudy in front of Kevin Samuels. You know what I mean? Because I don't think that's a healthy thing. But then I was like, why not I just ask Trudy if that's something she would be interested in? And why not we just see if Trudy wants to do that? If you didn't want to do it, obviously not, but I can't answer for you. So I decided I would ask Trudey on the pocket.

He's going to like, what was he going to do? Like, diagnose me. Like what? And my other thing is like, so him telling black women, you know, that they should lower their standard or him kind of being the litmus test of like what you should and shouldn't want is like crazy. So is he going to try to do that to me? Oh, I don't know. I think he would, I mean, I think if we get into the conversation,

that's kind of his thing. I think he definitely probably would, you know? You know what I mean? Yes. Huh? Well, I am not opposed to him coming on this podcast at all. But I feel like boundaries have to be in place. What we're not going to do on this podcast is open it up for him to say,

rate yourself on a scale of one to ten. Okay. Like he likes to start out the conversation. Right. You're a 50. Okay, look. See, I want to have a conversation about what he does. I don't want him to do.

Like, we don't have to play that game. I don't want to be boxed into what he considers to be a 10 or whatever. I just want to have a conversation about what he does and doesn't do. Okay. So let me tell you that worse and that's true. But I guess what people have been saying is that if we're being honest that's kind of what trudy does what strips down men no no no trudy has trudy is particular trudy has trudy has standards trudy does not strip down men like he

does what all he does is tear down black women my thing is everything that i state everything that i express is my own personal preference it's not to say that somebody with a less than perfect hairline as a less than perfect person. Like, come on. That's not what I'm saying. But see, look, let's keep it all the way real. It was, I get that. But let's be, let's have a real grown-up conversation because this is, this is what's called an acceptable double standard. Because it certainly is a double standard, right? It's an acceptable double standard. I think it really is. And there are acceptable double standards. But every time we have this conversation, there are people who try to get through the

issue by saying this is my preference, right? That's kind of what Fresh and Fit we're doing. Hey, it's just my preference. It's my preference. It's my preference. It's what it is. I know it's like that's your personal preference. But at the same time, when we had the finish line conversation about the guy at finish line, you want the guy at finish line to be on the board of finish line at 30 years old. You know what I mean? No, not a new way. You did. And again, it's that.

No, no, no, no, because we got to tell it. If we're going to tell it, we got to tell it all. With that particular situation, my first statement was, if Tamika likes it, I love it. It's just not for me. Right. And so I think that is the thing. Because to me, sometimes I think, so let's be honest with you. I really think to be honest with you, it's kind of,

the same thing. I'll be honest with you. If, if, if, the difference is, is that to me, the reason why it's unacceptable when men do it is because of the power matrix that has existed society for

forever in a day and how debilitating patriarchy and misogyny are. They're dehumanizing and belittling. And also, because when you're having that conversation about the guy finish line, I don't feel triggered because you're not talking to me. And even when I was at finish line, I'd have been like, all right, well, there's other girls.

I was never a big deal about that, right? I was when I was at Best Buy. I was like, there are plenty of girls. I used to date the girls at Best Buy who understood my life. You know what I mean? But I think that there are a lot of brothers out there that are triggered. They're triggered because they don't ever see. Lace that bitch up.

Like, I don't know. Lace that bitch up so I could wear it out, which is why you should tell the people that finish line. I say, I'll like you to be, yo, I'm a way these out, bro.

Yeah, okay, lace them up. Go ahead and do that for me, man. Lace them up so I can wear him out. So I would just think that if we brought him on, we'd have to talk about that.

But there was no way we wouldn't be able to talk about Trudy's corner and have his mindset going against Trudy's mindset, which I think would be the final boss battle for Trudy. if I'm being honest. Oh my goodness. Okay. Well, I got to go into training for this battle of straight ignorance. So let me know what's just.

It's just not the same to me. You're asking Trudy a pointed particular question. Trudy doesn't have a whole show where Trudy is telling other women or other men what they should and should not be doing. I know. I just, it's, you can't ask her a question. You can't ask her a question. No, you can't ask her a question and then say,

hold her to that same standard. Like, she's answering the question. That's not what he does. That is absolutely what he asks. I am so disgusted to be in the position of defending Kevin Samuels. But I always want to, at the sake of being the unpopular voice of this podcast, I want to always keep it a buck. This is a call-in show where the ladies call in, the people call. in and tell

Kevin Samuels about themselves and about their life and then give him license to comment on them. It is absolutely the same thing. When I tell you there's no difference, there's, we're asking,

like, like, they, like, Kevin Samuels has all of these ways that he thinks about it, but he's never just talking to air. There's always somebody on the other side of it. Correct. I totally forgot it was a call-in show. Yeah. I'll give you that.

They ask him, they say, and then he'll ask him about their life. He'll go, how much do you make, where are you, what do you do, whatever, what kind of man do you want? What kind of thing is? What do you rate yourself? From one to ten, you can't use seven. And they'll do all of that stuff. And then because they've actually subjected themselves to this, he'll sit down and he'll go hard on them. Now, once again, I think there are two things that play.

One is we don't, there's a. There's some sort of bloodthirstremen to be disrespectful on the internet. It's just, I don't know what it's, I know what it is. It's just some bloodthirst for it. So when you see a man talking to a black lady like that,

it just goes crazy. It goes nuts. You know what I'm saying? It goes nuts. The disrespecting black women is what he made his, his, his platform on. I'm open to have that conversation and I don't want him to run from that.

But at the same time, when we're talking about the sexes and boxing people and making them about their jobs or their hairlines or any of that stuff. Like, we do it tongue and cheek and playfully, but that's what we're doing. You know what I mean? Like, I just want us to own that. I just want me to own the Kevin's sad. Just own that.

That's what we're doing. Well, I totally, I totally forgot it was a call-in show. You're absolutely right. They call in. They're seeking a certain opinion. I guess my issue is the way that he addresses them and seems, and personally seems to take pride and pleasure. in the way he dresses down women.

Now, what I haven't done and what I do need to do is see how he talks to men, because I don't know. I haven't seen the other side of it. But all this to say, I'm totally open to having him come on this podcast, but I'm also not going to give him the opportunity to dress me down or Trudy down by saying,

well, as Trudy already said, we already know our number. Okay? Okay. We are, we are, you know, our number. And honestly, never on God, I am judging anybody who does, but never on God's green earth, but I call into Kevin Samuels and ask him for advice. Nice guy, I'm sure, but that I'm already not his demographic.

Yeah, I don't think so either. So look. True. We're going to do this. If, if only for the sake of intrigue. I'm a trait. I'm intrigued as well. I'm intrigued as well.

If only for the sake of intrigue, we're going to do this. I just don't. It was, I had to ask whether or not Trudy wanted to be involved in this. And if you don't want, if you don't want, if we don't want to do the toxic Trudy versus Kevin Samuels crossover event of the higher learning universe space, then we don't have to. but if if trudy wants that smoke Trudy can have that smoke First of all I

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All right. Enough of this bullshit. Let's get to the big deal of the day. Okay. So the Biden administration has denied trying to serve you guys crack. You guys basically took Joe Biden and made them

into Franklin St. From Snowfall. They deny funding programs and hand out crack pipes to prevent infection and promote racial equity. The Biden Health Department, Biden's Health and Human Services Department

was accused of being a part of a harm reduction plan and that harm reduction plan as it was memed on the internet was going to be handing out crack pipes. We saw this headline everywhere. Joe Biden is going to hand out crack pipes to people all over the place. And this looked like, well, let me ask you this.

When you see that headline, Rachel, what did you think? I thought it was a joke at first. It's like, okay, what? The president of the United States and his administration are doing what now? I'm sorry, you know, I didn't take. take it seriously. Then I started thinking about it and I was like, oh my gosh, how could this be happening? You know, like I've read I maybe read the headline and then maybe I saw like a paragraph and I was like, wait, what? What's happening? How could this be happening? This doesn't

make any sense. Why would Biden and his administration do that? That was my initial thought. Right. Until I looked into it. So when I do something, I want everybody to do this. When I see a headline like that, I don't even read the article. Okay. I go directly to snopes.com. Snopes.com. I don't know if you guys know the site. S-N-O-P-E-S-S-Nopes.com is where I go. All right.

I don't read the article because a lot of times these things don't have any articles to them because they are memed. And we're going to talk about the meaming of black people like a little bit later. All right. So I go to Snopes and Snopes is an article. It's a website where it'll tell you whether or not the article that you're reading or the headline that you're reading is true, mostly true, false, all false, all true. I go directly to that, right? And I look at the breakdown because they'll do it for you and break it down and kind of get in between the cracks of what was said and what is actually going on. So that's something I encourage everybody to do.

But let me go back to this What's what exactly is going on here So $30 million harm reduction plan There is a harm reduction plan going on It's a grant program And the grant Inside the grant there is money To purchase safe smoking kits and supplies

All right A spokesperson for HHS Originally told the Washington Free Beacon That included in these kits Could be pipes for users To smoke substances like crack Cocaine, Crystal Meth or any illicit substance.

However, when asked about this, the White House said that the reporting was inaccurate. Donnie, go ahead and give you that audio. Thanks, Jan. HHS just put out a statement clarifying around some reports that crack pipes are not going to be part of the safe smoking kits that are funded by the administration. But can you clarify for us, were they never a part of the kit or were they removed in response to this reporting and this pushback? They were never.

of the kit, it was inaccurate reporting, and we wanted to put out information to make that clear. What is in the safe smoking kit? The safe smoking skin may contain alcohol swabs, lip balm, other materials to promote hygiene and reduce the transmission of diseases like HIV and hepatitis. I would note that what we're really talking about here is steps that we're taking as a federal government to address the opioid epidemic, which is killing tens of thousands, if not more, Americans, every single day, week.

month of the year. We put out this statement, though, because there was inaccurate information out there, or I should say HHS put out the statement because there was inaccurate information out there, and we wanted to provide clarification on the allowable uses for the HHS harm reduction program. It's not a change in policy. This program, though, is focused on harm reduction strategies, including prioritizing the use of fentanyl test strips and clean syringes. And all of these harm reduction services that will be supported by these programs are, are very are intended to save lives from an epidemic that we know is devastating to communities across the country.

So it seems to me that what's going on here is a different approach to addiction and drug use in America, which is less of a war on drugs than a war on dysfunction and the health concerns and the pitfalls that people can fall into when they are using drugs. And I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. As the White House explained it, do you have a problem with anything that this harm reduction grant is supposedly doing? No, not at all. And it's not even, it might be a novel idea in the United States,

but it's not a novel idea worldwide. I mean, Canada, Spain, Australia, a lot of different countries have these harm reduction services that are proven to help with overdose, to help with the spread of disease. That's what I was trying to say. So yeah, like it's, if you look into it, it's actually proven to really be effective. Now, I get why it can be jarring to people to hear it first because you're like, wait a second, they're not trying to prevent drug use.

It's almost more of a roundabout way of like, like I said, with the overdose, with the spreading a disease with drug-related crime, with violence in neighborhoods, with needles being in, you know, like playgrounds and on, like that's the kind of stuff that this program, as I understand it, is trying to prevent. Right. Okay. So here's the thing. Cassandra Frederick Friedrich, who is the executive director of the Drug Policy Alliance,

said she compared it more to using, handing out condoms to promote wellness, bodily wellness in terms of, you know, people's lives and STDs and stuff like that. Right. To stop pregnancy. You know that people are going to have sex. So the only thing that you can do is give them the tools so that they can have sex safer. By the way, that works. I want people to pay attention to the rates of teen pregnancy over the last couple of decades in America.

I know you guys talk about the evil that Planned Parenthood is. You want to hear that from the right. You want to hear all that. When you look at Team Pregnancy, And the sharp decline in teen pregnancy is because we stopped in America acting like kids are not going to have sex. The thing that we could do is educate kids on sex, tell them what the risks were, and they provide them places where to where if they're going to have sex, they could use condoms and other situations like that. And in the event that there was an unwanted pregnancy, the woman had the right to choose whether or not she wanted to go through with that pregnancy or not. that's what was what was done.

In this situation, we have an opioid epidemic in America's heartland. We have drug use that's still existing in the communities. And the reality is that if you want to be compassionate about that, wagging your finger at those people and saying don't use drugs is not a sufficient answer. Saying, hey, we care about your state of humanity, even if you're going to do something that's unhealthy to you here. and maybe as they're taking these kits, you can actually work with a couple of people

to get them off drugs. You know what I mean? But it was nasty to me how this message went out there. And I am not doing any work or holding any water for the Biden administration. But there was absolutely zero nuance in the dissemination of this information

around social media on Instagram, on Twitter. not that there normally is, but this was like particularly, particularly devious to me the way this was put out. You mean the way that it was put out by like the Republican, like put out by the Democratic part? Like I'm confused. Like, are you saying the way that? I didn't really get this from any Democrats or Republicans.

This became, this got memed. And I saw this on the pages of people. just that I follow. Celebrities, other people like that that were putting this up there. And look, I'm not blaming them. Let me tell you what I'm talking about right here. Go ahead. No, no, no.

Go ahead. Finish that. I'll go ahead after you. What I'm talking about right here is the meaming of black people. I have a thought and it might be hyperbole, but I really believe in this. I think meaming black people in the way that they did around this. Joe Biden crack pipe headline. I think that's a hate crime.

I really do. Because I think that praying on the hundreds and hundreds of years of distrust that black people have had to endure with the American government, right? and using it as an emotional ignition to make them make decisions and have thoughts that are counterproductive to what the truth actually is, is particularly insidious. It's wrong anytime it's done. But to me personally, to take this group of people that's been so kicked down and to meme them into a frenzy, which is what the right is doing purposefully to make sure that black people are scared is an unacceptable act of white supremacy.

It is banking on the pain that black people have felt. It is banking on the distrust that black people have had. It is banking on it all in order to make them have this emotional, and visceral reaction to something that in its substance isn't true. And I have to just ask black people, man, yo, stop getting memed. Like, really take the time to not get memed.

I want people to go to the Snopes.com website or go to any other website that fact checks these headlines to make sure that before we get mad, we get smart. And I just thought this was a real example of whether you like President Biden or not. And I don't know if I do. But whether you like President Biden or not, we have to take it upon ourselves.

Just like we take it upon ourselves in our neighborhoods to financially support them. Just like we take it upon ourselves to protect ourselves and do all this. We have to take it upon ourselves to protect the way we disseminate and synthesize information. That is up to us. Stop letting pictures give you your politics. Stop getting memed. They're fucking with us on purpose. So we've talked a little bit about this before in the way in the Democrats' message

and how the Republicans really seem to be controlled and whether they're lying or not seem to be all on the same page in these messages that they put out in the media, right? But for some reason, the Democrats don't explain things a certain way, don't really get it out there. It's just, it's like they don't, they're not on the same level when it comes to pushing out information. I had to really research to understand what this new policy was. I couldn't, I couldn't read a clickbait. I couldn't read a paragraph. I had to actually look at several articles to understand what HHS was doing, how this had been used in other countries before, what harm reduction services even means, and what it is that they were trying to prevent,

and how this was helpful for certain communities in particular. I had to look that up. If you're going to put out this policy, knowing that there is going to be another side that is going to be ready to tear it down and make your administration look bad or pray on a certain group of people, why would you not have a more formulated message out there to combat what you already know is coming? That is my frustration with Biden's administration on this. It's a great policy but nobody understands it it should be like here's what we're rolling out this is why this is this it is jarring to hear it first but let let me let me let me let you understand the benefits here's the evidence of how this has been proven in other countries here's a statistic that you need to know

a hundred thousand people overdosed in the 12 months leading up to april 2021 we're trying to prevent that. We're trying to prevent the spread of disease. I just don't understand how this just couldn't be out there. And I, and like, they continue to let this Republican or conservative right wing media train go do its thing without even having a unified message to, to show what they're doing that's really, really great. Maybe not really great, but just good. Do you know what I mean? And it continues to happen. And that's why you have this rhetoric out there. or these misconceptions of what's really happening from the Democrats or from the Biden administration when because the Republicans are doing this thing

and then we're not on the other hand combating it. And that's where they're not on the other hand combating it. So I actually disagree. I'll tell you why. I don't know. So the Democrats certainly need clear messaging. I agree on that. They need clear messaging on a litany of things.

But this happens. so frequently because they are playing a different game. Correct. But by they, I mean the right. So when the Obama... I agree. Right. So when Obamacare was rolled out, they went through Obamacare, line by line,

looking for something that they could spend. Right? And I remember one of the big talking points around Obolcare was that there was some kind of death panel that was going to decide whether or not your grandparents needed to die. Right. And that was part of the health care package to decide who was going to be able to have coverage and who was going to be able to not get coverage and all that. They go through stuff like that. They would use that as a talking point. It's sort of like CRT.

Like let's take the CRT example, right? Like how are we supposed to combat the messaging around CRT? Like the messaging around CRT is based in an intellectual lie. So no matter how clear you are on it, no matter how clear you are on the purpose of CRT, whether or not CRT is being taught in schools, it really doesn't matter. I've seen interviews where the cognitive dissonance that is shown by people on the right revolving, around CRT seems like either

a cultish dependency on the untruth of the information or just straight up a bunch of fucking liars. It's right. So it's both, but I think it's both depending on

the person. So I think a lot of times this is not so much, this particular thing, it's not so much Democrats stepping in it or not being clear with their messaging. It's the ballgame that's being played by the other side. Now, I don't know how much you can control that. Like, if you come out and you say, hey, we're doing all of those things that we're doing. And then the HHS says, yeah, there might be a point where there's

some pipes in there or some other things like that in there. Right away, that buzzword becomes Joe Biden's giving out crack pipes. And what happens is whether or not that's true or not, not, right? The reason why you have to be informed is because the headline that Joe Biden is handing out crack pipes to black people to promote racial equity, that's a lie. Like what the purpose of this is, even if that were to happen, which they said it's not really part of it, but even if that were to happen, what the purpose of this is, in a way, is to reduce harm and people who are drug users, right?

Which I don't think I have a problem with coming from a community where drug use is through the roof. And having seen drug users and my family do stuff, my uncles were using drugs in a hotel room, the Alamo Plaza in Baton Rouge. And they blew themselves up. So for third-degree burns all over their bodies. Right. So it's not just sometimes that the drug use. use itself is debilitating. It can be a dangerous lifestyle.

And if you can, on the edges, stop people from going through some of those things, you can actually save a lot of lives and maybe put people on the path to getting cleaner. So all of those things are true, but it would take a level of prognostication into these things and to what the Republicans might think or might say or might do that I don't know people really have when policymaking. The right doesn't care about it because the Democrats don't do it as much. I'm not saying they don't do it. Of course, you need talking points.

Don't do it as much. But in this case, I think this is scapegoating a little bit and making the Democrats responsible or making the left responsible for the nature of the right. No, I'm not, no, no. I, yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree on that because I don't think that it's scapegoating because I do think that I do agree with you. The right is playing a completely different game. We know that. We've discussed that before. If we know that, they know that. And I'm, I just feel like, obviously you can't predict every single thing they're going to do. But I learned about this policy because of the memes. I learned about this policy because of the way that the right. side was talking about it in the media, not because of the message that the Biden administration put out there. And I just think that the right is way more proactive with their lies than we are, than they are putting out the truth or putting out whatever policy it is or whatever it is that they're trying to do. I'm not saying that this would not have happened, but I definitely

feel like they could have been more proactive with a policy that to some could seem very, very shocking if you don't understand what's behind it. Yeah. That's what I wish I, I guess I wish I could have happened. And we've seen this happen with them before. You talk about CRT. We talk about the way that they're putting out these lies and they're really getting a following behind it and people don't even understand what it is and that it's not even an issue.

but they're proactive on the lie. They're creating bills against something that doesn't even exist. Whereas on the other side, for states that are run with democratic local governments or state governments, they could be proactive too in putting bills to combat this thing or to step out in front of it. Do you see what I'm saying? Like they act on the lies where, I guess the other side just kind of sits

not I don't want to say they sit back, but they just don't seem to be as passionate as the other side is. Yeah, well, so it's an interesting conversation because there are things where the messaging can be clear, right?

And then there are things where something just totally gets perverted. So in this particular case, you're doing something. You're it's just, I don't think that's I don't think that assessment is fair because, like, if you take CRT,

CRT is just a thing. Correct. It's just a thing. It's just, it's, it's, wait, I've never, I've never heard a Democratic or a liberal sort of a politician mentioned CRT. It wasn't, it's not a, it's not a deal. It's, it's something that just exists in places. But what the Republicans are looking to do is find something to contain.

continually energize their base and make their base forget the fact that the policies of that party doesn't serve that base. So we can't tell you that we're going to bring you into the middle class because we drop tax cuts that don't affect the middle class. We're not doing anything to try to grow wages. As a matter of fact, we're going to go ahead and start trade wars that in the long run de-incentivize certain companies to do business here in America. It makes it harder to do it because we're taxing goods that we're getting from other places.

We're putting tariffs on them that's making it hard for American businesses to survive. But I tell you what they were not going to do. We're not going to make your kids into liberal hippies and let them lose sight of what it is to really be an American. That's what the other side is doing. So let's show you how we're doing that. So they've got to go find something. When I saw this meme about the crap pipes, I didn't see that on Fox News or any of the, those places. I'm sure they had it. Well, I saw other black people sending that around.

So my call to action is certainly with the Democrats in terms of being clear with their messaging. I've been on record saying that. My call to action is also know what you're sharing before you're sharing. Take some personal accountability for the knowledge that you're disseminating and what's going into your own brain. Don't do the devil's work for him. Like, don't do it for him. If you read that whole thing and you obviously think and you honestly think that Joe Biden wants more crack users in a black community, then, you know, have added. But I guarantee you, 99% of the people who shared that and put that out there had no fucking clue what was really in this. And I've got to be real with you. We have to be responsible for protecting our peace on that.

That's true. That is true. I would never share something that I didn't understand, but, you know, that's, maybe that's the day and age we're living in too. Do you understand love? What? You share love, do you, but I bet you don't really understand love. What? Get out of my relationship.

Love, love is so hard to understand. Donnie, do you understand love? Donnie, tell me what love is. So every, every podcast, I want to do one. one answer with Donnie. Donnie, what's love? Donnie, the people love you. They love you, Don't know.

I'm growing to learn what love is. I feel like you don't have a full understanding of love. I can't at this point in my life. I have a better understanding of it than I did say 10 years ago, even five years ago. But the more I grow, the more I understand. And I think that's just human nature. Yeah. Fucking terrible answer.

I thought that was beautiful. I was really sitting here like, yes, Donnie, that was beautiful. You didn't, you gave me nothing. You gave me nothing. I gave you myself. What's your great? What's your great answer, fan?

What's your? Oh, I don't know. Exactly. But he just, come on. And I want you to show me. Do you all like that joint? I do.

That's a, that's a joke. I do. That's a joint, man, cause you question. Let's close out the show on that song, by the way. Yeah, what happened to the white people of the 80s that could just get in your soul with some music? The only one left is really Adele.

Okay, wait, of the 80s? Oh, yeah, of the 80s, for sure, of the 80s. You said the only one left is Adele? What I'm saying is, listen, of that ill. Oh, okay. Because I jumped in the cross tour. Kalika had Michael McDonald playing. and yo.

I love Kalika. I jumped in the cross-soole and Kalika had Michael McDonald's plane. I get it across, excuse me that's not the cross-sword, the Tesla. I jump in the Tesla and she had Michael McDonnell plane. I had to move her car to get out. And I get in the car and it is, so sweet dreams. And I'm like, oh, my God.

What happened to the white people? Who could make, what happened to on our own? Like, what happened to the white people? Who happened to Kenny Loggins? Who were the white people in the 80s that moved you like that? Oh, my God. Singers that moved you. So it was Loggins.

Okay. Loggins? McDonald. It was McDonald's. It was McDonald. Later on, it was Brian Adams. Okay? It was.

Sure. Now, he turned it to, I think he turned it to a vaccine. Wacko, or COVID Wacko. But later on, it was Brian Adams. It was I think he was a vaccine Wackle. I think he said some crazy shit about COVID. When COVID was going on, he was mad that he couldn't. He said some bad things about China or something or Chinese people

or something. Michael Bolton? Michael Bolden for a little while. It was Rod Stewart when he made the song. Oh, my God. Two guys that made songs about their sons, Rod Stewart, and then Sting, Sting fields of gold. I will walk with you. I will take your hand as we walk through fields of gold. All of that shit.

Yeah, it's a sad. That's a really sad song. Yeah. I've tried to think who else. The whites that we knew. that we could count on to give us those types of hits. You only named men. What about the women?

Like Tina Marie and Lisa Stansfield. Shout out. How dare you call Tina Marie White? The fuck is wrong with you. We're going to acknowledge Tina Marie as white. Hell no. We're not going to do that. No, how dare you put Tina Marie in this same category?

We're talking about Tina Marie came up under Rick James. You know what I'm saying? Like Tina Marie is one of us. So, so disrespectful, Donnie. Dana Marie is white. You're right. Lisa Stansfield was great, too. Lisa Stansfield was getting it.

Uh, uh, uh, uh. I like, there were other, there were, who were the white women, the pre-caring era of that were down with us? Antilletics. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start.

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All right Look speaking of racing stuff I want to play some sound real quick This is from New Dolphins head coach Mike McDaniel The liquor age is already Getting into it

It's already getting into it I want to squeeze in some sound now From Dolphins head coach New Dolphins coach Mike McDaniel who was incredibly entertaining as the office of coordinator of the San Francisco 49. It was always very funny. I had no idea by looking at him that he was black.

And I'm actually right because according to him, he is not black. Let's run this sound and talk about it. Yeah, it's been very odd to tell you the truth. This idea of identifying as something, you know, I think people, identify me as something, but I identify as a human being. And my dad's black. So whatever you want to call it, I know there's a lot of people with a shared experience, but it doesn't make, you know, I'm just, it's weird that it comes up because the, the, you know, I've just tried to be a good person. and I think my background opens my eyes a little bit.

I don't have any real experience with racism because, you know, I think you identify me as something close to, I don't know. But I know my mom experienced it when she married my dad. I know my dad experienced it, and that's in my family, but I guess that makes me a human being that can identify with other people's problems. Clunky, weird, and off-putting. I've never seen somebody fight so hard to not be black.

Oh, I've seen it. Well, maybe I've seen it privately, but I definitely haven't seen it publicly. We had Camel on the podcast. No, no, but Camel's not fighting it like that. And Camel is black. Like, Camel, you, Mike McDaniel and Camel, and Cabell are walking down the street. I mean, come on.

I'm trying to figure out where to even start with Mike McDaniel. There's really not a whole lot to say. Listen, Mike McDaniel doesn't want to be identified as black. He finds it, quote, odd. He threw his dad. Well, my dad is black. I've watched his experience. I'd be very curious to see what his father has to say about this.

You know, is this a line of things? that Mike McDaniel developed in life as he became an adult and could quote pass and didn't have to identify as black, or is this something that he grew up with? I don't know. But I've never seen someone really say, don't put those labels on me like this in this way, because he's being grouped in with the other minority coaches. So at this point, do we not group him in? because that's not what he wants to be called. Can they not check him in the box as being one of the minority coaches? No, he doesn't want to be.

No, he doesn't want to be. They tried, they tried to put a minority in in Miami, and they failed because he doesn't identify in that way and doesn't want to be. Right. So I could see how these remarks are heard for the black people because we deep down blackness comes with such a heavy burden and such a heavy tax we want you to want that you know what I mean we we want you to want you to want to be a part of this culture that we've painstakingly gone through all of this goddamn shit to cultivate we want you to want that we want black as black people sometimes and I won't speak for the entire black people I'll just I'll speak for myself as a black man I want you to choose blackness. Sure.

I don't want you to be begrudgingly black. I don't want you to be black behind doors. I want you to choose blackness. I want you to choose everything we've been through. Choose the struggle because of the way that we've been able to persevere in the face of the struggle. I want that to happen. But not everybody will.

It depends on where you are, how you grew up, and what you believe, the value of blackness to be. See, one of the reasons why I love blackness, love being black, because I understand the value in being black. I understand the absolutely awesome experience to live your life as a black person that I could not imagine

anything else. Like, I smile when I think about just being black because it's an amazing feeling, right? It is. Now, I'll tell you this. I'm not bothered by his response. I'm annoyed.

but it doesn't put me in my feelings. I'm annoyed. I'm annoyed. It doesn't put me in my feelings. It's annoying to see that. But I'm not bothered by it. It doesn't really put me in my feelings. But let me tell you what I will be annoyed by.

Okay? I'll tell you something I will be annoyed by. When Mike McDaniel gets kicked in his ass, and it will happen. Okay? Because now he's been outed as being black. Now, the, the world knows he's black.

When he feels some sort of discrimination in his life, when there's some situation that comes up racially in the NFL, and he decides to take a stand or do something or do whatever, and he tries to opt back in when he finally finds out, and he tries to come back through the door, then I'll be annoyed. See, fan, I don't think that he is. ever opted out because I don't think he ever was in. I don't think he ever identified as black, which I think he knows his father's black. He knows, but he doesn't identify that way. He's he literally

was like, that's him. I don't think that he ever opted in, which is why I think he feels so strongly in making that statement in such a public way, because it's like, you guys, I've never, I've never identified that way. I think that this is so odd, all this attention coming to me. He's always, he didn't call himself white, but he definitely didn't call him, he definitely made it clear he ain't black. That's my father's thing. That's my father. I saw what my father went through. I saw what my mother went through being with the black man, but that's not me. He was very clear to separate himself from that. So I don't think he'll ever try to opt in because I don't think he was ever in. I don't think he ever considered himself to be that way. What bothers me,

you're annoyed, I'm annoyed. What bothers me about it is that it just gives freedom for people to say, Exactly. Why do we have to be so caught up on race? Why is it so important to label Mike McDaniel as a minority, as a black coach? Even Mike McDaniel doesn't want to be labeled that way. And I guess he had an opportunity to represent, to step up, and instead chose to push himself and separate himself from that. That bothers me. And did it in such a public way. Like, so to your point, maybe he never out. Maybe he's not closest. I don't know. His, that's, I would be heard about his father. Maybe, maybe he's not opted.

Maybe he never opted out. You're right. But he, to me now, just, you know, you chose your side. No, I don't, look, the people that say we're too hung up on race and all of that, I don't have any problem having that conversation with him. I'm not, I don't, I think that that's, you know, why you talk. Sure, let's talk about why it's a central issue in America. We can have that conversation.

If that's the conversation before we get to anything else, let's do that. So I'm not really bothered by that. I'm just like, yo, cool. Look, stay over there. And when I say over there, I mean, I don't want to hear it. Yeah, like just don't say anything. You said you're out of it. You don't fuck with it.

When they fuck you over, what I hate is people, I hate people, O.J. Simpsoning the whole thing. that's what I hate OJ Simpson who lived his life in Brentwood for decades essentially as a white man even by his own admission and then as soon as he fucked up

monumentally made himself into what he already was which is an abuse of murder it just took that extra turn now he's the black is the black and you know what happens is our feelings when we see one of our brothers or sister

and sisters in distress or peril, they don't change. You can always come back to us. They don't change. That manipulation is what does fucking bother me. That manipulation that comes back to it. Now, this is why this happened to me.

This is why this deal does. That's partly what bothered me about the Brian Flores situation, even though it wasn't like this. No, it wasn't. There was enough there for me to be like, well, I'm glad you see now why maybe playing JZ songs to motivate Kenny Stills to play football wasn't the best thing to do. So that's the only thing I would say.

But I get what you're saying. Because it is like, yeah, now it's like, oh, Mike McDaniels, he's going to be a mascot with a goddamn conservative. He said, no, I'm not. Mike, don't call me black McDaniels. That's him. That's his new name. Mike, don't you dare. Mickey Deas. His skin is as, is as, white as Ronald McDonald's. As a matter of fact, he's Ronald McDonald. His nickname is now Ronald McDaniel. He's whiter than Ron McDonald.

Ronald McDonald was one of the white people back in the 80s that made me feel good to. My little fat self used to see Ronald McDonald. But Ronald McDonald never would like, I didn't connect him to hamburgers. I just connected him to a good time. I found him terrifying. Yeah, like, you know who I found terrifying?

Not Ronald McDonald. I found Mack the Knife terrifying. Do you know who Mac the Knife is? Yeah, yeah. Oh, wait. No, that's the hand burglar. That's a hamburger. Mac the Knife was this guy that used to sing this McDonald's song about

McDonald's being open late night. And he had this gigantic moon face. He was terrifying. Like Mac the Knife, look at him. No, I'm not finding him. Hold on. It's not Mac the Knife. Oh, wait, McDonald's.

No, no, there it is. There it is. I totally remember him. He was so... I didn't know he had a name. Oh my gosh. I so remember him. Like he was so scary.

Like I hated him, man. Yeah, he was like Mac Tonight. And I wonder, what the fuck? Yeah, because it wasn't Mac the Knife. It was Mac Tonight. Okay. That's the song I want. to go, us to go out to

in this pocket. I was so scared to him. And that was in the, and that was in the, that was in the 90s. So I might have been like a preteen or a teenager. I was like, Jesus Christ, this guy is creepy and disturbing.

Look him up. Mack tonight was his name. Fucking terrible. But you know what? So it's not Mac the Knife, but I did Google Mac the Knife, McDonald's and he pops up. Right.

It's terrible. All right. You guys, we also have a fantastic interview in the show today. We are going to talk to Anna Tubbs who just wrote a amazing book. I'm not sure if it's A or Ann, but she wrote a book about the mothers of the movement, the mothers of James Baldwin, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., and Malcolm X. It is a fantastic conversation. and we want you guys to listen to her

and learn about these amazing women. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. It keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support.

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And I'm an attempt to be, I'm an attempt to do this lady justice as I introduce her. Her name is Anna Tubbs. And she has written a fantastic book that I think, I think a lot of times we think these. revolutionary, amazing, insightful, genius figures in this movement. Just grow on trees. No, they do not grow on trees.

They grow from the painstaking, arduous parenting of some very, very important people, including some very, very important women. And Anna Tubbs has wrote a book called The Three Mothers, How the Mothers of Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, and James Baldwin. shaped a nation. It has just landed on the New York Times bestsellers list for paperback. It's amazing. She did a TED talk recently on how moms, especially how black mothers like MLK Jr.'s mom,

shaped the world but are too often ignored. Anna, thank you for joining us today on Higher Learning. How are you doing? Thank you. Thank you for that introduction. I'm doing well. It's been a day of interviews. I'm a little tired of Zoom, but overall, very excited to be here.

You know what? Let me tell you something. I appreciate the candor. Okay. I'm always honest. I like when people get on here and keep it all the way real. Okay. Anna. So let me ask you this question. Why was it important to you? Somebody who's done so much, PhD, all of that stuff. So smart. It's crazy. Why was it important to you to write this particular book? There was a lot that came before this book. So I'll first talk about the fact that I had an incredible mom who was always telling me how important mothers were and women were to our societies more generally. And that everywhere we traveled, so she was a lawyer and we had the privilege my siblings of and I of going from country to country with her and my father's work. So we were in Dubai and Estonia and Mexico, Sweden, Azerbaijan. And she advocated for women's rights, both in the U.S. as well as abroad. So she would always say everywhere that we lived, pay attention to how mothers are being treated, because that is an indicator for how well this country, this community will do.

Wow. And so she always said in the U.S., we disrespected mothers, we overlooked their contributions. And so that was always at the back of my mind. When I started my PhD, I was also incredibly inspired by Margo Leachette's work with hidden figures. So for those who haven't read the book, this is the book that it was based off of the authors of Margo Lee Shetterly and then the movie became this huge success. And I wanted to be somebody who found other hidden figures. And I wanted to make sure that more black women's stories were being told, stories we should have known all along. The kind of stories that when you know them, you say, wow, how did we not already know this? And so I knew I was going to do something around motherhood, something around hidden figures and celebrating black women's stories. And I chose these three because the mothers were all born within six years of each other. Their famous sons were all born within five years of each other. So I could bring them together with time without reducing the beautifully complex and diverse stories that come with black womanhood.

So often when we're represented, it's as if we're a monolith, as if we're all the exact same. And so much of our strength comes from that diversity and that difference. So there's so many reasons I wrote this when to honor my mom. to celebrate black women and to make sure this was a representation that was complex and accurate. I was going to ask you why you chose these three mothers, but you just answered that question. So what I will ask is, what surprised you as you were doing your research and you were putting this book together about these three women? Because what's come about lately is this, you know, this stereotype of the strong black woman. Right.

And how that's not always a positive thing. And, you know, Taraji P. Henson has this quote about, you know, she doesn't like that term because she feels like it dehumanizes us as black women. And it doesn't make it seem like we feel anything or we hurt. When you were doing your research, what is it that you learned about these women that you maybe said, huh, I wasn't quite sure about that. Or maybe this is something people would be interested in knowing. Yeah. Well, first I'll say with the strong black woman trope, it's something that I also address in the book. I go through all of the many ways in which black women have been.

dehumanized. And I explain that in speaking about dehumanization, when we as a black community say we're being treated as less than human and people say, oh, you're being dramatic or you're making that up, this book gives us the epitome of dehumanization by focusing on black motherhood, where by law, we were the only ones called the givers of non-life, the givers of property when we birth our children. That is the epitome of dehumanizing treatment. And so by focusing on this relationship in the United States, it's something that we can say it's undeniable. And we look at the Jezebel trope, when we look at the Mammy trope, when we look at the matriarch trope, the welfare queen, as well as the strong black woman where we're saying that she can somehow endure more pain

than anybody else, that if it's either we're less than human or we're superhuman, and I agree that it is no longer something that we can, and we as black women have never accepted it, but it's time for everybody else to also be just as enraged by this treatment of black women as we are. And in terms of the surprises that came up, when I had the idea to write the book, I just wanted to say these women are interesting in their own right. I wasn't trying to say because Alberta King did this, MLK did this. Like that wasn't my goal to make all of these connections and it all be about the suns in the end. But what surprised me was the fact that it is so obvious, the connections between these mothers and their son.

So the erasure of them is actually pretty intentional. So just to go through some of those little teasers, Alberta King, long before she has her son, is someone who's inspired by marches and boycotts and grassroots organizing. Her parents are the leaders of Ebenezer Baptist Church. So she grows up believing that Christian faith is always intertwined with social justice. She has access to an education. and she uses that education to advance freedom causes with these strategies that I've mentioned.

So even though she doesn't term it non-violence, it's the exact same thing. M.L.K. goes on to do so she clearly teaches him how to do it. When we look at Louise Little, who's Malcolm X's mother, she is a radical activist. She believes in black independence, black pride, black self-sufficiency. She's a Marcus Garvey follower. She's this woman who is unafrew. to speak up against white supremacy. She stands up, literally stands up to the KKK. So if you're looking, you know, for the leaders that are like Asata Shakur, these badass women leaders, Louise Little is one of

these people. And again, long before her son is even a thought in her mind. Then when we look at Bertus Baldwin, she was a writer. She believed that with her writing, she could help people around her, change their perspective on whatever struggle they were going through, any pain, any hate, hatred they were carrying. She wanted to remind them of the power of love, the power of light. So later, when her son becomes the famous James Baldwin, and he says that he's using his writing to be a witness to the power of light, he doesn't just come up with that out of nowhere. It's because he's directly quoting his mom. So every single time I find these pieces of the puzzle, I'm sitting there shocked and infuriated that we didn't know these connections sooner.

Okay, so it's very interesting. I want to talk about something real quick. Number one, Dr. King's mom was murdered? Yeah. Here's a thing. I just got to keep it all the way real with you. How in the fuck are we not talking about that? Like, look, almost everything when you,

we know the relationship of Dr. King with his dad. And we know how exactly, the relationship between him and his father, how he followed his father's footsteps, all of that stuff, all of something his father did, went on to be to serve at Morehouse, all of that stuff.

We even know more about Malcolm X's dad, murdered by white supremacists after he was, he himself was a Garveyite. The fact that Dr. King comes from somebody who lost their life in almost the same way that he would go on to lose his life,

It's why have these women? You say it was intentional. Why have we done this? Yeah. I want to even fill in some more of those blanks because you mentioned with MLK Senior that, yeah, MLK follows in his path of being a preacher and Ebenezer Baptist Church and all of these things. But even in MLK Senior's autobiography, he will tell you he could not have gone on the path that he went on without Alberta Williams King. And so she, it's her parents that establish Ebenezer Baptist Church. Wow.

He's the one that inherits it and passes it on to her children. When they marry, when she marries her husband, actually even before that, she has a bachelor's degree. She has a teaching certificate. She has access to education and he doesn't have the same opportunity. All the men in her family go to Morehouse. All the women in her family go to Spellman. He, when he met her, was actually considered illiterate. She helped him get into Morehouse because it.

It's her family's tradition. And she tutors him through his college education because she has been training to become an educator, to become a teacher. So even everything we've been saying about MLK senior and MLK Jr. inheriting everything from him, if you even read his autobiography, he'll tell you this is not, this is not the full story. And that's not to erase MLK Senior. His story is also incredibly inspiring.

But it's just not, it's just not the full telling of the narrative. And with Malcolm X, again, like you said, this kind of feeling that we know that he and his father was also an activist, his parents met because they were at a Marcus Garvey meeting. They were organizers together. And that's how they fell in love. They were so passionate about the same thing and how you address social injustice that they pass these lessons on to their children together. And after Earl Little is murdered, Luis Little is then approached by a white. male physician who says that she is, quote, imagining being discriminated against. And this is enough to put this radical Marcus Garley follower, who again is unafraid to speak up, to put her in an institution against her will for 25 years of her life. The reason this all happens is because of this larger system of racist patriarchy in the United States that makes it so that the further

you are from being a white cisgender man, the less you matter, the less your life is valued. So the symptom, one of the many symptoms is that a black woman's story, a black mother's story would not be celebrated. We would not think this is the hero of our story. Instead, we're going to hide that presence. We're going to say, actually, that doesn't really fit with who we think should be centered in this story. So tell us more about the dad. Give us more about the man in this person's life. even in James Baldwin's case, we know more about his abusive stepfather and have celebrated the fact that he becomes a writer almost to spite this abusive stepfather, rather than knowing about the mom who is a writer herself and who supported her son's career and who stood up against this abusive figure to ensure that James can go to school, can go to see plays, can go to Paris. And then the final little thing I wanted to say is that Alberta, in all three of these cases, the sons pass before the mothers do. So she lives to see MLK Jr. assassinated. She lives to see her second son who dies. And again, a very weird circumstance where he's drowning in his own pool. And he was also a radical freedom fighter. But she passes after him and she was shot in the back at church. And I don't mean to put more work on you

But can we get a part two of three more mothers Because I You know obviously the stories just don't stop with You want it too, man I want to yeah but I would like to pick the mothers I'll tell you what I'll say Of course this is what he's doing I want to know I want to know who he would pick

These are the mothers that I would pick Number one, Ray J's mom Okay don't know Just wait away. Anna, Anna, just let me, give me two more, two more, Anna. Two more. Two more. Okay.

Okay. Number one, Ray J's mom. Okay. That's number one. Okay. Number two, Stokely Carmichael's mom. Okay. We're getting in a good direction here.

Yeah. We're coming back. You guys don't understand that Ray J and Stokey Carmichael like have a lot. Who's number three? Who is number three? Rachel. Rachel, now let me ask you a question about number three. And why are we calling her Ray Jays mom?

Oh, excuse me. We're not doing this again. Excuse, Ray J's mom. Now, let me ask you a question. Let me ask you a question. Does this have to be the mother of a man? No. Okay.

That's very important. I would like to talk about the mother of Michelle Obama. Yes. Oh, that would be beautiful. Absolutely. Especially because we see her. We see her a lot. We see Michelle Obama.

And Michelle Obama. She talks about a little bit in her book. She does. Michelle Obama to me, and maybe it's because, she's black. It's definitely because she's black. She humanized what it means to be we said first lady, then you said first partner. So it makes me feel like first lady is antiquated and I would say first partner. Right, right. So

she humanized that and she, in a way, because I wasn't around for some of the ones in the past, there was a dignity about it when she had it. There was a power to it. And I just will like to know as much as possible about Michelle Obama. So those are the three. Make sure you get Ray J's mom in it. What about you, Rachel? What would you choose? I would not have chosen Ray J's mom or Brandy. I hate when you do that, Brandy. I definitely would have actually chosen Michelle Obama's mother.

Oh, my gosh. Who else would I choose? I think I'd do Catherine Jackson. I was just about to say that. I was just about to say that. I am pissed. But Ray J. I'm like I'm trying to think of I'm trying to space it out like I understand I love that you explained that the purpose of why you chose each mother but I'm trying to like choose it in different generations yeah so I'm like I can't think of the third one but I would want it to be more maybe a younger mom yeah but it's not it's not I can't think of it quite yet but with King Richard coming out recently I want to know about Sarita Vitas's mom

Because she trained herself in tennis to coach them. And we don't know this. This is not common knowledge. So I can't wait for her to. Now, Anna, can I ask you a question? Yeah. Okay. I think you are,

I think this is the only time in higher learning history that we've had a full, a couple on higher learning because we have Michael Tubbs, who is your husband. One of my political heroes, and I'm much older than him, so it's weird to say. For former mayor of Stockton, what I think is going to be the president one day.

You guys are going to be, you're going to be first person. And then maybe, or maybe you'll be president. He'll be first person. Yeah. My question is, like, was there in, I'm just going to ask it honestly, was there any part of this book, do you ever feel because Michael has come up, I've watched Stockton on your mind, it seems to be all about Michael Tubbs? Do you ever feel in your relationship?

You're so accomplished that there's so much of the spotlight on him. that in a way, do you ever feel minimized or looked over in any way? Is that something like some of these mothersville? Have you ever felt that yourself? Definitely. It was so interesting when I kind of came up with this project idea because it's the subject of my PhD dissertation as well as my first book, but they're very different documents. But while I was in my PhD, my advisor was doing this exercise with some students asking us

what our personal connection was to this work. And I thought, I don't think I have one. And I was really like analyzing, like, how do I connect? how do I connect with these women who have a man in their life who is very famous and who everybody celebrates, but they don't think about their contributions to their career. And I thought, oh, my goodness, I've been almost talking about myself all along as well as my mom-in-law and my auntie and my grandma. And so that was this moment for me where I said, okay, this definitely connects me very personally because I know what it feels like to have, like you said, your own

career, your own passions, your own talents. Mike and I met in undergrad when I was 19. He was 21. That's when we started dating. And at Stanford, I didn't feel this sense of erasure because people knew us as two individuals that were on their own journeys, on their own paths. But when I started traveling to Stockton to help support his campaign for city council, and I started to be seen only as his partner and as a young black woman who has a higher pitched voice and who people might perceive to be attractive, there was no sense for people that I had a brain of my own or that I was accomplished myself. People would say it directly to me. I was called a trophy girlfriend while we were dating. People would ask me or say really weird things like he's so brilliant,

you're so beautiful, just random and assumptions that they would make that like maybe I hadn't got into college. It was just really bizarre what people were just kind of putting me, these boxes they were putting me into. But it was also things that I studied. At the same time, I got my master's in gender studies and then my PhD in sociology. So all the things that I knew happened because of these systems of racism and patriarchy and sexism, I was seeing play out in real life. And as an example, actually going back to something we were talking about before, like, why these mothers were erased, I don't actually put that blame on their sons because in my research, I was able to uncover multiple moments where the sons do give credit to the moms. It's more of the scholars and the journalists who say that that doesn't really fit with what we're, you know, the story we're trying to tell here. So this happens all the time with Michael where someone asks him, you know, who are the influences in your life? How did you do this? And he will always say his mother, his grandmother, his aunt, the three women, the three mothers in his life who raised him. And now his wife, black women who have helped support his journey and have kind of shown him the way to things

and his willingness to listen to black women. And then once the article comes out, there's always, we're just like an asterisk in the story. Even if he went on and on and on talking about us. And there's always more to be said about his father who was not in the picture. And so it happens all the time. And I was well aware of that in doing this research that I needed to push the envelope. I needed to dig further. I couldn't just accept the one little asterisk or footnote that was taken out of context. But I needed to fully as much as possible reconstruct the lives of these women, not only for them, not only for myself, but for all of us who are being misrepresented and left out of our telling of history.

right beautiful brilliant i am so glad we had you on the podcast to talk i mean seriously i i cannot wait to see what you do next where where can people find the book and everything that you're doing yeah the easiest way to find me is on amelika tubs dot com you can find my social handles on there you can find my articles you can find my ted talk please share my ted talk it's my my thing all around mothers needing more appreciation and how the stories that we tell around mothers need to start shifting to be more accurate so that we can get policy that supports this role in the way that it deserves to be supported and celebrated. Let me tell you something.

You go and you tell Mike he married up. Thank you. He knows it. Honestly, he's very good at that. All right, Anna Tubbs. Thank you so much for joining us on higher learning today. It really was a pleasure. Thank you.

much. The book is the three mothers how the mothers of Martin Luther King Jr., Malcolm X, and James Baldwin shaped a nation. Go get it right now.

Anna Tubbs was fantastic. She was great. So good. So good. I love it. And I love that she's going to give us a part two. Some more mothers.

We got to keep this thing going. She's the number one Tubbs and the Tubbs family. Tubbs. I mean, I didn't want to be the one to say it. But yeah. She's the number one Tubbs.

Oh. is this fucked up a sorority at southern Connecticut State suspended Tuesday after members of its white fraternities white sorority were mocking hand signs and rituals of historically

black organization the undated video of white members of Omega Zeta Pi mimicking and laughing at the hand signs and the stroll rituals of Zeta Phi Beta were viral after it was shared on social media. Students at SCSU, which is in New Haven, Connecticut,

and people of social media call for the sorority's suspension. Now, you have to watch the video on this, but they're going around, they're making fun of the Zetas. They're throwing up the Zeta sign. Zeta, Zeta, Zeta, Zeta, and they're going nuts. All right? Is there sound to this, Donnie? It's just a sorority girl screaming.

Okay. Yeah, which I don't want to hear. I don't want to hear. Rachel, this is in your wheelhouse right here. This is in the house of the wheel. You are a member of which one? Really, Vand. You're a member of Delta Sigma Theta.

The question, the segment is, is this fucked up? And I'll ask you, is this fucked up? Obviously, it's messed up. And for people who might have watched the video and said, what's the big deal? Like, they're just putting up hand signs or strolling or doing the same motions that Zeta 5 Beta may do. You have to understand the history of why black sororities exist. Because we could not be a part of other sororities, we started our own. And we hold our traditions, our rituals.

Like, it's very sacred. And so for them to mock and make fun of what the Zeta's, we're doing, I wish they would try to do that to some deltas. For them to mock that is extremely disrespectful and they should be suspended. And yes, it is messed up. And I'm glad that the university took action and decided to suspend them. You know, like you can't, because I feel like some people might try to say, oh, they were just admiring them.

No, it's very clear from the video they are making fun of them. And that's not what that's about. Like, that's not what should be done. Yeah, it's definitely fucked up. It's definitely fucked up. It's just stop mocking black people, man. Yeah, like if you like... Just do your thing.

If you like the strolling, if you like that we step, I remember when we were at UT, we were invited by a white sorority to come and teach them how to step. Wow. They asked us not imitating. They wanted to do some type... I can't remember what it was.

And it was like... My dean thought it was like a good bonding experience. So we taught them a step routine and they set their own chant to it. And it was actually a fun experience. Hell no. We didn't teach them. Yeah, we did. We did.

We didn't teach them how to. We taught them how to step. Hell no. I bet that step looks so crazy. You know what I'm saying? They're out there stepping to living on a prayer. No, I never saw them perform. I never saw them perform.

They didn't do a step show. We went to their sorority house. Which is another. Can you imagine? Yeah. That's actually lit. Oh, well. That's just an acapella.

That's actually lit. God damn it, I have the best ideas. By the way, speaking of Bon Jovi, another song from the 80s, white. Not that one, but shot down to the blaze of glory. All right. For the Young Guns 2 soundtrack. Shut down In a blaze of glory

Take me down Also Billy Idol For the fourth Fairlane soundtrack Used to love Rock the cradle of love I rock the cradle of love I think the audience has reached

It's max of you singing On this episode Oh, these songs are great These are great songs. Where are the whites, man? We need y'all back to make music that we like. We only got a couple now. Y'all try to act like us now.

Be white. Just be white. And we'll listen to your music. Be white. Michael McDonald's kind of black. All right. We got to go. Oh, I do want to point out one thing about the Aquafina situation that I miss.

Someone made a fantastic observation. on my Instagram, something that I missed, and I cannot believe that I missed it. Okay, it was actually on my Twitter. So as we discussed about the Aquafina situation, we talked about the use of AVEE and whether or not it's cool with Aquafina being black. And in making my point that Aquafina sounds black, I said that Aquafina

sounded like a member of the Woutain clan This came from John Yun on Twitter John Yun at J.M. underscore Baptist. I heard your discussion regarding Aquafina. You referenced Shaolin and the Wutane without even acknowledging where that was stolen from. As soon as you said it,

I heard it. Before you, as soon as you said, yes, at the time, no, but I know where you're going with this. Go ahead. So check yourself before you and Rachel check us for appropriation. That is a fucking outstandingly fair point. Yep.

There is no way round it. There is no way to go through it. he also says we have no avenue for popular representation but to mimic you and the whites we're still being called Bruce Lee for no reason but that we have nothing else I mean we could talk we can litigate that if we if we wanted to and hopefully that that representation changes for our ages brothers and sisters but that for anyone listening that is a figure four leglock of knowledge of knowledge of logic, shall I say. A figure for a leg lock of logic. So, uh, and we have never once called out. You're right. Yeah, but it's true. We did not, we did not recognize that. So thank you for calling us out. So this, this thing goes both ways, guys. It goes both ways. Uh, so, you know, hoping to still get aquafino. So talk about her, you know, talk to her face and say, hey,

you know, it's cool. Let's just talk about it. Let's get it out. Okay, back. A couple of questions. Raid just got to go. Mailback time. Time to read your letters. And then we'll reply to them. Oh, it's mailback time. Write us with your queries. And we'll chime in. All right.

Ang for Press asks, if you could relive any year of your life, would you and which? 1996 What happened? 1998 1998 should I say Is that college? It was senior year of high school Just the best year

Just fucking great Just like an amazing year A amazing year of McKinley An amazing year around Bat Rouge Just an amazing year In 1998 for sure I would say first year College that's 2003

I mean just Coming from First Baptist Academy, my entire life, graduating with a class of 82 kids, mostly white, to step into college and have all, and a conservative, more of a, like a conservative strict household to be, and I don't mean conservative as far as politics. Yeah. But, and then just to have to go to UT where there are, you know, like 30,000 kids and there's just so, I have all this freedom.

and I'm meeting all these people and I'm joining these organizations and I'm expanding my knowledge and I'm getting even more culture than I was before. I just remember that spirit, that year, that freedom, that it, like all of it, 2003. It was a wild year too. Donnie, I bet it was. Donnie, let's go. Hurry up. Hot morrow.

Hot morrow. She wants to know who's going to win the Super Bowl and what food will you be eating? wings without a doubt. Burrow is going to win. I'm going to try not to go too hard. I really got to lose weight. I'm so fat. So Burl is going to win

and I'm going to try to eat some celery and some ranch. You know what I'm saying? And do push-ups during the commercials. Rachel, don't judge me. I am. Like, take a day off. I'm doing wings. Wings with the side of alcohol.

And I think the Rams are going to win. Oh, yeah. I think it's, yeah, we'll see. We'll see. That's a good choice, by the way. I mean, what's the spread? Four, four and a half? I don't know.

It keeps changing. Okay. But in the Rams favor. One more. Pick wisely, Don. Donnie. Just go right down the line. Amanda Bake, Bakey, 15.

For Van, which three MCU movies would you show Rachel to get her into the franchise? And I will watch them. So be good. So pick, well. The original Iron Man, which you have, have to see. I've seen it, but I'll watch it again. Okay, the original Iron Man, which you have to see. The OG Avengers movie, which you have to see to understand the stakes. And then I'm going to go Thor Ragnarok, which is just a fun movie with Thor and a lot of hijinks. It's colorful. It has great

female characters. It's funny, moves well, has a lot of heart, a lot of stakes. If I was going to show one movie to anybody to make them an MCU fan, I would show Thor Ragnarok. Now, a lot of people are going to say, what about in game and Infinity War? Yeah, you'd show those, but they're the culmination of so much content that you need a little bit more context for them. Notice I did not say Black Panther because I would not show.

Yeah, I know that you've seen it, but I also would not show somebody Black Panther to get them into the MCU. what you are into the MCU and you kind of get how things go. Black Panther would be a fantastic movie to watch. Also, if you're like me, you watched Black Panther and had no idea

it was a part of the MCU. Black Panther's great. Rest of peace, Chapo. Chabot Bowman. Great movie. All right, guys. That's it. No more how I'm learning.

You guys are done. Enjoy the Super Bowl. Rache, do all your work, Rage, okay? But also, take some Rache down time. You do the same for yourself.

I know they're running us ragged this weekend, but you got to remember, we're not robots. Right. We're human beings too. And you guys remember that for yourselves, too. Take some time for yourself this weekend. This weekend. All right. Take the deep caps off, but do not stop learning.

I'm Van Lathen Jr. I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye guys.