Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Are the Black Eyed Peas Black Music? Plus, a Michael Jackson Conversation

Episode Date: January 5, 2021

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay discuss will.i.am’s recent comments about the Black Eyed Peas getting too big to be considered Black music (8:00) and President Trump’s recorded conversation with the Georgia secretary of state (39:00), and then have a conversation about their feelings about Michael Jackson in regards to the 'Leaving Neverland' documentary (1:01:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? It is I, Van Lathen. And it's me, Rachel Lindsay. So we're actually two minutes and 50 seconds into this podcast already because I was talking. But for some reason, it probably was Bozeman. My connection to my Zoom recorder was loose. And so the levels weren't coming through, but I noticed it.

And we had to start over a second. Don't do that to Bozeman. This is all you. You didn't have it plugged in. You didn't check your levels before we started. He's a playful dog. We're a little rusty. We're used to doing two shows a week.

You know, we've whittled it down to one for the holidays. We're back now. Happy New Year. Happy New Year, Rachel. Yeah, we were talking about something. We were talking about something. We were talking about an experience we both just had, right? Because we taped a promo for a podcast,

which will already have happened by the time you're listening to this. Me and Rachel, later on today, Monday as we tape this. We're going to be on Bachelor Party Live with Juliet Littman. Let me talk about the first season of The Bachelor, right? The first season of me watching The Bachelor. All right, it's not the first season of Bachelor,

but first season I've actually watched. We've got a lot of fun. Talking about old Matt James. I watched the first episode. I got a lot of thoughts about Matt James. The first episode was weird. Vibrators, tiaras, all kinds and stuff. But you're going to talk about that.

But one of our colleagues at the Ringer, who taped this for us, he was working on another different show, has the coolest name I've heard in a while. Okay. His name is Moes Bergman. Moes. That's his guy's name. And is that his real name or is it a nickname? No, his real name is Moes Bergman. And why is it so cool to you, fan?

Because it's just like, it's a name. to me, like I said before, I'll retell it. It's not good. That's good the second time. But to me it's good at the first time. It was fucking great. To me, it's either Mose Bergman, either you're like a

jazz trumpeteer, like you're a trumpet player and a jazz band. Or you're like a private detective. Like get Mose Bergman on the case. On the case. You know? It's like there's a killer roaming around Hollywood. There's only one man.

solve it as Moes Bergman. But here's the problem. Mos Bergman before he had to leave the force. Why? Because the captain was limiting him. He didn't like his unorthodox ways and tactics. So now, the only hope to solve the case

of the Tenseltown terror is Moes Bergman. I feel like when you call Moes, he's sitting at the bar with a basket of peanuts next to him. You know what I mean? and like a disheveled suit. Cook!

You like this? Yes. Keep cooking. Cook. Oh, that's what that means. You're sitting there talking to, talking to Joe behind the bar. Yeah. Nobody's around him.

Maybe like the local bum, maybe at the corner. He's got his whiskey on the rocks there. And he's like, pour me up another one. Right. Pour me up another one, Joe. And then this is the scene where Moses' old partner who's actually now the captain, okay,

comes into the bar. And he's like, really, Moes? You don't think that a man, if you're at there, shut up. Either you're drinking or you're getting out of my face. Choose one. Sure, I'll have a drink. Hey.

Joe. I remember, Joe, give us two of them. Moes' life has gone off the rails since he's left the force. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the bum is really Moses's only friend. Moses's the only guy that looks after him.

But this throughout, tracking down the Tentseltown Terror, right? Yeah. You know, this is going to bring Mose and his old partner back together. Moes is going to find the meaning of life and career in this new case. And this is, no, no, this is the thing. The Tensletown Terror is a cold case. Oh, wow. It's a cold case.

And this is why he and his partner, this is why he left the force. Oh, cool. But now he's, he's, it's back. He's back again. He's killing again. So Moes has this new, he's like, you know what? You got to get him. He takes a shot, not whiskey, scotch.

Stotch. Takes the scotch back to the head, slams the glass down. You can hear the pool balls. That's probably not what they're called. Yeah, I mean, I don't know what they're called. You hear him clacking the back and he's like, I'm ready. I'm ready. Because this is the, that's so much better.

You're so good at this. Moes was killing it. the Tisletown Terror, that is what made Mose go haywire. Yeah. Because he was too obsessed with the case. Yeah. But the Tisletown Terror stopped.

Moes couldn't catch him. Like you said, most comes back later, and now it's got to finish. Moses has got to finish. Moes Bergman. Man, this is good.

We just wrote a script. We wrote a script. In scene. Insene. What era before we leave this? What era, what era does this take place during? If I'm going to give it, 80s?

80s, 80s, yeah. 80s, because then the partner can be black. Anytime before they. Anytime, like literally, people understand about what it was like to be black. Like, we have to set the movie in period, right? But you can't do it in the 60s, right? Can't do it even really in the 70s. That's not why I said.

You definitely can't do it in the 50s, all right? I said 80s because I was thinking like technology. Like the system isn't up yet. They don't really have computers like that. I just see him like going through papers, going through old files. The evidence wasn't to get, you know what I mean? Like he's really got to hit the ground running to solve the case. It's true.

But if it was in the 50s, his partner would be his chauffeur. Hey, hey, Danny, we got to go out, you know. Mosbergman, Mose Bergman and the Tessletown Terror. It's good. I want to watch it. I would watch it too. Damn. See, that's what I'm talking about.

When you're at home and you're going stir crazy, you're 15 pounds heavy, and there's nothing else for you to do. These are the things you can really come up with great, great art. Yeah. I'm into it. Yeah.

What did he say? If you didn't hustle this year, it ain't in you? Yeah. Come on. I love you, Bob. That's right. I love. Puff is my man.

Me and Puff are working together, but I'm a hard. hustling my ass back and forth to therapy. We don't always, we don't always, you know, get it right every time. That one wasn't it. All right. I got to ask you a question, and this is a very straightforward question. Got it.

Straightforward question. And I will ask you right after this break. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the final with Bandoul predict. Predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a 25. $5 bonus. Offered by Fanduel prediction markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 plus. Bonus is non-withdrawable and expires seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant

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weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Rachel, I'm sure you like the black eyed peas, right? What's your favorite black eyeps on?

Oh, gosh. I mean, I'm not like a huge, fan. Maybe let's get it started. I'm just picking one. Let's get it started. I'm just picking one. It's a controversial song. It's a controversial song. Did you know that?

No. Gosh, of course I picked that one. Why is it controversial? Because the name of that song was actually, let's get the R word. Did you know this? Shut up. That was the name of that.

of that song. Initially the song was Let's get our word. And they recorded it that way and everything. Let's get R word in here. Are you, I'm Googling this. Are you serious? He's right. Yeah. No, don't know, Jackson, I don't need you to come in. Who's dumb ideal? Was that? Okay, I changed my mind. Jackson, I don't

need you to come in because I'm sick of being taken like the stuff that I say is tall tells. It's not that. It's just that it's so crazy that you would even think that that's okay. And now the song is I take it back. It's that's the joint.

It was like, let's get our word. Turn it up and play it again. That's the song. That's the one. I go back. I picked that one. It's the jam.

I can see the video of my head and everything, right? They were in the camera. Remember, they were like, that's the joint. And then they like, the video went, the song was like two minutes long. Then the song went off.

And for the next like five minutes in the video, they just dance weirdly. And I was in college, I was like, yo. That's why they weren't. on yet. You know what I'm like,

they think they're getting off with this? Like, I don't think they're getting off. That's why they went on. And that was a weird. And remember, because this is like maybe 99, 2000, it was a high bar of dance that I was used to. Yeah.

At that point, you know? So it was like, that was when Usher was doing this thing. And you had the boy bands out there that were killing it. I just thinking they wanted to. They were just a different group back then, right? They were like, uh,

back back kids. I like, uh, we get into the topic. I'm not going to lie. I kind of like it's two. They got one that's they got one and they got C-Lo on it

and they got a bunch of people on it. It was like a damn, what's the name of that song, man? It was like a real jazz melodic joint with I don't know. Damn, Cilo is on the song. I got to find it. Because it's like they were actually

it's actually like a hip-hop joint. Like a real hip-hop joint. Celo. Is it one of their beginning? Nah, they were blown up because Fergie was with them. By this point, Black-eyed peas. Black-eyed peas. Oh, no, what the hell?

This is not, am I not thinking about it? Oh, it's called Like That. It's the Black-O-Pee's featuring Q-Tip, John Legend, and To Live Quilite. Yeah, that's all I used to dig a lot. But I'll say this. Besides that joint, it was just straight up my humps. You know what I'm saying? But is that Black I peas?

Really? I thought that was just Fergie saw for some reason. Now, that's a Black IP song. Okay. It's a stupid song, but it's fun. It is fun. Now, the reason why we're talking about the Black iP's is because Will I am recently said something. I thought it was very interesting.

It's something that leads to a deeper cultural conversation. and I love questions like that that lead to a deeper cultural conversation where we can understand each other and share ideas. He says that the black IPs got so big that they are not considered

a black act. They're not a black band. They're not a black group. It's not black culture because they got so big. And he says that's a shame. Because the black community should be able to take credit or how big the black IPs did

and everything that the black IPs are about. He feels like they got so big to cross over so much that that's not the truth. Do you think, when you think of the black IPs, do you think of them as a black act? Hmm. Okay, I'm pausing because I'm thinking, you ask the question in an interesting way.

Because I would say yes and no. I think of them as a black act because they're black. But do I think of their music necessarily in the genre of being like urban? No. But I looked them up, okay? Because I, you know, I saw what Will I Am said and and I thought it was more of an excuse. And I know we're going to get deeper into it. But they've been nominated for NAACP awards.

they've been nominated and won. They've been nominated for BET awards and won. So obviously they are considered a black group. And it's in a rap division or best group division that they're getting this credit. So yes is my general answer. Now, do you feel like you have to be black to be nominated for an NAACP award or a a BET award? I think most people who are nominated are black.

I would say 99% of them that are nominated are. I don't think you have to be. I know that there are people who aren't black who've been nominated, but majority of them are. And so I'm saying that to say, they've been recognized by black award shows for their work. So they have been considered to be black, which is why I laugh at what Will I Am says,

because I feel like it's just a scapegoat. and he's not really getting to the issue of it. He's putting the blame on other people when maybe the blame should be turned on self. Self. Interesting. Iggy Azalea, just to let you know, has been nominated for two BETT Awards.

There you go. Iggy, Iggy, Iggy, Iggy. I'm sure M has two. I'm sure M has won some. But look, so I don't know. Like, I never thought about whether or not the Black IPs or Black IPs. I never did it.

I never thought about it because it's it makes no difference. Who cares? Like, first of all, you know, the black IPs have a long history. Did you know that they were signed

back in the day to ruthless records? Easy E sign them. It's a true fact. No, and I believe you. I'm not even going to say, let me Google it. Exactly. I believe you. Exactly.

Easy E sign them. I think the deeper question to this is specifically what does it mean when you say black, right? And that's something that's interesting because black is both who you are and what you do.

And very few other cultures, and I'm not going to speak for them. Actually, that's not true. Most other cultures have that same litmus test. You can be Mexican and you can also do things that Mexicans do. If you do that, you're doing something that Mexicans do. There's Mexican music.

That is what culture is, right? I think the only thing is that I remember back in the day when I was at TMT, we were talking about rappers. And I said rap is black music. The music is ours. And everybody at TMT was like, ah, no, it's not. It's like the music is whatever, whatever, whatever. Blacks and Latinos started hip-hop.

So it's like the music is ours. And everybody was getting down on me, and my friend who worked with me at the time there, Ita Haid, said, listen, I agree with you. He's Israeli. He goes, anybody can play Israeli music. But if you play Israeli music, you're playing Israeli music. Their music. Their music, right?

So I guess the question is not is whether or not the black IPs, whether or not they are black. The question is, is their music black music? Yeah. And the answer is, I mean, yeah, because there's not a piece of music that black people don't do. I mean, there's not one...

Would you say we do pop? Yeah. Did you say that's ours? Well, no, no. What I'm saying is that well, Michael Jackson is black music? Is it not? I knew you were going to use Michael as an example, but I... I could use countless people. Whitney, early Whitney Houston. Yeah. But really, to be honest with you, I could say that black people invented pop music.

Who would you say invented pop music? I mean, who is the artist that you first affiliate pop music to? It depends on what you mean about pop. This is what I'll say. I'll say that the first big, huge music that was big on radio, right? Mm-hmm. It was mostly white acts covering black music, right? Absolutely.

So, or even if it's Elvis Presley or any of, person like that. That's still black music that he's doing and it's pop it was Elvis pop? I don't consider it. I don't even know when pop really. It's pop music by default Elvis Presley is going to be a pop music artist just because of how popular the songs were.

Now if you talk about pop as a genre once again New Edition, whoever all of those people are going to take their cues and influences from us. It's like there's no part of music in America that black people have an influence. So did you see the interview that Kim Hill did? Kim Hill, who used to be the singer for the Black IPs?

Yes. They kicked her right to the curb, put the White Lady in. Yes, go ahead. So she did an interview, which is very interesting, which you haven't listened to it, you should go, because she's been pretty silent except for an article that she did, I believe, in 2019 with the New York Times, about her time with the Black Appies. And she discusses how they moved away from their Black audience, from what they used to be when they were doing,

that's the joint, that's the jam, or when they had her as the lead singer. And once they put Fergie in, they moved to pop culture to gain or attract a bigger audience. So they moved away from their core audience, the audience who, you could say, put them on the map, who gave them their start to attract a bigger audience that didn't necessarily look black.

And she comes from this place of, you neglected the community that helped you. You took out the black woman and replaced them with a white woman. And even in this interview that's an issue that we're talking about, he says that the black IP started in 2004. I don't know why he says that when that Elefunk album came out in 2002, which had Fergie on it. But he totally disregards the fact that she was a part of this group

and this group was a part of a whole genre, a blacker genre before they became, they gained a popular. So I think the argument on the other side of it is don't use the fact that you gain international success and attracted a bigger audience when that's what you were going for as a scapegoat. When the reality is you purposely tried to attract that type of audience and moved away from what you really are. And even when you talk about what you started as and when you talk about the group, even so now, you disregard its origins which were rooted in blackness.

And that's why people don't consider you a black group. because of where you started and where you are now. You know, if you did a, how's it going, how it started versus how it's going, you could really do that with the black IPs, and it would look totally different. That's why people question their blackness, not because they gain international success,

which is why I have a problem with what Will I Am said in that interview. Yeah, I don't think anybody questions usher's blackness because confession sold 10 million copies. Right. I will say that there is a slight difference here. Even in that's the joint, that's jam, when you looked at them,

it was obvious that they were very eclectic, right? Eclectic, yeah. They dress differently. The members, like Apple and some of these other guys, they look differently. They're biracial. So there were some things that were different about them already. When they came back with the Where is the Love Joint,

which is two versions, I guess there's one with Fergie and then one with Justin Timberlake. At first, I didn't even know it was the black eyepies. Because the music. I did neither. Sounded nothing like it. And when I saw Fergie walking with them, I thought she was a featured artist.

Sure. It wasn't until they kept going that, you know, because it sounded completely different. I don't think, first of all, nobody is asking this question. That's the first thing. This is something that Will I am has sitting on his heart. Right.

And brother, if you got something sitting on your heart, Let's talk about it. But I can't remember the last time I was in a conversation with members of the quote-unquote community and they were mad about what the black IPs did. Nobody. The black IPs have gotten a pretty easy go of it as far as the community. They do whatever they want. We don't care.

Like we're not tripping about, I mean, maybe does Will I want to be invited to more things? I think that he wants to be affiliated. That's what it felt like to me. when you talk about what he wanted to get off his chest, I think he's upset that he's not considered more, you know, like down with the black folks. Maybe he's not invited to certain things. Maybe that's what it is.

Because I do look at them as just more pop than I do with how they started. There's a huge difference. It's a weird thing. It would be as if it's like, shout out to Jason Derulo, right? Right. But Jason DeRueh- But he's always been that way. I know.

Whatever. The point is the My Humps, situation, they're not playing that at the barbecue. Like, they're not rocking my humps. It's not going to happen. But I don't think anyone would not let Will I Am in. I think this is a personal thing that Will I Am has going on with himself. So you think maybe he feels that way because what they did was intentional.

They intentionally changed who they were to attract a greater audience. Yeah, but it happens. A lot of people do that. And there's nothing wrong with it. But I think that that's where he's coming from where you think of, when you give a Jason Durullo or you name another pop artist, did they start off one way and change who they were to gain the masses to become this international group that, I mean,

they're technically one of the best-selling groups of all times. I didn't even know all of that. Why did you say technically? I mean, because I don't know who they're one of the best is what I should say. I'm not sure who is the best. I think that you're having a lot of problems given the black IPs, their flowers. Don't put that on me.

It's technically, it sounds to me like, will I? am is feeling a certain way because of, you know, he felt, because that's what Kim Hill said. She basically says they sold out. All right. So,

Will I Am, one of the joints and jams was on the Woolworth soundtrack. This is freshman year of college. Like, turn it up and play it again. That's the joint. That's the jam. And then, you know what?

They came back again with a second album in, and I guess, like, this was in not in 2000 that shit didn't go anywhere yeah I think I think maybe that's when they had Macy Gray on they had Macy Gray yeah okay okay yeah that didn't go anywhere so they were like

we're not doing this no more 2002 they auditioned Nicole Scheringer I saw that and then they uh Nicole was just gonna Nicole and Ferger was just bouncing around until one of them popped and then they

uh they came back with Ella Funk and then that was it. But look, look, I always wonder about stuff like this. Because I tell you something, man, there's no love like the love of black people. I'm convinced.

I'm convinced there's no love. Do you know why? Because people can have so much. But if they don't have that, they drove about it. You're saying if black people don't have the love of black people. Yeah. If black people don't have the love of black people,

they drove about it. not enough out there besides that that can make you happy if you don't have the love of black people, if you don't have the love of your community, you know, because they like- I can speak from personal experience. I know. Have you felt that? Are you kidding me? I was so disappointed that when I was doing media for the black bachelorette, I didn't do,

and for all I know. For the black bachelorette. That's not the name of the show. I didn't mean that. I meant to feel as the black bachelorette. As the Black Bachelor. Like, Rachel has renamed the show when I was doing media

for the Black Bachelorette. As a Black Bachelor. I was so hurt that I didn't do like the Ricky Smiley show or the Breakfast Club or, you know, just Ebony. BET wrote an article about me when I was announced

and they wrote a nasty article about me at the end of my finale, which I was extremely vocal on, which I got in trouble for. So I was upset that the, community. And then I had to think about it. Did Rachel watch the show before she was on it? No. Did Rachel care about it? No. So why am I, I guess I just thought seeing that a black woman actually was held, like finally broke through that they would be more supportive. So I understand, I guess, Will in that sense, that you want that. You want your people to feel proud for you. You want your people to love what you're doing and to support you and uplift you. And when you don't have it and you want that, because not everybody wants. But when you do want it, it hurts.

So here's the most enduring thing about black people. Black people care about what they care about. And it ain't no telling why. There's no rhyme or reason to it. They care about what they care about. There's a feeling. I'm sure every culture has this. There's a feeling, right?

A feeling. You look, you feel it When you're around, when you're enveloped in it, when you're a part of it, there's a feeling. As long as that feeling is there, you feel comfortable, you feel counted, you feel amongst people, it's all love.

But if anything interrupts the frequency that transmits that feeling, you ain't it. And I'm sorry, the black eyed peas haven't made one song that gives you that feeling. And I'm telling about the feeling is all across the spectrum, by the way. Right, right.

The feeling is, the feeling can be a spectrum from Nucket View Buck all the way to the greatest love of all. It's a wide spectrum. Sure, sure, sure, sure. By the way, there's some white people that give you the feeling, you know. Do I name some? Robin Thick, Lost Wants. without you. Put that record on. Oh, it's without you.

Can't help myself. Oh, yeah. Did it help that he had a black woman as the lead or you would just still be feeling it regardless? That's how he got the feeling. You can't write a song about a white woman like that. You're right. Let's talk about Robin think. When he's saying, I get you alone with that long hair riding that bicycle in the street.

Right. We weren't. We weren't. Right. We weren't. See, he changed. He changed. Changed. They had been together for a long time, so I don't know if he was denying it, though.

But it's music. You're supposed to say it? It's like you write songs about white women like Richard Marks. You know what I mean? That's the song that was written, no, Bert Baccarat. You know? And don't give me wrong. These songs are great. Frank Sinatra. Ain't that a kick in the head? Ain't that a kick in the head? Loving your Frank Sinatra. I love that song, but that's like a, that's like a, that's like a, that's like a, that's like a, oh, a song that a white dude would write about his girl.

He's in love. What about that King Cole? He's black. I know, but he was in that genre. No? It does sound different. It sounds different. Unforgettable.

That's what you are. That's why darling. And then he came back and Natalie, and Natalie, uh, Natalie, uh, Natalie, uh, Natalie, uh, Cole got on it with her. Yeah, they did the duet. It was dope. It was amazing. You know what I'm saying?

So it's different. It's different. You know what I mean? It's different. It's a feeling. There's nothing wrong with it. You got guys like, you know who I was listening to earlier today?

What? George Michael. Which song? Faith, of course. Faith. No, one more try, I'd be my favorite George Michael song. And that's a, this is different.

Like, you're not going to really, like the sisters I know, you're not going to get the little jitterbug to the acoustic guitar. But it's dope though. That shit is so dope. It is.

It is. And I know all the games you play. Y'all make sure y'all watch this video. Yeah. Well, watch the video. No, no, not the faith's video. The video of this podcast. Oh, me?

I want them to see the joy in your face. I love that song. But what I'm saying is, if the feeling don't come, then I don't know what to tell Will I am. I get it. Listen, I get it.

I didn't give them the feeling. Will and the blackout. No, no, no, no. You give them the feeling. You give the feeling. But I do understand the desire to want that from the community, you know?

You can't ask them for it though. You can only get it when you give something. I got to be honest with you. I'd be honest with you. I was on TMZ for Mad Long. Mm-hmm. Mad Long. Seven years.

Yay came in. I have the yay thing. Now I was like, oh, look at him. I've been doing my same shit on there. But it's like I give them that feeling now we know. They know you now, but we weren't really watching The Bachelor. You might have been, you could have been on The Bachelor wearing a Malcolm X hat doing, I have a dream speech every single day.

But how are we going to know? All we know is that that show don't really, you know, And it's just crazy. Yeah. Yeah. And by the way, it's not that we don't accept Will I am. No, that like you said, you said it so well. This is something that's been on his heart.

This is something he wanted to get off his chest. He's been feeling this way. The community hasn't put this on him. I'm sorry. I don't know. Like when we, we're not playing boom, boom, boom, pow. Like, what I said? I don't know to tell me.

Can you imagine? At your next event, whatever it may be, when COVID, when we're done at, when we're out of this. Just drop a black eye. Drop that boom, boom, drop that boom, boom pile. And see how people respond. See how they respond. Like, just, just you want to, you go into barbershop and say, yo, man, and drop that boom, boom pile. Because remember, Fergie wraps on that.

Furgy wraps on boom, can you imagine people's faces? By the way, Fergie got joints. What was the joint that I love with Fergie and Ludacusus? Nah, not that one. Burk-a-licious. Wait, is that it? No, no, no, no, no, no. Glamorous life.

Glamorous life. L-A-M-R-O-U is on a fast. Up in the sky, any champagne. I can't hang by the glamorous. Ooh, the flousy, flousy. Love it. I'm just letting you have your moment.

It's dope. That's dope. Listen. Fergie wore hard. Fergie went hard. I'm fucking with it. It's good. Do you think Fergie was more accepted when she came out with that with those songs?

I mean, from my humps, I know that's black eyed piece, but that's what kind of gave her the jump start. London Bridge. London Bridge. Fergolicious, glamorous. We might have been kind of messing with Fergie a little bit more. and the blackout peas. Fergie, probably gonna get in

before, well, I am. Because I could drop because I could, I could drop that, I could drop that glamorous. And it's going to,

because even if they don't know at first, they're going to be like, oh, okay. But remember, that's Polo to Don. Yeah.

Like, Polo to Dawn. Like, Polo to Dawn. Pullo to Dawn. Pullo to Dawn. See, look. Look, man, Will, well, chill, well, you're good.

You good. You good. Bring Fergie back to the group. Here's the thing. Will can come to his barbecue. Of course. We're just not going to play your music in there. I was just about to say that.

That's the only thing. That's the only thing. We'll play some of you produced. Yeah. Maybe. Where has he produced? He's got a long list of stuff. Let's look.

Before we say that, before we say... No, he does. No, no. No, no. No. No. Before we say that, before we just... Watch.

just say that we will put something that Will I am produced on in the barbecue. Let's actually look. There's got to be one song. Okay. There's some good ones on this list. I'm not saying that they're not. Jackson, I'm not saying that they're not.

I'm not. Let's see. Let's look. Let's see. He got Carlos Santana. He got John. Oh, he got John Legend, Ordinary People. That's playing.

Wow. I didn't even know. That's a great song. Okay, John Legend, Ordinary People, that's getting played. There you go. You only need a one.

Ooh, he got pussycat dolls, beep. That's a, I like that song. I'm like, oh, let's see. You got some Ricky Martin joints. They're not going to go. I don't know, man. I think, I think that,

I think I'm not, for me, oh, Fergillicious is actually what I am. For me, I'm not going to lie. It seemed like, it seemed like the only will I am joint we playing is that ordinary people.

It seemed like, oh no, he got Nause, hip hop is dead. He did, he did something for the game. He did grand piano for Nikki Minaj. I did not know that.

Compton is a dope-ass song with that. So yeah, he got some, he got some, I'm not taking, oh, I want you,

uh, on the Final Forever album for Common. Great. You got some stuff. Okay. All right. Yeah. That's cool. So we stand corrected, Will I Am.

So there will be some of your music that will be played inside of there. And by the way, this is not the black people. We can't speak for all black people. It's some black people listen to this right now. It's going, yo, Will I Am is my favorite of all time. I love Will I am. I don't know, no, nigg. But it's definitely, they are.

there. I'm looking for more. Shout out, man. Shout out, Will I am. I'm glad he spoke. He did. You know, he did the Michael Jackson when they redid the Thriller 25 album? Did know that. He re-did P-Y-T. Yeah, he read-

Girl is mine. He's... You know what? Let's do something real quick. Let's do something real quick. Let's just say, we love you, Will I am. We love you. Apple D. He thinks he needs to hear that. Yeah. We love you, Will I am. We love you, Will I am. We do. We don't want

you to feel this way, you know? And we don't want to have to lie to you like we check in for that black IPs like that. But you are a genius in music. You are black man. You do your thing. It's gravy. And by the way,

any other black people that feel like they don't really getting a fair shake for the community, because there's a lot of people, you know, they feel like they're out there and they're not really getting their fair shape. You know? some of y'all we like some

we don't by the way that's how they feel about us like we're not a monolith yeah yeah that's right that's what makes makes us great

what did you have to do to get in the community was it I didn't have to do anything I have to do anything I have been unapologetically myself

this entire time I think I think people just started to come around once I was detached from the franchise. You know what? I take it back. I wrote an article, I wrote an essay a year after the day I was off contract about my finale and how I felt about it. And that really made the rounds and started to give me more like, okay, she wasn't happy with everything that happened. Okay. Maybe she is more than just that bachelorette. You know, okay, she doesn't. understand what happened and how we perceived it. See, I've never known, Rach, to be anything other than a fierce warrior. So whatever.

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This is President Trump is on a recorded call talking to the Georgia Secretary of State. And I don't think that I've rushed to click anything. There were short snippets. I did not want the snippets. I listen to the whole thing. What you hear on this recorded calls, not video, it's audio. You listen to the hour?

Listen to the whole hour. Oh, wow. Okay. The whole hour, baby. What you hear on this call is President Trump, Mark Meadows, and others. Basically, basically tell the Georgia

Secretarian's state, Georgia officials, that they need them to come up with 11,000 some odd votes, or at least tell them to announce that they are looking for these votes in order to overturn the election in Georgia. What you hear is the president repeatedly attempt to course, to intimidate, and really to belittle these. these election officials down there into thinking that their entire system is flawed,

that their entire system is wrong, and that they need to do something to rectify it, or deal with fallout from the American people, aka the Trumpers. Did you listen to the call? What did you think? Yeah, I didn't listen to the whole hour, but I definitely heard the highlights.

And it's crazy to me because just when you think he's done, Okay, he's accepted. You've tried to do this in the court system. You've been turned down even by the same, you know, Supreme Court justices that you put into office. They are refusing to hear anything that has to do with the election. You know, there are federal judges who you put into office, who you appointed, who are not, who are turning down the lawsuits that are being filed by your attorneys. You have tried absolutely everything. So I'm thinking, okay, he's accepted it. He's done. Maybe he'll run in 2024. And then this happened. And the thing is, Van, there's no way he didn't know that that call was being recorded, right? They knew that that call was recorded. Yet he still truly didn't care and threatened this government official, said whatever he wanted to say throughout all these allegations just because he doesn't want to lose. It's almost like if I say it enough, maybe somebody will start to believe me. If I keep saying it, it'll get like, if I keep saying it has to be true. Because the crazy thing is, he'll say, well, it's based on what I've heard.

He won't say it's evidence that we have. He won't say it's anything that he can prove. Nothing is matter of fact is, well, they're saying this with the machines. They're saying this with the suitcases and the stuffed balance. They're saying this with people not watching. Or at least that's just what I've heard. It's insane. And the audacity that this is the president of the United States,

States still currently, and this is how he's acting. I mean, Ben, you can't make this stuff up. He's, I was listening to Morning Joe this morning, and they were saying it. He's dumb as rocks. Like, it's beyond, it's not even a pride thing. He's just stupid. I can't. It's you, you're right.

And so is half of America, obviously, because they voted for him. So, I mean, what do you say with that? what do you say, Van? And this is the question I guess I have. How do you reason this? Because this isn't the first time we've heard Trump on tape admitting to something that in public he denies and he lies about. Now here you are saying these false things, these allegations that you know not to be true. And you're doing it all over again, but you still have people who are supporting you. You still have a number of senators and people in Congress that are trying to, basically take down our system, the democratic system,

to uphold things that they know not to be true just so they can back you. I mean, how do you reason this kind of thing when there's all this evidence that shows that President Trump is a certain way, yet you're still supporting him? I don't understand it. Well, a couple of things.

Number one is I think most people think that President Trump is a liar, but he's not that. He's not a liar. He is a myth of men. Maniac. And there is a difference. A liar is someone who manipulates the truth, in fact, in order to have it gain or benefit them in some way.

A mythomaniac is someone, loose degree, excuse me, loose definition of this. Mythomaniac is someone who actually believes their lies. one person is sinister, the other person is completely dangerous. All right. I think, to be honest, despite whatever musings we've heard before, despite what things are going on behind the scenes and we've heard that President Trump is blown up at Kushner, we've heard that President Trump thought that the election was in peril. I think that President Trump's cult of personality has so arrested him that he believes these things are true.

I believe that, too, that he thinks so. I'll tell you why that's so specifically dangerous. It's so specifically dangerous is because it's much easier to fight for the truth than it is to fight for a lie. See, you're only going to go so far for a lie Because at some point, the lie isn't going to be worth it. You're only going to go so far for a lie. At some point, you're going to look at the lie and you're going to be like, am I risking all of this about something that isn't true? This isn't true.

That's not true, should I say? But for the truth, most people go to the ends of the earth. Most people are going to go as far as they possibly can for something that they think is real. Right. Intellectually, President Trump might not believe these things are true. But emotionally, he has convinced himself. He has convinced himself that these things actually have happened.

He is arrogant enough to believe that he can't lose. Yes. So if he lost, there must be something afoot. And whatever you tell me is afoot, I'll believe it. Right. Whatever you say is wrong, I'll believe it. He continuously glosses over the fact that these people down in Georgia who are not the best people who have purged voter rolls and, you know, sort of been a part of their own voter shenanigans for a long time. Okay.

but he continuously dismisses the information that they have, like you said, to talk about things that he heard. Ain't no heard. We're talking about American democracy. Either you have evidence or you don't. So because of the conversation that I heard, I think we have a very precarious three weeks ahead of us. Okay.

if in fact the door is shut on President Trump, January 5th or 6th, whenever the Senate and Congress convened to certify the election, I'm not to a large degree. There is some part of me that is genuinely concerned about what President Trump's political death rattle is going to intel. Okay. As we speak or a couple of days before now, before this, there were B-52s flying over Iran and a show of strength as we kneel each other. You've had most former secretaries of defense come out and condemn the president.

It's an interesting thing that they did that. It's worrisome. It's almost like they're trying to wave a flag. or, you know, sound an alarm. Right. About something. I'm not too concerned about this. But I am concerned that he thinks,

especially with this tape surfacing, that he'll go to jail. Yeah, definitely fearful of a lawsuit. And that he's going to go crazy. So who knows? If I could tell you one thing, it was comedy. It was a lot of comedy. on that tape.

But more than anything, I got the sense of someone who is afraid, who is confronted maybe for the first time in a long time that his lies might not be true, that his myth might be actually a myth.

And what do you hold on to when you realize that your truth is a lie? What do you do? We're going to find out. You do what you've been doing these next couple of days. You do what you do as long as you have power. You hold on to that.

It's just crazy. It's just crazy you can say things out your mouth that say, I love this country and I'm fighting for America and I'm about the people, but then you do things that undermine public faith or, I mean, undermine public faith in the electoral system, just like you did with the public health system, which is part of the reason we're in where we are now with COVID. I mean, it's crazy. I'm you just scared me

you're scared no well after listening to you talk I read that about you know former secretary of secretaries of defense coming forward because they don't know what he is going to do that but now hearing you say it

it scares me let me tell you what you got to do when you feel scared okay let me tell you what you got to do when you feel scared you got to put your hand over your heart and you got a call on the name of Jesus. You got a, you got to hit your knees and you got to say, Jesus Christ in heaven. Lord, I am putting my future in your hands. I am right here, Lord. I open my heart. I open my soul up to who you are.

Listen, I'm telling you, I've been calling on Jesus. Y'all, look, a lot of people listening is like, Van, why are you bringing religion to the podcast? Look, I've been going crazy. Been going crazy mentally. So it's been calling on Jesus. There's nothing wrong with that. Well, you think there's nothing wrong with it, but people are going to be like, oh, man, I've been calling on Jesus. It's not wrong. We should be open about your faith and what you believe. It's weird when Jesus answers. That's the funny part.

Because you'll call on Jesus and you'll talk. And then you'll be like, hey, man, what's up? And you're going on? That's how he sounds to me. That's how it sounds to you. He sounds different to everybody else. Can I be honest with you? How does Jesus sound to you?

Give me your Jesus voice. When you call on me, he answers, what does he sound like? Rachel. Ooh. Rachel? Wait, wait, wait, can I be honest with you when you said

you got to close your eyes? I thought you were going to be like, and you got a call on Moes Burkman. Mos Burmint. Hey, I'll be honest with you. I got to be honest with you. It's one or the two. I was like, okay.

Mosbergman. See, we should probably send Moes Bergman to deal with Trump. Look, the most seriously, though, what we can the most we can hope for is that there is a peaceful transition of power

and a transition of power that American can build on. I mean, President Trump has already cost us so much in terms of our readiness and, you know, foreign affairs

by not having an orderly transition to the Biden-Harris administration. hopefully that hasn't hamstrung them to the degree that we don't, we don't hit the ground running when they take over on the 20th because the reality is, there's a lot to be done. So hopefully there is enough there. I will say, though, that to the Republicans, and I'm sure there's some Republicans that listen to the podcast,

you're getting exactly what you deserve. Kemp in Georgia, all of the Republicans that, took their patriotism, that took their decency, that took their conscience, and tucked it deep within themselves for a political game, the backstabbing that you're getting right now being publicly flogged by a whiny brat who happens to reside in the White House, the White House, you deserve that. Yeah. And for the ones that are going to continue with this charade, Ted Cruz, Holly, the rest of you guys that are going to get into all these theatrics here this week, your time is coming to when a knife gets dug into your back and then twist it at all because this has nothing to do with partisan politics.

This has to do with whether or not you're willing to put America where it should, be, which is ahead of your personal political goals. So President Trump is actually doing the world of service in that he's exposing everyone who's completely politically full of shit. Now, some of you are so deep into this that you're not going to see it no matter what. But there is another group of people who are watching this who may be less tied to either side. And hopefully they'll see that lacking conviction and lacking sort of any sense of decency and whatever. Hopefully they'll see that that makes poor leaders.

You would hope so, Van. I feel like the people, the senators who are being outspoken, the members of Congress or just the GOP that are being outspoken are people who have political aspirations to run for president. And that's what they're doing right now is trying to hold on to the 70 million people that voted for Trump. And that's why they're continuing

with the charades. So it's great to be hopeful that they would see, you know, the light and to do what's right. But they've already shown their hand and how they're acting right now by undermining our democracy with these charades.

It is what it is. And they'll carry it into their run for presidency and for 2024. It's ridiculous. It's crazy. Kevin Durant. You see this? He's out?

No, I didn't see this. He got it again? They say maybe it's contact tracing or something like that. I don't think he's symptomatic, but he's out. He's going to miss some time, COVID-19. No, I didn't see that story. Sorry, I missed that one. What are your thoughts?

I hope that he doesn't have it, and I hope that if he does, that he gets well soon. Okay, let's talk about the Durant thing real quick. So look, so So let's talk about the Durant thing I just want everybody to know this was not on our rundown of topics To talk about it I feel like I'm being ambushed at the moment

Just want to put that out there Let's talk about the Duran thing real quick Because we keep dancing around it We keep dancing around your thoughts about Michael Jackson That's what we keep dancing around You wouldn't get into that We want to get into Michael We can talk about Michael Jackson right now

We can talk about Michael Jackson right now And I'm willing to suffer this slings in there So you dated Durant at Texas, right? I did not date Kevin Durant. Why do people keep telling me that you dated Durant? Did Kevin tell you that? Aren't you friends with Kevin? Exactly.

Kevin didn't tell you that. And you're friends with Kevin. Why would I? I wouldn't say friends, but like we know each other. We like, we DM. I know, don't Chris Rouser me. The guy's a nice guy. The guy's a nice guy who if you send him a DM, he'll answer,

Kevin Durant's a cool guy. I'm just asking you never dated Durant. Why do people think that you dated? Because when I was on The Bachelorette, I think it was a great storyline. We're both on ABC, and he was on ABC getting his first ring, and I was on ABC trying to get my first ring,

and they knew we went to Texas together, and we did know each other at Texas. So I think it was an interesting story, because the story that ran is insane. It was like... Wait, so they lied? I don't know who... I don't know who...

I don't know who they did. Do I know, Kevin, or a new movie? him because I don't talk to him anymore. Absolutely. You know what I mean? We were at Texas at the same time. Texas is big, but the black community is small and we all pretty much know each other, especially if you're on the scene. I knew Kevin. I hung out with Kevin for sure, but we weren't dating. No. So they just made some shit up. Well, they made up that Kevin and I were a serious in a serious, somebody did. We were in a serious relationship and I left him to pursue my law career, which is, That's a great narrative for me, but that's not true. I was even cool with Kevin when I was in law school and even after. So, you know. Was there any romantic thing between you and Kevin Doreen?

Okay. All right. No. All right. Well, look, hey, hey, guess what? Out of people's business. All right? What is romance?

Right. I could be a little bit. No, I'm not out of people's business. This is, hey. Wait, I'm like it out of people's business after I jumped two feet in all the way into it. Because this is the thing, but this is different though. God, that's so long ago, though. Like, college is, I'm 35.

You know what I mean? Like, clear that up. That's very important. I'm like, that's so long. That's like another lifetime. It is like. Kevin doesn't know me and I don't know him like that anymore. I know.

But there was a whole line of questioning that I was going to go down if, in fact, you had dated Kevin in Texas. No. But you didn't. You didn't date them. You guys never dated. You know, college stuff. Okay. So here's the thing.

Moving on from that, that's just a headline that popped up. I want to shout out somebody right now, as Rachel looks semi-disapprovingly at me. M.F. Doom passed away. Now, you guys might not know who M.F. Doom is. But I can tell you one thing. He's a guy that if you love hip-hop, you love MF Doom. So I just say this right now. Apparently here, Doom had passed away back in October.

Oh, wow. Yeah. But his people decided just to go ahead and announce it a couple of days ago. There's no such thing as a rapper who is lyrically proficient and who loves hip-hop who hasn't been influenced by M.F. Doom. So M.F. Doom, amazing lyricist, amazing rapper. not for everyone not for everyone but for the people that he is for

he was an integral part of your love for this craft and a love for that culture not for everybody for the ones who he was for he was for them

put it on let it play go for hours the rhyme schemes are crazy so what kind of like Like rapper, is he? What you mean? In my mind, I think of like a Tech Nine. Is that how he was? I mean, to that degree in terms of, I mean, the way he mixed the words up,

it's difficult to describe it. But it's incredibly lyrical. You know, Tech Nine is, he's got a flow all of his own. I guess you could say they were in the same family. But, you know, M.F. Doom would do things that, you know, other rappers that are super lyrical with Marvel at, just with the way he kind of put things together.

So a lot of wordplay, very, very heavy, heavy on the wordplay, all about the wordplay, you know? So I worked with some of the greatest producers, work with Madlib. I remember Danger Mouse, and MF Doom had something, Danger Doom came out. It's like 2007 or something like that,

but anyway, always on the cutting edge of hip-hop, always innovative, and was doing it a very, very long time. Career spans from the mid-90s all the way up until the time that he passed away. So rest and peace of MF Doom, the culture mourns you even still. Okay, let's take a break. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business.

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All over smooth, all day comfort, vanity fair lingerie. Find yours at Target today. Okay, look. Rachel, is there anything else? You said you wanted to ask me about Michael Jackson. You want to talk about Michael Jackson right now? Let's talk about Michael Jackson. Let's talk about Michael Jackson.

Since you feel like talking about the relationship, by the way, you just said so a wild bombshell to me. It makes me look at everything different that the Kevin Durant thing was just made up. Oh, that story completely is fabricated as to the type of, you know, friendship that we had, a relationship that we had with one another. It's like, when I read it, I laughed.

And then I was like, oh, my God, but I hope he doesn't think that I'm out here telling people that this is our story. You know what I mean? Interesting. But, God, that's such a long time ago, though. But when Van and I were prepping for this podcast and you know like you do you do pre podcast because you're trying to see you get your

chemistry together and your flow one of the topics that came up was michael jackson and specifically leaving neverland i think is what we were talking about now i am a big michael jackson fan man you are too yes so i believe it was talking discussing whether or not in leaving never never land what was asserted by the two gentlemen in that documentary whether or not we believe them and whether or not it was true. Van, we differ on what we believe from that documentary. What do you believe?

I believe that one of them was not truthful and one was. So you think in a documentary, I'm assuming that you think that Wade Robson wasn't truthful and the other gentleman was. Correct. That's how you feel. That's how I feel. And you all have to understand this is hard for me.

I'm a person who legitimately passed out when Michael Jackson passed away. Begged my parents to pay for me to get to L.A. so I could attend the funeral. Big Michael fan, thought he was a part of my family growing up. I have a lot of memorabilia. So to accept this, it's hard for me. When the accusations happened before and he was in trial, didn't believe it. Found not guilty. That's what I'm going with.

He was the court of law found him not guilty. He is innocent. But this documentary struck me in a different way. Wade sued him four years after he died for money, for money. To me, I have to question your credibility when it comes to that. Never admitted anything. And I just want to preface this by, I'm not being insensitive to anybody who is a victim of sexual abuse. We're merely talking about our.

what we thought watching this documentary because I feel like this might hit people in a different way. I just felt like some of the things that he said didn't add up. Now the other guy, I cannot remember his name at this point, no disrespect. I believe his entire story when it came to Michael, the kid who was in the commercials with him, who traveled with him, who no longer talks to his mother

for how she handled that situation. I believe him, 100%. Here's the thing. Okay. and it's a really difficult thing, right? Yes, it is. Here's the reality. The reality is that most of the time, fandom is going to lead people to make their decisions in this situation, right?

A lot of the time. So I've heard people make all kinds of cases, right? Mm-hmm. I've heard people make the case that the FBI had, had investigated Michael Jackson for X amount of years, never found anything. You've heard that, I'm sure. Okay. I've heard people talk about the fact that Michael Jackson was found innocent of this in a court of law.

I've heard people on the other side say that Michael Jackson settled a couple of lawsuits that were involved in this. One is public. We know that. One is public. You know it. And that it became a running narrative in his career with different sets of children. therefore there must be something to it, right? And when you watch leaving Neverland

and you watch the detail by which if you watch the detail that these things are described in, it's difficult to come away and call somebody a liar if you watch this. Here's the thing. And this is a big thing and it's an ugly thing and it's a nasty thing. There is a possibility that I am incapable

of detaching from my emotional connection to Michael Jackson. Okay. That you are. That is what's happening. That I am. That is what's happening. Uh-huh. There's, and it's,

and I'm a human being, and in being a human being, I'm inherently flawed. Mm-hmm. There's a possibility that I'm at a point in my life to where I hear, certain things, and they just trigger joy. They trigger feelings.

They trigger memories. They trigger all of these things, right? And there's something about other guys that doesn't exist with this. Like right away, I see Bill Cosby and I go, no. Right away, I see R. Kelly and I go, no. There's something different with Michael Jackson. First of all, you don't see or hear him a lot. But when I hear Michael Jackson's music or when I see Michael Jackson, people posting him, for some reason, I don't have the reflex that says disgusting, terrible, get away from him.

As far as whether or not what was on finding Neverland. is true or not, it's difficult to say that it isn't true because you have to re-examine the way you look at any victim and their story if you were to stand out, you know, on that ledge. But the scarier thing is, and the thing that I have to, like, confront as a man and as a person and as someone who wants to see everyone do well, is what if it doesn't matter? matter if it's true to me. That's a problem. What if it,

what does that mean? What does that say about me? What does that say about the way I view? What does that say about us? Like, because if, if in fact, you, if you listen to those stories, you look, you listen to stories of kids that were meticulously and intentionally groomed, over a period of time

and then had this big thing sprang on them. Well, in the same way that they were falling in love with Michael Jackson being right next to him, I was falling in love with Michael Jackson because he seemed a million miles away. He seemed to be representative of this sort of stardom,

this excellence, this blackness, and this feeling. Michael Jackson isn't a person, He's a feeling. Like you see him spin around and you feel like Jesus Christ, I'm alive. You hear him go, he-he, and you think, everybody, the people that will,

the people that are still listening to the music, there's an experiment that you can do for this. There's a song called Can You Feel It on the Jackson's album? And I'm getting chills right now. There's a song called Can You Feel It? Now, if this is a test, I use this as an emotional test and I have for a long time, the song comes on, do, do, do, do, and then Germain comes in.

Peerty there, put it up a da-da-da-do-do-da-d everywhere, and it's fine. You're like, fine. Can you feel it? Can you feel it? Can you feel it? And then all of a sudden, Michael Jackson comes in and goes, all the children and you're like

Jesus Christ and like there is a chasm of difference what you just heard you were grooving there's a chasm of difference between what you just felt and what you're feeling

now and it's like for me personally I get it I can even step back and go yo I'm wrong but it's, it's, it almost makes you feel disgusting.

And I'm not saying that by the way, I've made up my mind on any of it. I'm saying that I'm operating off the fact that if it were true, and I knew for 100%, not whether or not I would still support the music, or not whether or not I would still do any of that stuff, because it's not like I listen to Michael Jackson a lot right now.

I don't. Hardly ever. But the question is, if that feeling will go away. So this is a thing. And that's why I was like, you know, I don't want to make it seem like I'm, you know, not regarding the, you know, Wade's story.

I just have issues with some of the things that I saw, you know, when I watched it. But I think what I understand what you're saying about separating the music and what Michael meant to you growing up versus what you start learning as an adult or the accusations that you're hearing as an adult. You mentioned Bill Cosby. For me, Cliff Huxbable is somebody who's totally different from Bill Cosby because I grew up watching the Huxibles. I grew up thinking I was a part of their family.

So then to learn the person behind Cliff Huxable, that character is this monster, it's hard for me. When I see the Cosby Show come on, I can't help but think of. what Bill Cosby is when I watch that and it takes something away for me. And when I listen to Michael's music, I still listen to it, you know, if, you know, from time to time because it gives me that same joy. But in my mind, I think of the things that I know now because one of the things that really got to me in that documentary. I would say that the young man's name is James Safechuck. It's Wade Robinson and James Safechuck.

So James Safechuk is, let's name him. story really, really resonated with me. One of the things that got to me was when we were kids, or I was a kid when the OJ verdict was dropped and when he was accused of being guilty, accused of the murder and then found not guilty. I didn't, it was too young to understand the gravity of everything that was going on. I just saw this black man being accused of murdering a white woman and it was OJ and what he represented to the community. And I was like, he's, not guilty. Now as an adult, I've seen it a totally different way and I'm like, oh my gosh,

OJ was absolutely involved with that. As a child, when Michael was accused of molesting the child, the one he ended up settling with, it was like, oh, he settled, you know, like he just wanted to get this, this, I don't even think I understood it because it was in the early 90s. I was too young for that. To watch never, uh, was it never, never leaving, never living, um, neverland. Leaving Neverland. Leaving Neverland. Yeah. To watch leaving. Neverland and to see that there were depositions that were taken in regards to. It's not like there was an accusation of Michael paid him off. They went through the process and these depositions came out of

bodyguards, drivers, maids telling these stories who were losing their entire, like putting their career on the line to tell their version of what they witnessed or what they saw, what they heard, really stuck with me. I never knew that. I never knew that it was taken that far. And like maybe this is my, me putting my attorney hat coming in, but the fact that they were deposed

and they admitted those things and then the settling came, it got to me. That was new information to me. To hear this man, James, talk about how he has no relationship with his mother because his mother was accepting

concert tickets and meeting these superstars, living out her best, life through she was being groomed yes through what her son was able to give to Michael whether it's friendship whatever

whatever it may have been and he no longer has a relationship with her let me made me feel like wow like something happened something happened there for him to no longer talk to the woman who gave him birth who he'd had a previous relationship with

it just it just all that that documentary hit me in a way a deeper way than anything ever has with Michael. And it changed my perception. And I have to say, it's not that I don't get the joy. For you, it's can you fill it? For me, it's man in the mirror. You know, when that video played and that tear,

that single tear rose down Desmond Tutu's face, and they multiply it all those times on the screen. I used to cry watching that video as a child to see the joy people felt at a Michael Jackson concert. That video, that song gives me a feeling. It still does, but I think of that documentary at the same time. And I think about those individuals that were affected by Michael. I can't.

And it's sad. I mean, I think about, I think about, I did. Well, my innocence has been gone. But once again. But doesn't Michael make you feel like a kid? Does it Michael make you feel innocent? It does for me.

It did. And what it made me feel, Michael Jackson felt infinite. it felt like there was nothing that Michael Jackson couldn't do. He felt superhero. He felt magical. He felt untouchable. He felt singularly gifted in a way that like you can't really articulate. And what you really don't want to come to terms with more than anything is that the world does have walls.

Is that the way that you looked at the world when you were a kid, that that's not really what it is. that there's work that has to be done to keep people safe, that there's work that has to be done to do all of this stuff. And you can't moonwalk it away, you can't spin it away. Moonwalker.

And you can't, like all of that stuff, right? See, that's taking away the innocence. But that's what I'm saying that's a, yeah, I mean, to a degree, yeah, there was something that you believed about the world. And even like when you, when you go to Disneyland and you, I remember when I went to Disneyland, I went to Disneyland as a kid,

I go to Disneyland. And I remember feeling in a weird way when I realized the castle wasn't real that like it was a statute. And you start to feel like, hey, you know, whatever. So it's hard. And by the way, there are going to be tons of people who are going to listen to this.

They're going to tell us about all kinds of inconsistencies in the documentary. They're going to be other people that are going to say, hey, Michael Jackson is a monster and you're a bad person if you don't, you know. Yeah. I am being as honest as same.

I possibly can be about it. Same. Glad we talked about that because I've been hanging over the head of the podcast right there. A couple of things

apparently. By the way, yeah, exactly. By the way, to anyone who has survived sexual assault

in any way, I realize right now that what you might have heard, parts of it, might have been triggering or

disappointing to you as you hear us talk about this. I'm just being as real as I can be. Well, I can tell you right now is despite

what was just said is that I will continue in my life to be an advocate to offer a platform for people to tell their stories. And also, if need be, to be an Avenger for them. You know, in times. So, and if you're someplace and it's a situation, it's got to feel ridiculous if that's the guy. It's just hard. It's just difficult. All right. We'll end on Matt, oh, real quick, before we go, 2020 was a shit year. Do you have an unexpected ally of the year? Oh, God, I forgot about this.

Yes, unexpected ally of the year for 2020. I mean, I don't know. Go say yours and then maybe I'll think about it. I don't have one. Okay, there we go. Very upset about it. Couldn't think of an unexpected ally. We are out of here.

There's a lot of people that did a lot of great things. things, but I think the unexpected ally of 2020 has to be you. You survived it. You're here. Let's make next year a better year. That's great. Put your thing caps on. Take them off. Take them off. I'm so emotionally disheveled.

Take your thing caps off. Do not stop learning. I'm Van Lathen. I'm Rachel Lenzis.