Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Azmat Khan and the Latest From Afghanistan

Episode Date: August 27, 2021

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay welcome investigative journalist Azmat Khan to the podcast to help contextualize the ongoing crisis in Afghanistan (19:55). Then: Sha’Carri Richardson is staying in the news for all the wrong reasons (50:03), Van makes the case for Ray J to take over at ESPN (1:06:10), and Martin Luther King Jr. is coming to 'Fortnite' (1:23:58). Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay  Guest: Azmat Khan Producers: Trudy Joseph and Donnie Beacham Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Higher Learning is on. It is I, Van Lathen. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. Rachel. Don't forget the junior. Don't forget the junior, Van Lathen Jr.

It's me, Van Lathen, J.R. Remember that one? Like, remember that song by Lil Wayne, Birdman, J.R? Remember that? In the capital, too. The Birdman, Jew. When are we singing two different songs? We are seeing two different songs.

But the reality is that it was Birdman J.R. Birdman J.R. and I am Lathan J. That's what I am. How was your week being? Did you see him? Did you see Wayne on, uh-cho's uncomfortable conversations?

Yeah, I saw it. Did you watch it? I don't watch it. I watched a little bit of it. But it, man, it just, to me,

the fact that he had Wayne on there and it went the way it went, it just, Ocho show was for white people. It was for white people. Because that, a conversation on mental health, though, that was,

that one was for white. I really, I got to go back and listen to it. I really haven't. It just wasn't. It didn't, it had zero cultural relevance. It should talk about like the stigma of black, of mental health and the black community. You talk about that, but at the same time, you talk about it, but at the same time, there are questions to be asked, and I don't feel like Acho asked them. You know, there are other questions that you ask. You are his toughest critic. No, I'm not. Oh, you are. Have I, have I even been on Acho like that? There are things that Acho has done. Shout out Manuel Acho.

There are things that Acho is done that we really, because. that got Adam about, but you know that he's a well-meaning brother with a different perspective. So why stay on him? You asked me about it. I didn't come on here. I did. Yeah. I was just curious, you know, it was a, it was a, it was Wayne.

We were just talking about Wayne. It's Louisiana. It was mental health. Black folks. I just was like, oh, I meant to ask you about that. If you caught that. I'm going to go back and watch your episode again. Your episode was really the one.

Interracial. That was the best. Who else was on there with you? I saw Lindsay. other day. I saw Lindsay the other day. Yeah. Who was she? They shortly broke up after that. They broke up right after that. They were engaged and everything. Who was she with when you saw her? She was by herself. Yeah, never knew. But she's rumored to be dating somebody else. Yeah, probably like, I don't know. Who, who's she going to date now? I don't know. Who do you mean who she going to date now?

Probably like Lindsay Vaughn and 21 Savage or something like that. Come on now. You don't think Lindsay Vaughn will fuck 21 Savage. When I look at it was Tiger Woods and then it was P-K. She just keeps- She ain't going to go to 21 Savage. It's like it's a certain type of like black man. Do you understand what's happening there? What? She's sliding down towards 21 Savage. Connect the dots for me, Van.

Okay. So you go. What's in between? Yeah. So, look. Lead me to 21 Savage. By the way, it wasn't just Tiger, because it was a dude that was like, like a coach for the Rams in there too.

Remember him? Oh, no. He was a dude. That's a short-lived. Yeah, exactly. But she's engaged to P.K. Is a dude that was a coach for the Rams in there too. Okay, so this is what you do.

It starts off Tiger. That is entree to black, right? You get in there and you go, hey, this is a guy that had sex with all the persons and who those wages is in the world. But you can still bring him to your parents' house and you can go skiing and veil and all of that. It's Tiger Woods. He's, Tiger Woods is not even,

he's not even really black. He's white plus. Well, he's coblation. He's, he's named it. He's, he's, he's, he's just an extra shade of, of tan. All right. Then you move to the Rams coach. All right.

Rams coach is a different guy. You meet him. You guys hanging out. You guys are in a relationship. Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. So we're going through sports. Then we go to P.K. Subon. Now, you're in a sport that nobody cares about.

You've gone all the way to hockey, a sport that's obscure that nobody cares about it anymore. I love... We don't care, but... People don't care about hockey like they used to, okay? Okay. Now, there's only two more things that can happen. Two? Two.

There's only two more things that can happen. Either she can go to random baseball player, which I don't think is going to happen. I think she's going to skip over baseball. I think now who she really wants, is somebody who is super duper down for her somebody that a clap that's still for her somebody that'll beat somebody for somebody that's going to get Lindsay Vaughn tatted on their neck

now she's put she's dipped her toe into the to the chocolate already now it's time to fully splash in some people in between no it's not going to go straight she don't go straight to 21 21 it's going to be so weird when like after the S piece, you see a picture of Lindsay Vaughn and 21 Savage, and they're going to be together. 21 Savage is the type either, okay, let's say, let's say it's not 21 because he is pretty gangster.

Let's say. There's got to be in between, yeah. Let's say, you got to give her a singer or something. No, no, no, no, she's not doing that. Because if she pops up with Jason Derulo or somebody like that, it's even worse. No, no, come on. That's, that doesn't even fall in line. I said connect the dots.

Let's see. So he's not even on the page. So I would say that it's probably going to be, if we're going to do a round. now. Drake's not going to go there. Hmm. Who will, which rapper will Lindsay Vaughn date next? If it's not 21 Savage. You're not going to see something like that coming from a Jay Cole. Wouldn't be received by the community. Kanye would be one, but Kanye's not going to date her. Kanye is going for like high fashion models. Like, like so trying to think, I'm trying to think of a rapper that's

kind of right. Oh, you know, Kyle? You know the rapper. or Kyle Kyle. Kyle would be perfect. You know, Kyle. You get a guy like Kyle. You know,

you remember Kyle? You guys don't remember Kyle? He's a rapper, but he's clean cut. You know what I mean? No. No. No.

Lindsey Vaughn is with Kyle. No. Lizzie Vaughn is with Kyle. That's Kyle. Look, that's Kyle. No. Hey, Kyle. Get at Lindsay Vaughn,

bro. Lindsay Vaughn. Lindsay Vaughn. Lindsay fine. Lindsay fine. Don't get it twisted now. Don't get it twisted I say like an ASAP,

FERG and then it's 21st. Ferg and Savage is basically the same. No, it's not. Yes, they are. Furr and Savage is basically the same. Furg about that motherfucking bullshit. You know, I learned,

I've recently been watching the hype and I learned some things about FERG. Ferg went to fashion school. He, like, really was into, and I was like, wow, I was really impressed. Work. Put them in the dirt.

Or as my co-worker said, one of my EP said, I believe she's dating ASAP Rocky now. Yeah, people used to say that. People used to say ASAP Rocky. Apparently people still say it. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you?

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Visit weathertech.com today. Well, I remember when Purple Smoke first dropped, man, like Purple Smoke was the type of song that could get you high without you even smoke. And I used to be during that time, I was giving the TMZ tour. And so what I would do is I would go and I would give, The TMC tour was at Grom's Chinese Theater. And then I worked, I lived at the corner of Franklin and LaBrea, so I could walk home between tours. So you get on the tour bus and you'd be like, Jesus Christ, I don't want to do this.

But then as soon as you would get into the tour, you're performing, your people are asking questions. It's like a great time. You're having a lot of fun. You're doing the tour. It's like you're on all that. And then right after they get off the bus, you got to walk back home

and remember that you're a tour guide again and you're 31, 32 years old and it's weighing on you. So I had different anthems that I would play to get back to the bus. And like these anthems were in songs that inspired me or zone me out. One was ADHD by Kendrick Lamar.

Okay, good one. Oh, that would be ready for a tour. And then another one was when that purple smoke came out. that probleau and what rocky was on there was like all these guys from Harlem they got to texaswag and i was into asap rocky ever ever since then but i remember when he first was on tmz i think kelly called him ASAP rocky i was nah man it's ASAP you got a whole whole crew ASAP i know you're not down with TMZ anymore but it would be really fun for you to like go back and do a tour i would love to

sit on your tour bus yes i would i would love to see you do a tour yeah i'm not doing it but But it used to be fun. I gave tours for so many people, man. I gave tours for some of the... I bet you were fantastic. It was great. I would love to have been on one. I used to,

I used to, because a lot of Canadians and Australians would take the tour. And I had Canadian and Australian jokes on deck. On deck. I learned so much stuff about different cultures and different people that were on the tour bus. They would tell me about Canadians and stuff. Like, do you know what? the name of Burger King is in Canada.

Burger what? It's called Hungry Jacks. And how do you know it's a Burger King? Because they got the same type of stuff. It's like Canadian Burger King, Hungry Jacks. But it's not Burger King. It's just a different thing. It's owned by the same thing.

It's a hungry Jacks. Are you listening to me? I'm trying to tell you something cultural. Shout out to all my Canadians out there. I learned all about Putin. Do you know Putin? Yeah, I actually do. Have you ever had it before?

I would never eat that. Why? I'm too picky. Look, do you tell me, you mean to tell me that Hungry Jacks is not Canadian Burger King? That's the Hungry Jack signal. That's the Hungry Jack sign. Honestly, if I went to Canada and I saw that, I would think it was like a McDowls. Right.

No, that's the Hungry Jack sign. Hungy Jacks is Canadian. and I would learn this because I'd be sitting around and we'd be in traffic there's no way to go there's nowhere to go and I'm talking to them

I'm like what fast food do y'all eat in Canada because when I was up in Canada I went into a KFC and it was all white people working there and I was skeptical of the chicken but then I ate it and it was good right I was in Thunder Bay Ontario is where I was when I went to this KFC

and they were like oh man we got the same stuff y'all got of course we got all that stuff but sometimes it's a little different They were telling me about Tim Hordons, and then they told me about Hungry Jacks. And me and this entire bus, I kept coming back to this entire ride, I kept coming back to the same guy. I'd be like, Hungry Jack's got a whopper. And then he would tell me about the Hungry Jack's Wopper.

And by the end of the tour, every time I was- They call it a Wopper. I can't remember if they call it a Wopper or not. But by the end of the tour, every time I said Hungry Jax, the bus would like lose it. Because I'd show them like a big celebrity. Oh, look, look, look. It's Leonardo DiCaprio. Hey, Leo, you ever been to Hungry Jury?

Jacks before and then everybody on the bus would laugh. Last TMZ tour story I'll tell you. We saw David Beckham and I let the bus so David Beckham was off the tour route. Like David Beckham was in his car, right?

And we're not supposed to go into Beverly Hills. We weren't supposed to go. No, we weren't supposed to go. No, we weren't supposed. Okay, so you could go into Beverly Hills proper like where all the stores are and stuff like that. But for some reason, we could not go past the Beverly Hill sign driving. We couldn't do it, right?

We were supposed to, you were supposed to go up into Sierra, up and to pass, past, uh, sunset towers and then come back down and take the tour, you know, to take Doheny down and you do it the whole night.

Anyway, um, but we pulled up next to David Beckham. And I looked over and I was like, and he was being so funny. I looked over and I was like, I looked at him and I'm on a mic so everybody can hear me and he can hear me. Everybody on the street can hear me.

And I'm like, do you think I don't recognize you? And then he burst into laughter. And they were like, and they were like, who is it? Who is it? And I'm like, you guys, international soccer star David Beckham is and the bus went so nuts. And then he pulled off. And I was like, oh, we did not get away from David Beckham. He didn't wave to the bus.

I was like, you guys, it's your tour. Should we follow him? Which you're not supposed to do. And they were like, yeah. So we followed David Beckham. We got up next to him. And we were like, Dave, I brought this girl from the back. I was like, and she was crying her eyes out.

I was like, she just wants one wave from the sexiest motherfucker on earth. And he waved in the book. us went nuts. And we didn't we want to. Y'all see why I would want to be on Vance tour? Who's the biggest star? Okay, last question on TV. Who's the biggest star you ever saw doing the tour?

Rihanna or Lady Gaga? Like, I stopped the bus. One of those two. Like, I stopped the bus. I stopped the bus for Lady Gaga. And Lady Gaga, nicest person ever. Like, she allowed people to get off the bus and come greet her. Oh, my God.

In front of the chateau. Like I stopped the bus and I let people go and greet Lady Gaga. That's really nice. And then they were there for so long. It took like 35 or 40 minutes. I was like, hey, I got something to do. So I'm only going to give you guys half the tour. And then we're going back.

They were like, fuck it. We don't care. So it was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun. Do you get a tip when you see a star? Like, did you get a bonus? I used to always get tips. I'm in a bonus.

Like, does TMZ give you a bonus if you have a star siding? TMZ gives absolutely zero bonuses. like TMC you get nothing like you like you TMZ you get a pat on the back like TMZ gives absolutely zero bonuses for stuff like that

but I did take a lot of pride in being one of the people that helped get that tour off the ground because at first shout out to Alex Gettling oh my God man we were up against it like technical difficulties there were things

like we had to continuously edit the tour and it was a great sense of pride for me that I was a part of a startup that simply would not exist if not for me. Like if it. You should be proud. Me,

Alex Gettlin, uh, my boy Keith. I've never told you guys the story about Keith. I did tell you a story about Keith. Keith was so mad he didn't get a tip. He followed a customer into the bathroom and demanded his tip. Um,

I've never told that story. And he was summarily fired. Yeah. Keith. Yeah. I think so. So we would, we would, we would do these. we would play games on the bus and when you play games on the bus

the game would be like is a celebrity going to flip the bus the camera off or the celebrity going to wave finger of the wave was the game and if you won the finger of the wave game you would win a shirt so a t-shirt me I would just end up giving away t-shirts on a tour if you were getting off the tour bus and you were like yo could I have a t-shirt I'd be like here like because I had so many t-shawn around my crib I'm like take all these shirts

Anyway, so Keith had gone on the tour And he Had played a game with the person And they won a T-shirt And when they were getting off the bus I guess they didn't tip him And normally you don't get tips Sometimes I literally had tours where

I would make $500, $600, $600 on tips And then you have And a guy comes off Gives you a $100 bill And it's 20, 20, 20, 20. 20, 10, 5, 20, 20. And then you have a tour where you rocked it and you make $35. It's just the way that it goes.

You can't be mad at them. They're, you know what I mean? So this person gets off the bus and I guess they don't tip Keith. Keith gets off of the bus and says, takes a picture with them and then because you have to take pictures after the tour and all that stuff too. Takes a picture with them and then says, yo, come on, man. You want a t-shirt. This is my job.

You're not going to tip me. Come on, man. Like, seriously. Like, this, I work on tips. You're not going to give me a tip. And the guy's like, no, whatever. The guy goes to the bathroom. Keith follows this person to the bathroom.

Like, follows this. I don't know what. Keith is my guy. He was super hilarious and absolutely fucking awesome to be around. I don't know what the fuck got into him. He snapped. He snaps. He follows the guy to the bathroom.

And I remember just getting a text like, Van, go on Yelp. And the dude, I wonder if the Yelp review is still up. The dude had yelped it. I must have told this story on the podcast before. No. Like the dude had Yelped the entire experience and talked about it and once started. And they fired Keith. They let Keith go.

Where is Keith now? Keith, where is Keith? Keith was my man. Like Keith and Keith was at first, he was the star to her. Then after that it was like. like, van, it's all on you. And I put that tour on my mother fucking back. I was featured all in travel shows and all like all newspaper writeups. They thought I was going to do that shit for the rest of the rest. I remember that I was like, yo, it was like, it was like the second contract

time was coming around and it was like, yeah. And we expanded role on the tour. I was like, expanded role. I'm on TV, baby. That's over. That's over. Okay. Hire Learning Show for you today. So obviously there were developments in Afghanistan today, and we wanted to make sure that you guys had the proper context for those. So we have somebody joining us today. As Matt Kahn, she is an award-winning investigative journalist, a New York Times contributing writer, a Carnegie Fellow,

and a professor of journalism at Columbia University. She has reported extensively on Afghanistan for some time now, and is going to attempt to help us sort of contextualize the happenings of today, some things that happened in the yesterdays of Afghanistan and some things that might happen there in the future. And we want to make sure that we are responsible and we have the right set of facts and information

as we talk about things that are happening in Afghanistan. Obviously, there was a huge attack today. That attack ended up taking the lives of, I think a dozen American servicemen and wounding around 15 others. And also there were Afghan citizens. They were also affected that attack. And a lot of people are asking a lot of questions about what specifically is going on in Afghanistan, how the Biden administration's decision to leave Afghanistan is potentially maybe destabilizing that country, that region.

and maybe who or what is the root cause of everything that is going on there. We can't speak to this with any sort of authority. So we brought somebody in who can have to bring in the big guns. And joining us today, we have Asmat Khan, who did I say that, did I say that right? You did, yeah, Asnot Khan. Asmat Khan, who has been reporting on this and is, well versed in some of the things that are going on over in the region. First of all, this was on short notice that you took this.

Thank you. So thank you very much. We wanted to make sure that we were speaking with some authority about some of the things that are happening. Now, a lot of Americans are asking questions right now about the manner in which we're getting out of Afghanistan, especially on the hills of the attack that we saw in Kabul today. what are the right questions to be asking of the Biden administration right now? And when you hear people from different areas of the political spectrum saying that our clumsy leaving of Afghanistan

opened us up to a terrorist attack of this sort, is that a correct assumption to make? I think there's not a lot of doubt that what we've seen today is in part linked to this very chaotic withdrawal. We know that undoubtedly the numbers of people that the United States has left behind to whom it's made promises is really shocking and it did not have to be that way. So we know that this withdrawal itself, the mechanics of it was bungled. But the question of whether or not it should have happened, you know, we can stop to look at what happened today, but I don't think that today's events should necessarily inform or be the basis for an entire decision about whether or not the withdrawal was important. And here's why I say that. The United States has been at war in Afghanistan for nearly 20 years. And for many years now, many U.S. officials, many Afghanistan watchers have known that the U.S. was losing that war.

But it was very difficult to accept that outcome. So if you look back even at the Afghanistan papers published in 2019 by the Washington Post based on so many interviews that were kept confidential with U.S. officials, you saw the veneer, you saw the unvarnished version of what American officials knew. They knew that this war was unwinnable, right? And these were interviews that had occurred. This was a several year-long battle to get those interviews. So they've known since at least, you know, between 2015, 2016, for quite a while now,

especially I think after the major withdrawal in 2014, that this war was not winnable. And in fact, just from my own reporting, looking at the kinds of problems that have existed in Afghanistan for so long, looking at the massive air support that the United States has provided the Afghan army, and knowing that that was the only reason that the Afghan government even held its tenuous hold on the country, you know, it's hard to do. deny that there was a way forward that would have allowed for some kind of real success in this war as the U.S. defined it. That really leads to so many people, and I'm speaking in my capacity as a reporter who's done a lot of ground reporting in the country, that seems pretty undeniable.

Now, if we stop to just look at what happened today, you know, we see that there were incredible security problems. You know, earlier today, there was even talk. the United States had told its citizens, please don't come near the airport. We have reports of a credible threat from ISIS-K-K-It's often called. It's an affiliate of ISIS, but a separate kind of group that exists in Afghanistan primarily in the east of the country in Nangarhar and Kunar provinces. And so the United States this morning was warning people, don't go near it. And not long after that there was this attack and many believe they are the ones who were responsible. And frankly, you know, there were, the Taliban have been fighting ISIS K for several years now. And many are

asking, well, if the United States had maybe negotiated this withdrawal earlier, or if the Afghan government had really seriously had talks with the Taliban, could they have partnered up to target ISIS K more effectively. You can see that they really exploited the chaos of this withdrawal that group. When Biden gave his initial speech after the news broke out that, you know, they were evacuating or removing their troops from Afghanistan, he talked about how we shouldn't have, after 2011, we shouldn't have been there. And I'm paraphrasing here, but he basically said we were there 10 years too long. And I think that left a lot of us wondering, then why were we there? What's been happening these last 10 years? And that's why it's interesting to hear you talk about

how we were losing the war. So if you can, I don't know if that's like too general level question, but what have we been doing these last 10 years? Why were we still there? That is such an excellent question. And I think it boils back to a post-9-11 approach to the United States in the rest of the world, which is one that was very counterterrorism-centric, which meant that it prioritized, you know, quote-unquote, taking the gloves off, going after al-Qaeda in every space, in every place. And what wound up happening is that a few years into the war in Afghanistan, frankly, a few months into the war in Afghanistan, the Taliban fell. And Taliban fighters offered themselves up. Many of them, they gave, you know, they requested amnesty. They were willing to,

you know, put down arms, this was happening constantly. And the Taliban fell pretty quickly. The U.S. had defeated the Taliban. And America stayed in the country. They decided that, okay, it's not enough to just topple this government. Let's build a new one. And let's not reintegrate members of these former groups of the Taliban who are now turning themselves in. Some of them, some of those who turned themselves in were sent to Guantanamo. And then in that absence, right, when Afghans know that the United States is so keen to capture and detain people who are part of, you know, whether they're part of Al Qaeda, whether they're part of the Taliban and are even willing to give financial rewards for doing so, imagine how many people informed on their rivals and said, hello, so-and-so is a member of the Taliban. Hello, so-and-so is a member of Al-Qaeda. Hello, so-and-so has been attacking your forces.

This happened repeatedly. My own reporting and the reporting of so many other investigative journalists has shown time and time again how the United States partnered with warlords and local strongmen when they went into this mass of reconstruction, these billions of dollars spent to build roads, clinics, schools. They partnered with these strong men. In many cases, these strong men would essentially, stage attacks on U.S. forces in order to get the contracts for security to protect also, you know, their own people who are building who already have the contract to build that road

or school or bridge or whatever it might be. So imagine, you know, what really happens in a lot of these communities that are now suffering, especially civilians, suffering the consequences of this in these rural areas. Who is there to fight or to put up some kind of resistance to this, you know, these kinds, you know, the apparatus of the new Afghan government. It makes sense that the Taliban came back from the dead as a result of a lot of this U.S. presence in Afghanistan. So I would say even before 2011, you know, you had seen the Taliban resurgence, especially by 2007. It was quite strong. 2008. It was only growing. And so when people say 2011, they might say 2011 because that was after America did its surge. You'll remember that the Americans had done a surge in Iraq, which they

deemed successful, and they were trying to replicate that in Afghanistan. And so that's where you saw things like the Battle for Marja in 2010, or some of these major efforts to take back particular provinces by massive amounts of U.S. troops. And it didn't work. And I think that was the last attempt to really try. And we began bringing troops home at the end of 2014, started a new kind of mission starting in 2015, where we really reduced the number of American troops on the ground in favor of providing massive aerial power to our Afghan partners. And so Afghan forces were the ones really suffering human losses on the fight against the Taliban. And, you know, so many people knew for so long that it may not have been winnable,

but many people thought, well, let's just keep the status quo where we keep the small number of troops, we keep these bases running. And the question of like, well, when do you stop that? What happens? Nobody really had an answer to that. You mentioned earlier that it might have been smarter to negotiate with the Taliban and maybe partner with them to fight ISIS K. in a way, isn't that politically a quagmire because of the Taliban's reputation, certain ways that we view them, obviously you say Taliban here in America, and you all, you think enemy, you think repressive regime as far as women are concerned. How does an administration navigate something like that if there's a bad or bad out there, perhaps then the Taliban, and that would be ISIS. who obviously, you know, executed a horrific attack today. One of the things that they lob at the Trump administration was that the Trump had,

Trump administration had invited the Taliban to Camp David, that he was talking to them. Are you saying that in that instance that the Trump administration was doing the right thing? So there's no doubt that the Taliban regime was incredibly repressive towards women. But there's also no doubt that the Saudi Arabian government, an American ally, is incredibly repressive to women, right? America does not actually make its foreign policy choices based on the rights of women. If they did, we would see a different relationship

with Saudi Arabia, right? I think that's maybe more used to build support for some of its choices and actions. It's why in the lead up to the war in Afghanistan, we saw so many people who were gunning for war really inflecting women's rights into their conversations, whether or not they meant them. So let's just put that

aside for one moment. I don't think that would actually stop the United States from partnering with someone. But I do want to just point out that the United States did in many ways help the Taliban fight ISIS-K. It's just less well-known. So when the Taliban was fighting ISIS-K, the United States would listen in on its communications. And there's incredible reporting documenting this by Wesley Morris and others. But they would listen in, figure out where the Taliban were fighting them, and carry out air strikes and bombings against ISIS-K in an effort to help that fight. This is well-documented. So they actually already were. And so when I had mentioned, you know, the arguments that some people are making about, you know, negotiations with the Taliban, yes, the United States was pursuing

those negotiations, but it would have been extremely helpful, many argue, if the Afghan government had entered into proper negotiations with the Taliban sooner, if they had constructed, at some kind of power sharing agreement, Kabul would not have fallen so quickly. There would have perhaps been the opportunity to tackle ISIS-K together between the Afghan government and the kind of coalition that they may have formed. Instead, the Taliban just marched right into Kabul, right? There was no negotiation. There are many people I know in Kabul who were extremely angry at President Khani for not pursuing those negotiations. They think Kabul could have been kept, had a power-sharing agreement been worked out earlier.

At this point, you know, as you saw between May and now, especially in August when you saw these provinces just fall to the Taliban, there was no leverage to negotiate with the Taliban anymore. There was no power-sharing agreement that you could have really constructed at this point when you saw such a deafening and quick Taliban assault and takeover. There was no leverage left. I want to go back to what you said in talking about. about the women because that's been in the news a lot. And we even saw someone, I think, I don't

want to say PR, but someone who was representative of the Taliban who was speaking to a female reporter and saying that they are trying to be a little bit more progressive than they have when it comes to women and their treatment of women. But then we're also hearing other stories that women are getting those rights that they once had taken away. They're not allowed to enter schools or certain jobs that they've had. And then we've had Angelina Jolie speak out and saying she's using her social media to be the voice of women. I don't know if it's just women, but to be the voice there because social media is being taken away. And so she's using her platform to speak on their behalf. What's true and what's not? Or maybe both are. Right. So the Balabon are making

these claims that they're going to protect the rights of women, that they'll be different from the last time. And I don't think they've ideologically changed that much. They hold some of the same ideals that they used to. The difference now is that they understand the political consequences of perhaps deviating from these kinds of norms. They now value international legitimacy in a way that they did not in the 90s. Like they could not have cared less back then about what the United States thought of them or what any foreign actors thought of them to the extent that they do now, right? Right now, remember, this government could essentially collapse. Their government could collapse because money has been frozen. They're actually points of leverage now. So I think the question

isn't so much, you know, ideologically have they changed so much as like, is there leverage to get them to do particular things? And I think that's where there has, there is some kind of change. At the same time, you know, we've seen them make a lot of assurances. And, you know, I'm speaking, to people in Kabul who seem like they have been, you know, relatively able to women and girls who have been able to get out and about. But we're also hearing reports of internet shutdowns, of mobile shutdowns and rural areas and provinces. And so I cannot, you know, I can't really tell you that there aren't incredible abuses happening to women and girls in rural areas. Additionally, you know, I can't tell you that the Taliban leadership has total control.

control over local leadership in some of the places where they're operating. So they might say do X, Y, Z, but I don't really know to what extent in some of these places local leadership will listen. So I think it's really something that remains to be seen, but people should be watching closely and trying to get as much information as possible. The Pentagon addressed the situation earlier today. General Kenneth McKinsey was talking. He was talking about both the ways in which the terrorist attack was carried out. They came into an entrance point and it was a suicide bombing. There's like just not very much you can do about it.

They didn't get onto the facility, but in order to secure the facility, there has to be some sort of Marine there that checks every single person that comes through. And they had done something like 104,000 clearances up to that point before this, before this bombing actually happened. The reason why I say that is because it, I point that out is because it seems to me that there was a determination behind this attack to destabilize everything.

And it makes me wonder what Afghanistan is going to look like after we're gone because he also said, look, August 31st, we're still on track to get out of the country. Like, we're going to be gone. Are we looking at an extended fight between ISIS K and the Taliban, where suicide bombings of this nature

plague and destroy the Afghan people and the Taliban for years and years to come. And ISIS, who we hadn't heard very much about, is there a, lately, is there a possibility of a major resurgence of them now that the United States is getting out of Afghanistan? So ISISK, always didn't have the same numbers as the Taliban. They primarily functioned in the east and

Kunara and Nangarha provinces. And a few years ago, you really saw the ramping up of that fight and many of them turning themselves in, joining the Taliban, really settling down. I think that this vacuum that exists right now allowed them to really try to set themselves back on the scene. and they're likely tactics based on, you know, what I know about their history and how they've operated are going to be guerrilla tactics like this. And they are going to be trying to create spectacles, right? Their numbers are not that large. The most that they can do in many of these places is to so fear and panic. I think they're going to attack whatever remnants there are.

For example, if there's still CIA operatives in Afghanistan, you know, they're, probably going to stage attacks against them. If there are, you know, civilians like we just saw, right, these really desperate people trying to get out of Afghanistan, these Afghan civilians who died in the dozens, right? We don't know the full exact number, but, you know, many times higher than other nationalities killed today, you know, this is something that they're going to seek out to do because they had been off the radar of so many because of their defeat there. ISIS in general, not just this affiliate, but ISIS in general. Very few people are paying attention to it.

It has largely been seen as defeated. And I think that many of them are going to think this is their moment. This is their chance to garner attention and have something as close to a comeback as they can. Van mentioned the date August 31st. We're seeing this date circulate a lot in the news. For our listeners, can you talk about what will happen on that date and what that means, I guess, for America? Right.

So America is supposed to be out of Afghanistan by that date. That was what was agreed upon. And there was a little bit of hesitancy about whether or not the Americans might extend that. But based on what we have been seeing at the airport, which is that a lot of, you know, some of the American security apparatus there is being wrapped up. You know, people I've been talking to have been leaving. It's been so much harder to get people into that airport for the last like three or four days now.

Many reporters and others that I know who are working to try to get people who worked with us out of the country, you know, we've organized convoys of people or, you know, put them in buses with their paperwork, gotten all the permissions, and then had them not get into the airport when flights were ready to take them. I know so many others who've, you know, done this. And so that tells you something about what kind of how much has already been wrapped up and who the priority is. The priority is not Afghan nationals. The priority is Americans and some of these foreigners in their eyes.

So I think by the 31st, you can expect, you know, I don't know how today will fully change what the U.S. does. I think that it's number one means of combat in recent years has been air support, which, by the way, have taken incredible civilian tolls in rural areas. These airstrikes have killed so many civilians. And the true number, which we don't know, because these rural areas are incredibly hard to access. But the time I've spent with people from them have, you know, have just told me some of the kinds of stories that I, you know, as somebody who spent a lot of time in Iraq and Syria investigating the air war against. ISIS. I was blown away by some of the tactics I was hearing about in Afghanistan and things that were happening to civilians, not just by Americans, but by Afghan forces, as well as the Taliban. And so, you know, you're going to see it's possible that the United States might try to do something to

retain that kind of air power. That means that they could maybe fly aircraft from Qatar, even if they're not flying aircraft from Afghanistan to bomb particular groups and places. But I think what's difficult now is that these groups have moved into Kabul. Like the fact that ISIS-Ks in Kabul is really frightening because for the longest time, they were primarily, they may have staged attacks here and there. But if they're moving into, you know, in rural areas, but if they're moving into Kabul and really operating from there, I don't know exactly. how air power might be a means, you know, in a densely urban neighborhood.

I don't think that you can expect to see air strikes. I do not think you would see air strikes in Kabul. So it's really, it's really, I can't tell you what's going to happen. I'm genuinely confused myself. Last question for me. Everything that we've discussed and everything we've talked about, there seems to be one concern that I have on my mind, which is the Afghan people themselves

and what their country, what their civilization, what their society is going to be like in the coming years. What do you think the legacy of American involvement or American, I guess the American war in Afghanistan

will be for the Afghan people moving forward? Like our presence there, what is that going to mean for them? Right. So there's so many different kinds of Afghan people, right? There are people in major urban centers who have seen the most progress as a result of the U.S. intervention in Afghanistan.

There are generations of women and girls in Kabul who have gotten jobs, careers, opportunities, things that their parents couldn't even dream of. There is that progress. And we're probably, we're hearing a lot about that on the news. We're seeing women and girls and youth in Kabul being interviewed. but whom we're not hearing from among the Afghan people are a lot of people in rural areas. So rural parts of the country make up nearly three quarters of the population. And I would say that the majority, almost all of the battle over the last 20 years has occurred

in about 30% of the country and 30% of these rural areas. That's where the fighting has been happening. Now, these people, their takeaways from this war are so different than some people in Kabul, right? they didn't see that incredible reconstruction or development. Instead, what they saw was incredibly intense battle. There are children who are in their teens who have never known a single day of peace. You know, they're used to not just airstrikes and Afghan force night raids and Taliban attacks and IEDs, but also kidnappings. the kinds of things that make daily life really difficult.

They've lost loved ones in rural areas, people over the last 20 years. It's not like they just lose, you know, 15 people one day overnight in an airstrike. It's been 20 years of losing people, family members. So imagine that kind of a grinding life. Their view or legacy of this war is going to be very different than somebody in couple, right? they're going to have a different perspective, one that makes them wonder, what was all this for? If it's the Taliban are now in power, that was the case beforehand. And we've lost so much. They're going to have a radically different view. And so I think that it depends on who you ask.

And it really depends on what their experience has been. Last question for me. I think a lot of us, Or maybe I'm just speaking for myself and people I've had conversations with, you're watching what's happening and you either feel like over the last 20 years, you either were uneducated and didn't understand what was going on or you thought you knew it to be one way and are slowly learning that it's a little bit different. How can we, as we're sitting back and we're watching what's happening, we're watching on the news, how can we be more informed other than following you, which I'd love for you

to give your information. How can we be more informed and how can we help from a distance? Right. So I would say that American attention of wars is usually driven by when American soldiers lose their lives, right? We saw the most coverage of the wars in Iraq

and Afghanistan when U.S. soldiers were dying in wars. And that's when media organizations cover it. That's when Congress starts to ask questions about what we're doing where and why, and has there been mission creep, and how are we doing XYZ in Africa? You know, these aren't questions that congressional representatives were really asking, you know, about Niger in the years before, you know, several soldiers died in that country in a raid, right? This is when we start to pay attention. And even now, like, I've been kind of struck by the media requests I'm getting, like, local news channels in New York want to cover Afghanistan. And you see that

happen when Americans die. So today we saw 12 U.S. soldiers die. And I know that this is going to, like I know Afghanistan is going to be in the news for a long time as a result of that. At the same time, if we rewind back to 2019, when I would argue that U.S. coverage and debate or conversation about the war was at its lowest, that was the year that the United States dropped more bombs in Afghanistan than any previous year of the war, 2019. The scale of bombing was unprecedented. I couldn't go to some of the areas I wanted to go to, not because I couldn't get Taliban permission.

It was because I was afraid of dying in an airstrike. I knew that the bombing was that intense and the intelligence that faulty, right? So while that was happening, the American public was the least aware of it as it had probably ever been. So I think I would encourage people to know that the way that America is primarily fighting its wars today is via air power, airstrikes, which means that very, you know, much lower numbers of U.S. soldiers are dying, which is a wonderful thing. But it also means that you're not going to see things on the news. You're not going to hear people talk about it or look into it. So you kind of have to take your own initiative as a listener and a reader because that stuff exists.

They're journalists still doing this work. There are incredible bureaus that have been putting out news and tracking casualties. It just may not be on cable news or, you know, where you're probably getting your information. You're just going to have to go look for it. So know that American wars continue around the world at record pace even, whether or not your mainstream TV news is covering it. Award winning investigative journalists, New York Times Magazine contributing writer

Carnegie fellow you got so many accolades here we could spend a whole podcast just going down your accolades right here it's amazing we really appreciate you making us a little bit smarter and a little bit more engaged on this we'll see what happens

over the next couple of days there seems to be no end to what it is that we're seeing it seems like the Pentagon and American forces are going to be on higher alert. And even after that, you know, as far as the, how the Afghan people are able to live, hopefully we'll take an interest in it,

being that we had so much involvement there over the last 20 years. So thank you for joining us today on higher learning. I really appreciate it. I really appreciate it. Thank you for what you do. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

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limited edition perfume mist collection only at Sephora. Um, okay. Oh, Rachel. Rachel. All right, look. Shakari Richardson. Let me tell you something. Nobody is blowing a 3-1 lead right now like Shakari Richardson is.

I got to be honest with you. Chikari Richardson was way up. All right. We all know that Chikari Richardson lost the Prefontein Classic. She came in last. Congratulations to the Jamaican women. They won. They always win.

They are the best. But Shikari has come under a little fire because of something that she posted on her Instagram. Allison Felix was on Jimmy Kimmel Live hosted by Stephen A. Smith. Did you watch? He did a good job. Did he? Good for him. Good for Stephen A. Smith. She was on Jimmy Kimo Live on August 24th. Allison Felix, Allison Felix said this about Shikari Richardson. This is what she said. Actually, you know what? Run the sound. Play the clip. Play the like, play the sound. In light of all that's been transpiring, all that she has gone through.

Yeah. What message would you like to say about her personally and about what she endured being an Olympian. Yeah, I know that. It's supposed to be an Olympian. Yeah, I know that she's obviously been through so much. And so I hope that she just supported, you know, I hope people rally around her. Obviously, she has a great personality and she's brought in a lot of attention to the sport. And I think she'll be in the sport for a very long time.

And so I think just more than anything, you know, for all athletes, there's so much that goes into it. We just, you know, give her the support that she needs. I got you. Okay. After that, Shakari Richardson took to her Instagram and posted a video. video where she was in her car and it was on her stories and a message said this. Encouraging words on TV shows are just as real as well, nothing at all, she wrote. This also comes with the revelation that Shakari Richardson liked a derogatory tweet

about Jamaicans. There was some tweet where somebody was saying, even though the Jamaicans one, they got to go back to a coconut hut or some crazy shit like that, some really weird shit. And the tweet was liked by Shakari Richardson. She shaded Allison Felix, who is the 24-carat gold-plated lady of track and field. American grace and excellence personified. And she got at her for trying to come. comfort her.

Rach, what are your thoughts? I don't know. Like, this is tough for me. I love Shikari, okay? And you're right.

She's up there. Everybody was supporting her. Everybody had her back. Everybody was trying to uplift her for what she's gone through. But it's, is this a cry for help? I don't, I don't know.

I don't know why you would be so disrespectful to Alison Felix. I don't know if you like the attention that you're getting by being so polarizing, like you against the world. I don't know. I don't understand. I can't say there's some people who are like, oh, she's just young. No, she's 21, I believe she's 21. She's old enough.

I don't understand what she's doing. I don't know, Van. I don't know. I don't like it. Can I tell you that? Whatever she's doing, I don't like it. I don't think that this is a good look for her. Forget playing into, you know, the criticism that she's getting from people and people are like,

oh, I always knew it. This is her. No, I just don't like the way the road that she's going down. She's really shutting herself off from so many different people. There's a lack of respect there. And I'm not sure what her in game is and all of this. I don't know if this is like I said, if it's a cry for help if she's deflecting because she is embarrassed

and what happened at the pre-fontaine. I'm not quite sure, but whatever it is, it's the wrong look for her. And I'm not sure who's mentoring her, who has her ear, but they really need to like get reach out to her because this isn't, this isn't going to cut it.

So Chikarra Richardson is black American, right? We're black Americans. She's a black American. That's correct. She is. So a lot of times in that, that phrase, black American, we concentrate on one part of it, the black part. Right.

She's black. She's black. So we identify with her. We root for her. We stick up for her. But there's the second part to that. And that part is American. And let me tell you what Americans are, what Americans can be.

Americans can be arrogant, spoiled. They take things for granted. They can be loud. They can be boisterous. They can be in your face. You know. And as compared to some of the athletes that you saw,

they smoked Shakara. They didn't say anything about her. They're running. Their thing is running, right? America has become, to a degree, a celebrity obsessed culture. So as soon as we see a brand new celebrity, as soon as we see a brand new celebrity,

we stampede onto them and then eventually stampede over them, which is the way the culture goes, depending on how long they give us, or we give them. And I think it's important to know that when you talk about these things, arrogant, boisterous,

rude, that Shikari Richardson is demonstrating all of these things. Right? And that's the American part of what's going on with her. We have a specific thing that we're doing here. What we should have done for that girl is this. I apologize to her. The minute that that girl smoked weed in competition and disqualified herself

from the Olympic Games, we should have been on her head. It's not what we did, though. And this is my fault as well. We coddled her because what we do is we want people to, we want to give people space to feel things and we have to give people space to feel things and we have to give people space to go through things and not have it be

the worst moment of your life then scars you for however long. We have to do that. As a society, as specifically a black community because the American community will never do this. We have to give people soft beds to land on when they fall. We do. We do. But

people are going to react to that. that in different ways. There are going to be some people that when we give them soft beds to land on, they're going to lay in the bed, they're going to roll themselves up in the covers, they're going to recuperate, and then they're going to get up stronger. Some people giving them a soft bed to land on makes them harder, turns them into a monster. some people actually need to be told you're fucking up. Now, I don't know Shakira Richardson personally,

but it seems obvious right now that she doesn't need anybody to treat her gently. She needs people to be like, yo, you're fucking up. Forget about anything that happened on the track. There's no shame in coming in last with all of those fast women on the track. But what she did to Alison Felix,

is unacceptable. The reality is that's a black woman. Look, when we talk about this, let's make sure we're talking about the same thing, right? A black woman offers you her hand. A black woman says, hey, support her. Like, offers you encouragement. And you spit in a fucking face.

As a community, anybody that's like looking at that and tolerating that, you're not doing Shakari Richardson any favors. And the reality is, it's nothing to think about. It's wrong. And by the way, not only is that wrong, but liking a tweet about Jamaicans and how they live and are they going back to huts and coconuts and all of that,

that's not just wrong. That's white supremacy. That's not just wrong. like you need to be called out in front of the congregation for your own good you know how i am i like i give a youth pass hey you did stuff when you were young if you atone for it you're a different person you're a different person now i'm good with it i'm good with you know i give a youth pass but i'm looking at it right now and i don't see how it's impossible for anyone to look at some of the things and just ask at least ask the question,

is Shikari Richardson like a bad person? Is she like a fuck up? Because I get it. Like I just lost my dad and I was inconsolable. So, smoking some weed, missing the deal, cool.

One thing. Talking your shit, popping your shit, cool. One thing. You get a chance to do it. But there's a human part of her. She keeps saying, human, I'm human. We're not seeing human from her. We're not seeing the part of her.

She's saying human, I'm human, I make mistakes. We're not seeing, she didn't treat Allison Feet looks like she was human. She didn't treat the Jamaicans that she's talking about walking back on Hudson stuff like that. She's not treating them like they're human. I'm not seeing a lot of humanity

from Chikari Richardson right now. So, so what I'm asking myself is, yo it's all good sister it's straight we love you but on the real tighten the fuck up

on the real like we love you we love you we down it's cool it's gravy man stop the bullshit tighten the fuck up tighten up I feel like when you're

when you talk about the humanity she's definitely showing the human side it's just the other side of it. When you described what it is to be American, that's the human side of her that she's definitely showing. I mean, I want to go back to something you said about coddling her. See, I don't think it was coddling her to say that USATF or whatever it's called should change their rules. Usada. Thank you. USA Track and Phil. Okay. Yeah, Usada should change their rules.

I don't think that that's coddling her saying that their rules are antiquated and they need to step in. It was coddling her though. But no, I don't think that was the coddling part. I don't think us saying they need to change her rules and she should be able to run or at least have been able to run the four by one. I don't think that was the coddling. And even if you can say us saying those rules should be changed was coddling,

Usada chose not to coddle her by saying you can't do it. The coddling came from her increase in followers. People saying, you know, like celebrities supporting her. The commercials. The Kanye collaboration. Even the commercials she had with Young, Gifted and Black Song playing with her tap and her nails talking about she's ready. That's the coddling.

She became a superstar even more. So we were, she was already, you know, like it was highly anticipated to watch her run the race. and we were excited to see what she was going to do and represent the country, but the superstardom came after that in the way people handle her. And that's what I think was the coddling of her.

And so I think as a result of that, you set up something about her being bad or she's just a fuck-up. I think there's a difference. I think you can be bad or be a fuck-up. She's a fuck-up. Like I definitely think that because there's a sense of entitlement

that has developed from the coddling because she so much has been handed to her. She has gotten even more oppressed. She insulted people because they were poor. No, no, no, no. I'm not talking about that. I'm just talking about the coddling part. There's a sense of entitlement that has come with her

because of all the things that have been handed to her for something that, in essence, she broke the rules and she did wrong. And now she's filling herself so much. She's acting like she's above it all. She doesn't even need an Alison Felix. She's above that. She doesn't need to respect other black women. women from a different country or Jamaicans in general or just the country of Jamaica.

She's above all of that. She needs to be knocked down at this point, which is why I'm not saying when I go back to what I was saying, I don't like any of it. I don't like any of it. And I don't know who can reach her because she seems to be untouchable at the moment. Like she don't want to hear from anybody because she seems to act like she's above it all. Yeah. Look, she needs to be woken up because the reality is that like do your thing, talk your

shit, be who you are, right? It's plenty of, it's plenty of, and let's make sure that we keep it gangster. There's plenty of male athletes that go out there and are disrespectful and all of that. We get it. But if you're going to be all of that, if it's like, forget about Allison Felix, encouraging her, if it's going to be all of this, you at least got to go win races. So you're like, like, you at least got to go win races, right? And the reality is she got fucking smoked by a bunch of girls that didn't say nothing.

They just ran women, excuse me, about a bunch of women who didn't say nothing. They just ran. Ran her out and she's making herself into a laughing stock. Now, if she needs this to come back and go harder, I'm with it. I'm with, Shakari, I'm with her. I'm with her. But what I'm telling you right now is like we need to make sure. that we don't get wrapped up in this vortex of it's all right,

everything that people do, especially when you see a pattern of them being disrespectful and whack. Do you think that people are still on that train? Because I think with this, with with this, the story that she put out on Instagram, I think people are like, all right, enough. I have not seen the support and coddle since she did it.

I mean, it still is, is, it's changing. But at the same time, I would also like her to address this and tell me, look, if you're going to say, look, at least say why. If you're going to say that you didn't appreciate that apology or whatever, at least tell us why. At least say, hey, she didn't reach out to me personally. And maybe that's what she's saying. At least say why. But throwing shade on Alice and Felix and doing this stuff, man, I'm not, I'm not off her because I was never really on her. Like, because I like the people that go and they win the shit.

but like, I'm not off her, but I'm saying like, come on, man. Like, come on. Tighten the fuck up, Shakar. Yeah. Tighten the fuck up. Yeah. Tighten up. Yeah.

Tighten up, man. We'll see. We'll see. All right. Rachel Nichols is gone from ESPN. Let's keep it sports. You guys. ESPN.

Wow. We've covered this story since its inception. Rachel Nichols was the host of the jump. She was going to do sideline reporting during the NBA finals. The NBA, excuse me, the ESPN went, hey, we want Maria Taylor to do it. Rachel Nichols did not take too kindly to that. She accused ESPN on a hot video, hot microphone, of promoting Maria Taylor because of diversity. a lot of diversity.

There is no city like diversity. Rachel, what's your favorite city? What's your favorite city? My favorite city is a diversity. They have nice hotels. Keep going. So what is wrong with you? The best city is diversity.

They have the nicest five-star. hotel is diversity. And so fucking Maria Taylor left. She did the NBA. And then Maria Taylor bowed, she did the Olympics for NBC. I watched very little of the Olympics, people say she did a great job.

Now, they got rid of Rachel Nichols. Rachel Nichols was the host of the jump. And per the sports business journal, the old SBJ, I love it. The jump is getting camera. and Rachel Nichols will not be on the air for ESPN for the next year. Her contract has one more year on it, but she won't be on the air. It's over for our Nikki.

This is one of the worst fucking situations I can remember. Everybody called one. I have no idea why there even, people have forgotten about it if you asked me. I was watching the jump a couple of times and not even thinking about it. The jump is going to have guest hosts until the show is over. they're going to bring out a new NBA show. But now Rachel Nichols is gone. I'm wondering like, what the hell?

How did ESPN bungle this to such a degree? It's so bad. And we talked about this before, but it, this is a playbook on how not to handle a situation, um, between two of your best female presence on, um, on,

on your, on your, on your, on your, on your, work. I mean, Maria Taylor and Rachel Nichols, and I can't remember if I said this when we were talking about the first time, but this should not have gone this far. Honestly, this happened over a year ago. They never addressed it when it happened. So of course Maria Taylor does not feel valued.

Of course she left ESPN. And then they, after the fact, try to punish Rachel for something that happened over a year ago that they never handled in the first place. They should have set these two women down and they should have figured it out. Maria, you know, I mean, she's great. She's going to land on her feet and do fantastic wherever she is. But ESPN should have done everything they could to retain her. They should have made her feel like she was valued at their company. And Rachel Nichols, in my opinion, should still be there as well.

Like, honestly, that's what I feel. They should have figured this out a year ago. And instead, they let it fester. They tried to cover it up. They didn't, like Maria felt one way. Rachel was moving along thinking everything was fine and then all this came to light with the New York Times article and now they're both gone.

I just, if I was working at ESPN, like, I don't know how I would feel. I mean, I just, the way that they're running the situation, the way that they handled it, it's so, so bad. And I just, and now everybody's paying attention to ESPN. Yeah. And how they handle these situations. Like, that's who I'm looking at. I'm not looking at Rachel.

I'm not looking at Maria. I'm looking at ESPN. ESPN. I'm trying to figure out why they have issues when it comes to the way that they handle certain things. And I have friends over there and I'm still in touch with people and I just don't understand how you could mess this up that badly. Is it because you don't have black people in it in the, you know, as decision makers? I don't know. I just don't understand how this situation could be botched this badly.

So I think I have an answer about what needs to happen over at ESPN. What? Is this a real thing? I'm totally serious about this. Okay. Like, I'm totally serious about this. Oh, no. All right.

I thought about, I was thinking about it. Who could we put in charge of ESPN that could create a fun environment at ESPN, an inclusive environment at ESPN, somebody that's really well liked, somebody that, somebody that we know a lot about to change up the culture at ESPN,

somebody that we know a lot about, somebody that's really well liked, somebody that when they walk into a room, people go, hey, happy to see you, but also knows sports and knows and knows pop culture and knows how to deal with differing personalities. Okay, who do you think, Who do you think I'm going to say?

Barack Obama. No. Hell no. No. No. Hell no. Hell no. I'm sorry, but he did fit a lot of the things that you just named.

Do you want another guess? Do you want another guess? Is it a man or a woman? It's a man. A woman could do the job fantastically. I know. It's a man. And they're black?

They're black. Around 40 years old. you better not be naming yourself. No. Okay. Around 40 years old. I don't know. Okay.

Are you ready for this? Yes. Ray J. So. And I don't want to do the podcast. This is absolutely ridiculous. But listen to me. Did I hear you correctly?

Ray J. Listen to me about why Ray J should be in charge of ESPN now. Okay. First of all, listen to me about why Ray J should be in charge of ESPN. ESPN has a cultural problem. Ray J, shout out to Vince Staples for pointing this out. Ray J is a cultural icon.

Tell me something right now. Tell me something right now. Have you ever heard anybody say, I don't like Ray J? Does Kim Kardashian like him? Have you ever heard her say she doesn't like him? Okay. So let me tell you something about Ray.

I'm serious. I thought about this. I was around Ray J. time and Ray J was smoking a cigarette. And I thought, damn, I wanted a cigarette. I've never wanted a cigarette in my life. But here it is, it's Ray J. You're really giving him a lot of problems.

So let me tell you, let me tell you why Ray J works. Ray J is a business owner. Did you know this? He has got the scooty bikes. He's always giving everybody his earbuds and stuff. Scootie bikes, earbuds. He's an entrepreneur. All right.

He's great at a party. Most of America is way more familiar with Ray J. then we actually should be because most of America. A lot of people saw that. And to be real with you, a lot of people saw that. And what did Ray J's career do after that? He just continued to blow up.

He's a good guy. I'm serious. I'm serious. Ray J. I'm not down that he's not a good guy. He's become a corporate magnet. He's become a titan of industry. he's become somebody that everybody knows him.

Everybody does not know him. And if people do know him. Everybody knows Ray Jack. And if they do know him, most people know him for the wrong reasons, right? Like they know him because he has a sex tape or they know him as Brandy's younger brother. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. That's changed. I think you're, you have a, hold on, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

You're narrow-minded and like you're giving him way too much credit. Okay, that is what, 100. 100% changed. What if you ask people to name three things about Ray J? No, wait. They would say love and hip hop. They would say Brandy's brother. You guys, you guys.

And they would say sex tape. I'll tell you, right now. Brandy is now, I love Brandy. I think Brandy has the most angelic, beautiful voice in the world. Brandy is known as Ray J's sister. Get out of here. Get out of here. I swear to God, that's true.

Put some respect. on Brandy's name. I respect Brandy. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, I respect Brandy. That's changed. Brandy, first of all, let me make sure, let me get Brandy her flowers for time.

Brandy, to me, I don't want to them wrong, I'll end up there. Has Ray J had a versus? Has Ray J had what? That's Ray J has to, no, Ray J hasn't had a versus yet. No, he hasn't been on versus yet.

So what? So what? Brandy did. Brandy did a version. And it was iconic. It was iconic. That's my point. You know what else was iconic?

Sexy can I? That was iconic. Okay. Oh, so you just go make him a one hit wonder? No, he's not a one hit wonder. He's not a one hit wonder. But he's not one hit to wonder at all. You know that song?

That once that song he had, wait a minute. Yeah. On the Houston radio, they used to be like, they used to be like, Coatel rider. That's disgusting. Coal. Yo, I'm telling you right now, first of all, I'm not trying to take anything away from Brandy

I love Brandy I love I love you guys don't even know Ray J's sister bro I used to ride around listening to full moon I like I love Brandy's songs that you don't even know everything you're saying is past chance

If I can love you And it's your mother I love you more than I can love myself I can't believe that you I can't believe you disrespect Seriously seriously Seriously right now right now now, right now. Brandy, Ray J. sister, man, that changed. That changed. Brandy, Ray J.

sister, man. Right now. What changed it? What changed it? What changed it? Man, Ray J. got too much fucking going on in these fucking streets, man. Ray J. got scooty bikes. Ray J. got glasses. Ray J. got a career of music. Ray J. Be honest with you. Like I said, Ben Stables talked about this. Ray J put on the hood. He good in the streets. Okay. The legend of Ray J has only grown to the point to where I'm being for real though. What did Vince Staples say? Vince said something a long time ago and it was very true. But what I'm telling you right now is when you look at what has happened, Ray J has had one of the best careers from 30 to 40 of anybody in the world.

right and I'm gonna be real with you if you think of it now you gotta be real if you think about it now Brandy is Ray J's sister he caught her that happens that happens man

and he should be in charge of ESPN you put Ray J in charge of ESPN right now you don't want to put Obama man we we sick of people forcing Obama down our throes I was just saying based off the things that you that you named. I'm like, oh, okay.

I'm going to be real with you. Plus the Obama thing, like Obama, the party disqualified him. Like, he can't, he showed irresponsibility. Bozeman? Are you okay? Okay. Let's take a break. The playoffs are here.

And you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Bandul predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, and misses. predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. This podcast is brought to you by Carvana.

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Schedule pickup. And we'll come to you with a check in hand. Your car, your timeline, your terms. Visit Carvana.com to sell your car today. Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. All right, Lil Nas X is pissed off at everyone. Lil Nas X reunited the Satan's shoe debate.

Tony Hawk is a skater. Tony Hawk, pro skater, I love the game. Tony Hawk has been skating for a long time. Tony Hawk has been skating for as long as I've been watching TV and stuff. There was this movie back in the day called Gleaming the Cube. Everybody go watch Gleaming the Cube. It's with Christian Slater and they're gleaming it. And it's like a murder.

It's a murder mystery that takes place out in Anaheim. What? But they're like pro skates. Like he's a skater. Y'all never saw gleaming the cube, man. Fuck y'all. But so Tony, Tony Hawk was actually in Gleaming the Cube. This is way back in like the late 80s.

He's been skating for a long time. And he is a skating legend. And he decided he was going to release a limited edition skateboard, 100 skateboards, with his blood in the skateboard, in the paint on a skateboard. It's called the Liquid Death Mountain Water, limited collection of 100 skateboards printed with the athletes real blood. They got the real blood in the print. Okay, nobody cared when he said that.

Hey, he says, I'm a kiss fan, kiss this. this with a comic book back in the 70s. Nobody made a big deal. Little Naz-X went, when I released something with blood in the shoe, remember the Lil Naz X, 666, 6th shoe, the Air Force One, limited edition that came out right after the Montero video dropped. Some time ago, people were like demonic, satanic, blah, blah, blah. He said, and I quote,

now that Tony Hawk has released skateboards with his blood painted on them, and there was no public outrage, are y'all ready to admit that you were never actually upset over the blood in the shoes? And maybe you were mad for some other reason he's seeming to heavily insinuate that we're, that people were upset because Lil Nas X was making a statement. A little Nizx strongly insinuating that homophobia was at the root of people actually being mad about the shoe. And not the blood itself. He's, I mean, I don't doubt that that that's the case. but I think it's really about this.

I could care less what Tony Hawk is doing. Oh, what Tony Hawk is doing. Like, if Tony Hawk, if Naz-X had not come out with the blood first, I wouldn't even know that this was a story with Tony Hawk. And I think that's most people. We are not aware of what he's doing,

what he's coming out with. He's not really on our radar. So him with the blood, I would never even know this story existed if it wasn't for Lil Nasex. I think Lil Nasx is 100% right. He's absolutely bothers me. I do. I think he bothers people.

People are bothered by him. They're uncomfortable by him. And he's on people's radar. And anything he does, it like garners all this attention. Nobody really cares what Tony Hawk is doing. I don't. Go ahead. So the Tony Hawk thing is weird with the blood.

That is weird. But yeah, it's weird. But also, so look, I understand what Lil Nasda's was doing with and the rebellion that he was, uh, that he was basically talking about with Montero the video and the shoe, um, coming at the church for its treatment of the LGBT community. The thing that bothered me about it is I'm an old country nigger who's, who, who has a fear of the devil. And the Tony Hawk skater shoe, the Tony Hawk skateboard,

isn't a devil skateboard 666 pinagrams all over the board. It's something. Death. Yeah. So look, I get it. I mean, it's not like I don't have a problem with the,

well, the company is called Liquid Death Mountain Water. That's the name of the company. So the skateboard is like just because Liquid Death Mountain Water. Liquid Death is a company. My thing is, it was only the imagery, the satanic imagery that was bothering me about the shoe.

The blood was just a part of, the fact that it was 666 Pentegram. I'm not wearing anything with a 666 on it. I'm not wearing anything with a pentagram on it. I don't care if people do. But it has, it really had nothing to do with that. Like for me personally,

I'm sure there were scores of people that cared about it because Lil Nas X was gay. Sure. He's right about that. Yeah, he's definitely right about that. But for me, the devil stuff is like, I'm scared of the devil.

I'm sorry, guys. I'm like, I'm scared of the devil. I'm scared of the devil, man. But I also just think it wasn't this big thing in the media because nobody's checking for Tony Hawk like that these days either. Yeah, well, I'll tell you what, Lil Nas X is doing the good, he's fighting a good fight. He has had, he is out there pushing people to the limit.

And I love it. I love everything about the kid. Every single thing about it. And the music is going hard. That industry baby joint is ridiculous. That's a hard song. I love that joint. All right.

Kanye West petitions to change his name Legally the Yeh? No, not doing it. Martin Luther King Jr. is coming to Fortnite. I don't know anything about this. So, so Fortnite is going to allow kids to go to the March on Washington

in the game. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, teleports players to DC 63 or reimagined Martin Luther, D.C. in 63 where they will be able to visit the Lincoln Memorial in the National Mall to hear King deliver his famous 17-minute speech calling for civil rights.

The experience extends the museum-inspired points of interest and collaborative mini-game quests you compete with others. These activities, progress players, through the experience and bring to life important things with Dr. King's speech. We move for it when we work together. All right, so this is my only problem with this. I have one problem with it.

Of course you do. Fortnite is a shooting game. Oh, is it? I thought it was a dancing game. No, Fortnite is like a shooting game. shooting a shooting game like a fortnight battle royals. But don't they have like the fortnight dances everyone talks about? Where do those coming in life?

Your characters can do little dances if you buy the dances. Gotcha. I'm worried that they have to, there's going to be people out there that's going to be going to the mall just so they could try to take a shot at Dr. King. Okay, okay. I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I think they, able to do that?

There's got to be a way that they've taken it out. Because that's the first thing I thought, when I saw, when I, when I thought to myself they put in Dr. King in Fortnite, I thought, bad idea. Like, you know what I mean? When I saw that, like they put in Dr. King and Fortnite, no, no, bad idea. Don't put Dr. King in Fortnite. We don't want to see him in Fortnite. You know, like, that's the last place we want to see our beloved Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. I was thinking to myself, are they people going be trying to be trying to play like a, are they going to try to put it in the battle battle royal with Dr. King? It's like, that's not.

Yeah, Fortnite is just a shooting game. I think it's a really, okay, first of all, I really hope that there's a way that that's not a part of whatever this experience that it is. But I think that's really cool and innovative that they're allowing that to happen. I originally thought you were saying that they were allowing you to participate in the march that's happening this weekend through Fortnite. So I thought you could like attend.

I thought you could attend virtually the March. And I was like, oh, does that count towards the numbers of people attending? Like, you could virtually be a part of the protest. That's what I thought you were saying to at first. Okay. Well, it's 1963. So like, do you have Fortnite? So you'd be able to do this?

Oh. No, I don't have it. I don't want to look, man. Some stuff isn't for video games, man. But they have to, they have to have done something to the game to where you came. It's a huge disaster. Do you know how many videos will be on there if that's, if that's, of people popping off just for fun.

Like, not just white, I'm not talking about the white supremacist's kids either. I'm talking about these sick video game kids that just want to go on a video game and thrash everything up. Trash. Did you ever see that clip of Anthony Davis playing Grand Theft Auto

where they brought like a guy that was Steph Curry in front of him and he shot him and threw him off of a cliff? You never saw that clip? That is so inappropriate. Anthony Davis is playing fucking Grand Theft Auto and it's a dude in this Steph Curry jersey and like

a light skin guy, look like he's Steph Curry and his crew asked him like, yo, do you want to kill him? He's like, hell yeah. And then he shoots the guy and that they either toss him in the trunk or throw him off a cliff and Anthony Davis goes, yeah, we out. These games are crazy, man. They're crazy. All right. Well, I'll tell you what's not crazy though. A mailbag! Donnie, let's go.

Donnie, please. Please, bro. Be nice, remember. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Donnie. Could you please give us a mailback? Mailback time. Time to read your letters and then we'll reply to them. Oh, it's mailback time. Write us with your queries and we'll chime in. From Show Me the Shake, what is a song you hear that always reminds you of a happy memory? Hi, boys, we on fire. I don't know where I was when, but that does. That's just, you just, I got in my car.

Hi, boys. Hi, boys. Who, but who were you? Did you feel like, like, I would always take on Wayne or young turt? I would take Wayne. I would take Wayne. I would take Wayne on the song. Right.

Right in the night. He's like a little bit sucking on the Bible. What kind of boy you know? It's hot. But Juvie was the bill. What kind of niggas is a hard and serve time? What kind of a nigga drop? She's a served arms.

What kind of a nigga? I look at that whole album. Too hot. Yep. Hi, boys. A couple of them. Like, hey, Ma. What kind of a,

give a fuck who you is. Disrespect to his mind. You jeopardize of your kids. Whoa, whoa. You know, I'm going to go listen to that. When this is over. Hey, Ma, reminds me of, like, high school. Oh, wow, that's a great one.

The whole blueprint album just reminds me, just takes me back. I'm trying to think college. Man, I get money. Reminds me of the summer of living in New York. just a wild summer of being in New York. Yeah, they're a bunch. They're a bunch.

Yeah. That's a good question. Next one. That's a good question. Come on. From Regina Teresa. Career advice. Best way to move up in a career in media.

Question mark. Go on the Bachelor. Work, do a TMZ tour. I can't really give you now. It was so, like, I can't, like, I can't. I feel like, like, it's like, it was so, it was so unconventional the way that I did. thing. No, I can't tell you. This is why I can't tell you. I just what I'll tell Regina Teresa. Number one, I tell her you got two first names. So that's a thing. All right,

but this is what I would tell Regina Teresa. Get your reps. Whatever, the most important thing in building your career are reps. Reps, reps, reps, reps, reps. I say this all the time. It's very true. If Kanye West walks into the office, it says what he says, the first year I work, at TMZ, it doesn't happen. The reason why that moment happened was because I had been there for so long. I knew who I was. I was confident in my job. I was confident on screen and I was I was used to go into battle on TV.

I was battle tested. So I could meet the moment. And that only comes from doing it day in, day out, day in, day out. So whatever you're doing, try to go do it. If you get an internship, will I let you do something? if you're doing it on YouTube or whatever, because be ready for the moment. The moment is going to come.

But the question is, will you be ready for it? That's what I would say. And I would say, like we joke TMZ and The Bachelor, but I think a lot of times, and maybe specifically it's with the younger generation, is that you see somebody

and you think things just happen for them, right? Like these opportunities didn't happen just because I was on The Bachelor or just because Van worked at TMZ. It's a little bit, a lot of hard. hard work and a little bit of luck, like being in the right timing is everything to, being in the right place at the right time. So I would say you definitely have to pay your dues

and put in hard work. And then that's just adding to what's fans saying about and then be ready when the moment, when the luck comes, when the moment's there, be ready for it to take advantage of that opportunity. Also, networking. Let me just say, people underestimate networking because you can have all the credentials. You can have everything on your resume. You can have all the experiences. But if you're not establishing those relationships and connecting with people, that will take you to another level as well. And I don't feel like you should do that enough anymore. So definitely make sure you're networking and establishing relationships. Absolutely. Absolutely. This is from J-O-N, John. What are your comfort shows? Something you turn on to relax and not think.

The Sopranos. I watch it all day, every day. That's so weird to me. Housewives, anything on Bravo, pretty much. I'm unwinding all things Bravo. Love it. Last question, Donnie. One last question.

Let's go. Last question. All right. This is from Going Off Topic podcast. What is your most prized possession? I don't have one. I'm thrown off with the word possession, right? Because my immediate thought is,

It's copper, but I don't want to say that I like possess him, but like I just love my, my dog so much. There's, uh, there's, it's such, it's such an unconditional love. So copper, I guess, but. Yeah, I mean, it would be like a thing. If we look there like that like that, but I don't really get attached. There's stuff that I keep around, but I don't really get attached to shit like that. You know, right then night. He's like a Louisville sluggled daddy.

That's enough. It's over. Do you have, thank you, uh, Donnie. You did a fucking. terrible job at Milbaat today. I mean, even I got in on this one. Yeah, it's like, it's not let it happen again.

Jesus, Godin. Jesus, man. All right, do you have an unexpected ally of the week? Oh, no. No, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Thought Warriors. We've really been slipping on unexpected, especially me. Unexpected ally of the week. We'll bounce back.

No, we'll bounce back. All right, you guys, thought warriors, have a great weekend. And we are done. Take your thing caps off, but do not stop learning. I am Van Lathen, Jr. And I'm Rachel and Lindsay.

Bye guys.