Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Bad Bunny’s Halftime, Trump’s Racist Post, and Activism in Sports With Jemele Hill

Episode Date: February 10, 2026

Van and Rachel talk about Bad Bunny’s halftime performance and the TPUSA “patriotic” alternative, before reacting to Donald Trump’s racist post of the Obamas and an odd detail in the Epstein files. Then, journalist and podcaster Jemele Hill joins to talk activism and gambling in sports. (0:00) Intro (5:24) Bad Bunny’s halftime show (19:09) Jake Paul and Puerto Rico (26:39) TPUSA’s halftime show (33:30) Trump’s racist post (49:26) Epstein typo or clue? (59:49) Jemele Hill joins the show Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Jemele Hill Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Jade Whaley Social Producer: Bernard Moore Vote here for the NAACP Image Awards: vote.naacpimageawards.net Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Hard learning is on. Is Ivan Laketon Jr.? And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. You have fun at the Super Bowl. I had a good time. You could tell for my voice.

My spies were out. But you always say this. You get a lot. You always say this. Let me say that I love going out because I always get to be so many thought warriors. The amount of people that come up, thank you, you guys.

Tell us they listen to the podcast. Support it. Love what we do. Support us by voting in AA-CP. awards. If you haven't voted already, vote. And if you have voted, send it to somebody else so they can vote because you only vote once. Also, I wanted you guys to do something for us here. I want to do an experiment right now. I want you guys, in this particular episode of higher learning, we have Jamel Hill on the podcast today. Fantastic interview with Jamel. We talk about all kinds of

things. Dionne Sanders, Colin Kaepernick, NBA, NFL, betting, all of that stuff. She's got a new podcast out with the incomparable carry champions called Flagrin. Funny she's also doing as a part of a Vice series. Yeah, out of bounds, all about sports betting. So listen, this entire deal. For this episode, even if you're listening to us on audio, go to YouTube and play this episode. Even if you only don't watch this, you don't listen to us,

just go to YouTube and play this episode. We're trying to see something. go to YouTube and this particular episode tomorrow. If you can, higher learning, the YouTube channel, go to YouTube, play this episode on YouTube.

Every single person, you're listening to it on audio, cool. Just click over to YouTube and play this episode if you don't mind. And if you can, share it with somebody else. It helps to spread the podcast if you can.

All right. I am right about the warfare that exists between the A.K.A.s and the Deltas. I'm right about it. Because you're basing off of one interaction that you're about to tell me about? I'm basing it on another interaction that I've had. Okay. Aftco Awards, shout out to them. Went there yesterday. Great feeling in the room. Representing as I did too. We did it in different cities. We were both supposed to give an award for black people. Okay. And I went representing

higher learning. Joking. It was very fun. Shout to Aldous Hodge, Edwin Hodge, seeing my people again. Nick May, everybody's there. Ryan Coogler is the funniest guy in the world. Ryan Coogan gets up there, he accepts a war. He goes, yeah, I got this picture on my phone. Can y'all see it? And we're like, nah, Coogh. The most genuine, brilliant guy that we have going right now.

Anyway. So at the end of this thing, I'm talking to a sister. There's a little snafu. Not quite the end, like in the middle. And she tells me that she is, she pledged. She said she pledged. And I look at her and I go, oh, Delta. And she goes, oh, no.

And I'm like, whoa. And she goes, no, not a Delta. Okay. She goes, aka Alpha Chapter. And I'm like, oh. And she goes, yeah, no, not at all. And I'm like, there it is. I said, you made the podcast tomorrow.

I said, I keep trying to. What's her name? No, I'm not doing it. Why not? Because that's not what I do. I used to report people's names I don't report of me. She's proud of her sorority. She's definitely proud. Alpha chapter. Alpha chapter. Always impressive. Was that spellman I think Howard Howard Howard Howard Howard Howard.

Howard, Howard, Alpha chapter Howard. So she's she's she was very very into it but she did not want to be confused for Delta your thoughts. I think it's whack. I'm sorry there's no other way to say it. Now is somebody I have multiple times when people find out I pledge they say oh are you an AKA, I simply say, no, I'm not. I am a part of Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Incorporated. I don't go. Ugh. Yuck.

Which is basically what she did. And I think, that's why I think we just be proud of your sorority, as you should. I'm very proud. Be proud of the chapter you pledge, your school you went to, your lion sisters, just all of it. But we ain't trying to shit on the other people in the D9. That's kind of whack. I'm sorry. And something that A.K.A.s do.

Oh, I got there. Donnie. We don't do that. What's understood doesn't need to be seen. But I wouldn't do that. From the Eternal Ivy over here. You love that you know that terminology. I know all of it.

You don't know all of it, but you love that you know that. That's popular. People know that. But you just love throwing that out there. They tell the whole story like it's Marvel shit. They tell these stories, man. Man, shout out to these. You know what we're going to have?

Eternal Ivy. Or we just said, nah, this ain't it. Yeah. Let's go do it right. Wow. Tough, tough, tough, tough. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals. With Fandul PREDICT, predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner.

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flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Tramphiator Radio.com. All right, the big news out of the Super Bowl that a lot of people are talking about is bad bunnies performance at halftime.

It was early figures. You're looking like it was the most watched halftime performance of all time. This is like the second year in a row that that's happened. He's pulled in reportedly more than 135 million viewers. There were cameos, guest performances. What did you guys think of how Bad Bunny did on the big stage? I thought the show was good. As a, how about this? I thought the show was good as a halftime show, legitimately good as a half-time show. I thought as a piece of culture, it was phenomenal. Beautiful. Beautiful.

Were you discipline? Well, one, were you expecting to see more of an outright political protest? And if so, were you disappointed that you did not see that? This was political protest. No, that's why I said outright. Yeah. Because I think that, and maybe it would have been, because remember when Bad Bunny was announced,

it was ICE is going to be outside. ICE is going to be there. So there was this fighting back from the administration. They did not do that. And so I think that maybe if they had been met with that kind of, I don't know, force, then it would have been a little bit different. But I kind of thought it might have been more. But I thought the way that it was done was flawless in the sense that if you were hating

on what you saw, you really are just in denial of your own racism against Puerto Rico, Latinos and the entire culture because the way that it was laid out and such a joyous, symbolic, rooted in history and culture and all of that was just it was like performance as a protest

in the best way to me and if you felt otherwise I think that you're not being honest about the kind of person that you are. So this is what I'll say. First of all, the Bad Bunny performance was only going to be so good to me because I don't know any bad bunny

records. None. Not even like the Monaco song. I like it like that with Cardi B I know that. That's her song. I know but he's on the record. I don't really know any bad bunny records. I don't know. Like one time I'm passing over, I'm on a plane and SoFi is lit up

and they're going crazy at SoFi. Sofi a stadium going nuts. Okay, I'm like Jesus Christ. I can see it because like when you're flying into LA is something going on and so far, so far is all lit up and stuff like that.

I see that Bad Bunny has so far going like crazy like that. Bad Bunny is in stadiums. I'm in the loop on a great many things. I have been out of the loop on Bad Bunny. On Bad Bunny. Didn't know as much about Bad Bunny. Don't know Bad Bunny's music to that degree, right? Don't know it.

So when I'm watching the Super Bowl, I'm not going to be all over the moment. with these records and all of this stuff like that. I actually think that this was amongst the most rebellious performances I've ever seen. Because... At a Super Bowl.

Period. Period. Period. Now, there are rebellious performances like Kendrick Lamar performing on top of the burned out police car went crazy, all of that.

There's rebellious performances. Share ripping up. Let's share. Shenato. or ripping up the picture of the Pope on Saturday Night Live. There's sexually rebellious performances. Madonna, like a virgin,

I think the VMAs or the Grammys, whatever it was. This one, though, was to me when I looked at it, where it was, how it happened and how he chose to do that performance was an indictment to me

of the NFL audience. So I love to overanalyze. You guys have been listening to this podcast for a long time. Well, this was a performance to do that in. Right. But like, you know, for me, when I looked at Bad Bunny,

the idea that I came away from in the performance was that America doesn't need translation. There's no translation needed, right? everything that you saw is American. And that's why. The diversity is American. The music from Bad Bunny.

It's American. All of the people, all of the customs, it's all American. It's a part of what America is. Exactly. Whether you like it or not, it doesn't need translation. A lot of times, like, even for me, I think of myself as a cultural translator. Right. as somebody who takes something

I understand and makes sense of it for somebody else. Well, really, that's minimizing. That assumes that having value centers an idea that to me is ripping the country apart at the shreds, which is the idea that some people are average, regular Americans that should be catered to and other people aren't. and that entry into the project of this entry into it being equality, equity, even being thought of, that that needs somebody to explain why it's okay for you.

That needs someone needs to explain why you're a part of that. Yeah. Because the average American, the NFL watching public, they can. can't handle something in Spanish, Spanish, not American. They can't handle queer people on the stage. Queer, not American. They can't handle black people in the performance of black people, not American. They can't handle someone that asserts all of these things.

We're a part of this. This is, we're the backbone of it in many ways. Starts off with people working. Cutting what looked like sugar cane. Sugar cane, legitimately the thing that you take and put on other stuff that you're to make it sweeter. Like we make your country sweeter. We make it taste better. And our contributions aren't ancillary. They're fundamental. They're a fundamental part of this whole thing. And you guys don't get to say that what we're doing isn't about this country. You guys don't

get to say that how we're being, that our being, that who we are, that we're not building blocks of this thing, you don't get to say it. Yeah. And so to me, when I saw him do all of that, the fact that he was uncompromising, there was not one thing in the performance meant to be accessible. This is who we are. This is what we are on the biggest stage, the biggest celebration that America has. this is us, we are you. The only thing I'll say that was accessible was the message of unity, right? Like, there were non-Latinos

on the stage. You know, you had Lady Gaga. Mm-hmm. When they're dancing on stage, it's like the second, like the very, the second thing after, maybe he's still singing T.T.M. Precunto, I can't remember.

But like Alex Earls on the stage, a lot of people had an issue with that. But I think that, I think to your point about accessibility was the unity part, right? Like, you can't, like, what we have is beautiful. It's great. It's joyous. You shouldn't be threatened by it.

You shouldn't want to gentrify it. There's a message of that in there. You shouldn't want to water it down. You too can appreciate this and be a part of this as well. It was an invitation. And I love what you're talking about about the Americas part because at the end, when he's shouting out, every country in the Americas basically saying,

and the messages on the football, Like we're all like together we are America. America doesn't have to look a certain way. And in the same way when Kendrick performed, the pride we felt because his performance, you know, with Samuel Jackson playing Uncle Sam and, you know, it was about race and identity and social justice or injustice, I should say, and all about like America's past problems and troubles, that's what this meant. I felt like they were doing at the same time for representation.

when it came to Latinos. I mean, even the song that Ricky Martin was singing, Loque Le Paso Hawaii, it means what happened to Hawaii? It's about gentrification. It's about like what happened in Hawaii and like how beautiful. Colonization. Well, yes, well, that goes back to the sugar cane as well at the top of the show.

But what's happening in Puerto Rico, you have people from America, I mean, from the United States, coming to Puerto Rico and like living in certain places. living in certain places and it's affecting the electricity and, you know, like they haven't necessarily recovered in ways of, from since the hurricane that devastated Puerto Rico. Like talking about it like that, about like how don't change what we have. We're rich. We're a part of it.

You don't have to water it down or whitewash it to feel welcome to for us to fit in. We can all be a part of this. I just thought it was just, it was so rich when I watched it. And I love the point that you make about. Like, it didn't necessarily. You didn't have to necessarily understand the words to understand the meaning behind it. Yeah. And I think he knew that, which is why it was so rich visually.

I think the reason why you got so much visually is because he knew that there would be a lot of people that wouldn't understand that he was saying, what he was saying, and that he had to give it to people and more than just the hits, give the message to people. I will say that I do think that unity is an inaccessible message right now. I think that just like even that though, even the idea that we're stronger together, love, combats, hate, that bothers people now. Because I do. I think like right now people are saying, well, listen, I'm in an existential fight for who I am and the other side is not interested in unity. They're interested in dominance.

So even that coming out there and saying, I know y'all don't like me, I know. know y'all don't like me when i'm saying y'all i'm not talking to the vast i'm talking to the people that you knew we're going to have a problem with this give an example of it right now uh talking to them i know you guys aren't going to like this this is who i am this is who we are and like it or not it's who you are and it's who you've always been and we don't have to hide anymore we don't have to pretend like we're something lesser than what we are we don't have to sing this in a language that you understand we don't have to have to be it's a language that you understand we don't have to not put queer people. This is really what we're asking from the Democrats. We don't have

to not put queer people in it. We don't have to make it. You don't deserve subtitles. It's not it's not all about you Otis or was it was it nobody came to see me, Otis. Yes, nobody came to see you. I'll tell you this. Go back and watch that movie all the time. Same. I'm not so sure they got it right. Wait, okay, detour for a second. Which part did they not get right? The tempts, man. So you think people did come to see Otis?

Is that the part you're talking about? No, no, no, no, no, no. David Ruffin was right. So it should have been David Ruffin and the temptations? Maybe he went too far in that situation. But the reality is that when David was saying that nobody came to see Otis, really what Otis should have been like was, man, you're right. Otis won't

Because Otis put the group together Odus Remember that So there would not be no David Because Otis Because you go back and watch All the time I see it all time

Otis put the group together So there would be no David Ruffin A part of the temptations If it wasn't for Otis Facts Ain't nobody coming to see you Otis

They're coming to see me I'm selling the records I'm selling the records And let's tell you something Is last thing Before we move off this I could also argue that that movie

was pro-Otis propaganda. Because he's the only one alive. He was the one that made the movie. And in the movie, people would be like, man, I tell you what, it all happened when you had a dream, Otis. I'd be like, all right, man.

It did start off like that. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Pro-Otis propaganda. I'm more at my David Ruff and shit at this point. Pro-O-Dotis propaganda. And so now the question is, man, would they even have been rocking like that if they wouldn't have found David?

Well, they wouldn't have. Remember, come on now, you saw the movie. Remember, they kept, they had all these records that weren't popping off until they put David in. I wrote this one for David. I wrote this for David. I bet you did, motherfucker. All right.

But David led to the destruction of Paul. Yeah, David went to, you know, just go watch the temptation movie. You know what, we got, we black and we got stories. So this, I saw this whole thing happen, and this is actually pretty interesting to me. Jake Paul. So Jake Paul did what the entire right is doing right now.

People on the right. Okay? I'm just letting you know right now. You're smelling y'all yourselves a little bit. Y'all have been winning for a long time and y'all think y'all can never lose. The losses are coming. You guys in the middle of it is happening right now. I'll tell what happened to Jake Paul.

Cautionary tale. Jake Paul tweets this. He goes, purposefully turning off the half. the halftime show let's rally together and show big corporations they can't just do whatever they want without consequences of Jake which each which equals viewership for them you are of their benefit realize you have power turn off this half time a fake American citizen performing who publicly hates America I cannot support that okay two things fake American citizen fake American citizen second thing performing who publicly hates America I cannot support that that. Jake Paul got what we call a little pushback to that tweet, which 50 million people saw. Saw the tweet. 50 million people. Jake was out there doing numbers. First of all, the pushback came from Logan Paul, who is Jake Paul's brother. Always starts with contextualizing a relationship.

I love my brother, but I don't agree with this. Puerto Ricans are Americans, and I'm happy that they were giving the opportunity to showcase the talent that comes from the island. Little context here. Jake Paul. And maybe Logan Paul, I'm not sure, but Jake Paul for sure, they live in Puerto Rico about 50% of the time. Yeah, I know people. And that's part of what the protest was.

They live in Puerto Rico about 50% of the time. Some people say it's for tax purposes. What else would it be? Maybe they went down there and they fell in love. They live Lovita Loka. Who knows? There's a community that's built out there. It's not like they're like in the city.

that interesting okay all right then came criticism from someone else Amanda Serrano who is a fantastic female boxer fantastic boxer female or otherwise she's the first fighter that Jake Paul signed to his most valuable promotions um and she came out with a longer message says tonight I'm here where I'm supposed to be in my beautiful island with my people celebrating and watching and with awe how well Benito represented us and our culture I am proud to be be Puerto Rican, I am proud to be an American citizen. Puerto Ricans are not fake Americans. We are citizens who have contributed to this country in every field for military services, sports, business, science, and the arts, and our identity and citizenship deserve respect.

I would not have the opportunities that I have today without the support and belief that most value promotions in Jake Paul show in me and will always be grateful for the role that they have played in helping change my life in elevating women's boxing and in elevated women's boxing. At the same time, I want to be clear. I do not agree with statements that question the legitimacy or identify or identity of Puerto Rican people. And I cannot support that characterization. It is wrong. I fight with the pride of Puerto Rico and represent my flag every time I step into the ring.

I will always stand with my people and respect, with respect for who we are and pride and where we come from. I will never change and will forever be a proud Borequo. The fuck I'm talking about. Yeah, that's exactly what she should say. Now, I will say that for all of us, myself included, because I do this sometime, the part where you go, I would not have the opportunities I have today without the support that, look, sometimes we get into the, I even say it sometimes, hey man, this is true about TMZ, but just understand that I wouldn't be where I was unless I get that.

I'm going to stop doing that just because I've done it enough. And sometimes you just got to say the thing and you need to cut ass when it's time to cut ass. In this situation, I do not have obviously any issue with her doing that. It's hard not to have reverence and respect for people who helped you on your come up. It just is, right? But this is a

fantastic message. It then led to Jake Paul responding and saying, guys, I love that bunny. I don't know what happened on my Twitter last night. What the fuck? Before that, he made the attempt. Oh, go ahead. You did. No, yeah. Before that, he said he wanted to clarify that he

wasn't calling anyone a fake citizen because they're from Puerto Rico. He goes on to say, I live in Puerto Rico. I love Puerto Rico. I've used my platform to support Puerto Rico time and time again, and I will always do so. But if you're publicly criticizing eyes who are doing their job and openly hating on America, I'm going to speak on it, period. That's the same reason I called out Hunter Hess. If you benefit from a country and the platform that it gives you, but publicly disrespected at the same time, that's what I mean about being a fake citizen. And I agree, love is more powerful than hate, love America. But also, that's not what Bad Bunny is doing.

Okay. That's not what Bad Bunny is doing. And also, Jake is just straight up fucking line. Yeah. All right. So what Jake meant was that Bad Bunny was a fake American because he is not, because he's from Puerto Rico. And he said it pretty clearly.

He said a fake American citizen performing, fake American citizen performing, that's one thought, who publicly hates America. That's a different thought. I cannot support that. So he's both a fake American and someone that is, that publicly hates America. So he's not a fake American because he publicly hates America. First of all, two completely un-American thoughts. There is nothing more un-American, un-American, if that term even exists,

then saying that because you are from here or because you live here, that you should not be critical or have questions about your government or the way things are going here. Correct. That's just like legitimately. I just never understood that. So people go out and so you should respect the people that fought and made inroads in America so that respecting that means not using the rights that they fought for. That's respect.

No, it's actually the opposite. So number one, that doesn't even make any sense. Right, right, right. Number two, Jake Paul in this situation was parroting the talking point that the right had had for weeks before this, some people erroneously, moronically, saying that Bad Bunny is an American. Right.

Not understanding that he's a citizen of Puerto Rico, excuse me, that he's from Puerto Rico, which makes him a citizen of the country. So some of them just straight up didn't have the information. Then the anti-Americanness of it was kind of filtered through the belief that because Bad Bunny is not speaking English, because he's not from Tallahassee, Toledo fucking Modesto Springfield

that he is somehow less American than somebody else who would have been up there that idea is what the fuck we're talking about that idea is kind of the idea

that allows people to abuse and take advantage of you. You're actually not entitled to any of this like we're more American than you. Bad Buddy said

English may not be my first language but it wasn't this country's first language either. Yeah. People seem to forget that. Forget it all the time.

Yeah, Jake Paul, we all know how I feel about Jake Paul on this. Did you see that there was video of Trump at a Super Bowl watch party? And you guys know, Turning Point USA did their alternative halftime show that was in direct response to Bad Bunny. Bad Bunny doing it because

because they wanted to do a real, American show. Trump was at a Super Bowl watch party and there was someone recording him sitting at the table and in the background was not the turning point USA halftime show. It was

the bad bunny halftime show. And to my knowledge, at least to this point, correct if I'm wrong, he hasn't even spoken about this American halftime show that they did. Did you watch it? I had to see. I had, I didn't watch it in real time. I had to go back on

YouTube and see what it was that they were talking about. And the only thing I'll say to this is, it was awful, it was terrible, it was a lot of American flags and a lot of Charlie Kirk. It was a lot of in remembrance of Charlie Kirk, Charlie Kirk photos, Charlie Kirk videos, this one's for you, Charlie. It was a lot of that. They basically were making him Jesus Christ, which we've seen them do multiple times before. I thought the wildest thing was at the very end of Kid Rock's performance, he's singing a song. I don't know. It's somebody else's song, but he talks about how he always wanted to write a verse. And the entire verse is about loving Jesus and Jesus dying on the cross. And everybody goes crazy. And I thought, wow, once again, here we are using Jesus in name only and not the morals and

values that he teaches. You're literally using Jesus' name to promote your idea of what it is to be a real American when the moral, who Jesus Christ was and what he stands for. actually would have been at Benito's performance, welcoming and ushering in the whole message that he was out there giving. Anyways, that's my take on it. Zach Bryan said, I don't care what sides you're on,

a bunch of adults throwing tipper tantrums and their own halftime show is embarrassing to hell the most crudiest shit on the planet. Hey, throw whatever, throw whatever shit that you want, okay? Throw whatever parties you want. Just throw them. I don't give a fuck. Have your own.

I actually, as an idea, I don't mind it. You guys have your, do I wish sometimes that we could have a black version of whatever and do it? Do your thing. I don't mind it. But I'm just telling you right now, the optics don't look great because Bad Bunny had Pedro Pascal, Jessica Alba and Cardi B, and everybody is in the thing. And if I'm picking parties, I don't know, man.

Like, it's like, if you're giving the kids, just to the turning point, people, y'all might want to go out there and see who else y'all can buy. Nicky Minaj is not going to get it done. Y'all might want to see who else y'all can do, right? Because if I'm looking at the two parties, right, and I see Jessica Alba and Cardi B, right? See Pedro Pascal. I see the party that's going on at the Super Bowl. You're making your own brand look whack. I mean, I don't know.

I mean, I'm sure there are a lot of people that were not as mean as they said. And I'm sure that there are a lot of people that want to hang out with Kid Rock for a night. But shit, man, that other shit look popping, especially in comparison. The stage, the whole deal, it just, I don't think, I think that the conservatives at this point have had such a dynamite idea about who they are for a long time. I just don't know if they know anymore. Well, I think that they're definitely flying too close to the sun, which we've talked about before on this podcast. and they're so caught up in their own stuff, they're losing their way.

But to your point, which is what, which was also a part of the brilliance of the performance that Bad Bunny did, the whole message was unity, and then on the other side of it, you have Turning Point USA saying, no, we're gonna do our own thing. We actually want division.

We don't like your kind, we wanna do something different. And Bad Bunny's just like, we're all one. I just wanna usher us all in. How can you fight against that? Yeah, it's what they've been fighting against for a long time. Why don't you think they had Nikki Minaj perform? Well, I mean, why didn't have her out there? Mm-hmm.

They couldn't get, maybe they couldn't get it. Because she was booked? I mean, she could be booked. Or maybe, maybe, listen, I don't know. Maybe they asked for. I'm just curious. It's just, I, it's. Well, I guess the question would be this.

If you're asking me, would Nikki perform as something she's not headlining that. And if Kit Rock is the headliner, you know, he's the draw that stirs the mag a drink. It's just wild. He's the guy. He's the dude. So the question would be, if Nikki was at that, would Nicky be like, I want to perform last? Will Keir Rock say, no, she can't perform last? Of course he just got here. So would there be a back and forth there. Well, is it that or is it that we want to use you in a

certain way? We're talking about our real America and we're going to close with a black woman headlining the show. You think they're not really fucking with it like they say they are. Of course. She's a pawn and all of it. Yes, say these talking points and we're going to use you as a speaker on the stage, but the draw and the headlining of their show,

I think that that pretty much says it all. Because if Nikki Minaj has gone this far, there's no way she would not want to perform at this show. Yeah. But she probably wanted to be the whole... She did. And they didn't want you to. And that's the message.

Free game for Nikki and them out there. if they put her out there and then Keir Rock is the headliner now they're just kicking the barbs and they're just kicking Nikki's legacy in its face right like she she can't go behind Keir Rock

this is the thing see this is the type of shit I would do if I was trying to destabilize see the FBI back in the day sent Elders letters and they sent Huey letters and they were like people don't like they're trying to kill each other

right now if you're really trying to drive a wedge Send letters to Kid Rock Be like, hey man There's a new music star Bigger than you Okay, bigger than you On the turning point horizon You need to watch this

And then send the same letters To Nicky Minaj Say hey, just to let you know They favor the white boy Why didn't you headline the Super Bowl This is the only time you're gonna get to do it Because that other shit is out now Right? Why didn't you headline it?

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Order now at order. Dot sweetgreen.com. Oh, you know what? You know what happened Friday night? What race? Donnie? Yeah, Trump kicked off his Super Bowl weekend with some late night posting,

one of which included a image. The video ended with an image of the Obama's with their faces on apes. The post was up there for a while. They deleted it about 12 hours after. It was posted. The White House blamed the staffer for erroneously posting it. And then Trump was asked directly about it aboard Air Force One. And this is what he had to say. The White House says that a staffer sent it. Who sent it and are you going to fire that? I looked at it. I saw it. And I

just looked at the first part. It was about voter fraud in someplace, Georgia. There was a lot of voter fraud, 2020 motorfront. And I didn't see the whole thing. I guess during the end of it, There was some kind of a picture that people don't like. I wouldn't like it either, but I didn't see it. I just, I looked at the first part, and it was really about voter fraud and the machines, how crooked it is, how disgusting it is. Then I gave it to the people, to generally they'd look at the whole thing, but I guess somebody didn't.

They posted, and we took it down, and we did it. But that was a voter fraud that nobody talks about. They don't like to talk about that. post. We took it down as soon as we found out about it. Mr. President, a number of Republicans are calling on you to apologize for that post. Is that something you're going to do? No, I didn't make a mistake. I mean, I look at a lot of thousands of things. And I looked at the beginning of it, it was fine.

They had that one post, and I guess it was a takeoff. By the way, a lot of people covered. If you look at where it came from, I guess it was a takeoff on the Lion King. Take off on the Lion King. So I was livid. Okay. I was livid. And this was unifying.

Tim Scott was upset. Stephen A. Smith was upset. Robert Griffin III was upset. There's a lot of people out here that were upset and mad about this post. Now, the White House has since gone to great lengths, even beyond what the president said to sort of launder this. there's been no apology. It's Black History Month. The Obama's as apes

were depicted two of the most beloved people in all of Black America. We're going to talk to Jamel Hill about that a little bit later as well. Rachel, what's the deal? What's the thing? What do you mean? What's the deal?

What's the thing? That Trump is a full-blown racist? You know, like, let's just say, okay, let's just take it. what he says. Somebody on his staff in the middle of him going on a rant of all these things he was posting on social

media in a row. And somebody else was doing it. It wasn't him. Posted this video and they didn't watch the whole thing and they didn't realize what they posted. Okay, let's just say that that is actually true because plausible

deniability is very convenient here for Donald Trump. Not just in this instance, this is just what he does, and his administration does all the time. There's always an excuse for everything, even though, in my opinion, this is a clear dog whistle for in a coded message, for his base, and to normalize this type of behavior,

and have those black people who are on, who are MAGA, find a way to take up and support him, right? Because there are definitely those people who are doing that. But let's just say that that is true. why would you not then when questioned you shouldn't you have to shouldn't I have have not even been question but why would you not say it was a mistake and I'm sorry that people were offended by it it's not what I believe and I'm sorry that some people were upset by what they saw even if it was a mistake just like easy surface level compassion about the people who

maybe support you, look up to you, support the office, want better for the, whatever it may be. And the reason is, is because he does not give a fuck about black people and who he offended. He is not sorry. Even if we take his story as the truth,

he still could not fix his mouth to say, I hate that people were offended by it. I can imagine how disturbing that would be. You know, I didn't do it. It's no excuse. He didn't even have to necessarily say, that he wasn't going to, that what he was going to do to the person who did it. Just a simple acknowledgement that people were offended and upset.

He couldn't even do it. He centered himself. He said it wasn't me. I did not make the mistake. Can we move on now from it? That is who President Trump is. So as you add that to the laundry list of all the things, because even if this was a one-off, right?

And people say, well, he's never done anything like this before. It's not, though, right? You add it to the list of the things. he said about Haitians, to the way that he's gone after Somalians, to the way that he is weaponizing ice in this country, to the way he talks about immigrants, to the travel ban or the banning of visas that he has for only black and brown countries that are trying to, you know, people trying to become citizens in this country. Whatever it is, it adds to the list of a pattern with him that he is racist. And that's what it is at the end of the day. So for all the people who try to excuse it

or back it up, you really are just trying to look another way or somehow trying to use it for your own benefit. I don't know, but Trump is a racist. Yeah. Very true. I mean, you know, at this point, there's all kinds of different opinions here, right? And you think about kind of the way

that you're supposed to come to this, right? What are you supposed to say? all right so to me the most fundamental part of this is what the depiction of black people as apes actually means and you know we we talk about like insults and caricatures and all of this stuff and you know how what it means to people and how it comes off and you know whether or not you should have thick skin and you know the fundamental part of this to me is that

there is a Western mythology and that mythology is that black people are subhuman and we think that we've conquered that mythology but we have it that mythology is at the basis

of every single systemic failure that exists involving black people. You eat terrible food because you're less human. You're killed easier by the police because you are less human. Okay, you don't deserve access to housing, to health care. You're less human. Your women die more frequently in childbirth, right?

They die more frequently bringing more humans into the world. It's not a big deal. who cares if they die having babies who cares who gives a shit like what are you you are the same thing as a pet as a dog meaning you're something that we might have fun with but at the end of the day you are a lower life form

right um that was one of the building blocks um of this entire deal the main one really because you whip somebody with the whip you know you scarred it back up like in Django These niggers are tough Turn around

Showing them off Selling them All of that stuff You're an animal Your cattle It's part of it I'm not breaking any news It's part of it

It's part of it right You have something Where the two Most prominent Black people In America right now Arguably maybe ever I mean there

Obviously a lot of prominent Black Americans But they're apes Right They're animals By the way Just something else The people

Who made that video When they were Making everyone Into different animals, making the Obama's into apes was a direct choice. Yes. It was a direct choice to make them into apes because there are no guerrillas in the lion king.

Exactly. Right? So like doing that whole, that's a direct choice. If you ask me how deeply my shit goes is the video was made specifically to do that, right? The video was made specifically to do that and then you put everybody else in it as a little window dressing. It's such an error, not an error. It's such a thing for the president to do. Remember who the president is. The president is somebody with a tweet or with the statement can set policy. Can set policy monetarily. Can set policy in terms of foreign policy. Can set all different types of policy. Just by saying it. The United States is going to do this now. It becomes policy. Doctrine becomes doctrine just by the president making a speech. Part of the Trump doctrine now, is that black people are apes. That's part of the Trump doctrine.

And Trump won't unsay it. No. Trump easily, and all you guys, you Trump supporters, all right, all of the people out there, you guys say it was a mistake. He can easily say,

easily, I don't believe that that is untrue. That takes nothing unless it does. It actually does take something. If Trump were to do that, here's the part of it a large part of his base would be disappointed a large part of his base

who does believe that is ecstatic that they think that the president believes it is ecstatic that he's with them they like that they want that that is the thing that moves and animates them because you guys remember the Republicans in my opinion are choosing

to fight for America with the Democrats Why? I legitimately and truly believe what I'm about to say. If the Republican Party took the no niggas allowed sign off of their political movement, they would have a monopoly on American politics that would last for 50 to 100 years. Because a lot of the black people that I know, they are conservative. They are conservative when you talk to them about different things, that involve the gay community

when you talk to them about capitalism, when you talk to them about a great number of things. They are conservative. They skew conservative because there is a tradition of the church

that they come from. The thing that animates them is that the Republican Party as oriented around the Southern strategy doesn't fucking want them. Like the modern Republican Party was created in response to the civil rights movement.

They exist. The GOP, as we know it, they exist so that niggas can't have nothing. That's their purpose. And they are so dedicated to that purpose that the base of the party has to stay obviously and virulately racist. That is a part of the drink. And it don't matter whether is Mitt Romney or Bobby. Abdul or Donald Trump. They're just getting to the point now

where it's a little harder to quiet it. So they enjoy this. They like it. Tim Scott came out to say something about this. One of the smallest slivers of bravery from Tim Scott. And

Laura Lumer nuked him. Because Tim Scott is expected to launder this, to make sense out of this, and to play his role in that party, which is the role of a good boy. Now, that's a lot of people in the other party playing roles as good boys too.

I'm sorry, I got to say it. But the reality of the situation is they've cast their die. They like it. And so to me, when I looked at the entire thing, I just hope you guys know to the people that are still willing to listen. I just hope you guys know that this is how it is now. this is how it is in the past and this is how it's going to be

from that political movement. Yeah, I can't even give Tim Scott anything. Very well said. Too many people were silent. Too many people were silent for I too believe the very reason that you just said. You would think that more people would be outraged by this and they necessarily weren't.

Tim Scott, the exact tweet that Tim Scott wrote and you almost can feel the trepidation. when he wrote this. Praying it was fake. Now, come on. That's how he starts off. Praying it was fake. You know it's not fake,

but that was almost like a little disclaimer, like just in case. He says praying it was fake because it's the most racist thing I've seen out of this White House. The president should remove it. Have you heard from Tim Scott since? No, Tim Scott guys motion orders.

No, because one, what you said about Laura Lumer, and two, President Trump was asked about it, And his response was, I've talked to Tim Scott. It's all good. Tim's a great guy, which means he got Tim in line. Tim doesn't still feel this. We haven't heard him say anything from it. Trump has been confronted by the media about it.

It has been removed, but they've asked him why he has not apologized. Doesn't think he should. Doesn't think it was wrong. Has it said a thing. Where is Tim Scott? Right back where we left him before. Right back where he always is in line with the rest of them. So I ain't given this anything.

last thing um uh listen for everyone out there is like Trump's been a racist we already knew that he was a racist I get it I understand that like Trump was a racist we already knew Trump was racist

what's new we already knew Trump was I get it I understand I understand I understand what you guys are talking about I get it I understand I understand what I'm saying is um there's an unfortunate reality that uh the president of the United States is an important figure in the world.

That's an unfortunate reality. So we're never going to get to a point to where what the president does doesn't matter. Does it? The president says he wants to take over a country. That matters. That reshapes the world order. NATO, president says he wants to annex Canada. That matters.

President says he's going to fire a guy because he won't change the interest rate. It matters. It matters. President Post Black people as monkeys Matters And not everybody Everybody has different jobs

Everybody has different jobs Some people to keep your head down Continue to work on the thing Everybody has different jobs I keep saying that we don't believe it Everybody has different jobs So not everybody has to care But it is it is some people's job to care

And to call that out And put that where it needs to be All right Before we get to Jamel I want to show you I want to Epstein Epi. Okay, there's so much coming out, Rachel.

Rachel, there's so much coming out. You must be thrilled. Rachel, there's so much coming out. Epi, epi, epi. Okay, it's going crazy right now. Not nicknaming it. Okay, listen, there's the Department of Justice, according to the Daily Beast, they put out a document that announced the death of Jeffrey Epstein.

Donnie, I'm taking this one, a day before he died. His document is dated. Friday, August 9th, 2019, Epstein was discovered the next day. August 10th. And this is on letterhead. It's on letterhead. Southern District of New York, okay? This is on letterhead.

What does that mean, Rachel? Could it be a typo? Maybe. But what if it's not? What if it's not? Well, what if it's not? I can't live in the what if. What if it's not?

But you got to live in the what if. So you saw this. Yeah. What did it? you say? Do you feel like your suspicions were true? This proves it. This is the smoking gun. Okay, so this is all I'll say.

All right, this is what I'll say. Jeffrey Epstein was arrested and he was due to be on trial for all of this stuff and he died. He died before he was due to be on this stuff. Galane Maxwell right now according to his reports, is saying that she's not

going to talk or say anything else unless Trump gets her out of prison. I want you guys to listen to what I'm saying. Galane Maxwell's getting out of prison Galane Maxwell is getting out of prison She's getting out of prison She's about to start tightening the wrench a little bit The DOJ is going to great lengths

To make sure that we don't think That there's any there there with all of this stuff Little stuff like this The fact that he died Before the fact that now there's more information Coming out about the video Right? Yeah, I saw that There has got to be

some evidence of who Jeffrey Epstein was supplying these young girls to. There's got to be evidence. This has to be something more. There's too much going on. There are too many people involved. Yes, it's a cultural indictment of a class of people. I get it. Who is handling Jeffrey Epstein?

Who's running Jeffrey Epstein? Who facilitated the death of Jeffrey Epstein? Let's say that he actually killed himself. if he killed himself is that some I'm a spy break my tooth cyanide capsule type of shit

to where if I'm caught or captured now I can't be pressed upon to give up the secrets of the whole world who knows who knows

but Rachel I can't I understand you gotta get into it right this goes all the way back did you know before we move on

to Jamel did you know that's actually an accident that all of this stuff happened which stuff Okay, so listen to me real quick.

There were a lot of allegations about Jeffrey Epstein in the 90s, or enough, should I say, right? There was actually a whole Vanity Fair piece where the author of the Vanity Fair piece had actually talked to a lot of people who claimed to be Jeffrey Epstein's victims. This is in the 90s. He shows up to Vanity Fair, and he threatens the editor of Vanity Fair. Whole piece gets changed. So it never came out. So it never came out. So it never came out.

Hope peace gets changed, okay? but the way authorities in Florida got on to this is there was some type of fight between two girls at a high school and when the two girls like wild things which we recently covered on

the watchables when the girls fought one of them dropped some knowledge about the other one, called her a whore or something like that. The mother gets this in her head, calls the police. The police start investigating all of this stuff. They go through Jeffrey Epstein's garbage they find stuff. Like he apparently got flowers

for a girl that's in high school because she was in a play of some sort. They started looking to tell what is this guy fucking doing? What is this guy into? He's using girls and selling them around and doing all kinds of.

But it's a local police department. So they're not hooked in to the higher thing. They're like going for it. Right? It's almost, it comes out of nowhere. By the time it gets to the federal level, that's when Acosta gets involved.

involved and gives Jeffrey Epstein the sweetheart deal. It's the feds. It's the Epstein class that saves him. The local people were like, we want this scum out of our community. All right. We want this guy gone. I'm telling you, this wasn't even supposed to happen. So by the time he gets to, see all it is, by the time he gets to the end of it, right,

he might have actually killed himself. He might have killed himself. But he might have killed himself because either the Israelis or the Russians or someone, the United States government was handling him and was like, hey, you don't get yourself out of here. We're going to get yourself, we're going to get you out of here. Then we're going to hurt people that you know and stuff like that. Who knows?

We don't know. Okay. You know what? You know what? Yeah, it's fine. I take the information as it comes to me. I don't jump into, I saw this and I thought, wow, that's really interesting. That really plays into a lot of what people think.

And then I also am like, could it have been a typo? Yeah, you know what? It's fine. Sometimes do you mix up days of the week? This is the deal that's happening. This is the thing that's happening. I'm spending so much time digging into this stuff. Like I'm coming back over here and I'm trying to talk to it.

There's something going on. I want to want to answer. There is something going on. I want to look and check something really quickly. No, you don't want to check anything. I don't know what's going on. I'm going to start looking at you. Okay.

I'm going to start scouring these things. I'm going to start looking at you in a second. What's going on? So this is interesting. What? This is what I wanted to look at. Okay. Because we were like, it's a typo.

It's, oh, wait, no, I looked at that wrong. Yeah. Never mind, that's wrong. That's wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's wrong. Yeah, it's wrong. It's wrong because you know who's right?

What I was going to look at. I wanted to go back and see if the day of the week was wrong or right, too. That's what I was going back to look at. But Friday, Ox. No, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. He died on Saturday, August 10.

It's something to note. It's something to note. We're getting it. Did you know that Epstein was on the trilateral commission? No. How the fuck does Jeffrey Epstein get on the trilateral? Like, there's no denying. Nobody knows how Jeffrey Epstein made his money.

There's no denying that somebody, that he's like, who's the person behind him? He said he was a traitor at Bear Stearns. There's no evidence. Yeah, there's no denying that. Leslie Webster gave Jeffrey Epstein power of attorney over his whole shit. Can I ask you a question? Every time you buy a thong from Victoria's Secret back in the day, you was giving money to Epstein. You didn't make that decision.

Can I ask you a question? The elites made that decision for you. Can I ask you a question? Why do you think? she's still alive. Who? Gis Lane. Is that you say it? Galane, yeah. Galane. Why do you think Galane is still alive? Okay. Last thing I'll say

before we get to Jamel. I think that Galane knows a lot. Mm-hmm. She knows a lot. Two things I think. Number one, I think that she knew she was waiting for the possibility of there being a Trump administration to use

maximum leverage in her case. Because her case was still being adjudicated while Biden was in office, right? So maximum leverage was going to be when Donald Trump was in office if he won the election because his, Joe Biden, whatever you guys want to say,

is not mentioning this shit at all, right? Not Joe Biden, not Hunter Biden, not anybody like that. They're not mentioning this shit. So unless he was going to care about somebody else that was wrapped up and involved in this stuff, you weren't going to be able to exert

that much influence over that particular administration. Don't get me wrong. Plenty of people on the left, you guys, this disgustingness is bipartisan. But I think that Galang Maxwell, and probably a lot of her people, realize that she'd have significant leverage over the Trump administration during this time. All right. So that is true. She knows enough to embarrass a lot of people and get a lot of people caught up. So that is true. However, she was brought into this situation when Jeffrey Epstein's identity and personality and movements and all of this stuff was well established. She comes a lot later.

His rise to prominence is way before Gleine Maxwell was around. So there might be things about Jeffrey Epstein's movements that she actually doesn't know. She might be a party to a lot of this stuff. She is a party to a lot of stuff. She's convicted of being a party to a lot of this stuff. but there actually might be ways that he's being handled and other stuff that makes her death too high leverage because if he dies,

right, crazy circumstances, that's one thing. If she dies, that's now actually confirmation that they're getting these people out of here. Like tomorrow if there's a riot at the prison, Attica, Attica! And then like fucking Galane Maxwell gets killed in the prison riot, everyone right away is going to be like, all right, it's up.

Now we got to have a Senate subcommittee here. Her death becomes decidedly high leverage after you've already killed him. And there might be some type of calculus in the brains of the they that is actually not worth killing her because her knowledge and her involvement to all of this stuff doesn't go as deep

as Jeffries does. Jamel Hill next. You know what? You know, it's fine. like you know we'll be a different podcast then rachel we'll be the podcast where we don't you know what it's fine i'm talking to you but i just don't i don't share your excitement but i'm here to talk about it i'm here interesting okay all right now i'm about to search some different names in that bitch all right jemelle here on the other side of this point i can only imagine you at home just vigorously

typing names into it to see who you know about you love a man in that bitch all right jimel here this episode is brought to you by weather tech everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess you don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping then you'd want a cargo liner or road trip goes sideways ketchup goes rogue ice cream drips yeah you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors so just to be clear as the mud you're inevitably going to step into the summer you don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer visit weathertech.com today This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business to keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. Right.

All right. Jamel Hill is joining us on How I Learning Today. Jamel, we, you know, the reason why that intro was so raggedy is because we already been talking and I feel like everyone has a cultural understanding of who you are.

I could introduce you and say award-winning podcast hosts, writer for the Atlantic, former co-hosts of Way Down in the Hole, featured commentary. on Vice TVs, out of bounds, the sports betting room, which premiered on January 29th.

We could talk about so many things, but everyone knows the Jamel Hill brand. You feel like that? I don't, actually. Really? I know, that might sound weird to say. First, let me just say, I'm so happy to be in studio with both of you.

You know, I've been waiting to get the call. I was like, what is it going to take for me to get on higher learning? I thought we had you on before. I feel like a long time. It was a long time. It was Zoom. And it was, y'all, y'all like a different pod now.

You know what I'm saying? It was like, when am I going to be invited in studio to be in your company? And so I'm very happy. We're happy to have you here. Okay. Anytime you want to talk about anything. I want to make sure because you and Carrie are back together, Flavorant and Funny Podcast. Correct.

And that is on currently. It is. Yep. You guys just started. We just started. We started the last week of January, three times a week, Monday, Wednesday, Friday. I know. It's like a real job.

It's unbelievable on IHeart, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get them. Also YouTube, y'all know the Spiel. And so, but getting back to your question, it's like, you know, I'm just out here being me. Believe it or not, I don't put a whole lot of thought into some of the things that I do. And sometimes you can tell that I do not put a lot of thought into it. But, you know, I just hope that however people receive me that they know that I'm being me. I mean, Van and Rachel, you guys have been around me enough to know. this is what it is.

I mean, it's just more or less customers depending on environment. That's it. Speak on the plight of the smart black lady. Well, that assumes that I think I am one. I mean, I think I'm reasonably intelligent. There is, to me, a lot of the sisters that I talk to, Tiffany Cross, who is great,

has a smart black lady. It's a brilliant black lady. Yes. She has a book coming out that I feel like specifically deals with what it's like to exist. as her, as joy, as Carrie, as you, as Angela, as an outspoken, as Rachel, as an outspoken, brilliant black woman at a time like this.

So what you want to do is obviously you want to talk to people and meet them where they are, but you have to be able to do that without getting frustrated. I mean, what keeps me in check, honestly, is one some of the conversations I have with my mother everybody's mama is able to relate to them in a different way. And also just talking to like really boots on the ground activists. I hate when people call me an activist. And not because I have any disdain for activism. I respect it so greatly that calling me that is disrespectful to them.

It's like, yeah, I mean, I'm able to come on platforms, say what I think, try to speak to a condition, speak for people who won't get the microphone that I'll get. But they out there putting it on the line in a much different way. I mean, I put a little bit on the line and I pick my spots, but they are putting it on the line. But when you talk to activists, despite the fact that they're often branded as like angry and dissident, and they might be those things. But these are some of the most optimistic people you can ever run across. Optimism in the sense that they wouldn't do what they do if they didn't actually believe change was possible.

This is so funny. Why you said that? Because I ask them all the time. I'll be on the phone because I talk to a lot. I'd be like, you really feel like you can solve racism. Right, like, are you crazy? Like, Van, it's not about solving racism, Van, okay? It's about making these systemic changes that, like, blunt the impact of it on our lives.

And we can do it. It will happen if you say this on your podcast. But you're right. It's actually a fantastic observation. They believe. They believe. And sometimes it's like when you talk to a politician, or at least a politician that is, You know, they're all a little bit full of shit.

I mean, it's just kind of what comes with the job. But when you talk to a politician who you feel like might be in it for the right reasons and they speak about the system, I'm like, what system are they actually talking about? They actually believe it works. They believe it's broken. They believe that it should be amended in certain ways, but they actually believe it. You know, like, I mean, in talking, the few times I've been able to talk to Obama and even Kamala, Harris. It's like, oh, they actually, yeah, that was a name drop and I won't pick it up.

No, but they literally believe in the system. I'm like, I don't know why you do, but I guess I admire that you do. I admire it. I mean, I do. I mean, otherwise, if we didn't have people like this who actually believe that you could solve racism and that misogyny one day maybe won't exist or it'll get to a point where it's like, you know, it won't be completely subject. people. We'll get to some workable place, whatever that is. It's really pretty inspiring. And then it makes me reflect about, I was like, man, I'm just full of shit because I don't believe in any of this. Like, I believe to a degree, but I'm just, I'm just pessimistic and grumpy and old. And this is what it is. I think that's a lot of us. Yeah, like, we want to believe, right?

When we have people on here that are activists or politicians, it's always a question, like, how do you still have hope? How do you keep going? Like, how do you feel? Like, how do you And they say it and I'm just like, that's beautiful. And I want to. I have a desire to, but I'm not there. And I think there are a lot of us that exist. At least we want to, right? Like, you're not full pessimists.

You're not fully gone. Okay, not fully gone. You're not fully gone. Well, I don't tell you this. I don't believe in their system. I believe in a system that could work. I believe in a version of reality that could work. I think them investing, a lot of the politicians,

I think them investing so much sweat equity into this system is a lot of times to preserve their place in it. Right. Yeah. Yeah, well, that's the part you balance. It's like, that's what I said. They're all a little bit full of shit. It's like you're trying to figure out like what part of them is not full of shit.

I mean, we're all full of shit in different ways. It's just a matter. Yeah, it's just a matter. We're all compromised. We're all full of shit in some ways. There are ways in which we want to be comfortable as opposed to like upsetting and disrupting. It is something I've accepted. But.

What ways are you foolish? shit. Oh, what ways am I full of shit? I like nice shit. I mean, I'm just not going to hold you up. And when I say nice shit, I don't mean like super materialistic things. Like I'm not Gucci down to the socks. But, you know, I like, I like blowing money on like big fucking vacation. Tell your story. What you do. On the podcast, tell them what you saw. I saw it. I saw it. I saw this in action. Like I was, you remember this. I was on a plane. I was headed to New York to do CNN. And I see like, this is Delta 1 guys

this is nice okay because I know I see any of the roles yeah yeah we both know and so

I see this beautiful black couple cheersing with champagne before the fight before the fight takes off I look over

I'm like oh man look at them I'm like shit is that Jamel what and it was like jeez

I'm like yo you're like oh we're going somewhere we're going somewhere We're going somewhere and y'all sitting there and y'all living your best life. There are people that know how to do first class.

Like you pass by them, they got the blanket out. Their shit is folded the whole night. They was on a trip. Loving black fabulous relationship people. Like a cheers. It's one thing to be like, we're going on vacation. But this was a, ah, ding people walking by trying to get their backs together. Get out of my way.

But you know what's great about that is it's not just what you see on Instagram. Like I loved when he told me that's. story because I was like, it's real life. Nobody was, you weren't doing it for anybody but the two of you. That's why I love to watch, like, y'all on social media. You're always traveling. You're surprising each other. Like, for someone like me, I'm like, that's a hopeful thing.

Like a lot of my girlfriends, I'm not going to get into this part because I want to ask you something else. We'll get into that later. Maybe I'll ask you off mic. I'm sure everybody's always like, you got a friend. You can you set me up? I mean, you know, it's funny you say that, though, because I've made this observation to my husband when we,

I think we were talking about when we got married and looking at our bridal parties. And all of his homeboys are like married are in very serious relationships. A lot of my girls are not. You know, they want to be. Or a few of them have come out of marriages or whatever. But like I have some dope-ass super single girlfriends.

And so I'm just, you know, and I know them well enough. Like, you know the friends you got to be like, I know why she's single. Yes. Right? I don't really have. There's maybe a couple, but generally speaking, no.

Like these are all sane, functioning, good black women who deserve love. And so getting back to my first class, Chearsing, is that one of the ways, I wouldn't necessarily call it full of shit, but I think that people think that when you're outspoken or you talk about racial conditions, misogyny, all these isms and things that we talk about, that you don't like to, you know, do shit like, you know, fly first class. or go to, we just spend a month in Africa and we're in Mauritius and Zanzibar and all. Like, I like, travel is my vice, and that's like my love language.

So like, I will blow it all on travel if I could, you know? So you gotta have something, right? And then in terms of compromising, it's like I still, as much as gross capitalism is, I see how it destroys our society, the reality is I gotta live in it and I gotta get this money. And so I have my limits.

Like one question me and Kerry talked about before is like, what would we do if the Saudis came calling? And that's a hard question to, you know, theoretically I know what I would do, I think, but I'm also not just speaking and representing myself. You know, I got a whole husband, you know what I'm saying? Because I'm sure the right price, you know, you got these WMBA players that are working on this secret basketball league.

but if they came and said, like, hey, we'd love for you to do sidelines and we'd love for you to do in studio. And it's a Saudi Back League. And they dropping like seven figures on you, the hell am I supposed to do? So I hope I'm confronted with that problem, but at the same time I don't. No, I wouldn't want to be confronted.

But yeah, and then we work in corporate media. Like, I mean, it's just we're going to be compromised at some point. We can't, it's impossible in this country to live a compromise-free, life. It just is. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's just some shit I ain't going to do. I feel you. Yeah. Oh, we know.

We know. I know you don't consider yourself an activist and I understand that, but we always talk about on this podcast that we all have different roles. So, like, you mentioned the word being a disruptor and stuff. I feel like in the roles that you play, there is a level of that, right? Because a person whose boots on the ground might not be have the platform that you have in order to disrupt or, like, use your voice or whatever it may be. I'm curious though, especially like with everything going on now, how does this chapter feel different for you than earlier years of your career?

You know. That's a great question. It's something that me and some of my friend group that we talk about often, I got to be honest at this age and like next year it would be my 30th year in journalism, which feels crazy to say. I did not expect in some ways to be grinding this hard. and I know why I'm grinding and to some degree the grind never stops but media has changed so much that people like me who are unwilling to compromise about certain things it's a tough landscape very tough like the last three years have been really really difficult and so just in terms of finding your footing and being aligned with people who when you say things that are going to make people

uncomfortable and disrupt that they can handle the blowback. It's just not a lot of people out there that can do that. And so that puts me sometimes in an awkward position because I often, despite people will say like, oh, we love working with you or we love this, we love this about you, love your authenticity. But I ain't trying to fuck my shit up working with you. So it's like that's the part. I'm not used to being the radioactive element.

And so sometimes I feel like the radioactive element. I don't mind it, but at the same time, it gets a little, it wears on you. It wears on you. And so the good thing is that because I know Tiffany, because I know Joy, and we're friends and some other folks in this game, they're going through sort of the same thing. It's like, I'm not one meant to be silent on shit. And if you can't rock the way that I rock, it's going to be hard. And, but sometimes I go through points where that climb and that those obstacles are harder

than what I thought they would be at this stage in my career. Yeah. You know, that's interesting. It's interesting because I think people would be surprised by the fact that you don't like it. You seem to love a good fight. You seem to love to stand in challenge of what you feel. like is wrong. And I know people that that's their whole deal. Right. Their whole deal is to incite, engage, and let's get it up. That's when they're at

their best. Is that not you? So I do what's necessary. And I'm, I know you, you like me, we are into sort of the comic world and superheroes and that kind of stuff. It's the reason why so many superheroes are conflicted in journalists. And I'm not saying that I'm a superhero. That's not what I'm saying, but I understand the conflict of doing what's required. And I'm no better than anybody else. I'm used to living and have existed in this space for a while. I mean, particularly since all the Trump stuff, it seems like whether I wanted to go there or not or be in that space, I was going to be put there regardless. So I embrace some of it. And I also, there have been too many occasions where people have come up to me and say, I couldn't have said it, but I'm glad you did.

I thank you for saying something that I couldn't. And so if I have to take some bullets, if I got to take some strays, I'll take them. But it does come at a price. And I don't think that's particularly unique to me. I'm sure, I don't want to speak for them, but I'm sure if you ask Tiffany or Angela Rye or any of them, they will tell you the same thing that it comes with a price. Like, we may look comfortable doing it, but we have a lot of conversations behind the scenes. about what the price of this actually is. Do you ever think about what your life would be like

if you had never sent that tweet? I've thought about it. And people may be surprised to hear this, but I think I'd be unhappy. In fact, I know I would be. Because there's a couple things. Maybe, I'm sure that people don't know. Before I sent that tweet, I was unhappy at ESP.

Just can't let you guys know. I don't know what the fuck that is. But just so you guys know, Jamel very famously went toe to toe to toe with the administration and really a large portion of the country when she made what I believe to be the correct and apt observation that the president is a white supremacy. I know I hate that it aged so well. You know what I mean? It's one of those things I wish I'd have been dead wrong about like, oh, it turns out he wasn't. He was just misunderstood. Just a little early.

But I think I would have been unhamed. happy because I was already unhappy at ESPN before that tweet got sent. Can you say why? Oh, yeah. I mean, they were moving into a different space from a management standpoint, company philosophy standpoint. ESPN had never been disliked. I mean, granted, when you say disliked, it's almost like you've got to put it in air quotes because they're, you know, they air live games.

People love sports. people love some of their their personal competition back then. Yeah, like they nothing, nothing. But they, ESPN will always see itself as the little engine that could as like

because they, they were sort of mavericks in the game of what sports broadcasting was. And then they became the cool kids, the popular kids. And when that whole narrative started that they were too liberal, too political, which

by no coincidence, coincided with the fact that you saw me and Dan Lebertard and Beaumani Jones and Sarah Spain. So suddenly you were saying black people, women have become the faces of the company. And there were critics and people outside the company, a lot of conservatives who did not like that. So ironically, one of the things that kind of started that conversation was when they gave Caitlin Jenner, of all people, the Arthur Ash Award. And they lost their mind. and now she wanted a people, which is funny because, like, you know,

it's because at the time she was speaking, you know, very passionately about the suicide rates among trans kids, like things that are important issues, and that's why they gave her an award. And so after that, it's like ESP could not get out of this crosshairs of being considered too political and too liberal and too woke, a word I've come to hate. And because of that, they were trying to overcorrect. So when I was unhappy, it was like Mike and I are doing SportsCenter, and we get some new bosses that take over our show. And suddenly they have orchestrated this entire plan, it seemed, to remind people or at least try to take the blackness out of the show.

Like, we're there. You can't really remove it unless you remove us. So they did little shit. like when you know when sports center you know you hear the dun-a-dun it is coming on so we had an intro that jazzy jeff did for us and that was very kind of him to do bang an intro it was awesome and they took out the intro and instead of hearing jazzy jeff and seeing us um and they had a voice of god that replaced us like replace you hearing us as soon as you turn on the sports center And so it'd be like, coming up next

and it's like some random person because it's like they wanted to surprise white people that two black people were hosting the show. You turn on at six and they're like, oh snap, it's two Negroes. Like, yeah, you can't eliminate us. So they were doing things to basically try to de-blackify the show.

And what I wasn't going to do is go through an existence. And at that point, I was one year into a four-year deal. I was only contractually obligated to do SportsCenter. I was not about to spend the next three years every day fighting for my blackness

wasn't going to happen. So I wanted off Sports Center. I did not send the tweet because I know how conspiracy years. I was about to say I didn't do that. People are going to be like you want it out so you sit the tweet. So you didn't do that. No. No, I did not do that. It was like I didn't even think it was going to be a big deal. Like I honestly didn't. And so

but what it did do is that it created the avenue for me to leave Sports Center and thus to leave ESPN. So you ask about regretting the tweet. I don't because I got to one move out of Bristol, which is rough. You've been up there, you know how it is.

No disrespect, Connecticut. But maybe a little disrespect. So getting to leave Connecticut. And finally, getting to do things that were things that I had put off and said, well, after my contract is up or after I'm done with the ESPN, it gave me a sense of urgency. And then on a personal level, it's like at that point, me and my husband, we were just dating then.

And we were long distance. Like he was living in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. I was living in Connecticut. We're trying to figure out at what point are we going to be in the same city. So I'm able to leave ESPN. We moved to Los Angeles. We get engaged two months later. And here I am now happily married after, what will be year seven this year.

So, yes. I love that. Yeah, I think if it wasn't that tweet, there would have been something else, right? Because you've already said on this. on this podcast that you couldn't help but be yourself. And so it would have been something, especially with the state of the country. When it comes to sports and the conversations and you and Carrie have your podcast and you do it in so many other ways, social media, stuff like this, what topic in sports do you think that we're talking too much about and we need to let it go? And what topic do you think needs more attention?

Well, I would say maybe it's more of a pet peeve conversation. It's funny because you mentioned the stuff that I'm doing with Vice in terms of this gambling docu-series that they have going, is that the idea that sports being fixed is super annoying. It's very annoying. And I'm not saying that there have not been gambling scandals. We know that they have. And especially now where gambling has become completely normalized, we're fixated on these games and these results and whether or not something is fixed and not paying enough attention to, as with the rest of the society,

as we should with the rest of the society, but the politics in sports. You know, like right now there's a contract or labor strife between the WNBA and the players. And I'm consistently frustrated by the fact that fans always sat with owners, always side with owners. And I get it. They want to see the games.

They want to be entertained and this and that. But they don't understand how that relates to, the way we glaze rich people in this country and billionaires. And we're so loyal to order as opposed to justice, you know. And I'm looking at these women and seeing how people are responding as if they have no right to fight for what they're worth. And some of it is a lot of misogyny and the fact that they're just like, just be happy to somebody let you bounce this basketball, which is kind of a general thing that people have to say about athletes overall whenever they accept. express any sense of outrage or they advocate for themselves in any way. But I just wish people

would just draw more connective tissue to how we think about sports and what shows up there versus how we should think about other things. So when it comes to that or just in general, who do you think has the power when it comes to sports? Is it the league? Is it the players? Is it the fans? Is it the sponsors? The players and the fans do. The people do. And it's it's kind of heartbreaking because, you know, I just came from Super Bowl. So are you there? Obviously, Rachel. And what is very clear is that not only do athletes not understand their power,

they have no interest in tapping into it. Like, when you think about all the things that are going on in this country, who's speaking and who's silent, it says a lot. And at this point, I don't know, you know, I was able to do a panel with L.A. Ali, and next year is the 60th anniversary of the Cleveland Summit where, you know, Jim Brown and Kareem and Bill Russell and all the athletes got together to figure out how they were going to support Muhammad Ali when he decided that he didn't want to go into the Army for the Vietnam War. I just think about that moment, we will literally never see that again.

Like, never will see that again. There's not anything I could think of that could happen in this country that would cause, I know people will look at 2020, but even that, as great as it was to finally see them at least understand what their power could be, they could have went so much harder. And I know that's easy to say sitting here, right? But they actually have the power to change people's wealth status. And when you have that kind of power, it's something that you should tap into. And instead, what happens is that they get sanitized.

by deals and brands and money and everybody's trying to create generational wealth, which is very, very important. But the problem is that the system that you claim you want to change, you just wind up becoming an extension of it, which is why I say we're all full of shit in some way. Which is what I was going to go back to, those guys. And to me, this is, we talked about this a little bit.

This is a frustrating part of it. I remember back in the day on Real Sports, what a big story it was. when I'm not about to bring up a name that y'all not gonna like to hear okay Kellen Winsler's second okay bad person bad guy so to say that when he was being recruited

his dad another Hall of Fame tight end was like my son will only play for a black coach and this was such a fucking huge deal you have Hall of Fame tight end Kellyn Winslow Sr. talking about his hyper elite blue chip athlete's son and saying we're going to go someplace that there's a black coach.

Now this did not end up happening. He ended up going to Miami. I guess the compromise was Miami had a black receivers coach or whatever. But this was on HBO Real Sports and stuff like that. And we were just like looking at that situation and going, this is starting a conversation that we all know that we need to have. We have a lily white coaching landscape, particularly at the Power Five school. level, the SEC, the Big Ten, the ACC.

And Ken LeWis-O-Signor is going, the athlete can actually change this. The athlete can say, hey, I'm going to go somewhere where a black guy's going to coach. And you can change the way the school hires. You can change the way the school goes about its business. But aren't those athletes just making decisions that you were talking about earlier, that you don't know what would happen if you had to? Aren't they choosing? Isn't Saudi Arabia for them?

the NFL or the NBA and they're forced with some of them, not all of them, because some of these guys are working pro athletes. Aren't they choice? Aren't they making decisions like, I'm making a hundred million dollar decision about whether or not I'm going to get along rather than, you know, some of the other, like,

aren't they in the same position we talked about earlier? They are, but here's the difference is that, you know, I'm sure this may be the case for you guys. It's like, as I made more money and got more money, more leverage, I was able to demand and ask for more things. Yeah.

And the thing is with them, it never stops in terms of the lack of unrealized power. And that's because they're caught up in a system. You know, I think it was Bill Roten, the great black journalist who wrote 40 million dollars slaves. He talks about the conveyor belt. If you constantly keep athletes in these bubbles of materialism, of this kind of fake hyper-consumerism, That's all they think about. And to your point, we just said what in the NFL was a record 10, you know, head coaching jobs open.

Nobody black got hired. You ain't heard one of them say anything about this. Not one. I haven't. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. You ain't heard nobody. Now, who I would love to hear from are not just anybody. But this is when if you're Lamar Jackson, and I'm not picking.

on him. I don't want people to say that way. But imagine if Lamar Jackson had told the Ravens said. I'm only playing for a bad at coach. So y'all decide what y'all want to do. And not that, because you know, you're going to hear the usual people

like, ain't you about married? Nah, da-da-da-da. I'm like, okay, well, you're just telling me the white guys are just all smarter? They just all are better coaches? Like, that can't be the case. All right. It's clearly something with the system that's not right. Though nepotism seems to be the number one thing, right? It's like everybody in the NFL is like related.

They just did this feature. I don't remember which of the pregame shows it was on about the Harbaughs. You have brothers. Then they got like a nephew. They got like, you know what I'm saying? Like the coach, you're a cowboys. Who's his dad? Marty Shott andheimer.

Okay. And I know you can't hope who, you know, what family you come from. But the NFL is like literally ripe with like coaches, kids. And if you're black and outside of those family bubbles, especially for the names like a Shannon. Because you got Kyle Shanahan coaching the 49ers. You're not going to be able to overcome that. I don't give a damn how bright and talented you are.

It's like family connection is huge in the NFL. So I say all that to say is the fact that the players haven't said anything about this. And it shouldn't have taken 0 for 10 to do this. It's telling to me. And some of the issue, especially with football, is that it's a conformity sport. and one band, one sound, very military-like thinking. And so the idea of disruption is foreign. You know, it is not something that's embraced.

And as I've often said about Colin Kaepardick is that his biggest threat was the fact that he, his presence in the locker room was a threat to ownership because players with him in the locker room are going to start asking questions that they don't want to answer. and that forced them into a level of demand and accountability that they don't want to be in. And that's dangerous in a sport of conformity. Hence why, you know, if you hit a woman, you're welcome back. Right. That's correct.

They feel like, oh, we can act like they don't do that anymore. But they can't act like Colin Kaepernick isn't calling an entire law enforcement system racist. In your opinion, how did the NFL win the Colin Kaepernick era? Because the players outside of pockets. because the players didn't stand up and say this is unacceptable. Whether you believed in what he was saying or not. The fact is you watched a, you know, ownership, destroy somebody's career because they said police brutality is wrong.

I mean, they didn't say shit, right? You know, you had some, of course, you had, you know, Malcolm Jenkins and this and that. That old lock arm shit, that don't impress me. Jerry Jones told you, Jerry Jones, who has employed. Cowboys owner. Cowboys owner, Jerry Jones, you know, noted viewer of segregation. No Super Bowl since 96. That did that Jerry.

Tupac was on the charts. All right. All right. Let's stick to the topic at hand. Tupac. That Jerry Jones. He said that if any of his players know, he was going to cut him. The same one who had no problem giving Greg Hardy a job.

Who choked a woman in a bathtub. What? So he told you this. And your response was, I mean, so once the owners knew that y'all weren't going to staying together, they were like, got them. So we had Howard Bryant on a couple of episodes ago. Very brilliant Howard Bryant. Yes, very much. And like you mentioned Lamar, and it just immediately made me think, we have more black quarterbacks than ever.

So how powerful would it have been if just the black quarterbacks came together and said something? Because they have, I mean, the representation. They have the leverage. They have the power. They have the leverage. But so building on what you just said, conversation we had with Howard Bryant, should we just move away from even expecting anything

when it comes to us stick to football, black football players? You know, that's where it gets tough because on one end, there's an inherent unfair and unfairness, not just with football players, but with anybody black. It's like, we didn't create this shit. We didn't create white supremacy. We didn't create this hierarchy of race.

But yet, everybody, is like, so when y'all gonna solve it? Like, my fucking way they create it, okay? So it shouldn't technically be on us to solve. And yet, it often is. And when it comes to athletes, and this is really the conversation I like to have

with fans in particular, is fans can't sit up there and demand that they be the ones that sacrifice everything while you do nothing. And what you could do, like for the NFL in particular, if you were that upset

about how they treat, at Cona Kaepernick or some of the other issues we've seen in the NFL, the race norming, the concussions, all these other things where the NFL has proven time and again they are full of shit.

You don't, nobody's holding a gun to your head telling you to watch football. You could literally stop watching it, but nobody wants to do that. So that's where we're full of shit. And so it's like you're asking them to make all the sacrifice.

Like, yeah, sacrifice your career and that generational wealth you're trying to build. I'm going to sit here and keep watching like what you know i'm gonna say two things on this this is an interesting conversation for me um two things the first is man football is football it is a game but it's like anything else in america meaning that you get it when you're so young that it becomes religion capitalism is religion right when my grandfather used to tell me about how much pride he felt that he

opened his store and he could provide and all of this and how you had to have money and all of this like all the capitalism and that that's a religion football is a religion i remember somebody telling me about the saints lSU and southern the same time i remember them telling me about jesus and so those things become memories with your dad the stadium you You drive, you know, you know you back in Baton Rouge, you drive down Nicholson Drive, you drive past Tiger Stadium. It just becomes this thing that it seems like for sometimes you can't live without. Like it takes a huge chunk out of your life if you don't have it. So some people feel like it is life-altering not to watch the sport.

Secondly, I'm just throwing that out there because like a lot of people are like, how can I not watch football? But secondly, I want to ask you this. Do the athletes agree with us? Do the football players, particularly, even agree? Like if you were to, do they see the problems that we are identifying? I think the thing that I was most interested in with the Colin Kaepernick situation was the education that could have come along with it. Not that these gentlemen don't know that racism exists.

But do, are they even on the side of racial justice? Would it be something that they were sacrificed for? Muhammad Ali was getting all types of information from some of the most brilliant minds in like social analysis. He was fucking talking to Malcolm X. You know what I mean? So, like, and the rest of those guys at that time, they're around in the time of King and they're getting all of this stuff. All the athletes even on our side. on the side of wanting to dismantle some of these things.

That's a great question because sometimes I don't know. I mean, to be honest, and that's just based off conversations. Certainly it's easier for them to see the racial imbalance and the injustice in the sport that they play. Like, they know that the NFL's never had a majority black owner. They know that they're, even as a player, there's a certain level of discrimination that they're going to face within the structure of football. that as a black quarterback, they'll be under different scrutiny, that, you know, there's just still a lot of those things they have to deal with being doubted, you know, at the coaching level, seeing how black coaches, they treat them like they're just motivational speakers and don't

actually aren't tactically proficient at the game. So they know all of that, for sure. The harder part is that think about how long they have been segregated from the society. they actually are living in, is that as soon as they exhibit this level of skill, they get treated differently. It starts by family. Then it's by community. Then it's at school. Then when they get to college, I don't know how, I assume it works this way pretty much at most of the power conferences, is that they put them in their own dorm, only around other athletes. They segregate them away from really being general participants in the student body. They tell them, or strongly suggest it's only certain classes they should take. They don't want them to be involved in things

that are too radical, like a black student organization or even a fraternity, okay, or sorority. Coaches are like, I don't know about all that, you know. So that indoctrination with them happens so early to the point that when they start having a sense of identity or thinking about identity, it's very late. Like, it was always so funny to me at Team Z. You wake up and you go, oh man,

he didn't got somebody, didn't give him the shit. You could tell. Like, I could tell when Kyrie Irvin was like, started looking around going, this shit don't make no sense. Like something ain't right.

I could tell when it happened to Cap. I started looking at Cap's Instagram. I was like, oh shit. And that's what I'm saying. But look how long that took that. Yeah. Even if you're not playing sports, some of us don't maybe get that sense of

identity early. I got it early because I'm from Detroit. We are black-ass city. I mean, most of my teachers growing up, I went to public school. They was all black. Like, the one thing I knew when I got to Michigan State was I'm black as fuck, right? I read Malcolm X. I read all these other things.

So I was firmly rooted. And those guys are not. I mean, they know they're black and they understand black experiences. But black revolution, hell no. They don't. And so Colin's a perfect example because all of a sudden it was like, oh shit. That Instagram, as you said, started to change. And unfortunately because of...

This was way before he took the knee, by the way. It was. It was way before he took the knee. And unfortunately, the way things work now, you know, I don't know, you know, I don't know who the black leader would be. Certainly, you know, and I know behind the scenes, there's a lot more conversations that take place, you know, that where they are some of them who want to are having those kinds of conversations. But most are not, especially because black leaders. is not centralized the way that it used to be. It's not coming through a church.

You know, there's not one necessarily, you know, Malcolm X or a Martin or whatever that could go around and say, hey, we need to get everybody together. To some degree, I think they kind of looked at Obama that way. So when you hear about how Obama in 2020, when they were, you know, after Jacob Blake and they decided, like, do we even want to play, take it for how you want to, you know, absorb it. Obama was the one that talked about. boycotting.

That's horse shit, man. You can take it how you want to take it. That's what I'm talking about. That's horseshit. That's, you see? I mean, I kind of have to agree with man. It's like, I don't. I'm about to get pissed off.

That's horses shit, man. And that's the type of shit that I'm fucking talking. Okay, you know what? I didn't stop you. You know, that's that. I just, you know, guys, you know, how many fucking times do we have to get the rigmarole? I don't like it.

I don't like it. That is an opportunity to say, guess what? We can stop the show. Yes. We can stop. There's no show. Right. No show.

You know, again, easy for me to say. I wrote this for the Atlantic at the time about how America didn't deserve black athletes. And during that, especially in that particular time. And this is not, you know, because I know how we as a community feel about Obama. And certainly I have respect for what he's done and all the platitudes. people, but I think they shouldn't have listened to him. And I understand he's coming from a different model. Obama's a centrist. Obama is very much work inside the system. Let's see how we can get it done from the inside. And trust me, I know from the political insiders that I know that getting shit

done is very hard to do from the inside and you can't always take a sledgehammer. Sometimes it requires a delicate touch. But that was a moment and a missed opportunity that they should have. just not played. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you. You were looking over here, like it was expecting me to say something.

I feel like I tapped into something here. I agree with you. But it's interesting because I also think, as we talked about, when we talk about Colin Kaepernick, we talk about what the NFL did to kind of try to put a band-aid on it and move on, I think that with athletes or, you know,

whoever may be black within the system and when it comes to the conflict is, they think that if they do just have these isolated events or they do certain things within the community, that that is enough instead of looking at the systemic issue of it all, which that would have been an opportunity to do that. I'm going to switch to the show,

the docu-series that you're on. But still talk about isolated incidents versus systemic issues. So out of bounds, the docket series, the sports betting boom on Vice TV. I guess my question is, because I don't know a whole lot about gambling and betting, but we do have these isolated incidents,

but we see, you know, I think we were just a Super Bowl, you see the sponsorships, you see it everywhere. Are we too far gone, or are these just isolated incidents, and it's not a systemic issue? Oh, no, we are gone. Like, it is done. I mean, what is, I made this comparison previously. Gambling is basically the new tobacco.

Like, it has been normalized to the point, where these gambling scandals that you're seeing, they're going to be just a part of the fabric of sports, where we just, oh, such and such is point-shave and a night. On to the next, you know, and it's concerning the impact on young people. Really it is, because you're talking about 18-year-olds who really are broke and shouldn't be gambling anyway. Like, now that it's available through your phones,

it's like that's a way of life for them. And that whole fourth wall has been dropped. You know, you have the leagues in business with it. You have networks in business with it. They're creating content. And because of that, I think people, we won't really know the full extent of the danger to like 10 years from now when it's a bunch of Netflix documentaries about how it ruined people's lives and especially kind of young men.

And if you're the NFL or the NBA or any of these other leagues that have gotten in bed with it, overall, like, big, big, big, 80,000-foot-view picture here, young people are less interested in sports. That's the problem all the leagues are facing. Most, you know, like, Van, you're talking about, you know, growing up and watching LSU. I grew up, you know, watching Detroit sports and the Pistons and the Tigers and football and that kind of thing. Young people don't want to sit in front of a screen for three hours. They just don't. And because of the way they have been now taught to consume.

content, they had to think of a way to keep these young people hooked on sports knowing that the events themselves were not fully doing the trick. So what does is gambling. Gambling does it. And so it has become kind of a necessity, income stream as well. Because listen, these sports rights fees aren't going down. They're only going up. And so now leagues are forced to have five, six, seven streams of income.

And so all these things that sports fans are noticing, but to your point, so emotionally addicted to that they can't just say, hey, guys, I'm sick of paying for 10 different streaming services just to see a full slate of games. This is bullshit. Instead of being like, fuck these games, they're just going to keep paying. And so as much as I hear sports fans complaining about the streaming services and the gambling and all this, it's like, y'all ain't going to stop watching. You're hooked on it. They already know. It's a part of your life. It's like, okay, there it is.

And so with gambling, it's going to be very similar. It's like we're going to see it totally destroy people's lives. And gambling is a different kind of addiction, too. You know, people... You chase it. Yeah, you chase it. And not only that, people have a certain respect for, like, drug addiction or, like, alcohol addiction, even sex addiction. Even that, but even that faces the whole life.

Who's addicted to say? You know what I'm saying? With gambling, it's like, who's addicted to gambling? Like, there is this inherent misunderstanding that addiction is addiction, whether it be, you know, the craps table betting app or it's all dopamine. That's all it is.

And so it's so quiet in the sense that people don't really own when they have a gambling addiction that people don't understand it. And so it's just now at a point where I think it's too late. And I just hope

I've seen, you know, conversations among the leagues about maybe putting a limit on these parlays and individuals, player performance so that the players themselves don't gamble. That's what I mean too about like how does that, how do you now start to start thinking it that way? Like remember when gambling for an athlete, that used to be the career killer.

You were done. You were done. And now it's just like, not that you can necessarily recover, but it's not such a career killer that it is serving as a warning signal for other athletes. Like, they will willingly go and literally gamble it all the way. Plus, gambling in sports behind the scenes, the way people play cards, all that shit. Like, it's most sports, you know, the thing they don't really talk about is, like, among these teams, and I know of some situations on some teams where people have come to blows,

where it has fractured relationships, they've had to trade folks all over unpaid gambling debt. So, like, that shit goes on behind the scenes anyway. You know, last thing I'll say about this before I asked. ask you a couple of straight political questions to get you some trouble. Yeah. So two things happen. One is the thing that you talked about earlier to me. The sort of soft acceptance that these games aren't on the up and up, to me, is a huge

cultural factor in the way people accept gambling. There's like jokes about Adam Silver made the call. Yeah. Or there's jokes about Scott Foster's riffing this game. We go into game seven. there's there's almost this soft subconscious acceptance of this isn't the paramount of competition that we thought that it was like this pure thing right so when people see this stuff now it's not like pete rose in in the mid 80s to where the and the fans themselves are outraged at it there's almost been this like acceptance that there's something else that exists so when they see this stuff now it's not like this athlete is now a pariah they're They almost kind of know. It's not at the front of their mind,

but it's in the back of their mind. A lot of that stuff comes, like, a lot of the stuff that we know from the stuff that... I'm talking about, like, stories that we did or didn't do about, like, sending gang members to go get the gamble. Oh, yeah. But you know what I mean?

Like, I'm like, like, the guys that you pay protection to, now these guys are going across town, to your teammates crib, to his girl's crib, to get money and stuff like that. Like, really serious. shit, like really, really bad. So I think that now, when you hear the name, I don't want to throw these brothers' names out there,

but the guys that have gotten in trouble, the allegations against Terry Rozier or Jonte Porter, it used to be that they would make sure that you never played any, you'd be like, shoeless Joe fucking Jackson. And they would be like, oh, the guy, at the end of eight-man-out, he was the best ever. Now he's playing, you know what I'm saying? Like, they get you the fuck out of the sport.

It's just, it's different now. Yeah, I mean, I think what you said is, is true is that we've become so desensitized to it and I think now although fans take it very seriously because they have money on the line

clearly and following this there's a part of them that is just like oh I'm that's treating everything a little bit like WWE flippantly they kind of get that there's some other part of the production that doesn't involve straight competition you know what I only have time for one of these questions so I'm going to give you your choice

Okay. All right. Why don't I feel like this is about to be some bullshit. Go ahead. Okay. You know your friend. So I can ask you about Trump, Dion, or Stephen A. Smith. Choose.

I'll leave it up to you. No, no. I'm going to let you choose. Okay. All right. Let's do. You know what? Because I'm rarely asked about him.

It's Dion. Okay. I'm not asked about Dion. Dion. Dion. Okay. I got into a back and forth with people on Twitter. And I said,

something and then the people and then some of the bots that get at me said hey Dion is a Trump supporter all right so don't even think that Dion should say this or do this Dion loves Trump I might have been saying something about Trump getting involved this should do or something like that right then they showed me this screenshot of Dion Sanders following the entire Trump family what yeah that's a screen time that they're like this is proof okay that Dion is a Trump supporter and he followed everyone that he was following. You looked. They say he was following Donald, Donald Jr., Nicholas Trump,

Jabari Trump, Cedric Trump. Like, everybody, he was following them all. All right. But then there are also people that were like, he follows all the Obamas and all that stuff like that. Right. Dion Sanders, Shador Sanders, the issue of how Shadour is being treated, the issue of how he fell to the fifth round, the issue of how he is either being given a chance to succeed or not being given a chance to succeed

is an issue that black people have taken very personally. Is it fair for us to even wonder whether or not a figure like Dion Sanders is a Trump supporter? It is fair because, you know, and I think this is generally the problem we have when we find out, you know, like when Snoop performed at his inauguration, or Nellie or whatever is that you have been able to build your wealth because of the support,

unconditional, everlasting support from black people. And here you are playing footsie with somebody who at every turn is trying to destroy us. And so, yeah, we should feel that kind of way, some kind of way because you've seen it on the, y'all seen it on the Internet. And even when you're face-to-face with people, they fight for Chador like that's their damn son. Boy. Like you.

And I don't look. I want Chador to do well. But God damn it if we could get as on cold and on task about like about minimum wage. We need Shadour. Shout out to Josina Anderson. She is in for the fight, man. I was like I'm, I fuck with it. We are, we want Shador Sanders to succeed.

Like he's on our watch. It's happening. It's happening. If we have to start our own fucking league. If we have to start our own league for Shadour, and I think and I hope he will be successful. But man, we are dedicated to that. We are all in.

It is at the point that generally, even now I'm a little nervous talking about him because I'm not being dead ass, though. I'm being dead serious because, like, there are certain, you know, athletes and black figures over the course of, you know, my time in media where I was like, I ain't saying shit else about him.

Nothing. Because y'all ain't going to be, you know, outside my house. Like, all right. So with Dion, I mean, considering the level of support and love like from, you know, his whole career, obviously. But especially when him going to Jackson State and in Colorado, like, he had Colorado out there like there. Like, we was in. Well, you know what I'm saying? And so if you found out that he's sitting up there that is a Trump supporter, I think, because some black people, of course, you go, that don't say like, well, we have.

a right to think how we want to think. Like, now you really just being lame, right? But I mean, I want to use the word oh, but given the level of outside support for him and Shadour, y'all, they couldn't. Now, do I suspect that he is? I don't know that he's full on. I don't, I don't, I really honestly don't.

I don't know. Not hanging, I'm not saying anything. I guess because when I ask the question, a lot of people, they get upset. And I'm like, but isn't it fair if there's cultural support based on blackness and if there's a movement that is associated with anti-blackness, isn't it fair to just ask the question about whether or not you support this movement? Well, you should because then the question becomes, what is it that you stand for? Right. That's like, that's it.

And what is it that you're supporting within this? Because given everything we know about this administration, it's like, what would that be? You know, that would be in line with who we think you are. Yeah. And so, so yeah, I mean, I think people have the right to. My suspicion is that I don't know that he's a supporter in the sense of did he vote for Donald Trump, right? But I think it's very clear than him and Trump are friendly. I mean, and Trump, the way he feels about Shadur.

Right. That says at all. It's very obvious. And that shouldn't be surprising, given how their level of fame. It's like famous people just know each other. It just goes back a long time. Yeah, it goes back a long time. And there was once a point where Trump was like pretty embraced by black folks,

black celebrities, I would say. So it would not be surprising if they were friendly. Wow. Well, look, by the way, just questions, guys. You get mad. We support Shador Sanders. I've always supported. Yes, please, good Lord.

Don't accuse me. I support it. It's a civil rights issue of our time. I've always said that. Anything to say about Janus before, really? They just put that headline in there. Janice and Kalshi, what do you think about that? Oh, man.

Bad look. Rare misstep, I think, you know, for Janus. It just felt out of place. It felt kind of beneath him, you know, to do something like that. Like, why? You know, and especially as he's in this process of figuring out, like, what he wants to do or where he wants to spend the next iteration of his career. It feels like Janus, Janus wants to.

to, he wants to tell the bucks they're no longer together, but he doesn't know how. It's like he, you know, we've been to those kind of breakups before where it's like, I want to, I want to do something to where they break up with me. Or like, you know, put it on them to do. Damn, you're toxic. Exactly. Instead of just being, who me?

Yeah. I'm not toxic. I didn't think that you were like that. I thought that Jamel Hill would be the person that just sit them down and be like, listen, I no longer can deal with you. But you're out there doing the same shit trying to get you. You are, you talk about you. Don't you make that comparison.

You're toxic. I would think that if anybody could just give you a clean break, it would be Jamel Hill. Like, girl, look, I told him, but after I was done reading James Baldwin, I told him that we could no longer be together. But you're out here staying out late with your girl. So what? What are you going to say to me? I can do whatever I want to do.

What you don't want to do this no more? And the man is just like, yo, I just asked you to lock the door. I only did that once. For the record, for the record. The soft quit, the quiet quit. Yeah, the quiet quit like once. And it wasn't anybody that I was in a, like a relationship relationship. It was that great area of like we talking, we're not committed.

I did like a quiet quit. But everyone. That's better than ghosting. Exactly. I mean, everybody else has been like, hey, done. We can't do this number. Done. So yes.

So Janus, well, it was a rare misstep for Janus. And just reading the comments was funny. Like, yo, bro, you hacked? Like, what's you doing? It's just an odd, like, pairing. Yeah. You know, given what he's built his brand to be, it was just like, why would you do that?

You know, I guess it gave the feel of, you know, like if somebody, I don't know, somebody like, since he's in the news, like a bad bunny suddenly started playing bingo halls. It's like, you bad bunny. Like, why the hell would you be doing that? Like, why would you be doing this? You, yes.

Yes, it felt beneath him. That's the word. All right. Jamel Hill, thank you for joining us on higher learning. Flagrant and funny podcast with Carrie Champion out there. Support everything that Jamel and Carrie are doing. Out of bounds, the sports betting boom premiered January 29th. That's on Vice TV.

Also, re-spin way down in the hole with Jamel Hill and this brilliant cultural commentator named Van Laithen that's here on the radio. You know how many people still are like. They love it. They love it. Like, they want us to do another. series. Because you were ahead of the curve here. You were just like you were early on Trump.

You were early on stringer bell. I was not. I was not. I feel like, well, Bo Mani was the earliest. Like, Bomani Jones was the one. But let me tell you something now. If you also, look, this is on another podcast. Support the right time with Beaumonti Jones.

This is another network. Support the right time. If you want somebody that's getting today, I don't give a fuck point. Go support both. Bo Sikiyah. Bo just getting it. information and he's giving it back out. I like this. It's not

that he never did that. Right. But Bo is the one that when everybody else, he's a record scratching. He's like when everybody else is going one way, but there's really, really something to be said, but you have to say it. Bo is one of those guys. So he's the kind of guy that would have said Stringer

Bell was a fuck boy early on. Because we were sad when Stringer died. She has no idea what we're talking about. I know exactly who you're talking about. I was going to say I was into him just because it was injurious. I was blind by it. We were blind to buy it. Don't do me like that.

I know exactly what you're talking about. I was like, what an asshole. It was so funny. But he was like, you know, he's prepped to be the smart one. He was doing things the right way. Community College. Who I was going to. Shout out to everybody with Community College.

All right. Shout out to everyone. Y'all got to go listen to, y'all got to listen to some of the things that Jamel was saying all way down in the hole about Stringer. Stringer was in an econ class in the community college sitting behind in the seat behind behind it. They talked. He was like,

Just learning to new terms. You're talking about. I do that sometimes. Like I'll learn something. I do like I do that. I feel like shriegars to come back. You got you talk about you got an elastic product and an inelastic product. Get your dumb ass out of here.

Like telling all your boy. Jamel, so much fun. Thank you for joining this, man. I appreciate you. All right, guys. Take 10 caps off, but do not stop learning. I am Van Lathen Jr. We're hot on the trail of the truth here on higher learning.

We are. And I am Rachel Lundon. Bye guys. Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile, with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good

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