Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Black Lives Matter Co-founder Alicia Garza Addresses Recent Controversy

Episode Date: April 8, 2022

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay react to the questions surrounding BLM’s purchasing of a $6 million house (11:05), before co-founder Alicia Garza joins to discuss the accusations (32:18). Plus: Ketanji Brown Jackson is officially confirmed (1:12:04), then it’s Thought Warrior Mailbag time (1:32:43). Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Alicia Garza Producers: Trudy Joseph and Donnie Beacham Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Higher learning is on. It is I, Van Lathan, Jr. And it's me, Rachel Lynn Lindsay. Rachel Lynn Lindsay. You're back at home. Back at home.

I know. The spot changes all the time, but so is yours lately, too. Yeah, baby. I'm in Chicago, man. Let me tell you something about Chicago. Chicago. You feel in it.

I like Chicago, man. I can tell. I like, I like, I'm like a lot. I like Chicago, man. Chicago, I was feeling like, you know, sometimes I feel like a little bear in the big city, you know? Like I'm waiting around. I feel like, you know what I feel like? I feel like one of my best friends.

You know who one of my best friends of television is, of movies are? Who? Paddington, Bear. I love him. Oh, Pattington. Because I haven't really been out here that much. I haven't been to Chicago, maybe one time before. What's the weather like? It's cold.

Okay. Okay. It usually doesn't start warming up until May, end of May. That's so wild. You winter people, shout out to y'all. I could never live in a place where it's snowing in April. But I'm not, April, nigga. It's April.

It's April. April. O'Neill. It's April. Like I can't Like I can't leave Y'all I get it I get it

Oh it's February We fucked up Oh it's January We down We held around the furnace For heat April April?

It's tough We got to be in these streets It's tough We gotta be in these streets But there aren't people Who appreciate the weather more Than people who live in colder climates When it

As soon as it's above freezing They are so They are so appreciative of the outdoors and the weather. Unlike us out here in Cali, we take it for granted because we always have good weather. See, I don't,

by the way, not only do I not like that. I don't like the thought. You know what I mean? That's like... The thought of what? I don't like the idea of that. The idea of that irks me.

Like, there used to be a kid that used to come over and eat with us sometimes, right? And his, you know, sometimes it'd be like, whatever. And my parents would be like, ah, you know, little so-and-so, he appreciates what we're putting on the table right now because he don't get that every night. I'd be like, so what?

You want me to be hungry? So I can, you want me to be hungry so I can appreciate some suck attach? No, it's supposed to be succotash on the table. I'm sorry for him. And I'm thought, I know that it's, I'm glad that he's getting it. I'll bring him succotash every day. He can have half of mine. But I don't want him to, oh, like he's not.

Nah, it's the sun, the sun, S-U-N, walking Bowesman, with my tank top out, my belly flapping around flagrantly in the breeze. You know what I mean? My eight cups chilling. That's the life. That's the life. That's the life, which. Nobody's telling you, you got to feel sorry for the folks in Chicago

or in other winter climates that don't have that all the time. It's just, no, it's just pointing out the fact that, They see things in a way that we necessarily don't because we're not forced to. I know I used to live in Milwaukee for three years. I used to be one of them. Yeah. They can't see shit because their eyes are frozen cold. I used to walk to school in that weather.

Really? Negative, whatever, with the same wind that's blowing out from Lake Michigan through Chicago, blows up through Milwaukee. You just get used to it after a while. It is. It does keep you on your toes, though, because we have to. shooting, you know, and my ears are all, I started to get this pain in my ears that runs down the back of my neck from the cold.

Like, it starts to feel like the cold, I don't agree with it. I don't know that. I'm from Louisiana and I went straight to California, but I tell you what, despite the cold, I'm still loving Chicago. I love it. This is Al Capone City, baby. Okay. It's Alphonse Compone.

Alphonse Capone. Are you, are you a fan of Mafia? stuff? No. You don't care? No. I haven't seen, you can name the top three mafia movies and I probably haven't seen them. Okay, so these are the top three mafia movies. And let's see if you've seen them. The top three mafia movies of all time are the godfather, the godfather two and Goodfellas. How many of those have you seen? Okay, I was kind of bored through Goodfellas, so I didn't even finish it.

You were bored in Goodfellas. I honestly think I was distracted. You're a bad fellow. else. You're a bad fella is what you are. You are bored in Goodfellas? I must have been doing something else because I was, I was just like, I'm not getting this. And I don't want to, I can't remember how it ends. So that's why I don't think I finished it.

I did watch the Godfather. Right. I didn't watch. No, wait, everybody dies and good fellas. Everybody guys dies, right? No, no. Okay, wrong movie. They put everybody in jail.

Well, oh, okay, I definitely did finish it. Wow. I definitely finished it. Godfather. Yeah, I watched it But do you also know how But here's in my defense And people who aren't moviegoers

Oh no defense A lot of people Will get this Kalika can't fucking stand it But I think also I caught it too late There's something about being able To appreciate a movie

In the right time period Now it's too late for me The moment has passed It's not going to move me The same way it did you When you first saw it Yeah, I I don't know about that excuse, but, but the thing is they don't, you don't need, you don't like it.

So what? You don't like it. It's one of the greatest three films ever made. You don't like it. Who cares? What's the, um, the Miami one? Which one? Which one is Miami one?

What you're talking about? Like say hello to my little friend. Which one is that? That's Scarface. Okay. Is that not mafia? No, those are drug dealers, but it's organized crime. Okay.

It's organized crime because it's done in Montana. I've seen that. I remember that one. Hey, I only got two things in life. My boss, my word. Okay?

For no one. We'll back on those for no one. You want to go with it? That's cool. You want to make a move. I never like that piece of shit. I never trust that piece of shit. For all I know,

he had my friend Angel killed. But that's okay. He's gone. I'm here. Okay? Tony Montana, baby. Tony Montana. I feel like you.

practice that. I feel like you... Another quail- she'll love you tomorrow. Another quail-lou at Evie! I'm getting!

Stop. Elvie, I get him! We didn't ask for your favorite scenes from the movie. Thank you. Thank you. Yes, Scarface. That's the one I've seen.

People hate my expressions. They hate when I sing, which is... No, they don't. People like that. I'm going to be honest with you. I was a little bit shocked and appalled at

at the reaction to the Red Table Talk song, which I feel like is one of my best songs that I've ever made up. You know, this is the problem. You hit a bop with Melbag, and now you think that everything you do is a hit. That's the problem. Your one hit wonder is just Melbaugge song. It doesn't mean that you need to continue.

I don't remember it sounded like that. That's awful. Donnie, let's cut this part out. No. They don't want it either. I just want to sing. What does Donnie know? Donnie, like,

Donnie does, I'm one of the world's best impromptu songmakers. One of the world's best. I got sat today. I saw this, whatever. I saw this,

I saw this dog and he reminded me of Bowesman. Aw, yeah, that happens to me when I'm away from home too. I get it. Aw. I saw this dog. He was like, I was like,

Hey, man. I literally, this is how you know I'm into dad years, right? Number one, making up songs and trying to embarrass people. That total dad stuff. And then this woman is walking her dog down the street and the dog looks just like Bozeman. I go, hey, you want to see something? I got, let me show you something.

She goes, oh, okay. And I was showing her pictures of Bozeman on my phone. I do. I get it. And she's like, she looks just like. I'm like, yeah. I'm going to be honest with you. I swear to you.

I think this dog and Bozeman have the same parents. But isn't Bozeman a full breed? Yeah, Bozeman is a Burnado Dole. Okay, so is this not a full breed as well? But it's different. Let me tell you why. Bozeman is unique looking. This litter, the puppies that we get from these two parents,

they look the same. Bozeman is unique looking even for Burn a doodle. I'm telling you, their brother and sister. Did you ask her where she got him from? Nah, I didn't have time, but she was a white woman. So one more question, and I'm in jail. One more question, she calls the cops. Was the sun out?

Yeah, someone's out. You had a couple more questions in me. I probably like, on Prada Street, you had a couple more. She was very nice lady, but I was one false move away from, you know what I'm saying? I'm very afraid, Your Honor. He asked me, he asked me, he asked me, he asked me to, he, he took, he. He said he wanted to show me his dog. Is that some kind of rap saying?

It actually could be. Come here, girl. Let me show you my dog. Shit, nigger, Tupac. Let me show you my dog. And this is so unfair. That lady was lovely, lovely. Plus, Chicago ladies, they don't give a fuck.

Get the fuck out of the way. I'm walking here. Enough impressions. We have some very important stuff to talk about today. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Our friends over at Black Lives Matter up against it. The question is, are they our friends?

That's what... An article in New York MAG is speculated that they aren't. Let's be honest with you. Black Lives Matter were just called grifters. That's the insinuation that's shown. Campbell made against Black Lives Matter. We're going to talk about that, and we're going to hear from one of the people named in the article on the other side of this break. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters.

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and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at fanduil.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash herms. All right. Home purchased by Black Lives Matter Foundation scrutinized. An investigative report by the New York Magazine's Intelligentsia revealed that the Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation

purchased a $6,500 square foot home. Is that a lot of square feet? feet, 6,500? That's a lot? Yes, yes. What's a good square feet? It depends where you live. But in California, was this in Los Angeles?

Doesn't matter. No, I don't know. California, that's huge, right? People are just trying to get above 2000. Yeah, yeah, 2000. The year 2000, Y2K, the bug was going to take down the whole society. It didn't happen. And so it's got at least a half dozen bedrooms and bathrooms and a bungalow.

It's a bungalow. It's called the Social Justice. You guys, it's a mansion. So a mansion, whatever. The home is dubbed the campus and was purchased as the intelligence you reported in October 2020 with money that had been donated to the Black Lives Matter Global Network Fund. This article is far reaching in its insinuations and its allegations. It insinuates not only that this house was bought by funds with Black Lives Matters, which we know is probably where the funds came from, but that it is not being used. in the spirit in which it is supposed to be used.

Okay, this house is supposedly supposed to be used. It's a campus house for the Black Joy Creators Fellowship. The Fellowship provides recording resources and dedicated space for black creatives to launch content online and in real life focused on abolition, healing justice, urban agriculture, and food, justice, pop culture, activism, and politics, as all well as, provide. housing for people who might be unsafe in the places that they are. So this is supposed to be a place like a Black Lives Matter house where you can go, studio, put down your creative shit. But also, if you're a Black Lives Matter, I guess St. Louis, Black Lives Matter, Miami, and wherever you're saying is unsafe, this place is supposed to be a refuge for you.

Correct. Some of the allegations here, you read it, Rachel, what are some of the things that they are saying is wrong with the purpose or purchase of this home? Well, for one thing, they're saying that the funds were used from the, that were given after 2020 and George Floyd, they use those funds to pay for this. They're also saying that those, the house has not been reported. The house was purchased in October 2020. It was not reported to the IRS and has yet to be reported to the IRS.

BLM claims that they're doing it in May 2022. what is another thing? So the fellowship that you just mentioned, they're saying that it's supposed to be used towards the fellowship for people to create and cultivate content and such. Well, the fellowship was just announced in April of 2022.

The house was purchased in October 2020. So for about 17 months, they have not been using this house for the purpose that it was purchased for. So that's another allegation. They're also alleging that some of the former co-founders and other leaders in the organization are using the house to stay in. They're using it for YouTube videos that have nothing to do with advancing

the mission of BLM. And they're saying also that if they're using this for BLM and it's supposed to be for security, then why are you using this house in public and putting it out there on social media if this is supposed to be a safe house for certain leaders of BLM. That's just a thing. They're also, according to the article, this is according to what's in the New York Mag, they plot out direct ties between Black Lives Matter, founder, co-founder, Patrice Cullors, and her family. Apparently, there's some talk that her brother was in charge of security around the house

and in other properties owned by Patrice Colors. and that her mom was in some way granted a cleaning contract. So it seems as if the insinuation here, the allegation here is that this home is not what it seems, that this home is partially a play toy or a plaything that has been paid for by the people who have donated money to the Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation. Now, we should say that, after George Floyd's death,

donations exploded. Black Loss Matter, I think they were able to raise $60 million or was it $90 million? I've seen both numbers. Yeah, yeah, I think there's $60 million left. I think it was $90 million that they had on hand with a gigantic amount of it coming after George Floyd's death. So I guess the reason why this is so compelling to people

is because it seems as if money that was raised on the back of George Floyd's death according to this article is not being used in the way that a lot of people would say is beneficiary to the movement. All right. Now, the question that I have, the central question that I have that I'm going to ask you, and we're going to talk to Alicia Garza who's named one of the founders of Black Lives Matter, who is named in this article. They talks about a conversation that she had with Patrice and other founders of Black Lives Matter at the home itself. somehow connecting Alicia to this.

And she's going to speak on our own behalf and nobody can do it better. In a little while, we've had Alicia Garza on the show before. I will ask you this, Rachel, having read this article, some of the allegations, allegations also in the article

that upon hearing about this piece of news coming out, that it sent Black Lives Matters text chains into a frenzy where they were asking if they could kill the story, where they were having conversations, strategy conversations on the best way to present themselves in front of the story, seeming to indicate that they thought that the article itself was going to reveal something untoward, that they were like, we have to get out in front of this, we have to do this, we have to do that.

You've read the whole thing. Do you believe that there's any shading that's going on over there? I do. And that's really hard for me to say. I don't say that lightly. I don't say that because I've read one article. and I'm just going to believe everything that's written in that article. I'm doing it because it's a culmination of things.

And honestly, it actually has nothing to do with Patrice Cullors and her purchasing those homes before. We've talked about that on the podcast. That's not it. She has income outside of BLM. Since this time, she has a development deal. She's written books. She does speaking engagements.

I am pretty sure that she has accumulated the money to purchase those houses if necessary. That has nothing to do with it. It has to do with there being internal emails dating back to 2016, where you have activists voicing concerns about these donations that are given to this particular organization. It has to do with in fall 2020 that city chapters or issuing public statements talking about the network. It has to do with the fact that of families of some of these black victims who have suffered violence at the hands of the police force have complained about the way that the organization has dished out its money. It has to do with other chapters

who've complained about not getting to see the benefits from all of this money, especially when all this money is being reported, and we have no idea of knowing how much exactly is true per se, but when all this money is being donated and you have all these local chapters who are trying to, who have their boots on the ground and are trying to implement the work on a local level who are saying that that money's not trickling down, it raises an eyebrow, your antennas are up. Now, when you see that a house was purchased for over $6 million,

dollars. I understand wanting to have a safe haven for leaders who are constantly, I am sure, threatened on a daily basis. I understand and wanting to have a campus, a house where you can do the work in an organized way. But a $6 million mansion in California just doesn't seem to add up. If it is $60 something million, that's 10% of the money. Why did you need to spend that much money on it. Fine. If that was it and that was her choice, okay. But then you couple with it that the house was purchased for a particular reason. It wasn't reported to the IRS. So it seems like you're trying to hide the fact that you purchase the $6 million house. And then you're not using it for its actual intent. That according to the way this article is, and from my understanding,

there isn't much content out there to show that it is actually being used in that way. It just It just seems like there are too many things when you couple it with the timeline. When you talk about this fellowship that was supposed to be out there that wasn't even announced until April 1st of 2022, when you know this article was already in the works based on these internal emails, there was a date mentioned of March 30th, March 30, 2022. It just seems to be too many things where I have to say something's not right. And this isn't taking away from the intent and the passion of the people behind this, but something's not right with the way that the money is being dispersed.

Sorry. That's not easy to say. Yeah. So I disagree. Well, kind of. Okay. Tell you why.

Something not being right can indicate a lot of things to me. The question is to me intent. Optically, things are not being handled with certain situations. over there as they should be. Optically, it could look bad. Optically, it could. Optically, it does. When I was doing, like, when I was doing research for this, I looked up whether or not

the NAACP owns any land. Like, whether or not these other organizations own any land, they have any assets. And I uncovered an article from the Washington Post in 1982 that said the NACP, was looking to relocate because it faced 100% rent increases for the office space that it had had Manhattan for like a long time. They were plain dirty with the NAACP. And that article struck me because I was thinking it would be fantastic if the NWACP was well-funded enough

to have a place, to have things to where no one could tell them what they could do with whatever, that they weren't paying rent with anyone, that they had something where they could go or some place that they could go. I have no problem with Black Lives Matter buying a home. I absolutely do not. I don't have any problem with them buying a home.

I don't have any problem with, I don't have any problem with a large degree of it. I would say what I will say is if the question is, is there something wrong over there? The answer is not intentionally, but they're probably optically, very unorganized and babies in what it is that they're doing. Okay. So if we're talking about the fact that they that the money is accounted for, because not even this New York, New York Magazine article, this New York Magazine article doesn't allege that the money's not accounted for. That they were slow to account for it. The New York Magazine article says that they had $90 million. They spent $21 million on grants that they gave out. They didn't really get into the end and outs of where the money for the grants went. after the 21 million that they have on grants there was another $8 million that they spent and the $8 million was partly this home

all right and then other operating costs and overhead that they had. So according to even this magazine this article as I understand it the $90 million is an accounted for if it's not being spent correctly or if there is not a mechanism by which it is being spent on the things that we think

that it should be spent for meaning no one knows really which organizations or which chapters of Black Lives Matter are official arms of this actual fund and which ones are just using the Black Lives Matter name because Black Lives Matter is both a slogan and also an organization. I feel like those things need to be defined.

I also feel like that Black Lives Matter is an incumbent upon them as an organization to make sure that they are, in lockstep with the victims of these shootings by the police and in other situations to quell any type of appearance of impropriety or appearance of not being supportive between them and they've probably done a bad job with this. It is a bridge too far for me to believe that all of the people came around and they steal it.

That's not what I said, though. I didn't say that. I didn't say that you were. But it is a bridge too far for me to believe. I don't believe that. Now, people want to act like, if people,

if I'm naive for that, it's true, I don't believe that. And it would take significantly more evidence than what was pointed out in this article for me to believe it.

You know? Yeah. I don't have any contacts with anyone who's currently at Black Lives Matter now. Like I don't, there's no one I could call and get on the phone

and talk to them. There's not. I just, like, this, this will be a hell of a thing. and I'm not ready to go there but I do understand

why it's important to make them look like their frauds and I think the reason why it was important it's important to make them look like their frauds is probably for the same reason it was important to make Jesse Jackson

look like he was a fraud for many years or it was important to make Dr. King look like he was this womanizer and that doesn't mean that some of those things didn't have a tenor of truth to them but the optics of it It's the reason why you wanted to paint someone in this light and sort of reduce them down to that is to depower them. Sure.

And so I would have to see a lot more for me to go with that. Because what I'm saying with the memes, including the Marcel, like Marcellus Wiley straight up called them frauds. But Marcellus Wiley says a lot of questionable shit sometimes. Like he's like that actually doesn't shock me. And I want to be clear that I'm not saying I think they are thieves. I'm saying the stuff that I'm seeing all put together makes me say, hmm. Now, I'm on record saying, I don't think that it's their intent. That's not what I think.

I don't think that they don't have the heart or the passion to do the things they want to do. It's just that, and this is where it's like you do want to hear from them because they're right, at this point, we have this article. We have everyone having an opinion about it, except for the people who are actually being accused of it. So, like, that's where it's tough too, because there's only certain things that you can put together to form an opinion and you also need to hear the other side of it. But I do think that based on what I'm seeing, it doesn't seem like the money is being dispersed in the right way. Something seems off. Something seems off. What's off though?

Would you say that? I don't. I don't understand. The $6 million, the $6 million house in California to me, I said it just a second ago. I get the idea of a campus and the structure and having a centralized place. But the $6 million mansion seems a bit excessive. And it's not, who am I to tell people how to spend their money? but it's like you could buy a building maybe or somethings maybe not California but it's just

six million dollars for the house just seems like a lot especially when at the moment because we haven't heard the other side really it doesn't seem like in the last 17 months it was being used for the purpose that it was said it was being bought for so tell me it so tell me tell me tell me tell me I'm wrong I want to be wrong so yeah yeah we need to hear more from black lives matter and the current people, Patrice Cullors came out and she said that yesterday's article in New York magazine is despicable of a platform that's intended to provide truthful information to the public. Journalism is supposed to mitigate harm and inform our communities.

The fact that a reputable publication would allow a reporter with a proven and very public bias against me and other black leaders to write a piece filled with misinformation innuendo and incendiary opinions is disheartening and unacceptable. The reason why it wasn't announced prior is not as nefarious as the headline in first. The property needed repairs. and renovation. I do not own the property, have never lived there, and made that clear to the reporter. Okay. She goes on to say, I have never misappropriated funds, and it pains me that so many people have accepted that narrative without the presence of tangible truth or facts. I admittedly have not always responded, and I know my silence has contributed to doubt, she said, and she apologized for that. So she says that there's a reason why the house wasn't announced. The house needed repairs and the house needed things to be done with it, done to it. And so that's why they haven't really talked about. about it. Look, we're going to talk to Alicia Garza right now, but I want to say something right now.

Rachel, you don't see why they need a $6 million house. And that's, that's a you thing. Swag, baby. Okay? Swag. We're not only going to fight the white man. Ben Latham says swag was the reason they bought the six. You let me be in charge of Black Lives Matter.

If they put me in charge of it, none of these would be questions. I would, I would, when the reporters came to the house, I would roll. out to the driveway in a golf cart in a Versace road and be like, yeah, we're fighting. Shit, we're fighting hard. Not only are we fighting, but we're going to do it in style. But I would just be giving way money. If I had the $60 million, I would just be giving me money to anybody. There's anybody black.

I drive down the street, see you on the bus stop. Hey, hey, hey, we're about to buy you a car paid for in finance by dot, dot, dot, white guilt. Come in here, get in this car. But I will tell you this, Rachel, on a serious note, on a serious note, this is a story that we should all pay very close attention to

because it's, it's, there are so many, there's so many different angles here. Number one is the angle of whether or not we can trust the people that are fighting on behalf of us. Number two is whether or not

we are being unwitting pawns in a war against ourselves, which happens to black people all the time. And number three is the central question, which is, if this is the wrong way do it, then what's the right way? Because see, no one ever talks about that.

We talk about everybody that's doing it wrong. Everyone that's doing it wrong. And at this point, every single person in this movement has read on their ledger. Every single person has detractors. Sean King has him. Derey has him. Black Lons Matter Patrice and the rest of them have them. Tamika and Misan have them.

Everybody is doing it wrong, but we don't really talk about what the right is. You know what I mean? And so to me, at a certain point, I think even if there is something to, if there is something to be learned from this situation, is that what do we want from organizations as the people that fund them? And should Black Lives Matter be opened to a full-throated dialogue with people who might have questions? At this point. About about what it is they feel like they, we feel like they should be doing. Because at the end of it, they're working for us, right? Yeah, at this point, I think it's inevitable.

I think it has to, it should happen. It has to happen. But I do think that you touch on something that's so important. We're having a conversation about an article that really sheds a negative light on an organization and a movement that we both really believe in. And so it shouldn't just because I'm talking about it this way and I'm saying something doesn't seem right or other people who, are listening to this or other people out there who are having their opinions. It doesn't mean that you stop believing in the very thing that made you want to donate to this cause, believe in this mission statement. There are other organizations out there who are fighting the good fight too.

It doesn't mean that you stop just because one particular organization does something you don't like. It's not going to stop me. It's probably not going to stop me from donating at the moment. I'm not at the point either where I'm like, I'm not going to donate to Black Lives Matter either. So I don't think that you stop believing in what it is that the organization represents, but you pay attention. You pay attention. And there are other organizations, guys. Yeah, yeah. Okay, we got Alicia Garza, who is named in this article, one of the co-founders of Black Lives Matters, someone who's been on higher learning before.

She's going to respond to some of the things that were said in the article, but she's also going to talk about her specific mention in this and what that means to her on the other side of this break. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis.

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This is a deep one and one that bears some really introspective conversation. We have somebody that we've had on the podcast before. a friend of the podcast to answer some of the questions, to talk about some of the allegations made in the article, and just to talk about the whole tenor in which, you know, we're discussing this. Lisa Garza, who is the one of the former,

I think you could say one of the former heads of the Black Lives Matter national network. The host of the lady, don't take no podcast, okay, which I've been on before. And someone who's actually named in the New York Magazine article itself. Alicia, how are you doing today? I'm doing okay.

Thank you so much for having me. It's always a joy to be here with both of you. Okay, we'll get right into it. All right. Before we get into the specifics about what was brought up specifically in this piece, I'm assuming you've read it by now. I've skimmed it. You've skimped it.

So you've skimmed it. So in skimming it, let me ask you this. Is there anything in the piece that you actually agree with that you can see before we get there, that you can see the point of view of Sean Campbell, who is the investigative journalist at NYMAC, who wrote this? What I can agree with is that what we need to be paying attention to right now is making sure that we are being accountable to moving forward an agenda that is advancing black people. What I think is challenging about this article is that it makes a bunch of wild generalizations

and insinuations that don't actually get us there. Right? We are in an incredibly tumultuous period in our country, and certainly this movement has not only shaped the nation, but it's shaping the globe. And it's not lost on me that in an election year where it would be great for both Democrats and Republicans to kind of sweep Black Lives Matter under the rug, that suddenly people are concerned about where resources are going and what they're being used for. I think this is a really thinly veiled attempt to delegitimized and discredit this movement. And, you know, Van and Rachel, I'm no stranger to trolls. I'm no stranger to, you know, people who have their opinions about this movement and what it does and what it doesn't do, whether it

should exist or not. We all have the right to those opinions. But when we start to throw baseless allegations around when we start to make accusations and what I thought was a reputable publication without receipts, then what we're doing is actual real damage. We are also living in a time where misinformation and disinformation is rampant. And we are coming out of, out from under, a presidential administration that really powered that, right? It was the engine of how this country was functioning for a full four years. Misinformation. and disinformation. And it's really important in this moment as we are trying to turn the tide and turn the

corner from that, that our journalistic institutions aren't following that pathway. It's really important that we're not attacking journalists, right, for their opinions, per se, or for doing their job. But at the same time, we do need to hold journalists accountable to actually do their job. In this article with the New York Mag, my name was placed in this article with really no cause, no purpose, and no reason. There's nothing wrong with sitting down with my friend of 25 plus years, Patrice Cullors, and my other friend, Melina Abdullah, for a video on Patrice's personal YouTube channel to talk about what it means to be a black woman in leadership. And whether we did that in front of a McDonald's or whether we did that on a campus where lots of. of things are filmed doesn't actually matter. And I think it's really important that we draw those

distinctions. Why would we get from that article that somehow I was involved, right, with the purchase of a campus that I've been to once or twice? I didn't even know that BLM had purchased that campus when I filmed that video a year ago. But even if I had, it wouldn't have mattered. That organization has a right to move forward a strategy that involves building institutions to build black people's power. And for myself, I have a right to sit with my two girlfriends and reflect on what the last decade of movement building has brought us. And I think that it's important for us to continue to draw those distinctions. And I'm not sure why New York Magazine thought it fit, right? to print and post an article with a lot of accusations and insinuations, but not a lot of receipts.

I think it's important that, you know, a lot of people read this article. It is a big headline right now. And you say that there are a lot of accusations and things that are in there that aren't necessarily proven. And so I think it's important that we go through some of the things that are asserted in the article and give you a chance to respond to some of them in special. specificity, especially because your name is mentioned in the article. So my first question that I have is there are a lot of dates mentioned. And I just want to clarify something. The article mentions

that the house was purchased around October 2020. At that point, had you left your position with BLM? and if so, did this purchase or anything like this, is that the reason you decided to leave? I've been gone from Black Lives Matter since March of 2017. That means that I have not been involved in any decision-making in that organization, no fundraising, no deciding where resources go and where they don't go. And so I can't answer the question for you about the dates when the property was purchased or not purchased because I wasn't involved and I wasn't there.

For the last five years, I've been building my own organization, the Black Futures Lab. We work to make black communities powerful in politics so we can be powerful in the rest of our lives. I got to talk about that work on this very podcast with both of you. And so that's what I've been doing for the last five years, minding my business and building black political power. I've not been involved in the organization since 2017. The insinuation seems to be, and it's not a veiled insinuation, it's a very direct insinuation, that the purchase of the home was in some way, at least optically unethical, that you have an organization that pulled in $90 million, $90 million. It's been reported during a specific time, and a lot of that money comes as a result of what happened to George Ford.

Floyd, and that the house was purchased under the guise of this is a home to shelter other people working in the movement. This is a home to create content or pop culture stuff for people in a movement who want to do it like a studio space. And to have all of that, it seems as if people, the insinuation is that the home itself is not for that. that what it's for is actually for people to lay up in and have fun in. The article actually talks about Patrice filming a YouTube video there that was about baking a peach cobbler.

And talking about the fact that it can't, the house itself can't be about making sure people secure and also being a public place for people to go and film stuff at. do you agree with any of the assertions in the article that the actual intent of the home itself seems to be under some question and is a little bit murky? You know, it's hard for me to answer that question because I wasn't involved in the purchase. I wasn't involved in the decision making or the visioning or the strategy behind purchasing that home. But what I can say is this. For generations, black people have been buying land and buying property as a way to get free. And it's really important for us to ask ourselves, right, on what basis is the New York MAG making these assumptions?

I don't know seemingly any more than they do whether or not the purpose of that home purchase is being fulfilled. But I do think it's important as we lay out in this country that people get access to due process. And to be frank, Patrice and the Black Lives Matter Global Network have been ruthlessly being attacked for the better part of a year and some change now, whether it be about her purchasing a home for herself and for her family members, whether it be, I remember a couple of years ago she was being attacked for witchcraft, I mean, there's all kinds of things, right, that get lobbed at these people and at this movement. I know for me in 2020, when I last talked with you, you know, there was a story that Rudy Giuliani was tweeting around about me being a global queen pin that had teamed up with communist China and a evil

plot to take over the world. And this was something that was being retweeted by Rudy Giuliani and his son. And so, you know, I can't say why the house was brought. purchased. I can't say if it was, if it's being used for the purposes that it was laid out for, but I can say this. I think it's really important for us to read between the lines here. Black Lives Matter is not a charity organization. It's not UNICEF. It's not the Red Cross. It never promised to build homes for the homeless or feed the hungry, right? Black Lives Matter is also a political organization, just like the NAACP or the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, and it has a political agenda and a political strategy. And that political agenda is to get more

people involved in the change that can impact their lives every single day. Again, it never promised to house people, feed people, clothe people. And so this notion, right, that this organization is collecting funds under the guise of one purpose and then spending them on others just hasn't been proven. Now, I think we should have a big conversation if there are things that come out, right, that definitely show that there is some discrepancy. But from what I've been following for the last year, I haven't seen that. And what I'm really concerned about is what happens when people who are peripheral to those efforts, like myself, get brought in. What that means to me is that these efforts to investigate or to critique or to better understand

actually aren't coming from a good place. I'm not with the organization. I haven't been for a while. And so the notion that I would be included in this story shows me that the interest is more in clickbait and generating drama than it really is in getting to the bottom of any kind of supposed or alleged conflict. You know, for people who are reading this article or may have read another article, can you understand why both critics and supporters of Black Lives Matter feel that it seems to create this impression that the money donated to the cause has been spent in ways to maybe benefit certain people? Specifically when this house was said to have been purchased for a specific reason, but in the time since that purchase to now, you haven't seen that type of work being done in the house. And then, or, you know, you just spoke about how it's a political organization and it's not meant to do A, B, C, and D. But you have local chapters that have complained about necessarily not seeing some of the benefits from the money that's been reported to have been given on the national stage, but it's not trickling down to some of the local chapters.

Can you see how critics and supporters might fill a certain way? I think everybody has a right to ask themselves, is this the organization for me? Is this the organization that moves my goals and my dreams forward? Absolutely. I think about that whenever I give money to an organization or whenever I donate to an effort. And at the same time, I think it's really important for us to try and piece apart what all of this is actually about. Again, I haven't been at Black Lives Matter for five plus years. So I can't speak on what they've done, what they haven't done, how they've done it. But frankly, what I can say is that this feels like a thinly veiled attack. I still am not seeing the receipts that people are laying out in terms of the accusations. And I think for myself and for

everybody else who's watching this saga, we would prefer to see the receipts. Now, I will also say, Rachel, that absolutely there is a need to have a conversation about the tensions and challenges that happen inside of movements. This is not unique to the Black Lives Matter movement. It's not unique to the Black Lives Matter global network. And as students of history, we know that there have been debates and tensions between and amongst organizations about their strategies, about how and where they spent their resources and their time. But the thing that is unique about this moment is, is that this is one of the first times in American history that activists and organizers have had to play out those conflicts

on a national stage as if they are entertainers or celebrities. They're not. They're human people who are trying to do and accomplish the impossible. And of course, whenever people, humans, get together to try to accomplish something together, there's going to be conflict. And that's generative and that's important. So I don't think we should shut down that piece of it. of the conversation. But I do think we should have the conversation in a genuine way. We shouldn't be

lobbying around accusations that don't have factual basis. We should not be pointing fingers at people who don't actually have anything to do with the things that folks are talking about. I don't know if you know this, Rachel, but about every single day since this article has come out, I've gotten at least 500 messages a day calling me a thief, even though I've not been in this organization for five plus years. I have nothing to do with the decision making in this organization. I've not raised money for this organization, nor do I decide where it goes. These are the kinds of impacts that this kind of unintentional conversation can have on real and actual people. From the outside looking in, since you have been on the outside, do you think that Black Lives Matter as a national organization

has operated with the type of transparency that would nullify or depower articles like this from being written. I hoped that Black Lives Matter would be more vocal in terms of responding to some of these attacks. And while that was my hope, since I wasn't there, I wasn't able to direct what folks were actually doing. But I can also understand some of that silence. And to be honest with you, this week, I've been silent. I have been getting lobbed at from every single possible direction for something that I wasn't even a part of. So imagine for somebody who used to be at the helm of that organization, what it would take for them to turn around and stand in front of you and say, okay, let me just take everything that you're throwing at me right now. This is what I mean about making sure that we're tapping into what makes people human beings as well.

Now, transparency is a big deal and it's important and it's something that we should all adhere to. I don't think that Black Lives Matter should shy away from any of these questions. I also understand, given the barrage of attacks that Patrice personally and that organization specifically has experienced, why that might be difficult. I think we should continue to push to make sure that we have clarity. But along the way, let's make sure that we're not. doing undue damage to each other, to the movement that is so important to this country and to us, and to our belief that we actually can move to make Black Lives Matter in this country.

Every single day, I am focused on making sure that our communities are powerful in the face of these kinds of attacks, in the face of these kinds of obstacles. And I can tell you both that this is exactly some of the things that get in the way. And if you don't believe me, just ask some of our elders from the last period of civil rights, from people who had divisions stoked amongst them by Cointelpro and other government programs used to delegitimize and discredit movements that were moving people in ways that they didn't expect and not just black people, but white people, which is something that we also saw in 2020. I think it's important for us to remember that we've seen all of this before, that we can have.

conflict and generative discussions without tearing people down and tearing people apart. And that is exactly what I've experienced this week. And if I'm experiencing that, just imagine somebody else who is doing the same work that I'm doing, getting lobbed similar types of accusations, but doesn't have this kind of access like I do to you. It's incredibly isolating and it's incredibly hard. And I think we need to be mindful of that. since you left the organization what's your current or what's your perception of the current state of the organization not the movement but the organization you know rachel one of the things that i know from doing this work for a long time is that when you're on the outside looking in

it's really hard to get an accurate perception of what's happening What I do know from having run my own organization for the last five years is that this work is really hard. And you make mistakes. And, you know, as it comes to the work that I do, we really try to make sure that the work we do out in the world has impact and that people can depend on us to be able to do that work. My hope for Black Lives Matter, my hope for the organization and the movement is that it can depend on us to be able to do that work. continues to grow, empower, and influence, and that it gets more comfortable, right, in talking about some of the challenges that are involved in doing this kind of work. I don't think that people actually get that level of insight. When I was on the podcast last time talking about my

book, I was really saying that I was trying to pull back the curtains on what this process really means and how it functions. And what happens behind the scenes that people don't know, what happens in between protests, what happens before and after. protest, is protest the only thing that makes a movement? No. And so my opinion, right, would only be influenced by being on the outside of it. I'm much more interested in what those folks have to say about what is happening right now and what they want us to do about it, what they need from us, and also, you know, what they want to clarify. And I look forward to this organization, being able to speak on its own behalf,

and I hope that it does so soon. In the meantime, it's really, really important that we don't continue to circulate misinformation and disinformation, including, right, attaching people to things that aren't attached to them, which would be me. So let me break this down to its base level as the way I see it. All right.

It always, to me, comes back to two things in America as it relates to black people. Fear and safety. Always, right? The abundance of one, the absence of another. Hell of a lot of fear, very little self-safety, right? Whether you're talking about, I was obviously Fred Hampton, or if you're talking about Denmark VC, you're talking about anyone, we know that destabilizing efforts are always there to black organizations, into black people trying to come together, and we know that sometimes black people are used to be a part of those things.

So very, very short, we don't know who to trust. We never know who to trust. And as soon as we start to trust someone, there's another voice that says, hey, don't trust that group of people, right? Don't trust that person. Don't trust who you're supposed to trust, whatever, whatever.

And then money gets injected into that, and the whole thing fucking blows its top, right? When you talk about $90 million, $60 million, dollars, whatever the number is, right? You're going to look at a bunch of people and they're going to start to say, well, when that type of money is involved, there's no possible way you can stay honest. There's no way you can stay honest if you have 90 million in your coffers, if you have 60 million in your coffers.

What are the ways if, in fact, the perception of Black Lives Matter, the organization right now, the National Black Lives Matter organization, is either being perverted or, you know, is being purposely warped so that people have a negative view out of it to be depowered. What are the ways, the steps that you think an organization could take to make sure that that type of perception is, if not impossible, is a lot harder. Basically, is there, I feel like I asked you if they've had the level of transparency. You run an organization. Is there anything they're doing, wrong because I'm going to be honest with you. This is getting some traction. People are looking at this and they can't help but believe that there's something fishy going on when they hear about

$6 million matches that they don't get a chance to live in. When they hear about hiring your relatives and having the people around you doing stuff and their relatives are jobless. And when they also hear about the families of people like Tamir Rice or Richard Rice or say, hey, these people are raising money on the names of our dead loved ones. and we're still fucked up poor, either where we are or in Ferguson. Is there a way to go about this? Is there something that needs to be done that isn't being done? Because at the end of the day, this battle is about the hearts and minds and wills of the people.

Not about what goes on in New York, MAG and not necessarily about what goes on in those other political institutions. It's about making sure that black people are aligned in their cause. So what gives? Yeah. I mean, I wish that the global network was much more vocal about what's happening, why it's happening. And like I said earlier, what they want people to do about it. It's one of the reasons I'm here talking with you right now, right? Because it's so important to me that people understand, I have no problem telling you 100%, I had nothing to do with that.

And that's stuff that I think people need to hear and people need to know. We need information. And certainly when there's silence on one end, it can, of course, create a bunch of questions. I also want to say, though, that, you know, for me, I have been, like everybody else, watching and waiting for receipts. And I think that what I've learned in the last 20 years of movement building, as I said earlier, is that conflict is natural and it can be healthy if we enter into it with the right spirit. I think that most people want this movement to succeed.

Black folks do, right? And I agree with you that there is this way in which we are waiting to be disappointed because we've been disappointed before. But what if we actually gave people the benefit of the doubt? Just like what we've been fighting for, right, as a part of this movement. I don't think people who are a part of this should be exempted from that level of consideration. I also think it's important for us to have these dialogues about transparency, about how we beef with each other, and make sure that we understand that what I understand about beef and transparency and dialogue is that it's necessary for movements to get better, to get sharper, to grow bigger and stronger.

And I would hope, right, that as we all are moving forward, that what we're not doing is just what we call armchair quarterbacking, right? The only ways that movements succeed, right, is if people participate. And so my hope here, right, is that what we're actually doing is both paying attention to what can I do to help move this movement forward, that we're also paying attention to just doing a lot of listening. Again, conflict is not abnormal. And I can tell you it's not unique to BLM. It's not unique to this movement. And so that is really the way that I approach it because I understand what some of my

elders have experienced with conflict, whether it be beef over ideology, whether it be beef about strategy, whether it be beef about resources, right? The number one thing that people have told me, the people whose knees I sit at, right, say to me, it's really important. to listen and to gather your information before you start making accusations. And so that is a piece of advice that I would give to everybody who's trying to pay attention to this. And I think it's also important to keep pushing for the dialogue, right? Unfortunately, I can't give you the answers about BLM, but I do hope that BLM does step up

to give those answers and to give them in a way that helps to help people have the information that they need to make their own decision. And again, then you decide, am I going to be a part of this or am I not? There's lots of organizations that are a part of this movement. It's not just BLM Global Network. And I want to make sure that we're both nuancing, right? What makes a movement that we're nuisance, how we understand what movements are supposed to do, what organizations are supposed to do, what's in-bounds and what's out-of-bounds, that we understand. We understand, understand that conflict is not unique to this generation or to this specific movement or organization and that we understand that there's a lot at stake right now. And I always look at

every kind of accusation towards people who are public with an eye towards, well, what does one get out of making this accusation successful? Like I said earlier, I know that we are approaching an election season where both Democrats and Republicans would like BLM Global Network to go away. And so I also look at these kinds of accusations from that lens. Now, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, right? I'm able to gather a whole range of facts and information and then make a decision for myself. But I can't shake, right? What we've experienced over the last year, where literally, right, all of the things that black movement made possible, including a shift in power in the White House, including a shift of power in Congress, is now being so voraciously attacked.

And I don't think it would be this voraciously attacked if white people were not on board 100% with Black Lives Matter. So I just need to keep repeating that because I think it's multifaceted. It's not as simple as they're shady or they're not shady. Here's my last question to you. I think it is important that you establish that you haven't been a part of the organization since 2017. And I think people affiliate you with it just because of you are a co-founder of this organization. And I know that it means a lot to you. It's very near and dear to you. You're passionate about it. Will you reach out to those who run the organization and maybe see if you can help implement some of the things that you talked about on this podcast, help guide them,

give them some advice, maybe to get things back to the way they were when you establish this organization. Rachel, I can tell you that I have said that I'm available for that kind of counsel. And I have also encouraged the organization to speak out and to give its side of the story. And we can only hope that that's what it does moving forward. All right, last question for me. We'll let you get out of here. Sean Campbell is the guy who wrote this piece.

It's not the only piece that he's wrote for, written for New York, Mac. I also read in preparation for this interview, another piece from back in January, maybe from last year, I can't remember now, where he seemed to, at that point, cast aspersion on the purposes

and the goals of Black Lives Matter, the national chapter of Black Lives Matter, the national entity of Black Lives Matter, where the money was going and some of the dissension that's in it. The tenor of that piece seemed to be that the national brand of Black Lives Matter was somewhat less than supportive, sometimes at downright cross-purposes with the individual grassroots activists that are on the ground. This particular case, he talked about a gentleman from Huntington Beach who launched a counter-protest

to the white people of great rally that they were trying to have or whatever. Sean Campbell, your thoughts on him. Do you think that this is a good-natured sort of investigative skeptic who wants to make sure conversations like this happen and are above board? Or is he potentially a member of the shady, murky, co-intel pro-adjacent, destabilizing type of disinformation campaign that we've seen before. What are your thoughts? It's hard to say.

I don't know him personally, and so I can't put that label on him. What I can say is that the impact of not connecting the dots and being responsible as a writer has severely impacted my daily life. And I think that there should be some accountability for that. Again, I think if you're going to be an investigative journalist, if you're going to be involved in exposing what you think is wrong and you're doing that from a place of really wanting to see transparency and ultimately wanting to see this thing survive and succeed, then you're going to be really careful in your steps.

And I think this last story in particular was incredibly sloppy and incredibly messy. And like I said, the impacts of that are great. What I understand is that every single day this week, I've received hundreds and hundreds of messages calling me a thief. And I haven't stolen anything from anyone since I was 16 years old. It was Lee Press on Nails at Walgreens. My grandmama had just flown into town from Toledo, Ohio. And let me tell you about the ass what be my got from my parents that particular day. That was the last time I ever stole anything anywhere.

Shout out to Grandma May who passed away a couple years ago this month. I also want to say that, you know, in an age where journalists in particular have been attacked by the last presidential administration, the integrity of journalists has been attacked, I would think that it would be even more important to show how we are trying to strengthen and bolster this profession so that. that it is reporting just the facts. And in this particular case, it failed miserably. And so here's the impact. When we don't tell the full truth, when we make accusations that don't have receipts, when we make insinuations, here's what happens to me personally. Because this, again, happened last year when they were trying to expose Patrice

for whatever they were exposing Patrice for, I end up receiving a lot of messages, right? because sometimes people can't tell us apart. I get death threats. I get rape threats. I get threats telling me to drink bleach and die. You know, I have to beef up security. I found out recently that, you know, my name is all over 4chan and 8chan,

which is like shady dark web type stuff. And this is where those threats come from from white nationalists who really want to take out BLM and BLM leaders. And so I think it's disingenuous that this journalist, right, who previously reported that I had left the organization in 2017, then saw himself calling me a BLM leader for the purposes, right, of trying to loosely tie, again, a YouTube video that was filmed for Patrice's personal channel to some large conspiracy around the organization and how it spends its money. It's unfair. It's unprofessional. And it has real serious consequences and impacts. So my hope would be, even though I don't know him, that he would be paying attention to that in the future.

It's not just clickbait, right? These things have real impacts on people's lives every single day. A lot. I got one last question. One, it's a tiny one. I'm a tiny one. It's a quick one. Give it to me.

You keep, you keep saying that receipts. what would receipts be? What would be for you, if you're reading this? What would be a smoking gun that to you would signal impropriety inside of the Black Lives Matter brain trust? Because he seems to insinuate that it, he doesn't seem to insinuate. He outwardly insinuates that this article was a feared article from the Black Lives Matter leaders and heads because he says that they were trying to get it killed, that they were internal emails. and by the way, there's a snitch somewhere, but there were internal emails and text somewhere

about trying to get the article killed and trying to change the tenor of the article. And it seems as if they might have not wanted it to come out because they felt like there was some impropriety in it. So maybe they felt like it was a little stronger than maybe you feel like it is, is what he insinuated. So what would receipts be? What would be for you?

Once again, outside looking in, what would be a smoking gun? Well, look, I took drugs. journalism in high school, right? I wrote for the school paper. And so I know a little bit about what receipts look like. And receipts are facts. It's direct statements, people, places, you know, things that are on the actual record. And insinuations don't count. And unfortunately, I remember when I was trying to write articles and I wanted to insert my opinion, my journalism teacher, Miss Bell, may God rest her soul, would tell me nobody cares about your opinion. What people read the

for is the facts. And so the facts would be looking like this. And I can only speak from my own position. If you're going to include me in an article, am I on this signal chat that you're referencing? Is there anything in that signal chat that says, we're doing this in a shady way? Really, this house is for me and not for the movement? Is there anything anywhere that you can point to that is backing up your claims besides, you know, insinuations and gossip? I mean, if not, right? And it's just your gut, you got to prove that. You know, receipts look like documents. Receipts look like recorded conversations. Receipts look like somebody coming to say, I was a part of a conversation, and this is what happened, and I can show that. Those are receipts,

right? And again, I can't speak on this transaction. I can't. can't speak on the strategy or anything else from the organization. But I'm still kind of curious, like, what were you doing trying to rope me into that? Right. Like, you didn't provide any receipts as to whether or not I was involved, but you certainly insinuated it. And then you didn't back it up. And it has real consequences.

Alicia Garza, thank you for joining us today. Yeah, thank you for being here. Thank you for having. You're doing okay, right? I mean, you can't be doing. You're all right, right? You know what? I'm okay.

Thank you for asking. Okay. All right, sister. We are going to jump to a new topic on the other side of this break. Hang in with us, guys. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP

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the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. This episode is brought to by Borris Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Borishead just did that. Bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means planning your whole day around it, presenting the Friars turkey breast only from Borshead. The backyard tradition now available behind the counter. Visit your local deli today.

Discover the craftmanship behind every bite. Borshead committed to craft since 1905. All right, Rach. There's a lot of BLM right there. BLM, we talked about it, okay? It's time to move on. We're going to move on. We're going to keep our eyes on that.

I'm hoping to get Sean Campbell on, the guy who wrote the piece. I would like to get him on. Talk to him. I think we could make that happen. I think we can make that happen with Sean Campbell. All right, something happened today.

Ms. Jackson, Ms. Justice, if you're nasty. I just came up with that off the top of my head. Well, it wasn't hard. I'm a genius. What do you mean?

See what I'm saying? Support, man. It's all about support, Rach. Miss Jackson? Miss Justice, if you're nasty, because she's now speaking more justice.

I know. I get it in the Jackson reference. I get it. Fine. You're a genius. You're genius. That was incredible. You know what?

Think about it. You don't support my songs. Let me ask you a question, Rachel. When did you first watch Two Dixon Strangers? When did you first watch it? I definitely watched it. I know you watched it, but when did you watch it? I don't remember when I watched it.

It was later on in the process, wasn't it? You didn't watch it when I sent you the screen or did you? I did not. just remember guys just what I'm saying just remember just remember y'all be on my ass I did not

but I watched it okay I know you watched it very supportive okay Kataji Brown Jackson's confirmed as the first black female Supreme Court justice 53 47 53 47

53 people voted for it 47 racist did not um it's a it's a it's a reality. Rachel, how do you feel? I feel good. You know, we talked about it before about the process that she had to go through, although she was confirmed in a very fast amount of time and rightfully so because she is so qualified for this position. It felt good. I loved the images of her, the still pictures of her, crying, smiling, happy. It just represents so

much and it's so beautiful. And I do think that she will like inspire a whole generation for people to say I can do the same thing. And I just think it was a really beautiful moment. And I love the moment where they clap for her and that vice president Kamala Harris gets to announce it. She smiles. And they give a standing ovation for a while. I loved that because that's what she deserves. And I'm so happy. And I hope she saw that moment. I hope she saw that moment. equally the moment where the other Republicans were walking out, which just is so symbolic of what's happening right now politically. Something I want to know.

I posted about Justice Jackson. What? Justice Jackson, until she gets sworn in, it's kind of not. But yeah, justice is like... No, let me tell you why, pause. What the fuck? I am notorious for messing up names. And when two people got two last names like that,

I question myself for a second, I almost said, Justice Brown. And that's why I stop. Okay, Justice Jackson. I posted about her, and a lot of people were, you know, we're congratulating and saying how great of a moment it is in the comments. And there are people who, of course, want to use the talking points that the Republicans throughout

to try to say that she was disqualified. What I need those people to understand and what I find it so interesting is, some of the same Republicans, Republican senators who voted no for her confirmation to the Supreme Court, voted yes for her to be on the federal bench. It's the same law.

Lindsay Graham, it's the same law that's being applied. It is all federal. And if you can, if she is qualified, because you have to go through a Senate confirmation on those levels as well, If she is qualified to carry out the law in that way, why is she also not qualified to carry out the law on the highest court? I don't, it's just so, it's so wild to me.

It's just, why bring up Lindsay Graham, man? Because I just, we all know he's such a hypocrite, but it's just, I don't know the other names that, that are on that list, but I just, I know specifically he's not, he's not just that he's a hypocrite, though. He's like a fucking weirdo. Like, I don't even take him. He looks like he jacks off. to squirrels. Like he's like a fucking, like he's just a

lady, he's just like he's like a weird. He's like a weirdo. He looks, he's like a weird guy. Like I don't, I have to maintain some sort of because we have to move on

and as a country and be able to work with people. God damn it if these motherfuckers don't make me fucking sick. Oh my God. Um, anyway, I'm happy for Justice Jackson.

I'm very pleased. I do not amend anything that I said about this early on. I do believe that this is a huge symbolic gesture and means that we have one more liberal voice on the court, but I do still want black Americans to keep their foot on the gas as it relates to the Biden administration and continue to push this administration to deliver on some of the campaign promises that they said they were going to deliver on.

But I'm going to, I'm not going to admit, I'm not going to lie. This has had me all of my feelings. In a good way. Yeah, I'm a true, true Negro. I watch her and I'm like, God damn, nigger, we did it. You know, this is that feeling. It's probably the same feeling that people get from me when they hear me singing on here. Like, God damn, we're excellent.

And you just ruined this. But it is, whatever. It's amazing. Okay. Tennessee Republicans might inadvertently legalize child marriage. You heard that right. Tennessee Republicans might inadvertently legalize child marriage. There's some Tennessee Republicans that want to make common law marriage legal,

but the bill being pushed through in the legislature this week doesn't have any age requirements and opponents say that paves the way for allowing child marriages. Representative Tom Leatherwood, the Republican from Shelby County, who represents Arlington sponsored House Bill 233, introducing it in the Children and Family Affairs Subcommittee on April 23rd. The legislation is designed to legalize. as common law marriage in Tennessee as a way to push back against the LBGTQ movement. Current Tennessee law states you can get married as young as 17 if you have parental consent.

Critics worry that if House Bill 233 passes, it would pave the way for child marriage and sex child abuse. Have you read very much on this story? Yeah, I've read it. I just, I just, I cannot handle house. stupid people are willing to be in the name of just pushing the Republican talking points. I just don't get it. And also, I kept reading this and I was like, why is it so bad to have common law marriage? Why is it so bad to have common law marriage? And then I was like,

okay, because the bill says it has to be between one man and one woman. And that's why it fights, it goes against marriage equality just to put that out there. Because I was like, I'm not understanding what's wrong with common law. Okay. And then I read it. more intently, deeply. The fact that you are willing, just because you want to fight to keep marriage the way that you want to see it between a man and a woman,

and you want to overlook the fact, when the man, the senator who proposed this bill was questioned about the fact that it does not have an age listed in this bill, he said, well, I just figured it would be assumed. When do we start assuming certain things with bills? You guys, this opens the door for any child to get married at any age, and this is pedophilia. It opens the door for that. The Republicans want to fight that so in such a big way, but you're allowing this bill to move

forward, all in the name of fighting against people who are in the LGBTQ plus community, but then you're opening the door for pedophiles. It's just the dumbest thing. ever. I just, I cannot get over how stupid these people can be. This story is very interested in me for a couple of reasons. Number one, the way the fighting goes, obviously this bill, I'm saying obviously, but I sincerely hope so. This bill is not a pro-child marriage bill.

I don't think that they're trying to. No, it's not. So I think that some of the headlines surrounding this, some of the headlines, surrounding this are intentionally framing it as that to bring attention to it right to kick them into it right to kick them in their nets this is the same thing that happens on the other side when it's like oh Obama is like wants to kill your grandparents uh when he was putting out Obamacare or or whatever like there's death panels to see whether or not people can die or whatever um however uh looking

at this it's important that it comes out I went to snopes.com okay okay yes your website I went to snopes.com I love the people over at Snopes. I went to Snopes.com and I read through it and I read about the intention of the article as opposed to, you know, how it was received. I do think it's important to highlight some of the holes in this, though, because I think those holes, to your point, only really happen in bills that are this big when they are influenced by hate and a direct rhetoric or agenda that is at cross purposes with human freedom. I think a lot of times like dysfunction is a byproduct of evil by the way

fuck the Tennessee Republicans we're going to stay on there next that bill sucks there's a lot of things that are going on down here these abortion bans are running rampant now I'm good to see Justice Jackson up there we need as much help to protect reproductive rights as possible

Oklahoma, the legislature has just passed a near total ban on abortion. And I think it's going to be sort of incumbent upon the states that are not aligned with this type of oppression to really dig into how they can punish. Like, this is civil war talk. I don't think that talk is going to work with some of these states that are trying to take away. reproductive rights. I think they're going to have to be economically punished. I think it's going to take us by encouraging places the same way it was kind of done in South Africa. It's a little bit more dicey right here, but there was a big call to divest from South Africa in order to put the stranglehold on the economy there because they were an apartheid state, right? It's a

It's a lot dicier to do here because not a lot of these places need us as much as whatever. But I think we're going to have to really put pressure on corporations, places like Disney, places like Amazon, places like that to really stay out of business with these spots because they are not stopping. Like there's a full-fledged war on women's bodies happening. And it keeps getting worse and worse. For those of you who aren't familiar with this bill, it's not a proposed bill. The bill has been written and it is now gone to the governor who said that he will sign off on bills that limit abortion. This bill will still require you if you are raped or a victim of incest to keep the baby. So you have once again men telling you that, you know what, it's not that baby's fault that that happened.

It's a terrible thing, but it's not the child's fault, not considering the woman at all. That's what's happening right now. the only exception in this current bill is if there's a medical issue. That's it. So you have what happened in Texas, which we've talked to at great length, so that you have people in Texas who are probably flocking to Oklahoma for where their reproductive rights weren't challenged in that way. Now they can't even cross the border and go to Oklahoma because this bill's about to pass. It is so important that we continue to keep talking about this and not to just let this die. It is happening.

anytime a bill don't say gay bills sorry to go off on a tangent but it it was passed in florida ohio's got their own it's happening one state gets it done the other states start doing it and it's just going to go to the supreme court which is why it goes back to what you were saying about justice jackson now being on we need people like her on this court that can protect women and their rights i just can't i cannot believe when i saw this oklahoma bill i couldn't believe it's terrible it's terrible So it's time for us to get a little interracial in a really weird story. Okay. According to CBS Miami, the Miami Police Department claims that a man was stabbed to get death after a domestic incident with his girlfriend.

Now, this headline says, I have a problem with this headline. I do. The headline says Miami man stabbed to death after domestic incident with OnlyFans' minds. girlfriend. I don't know what her only fans has to do with the fact that she's stabbed. I think when stuff like that happens, that is an attempt to demonize sex workers and to say that she is some sort of, she is in some kind of way morally corrupt because she was an only fans model, okay?

Model whatever, okay? The fact that she's the only fans model, what the hell is I have to do with anything? All right, but I'm not on her side because it looks fucking back. I guess I had a different interpretation because I think they were trying to say, because I saw OnlyFans and either Instagram

or OnlyFans and Influencer because I think they were trying to establish that she is popular in some, in certain sectors. Yeah, I didn't know who she was. I went to her OnlyGram. Her only fans. You still have an account?

OnlyGram. Only Graham. No, I don't. Don't bring up, hey, no. I did. That's a real question. Yeah, hey, no. Nigga bin, only, fat.

Hell no. So this is the deal. Woman stabs a man in one perido, one perizo apartments in Edgewood, the neighborhood of Miami. It's Edgewater. I lived right there. Edgewater, Edgewater, Miami. So, oh, this was, you lived. this is where you live down there.

That's on 30th Street. I lived on 18th. It's right there on the bay. It's a very nice building. All right. The man has been identified as Christian Toby Obunceli. He's black. His girlfriend is a white model.

Friends say that he recently moved to Miami and was living with his girlfriend at the building where he was stabbed. The girlfriend's name hasn't been publicly released yet, but people are, really, really upset about this because it looks as if he was stabbed multiple times. He is now dead and the police

let her off. All right. Courtney Taylor is her name. She's been in music videos for G. Easy. B.B. Rexa. Now there's another part of this. A friend name Ashley Vaughn told a local news channel that there has been domestic violence in the relationship

from Courtney Ashley Vaughn says we've seen her hit him I've never seen him hit her but yet another neighbor has said that they got into a

heated argument not too long ago and that led to Taylor being physically abused so the optics of this case are black man stabbed multiple times by white woman white woman not even arrested and now it's up in the air who

was the antagonist in the situation that led to this guy's death there's yet another piece of this Rachel there seemed to be some old tweets from him have you seen these tweets? Yeah I didn't see the tweets I saw the headline so the old tweets from him seemingly

are him shitting on black women okay so this is what I want to come to in this situation I want to ask you something the fact that he that this woman wasn't arrested or held as of yet something we'll see what happens with that let's say she did stab him up let's say she did do it and like she she did she did not in any way have a self-defense beef in order to do that would your opinion of him being stabbed by a white lady change because he had prior tweets dissing black women and saying that he only wanted a white woman. I see that a lot of people, when I put this up and I said this is nuts, I immediately got hit back with a bunch of people saying basically that because of his past tweets and statements on black women that he got what he deserved. What do you think?

Okay. Well, first off, she is being held under the Baker Act for mental health. in Florida. She's not detained. She has not been arrested. Nothing like that, which is what people are upset about. But when police came on the scene, she threatened to kill herself and they immediately detained her under the Baker Act. So she's hospitalized right now. So I get, I don't think you get to do that. I understand that you cannot like the fact that this man, I am a black woman, is talking in a disparaging way against black women and clearly has some sort of self-hate for himself and towards the women who are black women as well.

There's some type of hatred there, clearly. And he feels some sort, and he felt some sort of way by having a white woman on his arm. However, this man is dead, y'all. This man die. And everything is pointing to the fact that he was killed by this woman. for whatever reason he was killed by her. I'm not going to allow his past to say he deserved to be murdered.

That's ridiculous to me. Does it make you, does it make you careless? Does it make you care less that he was murdered because he diss black women in the past? No, the man was murdered. This is life. This is a life here. Like,

I don't have to like the man to not care about the fact that he was just murdered, period. Like an injustice was done here. what it was. Yeah. Yeah. And if in fact, yes, allegedly murdered. If in fact that's what it was done, I'm not going to sit here and say he was murdered, but I'm not going to do that. I just can't do that. I don't have to like somebody to not say that this was a concern and this wasn't right, right? I don't like the fact that he was talking about women that look like me, but a man died here. Yeah. And if I'm going to butt it, because that's the people do that with us, right? People do that with black people. He did this, but. But. So, but. So.

we start bringing up other things about that person rather than realizing exactly what happened? I just don't agree with that. That is kind of different. But I just don't think you should, the man died. Yeah, I get it. I get it. I get it.

I get it. I get it. I will keep an eye on that story. But a lot of people upset. A lot of people upset out there. Okay. Don, you know what? It's been a heavy show.

Let's get to mailbag. And let's hope that your computer is able to keep up with being Rachel's intense, sharp minds. Come on, Brum. mailback time time to read your letters and then we'll reply to them oh it's mailback time write us with your queries and we'll chime in yeah this is uh redemption time i got it all right bubble underscore t 35 on reddit wants to know what was the worst movies slash tv show that you've seen It's hard. I have to watch a lot of TV shows that I don't really care about for work for interviews. So I'm not going to be specific about that.

Let me tell you why this one's doors. It's a movie called All the Kingsmen. And it is about, it is about Huey Long. But it was written and directed by Steve Zalian. and it took place in Louisiana. Hold on. What's the name of movie? All the Kingsmen?

All the Kingsmen. Wait, wait, wait. Okay, you figure that out. I got to go to the bathroom. All the Kingsmen. Sean Penn, James Gandalfini, all of those people. I mean, if they shot it in Louisiana, it was a big deal, loosely based on the life of Huey Long.

And the movie had such talent. Let me tell you who was in this movie, All the Kingsman, 2006. This is the movie. It's a really, really. written by Steve Zalien, directed by Steve Zalien. This is the cast of Alder King's Men. Champin, Jew Law, Kate Winslet, James Gandalfini, Mark Ruffalo,

Patricia Clarkson and Anthony Hopkins. That's the cast of this movie. That's the cast of the movie. And guess what? It fucking sucks. So it's not like it's the worst movie that I've ever seen. But the fact that they came down there, we had such high hopes.

We thought it was going to be award show this, award show that, and the movie was trash. To me, makes it one of the worst film-going experiences I've ever had. All right. Next question, Donnie. All right.

Next question is from Quaker Lightning on Reddit. They ask, what breed of dog would you be if you could be a breed of dog? Whatever copper is. I want to be copper. That's half Pomeranian, a fourth German shepherd.

an eighth chow and an eighth American Eskima. I'll be honest with you. He's a, he's a great dog. I'll be honest with you. I couldn't really be Bozeman because Bozeman was just too friendly. Boseman's just like, hey, friend, hey, you know. So I'd probably be, I'd probably be like a lovable fat bastard dog, like a lovable, fucking, give me like a portly dog, like one of those French bulldog.

you know like I'd probably be like one of those the ones that sink if you throw them in the pool do they sink nah see I can't be that I'm a great see they can't swim they're actually not I heard someone tell me they're not supposed to exist yeah so that's not me God wants me around um oh no that's a great question you want to be a bulldog you want to be a bulldog bulldog would be cool bulldog would be cool husky I'd be a husky oh that's a good one I'd be a husky except I don't like the cold, but I'd be a husky. I'm a husky, I'm a husky, you know, I'm, I can be a little aggressive, but I can be your best friend, you know what I mean?

I'm handsome, all of that stuff. All right, let's go. All right, Hotei suave 245 on Instagram. Would you rather have hiccups for the rest of your life or Cheeto fingers forever? Next question. We're in a fucking around with you. All right.

Lainee, bug. I have to be a decent question. I love you, Jose. Was it she, did you say Cheeto fingers? It's not, it's like, it's like, come on, Jose 24 or five. Okay. I'm not, no, I'm not going to be, it's not, hiccups, I hate hiccups. I do too.

They're painful. Yeah, I just. All right. Yeah. Jose Suave. That's actually not that bad of question. It isn't it? Laney underscore above 42 on Instagram.

They ask, what are some other names you thought of to name your dogs? Simba. Simba, let me think. And Hennessy. It was Simba, Hennessy, or Copper? I can't really think of any other names that I had. I don't think, I don't know. Bozeman, it popped in my mind and it was, I can't think of any other name.

Remember, we got Bozeman like four months after Chadwick died. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, so I can't think of any other names. I can't think of any other names. All right, last one. All right. Last one is from Claire Zussman on IG. What would you be most likely to go to jail for?

It's a good question. Great question. Wait, wait. Is this? Okay, Van. Public indecency, yeah. Do you want to take that back? No.

Like a flasher? You want to run around opening your trench coat to people? I wouldn't do it on purpose. but what I'm saying is if I was going to be arrested to something, here's the thing, I hate clothes. I hate them. Like I hate clothes, hate wearing clothes.

The first thing I do when I get into the house is take all of my clothes off. All of them. Sit down there. Bannabob, b'bam. Dick in your face. Don't. Bann a bount bown bick in your face. So, so like I, like I.

Actually a little bit of a bob. Like I So sometimes I want to walk outside and do something And there'll be times in my mind where I legislate Yo man there's nobody outside right now You're like you don't have to put Your shorts on

Just put the robe on and go out there right Like you don't like there's nobody like One o'clock in the morning I got to go grab something out of the car Or I got to go out and get food That they've left outside at the front and I'm thinking there's nobody out there. Why would I have to put on clothes to go out there?

And so I could see a situation where I walk out there and the Shaleli is swinging and someone goes, oh! That's the sign they would make. Oh, but oh. And then they would call it. But then why would they call the cops? If that, if they're going to go, oh, why would they call the cops?

They're going to call the cops. They're going to, they're going to call it. So I could see that if I was going to, because I'm not, I don't be breaking laws like that. I'm a law by. I don't either. That's why I'm trying to figure out what mine would be. I think you should answer from the point of if you were to intentionally commit a crime.

If I was intentionally commit a crime. And you knew you could get away with it. Well, I would do embezzlement or something like that, right? Like if I knew I could get away with it. You know what? It would probably be embezzlement. Let me tell you why. Because I remember this movie named Office Space where they were in the thing.

They were taking one cent away from the company. one cent away from the company until they had like a million dollars and I was thinking I would do that shit one cent nigga you can't give me a cent over all of these transactions you know but I was thinking I would do that but I don't you know I don't really be stealing like that

I'm not like I don't like you and Alicia Garza I don't be just stealing I've never I'm not like as Alicia said don't put my name in that she had them press on nails popping you never stole anything Rachel I don't want to comment Whoa

Whoa Yes and that's all I'm going to say That's all I'm going to say I was peer pressured and I failed I failed and I did it Rachie you got to give us this story on the next pocket No it's not an exciting story It's just that I did it would you like to guess from what store

Ooh What kind of story is it? Well One was a craft store and two the other one was a clothing store you stole twice

yes oh my god Winona Ryder over here like you still like you still like you I was young I was young wow you know see nigga you always leave the shit out limitations

don't have I send you always leave the shit out you didn't just steal you went on a fucking spree I didn't go on a spree they were too different times Cut. So you're like, whoa. I'll tell you right now, man. I've said too much. I'll said too much.

I will not incriminate myself. I will not. I just, that's all you get. Somewhere right now the judge, somewhere right now the judge is writing like a decision or something and he just dropped his pen and got pissed off. He can feel it. He can feel it.

When you're young, you do stupid things. It is true. It is true. It is true. But yeah. Bona bop-b-b-b-dick in your face. Okay. Don't lawyers, take your thinking cats off.

I got to go. I got to go. I got to go work a red carpet. All right. In the show. In the show. I'm going to say the song. I can't have that in my head when I'm on a red carpet.

They're going to be like, oh, is that a new bop? Dicking your face. Dicking your face. Dicking your face. Dicking your face. Dicking your face. Take a Take a

Take a deep caps off But do not stop learning I am Van Lathen Jr. I'm Rachel and Lindsay Bye guys