Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Boycotts, Target and Tabitha Brown, Plus Snoop Speaks

Episode Date: January 28, 2025

Van and Rachel react to the death of DJ Unk (6:04), before discussing Tabitha Brown’s response to a call to boycott Target for ending DEI programs (15:40) and the Air Force’s choice to walk back a decision to end the use of a Tuskegee Airmen video from basic training (42:11). Then, Snoop Dogg responds to criticism for performing at a Trump inauguration event (57:03), Raven-Symoné speaks on racial identity (1:15:15), and Trump’s actions toward Colombia spark a debate on American supremacy (1:27:36). Plus the Michael Jackson biopic goes through major reshoots (1:39:11). Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Howe learning is on is I Van Lazyton Jr. Now it's me, Rachel and see. I am recording. Get your shit together. I'm sorry. Have I not been bedridden for the past few days?

Nobody cares, okay? You have to, you're at work. You know what? They believe you. Huh? They believe you. You're right. I am at work.

Just like I came to work Friday as well. Mm-hmm. You're sick. How are you feeling? I haven't taken any days off. I'm good. I'm turning a corner. So, you know, fevers down, went to the doctor, got diagnosed with flu A and B. I saw a lot of people are like Rachel's always sick. I actually haven't been sick this year in regards to sinus infection flu as in 2024, which is big for me. I had the flu in 2023 at the end of it. And now I have the flu again. But I've actually been doing well.

when I come back from the national championship game, I usually get sick and I should know better. I caught COVID last time. But I'm doing much better, still healing, but much better. I did have a bit of a relapse when the Cowboys named their head coach. Or when I found out the Cowboys named their head coach at a bit of a relapse. You don't like it. And I would also like to say that I am taking bids to ban.

wagon for a new team. We're welcome in fans. Come to be, come to the lines. Oh, y'all, y'all laid an egg. Y'all laid an egg. I would have been, I would have been down for y'all. It's looking like the commanders. I would have been down for y'all but I really don't like the way things in it for y'all

this season. Future's bright though. I don't have any faith. Future's bright. That's what they all say. You're going to be like the bills. You got to, I mean, the bills are just, the bills are running up against the baseball. You never won. I'll say this, though. This is what people know about you.

You bandwagoning for a team inside of the division is crazy. That's nuts. You're saying that you being a Cowboys fan and saying that you would become a commander's fan, it's crazy. Desperate? It has been literally 30 years now. We're 30. I'm tired. I have given it a strong run.

I just would like to feel something different. And the hiring of Brian Schottemeyer feels like a punch in the, what I don't care. Okay. Feels like a punch in the stomach. It feels like you're playing in our faces. That's what it feels like. And I've had enough. It's been a rough, I've had a rough couple of years.

I would like to watch my favorite sport in peace and not feel like I'm being played with. So I'm taking bids for a new team. I said it. It's out there. There you go. I know I'm not alone. Quick recap on everything. Super Bowl is set.

It is Patrick Mahomes and Taylor Swift versus the Eagles versus Jalen Hertz, the man who single-handedly has destroyed the notion of rappers having fancy chains. Jalen Hertz versus and sacred. Juan Barkley, who's playing like fucking Barry Sanders. Chiefs, Eagles, preliminary picks from everybody here. Preliminary picks. I'm taking the Chiefs, just because they have to lose in order for me to believe it at this point. Donnie, Ashley, Rachel, preliminary picks, who you got?

Wait, you said they have to lose in order for you to believe in it? Yeah, they have to lose a playoff game for me to believe that they can't lose a playoff game. at this point, they just take advantage of every mistake the opposition makes. It's annoying. And they have to rest with them. I mean, I'm going for the Eagles because I can't stand the Chiefs. Like, I don't like, I did the same thing with the Patriots. I don't like dynasties, unless it's the Cowboys.

I just don't like it. I think the Eagles are exciting. That's probably also controversial because they're a division rivalry. But I like Jalen Hurry. I'm rooting for Seguan. He's playing like somebody who wants to win. They have a lot of weapons on offense. I believe if they play a perfect game, they can win.

So I'm rooting for them. They've got to play a strong second half. They have to play a strong second half because that's when the Chiefs always show who they are. Donnie? I'm rooting for the Chiefs. I think the Chiefs are going to win too. I'm rooting for Andy Reeves.

more than the Chiefs. I'm rooting for Andy Reed. I don't like the Chiefs, but I like Andy Reed. I don't like either team, but I feel like the Lions fan in me is like, it's supposed to be us there.

So I can't root for the Eagles who are in our spot. I'm rooting for the Chiefs. Go Andy Reed's. If y'all had lost to the Eagles in the Conference Championship, I would feel you. But like, Donnie, come on.

Yeah, yeah. It wasn't meant to be too many injuries. What do you think, Ashley? This is one of the few topics I'm not qualified to talk about. There you go. But I will say this. I'm not a Chiefs fan because I remember one time my mom said that she wasn't one.

So I'm going to say the other team, others are the Chiefs. What the fuck are we doing? The other teams. Okay, so like, comment, subscribe, share, watch us on YouTube. Make sure that we're in your algorithm. All right. It's happening. Get there.

Before we get the podcast starting it underway, we have to say goodbye to somebody. DJ Unk, Anthony Platt, has passed away. He died at age 43. You guys might remember the songs, Walk It Out, Two Step. It's a big part of the Atlanta musical movement that was happening in the early 2000s into the 2010s.

He died in his sleep of cardiac arrest. He had had his first heart attack in 2009, spoke about it a little bit. And of course, we know that once you have one heart attack, cardiac disease tends to follow you around a little bit, and you can have problems going forward. This news hit a lot of people hard. Guy was one of the guys of music that always seemed to have a joyous movement around him,

the tall tease, the dancing, the fact that Andre 3000 jumped on the Walk It Out remix and delivered a verse that we didn't expect, to go along with the song, and it was like, what's happening? It was just a fun time to be into hip-hop. So rest and peace, the DJ, man. Rachel, anything to say? I mean, it's just to piggyback on what you're saying.

He was 42, and it's sad for a number of reasons just because he's so young. I think not just because he was so a part of our upbringing, particularly college, movie soundtracks. I saw one meme that was like millennials now or like, why do my back and my knees hurt? And then it flashes back to them in 2006, all walking it out and hitting the dance. And it was just

like the song lived on for such a long time. And even the other songs that he released as well, two steps show out, hit the dance floor. Especially being in a fraternity sorority, we use the song so much, whether it was in a step show, whether it was in a strut. So just really sad

And just also really sad Just highlighting that we die so soon We talked about it before 42 years old You know A health condition Just as a reminder too Guys we have to take care of ourselves

Have to get checked out Yeah just making sure That we're on top of that Definitely die to So we have family and everything So heart goes out to them His family, his friends Everybody who's impacted by the death

A lot of celebrity stuff in the show today, just to let you guys know. I'm seeing a lot of names in the show. I've seen Raven Simone in here, Michael Jackson in here, Snoop in here, Tabitha Brown in here. Lots of celebrities, stuff, but stuff that's wrapped around issues. Calls for a lot of investigation

in terms of what these famous people are saying and doing. Speaking of that, I do want to just ask you about one thing. Have you been seeing the back and forth between Marcellus Wiley and Ryan Clark? From what I can view, yes. Okay. This has to stop. This should stop.

It really does. It's a stop. I'm calling on, I haven't spoken to him about this yet, but I'm calling on Marcellus to actually stop it. Because there's one thing to going back and forth, but Marcellus is taking it too far, I think, personally. And he's trolling just for the same. What was the line for you?

What was the line for you where it went too far? To me, okay. So they're going back and forth about disagreements they have about Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson or whatever, but it goes deeper than that because they have a personal history. But I think at the point that you're trolling just to troll and you won't get on the phone with somebody, you know, I haven't talked to Marcellus about this. I haven't talked to Ryan Clark about anything like that. But if it's worth a conversation like in public, if it's worth a conversation like in public, if it's worth. a back and forth, it should be worth a phone conversation. It should be worth, hey, this is me, this is you, what the hell is going on.

Or like my daddy used to say, anything worth a talk is worth a fight, and anything that's worth a fight is worth a talk. So to me, it's kind of whack if it's just about having a public beef with nobody just for fun. I don't think that that's dope or anything like that. Get on the phone with them and have the conversation if you're going to do it out in public like that.

The thing is, is that requires a level of respect that neither one of them have for each other. So it's never going to get to the point where they're going to hash it out. I think the more interesting thing is we know that there's a history there and this goes back years

and all of a sudden it's reignited and I don't think that Marcellus has ever stopped poking the bear when it comes to Ryan. But for whatever reason, this issue just took Ryan over the edge and made him want to respond and he won't stop responding. And I think the more he keeps playing into, because Marcellus isn't going to stop. He's loving this. Ryan, no shade to Marcellus has the bigger platform. And I think if he just continues to ignore it, like this is great for Marcellus and his platform, not taking away from other stuff that he's doing. just saying to get the response constantly.

Response says from Ryan is great for him. Why would he stop? And he's got his fan base that keeps poking at him as well. So what I wish is that Ryan would just stop and just keep doing your thing, right? Keep being on TV. Keep doing your podcast and whatever else it is that you do. And let Marcellus just talk to himself on his YouTube channel. Yeah, but I get it, you know.

I do wish that there could be like a telebogic. That's why you got to put your pride to the side. I think. Truly. Truly. 2020 is the year of getting in a room and having a conversation to me. Oh, look at you. No, it don't have to go well. You know what I mean?

2025 is the year of getting in the room and having a conversation. Don't entertain us by going back and forth. entertain us by sharing space face to face 25 is the year of face to face anything that you were willing to say about somebody anything that you were willing to say to them to me and I'm not saying

oh we like at in our mid-40s let's engage in fisticuffs what I'm saying is if there's something to be gained from doing it for the internet there's got to be something to be gained from having the conversation with each other, whether it's in private or for the clicks and views, you know, whatever. But it's ridiculous.

Like, it's ridiculous. It gets to a point where it's like, okay, how many times are we going to go tip or attack? You guys look silly at this point. I'm with you. Talk it out or just shut up or fight. I'm down for that too. Oh, you down for the fight?

Enough. I'm so down for the fight. Who have you fought? I'm so down. Would you fight? Recently? Yeah. I'm just saying who would you fight?

Because I've been trying to get you to fight. Can I be? There's no reason for me to fight her. There is no reason for me to fight her. Give me somebody that I need to fight. Okay, someone that you could fight. I got to think about this. There's an actual reason for me to fight.

Who are Rachel's biggest ops? Like, who would Rachel fight? I got to think about who your biggest ops would be. And not somebody that I disagree with. Like somebody I actually have a beat. Because having a disagreement and having an op is two different things. We need to understand. understand that too. That's very important to say. Having a disagreement with someone is one thing. Having an op is somebody else. Having a disagreement with someone is, hey, you said something or did something or represent something that I don't believe in. Let's talk about why you believe what you believe and I believe what I believe. And that conversation can be nutritious for an audience and can also push two people forward. Having a disagreement is one thing.

Having an op is somebody who actively wants to see you fail and will do everything they can to poke you, prod you, take you off your square. An op wants the end of you, wants you to fail, wants you out of here. These people that you disagreeing with, not all of them are your ops, but some of them are. So it's very important to know.

So if you have an op, that's somebody you should probably you could fight an op. You could talk to someone you disagree with. You know what I'm saying? Anyway. All right. Let's get into it.

Speaking of that, on the other side of this, we're going to talk about boycotting. We're going to talk about Target. We're going to talk about Tabitha Brown. And then we're going to go into all the celebrities who are falling into the whirlpool.

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See terms at fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. Target is one of the latest major companies to end its DEI initiatives. Now, because of that cause, have gone out to boycott Target and actress, entrepreneur, and influencer Tabitha Brown took to her Instagram to address the potential impact that these boycotts could have. I do business all over, just like many other people. And what I can tell you is, if we all decide to boycott and be like, no, we're not spending no money of these organizations, listen, I get it.

And if that's how you feel, honey, I, 1,000% get it. But so many of us will be affected and our sales will drive, Our business will be hurt. And if any of you know business, it doesn't just happen overnight where you can just go take all your stuff and pull it off the shelves. There's a process. And then you got to, like, where are you going to put it? You got to have a place to store it. That's money.

Right? You got to have another place to sell it, which is almost impossible sometimes. And even if you sell online, it's a process when it comes to business. And everyone does not have the funds or. the means or the availability, the space to house their own products, right? But the thing that concerns me the most, and I want you to hear me and hear me well, if we all decide to stop supporting said businesses and say, you know, I can't buy nothing from there, even the businesses who were affected by the DEI ban, right?

what that does is you take all our sales and they dundle down and then those companies get to say, oh, your products are not performing and they can remove them from the shelves and then put their preferred businesses on the shelves. Does Tabith have a point about this pushback with the boycotts? I mean, yeah. She absolutely has a point. it's been a lot of back and forth on, at least on social media of, you know, is it fair for Tabitha to put out a video like this and ask this of us? But I honestly think it is. I think that the only thing that I hate and I don't fault her for this because I as well don't know the answer, then what do you do? Because it's a very long video and I know we only played a snippet of it, but it's like what is the plan?

You know, she's very forthcoming with her information and says that she's been in her contract. She is in her contract for another year. She talks about how it's not easy to pull your products from the shelf and how there are issues that come with, you know, where to house the products and promote the products and things of that nature. But the question is then how do we, what is the plan to come together as a community where you can still uplift and support these black businesses so they don't suffer? but then how do you also boycott these companies that are no longer supporting marginalized groups? Then I just thought about something as I'm talking. Something that actually doesn't make sense.

And she's not wrong. If the goal is to make these businesses suffer so that we're not buying these products, so then they become the lowest performing products to be removed from these companies, then it also sounds like she's not trying to leave Target. Does that make sense? Not that I'm trying to get her to leave Target,

but did you understand what I'm saying? Like, I'm not trying to get her to leave Target. I understand what she's saying, and I do think, what I think the middle ground is, if I was going to offer a solution, is to shop for her product online at Target and not go in the store. Because if we go into Target and shop,

specifically for Tabitha Brown's products or some other black business owner's products, you are more than likely to start buying other stuff and supporting Target as a whole. I think the middle ground is to just shop online specifically for that and then boost her product up or other black business products up to the point where they have more leverage and bargaining power

because their products are doing so well that these companies, that they can leave these companies and build their own warehouses and build their own websites, and independently produce their own products. So maybe I just answered my own question. So there are a lot of companies that are rolling back. So it's Target, meta platforms, Amazon, McDonald's, Walmart, Ford, Lowe's, Harley Davidson, a lot of different places, right? Some of these places are easier to boycott than other places.

That's very true. Some of these places are so intertwined in daily American life that it seems like it would be almost impossible to boycott them if you wanted to. You know, Harley-Davidson on here, Brown-Forman on here, John Deere on here, you know, all different places. But there's a whole list. There's a whole list. And then there are companies, to be honest, that aren't, that are saying that they are going to become the institutions that prove that DEIs is useful. For example, I wasn't a Costco member. I wasn't, but I became a Costco member.

I became a Costco member because Costco has pushed back against rolling back DEI initiatives. And to me, even the symbolism of that is important. It's important for not everyone to say this is something that has to exist in reality. Our company standards and morals mean that we are going to stand in the gap, against that, and I think it's important to support that. So as far as what Tabith is saying, it's a difficult conversation. And it tells you a lot about where we are. It also tells you a lot about leadership.

Okay, because it's like I'm not going to kick up too much dust because I don't want to ruin my Jordans. Like, think about that. Like, I'm not going to kick up too much dust because I don't want to ruin my Jordans. Right. There's a clear set of priorities that go along with that. My shoes need to be clean. The thing that costs a lot of money, the things, the thing that represents that I have a lot of money. So I don't want to ruin them by making too much trouble. The capitalist part of that is the priority. So I'm not going to have an issue with someone caring about. their livelihood, but I am going to question the mechanism that makes the livelihood and the viability as important or more important than societal change, because that is specifically the American bargain that black people and other people have had to make. We've had to choose America's version of freedom, which,

is economic power or economic viability, not even economic power. We're not talking about people that run Target. We're not talking about people that decide who runs Target. We're not talking about people who make decisions about who's on the board of Target. We're talking about people who have their products in Target. So we're talking about people who have the opportunity

to be a part of Target's structure, right? So not a lot of power in this besides the fact that they would make money. And when you when you have people saying there is something happening in the country that we don't like and we think is backwards. And one of the most significant ways for us to fight against it is to boycott or punish these companies economically because that's what America understands. And then you have somebody who is black saying, yes, but that's kind of. going to hurt me. There's this thought that, like, there's no pain that comes with progress.

That's what we're missing in our leaders. Our leaders from the past were able to convince us that the pain that we were going to feel in the name of progress was worth it. It was worth it to walk to work. If you're boycotting the bus system, it was worth it to carpool. It was worth it to put yourself in harm's way to protest. It was worth it to go out there and have. Things happened to you bodily harm.

It was worth it to be put in jailed, like the term good trouble, that there was good trouble, that that was worth it. And we don't have anybody, anyone, who can convince people now that there is something virtuous in experiencing a momentary or even prolonged discomfort for the greater good to stand in a gap of something. all we really have now when we decide that there's even

and there hasn't been even a boycott of target that's taken place. There hasn't been a boycott of it that's taken place. It hasn't even really got off the ground. But the moment that the idea happens, the first thing you get

is, well, what about me? This is how I make my living. Well, we're thinking past that. We're thinking larger than that. We're thinking about the way that we can hurt like corporations. Target as a corporation doesn't give a fuck about black people because Target as a corporation can't give a fuck about anyone.

It gives a fuck about shares and bottom lines and margins and profits and all of that. So essentially what Tabitha Brown is doing or anyone that's doing this is putting a face on a corporation and that's what confuses us. because corporations don't have faces. Corporations don't have, what corporations are are things that essentially exploit people and use people to create dollars.

And when we then decide, well, what we should do to them is use them to create change, there's always somebody that lets us know how their bottom line is going to be affected. It's so tough, right? Because where do you draw the line? All right? So Target canceled their DEI program along with a plethora of other companies that so many people rely on, you know, whether it's for shopping, whether it's for a job, a nine to five, whether, whatever,

whether their products are there. Spotify donated money to Trump's inauguration. Spotify hosted a brunch celebration with the likes of Ben Shapiro and Joe Rogan and other conservatives

does that mean that we stop working with Spotify? No. It's like, well, I guess that's my thing. It's like, where does where, like I'm specifically responding to you know, what you're saying about Tabitha.

It's so tricky, right? And in regards to Tabitha and black businesses at Target, Jamel Hill posted something, and it was a, she's a woman, I don't know her name, forgive me. She's a business owner of the Lit Bar. It's a product that sold its Target. She says it's not as out there and as big as Tabitha Brown's products, but it is a black-owned business that is on the shelf at Target.

And she frankly is like, listen, you're asking us to do these things, but also are you going to support our business? And to go back to the boycott that was so successful, it is because not only did they stop using the bus system, but they also supported each other within that. And so the question becomes that, okay, if you're going to say, hey, Tabitha, you know, like maybe you shouldn't have done that or. I don't agree with the video that you put up, are we as a people going to collectively come together and support black businesses? I'll tell you this, even if you have the desire to collectively come together

and say, you know what, I'm not going to buy my Mac lipstick anymore. I'm going to buy, you know, the lip bar lipstick. I don't even know about these companies. So I think some of that also at the same time is not just supporting the black businesses as buying their products. we don't even know what businesses are black owned and what aren't. And I think that before I get on a high horse and calling out either a Tabitha or the next person

who's pleading for you to still support their black business at one of these companies that is taken away DEI, there has to be some sort of plan in place within our community of, okay, so now how do we say when it comes to hair products, we're only buying Tabitha Brown's whatever recipe, when it comes to dishware, I'm only buying Tabith the Browns. When it comes to lipstick, I'm only buying the lip bar. Do you know what I'm saying?

Like, this is why to go back to the words you use, it is so tricky. Because you can't call for one thing if there's not something else in place. And I was thinking about this also when you were talking. I think the reason it was, and I say easier loosely for the bus boycott to work, is because you didn't have as many black people, public figures that had platforms that were separating themselves

from the black community in the way we are now. Does that make sense? It does. So this is what I would say to all of the things that you're saying. So I'm going to take them one at a time. I'm just going to talk about myself.

So let's go back to your example with Spotify. If anybody doesn't want to listen to Spotify, for those reasons, fine. Which is what Talbot is at, by the way. But there's a difference here, okay? So, and I'm just being honest, I'll get into something that happened at TMZ like years ago as well.

It's impossible to work for an American company, by and large, that's not rooted in some sort of racism or whatever, right? or it's very difficult to work for a company that is clean of any of these things. A lot of these companies are very old. Most of them are very white. You're not going to find yourself finding capitalist purity in America.

So I work for the best white people is not a thing. I work for the best corporation is not a thing. It's not a deal, right? So if you're in the game, you're in the game. Some people are in the game more directly. some people are working for, if you work for Costco right now,

you can celebrate that as being a win. You know what I mean? But if you start digging around there, you'd have to ask questions about labor practices, you'd have to ask all kinds, it's just impossible to win a purity test in this situation. But look, there's a difference between, if somebody came out and said,

there's a difference between, hey, this is my company, this is where I work, and hey, just to let you know if you boycott my company, that's going to harm me. So right now, if there was a means for or an initiative, a goal, a movement, for people to boycott Spotify

because of donations that were made or any company that I'm affiliated with because of donations that were made because of political decisions that were made because of platforming that has happened. And people wanted to start that boycott, I wouldn't stop them. I wouldn't get in the way

and tell them how it's going to affect higher learning if they do that. Because to me, that undermines their politics. Like, that undermines their politics. That undermines their movement. And I'm not front-lining for the company, even if I worked there. TMZ had a situation years ago,

this is one of the main times I got in trouble there. TMZ had a situation years ago where Mayor and Barry died, I think I've told this story before, and Mary and Barry died, and the headline was Crack Mayor died. crack mayor died right and the people in dc were pissed off because marian berry is more than the guy who was busted doing crack in dc he provided jobs mary and barry is a civil rights leader he was able to make community safer he is a stalwart and a pillar and a titan in that community and they did not fucking appreciate they did not appreciate TMZ summing up his life like that So you know who they came to?

When that happened, they came to the black guy on TMZ, the guy they see talking to these things. And they're like, this and this and that, this and that. Van, how could you? Van, what's your purpose of being there? Van, this, van, that. And know what I told them back in public? I said, this is what you do.

Keep making your voice louder. Keep these emails, keep these calls, keep these complaints coming. And when I get back in the office on Monday, I will then take your words and the problems that you have with TMZ and I'll articulate them on the show. Keep educating people. Keep it going.

Keep that happening. I got a call directly from Harvey. Directly from Harvey. Like, stop trashing the site. It's not cool because they were under fire. And me and him went back and forth. I'm like, what you want me to do? you want me to stand in the gap for the site

when the site has injured and insulted in an entire community of black people. I'm already there. I'm already tainted in the way that things happen there, but I draw the line at that. I'm not doing that. Man, me and my man, Ryan got into it because I think maybe he had written a story.

Me and Harvey go back and forth, and it gets to the point to where it gets so contentious that there's an entire segment on TMZ Live on Monday where I do my best to put into words what people, black people from Washington were telling me. That doesn't make me pure. That doesn't make me a freedom fighter or anything like that. That's just saying that if black people are going to be mad,

I am not going to be the fire hose for white people that puts that fire out. And you have to be careful in doing that. Even if my employment was with those people. So just by me being there, but just by me being there, there's a, oh, they can't be that bad. Look at the black guy they got there.

Just the tokenism itself was a compromise in a lot of different ways. But that's part of the game. That's being in America. That's part of being in the country. But when you go, look, y'all say y'all about the boycott, but just let you know you're going to hurt black people when you're doing this, that to me is thinking a little bit too small. And honestly, that's the type of thinking that over the last, particularly 40 years, post-civil rights, post-black power that has morphed to me black American politic from a very during, set of structures and a very direct set of goals that address life in America to this belief

that economic viability is the end-all be-all to American success, that this belief that there's no sense of power other than wealth and power. There's no sense of power other than who you can be on a boat with or your name being in and that just makes it into a race. It makes it into this big ball of capitalism that has nothing to do with enshrining freedoms through law, has nothing to do with understanding systemic disparity and inequality.

It has nothing to do with any of that. It just has to do with who's doing good and how we want to keep them doing good. And if anybody got to do bad so that we do better, then we can't really have a conversation. And I'm not saying that she's thinking about all of this. she's thinking about everything that she's been through in her life

to get to the point that she's in right now. But sure. That to me, it's a very important, it's a very important conversation to have, particularly in a time where we're going to need solidarity. The question it shouldn't be about, if it's me,

this is not about Tabitha Brown, this is about the method of thinking. The question should be, look, okay, the video is, okay, y'all don't want to support me in Target. These are the ways that you can support me. Do you know who should be coming up with ways that people can... It's not the people's job to come up with how we're going to continue to support these black businesses.

It's not their job to figure that out. It's the business's job to making people easy to come get there. So then why aren't we having that conversation? Why are we having a conversation about... But that's what I'm saying. Go ahead. So I'm saying it's like, I see that you guys want a boycott. Okay, cool, you guys want a boycott.

I get it. We're talking to other black businesses that are in Target. This is the way that you can continue to support us. This is the way that you can continue to be with us even though you're not coming into Target. I want to make it. But that's exactly what I was talking about.

I don't even know the black businesses at Target. That's what I'm saying. So I brought up that video that Jamel put up. I want to know who are these black businesses that are at these different conglomerates So we can come together and either purchase directly online, whether they have their own website, whether, because Talbot says she said, like, Amazon, Walmart, I'm wondering, do you sell on your own website? Like, what do we need to do?

Is it that we need to go directly to these places support you to give you that leverage to be able to pull away and you can do it independently? But the point being is, which is what I was saying, is we don't even know what the businesses are. to support. Do you see what I'm saying? Like, I get, we know, Tabith is the biggest name out there, at least when it comes to Target. She's out there, huge following.

Well, that's what this business owner with the lip bar was saying. I'm one of the smaller businesses on the show. If I, if y'all don't come here, how do I even know y'all are going to support me, period? Because her complaint was, y'all aren't buying my product. Black people aren't buying it.

That's what she was saying. So that's a concern where I'm like, okay, so how can we know about your business to buy it? now I know about the lip bar. I'm about to buy her lipstick. Right. Instead of you,

well, actually I buy them to so that it's black. But I'm just saying. Kind of black. But it, but what I'm saying is, do you understand that the, do you understand,

that's the wrong framing? Of course you understand. I get you. I get you. I get you. Yeah. But like, having the conversation

where we start and we're, we're operating from the framework that we can't do it without Target is just the... Totally understand. It's just the wrong way to look at it. What we should be saying is

we can't do it without freedom and respect for who we are. We can't do it without companies that are using black dollars to meet their bottom line but don't care about the black people that they are serving. We can't do it without respect.

can't do it without dignity. We can't do it without investment. We can't do it about any of that stuff. We should be saying we can't do it without that. But we're like, well, who's going to buy this and this and this and this and this? What's going to happen to these people? I don't know. I don't know. I totally understand what Tabitha was doing and why she came on. What I wish, and I think we're on the same page with this, and maybe there's an opportunity to go back and rectify this, is you get together with other black business owners and collectively let us the community know

because you do have the big following. People do listen to what you say. I mean, that video has gotten so much traction, whether you are for or against what she had to say. That, to me, is a start. It's like when Black Lives Matter was going. That's what we were doing. We were collectively putting businesses together on how we could support each other.

That's what we, that's what needs to have. We first need to be in the know of who and what it is that we can support before we can even get into the how. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather.

tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business to keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. All right. Let's stick to the topic of DEI and talk about what happened with the Air Force.

On Saturday, news broke that a video about the Tuskegee Airmen and women Air Force service pilots weren't going to be taught anymore at basic training in a base in Texas. But after some pushback, including some from Republican Senator from Alabama, Katie Boyd-Brit, who said that the decision was malicious compliance with DEI review. Secretary of Defense Pete Hexas responded and said, we're all over it, Senator. This will not stand. And then after all of that, back and forth,

the Air Force responded on Sunday that both videos are now being taught again. See? See what? See what a little good trouble will do? Now, it... Good trouble from who? Good trouble from people. I mean, it wasn't the white people here. What?

Who's the senator? Who's the senator that spoke out? She spoke out. She's white. But the problem, but the question is, why did she speak out? She didn't speak out because, what I'm telling you is about this? So, this is my thing. It is such, it's an unforced error for them to take teaching of,

the Tuskegee Airmen out of the Air Force. It's a historic part of the United States Air Force. It's a history of a unit that was incredibly lethal and incredibly historic, right? The outrage or the discussion over that becomes a discussion that people that has a political cost. It's such a sore thumb, it has a political cost. And these people right here who are the bad guys. Pete Hexeth is the bad guy here. He's the bad guy.

The anti-black history, anti-D-E-I, anti-Equality, anti-equity wing of American politics. To me, they're the empire. They're the bad guys, right? But they don't want to let blood for no reason. They don't want errors that make them politically vulnerable for no reason. this is a small win. This has really,

this is a win that in the grand scheme of things matters more cosmetically than anything else. However, I'll say this, though, it's still something that shows there is enough noise that you can make. There's enough discussion that can be had to where you'll make somebody course correct on something that they shouldn't be doing.

And that to me is like, a reality. I care whether or not the Tuskegee Airmen are recognized for what they did. I care about that. That matters to me. And on a Monday, it had been changed. And on a Thursday or a Friday, they had doubled back on it. I do not agree with you. I do not think that public outrage is why this changed. I think it's the first thing that you said. It is a small victory. It is, they can all always go back. It's cosmetic, as you said, they can always go back and say, we'll see what we did for the Tuskegee Airmen, which is like, that's just history. Or it's not just the Tuskegee Airmen. It's the women Air Force service pilots, WAS. They were also eliminated from the program, too. They'll go back and say, well, how could you say that we are against that, you know, black people and women when we did this? It's cosmetic. It's not public. It's not because of the public outrage. The reason I brought

up the senator from Alabama, Katie Boyd-Brett, is because that is who Pete Hegseth responded to on Twitter. That's who he said we're all over it. When she, when white people are saying it's malicious, that is the outrage that came from within their own group that I think they were like, and I'm sure they had the same conversation as just what you said. Let's give them this little thing. This is, this doesn't hurt us in any kind of way. This is history. This doesn't even have any bearing on having DEI currently in the Air Force, which is talking about the past here. No, nothing is lost for them to do this.

So I don't agree that it's public outrage that got this change. I think that they're selfish motives behind it, which is why it got changed. What happened here with the Air Force and how quick they were when they saw something that was black, when they saw something that was about women, and they were quick to pull that, is the scariest thing when it comes to DEI.

With these executive orders, there's absolutely no guidance. Everything is open to interpretation. And the way the far right defines DEI, well, one, Elon Musk flat out said, DEI means people must die. So if your DEI, which to them equals black, which to them equals queer, which to them equals women.

When DEI encompasses so much more than that, it is marginalized groups. So that's poor. That's people with disabilities. It's so much more than just what they're putting out there, right? But the problem is because there's nobody leading this, not saying that there should be because all of this is wrong, it's just open to interpretation. So anything black, queer, woman, they're just removing. And that's why this is so dangerous. And it's scary because this is just the tip of the iceberg as to what we're going to continue to see happen in society as people react to DEI rather than apply it.

And I don't even know if you can apply it correctly. I might just be saying too much when I say that. Yeah, I'll just leave it there. I was going to say something else about meritocracy. But I mean, I'll just leave it there. I guess what I kind of don't understand is a senator from Alabama, these are all policy-based positions and these are political positions. These are positions that are based in their ability to communicate things to and from the

public. I have trouble believing that if there was no public outcry from wherever it came from, about the wasps and the Tuskegee Airmen that this would have changed. I just don't understand what would have been the point from it. If there was no public outcry about the Tuskegee Airmen and the Wasps,

I just don't think that this would have changed. I think that politicians, that are a large calculus in what they take up is how it makes them look, right? If it makes them look like they're not racist, if it makes them look like they're throwing red meat or bone to their constituencies, that's the reason why they do things. That is a tool for us to use.

I mean, there's always going to be cynicism involved in what a politician does for you, right, in terms of the reason why. I don't think that that means that this particular politician from Alabama loves black people, and it certainly doesn't mean that Pete Hexeth does at all. But that can't be the calculus here. That doesn't matter. It doesn't matter why, it doesn't matter. why it doesn't matter why someone does something that you want them to do. It doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter if LBJ was a racist. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It fundamentally... Okay. There's a difference. Well, no, no, no, no. There's really no difference, right? Because I'm not comparing any of these people to LBJ, but it doesn't matter if LBJ was a racist. It doesn't matter if LBJ signed the civil rights legislation that he signed. by going, God damn, and I can't help it. But I can't fucking believe I'm doing something for these niggers. That doesn't matter. What matters is that the movement was effective enough to make him do it.

That it was, that there was effective enough pressure and effective enough political organization that he had to do it. That's what matters. He doesn't matter. The voices matter. So to me, and this is a small, almost nudge. nothing victory, right? It's, it matters to me about it. But at the same time, though, that doesn't mean that it's not a win. That doesn't mean that making them double back just right

here, that it's just, that it doesn't mean anything. The goal, and this is why I say there's a difference, the goal right now of this administration, the people who are leading, this oligarchy, is to stop forward progress of people of marginalized groups. The readmission of these videos of the past doesn't in any way stop them from what their goal is

to stop us from progression. That's why I say that there's a difference with what LBJ did. He's a racist. Signed the Civil Rights Act. That impacted present day black people and opened the doors for them to be able to move forward. That's why,

I say, I can't agree with you with it doesn't matter the reason why. I think in this case it does because the reason why I think they did it, it's not just because black people were all upset. It's because they're not losing anything by it. Because the goal is to not give us stuff from today moving forward. And this video being readmitted back into training doesn't hurt that goal in any kind of way. That's, I guess, what I'm saying. But I understand what you're saying, and I get, but it's kind of not the point that I'm making.

The point that I'm making is I can't, there are very few things that any American politician could do that are going to meet the level of like essentially granting black people citizenship in the mid-sixth. Right. You're not going to be able to do that. But what I'm talking about more is the impetus or the reason that something is done. And that to me doesn't have to be a. about winning the heart of somebody, because I think that that's bullshit. Winning the heart of someone.

I know that, I know that. But what I'm saying is I'm not comparing the things in their impact. Like, I'm comparing the things in their function. I'm comparing the people and the individuals, right? When I say function, I mean, the, hey, there was an outcry and uprising or whatever. So we course correct. We change. there's times where that happens on a small level,

when this is an incredibly small level. Like once again, it matters to me that the Tuskegee Airmen are remembered. I think it's very important contextually and for a contemporary America for the Tuskegee Airmen to be remembered, right? It doesn't matter to Pete Hexeth. He doesn't care. That I can guarantee you. But he's doing something because of pressure and because of conversation. that part of it matters.

Like that part of it matters. I just don't understand how you're saying that. So you're telling me right now that if no one would have made a big deal about this, that they would have done it anyway? No, no, no. So then why are they doing it? I think that I, first off,

I struggle with calling it a win. I'm so, and to be clear, I am so happy. It's a win if you care about the history of the Tuskegee Airmen. No, no, that's, I. And I do. and I don't want their legacy to die. I have an uncle who was right there, who flew with them,

was in the Air Force, a lieutenant. My Uncle Joe, like I have met to ski airmen because of my Uncle Joe being right there. So I totally understand this. But I guess what I'm saying is my hesitation to give them too much of anything because I know that this is something

that they will reference later on in the future. I do think public outrage played a role in it. Absolutely. But I think that is not what turned then. It wasn't, oh my gosh, there's so many black people who are upset at this. I don't think that that's what, because we've been upset about a lot of shit. I don't think that that's what it is. I think there is, hmm, we can use this.

There's an ulterior motive here. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. But in my opinion, that's, that's, but in my opinion, that doesn't matter. Because I'm not, because again, we agree and disagree. I'm not giving Hexeth or the senator from Alabama the credit for this. I give the people credit for moving the politicians, not the politicians for doing anything. I don't give a politician credit for doing nothing.

Zero zip zilch. Nobody, nothing. Nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. That's why when politicians fail the people, it is the people's job to rectify it and address it. People get mad when I say, hey, you voted for it. People get mad when I say that. But the reality is, you fucking voted for it. You voted for it.

They have a whole, they are people that have this perverted and warped. Look, most of the people that you're voting for are Harvard, Yale, Ivy League, educated people that were born into privilege. Some of them born into privilege going back two or three generations that have, absolutely no interest in what your life is going to look like. The people that they would serve would be the people that they do serve. The only way that they don't do that is if you activate, get involved, organized, protest, and vote. That's the only way they won't do it. Because if not, so all I'm saying is even if they did it to come back and like, even if they did it for a cynical reason, I can't care about that.

And I wouldn't say that it's, I'll come back, I'll acquiesce this. I would say that win is maybe too strong a term. I would say that I was pleased that the Tuskegee Airmen weren't wiped away in this entire thing. Donnie, give us the Snoop sound. For all I hate, I'm a assort with love. Y'all can't hate enough for me. I love too much. Get your life right.

Stop worrying about mine. I'm cool. I'm together. Still a black man, still a hundred percent black. All out. To your ball out. Or until your fallout. I ain't going nowhere.

Come right here. Yeah. On crypto. Yeah, get the crypto on crypto. Here we go. We got to learn to pick each other up instead of pulling each other down. That's what we grade at is black people. We grade at tearing each other down.

You could be up one minute and they'll try to pull you down. down the next, but I'm a strong black man. I'm cut from a different clone. Can't tear me down. I'm on a God's chat. One of his children. And I'm taking the load. Did he say I'm taking the load?

Oh, my God. Donnie, did he say, go back, play that again. Did Snoop say... No, Donnie. Wait, wait, hold on, wait a second. Wait a second. And I'm taking the load. Oh, my God.

What the fuck? Donnie. Play that one more time. Hold on. Play that one more time. And I'm taking the load. I'm taking the load. Fuck everything.

Snoop. How? What? That mega wall. That's a fucking crazy. We lost him. Daddy's back. Daddy's back.

I'm taking the load. Oh, my God, Snoop. Shit. Snoop said he's taking the whole. load. He's taking the load. Donnie, you ever, Donnie, you ever been in the time in your life

where you've taken the load? No, I've released loads, not taking loads. Ah, man. I mean, what you got? Nicky? Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know if you were,

I didn't know if you were through with your shitty jokes. That was a great joke. Taking the loads. Listen, I'm actually surprised that that he responded. I thought at this point

he wasn't going to. He was just like let time go on and let people forget as they typically do. And, you know, he'll, you know, pop up at the Super Bowl or, you know, have a new show with Martha Stewart or, you know,

do something. One of the 15 jobs that he has, that's what I thought. But then when I'd see this response, I'm like, of course you don't get it. Or if you do get it, you just don't care. And your response is they're against me.

I lead with love. I do a lot for my community. That won't stop. And I just think that that's the problem. It's, you know, when you look at what Nellie said, when you look at what Soldier Boy said, when you look at now what Snoop is saying, it's all about themselves

and not really about the community and the fact that you think that people are specifically attacking you and trying to bring you down. When what they're asking for you is for us to be a community, and to stand for something and stand together. And that's down with black people and things that uplift support and support the black

community and not align yourself with somebody who is literally tearing down jobs, opportunities in the present and in the future for our community. The fact that you either don't get it or refuse to get it, it's like, what do you say to that? What do you say? I mean, should we be making our own boycott list in addition to businesses? Should there be, I mean,

every single person who has aligned themselves with Trump, the inauguration, or the parties before and after it have doubled down on what it is that they did. Yeah. So I think we should too. We're not looking with that. When I watch that video, to me is obvious that Snoop is hurt.

Right? I think he's hurt. I think it must... That's very nice for you to see it. Hold on, wait a second, though. It's not about... I'm just making an observation. It's hurt, right?

It must... And it must hurt. It must hurt to be as widely beloved as he has been for such a long time. And then to wake up one day and at least from a sizable portion of people or a significant portion of people not to be that loved.

Can I ask you a question really quickly that goes with what you're saying? Do you think, and I know I'm asking you to make an assumption here, do you think because he is so widely loved and he wasn't always, right? Do you think that he thought he was above it? I don't know. I'll be honest with you. I don't know.

There's no way from you. I don't know. I don't know. The only reason why I say that is because I've watched Snoop on social media for the last week, week and a half. And it does seem like there's been a sobering reality. I'm not prioritizing his feelings. It does seem like there's been a sobering reality that he is being painted as one of the villains now. And that's probably an unfamiliar place for him to be.

But, I mean, the reality of it is this. The reaction is because we love him. Like, we didn't expect Snoop to go from being our cool uncle to being our MAGA uncle. We didn't expect that. The reaction is because of the love. There are plenty of people. Soldier Boy being like one of them. Mike Tyson being another one of them.

There are plenty of black people who are MAGA and who, are aligned with Trump and his wing that we couldn't care less about. That it just doesn't matter. We just kind of take it with a grain of salt. It bothers us because of love. As far as talking about how black people are experts and tearing each other down,

I mean, that trope is annoying to me. And I think it's telling that when people are questioning a move that you've made, that you would then make a sweeping cultural generalization about all of them, rather than to have enough respect for those people to explain the reasons why you've had the 180 that you've had. It's not that we've changed, it's that he's changed. And rather than tell us what made that change happen, what brought it about, you just say, all we want to do is hate and tear each other down. No, in 16, you call people,

jigaboos. You call people Uncle Tom's. I wouldn't, and I know a lot of people who would never use that type of language to describe Snoop. I mean, I'm sure a lot of people have, but I wouldn't use that language to describe Snoop. But Snoop, when he felt away, did very directly use that language to describe people. And so we're wondering a lot of people, well, what changed? And what I also don't see coming from a lot of people that find themselves in the same position that Snoop is in right now is a discussion of

I guess policy, a discussion of what made youth now understand that this was the way to go. The post that was put up on Twitter was very direct. The post said, Snoop, welcome to Magna.

It didn't say, hey, I'm here at the crypto ball hanging out with Snoop. Snoop's at the crypto ball. Boom. It said Snoop, welcome to MAGA. Well, Snoop didn't come out.

What's at that? The guy who posted the clip. The guy who posted that, like one of the guys who was at it, like an 18-year-old Trump supporter. Okay. Who was at the thing? He said, Snoop, welcome to MAGA.

I didn't see Snoop say, hey, take that down. I'm not in MAGA. I'm just performing at this ball. I didn't see Snoop say, hey, I'm not MAGA. I'm just, there. I didn't see anything directed towards him. So that to me says, okay, well, Snoop is

MAGA. And there are a lot of people who are MAGA now and weren't MAGA before. And then the question would be why. Now, if there's so much love, right? If there's so much love, then I guess would you love us enough to make us understand this? And if we're not worth that, then is it really love because obviously there is a cultural standard or a cultural set of standards that has to exist between two people that are existing in cultural love together. So a whole bunch of things you could do that we would be like, all right, well, if you love so much, why are you doing that? And that's why when people ask questions about me working at TMZ or me saying this or me

saying that, I'm never too big to have the conversation because I'm telling you right now, I think and I hope that I comport myself in a way that I'm acting on not just behalf of what's best for me, but what's best for us. That is love. That's the love to me. And if those set of priorities change, I will communicate them. And if what I think is best for us changes, I will communicate that too. But to martyr yourself. Huh? Right. Well, I'm just saying though.

To martyr yourself in this position is unhelpful. What I would want to know, just me, I think a lot of people would want to know is what specifically about the magglewing of the Republican Party do you feel like it is not as pernicious? Forget about Donald Trump. Let's not make it about specifically Donald Trump. Let's make it about a set of policies that I think, are harmful and hurtful to black people, like we said before. You seem to have believed that before, or maybe it was just a Donald Trump thing, because there could be more education that happens here. Maybe you thought that Donald Trump was racist,

and then he let Harry L out and you go, he can't be racist. That was never what I was talking about. I think for a lot of people, that was never what they were talking about. It doesn't matter whether or not Donald Trump has black people over to dinner. It doesn't matter if he's surrounded by 80s. to 10 of his African Americans at all time, and they have a grand old, great old time. It doesn't matter how long his relationship

with Russell Simmons or any of these other guys' words. That doesn't matter. To me, the reason why I look at the mago-wing of the Republican Party the way that I do is because of a very, very direct set of policies and initiatives to me that are anti-black, and anti-poor and anti-woman. Right?

I look at that that way. And maybe Snoop doesn't look at it that way. But that's the conversation that would be had. Making us into a snarling group of feral political attack dogs is unhelpful at a time when people are actually asking, well, what happened? And that don't mean that you don't love Snoop. You spent so much time loving Snoop that you might not know how to not love him.

It's not about loving them. I don't call any black man a sellout on Uncle Tom. or anything like that. I don't believe in that. I don't believe in Coon, Sambo. Well, Uncle Tom is not the guy, right? I'm sorry, Sambo's the guy. I read the book.

So I don't believe in Sambo. I don't believe in Cun. I don't believe in those are fighting words to me. And I don't approach other black people with that type of energy unless I absolutely have to, right? I try not to. But what I'm saying is, in this case,

this is just wholly insufficient and it's a little bit arrogant. It's 100% arrogant. 100% defensive. I do think, to answer the question that I asked you, I do think that he has been beloved for so long because he truly hasn't always. He's been for loved for so, beloved for so long

by so many people, which is almost like a mascot, a caricature of himself at this point. I truly think that he thought he was above him, which comes with the arrogance of it all. I do find, I think all of your questions are valid and they should be answered. I do find with a lot of people, particularly not a lot of people, but just enough people to where I've noticed it, that do support Trump. When you ask them specific questions about policy and the whys, they really can't answer for you. they really can't get into it

or they're not as aware of some of the things that he's doing that would make them not want to. And I wonder if that's the case with Snoop. It may be a one issue thing. It may be the fact that he got that guy out of jail. Sorry, I can't remember his name. That might be the case.

But unlike you, seeing the way that Snoop has doubled down and the way that he's moved in regards to this election and with Trump and with Magna, with MAGA, I don't have any. of those questions. The only question

that I have, and I'll use Snoop's words here is, who's the jigiboo now? See, I think that's too much. Man, I tell you what. If you, if, I just like, look, that's why before, before now, I just believe that the jigaboo, Coon thing, all of that stuff,

that's... I'm using his words. I understand. I'm not to tell you, hey, look, that's, that's good. I, I personally think, that whatever I get what you're saying I agree with you Right

right right right But But So Yeah But what I guess my thing is It's not coming from

The only reason why I say what I say It's not coming from The want or the need To tear down a black man Or to not love black people It's coming from We sometimes make it seem like we're grabbing this stuff out of thin air.

Like we're doing all of this on vibes. And there certainly are some people that are. There certainly are some people that are just going with commonly held beliefs. It was a vibe to think Trump was a racist in 2016, less so 2020, not so much now for a lot of the people. It doesn't really have much to do with that. It has to do for me, because remember, I don't care that much about what you think about black people in your heart. I would hope that in your heart that you believe,

that all people were capable of all things and they were a set of circumstances away from being the best versions of themselves in most cases. I would hope that you believe that. But at the end of the day, what I care about more is that you don't do anything either wittingly or unwittingly

to support structures that make it harder for me to live and breathe in freedom and justice and equality. Right? If you could even say, I don't like black people, but there's a better society when they have jobs and clean water and clean energy and they can contribute to America, like we could agree to stay on the other side of a fence

if we could both agree that, like, freedom in this country is best for us. It's best for each one of us. I don't care about that. I don't care about how much you like me. So when I'm looking at all it is, I'm wondering what the beginning of the conversation is that would make him,

and maybe it's not important to have it or anybody else, understand why we not fucking with this. And it's not changing. There are very few serious people that are going to change what they think about somebody directly just because you like them. I didn't not like Donald Trump because Snoop didn't like him. And I'm not going to start liking Donald Trump

because Snoop likes them now. So being that that's how I am, I think a serious conversation is to be had, not cloaked in love and commitment and accept me how I am and all of that. That's a part of you. I'm never accepting. And it's a part of you to me that's such a gigantic thing that it's like, huh, there's going to be a curiosity there and not just a curiosity, a judgment and a criticism and a valid one.

If you don't give a fuck, then you don't give a fuck. But love ain't got much to do with it. I'm just being honest with you. You know what, you know how I feel. Should I double down? I don't know what you're about to say. Who's the chick of them now? Oh, my God.

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40 grams of protein. Made to keep up with whatever comes next. New sweetgreen wraps hit different. Order now at order. Dot sweetgreen.com. Should we switch to Raven Simone or Michael Jackson? Or do both? God damn.

I think they're both. Best smokers call? Sorry. Both. I think they're both quick. All right, cool. Raven appeared on the unplanned podcast and was talking about identity and race. And she's spoken on this before, but this is what she had to say.

I'm black and I'm an American and I have African descent in me. And if you test my blood, I also have American Indian. I also have a lot of other things. And for me to be placed in one box and just call me that for the ease of others, I think, is unfair. As a white person, you don't have to say that. Yeah. You know what I mean? You can say you're Irish, but you don't have to click on or check on a box on a piece of paper, Irish American. Oh, is that really what it is on it? Like when you're checking a piece of paper, it would come up as African American. It wouldn't just say black or white. It would. It'll say black African American.

As a white guy, I don't have to say, I'm a, what's your family from? Where are you from, Abby? Where's your family from? I'm an Irish American. Like no white people have to say that. Nobody white has to say anything like that. So even if you are from another country. Yeah. And your first. generation or immediately here, you still just get to check Caucasian white. We categorize ourselves here. A lot of people in the white community, it was like, we understand. And the black community is also starting to understand. You can speak your truth. This is a free country. You just have to be ready for explaining it or over explaining it and making sure that you say it at the right time. Yeah. What? Why are you laughing at the right time? What? Why are you laughing at?

Raven, man. Are you laughing at you? I'm laughing at you. Being like, yeah. What? I mean, at first, I was like, okay, she doesn't identify as African-American. She identifies as black. Right? First, I was like, okay. And then I heard this, Donnie. I'm tired of being labeled. I'm an American. I'm not an African-American. I'm an American. Oh, girl, don't set up to Twitter on fire. I'm sorry. I mean, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. What did you just say? Stop, stop, stop the tape right now. Okay.

I will say this. What? I mean, I don't know where my roots go to. I don't know how far back they go. I can't go on, you know, I don't know how far back, and I don't know what country in Africa I'm from. But I do know that my roots are in Louisiana. I'm an American, and that's a colorless person

because we're all people. I have lots of things running through my veins. So then I thought, damn it, now I can't give her back. because that is a clip which she was on an Oprah show where are they now especially that Oprah was doing

and so she defines herself as colorless so I couldn't give her what I was going to give her in the first clip I just will never understand why people

black people the ones who fit into the box that Raven fits into fight so hard against being identified as black being identified as something. I just don't have that in me because,

and we talked about this so many times, and Raven's not the first and she won't be the last and I think she ain't got no color. But I just don't understand or won't understand how there's not pride. And maybe you don't know that, I don't know my history all the way back. I can only go back so far.

but there is a sense of pride with being black in what that represents and what that stands for. And I just feel sorry for people who are so quick to want to deny that to either be accepted or not accepted by a certain group of people. And I think it's sad. And when I listen to things like this,

this is sad to me. I always wonder about the distinctions that people are willing to make. because American is as arbitrary as race. Being American is as arbitrary as race to me. Absolutely. Like American is a country. It's lines that we've,

people talk about what we've made up. We've made up everything. We made up the word tree. The tree exists. We made up the name. We made up America. We made it up. and

or they made it up we made it up we made it up based upon all these ideas that we had and put the ideas together in America we drew borders that didn't really don't really exist right like really

like I can make an argument that El Paso and Juarez are the same place right? You know what I'm saying? Like you just you draw a line and you say don't pass it I can make an argument

that Louisiana tech we made all of it up so what you choose to identify is is a set of priorities to me and I would just ask anybody in that situation what makes being American

better than being black like what why is American something that supersedes blackness right? Is that a choice of Thomas Jefferson over W.E.B. Dubois is that a choice

over George Washington over Dr. King is that a choice of any number of things that would be considered to be because all those things are American as well

that are American over being black American. What's the deal? You know? So like what's like why? If you're not, if you said I'm a human being and I'm not anything.

I'm not an American. I'm just a human being. I'm like, okay, cool. but I often see people not doing that. Often people say, hey, don't call me black. I'm an American. Don't call me this. I'm an American.

Well, why? Why? You know what I'm saying? So, like, what's the deal? What I would ask, like, Raven? It's like they hope that they're not. It's like, even when you hear Raven talk, whether it's the clip on the podcast

or the clip with Oprah back in the day, she's like, I'm an American because I was born in America, right? Like that is something I know and I can identify. I know I'm a Louisiana, Louisiana. Whatever. Because she knows that's what she comes from, right? So she can pinpoint those two things. But like, you also know you're black.

You might not know the full, you might not know, because that's what she goes on to say, well, I don't know where in Africa I'm from. She says that in one of those two clips. But you know you're black. And it's almost like, what she says is I don't know where in Africa I'm from, but I know I come from a lot of things. I come from Native American. I made up a lot of things.

And it's almost like you wish and you hope. How can you say that you come from all those things but then say that you have no color? There seems to be this desperation of so wanting to distance themselves or dilute their blackness. that is where I get lost and I don't understand. You can clearly see that you are also black. You can look at your parents, you can look at your grandparents and see that you are rooted in blackness.

Where that blackness comes from, maybe you don't know, but you know you're black. Yeah. Well, intellectually, it's all arbitrate, right? Intellectually, there is no Louisiana. Like, there is no Baton Rouge, there is no nothing, There's no nothing. We made up all of, we made up. Louisiana used to be for the French. They sold it to us. It's we name it. We put,

intellectually, in terms of all of this stuff, it all is just a bunch of things that we've made up. Now, if you want to get rid of them, get rid of them. That's fine. I guess my curiosity comes from which things you want to keep and which things you don't. And I'll tell you why. I personally think, I don't know, never had a conversation with Raven. But being an American or identifying as an American, it seems to grant you limitless potential in the world. An American can do anything. There are people that are selling out shows in other countries as pop stars and all kinds of things,

and nobody really looks at them as anything special if they can't come over here and be recognized when they go to Chipotle. Like, it's not even a big deal. Robbie Williams, the movie Better Man, where he plays a monkey version of himself. It's a great movie. I saw it.

He's a gigantic star in the UK and around the world, right? Gigantic star from Group, the Whole Deal. Movie flopped in America because Americans don't know who he is. So there is a sense that being a big deal here in American or being an American is such a gigantic thing that it's limitless. Then there's a thought that blackness or being black is inherently limiting. That you're limiting yourself. That there's a cultural ceiling.

If you say, yes, I am black. If you say I made a black movie. If you say I am in a black relationship. If you say these things are black, that that in it of itself is so limiting that people go, I don't just call me black, call me an American. That is, even if she's not doing it on purpose, putting baby in the corner, putting black baby in the corner.

It's just doing that. And I think that's worth investigating. Like, I think that's worth asking questions about. Yeah, I think that's worth investigating. I think that's worth asking questions about it. It's her business. But I'm like, if you don't want to be. No, it's our business now because she put it out there.

By the way, and just there is also just another thing is we just fundamentally don't trust people who don't want to be us. And that's not just black people. That's any group of people. That's like American. I don't want to be American. If you say right now, I don't want to be American. Fuck America, whatever. People are going to be like, are you about to sell us out to the Russians to the Chinese?

Like, people are going to ask that question. Yeah. I just, I have no patience today. And I don't have any patience for this topic or for a Raven to jump. I'm grew. No, I'm not. I'm using people's words against them, like using their words that they use.

But I don't feel like jumping through hoops for Raven in one way, identify herself and then not. Because she also talks about her identity as far as being queer. And as she says, I don't want labels. I don't want identity. But you want to be American. That's an identity. Just say you don't want to be black.

I could accept that so much better. Just say, I don't want to be identified as black. I don't want to be black. You're not interested in. a more nuanced deconstruction of the whole thing. You don't think that's interesting. You don't get it. I don't think it's that deep.

Can I be really honest with you? I don't. I think that there's a lot of self-hatred that comes with going through hoops to not identify what you look like in the mirror or what's so clearly evident. There's no confusion. She got black parents.

I just don't, I just don't have it in me. Why do you say she's from Louisiana? She's from Atlanta. She said that. She said that her roots. go to Louisiana. So maybe she's not from there, but she says that in one of the clips.

I'm using her words. All I'm doing is using people's words. She says that her roots go to Louisiana. So maybe her parents are from there. At the age of two, she worked with Ford models, and she appeared in ads for Ritz Crackers. Let's see.

Do we want to do Columbia and Trump, or do we want to do Michael Jackson? I have a question for you. Rachel, I want to ask you a question. Yes. I'll ask you a question. Do you believe in American supremacy? In what way?

Like with other countries? Okay, so do you believe that I saw, okay, so Trump goes back and forth with the Colombian president. And if you guys don't know what happened, Trump is trying to repatriate people back to Colombia. some of the people that have been part of the ice crackdowns, put them on a plane, sent them back to Columbia. Columbia would, no, we're not accepting the people.

Trump then went, okay, if you're not accepting the people, 25% tariffs on all Colombian incoming goods, which we raised up to 50% one week. That stresses the American buyer, coffee, banana, stuff like that, of course. But then it also would really have direct economic effects on Colombia. They jostle back and forth

and they come to an agreement where the Colombians pretty much back down. Because they're not really in a position to have a prolonged trade war with the United States. Now there might be other nations that don't do this. The Colombians, if you look at it, and I'm

giving you guys broad strokes, the Colombians, if you look at it, will probably say, hey, we stood up for ourselves and the Americans would probably say, hey, we told Columbia that if they didn't take these people, that they would suffer economic consequences, and eventually they decide to take the people. Columbia's going to take them. Can I just say something?

I thought the one asked that, I thought the only ask that the Colombians had is that they said that they were willing to take them back, but they needed to treat them like civilians. They chained them and put them on military planes. They said bring them back on passenger commercial planes and treat them like civilians, which I believed that is the agreement that they came to.

That is true. The Americans did that. Yeah. So to answer your question, if that's the only thing we're basing off of, the Americans did that. They never were like, we don't want them at all. They brought them back in a civilized way, and they welcomed them. So did Columbia back down? Or did America just agree to what they asked for?

Very fair point. A migrant is not a criminal. It must be treated with the dignity that a human being deserves. That's why I returned the U.S. military planes that were carrying Colombian migrants and civilian planes without being treated like criminals. hours and hours, the terrorists will be held off. They came to a deal. President Trump will continue to officially protect our nation's sovereignty. He expects all of the nations in the world to fully cooperate

in accepting the deportation of their citizens legally present in the United States. So you're right in terms of, I don't think that these will be military planes that will be going back. I think the president of Columbia has volunteered planes, and those planes will be used. and then the people will be treated, the Colombian people will be treated with respect. So everybody is going to accept the win. I'm asking you a question based upon something I saw, somebody tweeted, it was a MAGA Republican of some note.

And they said, under President Trump, other nations will bow down to America again. And that got me to thinking about the idea of global American supremacy and how important that is to the average American. How important do you think it is to the average American to people that people around the world bow down to America? Is that important to you?

Sorry to interrupt. No, I don't think that that's important. I think what's important is what's happening right here within our own country, which is what was the biggest issue that people voted on or what was the biggest issue that people voted on in this prior election. I do not think, I think that, don't get me wrong, there's definitely a sector of people who care

and want to be American, the most powerful country in the world. But I think your average American just wants to be able to provide, survive, be healthy, not have to worry about grocery. gas, health care, those are their concerns. That's what I believe. Do you agree or disagree? I don't think so. Interesting.

The average American is concerned about that. I think that this is a part of it. That while we talk about things that separate us in this country, based upon social, economic, differences, racial differences, even class differences. I think the one thing

that the American propaganda machine does better than anything else is convince Americans that the world order is better off if America, is economically, militarily, and socially dominant over everyone else. And I think before, I think people will make sacrifices in their own lives to uphold that.

And I think that they believe that in some way, things will be better for them if American can dominate and put people under their thumb worldwide. I've never ever thought about, you know, I've never ever thought about whether or not I care if America is the dominating force around the world. I've never thought about that. But I think that there's a lot of parts of me that don't think about that consciously because I assume that. I assume that America's the dominating force around the world. I assume it. And I think that if you were to ask people, it's got to be.

People are willing to pay money to, they're willing to fund the Defense Department, right? In grandiose ways because they think that military dominance in some way is one of the things that keeps America on top. There's so many things that are against their daily lives that really only reinforce the idea that America is the biggest, baddest motherfucker in the world. They make so many decisions based around that to me. I don't know. I don't think so. Interesting. I think that if you ask someone if you could have these things, you know, like if the

American economy could be better, but that means we're not the most dominant force, I think people would be like, okay. I really do. Think about. I don't even think people realize the things that you're saying. I think people just want to I don't think people in the same way that you don't think about it and maybe it is because of the same reason

maybe because you assume that. I don't even know if I necessarily assume that about us. I really don't. I just... I think that, and the last thing I'll say about it, I think that there is, part of this comes to, part of this has to do with

how people feel like other nations will act against America if America is vulnerable. But vulnerable doesn't mean that there's a difference. I think there's a difference. I'm not saying we have to be vulnerable. Okay.

Let me connect the thought. So we go around and we say, hey, if we can't nuke everybody, then they will nuke us. If we can't dominate everyone, then they will dominate us. If we can't control everything, then they will control us.

Joe Biden back in the 80s said that, if Israel didn't exist, we would have to create an Israel. Why would we have to create a Israel? Because we would have to create a country, a gigantic, well, not a gigantic country, but an American ally right there in that region to be able to provide intelligence and a deterrent from the other countries in that region that might have interests that don't align with ours.

And that's very important. And when you talk to people now, you say, well, I can't do anything without Israel, though, got to have Israel. If they don't have Israel, then what are those countries going to do? Well, they're going to do whatever they want. Right. You know what I mean? But we assume that our vulnerability comes from some kind of virtue because we want to be free.

We want to be this because we have this, we have that. And so the only way to maintain our standing in the world is to be the big swinging dick of the world that says fuck with us if you want. I think a lot of people would rather have a situation whether or where they don't have to cooperate with other nations

and they can just dictate to them. Because I think that that type of dominance is it's lauded in almost everything that we do. Like sports. It's just like I watch the guy

from Buffalo, carry a guard from Kansas City, and place him in Patrick Mahomes' lap. And I was like, God, damn, that's what I'm talking about. He just fucked right over, watching people get dunked on, both physically and mentally. It's like, ooh. I think domination is a big part of the American propaganda machine. Dominate each other, but we more than need.

thing want to package American dominance and put it out there. And that's the kind of thing where situations like Columbia, where they fill people up with this dickhead momentum because they say, look at us, fucking imposing ourselves on people again.

Yeah. And they really didn't. This is what Eric Trump said, and it's been taken down within 20 minutes. Any and all who dared to defy the American golden age, heed this warning. You will We'll lose.

To the line, or we will run you down. The gloves are off, and we're not playing around this time. For now, tariffs, but trust me, we can and we will do so much worse. See? That's coming from Eric. He sounds like Grandma Tarkin. Eric, a D-E-I-Hire. Yeah, a fucking legacy.

Boy, boy, that's so funny to me, bro. Once again, about Dominus, man. If you were somewhere in Eric Trump was popping shit, you'll smack the shit out of Aaron Trump, man. Like, Eric Trump. Like, it's like, it's crazy. Junior, too. Michael Jackson vial picking trouble.

Don't care. You know? No, no, no. I don't think they should do this movie. I think this is a bad idea. I think this is so bad. This is a sign They should keep this morning

So I'll tell you this. They already have to rewrite the shit. Oscar announcements, Oscar nominations came out. We didn't get into it. Any surprises, Rachel? No. No, I feel like there was one, but I can't think of it

when I was looking at the snubs. But keep going. Yeah. So look. Oh, Sing Sing. Sing. It didn't get, it didn't get Was it Best Picture?

I feel like Sing Sing did get nominated for Best Picture. Did it? Then it's director. There's something Sing Sing didn't get. Let's see, Sing, Sing. Yeah, it didn't get Best Picture, but Combin Domingo got a best actor. Yeah, Coleman the Man right now.

Yeah, I don't know. I think the Michael Jackson movie has such a ridiculous, emotional weight on it. I just don't see how they're going to do it without really causing a ruckus. But they're taking it seriously. I want to do something.

Before we go, I want to put something. I want to do a black and brown sit down. I want to do a very special episode of higher learning. You probably should. Like the, it's just like the summit of the sexes. Instead, though, it's black people and brown people all sitting down and talking. and because why are you looking at me like this? I'm talking about what?

Because, you know, you've kind of been like, that's on y'all. It is on them. So what would we be talking about? Would we be working together? Because that's not the sentiments you've been giving. Well, so because I think that I need to be educated. I think that I've talked to some people,

people, I haven't changed the way that I'll look at stuff, but I do think that there is, it will be one thing if it's hands off, but it's not coming across as hands off. It's not coming across as you guys work in your communities and we'll work in our communities because we're not quite voting on the same thing. It's not coming off like that. It's coming off as fuck you guys. When I say fuck you guys, I don't mean, uh, fuck you guys as in we're not thinking about you guys. It's coming across as like slurs and wishing the poorest for each other. It's like, it's coming across as I hope that you fail. And I hope that you fail. And I hope that you fail. And going back, digging up old people from the past that were like, we don't care what happens to black people. And then going back up and giving people today and going,

hey, we don't care what happens to Latino, Mexican people or whatever. And I don't think that I have any. animus. I don't have any animus for Latino people. I don't have any animus for Mexican people. I don't hope that they don't succeed. I don't hope that things go wrong. I don't, I'm not like, hey, I hope things go bad for you. It's just it starts to get to a situation to where, I guess for me, it's like there are some things in terms of voting blocks because we spend a lot of time in the black community hand-wringing over what our voting block is voting for and supporting. what are people are voting for and supporting?

How many people are supporting policies that are at cross purposes with what we think development and advancement are? We haven't spent a lot of time talking about that. And I guess the question for me would be in the Latino community is a broad statement, but in the Latino community, do those same conversations happen? Because the conversations of look what's happening in neighborhoods because of ice raids or because of a.

other situations like that, those conversations happening, but was there a robust conversation happening about how many people were embracing the MAGA movement? How many people were embracing it? And I think that's because before you would want me to advocate

and do all of that, I would be like, well, are you guys having these conversations? But I'm not hoping that bad shit happens to brown people. Like, that's absurd. I would imagine that they are and I would imagine, and I'm down for this, but I would imagine in the same way that we have very prominent people who are separate othering themselves from the black community

and are aligning themselves with MAGA. And in doing that, they are not, they're going against the community and the things and the policy and aligning themselves with the policies that hurt us. You know, we're not being deported, but our rights are being stripped away. I would imagine that that's what happens within their community and they're having those conversations as well. You have Latinos who are othering themselves and

I've seen it firsthand. There, I, I came over here like, like I did it one way. You should too. They other themselves. Like I... Who are you talking about? Like if you don't come over here a certain way, then you

should go back. And I think that's an issue within their community rather than coming together and figuring it how people can become legal and citizens and all of that. So I would imagine that they have some of the same uphill battles that we fight against our own as well. So I think it's worth a conversation. We all get together.

We talk. Black and brown sit down. Think about just for the community too. Okay. Black and brown sit down. Have a conversation. We talk about it. And, you know, it's not necessarily.

about getting on the same page is about understanding that all these things are kind of complicated. We don't feel supported and we don't feel like and just sit at the table. Yeah.

You got to identify as black or brown. There you go. Rachel put down to the violence. You're not fucking with y'all. Rachel's been radicalized. Okay? And she's not fucking with y'all no more.

It's over. Take thing caps off and do not stop learning. I got all of my stuff back. Thank you to the people at T. for helping me get my laptop and my MacBook back. Thank you guys. TSA over at LAX. We appreciate you guys.

I'm Van Lathen, Jr. And I'm Rachel Lamon, Lindsay. Bye, guys.