Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Chud the Builder Shot, and SEC Boycott? Plus, Tiffany D. Cross on Womanhood

Episode Date: May 15, 2026

Van and Rachel react to Jason Lee and Peter Rosenberg’s "culture vulture" conversation and the AKA’s being upset with Rachel, before discussing Chud the Builder's shooting and arrest and calls for student-athletes to boycott SEC schools. Then author Tiffany D. Cross joins to talk about her new book, ‘Love, Me: A Letter to Black Women in a Toxic Country, Career, and Relationship.’ (0:00) Intro (13:47) Jason Lee, Peter Rosenberg and culture vulture accusations (27:12) AKA Sorority Inc. backlash (35:29) Chud the Builder shooting (45:57) SEC boycott (1:02:10) Tiffany D. Cross joins the show (1:07:56) What to love about being a Black woman (1:35:49) Black and interracial love (1:59:19) Scott Jennings and platforming conservatives Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Tiffany D. Cross Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Jade Whaley Social Producer: Bernard Moore Video Supervision: Chris Thomas and Jacob Cornett Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Higher Learning is on. It is I Van Lathen, Jr. And it's me, Rachel Lenton. Okay, so first of all, I got a comment on this. You got the TLC Creep thing going on right now. Is that what it's given?

Yeah. No, no, no, no. This is, is this creep? Or is it? Yeah, I guess it's creep. I was thinking Red Light Special for some reason. You think of Red Light Special? Yeah.

Yeah, it's creepy. But nobody had on black. Because it was... No, they did. It was red. It was red. Red, blue. Maybe it was black.

Let me try to think about it from memory. Oh, gray. T-Bos had red, left eye had blue. No, that's not right. Chili had. Anybody that's listening right now off the top of your head, can you remember the colors of the silk pajamas or silk outfits that were being worn in the creep video? The internet's not working, so I'm not cheating.

I think chili had the gray. Chili had gray? Like the iced gray. I think left eye was in the red and T-Boss was in the blue. Do you guys have any idea, Z corner, what we're talking about right now? Yes, of course. Just making sure, guys. Just making sure because every once in a while, like with the Gen Zers, you ask them something

and they have no clue what the fuck you're talking about, even though to you it's a iconic. It'd be different spaces, areas, all that, but we love creep. We love TLC. Okay. Okay. They switch it up. So I was correct. Okay.

T-Boss is in the blue, left eyes in the red, chili's in the gray. But here, Chili's in pink. Okay. So she switches it up, but. Okay. Nobody had the black on, yeah. No black. Okay.

So, yeah. Okay. I mean, back in my day, it was like, everyone was like, which one was, Are you left eye, are you chilly, are you T-Bos and you're on the playground? Which one were you? I was left-eye always. Yeah, my sister was left-eye. And then we found out why later on.

Why? Ebony, I'm so sorry. That's crazy. Ebony, I'm so sorry. I feel like Ebony is always catching strays on this podcast. And I just want you to know, it's not me. Ebony, Ebony got to like 12 or 13 or whatever. And, you know, she was wearing the loose fitting pants with the Thames and the hat, the whole

TLC thing and I was like, huh, it's a TLC phase. Wasn't a TLC phase. It was a life decision. It was who she was. They don't all dress like that. Not, no, they don't all, come on, come on guys. Okay. I'm not saying.

But I see what you're saying. You're saying she wasn't like. I think she saw that. I get you. You know? And then she, I give, I give Ebony credit for this. Ebony, beautiful, amazing soul, when Ebony finally

like lived inside of her truth, done. And I don't know if she wasn't living inside of her truth, but you know, she did date guys on it all, but when she was done, fuck you. Get the fuck off my shit. Like, fuck you. Having to feel like you can't be your full self for whatever reason, you are definitely entitled to that.

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One of your agreement, paperless billing and auto pay. with bank account required. Taxes and fees extra. Can I tell you something that happened to me last night? What happened? Last night, I'm reading. We have a guest coming on today. And there's a movie on,

and I hear a scream. So I'm assuming it's coming from the movie. And then I hear another scream. And, like, the person next to me goes, did you hear that? And I go, I thought that was the movie. And then you hear, please help me. It's a woman's voice.

Please, please help me. Please help. And I was like, oh my God, what is it? And like that person was about to run outside. I was like, uh-uh, not before you grab a weapon. You don't know what's going on. And you just hear a dog just barking, barking like crazy. So I'm like, I'm calling 911.

So I call 911 and I'm like, there's a woman screaming for help. There's a woman screaming for help. They're like, where is it? I'm like, it's next door. I think it's my neighbor. I'm telling the address. I'm giving her name. And I'm like trying to call her.

Like it, side note took forever to not for a time I want to pick up. And I'm calling her. It's going straight to voicemail. I'm freaking out. Grab a weapon. Go outside. And there's a woman sitting there who's not my neighbor who's sitting on the curb in my neighbor's house.

And there's a car like diagonal in the street with the doors open. And she's holding her dogs. Actually, before that, the person with me goes, because I'm like, look through the windows, look through the windows. Like, we can see the street. And he's like, do you see that coyote right there? And I was like, no, I didn't. And then I look again and I see the coyote.

So then we go outside. There's a woman who I'm not familiar with her two dogs. And I'm like, are you okay? And I yell out my neighbor's name. And she was like, yeah, I'm outside too. I'm fine. The stranger's sitting there holding their dogs. And she's like, a coyote came two inches of my, like me.

So she making herself bigger and screaming wasn't even deterring the coyote. He was chasing her. This is like 11 o'clock at night, which also I'm like walking your dog, a woman by yourself, two dogs, 11 at night. We have a big coyote problem in the neighborhood. I think there's a couple of dens in the neighborhood. And, you know, the coyote I didn't see, then there's a man walking down the street. And I guess the coyote was going to bite her. And this good Samaritan happened to be on the street and swerved his car over. And that deterred the coyote from running away. But the woman ran up to my neighbor's house. And I was, was pulling the door open, which I'm like, what would I have done?

She was, like, trying to get in the house screaming for help. Anyways, the cops came, ambulance came, because the woman couldn't breathe because she was so terrifying. Right. And, I mean, I really didn't sleep after that. I didn't sleep after the coyote. I mean, it was just like a terrifying. And then, like, you always wonder, what would you do in those situations? Like, after I'll call 911, every scenario went through my head.

I'm like, is my neighbor? Is it somebody, you know, attacking my neighbor? Is she being robbed? You know, she's a single woman too So we kind of like look out for each other She's a single woman with the kid And it just was like Do you run outside

Do you just like what do you do in that situation I mean you get the weapon And then you go I mean do you have the blammer You get the weapon and then you go Yeah I mean that's what I got I'm not Two things

So number one I do as people know that Come to the house I have the blammer We from this Several blambers Blam, Blam, Blam. At one time, I was going to get rid of it,

but things got too crazy. Okay, so, also, if you have the blammer, just know that, say this all the time, you're safer fleeing. You're always safer fleeing. Grab the gun so that you can flee safely.

You're safer fleeing. In this situation, I'm almost 1,000% Team Coyote. Without a doubt, I'm Team Coyote. I mean, we're in the, coyote's habitat. I get that.

We've moved into their, so I'm, you know, the coyote, just be on the lookout. Keep your head on the swimming. I didn't say harm the coyote, but my,

but this coyote apparently, because I can't even imagine. Because they're getting bolder. Yeah, she was like, it's, because I see coyotes taking leisurely walks,

like their afternoon walk up and down my street, like it's nothing. I've been very fortunate. Like, I now have like an air horn, a deterrent spray. Get the spray.

Because it's so, rampant in the neighborhood. I'm not necessarily worried about copper. It's just more a brownie and he's a maniac so he would jump after them. But it just was such a, I get what you're saying about the coyote, but also like this woman was about to apparently get attacked to where she was trying to run into neighbor's houses. Then another neighbor across the street was like, like 15 minutes after the screams comes out all leisurely. He was like, everything okay? And I'm like, yeah, everything's fine now. And I explained to him what happened. I'm like, nobody got bit.

And then he goes, but are the dogs okay? It's important. And I'm like, but this woman is here. He could care less about the woman getting attacked. He was like, are the dogs okay? And I was like, yeah, they're fine. Thanks. Have a good night.

Well, the thing that is normally, I mean, you seem to have a set of bold coyote. Your coyotes seem to be crimson. You have bold coyotes. Coyotes rep in the set neighborhood coyotes. Neighborhood coyotes seems like you have because they organize. and they're doing it. But normally the thing that is, you know, in most danger

in the coyote situation, are the small dogs. Yeah, the dogs that are small. It's just two smaller dogs. So you have a bigger dog, the coyote, unless it's in a pack, a couple of coyotes normally lead a dog alone. But if you have smaller dogs,

the coyotes get the dog, can kill the dog. The coyotes will do. Are you afraid of the coyotes in your neighborhood? You're afraid that they've... I am afraid of... They're organized? I'm afraid of...

them getting my dog, my little dog. Because also, they sit, I think I've told you this off mic, they sit across the street. Like I've seen, now this will be the fourth time that I've seen a coyote in the last six weeks sitting across the street from my house on the sidewalk looking at my house. Your house specifically?

It's sitting there staring right at it. That's the fourth time. One time I forgot to close the gate and the coyote came in the yard, heard it barking, yipping, yipping. One time I was on the phone with Kalika. And I go, that's either a baby or a coyote. And I went outside.

That's either what? A baby. It was the way it was yipping. Oh, the yipping. I thought you looked at it and thought baby or coyote. It was the way it was yipping. I was on the phone with Kalika and I walked outside and I go, there's a coyote. And I go, and it's sitting across the street just looking dead at me.

I think people don't understand how we live with the coyote here in L.A. I don't think people get it. But I have lived in my neighborhood for four years. This is the first time in four years, yeah, yeah, that I have seen a coyote and multiple times. It's like we're seeing them every week now. Yeah, the fires. Yeah, they said it was the fires for sure.

Well, look, everyone is very scary, scary for rage, you know, make sure you have something. You have, I don't know, remember, but see, now listen, I don't hate to go back to stuff. I hate to go back to stuff and pull up old shit. Do you remember back when we first were talking a lot about Mountain Line, by the way, shout out to Beth Pratt. She invited me to come and look at different things involving nature around Los Angeles.

I'm going to go to do that. And I'm also going to go down to San Diego with Dolphin Dom and go well watching. I want to do that. We're going well watching. You have to come. I actually really want to do it. We're going well watching. We're going to go.

Okay. We're going. That's the thing that's happening. So shout out to them. But, you know, when we were talking about the way we got on mountain lines, You say you were going hiking. Yeah. And I asked you if you brought a stick.

Yeah, you did. So that you can fend off Mountain Lion in case he attacks. Okay? And you were like, I don't need that. I think that we've been here for a long enough time to know two things. Number one, you do need the Mountain Lion stick. You do. You do need it.

And number two, you might now need a small coyote sword as well. I looked it up. I looked up, I looked up machetes. And I'm not even kidding. Not even kidding. I'll show you my Amazon search right now. I looked up machetes and I looked up like sticks but they didn't have good like a good stick. That's when I went down the machete route.

No, no, no, no. I looked up. You have ruined hiking for me, by the way. I may have gone, been hiking maybe five times since you started it because I am so paranoid now. And then everyone's like, oh, by the time you see them, it's too late or whatever. It's when you don't see them. It just got in my head. I'm so paranoid that I'm like,

there's other ways to exercise. But you have ruined the hiking experience for me, which is an L.A. staple out here. Look, the stick is not going to save your life. It's just going to give you a chance. A chance. A chance. If the Mount Lion.

If the Mountain Lion wants you gone, you're gone. The Mount Lion is a predator that over thousands of years has built up the ability to kill. If you want you gone, you're gone. But they're normally nice, or I guess they're not nice. We don't see them. We like the mountain lion.

I love mountain lions. So here's Beth right here. Private Tour of Wildlife Crossing. I'm going to go have the private tour of the Wildlife Crossing. It's great. Okay, we have a late-breaking piece of video that it's not important in any way, shape, or form. But it's very interesting,

because it's an interesting conversation, and it's also fiery content. This is Jason Lee from Hollywood Unlocked. We've had Jason Lee on the podcast before. This is Peter Rosenberg from the Ebro Laura Rosenberg show, formerly of Hot 97. We've had Rosenberg, I think, on the show before. We have had Rosenberg. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Arguing about the fact that Jason Lee on drink champs called Rosenberg a culture vulture. I think this is an interesting conversation for a couple of reasons. Donnie, could you go ahead and cue that up? You should ask your friend, ASAP Rocky, what he feels about Peter Rosenberg. Ask him if he's a culture vulture or if he helped make his career. And he will say, oh, Rosenberg.

Rosenberg is the guy who took my songs, clean them up for radio play and gave them to other DJs so he could play my music. So all I'm trying to say is to me, being a culture vulture is taking from the culture, not giving back. I have gotten things from hip-hop culture.

It's helped make my life, and I'm incredibly grateful. But I have always and always will prioritize giving back to that culture, helping uplift other people, people of color specifically. That will always be a part of my life. So when you just lacklust to throw out culture vulture, yeah, man, on a big platform like drink champs and you have a big voice. And by the way, you're a very entertaining, charismatic talker. It sounds really good. Yeah, that's some hurtful shit to say about someone.

That's not who I am. Okay. So I'm going to just say this. I'll be with Rocky tonight at his son's fourth birthday, and I'm going to tell him to his face that I don't give a shit what his opinion is about his support for you, your support for him, what he's done for you,

what you've done for him. Because me and Rocky talk about Rihanna. We talk about his children. We talk about how proud he is of me running for office and his love for Harlem and helping kids. We don't talk about you or anybody else. I didn't interrupt you, so let me. You're saying bullshit.

Wait, do you want me? I just said meaningful content. Wait, wait, wait. You're talking bullshit. I'm not me to respond or you're right now you're just showing off about your being friends of Rocky. I don't give a shit. No, no, no, you told me, you, you invited me.

And I'm giving you, I just gave you facts. You're giving me bullshit. You invited me to talk to my friend about you. And I'm telling you that I'm not going to do that because his opinion of you does not matter to me. Here's what I'm saying to you, and I'm not saying it on social media, I'm not saying on drink champs. I'm saying it to you on your show.

Okay. That I said this about our mayor, where I'm the vice mayor, she's the mayor. She appointed me. I said they love our penises, not our policies. I love that you. you love hip hop. I love that you've done a lot for hip hop. I love that you put a lot of people on. I love that you believe that you're the reason why A'sat Rott. Didn't say that. Whatever you said. I believe and I believe you've done a lot from what I've talked to Dore and other people about

hip hop. Hot 97, what y'all did over there was great. What you're doing here is great. What he's doing at Apple is great. What you're doing on your own is great. None of that. I'm not taking any legitimacy away from the work that you've done. I'm talking about when niggas like George Floyd are dying, that's the real shit that man is too me. Yeah, I speak out about that too. Hold on. Great. No, no, I speak out about that always have. Okay, but guess what? Spoke out about LGBT rights. Great. But you ain't suck dick and you ain't black. And so you know what? So I can't contribute. Let me tell you. So I can't contribute. So you'll never really know. That's great. You'll never really know. If you want to draw lines,

if you want to draw lines with allies over the fact that I'm not black or I haven't, quote, suck dick. Yeah. But you don't know that I have stood up. You don't know that I have risked my livelihood. I risked my livelihood wearing a Black Lives Matter on live television, getting in trouble with bosses standing up. What groups have you stood up for that you're not related to? Listen, and I got shot and I now run the city whose streets I used to write. And by the way, I think it's very cool. But yet you keep bringing out measurements.

This is for your clip farmers that need this moment. I don't really care about all of your resume of all the things you've done. So then why do you say anything? Here's a deal. Because I said there and I'll say now, I think you're a culture vulture. First of all, I just want to say something. I thought that after there was a, so there was a moment. Bernard knows what I'm about to say.

There was a moment where Rosenberg goes, because I don't quote, suck dick, but you don't know that I have, I was about to say, whoa, wow. But he didn't. That's not what he said, but think about what a comeback, that would have been.

Think about if someone, if he would have said that to him, and Rosenberg would have went, you know what? You don't even know. I have, in fact, suck dick. See? You don't know everything.

Just for one second, it's very funny. All right, what do you think about that? I didn't hear what Jason Lee said on drink champs. How long ago was that? I don't remember. But he said that he thought Rosenberg was a culture vulture. Has he ever explained how? Because that, look, both Jason Lee and Peter Rosenberg have been on the show.

Yes. Both friends of the show. So my thing is, all right, you make this statement. Why do you feel that he is a culture vulture? Now, in this clip, all I'm getting is that he says, well, you know, you're not, queer and you're not black, so you'll never really know. I think that you're equating things that aren't the same, right? That is true. Peter Rosenberg would say that. I'm not queer and I am not black, but that doesn't make you a culture vulture. He is right. A culture vulture is somebody who

takes from the culture and tries to make it their own. When you did your whole thing about white vacationers, those are examples to me of culture vultures. They took used it to their benefit and then when it didn't benefit them anymore or they could use it for a better purpose for whatever reason, they did. That's a culture vulture. I would not in any way categorize Peter Rosenberg

by that. That's why I say, well, does Jason Lee have more examples? Because Peter's right. He has spoken out about issues when Jason's like, okay, well, it's not that. It's speaking out basically when they're injustices. And he's like, well, I have done that. Yeah.

I've used my platform. I've compromised, you know, my, my, I guess, profession or personal brand because I do stand with or fight for social justice when it comes to the black and queer community. So to me, Peter Rosenberg acknowledges that he's not of the culture, but definitely has an affinity, says what it means to him, talks about it, like gives his time, gives back. to it in certain ways, but in no way does he try to say, well, because I've done all of this, I am this now. I am a part of this because I've paid my dues. I've researched. I have these friends or whatever it may be. So in no way can, in what world can you deem him a culture vulture? You might not like the fact that he is so close to it, but that still doesn't make him a culture vulture. I think there are probably two different conversations that are happening here.

I think so too. So the one conversation is, first of all, which culture are we talking about? If we're talking about hip hop culture, then there are a lot of hip hop heads who will tell you, even though hip hop is a creation of black culture, which I certainly believe to be black and Latino culture, that hip hop culture is something that anyone can be a part of. Right? So anyone can be a part of hip hop culture. And like if you talk to some of the people that I'll talk to, they're on the ground early on. And throughout the rise of hip hop culture, they tell you about the Latinos, the white people, all different types of people. all different types of people, Asian people that were a part of hip hop culture

and some would say really helped the rise of it. As a matter of fact, when I went to Sway's event, Sway had an event, the Fort of Culture event, like the event was very diverse, like very diverse.

Obviously, hip hop is black music, but that event was very, very diverse when you looked at all the breakers and the graffiti artists and all that stuff, right? So if you're talking about hip hop culture, then I guess Rosenberg's entry or plays into hip hop culture isn't that controversial

if you look at the whole history of it. If you're talking about black culture, it's a different thing. And this often happens. The issues that are prevalent in hip-hop culture become issues that are prevalent in black culture. And the issues that are prevalent in black culture become the issues that are prevalent in hip-hop culture.

Increasingly as hip-hop culture has sort of moved away from the things that originally defined it. So when you talked about, you know, stuff that was like, break in and DJing and graffiti and all of that stuff, that seemed to have a more diverse group of people to pull from it. But as we got hip hop becoming rap and rap becoming really inextricably linked to

the state and the thoughts of black people in the country, to me, hip hop over time became blacker. It became blacker. It started off in the way that I saw it on the stage and Suez-Way's thing. But over time, it became very. very distinctly the voice of black people. Under that, I still don't think Rosenberg is a cultural culture, but with that thought in mind,

I do understand why people say it. And people say it because of one thing. Rosenberg is allowed to do something in black culture that black people aren't allowed to do anywhere else. in any culture that doesn't involve them. They're just not allowed to do it. You can't, Rosenberg is a cultural commentator. He's helped a lot of people.

He's done a lot of stuff. But he also sometimes, in his past, has acted as a cultural hall monitor as a person who is fighting the good fight for what he thinks should and should not happen or should and should not be said. Now, we all do that. But we really don't do it in places

where we're not dominant. Like we don't do that in other cultural spaces. The only cultural space where you can come into that cultural space and tell people, black people, that they're not following the rules is this sort of hip-hop black culture that exists today. That's the only space where you can come in and be like,

that's whack, that's whack, that's whack, that's whack. And there is no space, no space where, black people are allowed to do that. So when someone does do it, it feels like they're doing something, they're taking advantage of the fact that they can. Hmm. I don't know examples of him doing that. I'm not that well versed. I'll give you one. And this is, by the way, this is, this is, this is just, like. The Vicki Minaj? Yeah. Okay. Like it, like that or, but this is, but remember now, Rosenberg is a hip-hop purist. And he was talking about a song, right?

Not the person. Right. Basically, he might have been early to, you know, you can't hit him in now. It might have been early. Yeah, some might say he was a visionary. So somebody would say that he had that one right. But he might have been early. But what I'm saying is in that, like in that situation, you're coming in here and you're saying, like, as a white dude, you're saying what the rules are, what the rules should.

be, you know, and that's kind of what he does, though. And maybe I'm just being too much of paying attention to what the actual definition is, and maybe there's another name for it. Right. I don't know that it would be vulturing. And I think that is why, like when you explain it that way, it's like, yeah. So, like, maybe you overstep. Maybe there's not a terminology quite for it, and it makes people feel a certain way.

All of that is fair. I think the reason he is so reactive to what, it has such a big reaction to what Jason is saying is because of the connotation of culture vulture and who that puts him in alliance with. Like who he's in company with when you're calling him that, which there's an easy line to draw that he is not those people. But I understand it the way that you're breaking it out. I think that he... But I would never call him a culture vulture. I think that he's very sincere in everything that he does.

And being a culture vulture is almost doing it from a cynical place. Of course. You're doing it to harvest like... For personal gain. Right. Yes. And so I think that's the reason why you see that reaction from him and that's an honest reaction. Like, what are you talking about?

But I do think, though, that there are people that just, we do all this talk, all of this stuff happens and blah, blah, blah. But like, boy, what the fuck you're talking about? Like, just ride. Are you ever been in a car with somebody and you drive in a car and they are in your car? is your car and they're pointing out shit and you're like hey man ride in the car like as in there like turn left

they're like yeah I'm like hey ride I used a friend who's lit like ride in the car like this is our car you ride now the question is whether or not that's fair to say about hip hop and that's a question that we've been asking for

a very very long time like to ask that fucking Eminem you're definitely going to ask the question of of Peter Rosenberg but I thought that was an interesting exchange it's a little cultural situation there Oh, Rachel, you had an interesting week on social media. Oh, I mean, I was going to come on here.

First off, I appreciate your video. Yeah, it's too much. That was really nice. Yeah, it's too much. It's really nice. But I, I'm okay. I was going to come out here and do a whole, like, how sad I was about it. I was going to do a whole thing.

And then I was like, no. I just, I don't. I, I, I, I, I'm trying to be nice because a lot of people are like, it's the way, it's what you did, you're making fun of it. I think we should all take pride in our organs. I mean, very, very nice about this. Right. I think we should all take pride in the organizations that we belong to.

I know I most certainly do. But I think that a lot of the reaction and the anger is misplaced. And I think that if you're directing it to me, you're wasting your time. because I'm not the person who should be on the receiving end of what it is that you're feeling. You know? But I understand why they're feeling that way.

It's embarrassing. I would be embarrassed too. But I wouldn't resort to personal attacks because, especially what people are like, oh, you know, well, your husband took half your money. That is a fact. That is true. And guess what? I'm not going to be mad because that's a fact that happened.

I can only have to redirect. If I did get mad, it couldn't be mad at the person who said it to me because they're only speaking of fact. I'd have to be mad at myself or him or the system or whatever it may be. But I wouldn't get mad because it's the truth. And you know what else is the truth? Your sorority sister is a white, mad girl woman. I'm sorry. It's the truth And we just have to figure out How to not let these things happen We just can't and I think that's the bigger conversation

But I know people want a reaction out of me I just I can't give you that You know it's like I always say A hip frog is gonna rib it Okay Okay we gotta we gotta go I have to ask you a question now Do you think

That there is a different between, and you've heard me, says, by the way, I feel so vindicated by this entire thing, I knew it. But is there a difference between the good-natured ribbing that exists between these different organizations and sometimes when it gets a little bit more toxic? Is there, what's the line? What's the line in AKA versus Delta and Kappa versus Q? I mean, I think when it's like petty stuff, right? like, you know, when you play into certain stereotypes or like even when girls are like, oh,

we came first or, you know, you let like that kind of, that's all that's, you know, just fun, silly stuff. If I'm bringing up something that happened and you don't like the way that I said it, I mean, it is something that happened. I'm trying to think of like what, I think the line would just be, you know, I don't know, something that was so inappropriate, outrageous to say. I think personal attacks are a little, not the one you said,

like that one that I gave us an example. I mean, that's the truth. But like if you're going to start talking about like people's appearances or, you know, stuff like that is just like, what are we doing? You should be above that. What are we doing here? Also, like, that's just like so lowbrow.

You should be better than that. But I think, and Ryan, Michelle was in the comments too. And she was like, all jokes aside, There's a bigger conversation to be had here. And I think that's kind of, and we did talk about it. What's the bigger conversation? We didn't clip it, but we did talk about it because you asked me, you said, should a white person pledge one of these divine nine sorority of fraternities? And we had that conversation.

We just didn't clip it. And I do think that's the bigger thing. And it doesn't necessarily, because a lot of people in the comments are like, you don't think that there's deltas that are MAGA or this. Of course, I'm sure they are. but there is a difference when it is also a white person, but we should be gatekeeping from any of that kind of thing that completely contradicts what the organization stands for. If your MAGA period, you shouldn't be a part of any of these organizations

because you are supporting something that is against the direct interest of the people that exist within this organization. Even if you're black. Even if you're black. So you're saying a black MAGA person should not be in the Divine Nine sorority. Mag is different. I'd say Republican. I'd say conservative.

I'm talking MAGA. Like for what MAGA stands for, it stands against the very organization. It stands against the people whose shoulders you stand on to even be a part of this. It stands against history, legacy, foundation. So any of that should be, and that's like the bigger conversation.

You know, like we have to protect what is ours because with when something is, when you become a part of something that's a legacy, like with that becomes responsibility. You have to protect that. Yeah. See, I can't speak to that because I don't know, like, what goes into it. All I know is that Gino cried when he crossed.

A lot of people do because of the process, like the whole, depending on what your process is. So a lot of people question me, tell me B. Alba's paper, wanted to vet me. How do you vet somebody about being paper or not? What do you say? She's going to ask a pro fight. Like, ask about me. The whole process. So ask a profile.

Geno cried, once again, though. A lot of people really do. But he, but I don't know if you know. Like, Gino cried, though. He cried. There's a bonding experience that happens. But Rachel, hold on for a second. Nobody else can relate to unless you go through it.

So I can understand, I can understand the emotion behind it. Okay. But last thing I'll say before we move on from this is, I mean, he really cried. Lee, Chino, love him. Like, he cried in the arms of his big brother, Mike. Shout out to Mike McLaughlin, by the way. My man, my God, it's my man. Shout out to Gino, whole family.

Shout out to Ms. Jennifer. Shout out to Mr. James. Shout out to Jeremy Bullock. Shout out to the whole. Gino got one of the greatest families ever. That's one of the greatest black families ever. And they're all CAPAs. The men.

No. So Jeremy never pledged CAPA. Gino pledged CAPA. Mike pledged CAPA. And Gino and Mike's dad is a CAPA. Ms. Jennifer's remarried. That's Jeremy's. But, you know, but Gino, he did the thing and he cried.

He cried. Eddie Cain. Well, look, I will, peace for everyone. Everybody must have peace. Okay? Everyone must have peace. It's peace.

Peace be unto you and to arm the divine nine. I'm calling right now for a truce amongst all of the divine nine sororities and fraternities. Peace. Peace beyond to you. And I want to know what you guys think. Should people that are maga be involved in these sororities and fraternities? Because I think that's an interesting thing. I think you might get more pushback from that.

you think that you might. I think a lot of people are going to be like they shouldn't be echo chambers and people, they want different types of people in there. Fraternities or sororities? Fraternities are sororities. I mean, I don't know, but see, that's what I was saying. I don't know what the process is.

So I don't know if, is there, do they like vet you guys ideologically? I know that they do grades. And I know with the capers, you have to have a certain amount of shoes. There's, you know, I'm certain amount of shoes. That's crazy. They have a certain amount of sweaters and jeans and different things like that. They would count them up.

It's like community activity. Like, how are you involved in, like, what are you involved in within the school and all? Like, there's so many different things. But, again, when I pledged, there was only Facebook. So, you know. Oh, you didn't really know. So I would imagine that you would, in the same way that a job looks at people's social media behavior, I would think that you would do the same thing with being a part of these organizations.

All right. The quick hidden pleasantly bullshit is out of the way. Donnie, let's start with a quick, End maybe to a saga that we profiled here on higher learning. Chut the Builder has been arrested, Donnie? The guy that goes by Chud the Builder, who live streams himself saying slurs to black people in public, was arrested in charge with attempted murder after a shooting outside of Tennessee courthouse. District Attorney General Robert Nash spoke about the incident.

He said the preliminary investigation revealed there was a confrontation between Dalton Earthily, also known as Chud the Builder, and an unknown male. The confrontation resulted in gunfire and both men were taken for medical treatment. So aside from attempted murder, Etherly was also charged with employing a firearm during dangerous felony aggravated assault and reckless endangerment with a deadly weapon. Hmm. Good. Lock him up. Lock him up. Lock him up. Lock him up. Lock him up. You know, when we first talked about this, and I think you even said it off, Mike, we were kind of like, should we have discussed a broad attention to? to this idiot, dangerous idiot, that is running around Tennessee, Nashville in the outside areas, terrorizing black people. Like, should we have even talked about it?

I'm glad we did. Because now we don't have to get all into the depths and setting the stage of, you know, to talk about him shooting a black man. And when I was thinking about this too, I was like, he probably was always. building up for this moment. So what do you want it? He was preparing for this moment because he wanted to be a George Zimmerman.

He wanted to be a Kyle Rittenhouse. I know Kyle Rittenhouse didn't shoot a black man, but I'm just saying he wanted to be able to justify his actions. He wanted to antagonize somebody just enough to where he felt like he could justifiably shoot them and potentially kill them

and then become probably revered within a certain community. And I didn't think about that the first time we talked about it. I was more focused on specifically what he was doing and how he was terrorizing to the point where even a Nick Fuentes

was like, this is too much, didn't even like it, which we know how awful he is. I just thought of it in a very small way. And then when this happened, I immediately was like, of course this is what he was building up for. Right.

So I think also more personal information about him came out during the time that people were, you know, investigating his past. And you see that he is disturbed. He's very disturbed and has had a tremendous amount of personal issues and problems. So all of this, all of this, to your point, in my opinion, was a gigantic ruse so that he could entice someone into a car. confrontation and not just bear spray them, but shoot them. This is always what he wanted.

I think he wanted it for the social media fame and the currency that comes along with killing a black person over a dispute like this in our current climate. But I also think he's nuts. Yeah. Yeah. And so like he was, he wanted to actually just be, in my opinion, be a shooter that would run out and pop people off at random, but he was a little bit more intentional

and cynical with his. He built an entire foundation of what he said was free speech and the freedom and all of that stuff. He tried to build an intellectual bed for people to lie on and make them like answer a question. Should you be able to say anything that you want? Everybody's going to be like,

oh yeah, of course you should be able to say whatever you want. People shouldn't get mad. And then on the back side of that, he's going and putting people in a position to really feel threatened by him so that he could kill one of them, which is the reason why I never thought that people should actually buy into it or get into it with them. But I knew that they would because he was not just saying the word. He was getting in people's space. He was people would walk away. He would walk towards them. He was doing everything he could then say.

hey, I'll kill you. Hey, I'll kill you. Like inviting that confrontation. Now, I guess I'll ask you from a legal standpoint. Tennessee is a stand your ground and castle doctrine law state. Individuals are allowed to use deadly force and have no duty to retreat when it is reasonably believed that serious injury, grave, sexual abuse, or death are imminent. Tennessee also has like this fighting words law, though. Well, shit.

Then everybody would have been justified. saying the N-word. I mean, violence for the N-word. Well, people are trying to say that even still with Tennessee's law, provocation is considered. The use of daily force is not justified if the person using the force provoked the encounter or consented to the violence. So that seems to wash it away. And I'll be honest with you. I don't know how the courts are going to work down there in Tennessee. This guy seems like a minister to the community. But it seems like they have like hours and hours and hours of evidence that he wanted this type of confrontation,

that he wanted to provoke this type of confrontation, that he time and time again asked for it. Yeah, I mean, there, he's been in trouble with the law a few times. I mean, there were reports that he was telling people he was a police officer from this very department. So I don't think that there's any favor towards him at all. I think that they want him off their streets and to not have to deal with him.

He's a problem. I mean, he was live streaming this whole thing. So I think it's also going to determine what the video or at least the audio will show because he said, of course, that they hit him first. You know, that's the story that he's telling. But for whatever reason, it clearly doesn't look that way because he's already been charged with multiple things. And it seems like there were eyewitnesses.

This happened in front of a courthouse. It was public. We've seen some video, but not everything. So, I mean, I hope he's charged with all of it. of this. If anything changes, I just hope that it's them adding more charges. Let's say he beats it. Man, he'll be back out on the streets. Back out in the streets. How should people deal with Chut the builder? How should people deal with people like Chut the builder? This is the question. Because now the fact that this guy has been able to be famous or become famous from this, this is not the last

guy like this is that we're going to see. So how should, we'll revisit disease. kids can jump in how should people deal with people like Chuck the Builder? What if this guy would have got killed that he would have made sure? So how should people deal with them? Who gonna answer? God damn it's a podcast. Are y'all gonna talk?

I'm thinking about because at first I was like I mean you know my thought is you want to preserve your life. You want to save your life. You don't want to endanger yourself. And this guy, you know this guy has been verbally terrorizing people

and assaulting people. and now here he is shooting them as well. If he got off, you either shoot back or you run away, you avoid him. Like you don't want any kind of encounter with him because you actually now know exactly what he's capable of doing and the way the law would handle it. I mean, I would imagine because we both agree that this is what he wanted,

he wanted to provoke this very type of situation so he could pull out his gun and kill someone. I would imagine that he is probably studied up on other people that have done it. I would imagine that he's studied up on the laws. I wouldn't even be shocked if he's consulted with an attorney about how far he could go, which is probably part of the reason

that the streaming is a part of all of this. And his story was immediately together. No, he said something, I came over, he said something to me, then he came over in my face, he attacked me. Like, he seems to already have the narrative together. If he got out, I say avoid this man at all cost.

Bad look for Nashville overall, too. because Nashville wants to present itself as a time where people can come have fun, enjoy music and all of that stuff. You got a guy walking around downtown antagonizing people. An armed racist. Armed races, antagonizing people, spraying people, ruining the vibes at all kinds of situations.

And I'll say this about Nashville, and I'll be real. Throughout the last week of Chud the Builder stuff, I saw a lot of white people. A lot of white people, because these videos would pop up. A lot of white people doing what? Checking Chud the Builder. Oh, yeah.

There's one guy who was calling him to Edward. I saw an older white guy who was an older white guy. He was in front of the bar. I'm telling you, this guy is out of the colored casting book. I mean, that's a guy that I don't like these colored nigger. He's a nigger. These guys, I saw a guy who I would say this is a nigger white guy. And he's sitting down and Chud comes over to him and Chud goes, I'll find a clip for you guys.

Chud says, they try to keep me out. He goes, well, two of my boys are black and get out of him. I think you should get out of here. And Chuck keeps going. He gets up and moves away. So it seemed like to me, I didn't see another white dude, take a picture with Chuck, the builder. But it did seem like to me that the entire community of Nashville

was kind of against this whole thing. I don't know about the entire community. I mean, I saw a white boy who stole his hat, but then was saying the N-word. He was calling him the N-word. He was like, you want to call black people the N-word? And he said the N-word, I mean, no short of 50 times. Trying to help.

I don't know about the whole community, but he is terrorizing more than just black people. I mean, anybody who stands with black people. So, yeah, like, I just think that they just, this guy, they want him off the street. Hopefully. Does it look good for him, though? Does it look good for Chud the builder? I think that if he does get out, he might take a show in a road.

Other place, Florida or whatever like that, Texas. Texas might be down with it. Dallas. Deep Ellum. Man, he'll get fucking killed. Don't go to Deep Ellum, Chud. Like, they kill you in Deep Ellum for nothing. Football.

Donnie? SEC football. Yeah. There's new calls that are popping up for black student athletes to reconsider attending schools in the SEC amid ongoing fights over voting rights and redistricting, which we have talked about. Public figures argue that black athletes generate billions of dollars for universities located in these states, which they say are simultaneously weakening black political representation. Here is Texas representative Mark Visi speaking on this.

And people are pissed off and people are sick and tired of it. Urging people, urging athletes not to go to SEC schools. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, urgent athletes ought to go to SEC schools. I mean, it's crazy that we keep going to these schools. And Supreme Court said unless you play football or unless you hoop, there can be no special admissions on race. We're going to get rid of DEI programs, which is happening in my state and most states around the South.

We're going to get rid of DEI program. And they're going to fire all these of black employees. There have been black employees and black, you know, that we're supposed to get positions of prominence at universities that had nothing to do with sports, those positions have been taken away. I mean, just the list goes on and on and on. And so while we're rewarding these schools with billions of dollars from kids that have been raised in our communities, while our voting rights are being taken away, while the districts that we represent are being taken away, white voices being stripped away here on Capitol Hill, I say enough is enough.

So the SEC is represented in Kentucky, Tennessee, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Arkansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas. Tennessee is well. I don't know if I mentioned Tennessee, I'm sure they are. So those are the states. Right now I have teams playing the SEC. The whole South. I always forget how North Kentucky is. I'm looking at the map right now.

Kentucky, I'm down here in Louisiana. Kentucky, to me, it's the North Carolina. in a way. I don't know why. I don't know why I feel like that. I'm looking at it. It's kind of like look at this. Look how high up Kentucky is. Look that's Louisiana. That's where I'm from. The actual South. Look look how high up the University of Kentucky is this way up here. That's like the Midwest man. They're going to come after you. Okay. Well, it's fine. Missouri. That's like that. Okay, cool. Mid-South. Hey, shout out to Kentucky, man. Shout out to everybody. Y'all got going to fry chicken, whatever. What are your thoughts? Well, I guess I have a question for

you. How, let's just say you started to see some athletes actually do this. You would have to see, I mean like 50% of them do it for it to be effective, right? No. You think less than that? I think it would take five, five stars to get the ball rolling. To change legislation. Not to change legislation. To get the ball rolling on this.

I think it would take five, five stars. What does get the ball rolling in? Meaning to... Beyond conversation. Changing legislation is one thing. Who knows if that'll ever happen. But to make this a robust movement, if you guys don't understand the way that this works

is high school recruits are recruited based on a star system. It's from one to five stars. One star and two star, those are basically walk-on athletes. Three stars are athletes that are probably good starters at smaller schools. or for whatever reason are developmental kids that can come up

and contribute to schools outside of like the elite colleges. Four and five stars are the kind of thing that you want your program built up of. There is something called a blue chip ratio that measures

the amount of four and five stars on every team. Now four star is a super productive kid in high school that grades out to a quality starter and an elite school for a college football.

A five star, though, a five star is supposed to be an NFL first round talent. The NFL is full of four stars. NFL is three stars. But a five star is supposed to be a bona fide NFL first round talent. These athletes are so coveted. They are so fought about. I still remember players, five star players, that LSU lost legitimately from 15, 20 years ago. I still remember five-star players that LSU got.

I remember the day that Russell Shepard said he was signing with LSU. I remember the day that Lennar-Fernett said that he was signing with LSU. I remember the day that LSU got Eric Gilbert, the LSU got Stingley. I remember these guys and getting these guys in what it meant, Harold Perkins. I remember what it meant to get these five-stars. They are incredibly important players.

if when I say five five stars I mean if that type of athlete that has that type of investment along with them if it just started with five of them going you know what I can't go to LSU I'm going to SC I can't go to Georgia I'm actually going to go to I guess it would depend on what South Carolina did in terms of Clemson I'm going to Michigan I'm not going to Florida I'm going here I'm telling you right now a conversation would begin and the coaches would start having a conversation because those players are so coveted and so valued. I legitimately think you could get it started with a handful of kids.

I mean, if we're just talking about a conversation, of course, but the argument that is being made here is that black athletes generate billions of dollars for these universities. So unless it impacts that those billions of dollars, then it's really not going to do anything. It'll be a social media conversation. It'll be a conversation we have within our...

ourselves. Now, if those five star recruits make that move and then that mentality starts to trickle down and then maybe it's 10, 15th, then I could maybe see it being a bigger conversation. I don't think it'll ever change legislation, but maybe there'll be something that forces it. I don't know. I just don't see it, especially like with this Trump administration. I just don't think that it's going to be a thing. I think it's definitely got to be more than five. Well, we're talking about two different things. So to begin this, to make this real, because right now it's just taught, I'm talking about what has to happen to make this real, to make this something that you have to consider when you are recruiting. That is the main thing.

If that happens, if this has to be a question that you ask kids when you are recruiting them, whether or not you are going to play in one of these states, recruiting is so competitive. Every single advantage in recruiting is used. Yeah, yeah. Every advantage in recruiting is used. Obviously facilities, your alumni base, your pipeline to the NFL, of course now, NIL, all of that stuff is used. If there is a social component to this that a school that is also willing to pay a player, right, can weaponize. If there's a social component to this, that can become something that depresses the value of a lot of these schools in their competitive market. You can say, hey, why would you want to go play in the state that you're not free?

But in order to make that real, this is my point, in order to make that real, you need high profile players that do it. For sure. I'll give you an example, and then I'll say something else about this. Now, this example is going to be somewhat controversial because this guy ended up being a real piece of shit. There's a player, there's a killer, there's a second. You remember him. K2 went on to the U. I think we've told the story here.

Right. So K2, when he was getting recruited, Kellynne Winslow the second is a piece of shit. Okay? Beyond. Beyond a piece of shit, right? He's a dangerous, terrible, like generational criminal, right?

So it's a terrible abuser of women. When he was getting recruited, his father had said, Kelly Winslow, his father was a Hall of Fame, a tight end. His father had said he would only play for a black coach. That became such a conversation. Now that didn't,

end up happening. But the conversation ended up being what would happen. You did that. That was, she fell again, man. You did that. What's going on with her? That's the pressure from the A.K.A.s. So, what would happen if that happened wholesale? If that happened across the board, would these guys

be able to put black men in these jobs, right? So we've been having this conversation. The only problem is this. There's something tricky that would happen here to me. So, if you're this gentleman or anybody else that's going to ask a recruit to leave their home

and go from Louisiana to California or Seattle, wherever, to go play college football, are you then going to say that the Essence Fest should move from New Orleans? Are you then going to say that a lot of the things that black people go to the South for to celebrate all of this other stuff, all of those things going to have to move? And the reason why I'll say that is because the reason why I'll ask that question is because for a lot of these kids it's about money, it's about all of that stuff it's about playing for the school

but also it's also about the easiest pathway to the NFL for them the easiest pathway to becoming a professional athlete and some of them are going to be like you're going to hear stories like hey I went over here and I got homesick my parents couldn't watch me play they couldn't come to the games I couldn't get home on the weekends

or like whatever whatever weekends and the offseason and that fucked with my head and I didn't perform as good like me staying home for a lot of kids, particularly the young black man for the South, that helps them in their college careers, that then helps them in their pro careers.

If you're asking them to give that up, you can't ask them to do it by themselves. And you can't put the entire future of the state on 18 and 19 year old kids. If they're being asked to sacrifice something, then as soon as I saw this, the very next thing I saw was legitimately in my algorithm, the announcement of who's coming to Louisiana

for the S&S. Festival, right? So like, we'd have to talk about this being a part of a wholesale economic boycott of states where black people's voting rights have been severed in half. Yeah, I think there's a little bit of a difference, though, for like the impact that affecting a university that serves white people more than black people, it serves their interest in regards to sports, It serves their interest in regards to money, alums, education, grant, all of that, that affects them so deeply as opposed to the essence festival,

which is for us. I'm not saying that that's not something that doesn't bring money to the city. It's in the Superdome. I know. I'm not saying it doesn't bring money to the city, but not in the same way, which is why I think it started with this first of boycott of SEC schools,

because this is something that white people will feel. Right. And impact it, too. So I get what you're saying about essence and like Broadening out past, broadening it out past sports, but I don't think it's like an, I don't think it's, we'll have the same impact. Well, it's, what I'm saying is,

well, it just depends on what you believe black people's economic dollars. Well, I'm talking about affecting white people, though. Well, I'm talking about like if the Superdome is owned by white people. So if you move the festival to a place, if you move it to Detroit, the Superdome is going to feel that, right? And the Superdome, of New Orleans. Now, there are a lot of black people that are going to be hurt by that.

The argument that you could make is there are going to be less black people that would be hurt by this because they can go play at other schools. What I would say is that for a lot of them, these athletes are generational lottery tickets for them. And if they go play at another school outside of their home state where they're from, they're young, if it doesn't work out, you're going to hear a lot of people saying, like, I'm putting it on the line and I'm doing it on my own. So I think this would have to be a part of, and I think we should talk about this, a broader economic effort to defund some of these states of black dollars, especially black dollars, that we're traveling to these states to do. You've got to spend money in

your communities down there in the South and all of that stuff, but if we're traveling to different places, would NABJ have the NABJ conference in a place where one of these states have been gerrymandered like that? They probably shouldn't. If this is what we're doing. If this is what we're doing, we can't ask the young athletes to do it by themselves. I mean, I think that this is a really interesting conversation in how we possibly could mobilize against some of the things that we're seeing Supreme Court in this administration do. It's really interesting.

You hit them where it hurts. I get it. Five five stars. That's five five stars, man. You need more than that. Five five stars. Like right now we got Easton Royal. Look, I don't know, so we're not on it yet.

Easton, go to LSU. So we're not, okay, so we're not on it. We're not on it yet. When the boycott really begins, I won't say this. But Easton, bro, don't go to Texas. See, Rachel, Rachel not even tapped in. LSU and Texas are fighting for a kid right now. The kid is from Louisiana.

The young man ran 10-100, bro, Easton, go to LSU. Until we get the plan together. Then you can't even go to Texas. Then Easton, you got to go to Arizona State of Estes. Huh? They recruit it? No, no, no. Ranks number one.

Yeah, it's fleets. We have to see what arch does. I hate that they did that though. Let's see what arch does. Not again. Not again. No, come on. You know, that was one of my jobs at UT.

I was a Texas Angel. I was a Texas Angel. I was involved in the recruiting process. Did you, I want you guys to go back. I want you guys. I want you guys to go back and isolate. Donnie, did you hear, did you hear Bernard? It was confusion.

Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on for a second. Donnie. Donnie, did you hear Bernard? I didn't. The mic didn't pick it up.

Fuck. I didn't. Thank you, Jesus. It never happened. It never happened. Like Rachel said, that was one of my jobs at UT. Bernard went. And let me further explain.

Texas. It doesn't even exist anymore. It doesn't even exist anymore. But yeah, it's a chance. Hey, you got to, Bernard. It doesn't exist anymore. Y'all saw he got game. I know because they got rid of all of this stuff.

Because after that Colorado scandal. Exactly. They got rid of. They reorganized it. I still was an angel, but they re-organized it. organized it. But yeah, like I was involved. I would talk to families and and the players and show them around and sit with them at the games and just like let them know how great of a university it is. But it was just centered around the games.

Cool. All right, we're going to take a break. You know what's funny? You know what I'm saying this? I've never told you that I'm sure. I didn't know. Obviously he's joking. You know what? Because whenever, this is funny to me if you follow college football, if you follow college, go, I I want you all to look right now, go look at any college football program. When you look at the recruiting director on-campus recruiting person, it's always a Rachel. Or it's always, it's never a nigger that look like, hold on, man. Not in Texas right now. No, I'm talking.

What I mean is there's a specific position at the school that is a charge of like showing the people around and like being the liaison and all. of that stuff and it's always a Rachel as a matter of fact unless you got in trouble because a couple of years we're not going to go back we're not going to go back

I'm just saying but no we don't get that job you know because we what the niggas go look like when we take them around campus hey bro you're trying to get some food no that's not going to work it's like hey

hi you want to come to campus that's what they want to see all right we're going to take a break real quick Special guests on the show right now, Tiffany D. Cross. You guys are familiar with Tiffany Cross. She has been a staple in the mainstay in media for a long time. And she is now an author. This is your first book? Second book.

Second book here. So she's already been an author. Shame on me. Love Me, A Letter to Black Women in a Toxic Country, Career and Relationship. Wow. A book about black women. Now, when you flip to the inside of, the page, the first line here is really interesting to me.

Thank you for joining us on higher learning. I want to get right to it. First question, will we ever get back the love we give? Profound. Yes. Well. What made you ask that question? Can I just take a moment before I answer and say, I'm so excited to be on this podcast.

Oh, very special. Well, because I was talking to Van about like the book and he was telling me, you should do this podcast. You should do this. And I was like, your podcast to meet, like, that is in my bag. Like, those are people I talk to. Like, this is where I would feel at home talking about it. Thank you.

So I'm thrilled that you guys have me as a guest today, Van and Rachel. I'm very happy to be, because a lot of the podcasts are not necessarily co-ed. So I'm happy to have two people here to get into the book. Fantastic. And it'll be different perspectives, I'd imagine. Well, I mean, not necessarily. Because the book is for me. The book is to me.

Right. It is, I literally wrote two black women, but I hope black men read it, you know, to gain insight because you all got mamas and sisters and cousins and girlfriends and partners and all the things. But it was definitely two black women. I literally pictured faces of black women I would pass on the street. You know, when you're writing, you're writing to someone. So I had to constantly picture all the beautiful black women I would cross past with whether I knew them personally or just walk past them. So the question, will we ever get back the love we give? I the answer is I hope so

And for a more definitive answer to say yes I think I get back the love I give when I'm in the presence of other black women And this is true you know It doesn't mean that black men don't love us because I don't believe that Like I do I feel loved by black men But the love I give and the love we give It is overflowing you know It is plush

And I feel that in the presence of other black men. I love other black women. I love black men very much. And I enjoy them. But there's nothing like spending time with black women in deep conversation who understand me and love me and get me in a way that I don't have to explain. I can let it hang. I'm not sucking it in.

I'm not tight. I'm not on guard. I'm just relaxed. And there's something safe about that. What would it look like to get back the love that you give? overall outside of the bubble of black women. Yeah, I think I think in a tangible out loud way

because I don't know that that's a blanket response for every woman. So for me, that can be in different ways. So the book is not necessarily about relationships with black men and black women, but it's about pouring our love into a country that isn't pouring love back into us. It's about pouring our love into careers

that isn't pouring love back into us. And it's about pouring love into our counterparts, black men, that we don't always feel that out loud tangible love back. So I think each of those instances, those buckets of love, look different. To pour our love into a country that isn't loving us back, it would look like, one, the country trusting us with leadership, after all we pour it into this country, to be defined as the enslaved, you have to come through the womb of a black woman. Like we made this country a superpower. And yet we are not trusted to lead this country. Yet, that's very policies, the bones of America are rooted in our oppression, our destruction.

We would have to disrupt that and reimagine, can we be at home here? The prior love back into our careers and get that love back would be fairness, you know, to tilt the scale in our favor. Right now, you know, I have a theory that a lot of white people don't believe in themselves enough. So that's why they like to tilt the scales in their favor, while we'll look at this imbalance and say, now watch me leapfrog over all of them and still succeed. And so we survive. But I don't know about y'all.

I'm tired of surviving. Like, I'm ready to thrive. When we look at the wealth gap and the pay scale, the inequities, and throughout our entire, in every aspect of careers. And I go into the data about this. And of course, I talk about my own challenges, navigating a newsroom. And being successful, being successful, bringing over 4.6, 4 million monthly viewers to a network. And they said, nope, you know, we don't want it.

And we don't like you. You're not centering white people's comfort. You have to go. That's not getting the love back. It would be, yes, you're on equal footing, and we thank you for bringing these new viewers. You know, we can tap you to host specials and have a primetime show and, you know, do all the things that other people get to do. I never got that. And a lot of other women, black women aren't getting that.

And then from our counterparts, for me, it would be a love that's companion love that is not questionable, that is rooted in living in service to a partnership, not to an individual. but something that reflects what we've always had to survive this 400-year nightmare, just a relaxed, safe space, not these foolish things about who's high value and what you bring to the table and all that, like, toxic conversation, but something that we relax into each other and ascend in a space of love, beyond a place of right and wrong, just ascend with each other in a place of love. It's interesting because as I was reading the book, I think I didn't, as black women, we can just be, you're just in go mode, right?

And you discuss this in the book. And I just kept thinking, I don't even realize all the ways that I give myself to people, family, friends, professionally, society. But as I was reading the book, I'm like, wow, I do that too. Wow, I do that too. There's just so much that we do, which is why you talk about you tired, you're exhausted. And reading through it, it's like, man, we really do it all, it feels like.

And then as you're reading the book also, you see so many ways. I mean, we feel this, but you give examples of ways that we don't get that love back, the way we don't feel loved, or we're even kind of told people are told not to love us a certain way. I want to know just as a general question. What do you love about being a black woman? Hmm. I love the commonality of our experience. You're a Delta, but I belong, we belong to the largest sorority in the country.

That's true. Born into the sorority of black women. And so if you have a room full of black women, there's an energy. It's almost tangible. It's palpable. There's an energy among us. If one person comes in that room and they don't look like us, the energy is off. Now, if a black man comes in the room, it's still some safety, but the energy has tilted, right?

If a white person comes in the room, now we're a little tighter. Now we feel a little less safe. We're going to watch what we say. There are things I can say that you and I sitting here. Our brother Van is here. We love Van. But you and I sitting here can have an entire conversation with our eyes and not say a word. Like I know if Van said something we disagree with, we can communicate.

Like, I don't know about that. But I don't have to say that out loud. There's something beautiful about that. There's nothing anybody can offer me that could make it appealing for me to lose that trust with you. I don't know you well, Rachel, but I know you well. I know you. You know me well, but you know me. I belong to you.

You belong to me. And it's so, the bond is so thick that even if you and I didn't like each other personally, out there, it doesn't matter. Like, I might not like you personally, but out there, I love you. Like you and I might not, you know, we go walk in the room like, yeah, hey, hey. And, you know, we might not speak. But out there, can't nobody say anything about Rachel. They can't get there.

hands on you because you belong to me and I belong to you. So there's a love that's instituted immediately. So I love that about us. And Rachel and I like each other fine. But you know, there are women that you know, things happen that they may not be your favorite person. Correct. But there's a protection. There is a protection. There should be. Right. There should be. Every now and then we come across one who is not like us, as they say. But for them, I assume, I assume the best. And I assume that there are people. When I see you, I assume safety. I love the way that you put that. And then as I was reading the book, too, like there's just so many thoughts that I had. And before we got on, I was saying how a friend, a mutual friend, Clarence Hill, was at one of your book tour stops.

And he says that he bought the book for his daughters. So thinking future. And as I was reading it, I kept thinking, and this is this love letter to us in the present, but also towards the future. who is somebody that you wish would have read this book that could have read this book? Me. Me. I wrote the book that I wish I had. I wrote this book, two black women,

but I wrote this book for 15-year-old Tiffany, you know, for 12-year-old Tiffany, who felt unprotected and never really believed that I was lovable or worthy of things. And so, you know, like you said, I'm at this space, this middle age, you know, and I'm looking back.

And there's a knowing that comes being this age. There's a wisdom. I'm weathered by the wisdom of life. And when I meet younger women, you know, maybe 30, 28, whatever. And I look at them and I know, I'm like, there's a knowing I have. You haven't met yourself yet. You know, you're just getting settled into yourself. You know, when young people, I'm sure this happens to you all the time.

We're like, well, you be my mentor. You know, I'm still trying to figure shit out myself. You know, right. But when you speak to them, it's like, oh, I do have a wisdom that you have not. yet earned. You know, there are things that I can impart upon you. And I'm meeting myself at this iteration of life for the first time. I'm connecting with myself and discovering and falling in love with this person at this age. And I tried to in the book strike the balance because I'm 47. And so looking to women who are maybe 65 and looking at me saying, yeah, you're going to meet yourself

about three or four more times. And they're looking at me, seeing me walk down. They say, keep going. We'll see you when you get here. So I'm looking to women doing that. And I know there are women calling me doing that. And that chain of life and love, knowing what we carry, we are carrying our grandmother's grandmothers, grandmother's pain, knowing what we carry, that comes with a heavyweight responsibility, but also love.

And so being at this point in this generation, that heaviness, I wanted to give ourselves permission to lay our burdens down. And we were carrying swords, you know, protection. I wanted to lay that sword down and meet myself with open arms and not a weapon and meet other people, give other people permission to lay their weapons down

and just meet each other in love and solidarity and safety. Love it. What does meeting yourself look like? When do you know you've met yourself? How do you meet yourself? What happens? I, when you meet yourself, Anne, you'll know.

I've met myself a long time. Well, I wouldn't know what it looked like for you, but I'll tell you what it looked like for me. For me, it was a level of authenticity. I thought I was an authentic person. But those voices were always in my head. You know, there was only one version of me. And there is.

There's only one version of me. Whether the cameras are rolled. We were talking before the camera started rolling. You know, this is going to be the same person. We would sit here and have the same conversation where there are cameras or not. And I've always been that way. You know, what you see is what you get. But there were still voices that I heard that told me I didn't deserve.

And those voices were. so loud and instituted from a lot of things that at times I couldn't tell if those voices were coming from the inside or the outside. And so acknowledging that those voices existed and then chasing those feelings, where did they come from? Where did the idea come from that I am not lovable? And so you can do it in a, you know, oh, this bad relationship made me feel like I'm not lovable. But forcing myself to sit in the pain of that and chase that feeling like, no, you didn't feel unlovable because of him. You felt unlovable before that. So chase that feeling, where did it come from? Or feeling unworthy. You didn't feel unworthy because you lost your show.

Chase that feeling. Sit in the pain and chase that feeling. Don't escape yourself. Don't escape yourself with somebody else to take your mind off things. Don't escape yourself in food. Don't escape yourself with hanging out with friends. Sit in the quietude of your thoughts and chase those feelings. And dismantling some of the lies that I had been told or some of the lies that I believe. that I told myself, giving voice to my umbrage and my anger, letting the tears flow with, again, without trying to escape it, it was an unveiling and unmasking and really looking myself in the mirror and not pretending to be the hero in that mirror, you know, like seeing myself in all my flaws and all the ugliness, you know, that was there and learning to see that as not ugliness,

but just a part of who I am. So it's not like, oh, I've met myself, I'm done. It is a journey of self-discovery Just like there's no such thing is healed It is a journey of self-discovering and healing And like this is not a memoir You know this is a piece of me And I wanted to give language To those dark thoughts that we don't say out loud

That we may not say at brunch tables with our girlfriends But I wanted to put that on the pages So other women might journey inward to Me meeting myself Was the certainty of purpose that's it like I know who I am and what I'm trying to do and therefore every scab and callous

that I get along with that I wear it probably there's nothing that it once I understood that I meant well that I try that I endeavor I'm comfortable with anything else that happens and any other obstacle that comes into my that comes into my purview and this is probably the man thing,

is my singular duty to rise above the obstacle. But it's all rooted back in purpose, like what I believe in who I want to be. And that was hard. It was hard because the way I was socialized was to, in this very specific, very rigid definition of manhood. And it didn't matter how you did something.

you know, it only matter like why you did it. So if I'm trying to, if I'm trying to keep you safe, then I can berate you. Like if I'm trying to keep you safe, then I can control you. If I'm trying to keep you safe, then I can be unfeeling with you because at the end of the day, I'm trying to keep you safe. My purpose is to like to go to the place that I'm going in a humanistic way. with my values intact. And so for me, once I realized that, like, I wasn't soft because I cry, that I wasn't weak because I'm curious,

that I wasn't flighty or flaky because I'm sometimes unsure that all of those things were a part of me, everything else I kind of let go. And that was a combination of the lessons that I got from the men that were around me and also watching how their lives turned out. Yeah. You know, it's interesting because so my my sense of purpose and meeting myself were on two parallel tracks. And I think in meeting myself the two merged, because my sense of purpose was always clear. I was never unclear about that. My sense of purpose was always to live in service to the liberation of black folks, which deliberates everybody. Meeting myself, like one was what I offered the world, what I showed up to the world to offer. Meeting myself required of me to ask the world. of something, you know, to ask the world or to declare myself worthy in the world. I don't know that it was asking permission, but to declare myself worthy of whatever this world

had to offer, to seize it, but to declare it so, that there was no outside entity that could deny that of me. So I don't know, I'm trying to, I'm trying to weigh the balance of that. So being that, being that I'm a man, what I was, the way that I was raised was that my worth was in protection and producing. So my father would always say that like, you're not a man unless somebody relies on you. Oh, wow. Right.

So unless, like, I would look at him, look back and forth. And he'd look at me, he'd be like, you think you're a man. I'd be like, yeah. He goes, well, a man doesn't take care of another man. A man takes care of people. So you'll be a man when you have someone to take care of. When you have someone to take care of it, when someone relies on you,

that's manhood. man is all but under that it was kind of oppressive with him right and all the men in my family smiles and stuff but burdened very burdened so my like me coming to my purpose was defining what my life meant for me by myself like regardless of everything else that everyone told me that I had to be those things are still important to me don't get me wrong but my my purpose was you know if I want to be 22 years old and go hang out at the video arcade all day at a lock-in that they're not going to be people who ridiculed me for that and try to make me feel like I was bad for being with my friends at the video arcade and not out in the streets,

like making, like, you know what I'm saying? Yes, you're safe here, Van. Exactly. So my purpose was in embracing who I am and understanding that like the way I was raised is parts of you can subtract from what it is that you're trying to do. So it didn't matter anything that you did if you were gay. It didn't matter anything that you did if you were unsure. And so in embracing myself, knowing that I'm going to a specific place, but I'm all of these things that my father and my brothers and all of these men weren't, I was more confident that I've ever been in who I am.

And that way, I can be of service and a part of community, not just the leader, but the lead, like a part of a community. It's interesting though as a man how you're describing purpose and meeting yourself It still feels very different I think from Certainly what I write and how I think women Would define purpose and meeting themselves But it makes it's pretty consistent I think with men So it makes sense

So I'm just taking you in I'm talking about it Rachel do you feel like you've met yourself I feel like I will continue to meet myself Yeah Because my life looks so different in the last 10 years. You know, and even what I thought five years ago for me is not moving forward.

I'm in a, you know, I'm recently divorced. A life I had planned for myself is no longer going to happen, at least with that person and in that way. And so I'm working on writing right now because I'm discovering new things about myself. And that's why when I was listening to you talk, I kept thinking of the word, how refreshing it must be for you to come, like to come to the place that you are right now and just, discovering certain things about yourself. And one of the things you write about, and you just kind of talked about too, is vulnerability.

And you kind of mentioned it when you said, because I feel like I was raised that it was a weakness to a point. And, you know, like that can be something that's just passed down from generation to generation. But in therapy, I learned actually being vulnerable as a strength in the way that you're able to do it. And so for you in this book, I know you said it, and it's not a memoir, but it does feel so personal. Yeah. So it kind of felt like that.

And I appreciated that, and I appreciated the vulnerability, which I do believe is such a strength. And one of the things, and I don't know if this ties the two together, but I felt like my purpose for so long was just to my identity and my identity was tied to my career. My identity was tied to specific things. And the more vulnerable I got with myself as I go through these seasons, I'm realizing that's not the case and I kind of had to separate that. For you in writing this book, were you shocked at how very? vulnerable you were? And did you feel like you had to hold back in any kind of way? Because you do

really lay it all out there, which I relate to. Like, even in my notes, I was writing stuff and I was like, thank you. Thank you for saying this, like when it came to men. And I'll use the line in a second. But yes, were you surprised. Were you shocked it the way you were? Not when I was writing. Okay. I'm shocked. I've been on book tour and I'm shocked when somebody will repeat something back to me and I went, you know, I'm like, how dare you bring up my personal businesser? You know? And I'm like, oh, bitch, you wrote that. You know, like, you actually put that out there for public consumption.

So, writing felt very cathartic, you know. And like I said, I pictured black women. So I didn't want to bullshit people. You know, I didn't want to paint this pretty picture of myself. And you've read books by people where it's like, okay, you're a hero in every story, you know, or you've talked to people where, you know, they always come out the wiser. and every story. And I wanted to put my ugliness out there. I wanted to put my pain, my hurt, my flaws, because I see that in other women. They might try to hide it away or, you know,

lash it away or all the things that we do. But I saw it. And so I thought, we know each other. And you can read a book where you can tell if it's authentic or not. And so for me, I thought it very important to be authentic from writing about my mother to relationships, to hate texting, to this country, to my frustrations, to my pains, to my embarrassment, to my shame, all of those things because if I cannot trust putting my story in the hands of other black women, then it would say so much about how I felt about myself, that there was something wrong with my experience, that there was something less than to my thoughts. And I just, I refused to do that this time. Now, I was in therapy. I'm still in therapy, but this was like years of therapy before I even

started writing ongoing therapy when I was writing. And Chrison, Van and I share, and editor, Chrison asked when I was signed the contract, she was like, oh, before we sign, can we confirm that you're actually in therapy? I was like, yes, I am in therapy. Because she said, like, people will write, start the writing process and, like, have breakdowns. And, you know, and she's like, we want to make sure that you're, like, ready for this journey. So, yeah, I thought I owed that to black women. I hope, and it delights me that you feel that in the pages. because that was very much my intention. Was there a fear from you

just because the book also talks about feeling safe and something that we desire? I'll just say for men in general because there's so many ways that we don't feel safe and so when we let our guard down and we are vulnerable, one of those things that we're craving is safety because we don't get that in so many other places

in this society. Were you scared in or fearful in putting that out there that someone would try to weaponize that against you and if you weren't, is that because you are, like, I know healing is an ongoing thing, but because of, you know, where you are right now. I don't think I was ever fearful of that,

but I anticipated, yes. And how do you feel now, like with the reception and everything? I anticipate at some point, somebody will try to weaponize something I put in the book, but I'm completely fine with it. You know, and also, like, I was on air, you know, people, every single time, people see you before they hear you, people have an opinion about everything you do.

And so being hosting live TV, there was always an opinion, you know, from like something I wore, my makeup, my hair. I was used to public opinion. This was a little different because it's not my analysis, is not intellect, it's not something political. It is, it's all of those things in the book. But so many parts were very tender pieces of myself. And I had seen. people try to ridicule other women or just be like shitty and it's not just men like I've seen other women do that to other women which I also write about so you know there is um a thickening

of the skin that happens when you're out there in the world so I don't fear it but I do I anticipate it and I don't know I feel like fine you know overwhelmingly like women have been very receptive and excited and men who've read the book have been very receptive and excited and reflected on their own choices and behaviors with women. Like they've said, like, I had no idea that I had hurt so many women until I read men in their 50s. I'm like, really? You had no idea.

But men in her 50s have told me. I've recorded a couple of podcasts with some older men who have reflected on that. I'm like, well, good. I want you to heal the pain that we felt. Because I think what, you know, when you have a public platform, you're used to just talking, speaking your mind, having a thick skin, so just saying what you feel. But then when you talk to people who aren't in. the space, you realize that it is not easy for people to speak what's on their mind or say how

they feel or be vulnerable or whatever that might be. And I think what resonates and it's going to continue to resonate for a lot of women is that you're saying things that people are so afraid to say because it goes against what they've been taught, what they've been told by their families, by their religion, by the patriarchy. I mean, hearing you talk about children, hearing you talk about love, that's where I think women, black women, particularly will read this and say, thank you for saying that because it makes me feel like you feel like you have to be a certain way. You have to walk a certain way as a black woman. You have to be so careful. And I think that it's very freeing to read your words and feel like it's okay. And I'm not alone. I think that's also

what's so beautiful about the community. We are never alone. In my darkest, in the depths of my darkness when I felt isolated and I looked around and there were other black women down there with me. I knew I was not alone. I was not alone. And, you know, to be honest about those times where we splinter and, you know, I had a black woman who was not so kind to me. And I write about that. And even in those moments, I try anyway to give even her grace because I'm like, you're navigating a system that taught you to be this way. I'm navigating a system and I bucked the idea of being that way. But I don't believe, like, you know, I've been subject to someone's inherent evilness. I think we can all be victims of the system, survivors of it. How does this system

affect the way we treat each other to you? Oh, God. So what I write about in the book, I think in my situation, I had a black woman boss. And like I said, when you navigate a system in a way that I'm learning how to be from them. And so we can be so excited to see someone in that space. Like we're celebrating you becoming a black version of them because you think this is my way to success. And so when you come across someone like me who has bucked the system at every chance who have said, no, you know, fuck that.

I'm not, I'm not living like that. I am not centering white people's comfort. I'm going to be my authentic self. I'm not code switching. Like what you see is what you get. And we land at equal spaces where we have both achieved some level of success. The person who followed the white man's rules can sometimes resent the person like me. It's giving who is that going up there on that horse energy, you know? It affects how we treat each other

because this person feels like, how dare she? Like, I followed all the rules and she broke all the rules and we land here at the same time. I think that creates a mentality of envy and resentment. I think when it comes to friendship, this hasn't been my experience, but I've heard stories that I just, I can't even relate to. But in my circle of friends, we are all in the same industry for the most part, or like public interfacing on some level. And so we may all be going after the same opportunities. We may all be on the speaking circuit.

We have bucked this idea of lack and we do not maneuver from a space of scarcity. We share salary information. We share how much of money. it's paying us for showing up someplace. We share opportunity. My intention has always been, I want to make sure everyone in my life is doing something dope. I want to make sure everybody around me is well positioned.

Because if that's the case, one, that's just our community. That's what we do for each other. But also, if that's the case, would it not make sense that should I fall? If everybody around me doing something dope, then they will all be in a position to catch me. And I have a sisterhood like that. The morning my show was canceled, I was so dumbfounded, but eventually I had to let the group chat know.

Now, the group chat is Joy Reid, who would eventually meet the same fate, Jamel, you know, Jamel, Jamel Hill, Kerry champion, Angela Rye, Sunny Hosten at the View, Britney Pachnick Cunningham activist, Alicia Garza, founder of Black Lives Matter, Aaron Haynes, President of NABJ, Latasha Brown, founder of Black Voters Matter. I had all these women. That group chat immediately turned into Olivia Pope overnight. Like they went into action. Crafting statements, looking at contracts, like being very targeted and focused. There was even a woman, this white woman who started reaching out to me, like, you know, Variety wants to talk to you and paid six is asking for a quote. And I didn't know why she was doing all this, but she was kind of coordinating press.

And I later found out she was doing that because Sunny Hasten paid her to do that. I mean, I just had women praying over me being around me. Angela was like chief of staff to the blacks. I was surrounded. And to me, that is our way of, like, we're bucking the system. You know, we want everybody to succeed. We rise collectively. And I would do the same for them.

I write about getting into a fight at a fast food restaurant when I was younger. And everybody came ready to, like, throw hands, you know. It was like, oh, we want to throw some knuckles today. Whether you were involved or not. That's how I feel. If somebody mess with Rachel, they didn't mess with Rachel. They mess with us. And I think that's how we have to start maneuvering.

So I think the system tries to divide, tries to promote this idea that men and women are at war, tries to promote this idea that black men are voting for Trump, tries to promote this idea that there's only so many, so much for us. There's only so many men for you. There's only so many jobs for you. So you have to compete. But I just, I don't, I've never adopted that attitude. I've always felt like our sisterhood, our community is the most important thing.

What do you think the glitches in the communication between black men and black women that seemingly exist? I'm not so sure how much they actually exist. Yeah. That seemingly exists. Where do you think those glitches are coming from? So I want to just say I don't know that there are glitches. I think it is our algorithm that is intentionally feeding us those things, trying to give the impression that there are glitches.

But I know so many amazing black men who show up and who showed up for me then and who will show up for me today. They belong to me. The world cannot tell me who black men are. So I think we have different ways of processing things. I think the way we maneuver in society now ask more of our black. We ask more of each other. But I don't know that there are glitches.

I know people who are happily partnered to black women who are happily raising black children who have been married 20, 30 plus years, who live blissfully. So those are the examples. I know black men who I write about black men who support black women unapologetically. When my show got canceled, one of the first calls I got was from Will Packer saying, I'd love to be in the Tiffany Cross business. How can we partner? It's the same thing for me. Why are you always trying to, like, it is my story.

You know what I'm saying? I was, I was like, oh, wow. Because I just want everybody to know what's awesome fucking question, Will is. The only thing wrong with Will is the fam you think, other than that. Well, you know, my Rattler is the right heart. So we get, we. Yeah, but he's a great example of, like, I'm in a position to catch you when you fall. Like, I'm going to do that.

And not as a favor, but he genuinely believes in band. You know, he generally taught, you know, talent there. And same. So, yeah, I write about other people who may not be household names. But, yeah, I don't believe that there are really glitches. And I think for black women, it is our highest honor to love our men. It's our highest, one of our highest honors to, we don't just have a desire to be loved. We have a desire to love.

So when we take this delicate love and offer it to somebody, it means so much to us. And all that we ask is that you be delicate with it, that you treat it with the care it deserves. Beautifully said. The reason why I say glitch is because I, two things, I monitor what's happening on social media. Obviously, I'm chronically online. Way too online. And so the conversation is obviously super, super toxic on there. But then in conversations with actual black ladies that are incredibly,

intelligent and cultured, you hear a lot, it seems like, over the course of the last X amount of years, their frustration. And I'm not about to continue. I always say, like, we had Jamila Lemuel up here, you know, and she talked about, you know, the coupling in Los Angeles. And I'm like, single black mother. Single black mother. Yes, her book. Yeah, her book. We had her up here. She talked about coupling in Los Angeles and like, you know, where. And I'd say, well, you know, There are parts of Los Angeles where you can go there. Like if I go to the court cafe this weekend, then I'm going to see nothing but black families in there. If I'll go to the soul house, I'm going to see different.

Nobody. You know what I'm saying? So I'm going to see nothing but black families in there. So like maybe you're L.A., the L.A. that you're talking about where black men are not looking for black women. Maybe that's not the entire L.A. Yeah. But that, but these ideas, though, they are pretty persistent. Why do you think you think it's the algorithm like totally?

You know, because I'm hearing you say that about L.A. And I've always lived and navigated black-ass cities. So maybe L.A. is... That's a thing for me, though, right? Because I'm from Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Yeah. So my entire tradition is black men, black women, black family, everything black. Do you see that as much in L.A.?

Well, I mean... Rachel's saying, no. It's not as much in L. As much. Well, so this is what I would say to that. I'm being for real. Hold on for a second. It depends on what your L.A. is. My L.A. is a lot of different places that people don't go for the L.A.

And also the men that I know that are even here, that's their thing. Once again, I could drop names, but I'm not going to put nobody business out there. The men that I know, I don't know these guys that you guys are talking. Not me. So you're saying the men you know rock with black women. Okay. So let me just say, because I do. The men that I know.

But the men that you know are actually. Some. No. All that's not. Okay. Okay. I'm trying to be respectful. I'm trying to be respectful.

How are you? Okay. Okay. There's, you know, there's some, there's some riders. Yes. You know what I mean? But like, those men exist. The men who, who deal with white women exist.

But let me just say, according to the data. They are some. Yes. I'm just being for real. Because I know, we know them, you know. Shout out to them, by the way, man. Y'all do whatever you're doing. Okay.

Yeah, please go where you want it. But the point is, the data. shows that we have some of the highest endogamy rates of any community. Black men overwhelmingly marry black women like upwards so more than 83%. Sisters don't feel that. Because they don't see it. Publicly, public figures, people, you know, you don't see it as much. I just got to be honest with you.

I guess, but no. Think of celebrity. I'm talking, we're talking celebrities. You want me to start naming celebrities? Yeah, but you know what we're saying. Sam, Don. Jalen her I could go Do you know the list of celebrities that I can go through?

I just want to point out that you You more named some legacy people I know you said Jalen But you named some legacy people Talk about like what you're seeing The younger Damson, Lori I could continue

They're not together Well whatever Shout out to them And I'm not getting into your business You know what we're saying We don't have to do it back and forth on it So Rachel do you feel like a lot There are a lot of black men who prefer non-black women

Well Tiffany let me be honest with you Yeah Because everybody met me with a non-black Yes A lot of times people assume that I don't want black men. But people who know me, because it's funny because Van is always like, people will ask about you who you are. People who knew me before they ever met me on The Bachelor, no, that's all I dated was Black Man.

I tried something different. But so for me, it is a little different, my experience, because Black men kind of can be like, well, she doesn't really fuck with us. Really? May I ask, how was it being in partnership with, He loves this. He loves this. He loves this. He loves this. It's an honest question. I've had such a messy divorce.

I'm going to try to be nice. There was culture to him because he was from, he's Colombian. And so like I would go to Columbia. I would beat his family. One of his grandmothers was Afro-Latina. But it's still, let me just put it very simply. Every day I felt I am black. He is white. Yeah.

Every day I felt that. But it doesn't mean that I did not love him because I'm not going to be a revisionist and act like that wasn't real for me at a time. Yeah. But I was very aware of it, even in the comfort of our household. Yeah. Even when we would go out to a restaurant, even when people would talk about it as we post on social media, I was always aware of it.

I never relaxed in it. Yeah. But I just think that that speaks to who I am. I know people in interracial relationships who are totally different. for me, I was never comfortable in it. And maybe that just says something about me. But I think it says something about us. That's the most simplest way I can put about how did that feel without being negative to him personally.

I don't take that as negative. And I think it says less about you and more about us. Like that's the dynamic I'm talking about. If we're all in here, right now, everybody in the studio, everybody is black. If one white person walked in here, the energy shifts a little bit for me. Because there's things you're being married to have been your whole. home having that dynamic would be a bit off-putting for me. There's always things that you have to think about that you wouldn't necessarily

when you're with a black man. Like me being a black woman. There's just certain things, you know, that I don't have to say, well, well, what he thinks about that? I have to ask that question. Or I have to, you know, about your family. Yeah. I can't speak to a relationship, but for me, he did get whiter over time.

Wider. Yeah. I will agree. When I first met him, I was like, when I first, I was like oh this is some living Lovita Loka like Ricky Martin type shit then we play basketball and then like a couple of things happened and just overall his whole thing like we'd be in there in the front chilling doing all kinds and he's in the back like doing sit-ups and like he was like I'm like he got whiter to me maybe he was pretending there was a lot of like at first he's right like trying to be down

because in my first met him he was you know he was all he's like you know he listened to boys to men and all of that shit like that and then at the end by the end he was white I mean but listening to Boyce him in. I'm just saying he was into 90s R&B. We met him the same age. That was a shift. There was a shit. I mean,

he was into Kendrick Lamarred as one. He voiced him in. I never interrogated his blackness in terms of his black culture. There's no blackness. Well, listen, what I'm saying. When I interrogate cultural blackness, I don't use like, I don't use like, you know, all these different pop culture things. Yeah.

Like, what do you know about black people? What do you know about black people interpersonally, historically, and all in that stuff? But it did when I would talk to him I would tell that he was You know trying to put on a good face for rage And then as time went on That just stopped Yeah I mean

These are questions Yeah I mean that's when they got bad But these are questions that I would ask I wouldn't marry anybody that didn't I mean obviously during our marriage Black Lives Matter really You know took off Because we got married in 2019

So that whole year was different Living in Miami He would go to protest with me He would ask me questions he would, you know, say, you know, can I post this? Is this okay? Would ask, like, ask for explanations. So, like, I appreciated that. And I mean, he has to. That's another, that's another, that's another, but that's another part of once you do that, they're not you. They don't live your experience. I don't care how down they are. So that's so, that's just a real,

like, that's a reality of dating somebody that's outside of your race. Would you date outside of your race again? I've come home, back home. Okay. This is where I am right now. Okay, okay. Can you marry a white woman and love black women? I feel like that's a question for that particular black man to answer. I can tell you how it looks. I'm asking for Tiffany Cross. So,

I think if a black man who lives in Bismarck, North Dakota, happen to marry a white woman, then perhaps you love black women, but this is who you met. I think a black man, who lives in Washington, D.C., who marries a white woman, I would have questions about how he feels, not about black women, but about how he feels about himself.

How he feels about himself? Yeah. Because if you're in D.C. or Atlanta or something like that, and there's a Bernard? I mean, that's what I'm trying to figure out. Do you know? Right. You got a white girl?

Lebanese. How have we never? How have we never? How have we never? All the talks we've had. My brother's fiance is white. Okay. So, Jim.

Your brother's fiance is white. Y'all jump in now. So, Bernard, you fucking sell out on what Tom has to me. I'm from Chicago. You know, you know. You left me out here. On God. So Ray's going out here.

Struggling. She described you. You fake ass. I never knew this, by the way. Well, you should be hurt. Aren't you from Baltimore? He's from D.C. He's from D.C.

And he got a white woman. And now Tiffany Cross has called you out. Defend you. Yeah, I got some questions. Get him. Tiffany. Just tell me how that happened. Like, how did y'all meet?

We met through my best friend at her Valentine's Swarway party. I was doing bribed gig, and we was talking. She was a paralegal at the L.A. courthouse, and we just kept bribing and talking. May I ask how old you are? I'm 28. Okay. Had you dated non-black women before? Only Latinas, but everybody else is black.

Only Latinas? Yeah, I only got black Latinos, and then she's my first out-of-state. Wait, when you say only Latinas, like that is non-black women, yeah? Mm-hmm. So you had only dated Latinas before. So maybe I should ask, have you ever dated? No, no. The only races I ever dated in my life are black Latinos and Lebanese.

That's what I meant to say. Oh, black latinas and Lebanese. So are you saying black, comma, Latina? Are you saying Afro-Latinas? No, black comma, Latino. Tell me about the ratio. Did you date, like, one black girl and then like the- No, I'm from D.C., so it's all chocolate city.

We didn't have like white people in my school And you got to L.A. and was like, yippee. I mean, I have to try new flavor. See what I said about it happened to L.A.? Yeah. Not yippy. It's just, um, I met a lot of black women out here that didn't want to be black.

Oh, like shit. So that's another thing to. What does that look like? They don't classify themselves as black women. What do they say? Yeah. Are they black? Like monoracial black women?

No, they literally would like renounce their whole black and they'd be like, I'm not black. Bernard, we're going to have to have this conversation. I don't know. Denounce the blackness. What are you talking about? No, we're in the deep water now. We're going to talk.

We're going to save you. I can't put the little thing. What are you talking? What are you talking? What are you talking? Are you took the mic away from him? Jay did. A black woman did.

A black woman took the microphone. Jay's brother is married. Jay. Yes. So you got a little biracial nieces and nephews. Y'all holding out, by the way. They don't talk about my nephews. I'm asking.

They're by racial. They're by racial. They buy racial nephews. They buy racial nephews. I want to say. Wait a second. No, wait, wait, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You got by racial nephews.

You got by racial nephews. So you got by racial nephews. I don't want to hear y'all talking to me about it. Because in my family, we keeping it the fuck real. What you mean? Keeping it the fuck real. What you mean by that, though? We keeping it the fuck.

What do you mean by that? I mean by that. I mean, it's not like we haven't been with white women. But like, go ahead. Yes. Because that is. My father. Shit, don't bring up my goddamn dad.

Okay, don't bring up my dad. I just gave the look for Tiffany said we are. They're engaged. Okay. But they do have a kid. Okay. And a second one on the way. Okay.

Kids name is Bethany. How did we get there? Robbie. Andre. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh.

Oh, shit. Okay. Um, I, I will say, and, you know, obviously, like, only my brother can really speak to his experience, but from being his sister, I, we both grew up going to predominantly white schools. And we were some of the only black kids in our class.

And I feel like a lot of the black men who I even went to school with, because we're seven years apart, but we went to the same high school. So even the black men that were in my grade, I felt like, it's one of those kind of like assimilating situations where oftentimes if you're the only black kid in a school or, you know, in a certain environment, you oftentimes feel the need to assimilate to whatever culture is the majority. And I feel like a lot of the black men I witness do that. And because of that, it was kind of like they see their white friends being with white women. let's give it a try.

Let's try it out. Let's see. Because also, too, I just don't think there was enough black women around them to really like want to engage in that way, in like a relationship way. We were all friends. Everybody hung out together. All of the black kids and the private schools all hung out together. It was like that.

But I think when it came to relationships, these black men had different. I don't know. It was just kind of like they were more attracted to that. Yeah, I know. I mean, a lot of parents. go through that. You know, you do well. You send your kids to a, you know, a private school. And now the black boys want to ask out the non-black girls. My challenge, I'll say, about having kids in these situations, particularly when it comes, because somebody's biracial,

you're the BVI person over there. If somebody's biracial, like my question is always, who black? Is your mama black? Where are you raised by a black woman? Because I do think white women raising black children, it gives them a space and a conversation where they have no place being. So I am concerned when I think about white women raising black children. To overwhelming majority of racial relationships. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Again, we have some of the highest endogamy rates. But for the people that do do it. Right. Yes. Yeah. I can understand that because I feel like I was very much of a similar mindset, especially when it came to my nephews.

Yeah. I think the biggest thing around changing that conversation is that, making sure that the black women who are his family are very much a part of his life. And I think that's the biggest thing. Me and my brother are very, and his fiance, too. His fiance is very much making sure he understands his family heritage is where he comes from. But I think putting my nephews in places and environments where they can learn more about

who they are as a black person, I think is super important. And I think just about being supportive. and making sure me as a black woman, I'm in his life so he can understand that relationship that he can have with black women, you know what I mean? And not making it so much about, because, I mean, regardless, if the mom's white, the mom's white, she's not going to have, she's not going to be able to do certain things. So her, making sure that there are black women in his life is more important than anything. Yeah.

Good job, Jade. Yeah. I mean, I'll tell you. That was great. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Jay. But I think Jay is the exception and not-of-year-old.

Because a lot of these kids are around white families and when it comes to things, like even just as simple as our hair, but also how to maneuver in society. And then this whole like new term from respectfully from Megan Markle, but of like being mixed race. And it's like, no, you are not mixed race. You are a black child. And you should know that. And we should instill that in people.

I think to me there is a difference of biracial people who have a black mom having raised them or a white mom. I think I can more, in most cases, always tell. Look, this is what I'm saying. So if Rachel, thank goodness you didn't because the divorce would have been messier. But had you had a kid, your kids would have, they had a black mom. So you would have raised them a certain way. You would have raised them as black children.

Yeah. And she only had sisters. Yeah, my sister. They would have been surrounded. Which again speaks to the sanctity of black women and the importance of black women. So I'll say this. Two questions. Number one.

I am a black culture purist, meaning that I believe that the safety of particularly American blackness is in black culture. And it's in gatekeeping black culture and it's in preserving black culture because whatever. I won't even go into a whole thing. But so that kind of involves itself into this entire conversation. This conversation that we're having, though, is essentially, I'll just ask everyone in the room about people in love. It's about people that are in love, that have found love, and the one time they get on this earth. I know that I make a lot of jokes and all of that stuff,

but I honestly could not give a fuck less who people are involved with in their relationships, right? I love to see black couples, though. I just love to see black couples and black families, and I go people to see a bunch of black families. But what I'm saying is, how much of this conversation, just the interracial dating part of it,

the interracial marriage part of it, all of this stuff, the biracial part of it, all the jokes. How much of it actually really matters? And why? What do you, of this conversation? What I mean is we just, we litigated, so we litigated Rachel.

So every, as we litigated Rachel, we litigated Bernard, we litigated her, her brother. And then I guess you got somebody in your family. My brother had two kids with a white woman. Milkman. So, so, so, so, so, so,

so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, we're talking about all of this stuff. question how much of this is actually important to discuss I know it's very funny to me it's always funny it always looks weird but how much of it doesn't come up in my life a lot go okay like at all i barely get into this in the i mean i'll accept to say that black men overwhelmingly marry black women but i'm not really sitting around with my friends talking about black men with white women i'm like if that's where you want to be then gone my only point is to me it says more about how that black man feels about himself.

What does it say? I, too, I think, about Bernard. I, even hearing, um, Bernard, it's saying that he dated a lot of Latinas and other non-black women, I do find that curious, um, because there is something safe about, of the unit between a black man and a black woman. Um, so I, you're also a lot younger than me, like half my age. So maybe this is just a different time period. But from my perspective, like, I drink, I play spades, I'd say things that we say among ourselves.

There's nothing that's so appealing to me that I would want to go in my own home and feel like I don't have that relaxation in my own skin and in my community. I ain't never seen a white man fine enough. I ain't never seen a non-black man fine enough that I would risk the magic that exists when I'm with my people. the comfort that exists when I'm with my people. There ain't no amount of money. They ain't nobody slinging it hard enough. Where I'm going to even put, yes, that I'm going to even put that at risk. I love black people like I love myself.

And there's something beautiful about when we come together in spirit and in love and ascend to a space. I think it takes me to an ancestral space. And that with everything happening in society right now, one, is how we survive this 400-year nightmare. And two, with everything happening in our society right now, I crave more than anything, comfort and safety. So if I have to, if I can't in my most vulnerable place, meet somebody in that ancestral peace, then it will be a permanent disconnect. You always had some level of disconnect with this man. That's true. So I wonder, maybe it is a generational thing.

You know, maybe there's some erosion of that with, you know, younger people, I don't know. But yeah, it's not something that I could imagine entertaining. And you know, I didn't realize how disconnected I felt in certain ways until it was over. Yeah. And I dated a black man. Started dating, like, well, going on dates and then dated a black man. And I was like, that's what was missing. Yes.

There is, I just relaxed in a completely different way. But I didn't get it in the moment. There was just something that felt, hmm. But to answer your question about how much of it really matters, I also clearly am a person who believes love and be with whoever that you want. My biggest thing is identity. And I think it matters in the sense of you losing your identity and you losing who you are in the relationship because you are partnered or married to someone.

And I think that's something that's important that has to be talked about. And I think that's how you get, you know, the exception in the sense that what you're talking about or I mean even using myself in my my own relationship I just I have seen people completely lose themselves yeah their blackness in a relationship and to me then it's worth talking about and then and because that also talks about gaykeeping and boundaries and things like that that we've talked about on this podcast and you hear people say like non-black people you know especially couples it's like you guys talk about race a lot more than other people well like who fucking ray for you. Like, of course you don't talk about it because it don't come up in your life. Why would you be

talking about it all the time? Like, we are confronted with it all the time. And so I want a place to be able to exchange in my righteous indignation, in my anger. I want a safe space to talk about that. And every single day, there's a monstrosity occurring in our country that is rooted in white domination, that they are united in my obstruction. And so I just, I don't know. Like, ain't no way I'm about to be in these times not with somebody when the shit goes down like I want to be intertwined fingers like we are locked arm and arm because you understand better than most just like we understood when we saw shit going down we understood better than most what was coming so if I'm not with a partner who can understand what's going on if I got to teach you about it I mean it's just

not going to be a good situation for me and you still feel safe with black men 100% I never not felt safe I'm talking about. Hell yeah. Let me ask you a question about a white man, and I had to ask you this. Recently, we talked about here on the podcast. Scott Jennings flipping out and cursing out Adam, Adam Mockler, on Abby's show.

Yeah. Okay. So Adam was hitting him in the goddamn gut with facts. Yeah. And Scott, that's right, Tiff. Justice. Yeah. Yeah, I'm like, yeah.

Adam was, Adam was. hitting them with facts and Scott short-circuited. Scott short-circuit. As he often does, that wasn't the first time. It wasn't the first time. I've been on set with him when he said, I don't like your stupid fucking question. I've heard him say all kind of silly shit on that.

As a matter of fact, I actually was, I'll be honest with you, unaware of the amount of times that it actually happened because it's never happened when I've been there. It happened. Did they always cut it out of the broadcast?

No, no, no, no, no. Because I saw another one when he put his finger in the face of Michael, Eric Dyson. Right? Dr. Dyson. I remember that. Fantastically handled that in a way. Doss Discourse, y'all know, he got Scott right one time.

Okay, you had been very vocal about how we should act and behave on these shows or how you, more specifically, should act and behave on these shows. And Scott insulted you publicly on one of these shows and went to a place that everybody thought was fucked up. We were talking about Greenland. Okay. And he was making, he was like, I've never said anything, something he was saying, he's never said.

And I was like, I'm not talking about you. You're irrelevant to the point I'm making. And he said, well, you got fired from your job. So how relevant are you? He was waiting to get that off. Yeah. So when you saw that, one, your response to it in the moment about his behavior. And then two, what do you think, I mean, Rachel had a conversation?

about people like Scott being on those shows and those roles. Well, one, there's a lot of criticism about Abby's show. And I push back. I think it's well-deserved criticism because, you know, Abby will come out and defend it. But I think some of it is unfair because Scott appears on every show across that network. So it's like, are you mad at Abby? Are you mad at CNN?

He's a contributor. Right. They put him everywhere. I could never get away with that. that behavior and still show up and choose to be on whatever show I want to. So I'm just saying if we're going to have criticism, I think we should criticize the network as a whole. They have routinely, and Scott's not the first one. I remember they would put on Rick Santorum all the time, who said incredibly disrespectful things about black people.

I could go through the list of people who they pay six and seven figures who sit on that, on many sets and say deplorable things. So, you know, I think that, and I think that, and I I've even read remarks about executives praising Scott and celebrating what they believe he contributes. They normalize white supremacy and treat it like it's okay. So I think it is reflected in their ratings. People are increasingly tuning out, not just in recent years, but over the years, there are a lot of cord cutters. And when you have networks that used to be reliable, used to be a place where you can go to for news, and they turn into the real housewives of CNN,

and they're like, we're going to put on somebody who is completely unintelligent and put them across from someone with an intellectual thought and present these things as though they are equal, on equal footing. I think we have enough intelligence where we're not going to watch that. So people might watch clips, but when you look at the sheer numbers,

like they are in the toilet. And so I find it deplorable. I'm a journalist by training. I have been for 26 plus, years I had my first byline when I was like 16. So to watch the industry as a whole celebrate that level of ignorance is heartbreaking. Another part of the heartbreak. I think for Scott, he gets paid more than some of the hosts at that network. That shows where they value. What Van and I talked about is showing up on set. I believe I'm shadow banned from CNN. I have no solid proof, but I believe. I had a few appearances schedule, and they canceled all of them. And to be honest, like, I hated the feeling that I got on that set.

So, but it's kind of like a dude that you don't even really like, and then he break up with you. He's like, oh, dang, well, like you in the first place. That's how it felt when they were like, oh, we're going to cancel your next season. I'm like, okay, fine. I believe the way he's allowed to persist and showing up on that network, which I think is part of reason they're like, we don't like you. Because I'm not there to make small talk with these people. Like, I don't fuck with these people. The second I walk in, I am not engaging you in conversation. I know very well who these people are. And I'm not going to make small talk with somebody who doesn't see my

humanity. So don't say shit to me in the green room. No, I don't want to record these little silly social media things of like, what food would you take off the Thanksgiving menu? It's like, yeah, I'm not talking about food. I'm thinking about the people in prison in this country and the people over in Seacot and Ice who are being starved to death. So that's my answer on food. I don't want to play these little silly fucking games while people are suffering. Second, don't turn to me during the commercial break and say a fucking thing to me. I don't like you. I don't give a shit where you got the vacation next week. I'm not here to make small talk with you. After we get off the set, don't say a fucking thing. Let me preemptively tell you. I don't give a shit where your

odes is thinking about going to college. I'm not your friend. This shit is not fucking performance for me. You know what I mean? And I think people aim they thrive, they thirst to go viral on these shows, as though it's entertainment. And I'm looking at the real shit that's happening. I'm looking, I live in a neighborhood that's surrounded by public housing. And I'm looking at the people suffering. I'm looking at people. This is happening when they shot a fucking nurse in the face, or a nurse in the back, rather, and a mom in the fucking face. And I'm supposed, and you're here advocating for that kind of policy. And I'm supposed to make small talk with you. I'm offended by your presence. I'm not.

going out drinking with you. We're not texting, trading little dog pictures and all that shit that people do. I don't like it. I don't like it. And so when I was on the set, yeah, it was a little uncomfortable for everybody. But guess what? I was unfucking comfortable the second I walked in the building and I have to sit across some white supremacists being treated like their fucking superheroes on a network just because people find that is entertaining. And nobody's saying that you have to have on people who just agree with you. That's not ever the suggestion because I've heard like the defense like, oh, but people are talking. Yeah, you can have a exchange of different ideas and ideology.

I would do that on my show. Other people do that on, you guys do it here. We're having conversation here. But to platform people who are rooted in your destruction is to me beyond defense. Can I ask you something? Are there any Republicans who aren't white supremacists? In these days, no. So then you can't have any Republicans or.

I think you can have whomever you want. But I think if you're going to have on, and I don't call them Republicans. anymore, they are right-wing extremists. Maga is right-wing extremist. If I'm going to have one of them on my show, then that's what we're going to talk about. We're going to go through policy by policy. As a journalist, I'm going to be prepared to do that.

And let me just say, Abby is a solid journalist. She comes out of the print world. She covered Capitol Hill. She was at Political, graduated from Harvard. Like, she is a solid, like, before she ever had this show, like Abby has always done solid work. Not the kind of work that I do. Like, what we do is different.

And I think there's an expectation that like Abby's supposed to be me or she's supposed to be joy or she, you know, we do different things. Like Abby is there to be straight down the middle and say, you know, this is what's what. She, her analysis looks different. And that's one of the rules in journalism, right? That one of the rules I had to buck because what is considered unbiased is rooted in what's white and male. I don't adhere to those rules. But I think, you know, Abby has a different training than I do. So, not just Abby, but we're talking about Abby show.

but I would say a whole lot of other anchors there too. If I'm having on one of these right-wing MAGA extremists, that he can sit across from me and answer policy by policy. We can start with the VRA, we can start with the CalA decision, we can start with the courts, we can start with Roe, we can go through it all. And I'm going to try to, my best to inform the audience and dismantle every single thing this stupid, half-witted, ignorant, racist person says. That to me is journalism.

and if you find it entertaining, fine. But that's different than platforming this person across from someone like me and presenting their racism as though it is informative and presenting their sexism and xenophobia as though it's intellect because it's neither. Isn't it? I agree. In the example you just gave,

wouldn't that be your job since you're on the panel with him as well? No, that should not be my job. So that also drives me crazy because I feel like it's my job when I'm on the set. I feel like I have to jump in and fact check. I feel like I have to jump in and say, I actually take issue with the premise of that question. But that is the host.

When you are in that host here, you are responsible for what's happening on the show. It cannot be, well, there's a thunderstorm outside. Tiffany, you say it's raining. Scott, you say it's sunny. Discuss. No, you're the fucking journalist. You're the host.

You get to say, we can emphatically say, it is thunderstorming outside right now. To present it at each other and say, now go at it. that is the complete opposite of your job. And I see that all the time across that network. I see lazy reporters asking questions in a way, no follow-up where they're like, well, we don't want to hurt the maga person's feelings.

We don't want to put them on the spot with something. I find, no, that should not be my job as a panelist. So I find that she does do that. Just to, I find that Abby does. Does what? She fact checks the shit out of people all the time. Yeah, I think it's hard in real and live. to catch everything, but I think Abby catches as much as she can't.

I think my point more... But she's platforming people who are liars. CNN. CNN is platforming people are liars. My broader point is this. First of all, and I'll tell you where I'm coming from. Number one, I think all of them are liars. I think the people that got... All of who?

I think the political establishment is full of a liar class. Okay, I'm a little concerned, because it sounds like you're putting right-wing mega extremists in the same category as like. I'm putting a lie. I'm putting a lie in the same category. So like a lie.

But you're saying all of them are liars. I'm saying that they, I'm saying that this is what I mean by this. So there's, I don't know how I said. I think they're all liars. I think most of the people, I think the people that got up there and said,

the people that got up there and said, there's nothing wrong with President Biden. Like, he's not slowing down at all. I think they were lying. I think they realized that. But who are you talking about? Like, who was saying that? Who never said it?

If nobody. said it, then I'm wrong. But they all said it. So, but they all. Like, I just don't know what you're talking about. If no one said it, man, but when you say that, like, whoever said that, but you're putting new things in the same category and the shit that they lie about and President Biden, those are two completely different things. I agree. Okay. So. But what I'm saying is, though, is that when I have been on sets before, where we have been talking about, a lot of the things to me, a lot of the subjects have been. But, but what I'm saying is, though, is that when I have been on sets before. Yeah. Where we have been talking about, a lot of the things to me, a lot of the subjects have been. A lot of, based in political dogma and what it is that your side is telling you to believe. Now, certain things right now that we're talking about that directly affect us, the lies hit us very hard and they have to be dispelled. But if I was on a show like, if I was on a show like that, when I am on a show like that, remember one time, me and Scott went back and forth because Scott said something like, I was going to criticize Barack Obama, but Van just did it for me.

The reason why I criticized Barack Obama in that case was because Barack Obama was there to be criticized. He had said something that I had disagreed with and I was going to criticize it, right? Scott took that as a win because in his tradition, I am not supposed to say anything on the show to ever criticize President Obama because that's not my function on the show. But my function on the show is not to repeat anyone's dogma, political dogma. It's to give my opinion on something. And if that is Barack Obama in the wrong or anybody else in the wrong, that's what the deal is. So in the entire complexity of that show or that ecosystem to me, I think there are things that are universal truths.

And I think that there are things that are lied about. I have a fundamental issue with you like putting Scott in the same category as a person he's going to car. Okay. So what am I missing? Because you're saying like they're all liars and it's political dog love. And I don't think that's true. What I'm saying is if, how can I say this? The whole show is about lies.

Like the whole back and forth, the whole back and forth that exists in that, and the whole show is about trying to point out why the other person is lying. So you're saying it's performative. Right. Well, that might be, so that may be some people's function on the show, but that's not ever my function on the show. I understand. So what I'm saying is if we get. That's not my function.

When I'm on that show, I'm there to inform the audience. I try not to even engage them as much. I don't even want to traffic and give in my opinion. But what I'm saying is to me, sometimes performing the audience, informing the audience, is shredding the misinformation that's coming from the other side. At times, yes. So to me, everybody's getting a set of talking points. Everybody's getting, well, not getting a set of talking points.

I have never gotten a set of talking points. I understand that. Well, man. Because what are you saying? Tiffany, Tiffany, Tiffany, Tiffany, Tiffany, Tiffany, Tiffany. I'm just trying to understand your point. Now listen, I'm going to keep it like all the way real. I am on, maybe you don't get talking points.

I'm not saying you specifically. Never in my life. But I have been on. left lists full of dozens of people that are on lists talking about how things should be discussed, like how we should talk about something. I'm not suggesting that those things don't exist. Right. But what you said is all of them.

Okay. So maybe I'm misunderstanding. So what I'm saying is this, like I know for certain with 100% certainty that stuff happens and then there are meetings where people are, where it is discussed, how this should be talked about, right? And so when I hear a litany of people on the right all saying the same thing, I know why they're saying it. Because they have those same messages and those same groups and those same things where they are discussing how something to be should be talked about. So what the only difference is normally I agree with the majority of the talking points that are coming out from the side of these people that are on the other political in the other political home, right?

Okay. So let me just offer a little context there. There is no secret that there are D&C talkers that come out, RNC talkers that come out. Putting those two things in the same category, okay, fine. I'm not a party person, never happened. I'm never in my life worked as a party operative. So maybe you have been on set with people who are D&C party party or whatever in company or community of people who are party operatives or who are part of cohorts where they're giving context or they're saying here is the context for it. When I have been in spaces like that, I typically exit as I don't consider, I'm not a talking head person. I am a journalist. So I'm not a part of that. What I'm concerned with, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, it sounds like you're saying these are two buckets of the same thing. That maga extremist talking points are the same thing as, you know, Iiana Presley coming on and talking about something. And I don't believe that's true. It's kind of like this whole idea of like,

Republicans are better at like messaging and strategy. Like, of course they better at that because they talk into a bunch of dumbass people. And they have one common goal. Their one common goal is white power, white domination. I think on the Democratic Party side, it's a bigger tent. So you might have an Ayanna Presley who is on a complete opposite as Hakeem Jeffries.

They are not talking from the same playbook, so to speak. Like there are people out there who lead with their conviction. But these are elected officials. These are politicians. When I am on the show, I'm operating as neither. I am there to, in my goal when I show up on that set, is to inform the audience. So if we're going to be talking about the FCC that day, nine times out of ten, I've been on the phone earlier with somebody who works at the FCC.

If we're talking about a piece of policy, if we're talking about Middy's policy or foreign policy, more than likely, I've talked to somebody in the Democratic majority or somebody who works on foreign policy, somebody at the State Department, somebody who covered it, somebody who's been to the region to gain context. It is never from a talking point. And I don't believe that everybody who goes on that show is, you go on that show. You're not speaking from talking points. But even if they are, I just think there is a difference between what right-wing extremists are doing and saying. It is not strategy. It is simple regurgitation of whatever this MAGA Mar-Ago golfer is telling them to say. I don't think it is intellectual thought process. They have entertainers on there. They have

actors on it, they have comedians on there. I don't believe those people are pulling from talking points. I think they are just there to shit out their mouth and say something random for the purposes of entertainment. Let me be clear on what I'm saying. Obviously, the substance of what's being said is different, right? Yes. Obviously, we would all agree with that.

To me, the motivation a lot of time is not. You have your own motivation. I might have my own motivation. The show exists in a framework of right versus left. Most of the shows, most of those shows exist in a framework of right versus left. They exist in a framework. Hey, the people that are on there that are not going to go against what President Trump is saying, to me, are operating from the exact same political tradition of people who are not going to publicly rebuke any Democratic president.

Because that's not their function on the show. their function on the show is to come on there and present a right versus left debate because the people who don't really get platformed on those shows are people who are far to the left of the center of the Democratic Party. They never get on the show, right? And they never get on the show because they don't have the backing of the center of the, their ideas are not mainstream enough. Like their ideas don't have a political home.

even if those ideas are the most humanistic ideas, the most easily accessible ideas for people to change their lives and stuff like that. So what I'm saying is I get what you're saying about the MAGA movement. I think we all agree about that. I think the criticism of the shows themselves is a little different because the show would have to be completely let's devote all of our time to like shredding President Trump in his agenda, which I would be in favor of. You would be in favor of. You would be in favor of. But that's not how they ever go. I think the show should be about informing people, not an echo chamber of like, they call it debate.

I mean, I call it nonsense. You know, I don't even think it has to be like, let's shred Donald Trump's agenda. You know, it's like this. If you put out all the lies of the agenda, you're shredding it. Yeah. Yes. But I just think there is also other things happening in the world that weren't discussion. And I think it's only in Western media, particularly American media,

where you see that kind of thing happening. But there are so many other outlets outside of our region that actually do a good job of informing. What you're describing is not new. I think putting, you know, these two opposite sides where it's right versus left, that's not news to me. And CNN did used to actually be news. They did actually use to fulfill the function.

There was always shows that did this. But those are like one or two shows that would happen that were still different from what we're seeing now. Right. They were like opinions, debate shows. but overwhelmingly. So I worked there when he was there. Right.

So I got my start at CNN. They've existed. Hold on. There was always Hannity and Combs. There was always shows like there. There have always been those shows where they've done that. And so I'm saying I completely, just to put it in this from my side, I completely agree with your saying, but with what you're saying.

But I'm saying is then in that case, you're not going to be able to platform anybody who is a Republican because there's no one who is a mainstream Republican right now. that is going to be worth platforming on that show that's not going to go along with what the... It's a circus act. Okay. Fair enough. And I think that it's...

And I think that it's meant to be. I think it's meant to be an entertaining show, which is why I have my thoughts about Scott Jennings, and I agree with everything it was that you were saying. So I'm going to tie this into a question and then back into the book. When you see what is happening on Abby's show and you see the change in...

CNN or some of these traditional networks, even going back to the group chat that you have and the women that are in there who have had, who have been treated unfairly by some of these traditional networks and have lost their jobs. What do you think the answer is? Do you think that you've seen what Joy's done? You've seen what Don Lemon is done. I mean, I know we're talking about black women, but I just more mean so black people in the sense of should we remove ourselves from these traditional networks, these traditional spaces, and move towards independent media. So we can have the show that you're talking about, like the other outlets that aren't even from, you know, within this country. Is that what we should be moving to? Because we're always going to be

treated unfairly, like you talk about in your book. You did everything. You know, you worked hard. You put in that you had the numbers, all the things had the audience and still it wasn't enough. And then you give the example of Rashida, who did play the game, and that still wasn't enough. Should we be moving away from it? Should we even try to be a part of these networks and these shows? I think we are moving away from it. So when you say we as, there's we as hosts, and then there are we as viewers.

We as viewers I know are. Increasingly. But hosts are because we've been kicked out. It's not that we were moving away from it. What did you say? Yeah, not enough jobs. Yeah. Well, there are enough jobs, but our kind is not walking.

Right, right, right. You know? But independent media also comes with some challenges too. Because, you know, I meet a lot of people who are like, I want to be a journalist too. And I'm wondering, like, do you know what that means? Because nowadays, if you have a podcast microphone and a camera, people are calling themselves journalists. And that is different.

Just it's not that journalists can't give their opinion. But if you've never navigated a newsroom, like, they're actually, it's a craft to what we do. There actually is certain rules about informing and sourcing. And, you know, if you've not navigated it. at a newsroom, you don't know that. And even saying something is like, oh, I'm looking into this. And then, like, you go read an article about it. You're not looking into it. You're reading the reporter's work who has looked into it. So I'm a little concerned about this move to independent media because journalism is a group project. Like you do, I need people to check my worst instincts.

I need people to fact check me. Just because I talk to one person at the FCC, somebody else has to double check that. We have to make sure I'm presenting that information properly. According to this one person, this is what I know. I'm concerned about that going away. In terms of Joy and Don, they didn't leave those networks broke. You know, Don left CNN with millions of dollars. So he had the infrastructure to build this network. They didn't want Joy so bad. They were paying her not to come to work. So Joy left with her contract, the pay from her contract still intact. Her husband is an engineer. That's how they met. She had a studio built in her house. And she had been so battered at that network, she was ready to go. Like when she left on a Monday by Tuesday, she was ready

to press the gas. So as I'm looking at the landscape, I am really trying to figure out and navigate what does that look like. Roland Martin, you know, Roland Martin put in a lot of work. He built a very elaborate. We didn't go see the studio. I want a van to go see Roland Martin's studio in D.C. because it is very elaborate. Like, he has equipment everywhere. It is amazing what he does. And he makes it available for people to rent out. Michael Harriet with contraband camp. It's like the Black Atlantic. And you should. write something for contraband camp band by the way but it is like a great platform you know um so those folks i'm like yes i trust that those people are doing the right thing they have great infrastructure

they have a staff when people ask me all the time just do it like just get in front of your camera and do it i don't know what that looks like you know i'm trying to figure it out i'm trying to figure out i'm trying to figure out what that might look like but i would rather do that than go back into institutions that really trivialized my very long career. And I mean, I write about it in the book of like my lessors, like my peers, trying to explain to me how news works, you know, the disrespect. But whatever disrespect I navigated in the newsroom, you've navigated that in a law office. You've navigated that in a production office.

Or we'll get into it, but like TMZ, like you navigated disrespects. precisely there and just people working with people who didn't see your humanity who didn't respect you there are people who navigate that in doctors offices people who are associates in retail going through all the same things so and you know I am not working in television but they're close to 400,000 black women who are not working in their career fields of choice where they were you know levels had levels of expertise so it feels like we are all navigating a work environment that is very hostile towards us. So I don't want to, you know, get up here and sound like, you know,

woe is me because I'm looking around me and there are so many other black women in this exact same space, which is why I didn't want to write a memoir. I wanted to just share, here's a little bit about what I'm going through, but here's a pullout picture of what we're all going through. And collectively, none of it's fair. What happened to me was not fair, but what's happening to all these amazing women being kicked out of the federal government? That wasn't fair either.

What happened to you, Van? was not fair. So we all have a right to be angry about that. But maybe from that anger, some level of innovation will happen. Or maybe humanity has just peaked and this shit is about to be a rap. But you know, it's already happened, though.

Like, to me, the most reliable news sources I have are all independent. All. Like what she was saying as a audience. No, no. Like Zateo, drop site. Yeah. The majority report.

Like, the places that I go for news right now. And these are places, These are people and we've had some of them on. If you're talking about like Ryan Grimm or like, you know, Medi obviously left with a lot of, like if you're looking at these papers, these are these are people that are like doing reporting that legitimately nobody else is doing. Yeah, Zetao.

Al Jazeera is still some legacy media outlets who's doing solid work. And I will say pro-publica is doing the Lord's work every day. I mean, people have to stop like watching and start reading. But ProPublica does amazing work. I am still a New York Times reader, a daily New York Times reader. I think their political coverage is shitty,

but they do amazing reporting in other spaces. I'm a Reuters person. And Al Jazeera definitely, just to get out of Western media, it definitely offers a more global perspective of what's happening. BBC is very much Western media. I think they're very biased. I don't think Al Jazeera, the BBC is Western media, Channel 4, all of these places.

I go to like all of these places for news. I tried not to. The only reason I try not to is because they are all so skewed in their perspective. So I will read like South China Morning Post, you know. Just to get the Western media is all allied with Israel, you know, so they will report on like three tragedies that happened in Israel and ignore the 30 tragedies that happened with Palestinians. I mean, you see what's happening now with Nicholas Christoph's reporting in the New York Times where he talked about what the IDF is doing to Palestine and they're trying to like destroy his reporting. So he's not a part of their political coverage. but it's like this is our way to disrupt these biased perspectives

that I think for so long have been tolerated in this room. Which is to me, like why independent media? Because that was the only place when I really started getting deeply into what was happening. It's the only place I could go. Yeah. The place you could go was the day. The only place you could go was drop-side. And they're reporting on things that nobody else was reporting on.

Okay. So every Tiffany Cross, Van Lathen conversation has to devolve into some sort of argument. all the time. It was not an argument. Van thinks they're all lying. Tiffany thinks half of them. Well, you were putting them in the same category.

I just wasn't. That's not what they heard. I'm not putting them in the same category. I'm not putting them in the same category of lie, but the Democrats lie. Do the Democrats lie? Yes. I'm not a party person.

Like, I'm definitely, I do not work for the Democratic Party. I've disagreed with people. Did he say I was a party person? No, he just loves to do this. That's what he loves to do. I am not a part of him.

I never said that. Rachel loves him. Rachel loves Trump. You think he's funny? She's one of the Trump is funny people. She likes him. I have said he has said something that has made me chuckle. I don't think he's funny.

We laughed to keep him crying with Trump. We've had these. We were on the phone for hours, Van and I. I don't even want to get into that one. I'm not even, I don't even want to bring that. I don't even want to get into that one. We were not debating. That was like 30 minutes of the conversation, but we were talking about other things.

about life and navigate this this conversation we're having about navigating life yeah in in this space and I called you to ask your opinion and advice on like because that's I'm trying to figure it out I'm like yeah like tell me how the podcast world is for you like tell me about like your career path here we were chatting so then I actually we were on the phone debating the whole time it wasn't we started talking about the tax code we started talking about like all different types of shit it was a one I enjoy the conversation that I enjoyed the conversation that I enjoyed the conversation I enjoy it too. I always do. I enjoy this conversation.

It's a fantastic conversation. I love it. Now they're going to call you and they're going to book you. They're going to go. We're going to put the pressure on them because let me tell you something and I really truly believe this. Seriously, I believe that there is a cohort of black female voice that is being purposefully culled from the media space.

Purposefully. When I say purposefully, I'll tell you why. because they were too culturally influential. The information was one thing, but the idea of this particular woman in this particular age group with this particular set of politics was very dangerous and destabilizing. And I watched it happen over a course of years. Y'all think I'm back in my conspiracy theory shit.

I'm not. I'm telling you guys to look between 18 and 19 and look to now. It was, there was intent. Yeah. And there was, I'm just being for real. There was intent because there was a coalescing that was happening. There was an awakening that was happening. And when it was coming from this group of women, they were able to do something that I'm sometimes not able to do, is just continuously come back with love and with energy, but remind you how important the times are.

And they were all together, too. And they were feeding each other. And I'm telling you, I've told you mail this before, somebody said no. I'm just being for real. Like somebody said no. So that I do believe. I believe in debate, though. So you got to put the people on the shows, Tiffany.

You and I have debate. Right. You know, I mean, some of the debates we had, you have a perspective. I have a perspective. Your perspective is like you is warranted. You have experience in what you're saying. You're, you are a prime position. We won't get into it.

No, hell no. One of the debates we were having was about a Joe Button podcast. We won't get into it. We won't get into it. Mark and Flip and that's a very important dynamic. You know, Mark did my book talking Philly. That's a very important dynamic to see them two brothers talking. I don't disagree with that.

But your perspective on it is warranted as a black man and somebody who listens to the show. You know, you had, I'm interested in your thoughts. We could have that perspective. and my perspective, I think, is valid. Now, if we're talking and like you're trying to tell me about European markets and, you know, like, the impact that the closing of the strait is going to have on European markets, I kind of feel like, why is Van Leithenbook to talk about that particular topic? And I shouldn't be opposite him weighing in on that conversation at all. That is what we see happening on CNN, not debate from experts. who have any right to be having those conversations.

They put on foolishness. Well, that's true, but I will say that, like, I'm an expert on that motherfucker. I got straight updates every day. I'm listening to all you want to talk about how wide the street is, where the stuff is coming from, Iran's capability. I'm an expert on that motherfucker.

Rachel, you have my greatest hope and sympathy and gratitude for navigating this podcast with man. I'm into that straight. You got a piece of it. You got a piece of it. I'm into that straight every day, baby. Shout out to all the people out there. I'm into that.

You gave that example about that thunderstorm. I said, is he talking about us? It's raining. That's us. Yeah. But that is, I think that's why people tune in because you both have a healthy exchange of ideas and ideology. You're not insulting each other.

You know, it's just, well, you insult. We bicker. We're like family. I think that's fine. Nobody else better not say nothing to her. That's how we move. That is like my whole point. That's my whole point.

He is that way. As always, great conversation. I'm telling you, Van knows. I was like, man, your podcast is the one I'm most excited about being on. So both you guys, I can't thank you enough. This has been great. All the love. I'm not on the back of the book, though.

I know all of these people. You didn't give me a blur. Tell everyone where they can get the book. You can get the book everywhere books are sold. But this is what I've been saying because I'm guilty of this too. Like, you look at the book and it's like, oh, let me go to Amazon, do your thing. But Jeff Bezos. funds a lot of these shitty policies we're seeing.

And there are black bookstores everywhere all across the country that has a financial incentive in people putting our dollars there. And they can ship everywhere. So the dock bookshop in Dallas can ship to D.C. Mahogany Books in D.C. can ship to New Orleans. Baldwin and Company in New Orleans can ship to fruit. Where are we going?

Reparations Club here in L.A. Van and I will be in reparations club. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yes. So Van, Van, I'm very excited. Van and I are doing our book talk at Reparations Club on May 16th, 15th, May 15th, Van and Jamel and I will be in conversation. I asked Van months ago.

And honestly, when I was done right in the book, I thought it would be a great conversation for you and I to have. That's how we ended up talking about the podcast and everything, because I also wanted to make sure one, what's around two. So I was like, man, and Rachel would be good together. And so Jamel Van and I And I hope you can make it, Rachel, if you come, I'll put a microphone in your hand,

but I know I've monopolized your time. But I hope people tune into the book tour. The book tour has been selling out all over the country, so I'm very pleased with that. I told these guys I was heartbroken because I didn't make the New York Times best seller list. You just told people not to get the book on Amazon. No, that is not the only place.

Independent bookstores is a really great way to make the list. Exactly. Because people buy a bulk on these. on these other sites and that's why they get the politics and pros like all those they are New York Times. Shout out to Christon Trotman too. Yes, Chrishawmint. Who is my editor a publisher? It's not common for a black woman to be a publisher.

Krishon is the head honcho. So shout out to Krishon Trotman and shout out to Rachel and Van for the amazing conversation today. But also just for the platform you guys have built. You know? Thank you. Yeah. I don't know if you guys feel it because it's hard to feel it when you're in it. It is hard to feel it. Yes, but people tell me all the time. Like it's a cultural reference point. People bring it up all the time. People say, did you hear what Van and Rachel

talked about? Or like your clips where you're like weighing in on something, they go viral. People will send them to me. So you guys are part. I would rather people be tuning into this than some of the other platforms. Thank you. Thank you. We won't make you name it, but we do appreciate the love. That's all I'm making. That's enough podcast. Thank you to Tiffany Cross for joining us. Take your thing caps off. I'm not stop a learning. I'm Dan Lankton Jr. I'm Rachel and Lindsay.