Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Comedy, Music, and the Black Church With KevOnStage

Episode Date: February 27, 2026

Kevin Fredericks, aka KevOnStage, joins Van and Rachel for a discussion that touches on everything from fear of failure, jokes, the Black church, gospel, and hip-hop. (0:00) Intro (:38) Getting past fear (15:50) God’s sense of humor (26:23) Pressure to get political (32:20) Gospel, hip-hop, and R&B (52:37) Going to church (58:45) Scripture, sexuality and the church (1:29:50) Oversharing and overexposure (1:42:09) “The Christian I will not be” (1:46:12) Boyz II Men vs. Dru Hill  (1:49:59) Anita Baker Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: KevOnStage Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Jade Whaley Social Producer: Bernard Moore Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, y'all thought warriors. What is up? Higher Learning is on. Is Ivan Lathan Jr.? It's me, Rachel and Lindsay. We have a guest with us today. It is the entire podcast. Kev on stage joins us today.

I bump my lip on the mic. It's a great day. Thank you for having me. I've been wanting to do this for a long time. And we were just saying, before we got on, I can't believe you haven't been on the show. I know. We're fans.

We're fans. I never want to ask. I never want to. Yes. tough. How do you handle no? Ooh. It really depends. No often fuels me.

I can be sort of histrionic like Jordan. I can build chips to like, a nigga you gonna tell me no? You know what I'm gonna show you? Other times it's just be like, hey, nigga you really said no.

And then other times it's like worst they can say is no. Like when I was promoting churchy and I was like, man, I really got to get out there. like I was adopting the like it's already no if you don't ask. So if you ask and it still know, you didn't materially change anything. But if you ask and it's yes, you've actually gained something. So that's my latest one is like if you don't ask, it's already no anyway.

So at least ask. Worse you can do is it's already known. And people don't. I found people, like I'm asking a podcast, people are rarely like, no, I don't know who you are. And I would not like you on my podcast. That don't happen. But I think just fear of rejection. abandon it from inner child

just it sticks with you for a long time no matter how much your life has changed you really kind of got to retrain your mind because who I am it will be yes more likely right but that fear of no be like I don't want to be embarrassed I think in so many ways we're

still the little kids we were in elementary school you don't want to be embarrassed you don't want to be rejected from the cool kids you hope people are like nice and want to do you not want to do you but I want to have you but but that small hit of knowing rejection be enough to be like,

no, I'm good. I don't want to. I like this conversation because I feel like someone looks at you, right? And they see everything that you're doing, right? Like you seem like you're touching every single corner of entertainment. They would probably think you don't get nose at all anymore.

But they don't see all the nose that you got to build what it is that you have. What would you say? Because I think about this too. Like, what's the know you're so glad you got because it turned into something even greater. Man, I think probably the no, I'm so glad I got was no, we don't want to make

Churchy. I think Churchy got passed on a lot when I was pitching it prior to making it. And I was like, dang, I don't, I really want to make this. This as a, I want to make a TV show. I'd already been pitching a different show and a black executive really gave me some of the best pitching advice ever. I was bombing this pitch. I was pitching me, my brother, my wife.

for pitching this show about a funeral home. And she was just like, what? Not rude at all. She was just like, what do you know about funeral homes? And I was like, oh, I don't know. I just think this show will be funny. She was like, but have you worked in one? Like, what makes you uniquely capable of making this show?

And I was like, I literally just think it's funny. And she was like, I think your first pitch should be something that is important to you and something you know more than anybody else, right? So I was like, okay, that was actually really good advice. Shout out to the black executive, Sheila Duckworth, is the one who. who gave me that advice. So I went back and made Churchy, like the deck concept, pilot, all that type of stuff.

Couldn't get it, pitched to, I mean, probably for two years, maybe at least 18 months, probably two years. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And the last no, no, no, no. And the last no, this executive white dude, he was like, he said the same thing everybody else had been saying, like, we just don't know how middle America's gonna feel about it,

which is very coded language for like, are white people gonna watch a show? If they're not, by and large, we're not gonna make it, can't make it. So I was like, all right, bet. I'm going to save my brand new money. I'm going to save my money from Spectrum. I'm going to save my money from the road.

I'm just going to make this. I'm going to make eight episodes. At that time, I had kept on stage studios. I'm like, I'm going to make it for the app, and I'm going to prove that it works. And it was a humongous success for my app specifically, but it wasn't enough to, like, keep the app going. We still had all these other issues with,

I mean, the same issues Netflix and HBO Max have burnout. Now people watch all the stuff and turn it off, but we don't have the capital to compensate for that. Or like, we're making awards. We can make sense of it. So long story short, once I made that and made eight episodes of TV, so many doors that were closed were now open. Because now I'm not pitching you a TV show.

I'm asking you to license a show that's already made with proof that an audience likes this, right? So that door opened. And then I also proved to myself I can make it. like that was probably the most important thing even more than selling it like just you have made eight episodes of 30 minutes of television you have done that so once i did that i was like literally in the middle of that i was like nigg if i can do a tv show i can do a movie there's actually less work to do a movie because tv is eight episodes 30 minutes that's you know whatever the math

is 180 hours i mean 180 minutes of content whatever i don't i'm not good of math but a movie is only 90 minutes, right? So I'm like, it like opened my eyes. But then we were able to shout out to Jamal Henderson, Spring Hill. We were able to sell Jamal. Big guy, World Wide West of Hollywood. He hit me. It was like, yo, I watch this on your app. I think we can get this old. Got it. Licensed to BT. They picked up a second season. Then I re-did the same thing with Churchy. I made the hospital for my Patreon. BT ended up licensing it. And then made Safe Space, Tubey ended up licensing it. So it's like had I got yes on Churchy, I probably would be still doing the Hollywood like,

can you make this for me? Can I pitch this? Can I do that? And nothing wrong with that. But I think this path is a lot easier for me because to answer your question about no. The one know that's really hard is a creative no on something I know is right. And you know, the one thing about networks that I don't like is when they can say no because they bought it. And once they pay for it, they have the big joker.

Up until that point, I always had the big joker. So in Churchy season two, they were like, the code opens don't make sense, cut them out. That was a huge one. And I was like, but no, the black people know this, it's going to make sense? And they were like, nah. And I was like, this is a wrong choice, but they, like, we went back and forth on it for a good amount of time. And it was like, it's absolutely no. And I was like, ah.

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We've talked about three things that are really interesting here. The first is, if you're listening to me and you're, you in Atlanta, you in New Orleans, you come into LA, you're doing your thing. Man, that pitch is very important. Yeah. I know people who are master pitches, you know, master pitchers.

Yeah. And they get more shit on the air just because in a room, I mean, and sometimes the shit they get on the air is like not the best, but like in a room, they can make you see it. Yes. In a short amount of time,

boom, boom, boom, boom, and everybody is riveted. I'm like, yo man, how did you do that? And then on the backside of it, two things. One, just making something and having made it, just nuts. I mean, I know that sounds stupid, but in a place where everybody has an idea, yeah, having the discipline, the resourcefulness to actually have made it

and then have something to show someone, it just puts you so far ahead of everybody else. You have made, I might say something about the pitch that. I just saw this on Twitter. I was going to make this video. Shaka King who made Judas and Black Messiah. Somebody said the way he pitched that is he told the executives, it's the departed set within the Black Panther Party. And I was like, wow, I love Judas and the Black Messiah.

I never made that connection at all. It's not a crime thriller to me. It is the story of Fred Hampton's murder, right? To me. But a white executive, one of my old agents told me to get a pitch sold, unfortunately. He like pulled me to the side. He was like, listen, man, you're pitching the white people. You need to connect your pitch to something they know.

Don't pitch what you want to see. Pitch what they want to see. He said, I got to tell you, Kav, I know you probably don't like this. We pitch you as the black Jim Gaff again. Because they don't know who you are, but they do know Jim Gap. And I'm like, God dang it. Wholesome, dad. Yeah.

That's how we pitch you. And they're like, we know Jim Gaff again. Okay, right? Because they're not, they are literally not familiar, right? So that's one thing. But to your point, one of my old executives, man, he said he was the head of NBC drama for like 20 years. And he said he never got in trouble for saying no. You pitch something?

He passed on like 24, all kind of great hit shows. He said, I never got reprimanded for saying no to a great show. I got in trouble for saying yes to a failed show. So to protect my job, it's actually better for me to say no because I can go to my boss and say, this is why I don't think this works, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But when I say something works and it doesn't work, that's what gets you can. So if you have made it, that's already, there's way less. You got less development fees, pilot season, casting, all that stuff.

And if you can now license it, it's cheaper for them. So now it's like, well, why shouldn't we? Once you can get to why shouldn't we? Boy, you're in a totally different leverage position. Like, we might as well throw this up. He's already got eight episodes. He's got this audience. So that's my, so far that's been my.

leverage. And I thought it was my detriment. Ooh, hallelujah, that's a word. Because before in Hollywood, like, being on socials was a, like, you're not for real. You got to have true Hollywood and all that type of stuff. And then lo and behold, now it's like, well, where are your followers? Where's your audience? How are you going to get these people to come and watch? That used to be the network's responsibility to market the show.

Like, you got the money. You need to put the commercials and the billboards and set up the daytime television. Now they expect the creator to create it, sometimes make it, and market it. So thank the Lord that what I did to build my own stuff ended up being my superpower when it used to be seen as a negative. Yeah, you were ahead of the game for sure when it comes to that. Speaking of superpowers, I feel like one of your superpowers is that you just have this gift where everybody feels like they know you. Everybody, no, like even when I first started following you, I just felt like, I was like, don't I know him from somewhere? Something feels so familiar about you.

and I don't know, I guess maybe it's relatable, it's the way you talk to people, and if they don't know you, they want to know you. And something that you said when you were just talking about what it is that you do, and pitching, you talked about fear. And it's like, again, people see what you do, they see the success, and they might think, oh, like, he's past that.

He doesn't have that. For somebody who's watching, because I put up that we were interviewing you on the podcast, I was like, finally, right? And a lot of what people had to say, they wanted to know, like, how did you get past it? How did you build your vision? How did you see it and get past that fear in order to create the life that you have and that, you know, you're going to continue.

Yeah, I think for me, it's like, man, you don't really get rid of the fear. Yeah. Like, you just do it. Like, you just push past it. And I don't mean to be, like, super cliche, but it's like, I take massive ales all the time. And I'm actually very vocal about them because I want people to know like, it ain't all sweet out here.

I'm taking a massive L in the podcasting space. As we speak, podcasting revenue was crushing, right? I thought after the pandemic, I was like, I was going to go down, blah, blah, blah. It went up.

I was like, oh, this is great. After that, it did what I thought would happen in the pandemic. So I told them, like, there was a deal that was on the table that I was like, okay, we've been getting to, you know, we're going to have this stuff. We don't have a high learning.

We have producers and social cutters. and all that type of stuff. And we were right there. And I was like, all right, cool, we're going to be able to do this, relieve some pressure off of me. When I tell you that deal fell apart, this was like a month ago.

I was like, oh, but guess what? I'm like, okay, I still got these employees to pay for. I can't let them go. So what can I do? Right? I'm going to lean more into Patreon, right? I'm going to create some show

that's just for my Patreon. And I learn from my app. When you release shows 10 episodes at a time, what people do is they will pay at the beginning to see if they like it, then cut it off. Wait until all 10 episodes are there. And then they'll turn it back on on the 10th episode, burn through it in a weekend, and cut it back off. So I'm like, okay, I know that's going to happen. So now I'm going to release this new show on my Patreon once a month. So if you want to come in and click on and click off, you're going to pay the $5 every single month.

Or you go miss out, right? but that comes from no that comes from I'm not getting the podcast deal that I want and my greatest superpower is pivoting. I still know I got to get

these employees pay for. You're resilient. I'm resilient. I'm just like, okay, that door is closed, how am I going to get over here? How am I going to get over here?

Like I love one of the Wayne's quotes. They said they actually were the most creative when they had no money because they had to figure out how to do it. When you have a lot of money, you can try anything. Sometimes it doesn't push you

creatively. But when you don't have the resources, you really got to figure it out. And I think even just being poor and black and, you know, black people, some of our greatest things have come from black. You know, the way a pig can be eaten and edible is because we didn't have access to everything. The bad parts become the good parts. We wouldn't have oxtail without oppression. You know what I'm saying? So I think, or chitlins. Or chitlins. You know what I'm saying? We learned our lesson with that one. So I think to answer your question, I think you take them lumps and you just don't let to stop you. I use a sports analogy because I love them. Steph Curry, greatest shooter of all time. He does

miss baskets still every single game. He does not win every single game. But you don't need to make every single basket to be the greatest. You don't need to make every single basket to win every game. You don't need to make every single basket to win the championship. But I think people be so afraid to even shoot, then they'd be like, well, then you're going to do nothing. Well, then you're going to lose for sure and you can't be nothing. So for me, I just won't stop. Because like, in the back of my mind, if I give up, I'm going back to Boeing. going back to the bank and I'm like

well that I can't do. Right. I know that I'll do whatever I can to at least stay here or even I can't stay in LA I'll be like well I'm moving South Carolina I'm moving to Mississippi lower my cost of living I'll do a lot of stuff to make it happen like it's going to be hard to shut me up.

Not Mississippi. I'll go to Black people go be I'll go to Jackson. Jackson is a great and I'm going to mean Mississippi negatively. I love Jackson. Jackson, Mississippi. I had, we went to a show there, I hadn't been to Jackson a long time. We went to a show there.

When I tell you the people in Jackson was like the most lit audience, we had all tour. They was nice in the hotels. I'll go live in Jackson. I'll go to Jackson State games. You know, maybe you don't mind. Yeah, like we used to travel from, you know, sometimes it would be in Baton Rouge and sometimes it would be at Jackson state. We'd go up there at Jackson. The weekend in Jackson that we would have would be fire.

Sure. They weren't checking IDs in Jackson. He was doing all the kind of with fire. I love that city. Jackson, Mississippi, all right with me. Yeah, I love that city. Let me ask you this. I always, so much of the stuff that you do is based in your connection to the church.

Yeah. So much of your identity is based in the church. What evidence do you have that God has a sense of humor, that God likes to laugh? Platapus? Like my favorite animal. Come on, man. My favorite animal. You mean to tell me you were being dead serious when you made the platypus?

Like, giraffes? You're playing, man. You was like, what if I made one with just like a really long neck? Like, that's late in the game for you. You being funny when you're making giraffe. It's an unnecessary animal. You feel me? So it's like, and even like finding humor and tragedy.

Like, I'm doing this grief sucks thing. And it's like humor, especially for black people, humor sometimes is all we have. Like, sometimes the things be so racist. you got to laugh. Google AI, see more on niggers. That's funny,

he did it. He did the last podcast. He laughed. I'm like, it's something. It's funny, man. It's funny. It's funny again.

Like, because we can't just be mad all the time. We can't be mad all the time. So I think that between platypices, Platypies, and see more on niggers, Google AI. Like, the thing is so blatant.

You'd be like, God, dog, y'all. It's like, y'all not even trying no more. They're not. They're not trying to hide it. Somebody hit me on Twitter and they go, and they go, they said, Van, you know, we've heard so many stories about your dad. We've heard so much about your dad.

I always like when you talk about your dad, it would be awesome if you could, you know, put your dad on the podcast so we could see them on a podcast. And I was like, and I responded, I went, it would be tough to get them on. It would be tough. Did you explain further? No, no, no, I'll let the people who got the joke, get the joke. I was like, I was like, that's going to be a tough deal. And then, because that to me is, to me, the fact that that person asked that question, not knowing,

I could have been like, oh, man, like my dad died 21 and all that. But the fact that that person, that's funny to me. That's hilarious. Because they didn't know what they was doing. That's very funny to me. And like, that's what I'm talking about. Sometimes it feels like though where we are right now we are uncomfortable with uncomfortable laughter.

It used to be that we were way too comfortable laughing at things that maybe we shouldn't have been laughing at. Like we did the best black shows draft on the Midnight Boys and I talked a lot about in living color. I told people to go back and watch a living color. Then I said, now, when you watch it. Small comment out. Okay, like when you watch it, I want you guys to understand it's 1991.

Okay, at that time, we all knew that there were things you weren't supposed to laugh at. Yeah. Now I feel like we're having a conversation about whether or not we should find certain things funny. For sure. How does that like land with you as a comedian? I think comedy, good comedians, right? Because here's the true. I've never said this quite like this, but I want to say this.

Good comedians want to find a life. line. Sometimes I feel like lazy comedians just want to be offensive and crude. And that has its place. Shock Jocs, you just say the thing. You know, we bring them back these words. We stop saying. That to me is not good comedy. Shock comedy can get laughs. The way a fart joke

is funny. But after a while you're like, all right, man, fart jokes. Like, farting is funny to me. But it's like, okay, you know, there's a limit to it. So I think to answer your question is, comedy is always should be, or the funny when it's relevant to the time period.

Right? So in Living Color, plus the wanes sense of humor, plus no-holds barred, homie the clown, they was making fun of disabled people. Nobody was there because they were wild. That was also, if you think about wrestling at the same time, that was America. That comedy could be that wrestling was that.

Wrestling's kind of always reflective of society. I learned that's in the documentary. They went crazy with women in the late 2000s. It was like super sexy, America sexy. Girls Gone Wild was also on TV. it was like comedies like that. What the internet has done is as a comedian prior to the internet,

and I mean, I've always kind of been on the internet, but not in the way where somebody would post your thing and post it on Twitter could go viral. You would realize, yo, this joke ain't really hit no more. I think it's kind of offensive. You would just take it out of your set. That's all you had to do was remove it from your set. Because of the internet and access to stuff,

you can go back to a time where it's like, well, yeah, man, I wouldn't really, I wouldn't say that joke no more. Right. But you said it then was like, Bernie Mac's a great example. When I saw Kings of Comedy, Bernie Mac's set was not problematic to me at all. I just thought it was purely hilarious. When I go back and watch it now, I'm just like, ooh, that's crazy.

I don't think Bernie, I can't speak for him, but I don't imagine he would perform that set. Actually, let me say it this way. If he performed that set the exact same way today, it would be received very differently. Any good comedian will be like, oh, yo, this ain't really getting to laugh the same way. I should adjust this, take this, even if it's true. Like, I believe that story was true about his nieces and nephews and stuff, but in... Trueish. Trueish.

Yeah, yeah. He talks about the fact that that existed, but he took some license. For sure, for sure. Yeah, I meant, like, those were really his nephews. Right, right, right, right. He took creative liberties to make it more funny. Yeah. But that would not be received the same way.

So, as a good comedian, he probably would either take it out or adjust it to. how time is, you know? And for me, there's some jokes that I made early in my career or early in my internet career that I'm like, oh, this ain't funny. I went through imprived videos, deleted tweets, like, because I know if you go, I can find those and bring it to today's lens, it's no longer funny, but I know that because I stop making that type of joke or I don't even do that type of thing. Or like even roasting, right?

All deaf, roasting was a huge part of our brand. Still is today. There are jokes that are allowed on a roast because everybody understands on a roast. I can say stuff that I couldn't say in a regular setting. But what was happening at all deaf, roasting culture became part of who we were as people outside of that. So then we just was roasting everybody. Then out of context and out of the context of roasting,

people are like, yo, that's just kind of actually offensive. And I'm like, oh, yeah, you see that. But all my followers at that time were all deaf fans. So I felt like they understood. I still had to go back and clean up some stuff like that. But to answer your question in a more succinct way, I think a good comedian should always be, knowing the pulse of society and their audience

and how people think, like punching down wasn't a term that I knew of when I first started comedy. Like, you just were trying to be funny. Now I know what punching down is, so I try to be as funny to as many people as possible without sacrificing myself. And sometimes that means I don't say this joke. That's not going to go over.

That's not going to go funny. If you say you protect black women and the sketches you write, don't reflect that. People are going to call you out on it. And sometimes you've got to be checked. You know what I'm saying? I think that's part of being in community with people.

And sometimes like, oh, y'all, Kevin, you was tripping on that. Oh, that's my bad Ovan, you was tripping on that. Or Rachel, you was tripping on that. And if we respect each other, then we'll listen to that. But we're just like, no, no, it's funny. And y'all just hard. I mean, y'all just sensitive. Should anybody be protecting in comedy?

Absolutely. I think people are always protected. I think people choose who they protect. And they choose who they go after. Like so black people are often, it's easy to come at us. right? Because we're unprotected overall. I think it also depends. Like sometimes people just want to see a crude comedian be crude.

That's your choice. As an artist, you have the choice to make whatever art you make, but you don't have the choice to be absolved of the consequences of that art. You know what I'm saying? So I know I protect black women. It's my goal to protect black women in comedy. I don't just throw them out there. I'm considered how it makes them feel or look on screen and things and even representation.

Like in my shows, I'm making sure that, you know, I'm literally looking at the cast and making sure there's deep brown skin women. There's fat black women. And I mean, I'm fat. My home girls, we be fat. Everybody be fat in my actual circle, not just like casting people. I'm talking about my actual friends from high school, from church. So I want my shows to be reflective of how my life is. You know, that's important to me.

That's not important to Hollywood. It's like love is blind. You rarely see fat, unattracted, or unattracted people on those shows. It's like, yeah, can you find love? We're not, we're trying to find the most beautiful people. And, you know, maybe there's a person or two that's not objectively beautiful. But for the most part, it's not really love is blind because as soon as that people see the show, they'd be like, hey, man, you sound a different. And I'm not attracted to you.

I'm out. You know what I'm saying? You should do a dating show. My wife actually did one, Love on Stage for our app. And actually one of the couples got married and had kids. Oh, wow. Robert and Brea. You're good.

Yeah, my wife put together. And so to that point, like, we actually, she had good, messy drama on tape. And she was just like, that's not who I am. that's not the type of show I want to make. If she had a producer at Bravo or E, they'd have been like, girl, what is you talking about? Yeah. I mean, it was goal.

Her actual goal, her actual goal is to help people find love. Not under the guise for finding love to make good TV, because I think most of those shows are just like, here's how we draw you. We really just want to make good TV. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I think the fact that there's a married couple right now who has children because of the show Melissa created

is proof that if you want to stick to what you want to do, you can. Or you can take the thing and make good TV. If it would have made good TV, it probably would have been much bigger of a show. But, you know, that ain't what you, that wasn't what we was trying to do. That's the power of, yeah, owning it and having, being in charge of the creative. Because a network would have been like, girl, you tripping. I'm so sorry, that's on TV. Absolutely.

She would have lost that control. I'm curious because I was just, even just hearing you explain Vans' question about who's off limits or however he posed it. How do you decide when to not post about stuff that's politically charged or when to? And do you get pressure from your audience to be like, why haven't you said anything on this? That's a great question. I do get pressure. What I have come around to is I very rarely talk about political discourse on short form

media, Facebook, Twitter, TikTok, because it's so much, the conversations are so much bigger than three-minute segments allow you for. If you want to hear me talk about political topics, it's almost always on my podcast. Here's the thing with Angel. Because 30 minutes, an hour, an hour and a half, it allows you to have time for the nuance, for the context that is necessary.

I think the most recent thing that I was talking about, just talked about the BFTAs, but there was something else that happened before that. Ice. I was talking about ice. And somebody was like, it's actually a breath of fresh air for you to speak up because I don't see you speaking up

about political discourse that often. And so many people my comments were like, oh, you've got to watch this podcast. And I've said it on the podcast, but I haven't made a video. It's like, if you want to hear me talk about political stuff, go to my podcast. I just seen so often you try to make something

that's a big thing condense it for a short form video and you don't have enough time to make all the points you need to make. So then it gets picked apart. People trim your one thought and reframe it on Twitter with totally different context and most people take a tweet as framed

they don't go and look for the longer video if you frame it and the video supports it then that happens. Me and Angel, this happened to us on documentaries three times. What we talked about on podcasts has been added to somebody's documentary and we had no idea.

One time it was a Lizzo thing and I was talking about how Twitter was talking about Lizzo and I was reading tweets and the way they edited my words it made it seem like I was first. going at this off. And I was like, y'all trimmed the pre thing and the posting. Yeah.

For black issues, I'm, I'm almost always speaking up publicly on podcast and on short form. For other issues that have more nuance, I almost do it on podcast. I don't speak about things if I don't have enough information to make a public statement. I think sometimes people want you to talk, but like, I'm not just going to talk just to talk because I don't want to say something incorrect. without having a lot of knowledge. Israel Palestine, for example, that was a new thing for me.

I didn't understand the history of it, but I made the example. I was talking to my kids about this because we always check in with them and see how they feel about the way of the world. And I was asking them in the very beginning of that conflict. I was like, what do y'all think about Israel and Palestine?

Like, what are y'all hearing in schools? And my son, my oldest son was like, I don't know much, but if one of them has the power to turn off the Wi-Fi for the other people, I feel like that person probably has the power and is in the wrong. That's what he, in his mind,

he was like, if they're controlling the food and the Wi-Fi, the other people don't seem, it doesn't seem to be balanced, right? So I just thought that was such an interesting thing from his lens, but I didn't talk about that. You know why he knows that? Because you control the food. He knows in the situation with you.

Like, he's a kid. He hasn't been told that like all of this other stuff. knows that you control the food and the Wi-Fi. So if he in the back and forth with you, it's probably not fair. But it's a really good point. So before I speak, I want to know. And also, I don't rush to be first on hot button topics. I think that's the biggest mistake you can make is rush to be first because you don't

even have the information often. And the Baptist is the most recent example. It was somebody yelled a racial slur at Michael B. Jordan. So sometimes as an internet content creator, first is best. But then it was like, oh, actually that person had Tourette's. So I was like, oh, because the first time I saw that it had Tourette's was not a thing. Yeah, the first time I saw it on Twitter, I thought somebody just broke in or somebody there just yelled it. And then it was that he had Tourette's.

And then it was like, well, they had told them about Tourette's. And then it was like the Baptist was pre-recorded and they could have edited it out. And then it was like they actually edited out a free Palestine thing. Then it was they actually edited out 10 things. So now it's like, well, then if you left that in, then it feels like that's on purpose. And then he's like, they put a mic in front of me. Why would you do that if I was ticking? So if I would have made that from the first moment I saw that, which I do often,

I would have had to make 10 revisions versus just waiting to hear. And then I actually, shout out to Instagram. This one time their eye got on them was great. They showed me so many black people with Tourette's. Thoughts on this. I was able to listen to people who had way more insight on a subject than I do. And I was like, okay, black women with Tourette's, black men with Tourette's, black women with Coparelia, I can't pronounce it correctly.

Let me listen to y'all because you understand this in a way that I don't, and let me help that inform my decision. And then I talked about it my podcast, but I spent two or three days researching it because I know my audience wants to hear about it. But Tourette's not a thing that I'm familiar with. I actually don't know how it works. I don't know if you are racist or your brain, like they were telling me, like whatever your brain thinks not to say the condition makes you want.

to say. So I'm like, okay, maybe he's not racist. Then it was like, should he apologize? And he, the whole movie is about apologizing. And then he said, F, the queen. But then he apologized to the queen. And also, I just think the internet now doesn't allow for nuance. Everything's black or white. The album's classic or classic instantly. And it's like, there's some of my favorite albums still have skips in them. Does it make it not a classic? If I skip four, seven, and nine, to me, it's still a classic. You don't understand? Three songs. How many songs are an album? If it's a 12-song album, for me, I can skip three songs. I will agree with that.

Yes. So on a 12-song album, you can skip three songs. That is what? It's like a quarter. A quarter of the album. Three, okay. That's a passing grade. Okay.

Passing grade is different than classic. Yeah. Interesting. I'm trying to think. But I would agree with you. I think for every. Give me a classic with three skips. Okay.

I'm a big gospel person. Tony's out-the-box album is a, A classic to me, I skip all kind of songs. Why can't he do that? Why can he do that? But I don't know, Tony. I don't know. What are we talking?

You know who I know? Ian's cousin. I know that's, I know, I know the, I know the staples of, I know the songs. I can't listen to gospel because I'm not trying to drive around crying, bro. It's not all like that. The music makes me cry, man. There's a beat. There's not a gospel.

Listen, oh, the juice And I'm listening to What God's why? Richard Small. Why hit the records? Why hit the records? It's just All-school.

Everybody's a lot of joy? Like, even Shackles kind of makes me want to cry a little bit. Okay, that's just you, Vance. Shackles. Man. It's about dancing. I'm about to cry right now.

It's about dancing because you're so happy about God. Being free? Yeah. It's like you've got to let that feelings out. Even that. Even that's, I'll look at Mary, Mary. And I'm like, look at how happy.

they are, I wish I could be that happy about something. Even that song, it's just difficult. The whole guy I think is difficult for you. But, okay, okay, so tonne, I actually have heard of tone that. Ian, my friend Ian is a gigantic, Ian Vaughn's a gigantic gospel guy, his whole family, gospel people. There's somebody in their family

who's actually a big gospel person of some sort. But anyway, so, but I don't know that. I don't, I don't know. Okay, you mean like a hip-hop album? Give me some hip-hop. See, man, I don't want to, I don't want the blacks to be upset. with me. I'm not a hip hop guy in the way that people often are. Oh, okay. Okay. Because I, and I want, can I look? Can I make this? Yeah, yeah. In my family, you could not listen to anything that

wasn't gospel. I didn't have money to buy albums like that till I was like 15. The first hip hop album I bought was the Rough Riders compilation album. Oh my gosh. And that's a good one. I was right there. That's a good one. My old money, I bought the Ruff Riders compilation album. My brother had an Outcast album. Southern Playlistic Cadillac music. Yeah. So I only had what my brother had or what was available on radio, TV that I could hear with my friends at school.

I couldn't get, I got caught with a TLC creep album. My dad took it and threw my whole walkman away because I was listening to Red Light Special. We could look similar. We could look similar. This is a safe space. You're like, you're more like me. Thank you.

Because I've told the story how I, it was a very proud moment for me. I took all my CD, my country CDs, my country music CDs. took them to the CD store and traded them in when I was 15 for like, I cash my, oh my gosh, what is, hot boys, hot boys. I could not think of the name. The hot boys, rough riders. My parents caught my sister with All About the Benjamins that threw everything out,

that hit them in a closet. Then we found them through everything out. I'm with you on that. So whatever you're going to name is going to be okay. B-T, 106 in Park, TRL. So I know pretty much everything that was on the radio. on TV music videos. But if you like Jay Z. Black album, Blueprint,

my brother in Christ. Oh, I did by the blueprint, though. I'm sorry. The blueprint, I could skip three on there. And I think that's a classic. What are the skips on the blueprint? Never change, even though I do like it. Because I do like it because it's David Ruffin.

I do like it because it's David Ruffin, but I will probably skip that. On a re-listen, I will probably skip that. It's still a classic, though. It's David Ruffin. I love David Ruffing. And I didn't say I didn't like it. I'm a rock representative.

I didn't say I didn't like it. I said I'll skip it. If I'm listening to it, I'm sticking it. It doesn't have to be a bad song for being skipped. I'm just skipping it. If I put it all right now, I'm like, that's not really what I feel like hearing right now. You know what? Okay, on Watch the Throne.

Listen, black people, I love you. I love Watch the Throne. Probably got three skips. Probably a classic album to me. I skip Otis. I don't like Otis. Otis is a fantastic record, but I can see. I'm not doing outrage with you guys anymore.

Yeah, there's a Beyonce song. The Beyonce, there's a, the one she sings a hook on, great song. I'll be skipping it. I don't know that Wash the Throne is a classic though. To me. Yeah, it might be.

I don't know that Wash the Thrones is a classic. Okay, here's a good, here's a fun fact, right? The amount of albums I have is so small. Right. My classics are coloring book, Good Kid, Mad City. Love Color and Bow. Wash, Throne.

Because I don't, I don't have. most black people who are hip hop fans they got 30, 40 years of gospel albums, classics, trash, all that type of stuff. But hip hop, I didn't consume that much to watch a throne. It's like, yo, this is a great album. I love, I listened to it for years.

Good Kid Mad City, there's no skips for me. But I just don't have it. So I don't be trying to be something I'm not. I can talk to you about the singles, the music video stuff, the radio hits, but you're talking about reasonable doubt, what's track for? My brother in Christ,

I don't know. Okay, so then. I'm so with you. So I've heard enough gospel to know the gospel standards. Yeah. To know the songs that like I used to have this friend named Tremaine and Yolanta Adams had. What was the record that beautiful sister has, the one that, her big one?

The battle is not yours. No, no. Oh, that's the one that gets me. No, what's the, the one that, she had one. Am I not thinking of like the right Yolanda Adams? Singing a little bit. Yolanda Adams is the gospel. Yelan Adam.

Yeah, but I'm thinking she had the song my home boy Tremaine used to play this song. The Open My Heart. Open my heart. Open my heart. So he used to play

so whenever Tremaine, Tremaine was trying to change his life. So whenever Tremaine would get into a situation where he would like, where it was about to happen, he would go to the car and play Open My Heart like right away.

Fair. So I never forget. My sister just like always triggers people. Yeah. She always likes to push people and trigger people. And she at one time said, no, no more Tremaine in my house. No more Tremaine in my house. Oh, no more him.

No more Tremaine, period. And so he calls me up and he goes, and this is me. This is me being who I am. He calls me up and he goes, where are you at? I'm like, I'm an Ebony house. And he was like, can I come through? And I was like, yeah. I was like, yeah, come through, bro.

They over here smoking. They're big into illegal, illicit drugs. I don't want to figure out. But like, yeah, they're smoking. He comes over. He got, he didn't stop and got chips. He didn't stop and got chips. He got drink is cool.

He thinks him and Ebony about that. And she goes, she looks, she goes, uh-uh. Out. Out. She's like, you can leave all that if you want. Out. And then I'm looking at him and me and Ryan laughing in the whole night. out. He look at me. He look at her. He closes the door. This is a movie scene. All you hear when he's driving away is open my heart.

He's literally driving away and it's loud because he got speakers in his seat. All you hear when me and when me and Ryan hit that, we dying on the floor. Dying on the floor laughing. But I want your top five. I want you. the top five gospel artists of all time. Gospel artists? Yeah. Far and away, number one for me, Kirk Franklin. Number one.

All time. All time. Kirk Franklin is the only gospel artist to me that has been relevant in multiple decades. Hmm. He has never really lost relevancy from early 90s. That's true. We even got a lot in common. Yeah.

Kirk Franklin probably number one to me. Number two, John Peeke. Oh, such a good one. John P. Key, new life, community. He just did a tiny desk. He just did a tiny desk. He just did a tiny desk. Great tiny desk for legacy artists as well.

Legacy artists, give me your legacy track. I said, whose idea was this genius? Give me five of your old legacy songs. Showing a new song. But please don't do seven of the song. Yeah. Fred Hammond. Legendary, legendary, legendary,

gospel artist for me, Kevin. Okay. Number four, Mary Mary. Okay. Mary Mary to me changed gospel music in a way that few artists can claim to have changed gospel music. They, along with Kirk, were probably the most visibly successful people to incorporate elements of hip hop and R&B into gospel music in a way that crossed over and their music was played in non-gospal areas like that. And the fifth one is the Clark sisters, who also did that same thing. years prior.

The Clark sisters also, man, they paved the way for so much stuff of gospel music. Their mom, Maddie Moss Clark, just choir harmonies. And their gospel tree, their family tree, Jay Moss, Kiera Clark Shear, J.D. Drew. Obviously, the Clark sisters. Twinkie Clark alone should be heralded

in the same way that Quincy Jones is. When it comes to music, period. not gospel music her arrangements her songwriting her musical ability her on the organ she should be compared to the Quincy Joneses of the world and not just

gospel music so those that would be my top five who are you like right now who's new I feel like I don't listen to new gospel now this one's going to get in trouble okay you don't either you don't like it I it's not that I don't like it these new niggas it's not even like old head I feel like the world has changed

in my life and in the way of discovery. Okay. When I grew up, it was only gospel in the house. There was gospel radio. That was the only thing that my family played in the cars. I played instruments for the choir, so we're always learning the new music, right? Gospel in churches now is being sung less.

And what we call CCM or contemporary Christian music is being sung more. Yeah. The black church choir doesn't sing in church like they did when I was a kid. It's mostly worship team, praise team. And it's a lot of CCM, you know, music is what's sung in churches. I don't connect with that the same way I connected to gospel. So probably the most recent artist that I have is not even new.

Jonathan McGrinoz, I love his music. Travis, I'm about to say Travis Kelsey because I just watched a video about him in the vacation thing. which is repost work, by the way. Respost work. Repost work. It went viral again. Bring it back. You brought it back.

It worked again. Sometimes I look at the people say, if you got a big video, bring it back. 1,000% when something happened with Patrick Mahones, I reposted Angel that fried chicken. Reposting that thing.

It went viral like it did the first time. Travis Green is who I was thinking of. But they're not new. I'm so sorry. Gossip people. Red Hands Band. They're from Ohio I believe Ohio.

Red Hand's band is probably the most new gospel artists and they're just like a almost a Neo Soul meets gospel meets snarky puppy. And that was probably the newest artist that I hadn't heard of when I tweeted once. Put me on to somebody, somebody put me on a Red Hands band. And that was probably it.

But I'm not as tapped in as I used to be in gospel. And I feel like gospel unfortunately unlike, I don't even know unlike, it hasn't turned over really since I'd say Thai tribut

was the last person that was like bringing some, he was also kind of neosol kind of like that Philly Atlantic City vibe. He brought that to gospel in an interesting way. Jonathan McReynolds, again, he was like cool guitar, gospel, but not CCM. But outside of that, That, I ain't, I'm sorry, y'all.

I ain't been, I'd be listening to old stuff. I become that old nigga who's like, 90s R&B is as good as it get to me. SWV, man. Ain't no Olivia Dean in this house, even though there's plenty of Olivia Dean in this house. There's so much Olivia Dean in this house. I love SWB. It's funny that you bring up R&B. So we, Atlanta has all of these new geniuses that are doing their thing.

I love what's coming out of Atlanta right now. We hung out with Deonté Kyle. Love him. The man. The man. Have fun. We made some culture in Rachel crib. Rachel didn't even know Deontay was coming over.

Really? It's popped up. He just, door opens. They come through. Big Cat ice cup? Big Cat was there? Big Cat. Deontay.

I mean, I know who they are from their podcast, but I was like, who told them to come to the house? This is Tramane. He did it with Tramette. Yonthe Cal is Tramine. Because Rachel put my mom to work. Rachel made my mother. And you're welcome.

I asked if she could make gumbo. My mother's on her vacation and Rachel made her comebo. I said if it's not too much. You gotcha. All right. They really look. He loved that.

Oh, I guess I can throw something together. She had a great time. It turned into a whole thing. She went to sleep. But Deontay Big Cat was in town, all just aside. Like, asked him to come over. Love that guy. Fantastic.

Amazing brain. Ridiculously good energy. But FD Signifier as well. Who I'm also tapped in with now, just did a video. and in this Tyler Perryville, which everyone should go watch, he talks about just as an aside, he talks about something that I hadn't thought.

When I thought about the fact that R&B as a music is sort of dwindling or redefining itself, you always think about the fact that hip-hop sort of supplanted R&B and more people that can sing now want to be rappers that can sing rather than singers that can sing. But FD said something else. Black church.

The black church. 1,000%. The erosion of the black church, the erosion of music programs in the black church means that the gospel is no longer, the church is in a conservatory. The black church was the greatest conservatory for not just music, public speakers,

comedians, rappers. I honed my skills in church. The first skit I ever did was me and my brother playing David and Goli. in church. We had, it was called PYPU,

Pentecostal young people's union. I never knew what you used to before. And we had basically had talent shows at church. Me and my brother wrote skits.

I'm gonna be, he's gonna be, I was Goliath, even though he was bigger than me. And we took it so serious and so funny that you were asking like how I create

some version of that. And MC Hammer was the most popular at this time. It's like 92, 93 maybe. And I was Goliath and I was like, can't touch this in church.

And all the kids was like, oh, like I was always marrying hip-hop in church, culture in church as a kid. And that's still the same thing I do today. But to answer your question, Fred Hammond was talking about how he used to steal from boys to men and Jodice. And they used to steal from him. And R&B artists used to steal from the Clark sisters. And the black church, so many musicians were just sight reading. You're going to get up here on that organ and you're going to play. no no no no no music no formal lessons you just sit in that church you watching him play the organ

you good most good organist start off as good drummers then you graduate to the organ you sing you get a chance to direct we and i was just thinking about this because my kids don't go to church nearly like i went to barely at all honestly because i be on the road so much unless to be on the road we missed it but also black church doesn't happen as much as it used to happen across the board when i grew up in El Paso, no funny stuff. We're in church five of seven days a week. The only day we didn't go to church consistently was Monday and Thursday. We had Bible study on, you know, evangelistic service on Tuesday, Bible study on Thursday,

choir rehearsal on Friday, junior choir rehearsal on Saturday, Sunday morning, Sunday school, Sunday service, sometimes 3.30 service and night service. For the first 30 years of my life, I only missed Sunday morning church three times in 30 years. In 30 years. One was, one was, I used to say the joke. One was the Sunday I was born, even though it's not true. One was Y2K that week we had just moved to Washington. My dad was like, I don't know, y'all.

We just, we in a new city like, we ain't going. That was watch night service. I don't think of even on Sunday, but that was a big service that we missed. But now in LA at least, most churches, church we go to just has Sunday morning service and maybe Bible study two times. And for a long time, they didn't even have Bible. study. So church just doesn't exist and it's for sure not the linchpin of black culture the way it used to be civil rights movement. You see Martin Luther King in there. You see all these historical figures in there. Politicians used to have to come to the church to speak. Remember even

Obama, the Jeremiah right thing. That was what his first campaign, OA? You, you don't have to go to a black church to reach black people. If you're a politician today when the next presidential cycle runs out, you have a better chance of getting black people going on a black podcast than you go to a black, then you are to like go to say E. Dewey Smith's church or Jamal Bryant's church or Mike Todd's church. Like it's just not the same cultural linchpin it used to be. And that shows its place in music in public speaking, in comedy and arts. Black people just aren't honing their skills in the church the way they used to because the church was a low key.

If you could get them going in church, you can get them going on stage. That's why Jodice's their dad, Devonte and Dalvin, I went to their dad's church in Charlotte. These are church boys. If you can get people going and make them feel the spirit, that same skill translates to get an audience going. You got to get a church is cold at the beginning, right? You just come and sit down, just like a comedy club. If Jodice as kids, KC was a KC. Haley and the

Hayley singers, he was like a part of a quartet group at first. You got to warm that audience up with your charisma, your skill and singing ability. Same thing you got to do in a club, theater arena. The first note, you got to get them going. So we ain't doing that

as much and I think we're not as wowed by the performances as much because people haven't honed that skill. And also with the whole like straight to festivals, you ain't built them. You ain't built the skill. Yeah, usually it was honing the church and then you go out on the road and you hone it again in small clubs.

Now you have a hit song, you go straight to Coachella or whatever big festival. You ain't got to work your way up necessarily if you have the biggest song. Whereas like, you watch a new edition movie. He was like, they was in that garage for two years. Practicing. Y'all don't, y'all even have a show. Y'all in here learning in a hot garage two years straight. By the time y'all have a show, you're already ready.

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at weathertech.com today. So they ain't spending the money developing artists as much as they used to either. Do you miss that kind of church? Oh my God. Because I didn't go to church five days a week, but it resonates with me some of the stuff that you're saying. And as much as I used to complain about it,

I'm just wondering, do you miss? Because I think what's interesting too about, you know, we're talking about the music side of it, but there was a togetherness that we all kind of understood having to grow up in church like that. Certain jokes that are made, certain traditions, the way we do it, it's like, oh, that all came from it. Do you, it was a monoculture?

Do you miss that? 1,000%. I think it was such a big part of my life. I also complain. It's not like, as a kid, you don't want to do that. Sure. You just don't really have a choice. As a black, poor kid, or even a black kid growing up at the time we did, you don't really

have a choice about much. What do you mean what you want for dinner? That's not a question. you are asked. Rice errone, nigga. Rice errone. Yes, third day in a row.

Spaghetti tomorrow. Spaghetti through Saturday. This is dinner. This is church. Get up, get dressed. I remember I used to spend the night at my friend's house.

You can spend the night. We'll pick you up from church. They come spend the night here. They're going to our church. Make sure they don't honor some clothes. I do miss it. And I also miss the like, same way I miss Blockbuster.

Like, not only do I miss Blockbuster. I miss the way, felt when Blockbuster was a big part of life. Like, I now have access to every movie it feels like, but there was something special about going to Blockbuster and hoping that Terminator 2 was still there when you got a chance to get there or waiting because we couldn't watch movies when they came out.

When we see them trailers, we'd be like, ooh, this is cool. In nine months, when that comes to Blockbuster, I can't wait. Or the Dollar movie, like, we didn't get to go see movies in theaters. And because social media, it didn't really get spoiled like that. So I was used to waiting Whereas now, you know, this movie's coming out

And by the middle part of that movie on Thursday, it's going to be available on Paramount Plus streaming right now. So I think there was a certain, We don't have access to everything. So this, what we have feels like everything. And I feel like my friends was in church. I met Melissa in high school. I ended up going to her church just so I could see her more.

That's how you used to have to date. Like, I'm going to go to your church. That's where church kids used to be like, you're going to be at a teen night? Yeah, you're going to locket and had all kinds of people getting figured at locket. Yeah, I was like the locket is a different thing. Big finger. They begged me to come to one.

I went to that bitch. And then after that I was like, I'm not missing one of these. They're like, Van, you really should come to the law. I'm like, why would I go spend the night at Christian Life Academy? Like what, like, I'm not going to go spend the night and my homeboy is like, van, you're going to want to come to the Lockheen. All kinds of said happened. It came to the lock in. We did the whole joint.

And the people, the youth passes, like, all right, well, peace guys. And I was like, they fed us to peace and they was gone. It was like, we played dodgeball. They was out. I was like, oh, it's us? And, yeah.

There's all type of sin happening at the lock-in. So, yeah, I definitely miss it. And when I go to church, you know, I go to California Worship Center, which is Mary Mary's Erica Campbell and Warren Campbell's church. Warren be boxing, Warren be coming to fields. Does he? Warren, good box.

Oh, snap. Yeah, Warren become a shout for a more campbell, man. He is the best pastor for a person like me because he gets it. He used to be a producer for death row. And his dad was like, hey, man, you're a musician. This is your job. You love God and serve Christ and come to church, but you make music for a living. If you've got to sell a beat to Shug Night, my brother, you sell a beat to Shig Night.

If you're on the road with Brandi and for a creative idea. Kanye, like it just continues to go like legitimately, one of the greatest unsung musical. 1,000% and I say this all the time and I often get flack for it. Your gift doesn't have to only be for the church. It can be for the church, but it doesn't have to only be for the church.

I like comedy. I never wanted to just be in churches doing comedy only, right? Because there's some stuff that's taboo. Like I can't make that joke. I can't say a nigga in church. I respect a pulpit, but now I still go back and do jokes there and still go to church, but I don't desecrate it in that way.

Right, at least to me. Some people still feel that way. But when I go to their church, they still have that feeling. Erica, Tina often sings, their younger sister, Sister Chante. They have that old black version of church that makes me feel at home. But at the same time, their music is also relevant and modern. You know what I'm saying? So I do miss it, but, you know, I miss a lot of things that I had when I was a kid.

You know what I'm saying? I miss riding bikes with my friends and stuff, but I think it's not right. bike's no more it's interesting I think that we a lot of times when we talk about like blockbuster these things and going to the movies and going here and doing this we're talking about how we connect to ritual how people connect to ritual yeah and what it means to do something as a human being like it's like a reward structure it's a way that it used to the dopamine used to come in a different way and now I feel like we're scraping the upper limit limit of the internet there's a couple of days ago

I try to go watch the Mac, can't find the Mac. Yeah. Not going to work. All of the stuff that I'm getting from the Internet, I got to be able to watch the Mac whenever I want to watch it. Because whatever else, with everything else is happening on the Internet, I can't go to the Internet and not be able to find the Mac because there's no more blockbuster.

The movie theaters is fucked up. All of this stuff. I need the Mac now. Okay. So I think we're starting to wonder if everything that we gave up is actually, if the internet is actually worth it, because the internet is starting to reach a level to where all of this stuff is scraping against the ceiling. And now AI has to create a new sort of God for the internet and all of that. I just thought that was interesting. I want to ask you

about something else, specifically about the church. Okay. You just made this really cogent and interesting analysis about everything that we got from the church. And sometimes when I'm in criticism of the church, which I am quite often, I don't think about those things. I don't think about the cultural things that we harvested from the church. A lot of people think about the things that the church harvests from us.

Money, influence, power, all of that stuff. And I think now the Drusky Skit, other things, because we're not in the church like we used to be, and because almost everything is up for analysis and overanalysis, we're asking questions about whether or not the church church is worth it, whether or not we are actually getting a return on our investment for what we've put into the black church and whether or not the structures of the church are serving the

black community communities writ large the way that they should. One, what do you think about the conversation? And two, what case do you make for the importance of the black church today? Great question. I'm going to make a parallel between the black church and black parents raising kids in poverty and specifically so it can be relevant to my life. I grew up with not a lot discipline, getting whoops, whoops, getting whooped, can't ask questions, whereas I don't raise my kids that way, right, that same way. I both can appreciate and understand what my parents did, tried to do with their knowledge,

and also recognize they got it wrong. in XYZ way, right? But I also understand that they didn't necessarily mean harm and they didn't know no better. David Sob put me on to this idea that poor parents, not just black parents, poor parents often ruled with fear because they didn't have time to discipline any other way. I can't explain to you why you can't do X, Y, and Z.

Don't touch it because I got to go to work. I can't be with you. You're going to have to walk home from school, get that key in that house, don't answer the door, don't do this, don't do that, don't do that. Shut up. Don't question me because I said so, because I got to go to work. Not because I don't love you, not because I don't, I don't have, literally don't have the time to discipline you any different way. And I think the church has done a lot of harm in some ways, irreputable harm, irrefutable harm, whichever word was correct there.

and I think it's the same way our parents did a lot of harm. It doesn't mean they were all harmed though. And it doesn't mean they, and at the same time, just because you didn't mean to do something, it doesn't, you know, remove you from the harm you caused, right? I get in trouble all the time for talking about the black church was homophobic, right? Black Christians hate when I say that.

But it is true. I was taught to be homophobic sitting in church five times a week. That was what was taught to me. I'm so sorry, it was taught to me. I had to unlearn that because it's important to me that I am welcoming and inclusive of all black people. That includes queer black people. It includes trans black people. If you black people, you black with us, it is my goal that you can come sit with us.

I was not taught that. And it was reinforced from my family. I was taught, nobody's born gay. Even if you are, you're born in the sin, you can get born again. Okay? If you are gay, you were molested. That's not the only way people can be gay. I had to learn that later in life.

I was not taught that. And I realized as an adult, and it wasn't even the church that changed me, It wasn't my parents. It was the birth of my son. It was the first time I had a thought that was like, when I held my son, who is 19, it was the first time I had a contrary thought to something that had been taught to me. I was holding my son and I was like, yeah, I don't really care if this boy is gay or straight.

This is my son. I'm not going to, because at that time I started hearing people like, my parents didn't, they kicked me out for being gay. Start to hear these things, right? On TV, movie, internet. I'm like, dang, that's crazy. And when I was holding him, I was like, I'm so sorry. That won't be my thing.

But I ain't say nothing at that time because I was like, I want to go against my pastor. I don't want to upset my family members and stuff. It's like so funny to me. In my actual family, there are gay people. If my family just be like, we don't really talk about that, Auntie. What you mean? Yeah. She's been gay since the 70s.

Yeah. What do you mean? This is our family member. Like in my family. trans family members. We just like, I don't see this. The grotesque truce. Yes.

We just looking at it. We just like, there's no book there. I just put it down. What you mean? So for me, I was just like, I'm sorry. I'm not going. And it's okay if you disagree with me. You can't whip me.

And the other thing, I remember I was getting taken to task by the gay community in the pandemic. and I was listening because I was getting, I mean, I was getting obliterated on Twitter. Because you said something? I was doing this thing called, theological Thursdays. During the pandemic,

we was all created. And I was very curious person. I was talking, I used to do a show called ASCA, and I had done ASCA black guy, ask a trans person, all kind of stuff. And because I'm curious

and I love to have a conversation, I love to understand. And I had Jackie Hilperry on my podcast. trying to understand she was like I was a former lesbian gave my life to God which was the way you could be gay in the church you could have been gay

and God could have taken the gay away that's we get you on that you can't be gay right been yes be no you cannot be that's how we was taught of like but some people be gay and I'm gonna say one thing too

and I know I'm all over the place but it's gonna make sense no we went to a church and I hate it because it's so stereotypical, but it is true. Our choir director was gay. This nigga was amazing songwriter, amazing arranger, amazing choir director. He wasn't like flamboyantly gay in the sense of like how movies make people, but he was very obviously gay. Our church was like, don't talk about that.

but do be a part of the choir didn't do the music yeah for me it was incongruent to me that we can use your gifts yeah but deny your humanity like it's you know he gave but he writing them songs and them songs are moving

people right I mean we're in here crying to his songs God is using him yeah you can't make me believe I didn't feel what I feel Tony has a song called Make Me Over we I'm talking about God himself spoke through Tone to me about my sins when I listened to when I found out that Tone was gay he did an interview about it this song is very clearly about could be interpreted you know my other side I can no longer hide hold on you was telling us right then so I don't

discount everything the church is but I also cannot not acknowledge the harm that was done and I think you hold space for both of those. I did this. That's what you know that you've evolved. I said hold space and I did this. Yeah, that those are two. And I think in most things, things are not inherently good or evil.

The black church was great at so many things, but it got things wrong. Same way black parents were good at so many things, culture, respect, but they also got a lot of things wrong. What we taught was discipline was quite often abuse. Some people still believe that is the only, only way to discipline children. I don't feel that way. Same thing happened with my son about being

gay. I remember I used to with my kids when they were young. I remember one time my youngest son hit my oldest son. So I popped my youngest son and said, don't hit your brother. And in that moment, my brain was like, now make that make sense. How you hit him to tell him not to hit him? That didn't, it just, and that's literally the last time I hit my kids. That was 24. It just didn't make sense to me. And I also was, thank God, I had the time to discipline them. But that requires me to listen to my kids,

admit that I was wrong. My parents didn't admit they were wrong to us. What are you talking about? I was just talking about. What are you talking about? I heard a friend of mine, like, apologizing their kids. And I was like, yo, in 41 years of knowing this man,

he never said he was sorry. He would do things to let you know that he You want to get something to eat? Yeah. You want to eat. I got a son. I got a son. He was a little fat.

Like, hey son, I got some Big K, big fish. Right. Going they get some need. But actually, Van, I am sorry for what I did. Daddy's sorry. Daddy was wrong. This, this above. No.

No. I told my son, my child, you hurt my feelings. How did he respond to that? He apologized. Wow. He didn't see that I, he didn't see how his actions did. Because I realized.

I'm like, I'm taking this disrespect. But as a married person, when I went through, I always say that we can go longer. I'm having a great time. If y'all ain't a rush, I'm not in a rush. I often say that I learned, I went to there to become a better husband. I became a better person.

Same. I realize what I'm taking as disrespect for my kids is you actually hurt my feelings. But it's wild for me to say my kid hurt my feelings because my parents would never acknowledge. if you don't if you uh don't answer me when i call you it it's all everything's disrespect huh sucking your teeth this being wrong sometimes when i when i when i remember what he did but i realized as i processes i was like he didn't actually make me feel disrespected he actually hurt my feelings when he did that but i'm trying to teach him to be an emotionally intelligent person to everybody around him so if i can't model to him hey you heard my feelings when you did that how can i

expect him to do that. Yeah. It hasn't been modeled for him. So I had to like swallow some ego and some pride because you are my child. What's you talking about? You can't hear my feelings. I'm your father. I'm your father. Cause I'm me on hood. Right? That's where I'm from the streets. Yeah. So yeah. So I told him that and he was like, oh my God, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that. Like explaining things to my kids was like a thing my parents. So this is a new thing for me. I didn't have this model for me. But I want my kids. to be able to do this. And also back to the black church and gay things,

my kids are growing up in an inclusive world and they're not growing up in as much black church as I grew up with. One of the things that my son, when he first wanted to vote, he wanted to protect gay rights because his home girl from life is gay. So he's like, I could vote. I need to protect her.

This is my friend from third grade. He doesn't have the same thing that I have. right so it's an interesting thing when you're raising kids differently than you were raised because you're trying to be better and I really I understand and I forgive my parents because they did the best they could with what they had and what they knew and I think in some ways the black church did as well because at the end of the day the people were in the black church was black parents yeah yeah it's the same people that was raising me they just went up to preach or to sing and sat back down.

The stuff was enforced more by your family outside. The pastor said it, but the people enforced it. So you feel like you're going against, it felt like going against a black church was going against my family. Absolutely. You know what I mean? It wasn't just the church.

It's like, it's my grandma specifically. It's a great comparison. And I really understand it because I feel like sometimes I say we grew up in a similar way. If Jesus had a podcast in 12, What topic do you think we get him canceled? I'm going to answer this in a different way. I think we don't really think about who Jesus was when he lived on Earth.

We think more about Paul. Jesus, if he was on a podcast, he spent all his time with the degenerates, the sinners, the publicans, the tax collectors, basically the outcast of society. That's who he spent his time with. So if he spent his time with those people in the Bible, to me, you fast forward, he would spend his time with marginalized people today. Who are marginalized people today, black people, gay people, trans people. That's who I think, based on the data of who he spent his time with. So I think he would get in trouble for spending time with people that we shouldn't be spending time with because they are not right.

not like us. I feel like when I was growing up, I was, most of my Christianity wasn't Christianity at all. It was really, I want to be more saved than you. I'm not really out here trying to leave people to God. I just need to feel better about my walk than their walk. I'm not actually spending time with people to actually get them to come to church. I think one of the best examples of the black church done right is my brother's story. He was out here. having kids, crazy, having sex, doing all kind of lasciviousness and debauchery. He started coming to church, and at first he was just at church. Church ended at one. He'd get there at 1258.

And then 1258 became 1245. He's loved this whole time. That's the point of story. 1245 became 1230. 1230 became 1230, became 1130, became 11, became after many years. Even though everybody was aware of how he was living, he was fornicating, he was shocking up. We just loved him through all that stuff. He got married.

and he was the superintendent of the Sunday school. And the church loved him from 1248, 58 to 11 till before 11, setting up for Sunday school. So I think that's a good example of Jesus's love. I'm going to love you, even though I disagree with how you're living your life. You're still welcome. You can come to my house. You are welcome to partake. We're going to the picnics.

Your whole self is love. Not you can get this when you get your act together. When you stop doing sin, you stop doing whatever. is whatever. You know, one of the great analogies I love is like a church is a hospital for the sick. That means they are coming in sick. I think sometimes the church we often want people to come in well and leave weller. That's that's not the point of a hospital. Hospital is supposed to help you get well. The church is supposed to help you get your life together to, you know, be better with God, so to speak. So I don't know that

Jesus would ever even have a podcast But if he did He probably would be getting canceled For spending time with people who are not The right kind of Christians That's what I think You know my You know

I've always had this observation of Jesus And it's always been argued They never liked when I was wrong You know what I think Jesus hung out with those people They were the only people that would have him Mm Jesus believed that he He was the son of God and that he was sent here to purify the world of its sin.

That he was here to fix things. You can't have that conversation with power. You can't have that conversation with people who have the world made the way they wanted to be made. Those people aren't going to listen to you. When you tell them that there is something new, when you tell them that there is something that they're not doing, those are not going to be the people that are going to listen to you and say, hey, let's remake the world anew, let's change everything. Jesus hung with the people who would listen to his message. And the people who are going to listen to the message of, we need to do this differently,

are the community of people who need to hear what is new, who need to hear the thing that is going to save them. And so that, I remember saying that back, yeah, everybody listened to Jesus. Jesus, dude, turn water and the wine. I'm like, no, Jesus was talking to the people and surrounding himself with the people that would have him because they're going, this can't possibly be life. This is not me. This is not like what I am. And even the way we like orient around power now, we try to do this top down thing. we try to make

and so we look at people who we don't think are worthy or people who we don't think are special or good enough for this stuff we make all these judgments about them and then the people who have attained all of this stuff and who are the elites we think that they are the good ones the people that are undergirding the same power structures

that are keeping you where you are. And so when I hear people go Jesus was with the this and then this and the this, I look at them and I go, that's you, nigga. Like, I know that you think that, like, no, he was with you. That is you. Yeah. And so when you talk about system breaking or planning and plotting

and all of that to remove, change, rearrange, and do all of that stuff, if you think that you're going to do that with the people who own, maintain, reinforce good luck right you're gonna do that with the people that they tell you not to go bill with 1,000% I think Jesus is a lot of his big conflict was not with marginalized people it was with super religious people Pharisees Sadducees it was overtly religious people I always use this example and it's not mine this pastor really killed it with this one time he was talking about

the woman the adulterous woman that they got caught her in the act and he said Jesus came to do what was right not what was, I mean, came to do what was good, not what was right. So the law, if you had adultery was to stone you. So Jesus, they like, geez, what you want to do? Because they wanted him to, you know, they want to catch him in a catch 22. You say you're supposed to be about the law. We caught her in the act. If you, if you're the son of God, this is what we say. She got to die. She got to die. Yeah. So the right thing to do would be to stone her. The good thing to do is to say that he was without sin cast a first stone. Because now you need to change. your heart first because you know you with the okay you so you've done nothing wrong you be the first

one to throw the stone right so I think that is you know he was very masterful with his words that's why there was in red in the Bible not black because I don't know what I said but I think that's what I want to be like right I feel like to your point about people in power you start agreeing with that power a little too much seems like you're more interested in power than people for sure For sure. Brough, see, listen to care. Don't listen. That's what I'm trying to say.

That's really the only thing I'm trying to say. It seems to me that you're not actually concerned with the material experiences of people's lives and how they are living the one life that they get, that what you might be concerned about is the rules that need to lord over those people that you think should be in place. One thing I think about so often

is the creation of whiteness, right? And the creation of whiteness happened more from my understanding after slavery. When you have sharecropping blacks and poor whites looking at each other and the white people are realizing, all right, now, they used to be slaves. So I felt like I, at least I'm not a slave.

My life might be the same, but they are subservient to me, I am free. Now they're free. Hold on now. Our life is exactly the same. The people in power and capital realize, okay, if they get together, it's dangerous for us. So now if I can't make them subservient by slavery,

I'm going to make whiteness superior to blackness. So now I have something to lord over you again, and it's the color of my skin. Back to your point about me. I'm not even talking about the black church. I wanted to, when I, this is just me, not the black church. what I felt like when I felt that gay people were wrong and they were living in sin, I really felt I'm better than you.

I'm still sinning, though. But your sin is worse. And this is something that I'm hearing, right? The Bible says all have sin and fall short of the glory of God. Liars will have their place in a special place in the lake of fire. But the pastor is saying gay people are somehow worse. since I'm out here fornicating, I feel like I got to make the gay people lower than this is just me.

So I feel like I need to feel a little bit better, man. Lisa ain't gay. Do you think that scripture condemns the gay lifestyle? Brother, when I tell you, sometimes I think the internet was the worst thing to happen to me because I was taught that. What I have now learned is so much of the internet. about the Bible, language, cultural customs cannot be applied on a one-to-one thing with today. I no longer think that the way it was explained to me is exactly the way it was meant to be

explained. So I choose, and I can't definitively say one way or another because I'm not a theologian. And sometimes I'm unsure exactly of what I'm interpreting or even who is saying, right you know what I mean like sometimes it's just like I don't even know how I feel but I do know that I will not make people who are gay feel less than and what's so interesting is uh his name is Christian Smith he's a black theologian deconstructionalist and he and there's another white dude on TikTok Dan something he was saying we interrogate the Bible all the time right there's things in the Bible that happened that we decide as a society, I know that's in the Bible, but we ain't going to do that.

When people were getting married, these were literal children, 12, 13, passed off. You're going to take my daughter as a bride. You're a grown man. You're going to have my daughter who's 13. We have decided, all right, well, I know the Bible says that, but like, come on, y'all. Can't do that. Can't do that. Yeah.

Like, you know what I'm saying? Multiple wives. All up and through the Bible. People have to God's own heart. David, Solomon, wives, concubines. We have decided as a society, I know that's in the Bible, but we just like, come on, y'all. Not really going to do that, okay? If we can interrogate those things, why can we not interrogate sexuality?

Right. If we already are interrogating it, we already have decided there's a certain. age for a man and women should be consent, you know, let me tell you what example blew my mind. A theologian said that David raped Bathsheba. That was a rape or sexual assault. And I'm like, what do you mean? And they were making the point that he was the king. She could not.

She couldn't say no. Could not say no. If you can't give consent, what is that? Sexual assault, rape. I'm like, hold on. That is not the story I was taught. I didn't even have that worldview as a kid when I'm hearing. When you're teaching about David and Bathsheba,

but I'm six or seven, like, I didn't even know. But again, to my point about cultural customs, who is David? If you're in a position of power and this is a woman, if you're brought to the king, you're doing what he says. So she can't consent by our laws in customs. That's considered rape or sexual assault. That's not something I was taught. I think while I was saying the reason the internet was somehow the worst thing for me,

when I was growing up, it was only what the pastor said. It's all I had access to was my pastors. My pastors in my life, not all pastors, just my pastor in my life, none of them went to seminary. Charismatic people, great people, not fully educated in the Bible, the way people who go to seminary are. When I started really understanding the Bible differently is when I started, when I was a youth pastor. And I started to say, like, I don't want to teach these kids something I don't believe. So I'm going to study. Remember, I asked them, which I want me to talk about?

And there was like, we want to learn about tattoos. And I was like, oh, perfect. I'm going to go to Lovicus and tell you why tattoos are sinful. Not to learn to tell you because I've been taught. No man should cut himself up. And just like the dead, I'm going to get y'all. I went on the internet to get a little teen lesson. This white dude wrote, you probably came here.

I mean, this is the first paragraph. You probably came here to tell your teens why tattoos were wrong. And I'm like, why yes, I did. That's literally exactly what I came here to do. Thank you. He's like, okay, the scripture you're looking for is Leviticus 19 and 21 because I couldn't find it. Maybe that's not it. That's what I thought.

And he's like, okay, here it is. And it says, no man should cut the dead. And I'm like, perfect. And he's like, keep reading. And I was like, okay. It's like, read the scripture before that. It's like, men shouldn't cut their beards. I'm like, wait, what?

Read the scripture before that. No, men shouldn't or we shouldn't wear a cotton of two different types. So he's like, check your shirt. Like, this is the article. He's like, check your shirt. Make sure it's 100% of whatever. I literally check my shirt. And it was like, polybland.

And I was like, oh, snap. And then it was basically, Leviticus is a chapter for Levites, two Levites. That chapter, one thing my pastor in Washington told me that was so good because I used to preach. He was like, you shouldn't preach a message until you dissect it in these three ways.

Who is writing it? Who are they writing to? And what are the cultural norms and histories of that time? You need to understand all three of those things before you say anything. Because you can't apply something without understanding how the way the world was at that time. So I kept reading the article.

He basically was like, what you think this says, it doesn't really say. This is basically saying a Levitical priest shouldn't get tattoos, not the layperson. So I had to go to my teens and be like, listen, parents were mad. What are you teaching my son? And I'm like, and I shared the article. I'm like, this is my understanding. what happened, and this is what I think happens a lot of time in the black church, right?

So it's okay. I talked about this stuff on Joe Bud and then Christians got pissed and I'm like, here, go again. But I can't lie to y'all. People don't often want to be challenged. Because if you interrogate this, if this isn't true, then the whole thing falls apart.

And if my whole identity is Christianity in this specific way, if I, if that, it's like taking a jingo piece out. If you mean to tell me gay people ain't going to hell, who's going to hell then? Yeah. And then there's people like, hell might not even be real.

So well, somebody's got to go to hell. Somebody got to go. That's how they, somebody's got to go to hell because I have to be, because I'm going to heaven. It goes back to them.

Yours is worse than me. I'm better than you. No, I think that that's like the biggest thing of it is the old, at least for me, the older you get, you realize not just like what your pastor taught you before

about the three things when you're reading something. It's also, okay, there's different versions. Well, what was going on the world when this version of the Bible came out. Then there's also, well, there were multiple books that were written beyond the 66, so which books were written in and why were these

included? Why aren't these? And so then you start questioning everything. And then really just, even just look at today in 2026. I mean, I went to a small Baptist private school my whole life. So I was getting it from school and I was getting it from church and I was getting things from home. So I understand what you mean about the whole, it becomes your, I'm a, I'm a identity. It's your whole thing. And you don't want to challenge it because then it's like not even just is it a lie, but it's like has everybody been lying to me? And then you can't like it's a really, really hard thing to, I don't, to come to terms with. Yes. And then. And people don't want hard things. People don't want our things. Reinforcing something that you've been taught is actually easy. Yes. Breaking something down and learning for yourself is very hard. I actually don't like why Van don't want to listen to gospel. I don't want to cry. But can I just say that the way we're describing it, doesn't that sound like cult mentality? Now, now you get into dangerous territory.

I'm just saying. You're talking, you're still my God now. But no, I think anything you can't. In the Bible, to your point, they asked God questions. They were mad at God. Jesus, when he was about to get crucified, he said, hey, man, listen, I feel you. But if it be your will to let this cup pass from me, would you mind? he even questioned the thing

and he being Jesus being all knowing. Job, Dave, there's all kind of people questioning God. I'm not even asking you to question God. I'm asking you to question your pastor. Not even God, but the way I was taught, your pastor and God, he's talking directly to your pastor. And if I couldn't question my parents, I for sure can't question my pastor.

But then what happens is we grow up and we learn and our generation is like, we questioning stuff. We question all kind of stuff. And I think what you said, This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services,

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Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information. When it borderlines on cold as if I can't ask questions or I'm shunned for asking questions, We could keep going on and on about this because I would ask you, I would even go into the black church versus black pastor and like elders and things like that. I'm not even going to get into that. I'll ask you one last question. You give so much, you talk about so much, you know, like we know your kids, we know your family, at least what you share.

Yeah. You know, you're involved in so many different things. Is where you are right now and what you've accomplished and what you plan on continuing to accomplish, what is something that you're protecting? at this stage in your life. The funny thing is, I protect a lot of stuff. I give people so much of stuff that they think it's everything, but I've been sharing less and less and less and less. Good for you.

The more visible I become, the less I'm actually sharing about my actual life. I just talked about this on my new grief sucks tour. I'm going to say it publicly here. I probably will never tell the internet with anybody else in my family dies. Never. I realized through the grieving process of my brother,

who was also a slightly visible person, I don't want to grieve with strangers. Grief is very personal to me. I appreciate y'all. But when my mom passes, because I don't want to garner what it is to be a highly visible person, how people, I don't want that.

So my marriage, somebody said this on Twitter, real happy couples, gatekeep a lot of stuff because y'all would tear them apart if you did. All kind of things in my marriage, gate kept. I'd be going on full trips. No content, no nothing. Stuff with my kids, I ask my kids, you mind if I make this a video?

If they say no, I don't make it a video. Like my son had a beard. I was like, let's make the video. He was like, I ain't really feeling it. Bad. Stuff with my kids that happens in their life, actual life. I feel like for visible people, you need good friends,

good group chat, good family. don't let the internet become your friends, your group chat, your family. Because you are content to them. A lot of times people treat highly visible, famous people like they're not human because to them, they're just a character. There's no difference between me, you, Van, then Nimi Leaks, Fadra.

The Patriots. The Patriots. You win enough, they're going to be like, we're sick of these people when it's time for them to lose. It's happening with Drewski right now. And when I say that, I know that sounds like, oh, my God. What I'm telling you is it makes no sense to even be upset about it. It's human nature.

I love the chiefs when they was beating the Patriots. Right. And then they become the Patriots. And you're like, aye, man. Somebody else turned now. Yeah. And so, like, that's not even a critique or something that's meant to be like, oh, look, I'm just saying it's natural.

So be, like, cognizant of how. how you move around. 1,000% I used to, when I got a Maserati, I made a big deal about it. This is, I'm sharing my life. This is a life moment.

When I turned that car back in. What's the name of your Maserati? The Ark. That Maserati is their Maserati now. He turned it back. You gave it back? What? You gave back the Ark?

Gave it back. That oil, let me tell you how I shouldn't even had a Maserati. I'll tell you how I shouldn't have a Maserati. I took my Maserati to Jiffy Lubb. No, you did. You can't even put the same gas in the Maserati.

On Rosari. Ceda Boulevard. Burnt down. I took my Maserati to Jeffrey Loop. That dude was like, what are you doing? I was like, I want to all change. He was like, well, you can't do an all change in Maserrani. I was like, just came here when I had my Toyota.

He said, man, you got to take that to the dealership. I was like, why? Yeah. He's like, we can't do. Sir, you burnt out. Go. Yeah. Take it to the Maserati dealership.

When then people look me dead in my face and said, $900. Matter of fact, a thousand to do the main. I said, yeah. Oh, this isn't me. This isn't me. Lost the Maserati key. I lost car keys all through my life. I go get the other car key, go to the grocery store, go to Home Depot, $2.

Key, Maserati, $1,500. Yeah. What are you telling me? $2,500 from all changing the key, y'all got it. Take this car back. I have a Toyota Tacoma. Okay. that's not me.

Sure. I wouldn't even share if I went back to Masradi. Whatever I could get, never share it. I honestly think sometimes I feel like I'm like closing ranks more.

I just give my opinion on a lot of things. Sure. Saw it on the internet. Saw this. Saw this podcast clip. So you feel like I'm sharing, I'm sharing old stories,

stories that have been public for years, actual life things. Y'all not going to open, now I'm not going to open myself up to me so I can be destroyed and ridiculed. I agree.

No. My thoughts on a lot of things. Stay with the people who I know I can trust those thoughts with. Yeah, the people who allow you to be an asshole. That's the thing, man. I'm not as nice as people think I am. The people who, the people who allow you to be an asshole. The people who, like, are cool when you're having a bad day.

I've been on this podcast having a bad day. I get it. My bad days are not for them. 1,000%. And I'm not even true. I understand. My bad days aren't for them. It's just not.

It's not. It's not wise because you I thought I was special I thought I was special for a while I thought I'm nice everybody love Kev I'm not I'm not special they go after Tab

Keith Lee they go and come out Keith Lee no Keith ain't done How you go after Keith Lee You want to eat food and make y'all happy And the man tries so hard His palate He got the palate

You know what We don't like stuff We don't like nothing Go to the restaurant Sit down at the restaurant Just do the whole thing Lead the people A $17,000 tip

It's not enough It's not enough Yeah you You had issues with it I don't even remember specifically what it was I'm a problem with I don't have a problem with Keith Lee in general It was whatever we were talking about

Stop My point is like To your point I remember when when stuff went bad for me like I made a misstep, made a mistake brother passed away and I remember my life started becoming content

for people's podcast and stuff and I'm like yo y'all talking about me like I'm T.I. and 50 Cid like I'm not famous like that but and I realize sometimes on people's YouTube channel that the video about me was one of their better videos so we got to come back. So you got to come I got it. That's only smart content making. I'm going to go back

what I'm throwing stuff against the wall. Oh, Kevin on stage video, expose, whatever it is. Hey, Kevin on stage, every once in a while. Kev on stage is funny to y'all. Oh, my God. Okay. Okay. They don't whack me on every side with that.

You're okay. I don't, and now the algorithm's like, you used to have to search your name on Twitter to get obliterated. Now the algorithm is like, nigga, they talk about you. Let me show you. You're getting cooked over here. On TikTok, Twitter threads have been so many times. People are like, damn, I'm sorry, friend. what's happening to you.

Wait, what's happening? Or you getting cooked on TikTok right now? What do I do? It's a part of the success. I was getting Mel Mitchell hit me up. I was so sorry for them. They cooking you. I said, what I do now?

Right? I was with my wife having lunch. And what has helped me in real life is every time I've been getting cooked on the internet and I'm out in the streets, have a show or just out, there's a black person showing me love. Yeah. Oh, what up, Kev? My grandma loves you.

Let me get a picture. I'm so grateful that every time I've been cooked, I always have something to do and somebody's always, and I always get shown love, but it always happens that the moment I'm getting cooked online, somebody in real life is like, yo, I love your work. So I just have to accept that sometimes people just jump on the thing

because everybody's talking about it. And last thing I say about it, and you've been so gracious with your time, is like, this is going to sound fucked up. They're entitled to it. I agree. They're entitled. Look, I'm,

I'm, this is the way I feel. What you mean, man? Let me tell you, let me tell you what I mean. This is what I mean. This is what I mean. The way I, I, obviously, I like to go back and forth, okay? You love it. Ben, right, Ben?

Obviously, I like. He talks about his sister. Yeah. Obviously, I like to go back and forth. Yeah. So it is different for me than a lot of people, right? If you come in me and it's completely in bad faith, whatever, there's nothing there, I block you. But the people out there that are consuming,

this stuff that are being entertained, they're entitled to it. They're entitled to their opinion, whether that opinion is right or wrong, whether that opinion reinforces us or not, they're entitled to it. Do I wish that we lived in the type of society where people had the wherewithal

or the time to really go into something with complete good faith all the time? I do, but guess what? I don't do that. And so like, what I know is, every once in a while the shit that happens i'm never going to forget y'all for posting my mom on the reddit never going to forgive that for posting my mother on the reddit ever ever ever ever scum but i worked at tmz for a long time and working at tmz for a long time told me that people

see all of this stuff they're there they want to get shit off their chest and if you're going to be in this space some of it some of it is going to be incumbent on you to detach a little bit bit so you give them a little bit less of you. Like what you said about grief is powerful because like the, the reason why I talk about my dad so much is because I really don't know what to do. Right. I'm fucking sad all the time. I don't know what to do.

You should come to my grief suck show. I should come on there. I really don't know what to do. I'm going to do some more in LA. They sold out real quick, but I, it won't tell you what to do. Yeah. But the, the, the overwhelming thing that people have said from seeing that show is they feel seen.

And I feel like sometimes just being like, I ain't the only person thinking like this is just a relief. And I feel like that too. Like it's tough. When you really love somebody like really didn't, you can't give them that love the way you were able to for many years. That love's still there. And if you have more to say. Yeah. Even worse.

Yeah. Like you have more. We weren't done, man. You were supposed to see me. You were supposed to be proud finally and all of that. stuff like that like and then it's just done and I just gonna be like okay it's cool you the rest everybody go but so sometimes I do that but then you do that and then every once in a while somebody goes I hate you like maggots are eating your father and you go wait a minute I can't

talk about this and like you and even that response like that was like when you when I get a response like this that's full circle when I get a response like that I laugh because I go yo how could you say this to someone? It could be a bot. Right, I know, I know. You could literally be a bot now. I'll show this. I'll be like, yo, look how this nigga is wild.

This nigga is crazy. Like, how could you say this to somebody? Yeah. But, man, this is being fantastic. We got to come back. We definitely got to come back. That might have been the fastest two hours. I almost shut.

I said I wasn't going to talk about the black church again because I don't want to draw the ire but also man it's like I wanted to say this you just reminded me just by your welcoming look one thing that messed me up and I I said two more things I'm sorry we're just going keep going a little bit a little bit little bit I said I protect black women I didn't always there was time I put black people black women at the expense of a joke out in the forefront in my own wife so if I could do it to her I could do it to you I got called out all about that and I was like dang y'all right right that's community Right.

That's one thing. Back to the church. And I want to say this too because it was a point that I was making. I don't know why, but I'm making it. I was taught drinking is bad, drinking a sin. I was like, okay, I'm with y'all. As a kid, I found Seagram's extra dry gin. Find my grandma's TV.

I said, now hold on. Y'all told me drinking was a sin. This is my grandma's TV. I know who put the gin behind there. Me and my brother drank some hot gin one time. Right? It's behind the TV. Big booty TV.

Hot gin. Hot gin. Oh, the mother. We all have the big movie. BBL TV. You could cook something behind that. For sure. That gin was 98 degrees.

Yeah. Okay. Later on in life, my aunt, a church person as well, who went for us, we ain't drinking. That's a sin. She got a Zima in there. And I've seen Zima commercial. Zima. I hadn't heard that.

Yeah. She got a Zima in there. I said, Auntie, I think I'm about him in 19. I said, we can drink these. She said, you can't because you ain't 21. You know, this is not what I'm talking about. We said, during the saying, well, we kind of like, there's stuff that we say and the stuff that we do. The reason I don't feel bad saying this stuff, the Christian, I will not be that I, that messed me up is the Christian to Christians, but I'm actually not that person.

What I refuse to do is wear a Christian mask, because I could say all the right things, right? And unfortunately, there's people that I know that cannot because being a Christian is also tied to their income. So what they actually believe and what they say are incongruent. But if they say what they actually believe, same way politicians are, politicians say what they need their base to hear to keep them in power, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's why rich people would be like,

ain't no abortions. If my kid needs an abortion, there's an abortion for us. Right, right? I can't be that person that is like, I'm going to present to you what I think you want because they're going to hate you either way. So if you hate me or like me, you will love the current version of me. And that person has changed. If you're a Kevin on stage fan, I've lost fans.

When I start talking about this about gay people, a lot of my Christian audience was like, all right, I'm done with Kev. Because when I was young, I was, when I first started making content, I was fully still indoctrinated, right? I didn't talk crazy because I was like, I like, I like the people. But like, you know, I would tweet stuff like, I don't want my stuff. like I don't want my son to be gay because that's what I was taught

and then I had a son and I was like I actually don't feel this but I feel like my audience wants me to say this but then I felt like I can't say something I don't believe

for an audience because that to me is selling out of course to me selling out is taking money and presenting yourself in a way you actually don't believe but you know what to get you paid

so if I lose fans or gain fans I actually rather it be so congruent with who I am now versus I know I could probably hit a lick doing X, Y, and Z, but I can't do that because

like I said, all black people are important to me. And I'm so sorry if you don't feel that way, that won't be, that's a place that we got apart ways. Yeah, you don't want that fan anyway. I don't want that fan anyway. I just can't do it because like, queer black people got it bad enough. I don't want to add to their heartache.

You know what I'm saying? Black people got it bad enough. You know what I'm saying? So I just wanted to say that because I know this is just me saying it to myself because I know I'm opening myself up to criticism but it ain't no criticism that I didn't already hear when I said this stuff on Joe Budden's podcast.

And I agree with you, man. I do the same thing. I watch this movie. I like this person. I don't like this person. I argue in bad faith all the time. I just don't really post it no more. Right.

Because like I'm realizing now because of who I am, I can't say what I used to say when nobody knew who Kev on stage. was because now I'm running into these people. So now I'm just like, you know, like then or y'all, if you got cooked and I just said on his podcast, and after this you say something crazy,

I probably not going to bend you. Well, you did make a video about me about Anita Baker. Because I need to throw you under the bus. That's what I'm saying. I said, I don't always protect black women. That's what I'm saying. Because you were worse than me. And I need to get the heat going your way, Rachel. Why was I worse than you? Because once you knew her, you loved her.

Yeah. You stayed with it. it. And I said, oh, let me direct the black people. After all the criticism, I still feel. You're still standing. Still strong. I don't like it. I feel what I feel. I mean, what's what I'm saying? People got to have there, like that, that, those types of, that's why we got to make sure that we don't feel that we above, because when we say shit like that, people are supposed to be able to get you right because that's disgusting.

Listen, I open myself up to it. I've been dealing with this. Well, you should have seen Deontase reaction. It's really a crazy. That's a tape. That's the take of higher learning. They said Drew Hill is better than Boyst to me. Boyst to me. I've said it on a podcast, but he agreed with me.

I got a lot of flag for that. You know what, we just got to keep pod. You know what? No other topics today. After Cab gone pot over. Okay. We just got to keep pot. What do you mean better?

They're not better, bro. What are you defining as better? Because I love Drew Hill. Drew Hill is great. And I fight for them. So Drew Hill is great. I think that boys to men, if we're being honest, I think that Boys to Men's music,

aged in a way that makes people feel like boys to men wasn't as fucking dangerous or cool. I don't think Drew Hill is dangerous music when I listen to it. I just felt They had one nigga that had blonde. Cisco? Yeah, and he could do backflips. Like that's pretty dangerous.

That's how words of finding. He had sunglasses on. They was out there. There was just, I mean, like, boys to men sounds, it's like lighter to me. It's prettier. Okay, so let me back it up. Let me back it up. The type of music that I like, I want to feel the lyric you're singing. Okay.

Okay, like a Teddy P. Yeah. Like David Ruffin. I referenced him earlier. Yes. I like that. It just makes, I connect to it better. I think boys to men is pretty.

I love their music. I love the songs. But Drew Hill hits to me in a completely different way. Okay. So you're saying, you're making the Mary J. Blige argument. Versus who? Versus who could have a light voice? I'm trying to think of who the

I'm thinking of this as I'm happening I'm just saying people's argument of Mary Jay is you feel her somebody could have a daintier prettier voice but you don't Adele let's say Adele right it's not the same genre but like you they don't sing in the same

actually that's not a good argument because Adele makes you feel her this is why I say like if you like Drew Hill better than boys to men that makes a lot of sense we've got to say what what is better because I keep saying better

right? If you like Drew Hill better. What are we basing what is looking at better? Because Drew Hill cannot fuck with voice to men in any way, shape, or form. Based on what? If you, once again, Mary Jay, like for example, Mary Jay Blige, I'm going to say something that I don't know. Like, there are people who

would, Mary Jay Blige's contemporaries that just, if you just talked about voice, they sang better than Mary J. Blige did. No one made better music. Whatever it is about Mary that gets her into a song, whatever the sensibility is about Mary that gets her into a song that lets you connect to her, the music and the number of hits was also better than the people who

quote unquote have more technically trained voices than her. Drew Hill, if you like Drew Hill better, that's cool. But in no way, shape, or form measurably, is Drew Hill is better than boys to me. We have to take it. We're feeling you as a measure, isn't it? That's one measure. That's one. That's a personal case. So I can't believe we didn't do this.

So when we were at the house and Deonté and Kat were there, we did a verses of TI and 50. Okay. Right? In light of what was going on because we're never going to see one in real life, the two of them. So we should have done a Drew Hill versus Boyst to Man. Because we just ended it when you said there's one song that nothing compares and it's mama. That's what band said. He's like, there's nothing.

They said that. Drew Hill don't even have enough records to be in an, um. That is not. True. Are you talking about you're talking about quantifiable like billboard hits? Drew Hill is to feel you

beauty. That's my idea. Beauty niggas love beauty. I know they love beauty. They love, but you wouldn't qualify to hit the same way of...

Because it's not as to have the crossover appeal. Right. So that's why... If we're doing Billboard, you're right. Yeah. But black people,

we don't, Billboard don't always mean stuff to us. He's looking it up. He's looking at it. He's looking at it. No, but what I'm saying, what I'm saying is, We're talking about Philly.

Hey, we want to have Cisco on the Midnight Boys. I think you guys are underestimating the Boys to Man records that are out there. I don't think that people are thinking back about, so unbendant need that song don't do nothing for you. No, no. Love it. I defit. Love it. I love Boys to Men.

I was just curious what her arguing was. I love Boys to Men for, this is the Twitterification of Boys to Men. There's something happened a few years ago. They're like, you like Boys to Men. and them niggas was singing with their feet doing this in the air. And somehow, once that went out, it was like, boys the men are just squares. They don't make, they got Mariah.

This is not fair, bro. I mean, hits, records. It's so hard to say goodbye to yesterday. Like, they got records that the community. We belong together. I feel like what's happening right now. And you know that I'm right. It's like, I'll make love to you.

That's a good, like, these are. It's a great song. Okay. And by way, if you hate on them, This is also Jimmy Jam, Terry Lewis, this is baby face. But I'm not hating on them. I'm just saying this is because I didn't say this isn't Anita Baker, right? I didn't say their music doesn't move me, that I don't like it.

That is what I say about Anita Baker. I can't find one song that I really love. I just said I want to protect black women. Let's tell you this. You know what happened to me? You know what happened to me? Do you know what happened to me? When I said that, I cannot tell you how many people were pouring their heart.

out to me privately of all the people they were like thank you for being bold enough to say that because there are this person I'm so scared to say I don't feel this person's music I don't like this person I don't mean none of you that don't mean nothing to you it means skip it's so funny that I can't look to the game but I feel it just and I'm not alone I'm just bold enough to say it you cannot argue nostalgia. And black people grew up with Anita Baker. They associate that with good times. And I got to clean the house.

They said I had a dirty house. For sure, you do. That's true. I told my mom that. And nostalgia, period. That's true. But them records are fucking fire. I disagree with her whole heart.

But she's arguing against nostalgia. It's not like I said I didn't like, I don't know, Luther or somebody like that. You did. You did say you did. But actually it's exactly that. Saying you don't like Anita Baker is... That's exactly what you did. No, no, no.

You're saying that she is the woman, Luther? 1,000 percent. I don't fucking doubt. Are you nuts? Not for me. You just said, I don't like never too much. A house is not a home. You just said those records mean nothing to you.

He might as well never exist. That's what you're saying when you say my name. Give me a second to think of who I think the equivalent is. They might be the most one-to-one. Like Anita, but you... Plus, she was independent. Plus freeway Rick Ross funded her first album.

She got street cred. She owns her master. I'm not saying, I don't know who she is. I'm just saying her music. It's a Nina Baker, though. I love that you've done the full research. You know the biography now.

1,000 percent. I want black people to understand. And guess what, Rachel, there's no retribution for me. I'm an outcast. I'm still with you to the black people. I don't think so. I think you redeemed yourself.

It's pumpkin pie, sweet grits, Anita Baker. That's what they call. That's my trifecta of non-black. You like sweet grits? That's crazy. I don't like grits. Oh, man, we are.

Who are we even as people? We're not a model. It's a texture. It's a texture for me. Oh, no, but you know what, though? She doesn't eat macaroni and cheese. Yeah, I don't do dairy. She's like, so she, I think one of the people

when I was still, like, fucking with the radio. There are exceptions, though. They said that they think Rachel has, like, Afrik or something like that? What is that? Afrid? It's like a neurodivergent thing. It's a neurodivergent thing.

Like they're diagnosing kids with this. I've never heard of this. Afrid, they think that Rachel has Afrid. We get diagnosed by our audience is a lot of time. It's just like over time I stopped eating it. So I'll eat it in certain things. So you did like it. I do eat pizza.

Oh, I'm not like those intolerant. I just don't like it. It stinks to me to be honest. Cheese smells. Our frit is avoiding restrictive food intake disorder. It's diagnosed based on a diet. ESM-5, persistent failure to meet, like all kinds of things that you have.

Y'all are laughing at me. All of this stuff. And I have major psychosocial disruption. They say, but you know what? Just like that dude that say, nigger, we can't care. We got to protect ourselves. Just like the guy that said, nigger on the thing, we can't care.

You hate, like, you say like, we gotta look deeper. All right, you guys, there are a bunch of different topics that we had on the. line but there's nothing that can't wait to Monday. This was a fantastic sit down brother. I had a blast. Like a fantastic sit down. Thank you so much for coming. And being open, you know what I mean? I just like y'all, man.

I think this ending conversation is so true like we don't have to all agree on everything to rock with each other. Right. We don't have to love grids or macaroni and cheese or gospel music. It don't, we, we still people. We still niggas, man. We still community. You can disagree with somebody and be like, I don't agree with Kevin on that. Yeah.

That's fine. That's okay. That's okay. You don't think Kev funny? That is fine. You don't think whatever. You can yell at me in the comments because like Van said, I actually come around to it. I was disagreeing when you said it, but I actually agree.

If you're going to be this visible and have this many opinions, that person has the right to say. They deserve they say. I don't even like you. I want to block you. I don't think you're funny. Or I disagree. I've opened myself up to that.

You know why? Because we would accept the conversation. compliments. So it's like you can't accept one and not realize that there's another side to you. That's actually a great point. I would love if you say I love Kev. But I put myself out there enough that I got to force you to make a decision. So cool. I love this. All right, I'm done. All right. By the way, Ian says Micah Stampley is the name of his cousin. I know Michael. Micah Stampley. Good gospel music. Michael Stampley. Michael Stampley. I feel like I met him before too. Shout out to all of the Stampley's people and whatever they got going on.

Okay. Take thing caps off, but do not stop learning on Van Lytton. Junior. I'm Rachel and Lindsay. I'm Kevin. Bye y'all.