Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Daily Wire’s Diversity Hire, Rap Beef, and Freaking Out Over Freaknik

Episode Date: March 26, 2024

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay start the episode with a playbook update (09:49) and discuss Candace Owens and her online presence (11:37). Then, Justin Sylvester comes by to give insight on interracial relationships within the Black and LGBTQ communities (). They are then joined by P. Frank Williams to talk about his documentary ‘Freaknik: The Wildest Party Never Told’ and the internet’s reactions to revelations of the project (57:55) before they end the show with a talk about rap’s “newest” beef (1:46:03). Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guests: P. Frank Williams and Justin Sylvester Producer: Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Hard learning is on. It is I, Van Lathan, Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. All right, so look, I'm going to take the glasses off because Rachel said it's better if I take the glasses off. And I agree. Thank you.

But I want to let somebody, I want to let people know something. A lot of people are asking where you can get these glasses, all right? And it's one place that you can give them. These are Crown Society frames for my man 19 keys. All right. 19 keys. Don't be afraid to 19 keys. Don't be afraid of a black man that's unafraid.

You don't have to agree with everything that he says, but don't be afraid to support 19 keys. Crown Society. I'm going to take them off right now. All right. We can get into the podcast. Look, Crown Society, they're sturdy. They look great.

We'll put them right here so that they can still be looking at Rachel. I'm here in person with you. I want to see you. But you, I wouldn't see you. Hey, Rach, hey, Rach. I didn't ask for that to come off. Rage, I would be honest with you. That is a legitimate, legitimate thing to say.

Thank you. Thank you. But I don't want that to be seen as a rejection of the Crown Society. So look. I like your new look. I like it. How's your weekend? A weekend was fine.

What did I do? Oh, I was able to successfully continue to break in my Spalding official NBA basketball. And what does that entail? So when you buy an NBA basketball, an official NBA basketball, the ball is not ready to play. Okay.

But there's a problem. Hmm. If you take your official NBA basketball to the gym, nobody wants to play with it. Is that bad? It's... Hard?

It's, yeah, it's, when you first break the ball out, it's a little slick, it's genuine leather. So it lasts a very long time, but you have to break the ball in and it takes a while. So what I've been doing for the last, this is, why is it funny? You laugh too. You chuckled. Keep going. But what I've been doing is just getting up and going to break the ball in.

And because nobody will play with the ball, it's just me. running laps around the court and dribbling the ball, pound dribbling the ball, shooting the ball, shout out Irv Rowland. My homeboy who works in the league, he works with Kyrie Irvin

with the Dallas Maverick. Shout to Irv. I hit Irv every day and I show him pictures of the basketball. I'm like, is the ball broken in yet? Is the ball going to get me softer? To me, it's a much superior basketball, but you can't get people to play with it. No one will play with it, especially at Equinox where there are all these Wilson Evolutions,

which is a composite ball, which is a lot softer, easier on the rim. They only want to play with that. They won't play with my official NBA ball, so I got to break it in myself. And you're almost there. I don't think so.

I'm not true. I don't know. Because nobody will play with it. I don't know. Nobody will play with the ball. I know that it's different than what it was when I bought it. It's got a lot of different stuff to it than what it was when I bought it, but the ball is changing color.

It's just such a superior basketball to play with, but you can't get anybody to play with it. So why did you get it? If it's not a good ball to play with, nobody will play with you. Doesn't it sound like it's just for show, like maybe you should just have it as something you keep at the house

because it's an official NBA ball and maybe it isn't meant to be played with? Well, first of all, they play in the NBA with them. They, professional basketball players. Those balls are different. Whoa. heard it as soon as I said it. Oh, father.

Oh, father. Why don't you tell us about the balls in the NBA, Rachel? I don't know anything about that. I don't know anything about that. I'm retired. Yo, so look, but because, okay, there is a reason. Okay. I'm going to drop another name, okay?

Lethal shooter. So I remember I went to this run that lethal shooter had back in the day. shout out to Lethal Shooter and Jack. Jack McClinton. Shout out to Jack, everybody. One of our favorite guests. Shout out to my God, Jack. We went to this run.

There was a lot of people there, but because Lethal is a pro, he will only play with the NBA ball. And I had never played with it before. And so when I was there, I was like, hey, I don't know. It's an acquired thing. Like, if you just go from what you used to playing with to that. And so I was like,

Like, hey, you know, if the pro runs are doing this, why don't I try to, you know what? It's a challenge. I wanted to be challenged. There we go. Do that. I wanted to, and I didn't, when I bought it, I didn't know you had to break it in, though. Like, literally when I first got the ball, I'm like, this sucks. And I call Irv and Irv was like, nah, bro, you got to play with, you got to, you got to break it in.

It has to be broken in. I was like, how long is that take? Well, it's like two months. Like, two months before the ball was ready to play. two months? And he was like, yeah, we practiced with them for a long, long time. And then, you know, then they get used. And so for me now, that's my whole life.

My whole life is getting up. I'll go work out. And then I'll be on the court for two hours. Dribbling, shooting. It's not working. It is. So when it is ready, will you play better? Do you have a better game?

Is your shot better? Like all this work for what? Do you dribble better with it? You do. I really want to understand. You do dribble better with it. Okay. Okay.

You do dribble better with it. And then the answer is I don't know. We'll soon find out. Yeah. I don't know what happens because once it's broken in, people will always choose the Wilson evolution, the composite ball over it. What's that thing over there?

Yeah. I saw you were the only black person. Would you like to tell people what you text? me. What? Like, let's look at it right now. Do you like to tell people which.

So I went on my last ski trip for the season because, as everybody knows, I've really stepped into ski culture. It's been whatever you want to call it, my new hobby. Love it. Love it so much. I went with a different group of girls. Yeah. We went to Vail this time, Beaver Creek, new mountains for me.

So it was a little bit of a challenge. I was trying something new. And I, we got all dressed up. We're in our first. Everybody had a cowboy. on. And we decided to all line up together and take a picture. I'm thinking we look cute, nice, friendship.

That's what we're showcasing. And then I get a message from VAM that says what? One nigger nights. There was nobody for me to laugh with. I couldn't show that to anybody. I just had to hold that inside. You were wrong. Sometimes you have a one nigga night.

And you don't even realize it. Like, yeah, a whole one nigga week. You don't even realize it like. That is so true. Yeah, you don't even realize it. Until you see another black person. Until you see it, right? I remember, shout out to Brett and Dan, my roommates in like 2007 or whatever.

But like I got into this thing to where I would go with them to like Buzzbee's, which was this place to go to out here in L.A. If people know Buzzbee's for young, basically postgraduate L.A. singles, you know? I was a couple years older than them. So I was like 26. They were like 23, 24, 25, something like that. The Buzzbees was a place that you go. And I'm in the car and it's me and it's Dan and it's Brett.

It's Nick fucking Sheptack. It's Ross. It's like these are the whites of life. These are my white homies. And I'm looking around, Joe. And I'm looking around. I'm like, damn, this is a one nigger night. This is actually a one nigger night.

I'm the only motherfucker here. And then Will started coming around. Will jelling and then that was better. but you were having a one nigger night. I had a weekend. A whole one nigga weekend. I don't really do it that much anymore. I rarely do it.

And it's hard with like with that because, you know, now that I'm into skiing, people are letting me know, hey, there's black ski week. Hey, there's certain things that you can do. So next ski season I want to be a part of it. Because it's a little lonely sometimes, right? We go out. I had a great time, though. Love my friends. Great time.

But, you know. Yeah. You start longing for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the whole thing. You're there with them. They're saying stuff. Right.

You're so longing for your people a little bit. So next week, next year, I'm going to try to tap in to find some of my blacks here. Because even when I leave them and I'm in the village, you know, I don't see. We're not there. I have a question. I have to ask you before we get into this topic. Why am I nervous? We have a couple of people on the podcast today.

We have Justin Sylvester on the podcast today. You guys asked for that. Yeah, that's for Justin. I put up a fan thing. A lot of people wanted to know. They wanted to hear from Justin. Justin Sylvester. We're going to talk to Justin Sylvester.

We're also going to talk to P. Frank Williams about the documentary on Hulu about Freaknick. Freak Nick, the wildest party you never told. It's on Hulu right now. I'm going to talk to P. Frank about it. It's one of the creators. By being a lot of questions about the playbook. Oh. Well, it's your playbook.

What are they asking? I'm getting a lot of questions from. the Watts. Oh. And they want to know. What do they want to know? Wow. I want everybody to check that response from Rachel.

I don't think you're reading my response correctly. When I said I'm getting a lot from, I want, I want somebody to break down Rachel's response and the glee. That's actually not what was behind. That washed over her face when I said that there have been what. Actually. the look on my face was like, why? Just wait till you see it. That might have been how I felt.

Okay, well, the look up my face was, why do you care? It looks like you're trying to have a one nigger life. The only nigger in your house. I'm not going to say anything. All right, so. I'm definitely not. So let me say this.

Are white guys, are they eligible for the playbook? Okay. I don't want to discriminate. Okay. But where I am in my life right now, I need black man. That's all I'm going to say. Okay, look, you won't turn your back on low.

I believe it is out. I just, y'all got to give me some space for a second. Right. I need to come home for a little bit. Nees to come home for a little bit. Okay. I need to come home. Never say never.

Never say, I get it. But where I am right now, you've got to, I think this is fair. I think so too. Yeah. spent seven years away. Right. Okay. Now it's time to come.

All right. We got to talk about Candaceotes. Another side of this break. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain,

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futures commission merchant, 18 plus. Bonus is non-withdrawable and expires seven days after trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. Okay. So a lot of news in the Owens sphere here. We're going to start with the daily wire.

Ben Shapiro's daily wire we have right here cuts ties with Candace Owens. That's only partly true. So Ben Shapiro is the founder of the Daily Wire and the CEO Emeritus of the Daily Wire, but he does not have, despite the influence that I'm sure that he has, he does not have an official position with the Daily Wire.

So I do not believe that Ben Shapiro He can't solely do it. He can't fire her. He could probably influence someone to say, hey, we don't want Candidson's around anymore and then fire her from the Daily Wire. Now, he founded it, and I think Matt Walsh and others running right now, I actually looked it up. I'm not sure.

Actually, look up who runs the Daily Wire. I'm not sure. Actually, it might be Jeremy Boring or whatever the guy's name was. He used to be friends with or used to be partners with a guy I know named Joel David Moore. He's an avatar, great basketball player, cool guy. Okay. She's gone. She's gone because really because of her criticism of Israel.

in media for the last X amount of months since the October 7th, Hamas attack and the terrorist attack, and then the subsequent massacre that's taking place in Palestine. She is, in Gaza specifically, she is very, very, very, very outspoken on this. And that has caused the rift between her and the brass of the Daily Wire. It got worse and worse and worse. We saw her fighting with Ben Shapiro, and now she is out. She tweeted, the rumors are true.

I am finally free. She had joined the Daily Wire in 2021. But yeah, she's been very outspoken about it. Before this, I was looking on the internet on valutainment. Okay. You ever watch Value Tamement? I do not. Do you know what it is?

No. Valu Tamement is a platform by this guy named Patrick Bet David. Okay. And he has a bunch of different people on that. I remember I first saw Value Tame it back in the day for some reason he had Kobe on there. I'm like, what the fuck?

Why is this guy? He's a former insurance guy down there. Is it a big thing? Yeah. Okay. But it's conservative. I've seen Sam Cedar on there. I've seen other people on there.

Roland Martin did it one time. It's conservative, but there was a guy from the Daily Wire that was on there, Rubin. And he said, I think that Kenneth won't be around for very long because I think she wants to get fired. And then when I saw that

in tandem with her being on Joe Buttons podcast and the Breakfast Club. We're going to talk about that appearance a little bit later. I was like, oh, well, it seems that Candace is getting out there a little bit more, but maybe she sees her time at the Daily Wire coming to an end. Were your thoughts on this? Were your thoughts on the end of the relationship

between Candace Owens and the Daily Wire? I mean, obviously, I don't have no inside scoop, but it wasn't that surprising. Yeah. I mean, if you've been paying attention to it, she has been very vocal. I mean, Ben Shapiro and her have literally been having Twitter wars. So that started in last year, carried into this year. She's been outspoken.

And even more so, there's certain things that she's been doing where she's trying to reach outside of her typical audience, which now makes even more sense with this announcement and her starting her new platform and her asking people to buy into what she's doing as she's trying to recruit more people to, you know, whatever it is that she's putting out there. So I saw it and I was like All right, that's on par. I think I would have been more shocked if she stayed longer than a year.

I mean, this is six months since they started at least publicly beefing from what we know. For all we know, they've been beefing behind the scenes as well. But I think, you know, to have been Shapiro and whoever else was in that decision to let her go, I think that, yeah, like she had gone. too far for them. She wasn't behaving. How about that? She wasn't behaving like she should for them.

It's one thing for her to step out and condemn other people, but the moment that she started saying something that wasn't in line with they believe, they got to cut her loose and find a new one. That's the fascinating part of this, because something dawned on me. Candice Owens is a diversity hire. Well, she didn't know that. But she is. Of course. Unequivocally, there's no way to, she's a diversity hire. Candace Owens, for all the talk about DEI

and what it means to have somebody on your platform to occupy a space solely because they are black. Solely because they are black, right? That's what people are saying. That's what people, the right paints DEI as this thing to where you couldn't possibly be qualified. Right. That there's no value in it, right?

Because I could tell you right now that there is value in having diversity in the room, diversity of thought in the room, just for sharpening your own ideas, your own perspective, for changing the way you view and look at people, and for making a country that is more functional and deeper. I think diversity in it of itself is a virtue. But people don't believe that. People say, hey, they envision this America where straight white men are the best at everything in every situation and the minute that you deviate,

one iota from their prominent place in America, you get a less effective version of the country. So anything other than that is DEI. Candice Owens has long been somebody that looked at herself and was looked at by people as going against what the grain is, right? Going against the grain and saying things

that might offend you, but that she believes are true. And she's been hailed for that on the right. Haled for it. Yep. Oh, my God. Candice is willing to say this. Right.

And it's true. She thinks freely. And the blacks just don't want to hear. Right, right. And the left just doesn't want to hear it. And the blank and the blank and the blank just doesn't want to hear it. Mm-hmm. That's only okay if she is talking to,

the blacks. That's only okay if she's talking to the left. All the talk of diversity hires and all the talk of what it means to hire somebody just because they are black, just because they represent a thing. Yeah. All of the talk about how corrosive that is, that's exactly what she was. Because the moment that she became something that was a little bit out of step with her, they nuked her. And they did it publicly. Yep. And they did it prominently.

And they made no bones about it. They didn't want the, oh, my God, this is the firebrand. Oh, my God. They didn't want that. What they wanted was a black person to shoot at black people. Yep. And in order for that to happen, that person has to be black. Right.

So all is talk about, oh, my. God, diversity for diversity's sake or whatever, whatever, whatever. Now, there is an ideological aim that they have here, but she's a diversity hire, and I'm seeing them everywhere. Whitlock is a diversity hire at the goddamn... Is that right? No, that's not what I mean. I think he's at the blaze.

The blaze, blaze, blaze. So it's like, I'm watching people that are talking about DEI and that are, that have, look, I'm not going to say I don't know anything about being a token. Well. We could have caught this. We could have called this podcast. That would have been funny. Two talk.

We could have called this podcast. We really could. We would have been fun. But what I'm saying is that just dawned on me. It's like all of the free thought, we're free speech, absolutists, all of that stuff, out the window. The Candace Owens, the Whitlocks that you mentioned, these type of people other themselves. And that's what I love. So if I had to love, I guess, anything about.

this, not that I'd like to see people get torn down, but it revealed something to her that she's never going to admit because they other themselves and think, oh, I'm not like them. I couldn't be a diversity hire because I deserve to be here. I'm this, this, this, this, and this. Those other people aren't deserving to be here. They don't have the knowledge. They don't have the education. They're not that kind of thing. That's how they truly think like that. I have come across a number of black people who other themselves from other black people, and take pride when they're big-uped by white people because, you know, they see it as a prize.

I don't know, I guess. I don't know. I don't think that would. I'm not saying Candace Owens is smart. I'm not saying she's not good with words. I'm not saying she's good at the particular... All those things. Look, we want to talk about it.

What I am saying is that it's clear that Candace Owens existed at the Daily Wire for a specific reason. keep naming them. Prager You. Prager You, turning point, all of these places. She might still be working

with Prager You, but she's been through a lot of the different turned out. She's been through a lot of the different organizations in the whole nine.

And it's like, it's that, that's the thing. So when this happened, I was like, oh, so, you know,

it's just interesting to me. Years and years, and years, and we're going to get into it, of saying things that are offensive about black people that call into the very concepts of solidarity, that call into question the concepts of solidarity, blackness, identity within our community, and everybody is waving pom-poms. The minute she is slightly critical, slightly critical of what's happening over there, and it is perceived. It's not really.

It's perceived as a slight at a different culture, and she gets nude. Okay, that's the news there. Now, the second part of this is that Candace Jones appeared on the Breakfast Club. She appeared on a Joe Buttons podcast before she appeared on the Breakfast Club. And I didn't see it.

It was behind the paywall. Which I'm almost not mad that he made people pay for that. I don't know. It just made me laugh. Yeah. I don't like that he did the interview. Obviously, we talked about that, but it made me laugh that, well, you've got to pay for it. I'm going to make money off of this.

Yeah, I mean, but Umar was behind the paywall too, I think, for Joe Biden. There were so many super compelling parts of the Umar interview that busted through the paywall. I did see some of the candid stuff on there, but the, uh, the Umar stuff just went viral,

the whole thing between Umar and Ish where it was like, Are you mixed race? No. Are you a bunny hop? And it's just funny. Umar is this funny. And a couple of back and forth are... He is funny. I'm not going to... I can't stand him, but he's funny.

Just funny. I hope to have him on the podcast. Would love it. Open the playbook back up then. She was on the breakfast club. Did you see it? How did you feel about it? I hate I watched it. Let me ask you a real question. Sure.

What the fuck is going on over there? At the breakfast club. Okay. dead-ass serious. I watched that interview. I had people hitting me up about that interview before I sat down and watched it. The only reason I press play is because I knew we were going to talk about it on this podcast. And we have to. Right? We have to. I watched it and I kept thinking, how is this happening and why is this happening and what the fuck is going on over there at the Breakfast Club. Charlemagne, I know we talked about this before, has started to have more political

conversations, they start to talk about things like that. And I understand it's even more necessary in 2024 and even more necessary in an election year like this with Trump versus Biden. We've talked about that. Just an envy. And I mean, from what I watch on this, nobody seemed ready to have that conversation with her. And that's why I say what is going on because it clearly was, and but they end it this way. You just want, you literally said we should have different voices and we should allow them to talk and share their views and for people to just take what they want. There's nothing wrong with that, but when somebody tells a lie or somebody says things that are false and they're doing it to sway you to their beliefs or, you know, like it could be anything,

religion, then that's problematic. And you have a duty on your platform to stop that. You have a duty to say something, especially if you acclaimed to be, you know, into politics or down with that. And then it's just as black people, I guess, laughing and keeking with Candace Owens, envy barely asked questions, just just ad-libbed. She might as well have been an audience member. It was just extremely frustrating to watch.

That's just my general thought. Before diving into anything else, I was very upset because I do feel like a platform like that. We said before people go on the breakfast club because they know breakfast club has the ear of black people. I was very upset at the way that they handled all of that. I'm not saying it had to be confrontational.

They could have challenged her on specific issues. And they fell to me right into exactly what it is that she is doing, which is trying to act like she's down for us now. Or she loves black culture when she has said so many particular things that are negative, hateful, and racist about black people and then empowered other people who are not black to do the same. So that's what I'll say. I was disappointed with the interview for sure, without a doubt.

I was disappointed in an interview, and I talked to Charlemagne multiple times this weekend. I was disappointed in the interview because of what the breakfast club has meant to me. Now, no platform is a perfect platform. Sure. Right. But what the breakfast club has always meant to me, particularly when they do interviews with political figures or people who have political talking points is that the breakfast club then is like a and not for everyone 40 million black people in the country but the breakfast club

becomes to me what it becomes a measure of how you act when you're around black people talked about this before remember lee zeldon on the breakfast club a different different people the big Ramoswami on the breakfast club they act differently when they're there and you get to see, they do. They act differently when they're there. Hillary Clinton acts differently when they're there. Nikki Haley acts differently when they're on there. To me, the most important thing is

seeing how they comport themselves when they think they're talking to black people. I've said this before. There's no reason for me to watch another Nikki Haley interview or another Vivek Ramoswamy interview. I've seen a bunch of them. I've seen town halls. I've seen this.

I've seen that. You watch them on the, Breakfast Club, whether or not they are talking to Black America, they think that they are. And so the way that they act when they think that they are is very important. They get nervous over certain questions. They get asked questions that they haven't been asked before. They get asked direct questions, right? And a lot of these people get asked questions that they didn't ask Candace Owens,

even though ideologically she's on the same side with these people. Yeah. Right. For example, you're talking to Candace Owens about this is her black American coming out party because honestly, her entire issue was that black spaces wouldn't invite her on. Right. It's not that she wouldn't do them. So anyone that's saying that like she's doing the breakfast club and she's doing Joe Budden and she's doing these things. Now, that's only partly true.

I mean, it's definitely, the timing is definitely interesting, but she would always complain that she would never be invited. on those other places. Allegedly, Roland has invited her so many times and she's never gone. Perhaps. Maybe she doesn't want it with Roland. I wouldn't if I were. It could be. It could be. I would think I mean, she had Mark Lamont Hill on her show.

So I would think that she had Hawk Newsom on her show. Several times. Right. So I wouldn't think that that would be a problem for her to but maybe she doesn't want to go on there for whatever reason. Maybe that's too much of an away game for. But what I'm saying is

the questions that are asked to those people, they are asked to them, I feel like, in order to vet them for the audience, in order to vet them to say, hey, we're getting to the point with this person about how they feel about the lives of black Americans, how they feel about black people. And these are the question we're going to ask.

So Candace Owens is on the show. She's not asked about reparations, right? Which is something that almost every white politician that will go on the Breakfast Club, what be asked about. She's not asked about things that she said that black people cared about. Correct. Right. She's not asked about any of that. Right. She's not asked about George Floyd. I'm not, I talked to him and he told me, I don't want to get into our conversation, but I don't think they were looking at it like that. I agree. They said what they were looking at it as. I don't think they were looking at it like that.

I'll say this, the Breakfast Club is a conservative platform. Are you saying because of who they're owned by? No. I'm saying that because if you do a comment, autopsy about in the comments of that, they're overwhelmingly positive, right? Like, overwhelmingly positive. And there are two reasons why. One is because Candice Owens

essentially gave a stump speech when she was on there and there wasn't a lot of challenging of her ideas or of her past or things that she said. And then number two, there is and there's truth on both sides of it is. One is that black Americans are much more conservative than we give them credit for. Way more conservative. So you can go on there be vaguely anti-LGBT or minimizing at the very least.

You can go on there and say that feminism is bad and black men need to be head of the households. And you can go on there and say, hey, the strength of black people is in the black family, right? those are three things that are going to be non-controversial to a lot of the people that come from the community that I come from, right? Whether or not we need to do deeper litigation of those things or whatever, those are going to be three things, they're going to be like, ah, maybe. Like, we're making too much of a big deal out of this. We need black men to be to leaders in the household, and we need black families. You go there and you say that, people are going to be like, oh, that makes a lot of sense. And I've never heard this from her before.

The question is, like, what else is not being talked about? It's half-truths. Like, and that's, that's where the frustration was. Exactly. There were certain things that she said that I'm like, yeah, I understand, like, why you don't trust the government. I understand, you know, like, why you don't always trust the media. That's the thing. People who are in the comments, they're just listening to what she's saying without actually doing any follow-up.

And that is where, to me, somebody like Charlemagne comes in who is, I would think, well-versed and well-read on, hey, well, if you're going to say this about LBJ, make sure let's talk about what happens. to them in the 80s, to black people in the 80s too. Like if you're going to talk about this side of things, you know, like, oh, I'm going to talk about education and this and what's not being taught. But I'm also a part of Prager You who puts out these silly little stories about slavery and black history that are factually incorrect as well. Like, they're just to me, there just could have been a better balance.

I want to say this. You know, Jess is a comedian. Jess hilarious is a comedian. She's a comedian. She's on the Breakfast Club to do the rumor report, Jess with the mess. She has a lot of insights into things. She's a comedian. Typically, and I'm not saying that to diminish her at all because I think she's very talented and she's incredibly smart.

But I wouldn't expect her to do the heavy lifting in an interview with Candace Owens. I wouldn't even expect envy to do it. Really, in this interview, the person that normally does the heavy lifting and litigates these things. It's Charlemagne. If we're being fair, even when there is a politician that is there, it's Charlemagne who does these things. I think he went about this interview in a way that was just having a conversation with Candace Owens. Excuse me. That was just having a conversation with her.

And I think if there wasn't, if there weren't things in her past to talk about, that would have been fine. But if we just go ahead. No, keep going. I just was going to, the only thing I was going to add to that is, yes, if there weren't things to talk about that she said, and that if she, if it wasn't so obvious to me what she's doing. Right. So Candace Owens, to me, has trafficked in anti-blackness for years. And anti-blackness in a very specialized and insidious way, right? There's this fallacy of respectability that people on the black rights sometimes deal in.

And it's this sort of amorphous belief, not really solidified, but everything gets back to the basic premise that black people have to earn justice in America, which is at the center of respectability politics, that black people have to earn justice, that the justice isn't guaranteed but based on something. Black people don't want to have to earn justice in America. They want to know that justice in America is real. They want to know that equity in America or equal rights in America is real.

They don't want to talk about why they don't have it. They want the actual belief that it exists. And so when we talk about things that happen, particularly events that people coalesce around, what we're really talking about is whether or not these things exist. exist in a framework of justice and equality. Yes. And Candice, time and time again, subverts those things. And she plays this intellectual sleight of hand

that wants to make you look at something different. Correct. And not on what it is that we're actually talking about. Well, there were certain things that she said, and you could sit through this interview. We would need, like, three podcasts to sit through and talk about everything that she said. and to go back and forth with it.

Something that she kept saying two things. One, she kept talking about how black people were better under Trump, right? That was her talking point. She kept saying it over and over again, not acknowledging where, how rates have gone down currently where we are, not acknowledging that an administration before may have impacted where we were in those years, not acknowledging certain things that had happened. But she also, like you said to your point, points to a specific thing and wants you to look at it. She really honed in on LBJ.

She really honed in on welfare. She really talked about the black family, the lack of black men, how black women were incentivized not to have black men leading in their homes, not to have families so they could get a check. It's playing into these racial stereotypes that are extremely problematic, pretty much what Ronald Reagan did when he kept talking about that whole queen of welfare thing, which was not correctly put out there in a way to scare white people about how black people and brown people are incentivizing the government to get wealth.

The thing with Candace was she talks about LBJ and she talks about welfare and she talks about black people and how they were better before. She doesn't tell the whole thing when she said black people were better in Jim Crow, but doesn't acknowledge that black people are suffering in so many areas outside of the economy, which has an impact on how black people are. She only talks, she doesn't talk about the racism. She doesn't talk about the lack of laws. She doesn't talk about discrimination.

She does not talk about black people and how they suffered in the 80s under Reganomics. She does not talk about how that created a racial wealth gap even larger than before. She doesn't include these things and says one thing where black people say, huh, well, I never thought about welfare like that. I didn't know that about LBJ without telling the whole truth. That's something that really bothered me about her. And specifically, she talked about how the media says things that she doesn't say. She says they take a headline and they don't put it in quotes because,

that's not exactly what she said. And she gets called in semantics of, I didn't say those exact words, but what she doesn't acknowledge is the implication of what she's saying. She said, they said, I said, their racism doesn't exist. What she said was stop taking away our self-confidence by telling us that we can't, because of racism, because of slavery, I have never been a slave in this country. The implication there is because I'm not a slave and because racism is tied to slavery, the racism is not the same anymore, as if it's not prevalent, as if, it's not keeping us down, as if there aren't systems, as if the ideas and institutions and executions from slavery have not affected us to where we are today in 2024.

That, to me, is still saying, you are saying in a way or implying that racism isn't there. And that, to me, is what she does so, dare I say artfully, with using her words in a way of saying, I never said this specifically, but what do you imply when you said that? Just like what she was talking about Fannie Willis. Oh, I called her a ghetto superstar. That's a great song. She is a superstar. No, you called her a ghetto superstar.

What are you trying to imply? That's something else that they didn't push back. Anyways, I could keep going. No, no, no. I mean, that's essentially what we're talking about, right? We're talking about the difference is really in philosophy more than it is in anything else, right? Yeah, yeah. So if you were to say that black people, that racism is gone,

or that races that you've never been a slave so there's no racism, I guess what I would say to any. who felt that way or thought that is what does the legacy of America's racist past represent, right? Like what, when did the spigot get turned off to where everything was equal and then you move on? When I say equal, I don't mean totally equal because things will never be totally equal. I mean, equal in the sense that you don't have to worry about the albatross of systemic discrimination. You don't have to worry about systemic exclusion. You don't have to worry about the disparities environmentally and politically where you live in your achievement.

And if those things are gone, then we don't need to talk about them. Then what we can do is we can say, you know what, it's all our fault. It's all our fault that things aren't moving the way. I'm willing to have that conversation about what it is that we should be doing. But I'm willing to have it in the context of what should we be doing to overcome the very obvious. obvious systemic issues that America presents. Sure. And those issues are not,

um, those issues are inextricably linked to history. They're inextricably linked to situations. Like if you talked about the, uh, the Greenwood massacre as, um, as a one-off thing in history, it's a terrible, terrible occurrence, right? But if you talk about it in the way that it affected black homeownership,

not just in Tulsa, but in Oklahoma, black homeownership, which then is the fundamental building block of American wealth, home ownership is. When you talk about what was taken out of the community with something like that that happened, then you start to get to the reasons that we need to talk restoratively

when we talk about justice. When you start to talk about what it meant to keep black people out of homes, what it meant to keep black people in certain places, what it meant to do all of that, You start to talk about, okay, well, what do we have to do now to address this? And is there a link and a connection to the past and to the present? We're not living in the past totally when we're saying these things because we're talking about statistics and realities that exist now. And I think one of the main goals of the right is to say that that conversation doesn't have merit.

That the only conversation that has merit is a conversation that says America is the greatest place in the world. and because it's the greatest place in the world, your fate in America is based upon what you make it. Okay. If you parse that apart. Your fate in America is based upon, to me, not what you make it, but how you attack the challenges that America throws at you. And the question is very, very, very directly.

how can we address those challenges? No one is ever saying that we are going to take them and throw them out. Sure. How can we address the challenges that America presents disproportionately for some of its people? That's the thing. That's it. It's very simple. It's not anything that anybody has to cry about.

it's a very simple set of intellectual truths that you need to get on top of. Candice Owens has earned the belief that people thinks that she's anti-black. And if she's going to clear that up and if she's going to demonstrate that she's not, then that's on her.

Actually, I sent you something, Candice Owens, I just want to make, give an example, here. This is after the death of George Floyd. I'm getting to a couple of other examples of things that I think that she said were anti-Black, but this is after the death of George Floyd. This is what Candace

Owens said regarding Derek Chauvin. These were subsequently called at him. Now, there is no dispute and no argument that you're going to hear from me that what Derek Chauvin did was right. And the reason why I'm not talking about Derek Chauvin is because we actually have reached a consensus in this society.

Everybody agrees that what he did was wrong. Everybody is happy that he is arrested no matter what color you are. And every single person hopes that justice is served to George Floyd's family. That is not why I'm doing this video. This is not a defense of Jerich Chauvin. This is not a video to say that when you are a criminal, you deserve to die. Nope, none of that.

I want to talk about martyring criminals. I want to talk about suddenly putting them on. Her point about George Floyd, because she talked about George Floyd, was that it was a very almost boring critique from the right, that George Floyd was such a bad guy. that we should make a big deal out of the fact that he was killed or we should make a big deal out of him. Right?

Once again, a vague theory that justice is earned. For everything that George Floyd was, he was other things. I come from a place where a lot of the people that I knew, a lot of people that I loved, a lot of the people that I was around were criminals. and some of the crimes they committed were heinous. When those people died, people cried. And you know what we remembered them as?

Brothers and fathers and sons and people that made us laugh and people that could dance and people that can sing. I never, ever, ever went to a funeral in my life. Ever. When we put somebody in a box and went, here lies a rotten person. Right.

Here lies a criminal. Here lies a guy who on August 31st of 1976 did this. That's not, I mean, you know what I mean? I've never been in one of those either. And so just that in it of itself that we should lead all of the discussion around George Floyd about like who she thinks George Floyd was. Isn't it of it just odd, right? All right, well, beyond that, she says everything she just said about Derek Chauvin.

Only she did do that. After this, Candace Owens made a documentary, which I watched, and in the documentary, was part of it, she tried to make the case that Derek Chauvin actually didn't kill George Floyd. So she actually,

even in that, even the small glimpse of hey, now this is after there's been a trial and there's been a determination by medical examiners. Everybody can go get this for yourself. She always quote Shelby Steele when she talks about the intellectuals that she was inspired by.

Eli Steele, the son of Shelby Steele, who made a documentary with his father, wrote an op-ed criticizing Candace Owens after that documentary came back. She went even too far for them. It doesn't stop there. Candice Owens said Juneteenth is ghetto and made up.

What would be ghetto and made up? First of all, all of these different commemorations and holidays are made up. What would be ghetto and made up about celebrating the end of slavery? Really? If there's anything that should be made up in America, anything that should be made up,

they should have been just sat around and went, you know what, March 3rd, we're going to celebrate the end of slavery. Everybody is off work. Everybody gets, boom, into slavery, cool. The fact that we actually continuously call slavery the worst portion of American history, but there is not a nationwide effort to commemorate the end of it. Wow. They want to forget about it.

Right. It's a thing. And to call it ghetto is to say. It's trigger word. It's ghetto. It's for niggas. And it's made up. All right. Candice Owens did blame the right people for the death of Philando Castile.

However, she said that it was an anomaly that should not be focused on. A lot of black people looked at the death of Philando Castile. We looked at him as the perfect victim. Like, here's a guy that was reaching for, and the cops popped off on him. I could go on what she said about Breonna Taylor. She's never, she never misses the opportunity to. trigger us and be off code, the cops acted right in Breonna Taylor.

That's what she said. They walked in, no knock warrant. Brianna Taylor's boyfriend at the time doesn't know who it is. They fired boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, into the building killed Breonna Taylor. Brianna Taylor's murdered, a wanton disregard for life,

wanting endangerment. Candidson doesn't have a problem with it. No. Doesn't have an issue with it. Let's have it with you. Still contends and believes that the Central Park 5 committed the actual crime

that they were unfairly convicted for and then refuses at it right here. Look, right here. It's after doing the work, this officer Tatum said this in 2019. This is all in reaction to Aver Dovernae-Making when they see us.

It says after doing the research, I agree. with Trump about the Central Park Five. These guys were not innocent little kids, but young man who admitted to multiple crimes, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then Candace Owens comes back and says, this is exactly the problem. The media relies on black emotion. Few people read the details of the case. Now blacks are once again being emotionally manipulated by leftists. I agree with you wholeheartedly, Brandon. The Central Park Five were not innocent. I want everybody to understand that there was a confession in the case of the exact, the

A confession in the case. And then they were exonerated by DNA when the guy who admitted to it, his DNA was found on the victim. The left is not responsible for exonerating the exonerated five. The actual legal system is they got one right for a change after they coerced, bullied, and manipulated these young men. into doing and saying something that they weren't involved in. When are you, I mean, I could go on, right? Like, it's... You could go on.

She testified in front of Congress that white supremacy and white nationalism are not a problem that's harming black America. Her words, quote. Well, I mean, look, so all my thing is this. If we want to have a conversation about Candace Owens, if we want to talk about Candace Owens, the capture of the right over Black America is happening and it's going to be successful.

I am completely sure that it's going to be successful. The right-word shift of black people right now in America cannot be stopped. I don't think it can be. And I don't think it can be because the people on that side,

if they ever wanted to actually target black people, there's this weird, I don't even know how to articulate it. There's this weird pocket. This trust of government makes sense for black people. Yeah. Distrust of medicine makes sense for black people. Distrust of media. Distrust of media makes sense for black people.

All of these things make sense for black people. They all do. My daddy actually used to say, shit, I might consider voting for the Republicans if I didn't know that they hated niggas. He was like, when you look at my life, I might consider it if I didn't know that they hated niggas. All of these other things that we deal with, the clinging to religion and all of that stuff. if you don't push her, if you don't litigate her and who she is and what she said, if you're not interested in doing that, the top part of her, like the surface of it is going to seem palatable. Exactly, which is why we go right back to what we were saying at the beginning of this.

I do not understand what they were doing. I don't understand why they allowed that to happen. and to me they furthered her cause and the black conservative cause. They applauded her. I mean, Jess was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, it's great. Yeah, people get it wrong. Like, they literally were like a sounding board for her.

They were a choir behind her. It doesn't matter that they were asking her questions. The questions that were being asked were for her to further explain what she believes. There was not one challenge in any of them. And if you, I believe exactly what you're saying about. black people being affected by conservatism and the right being able to have a hold on them. I believe Charlemagne knows that,

which is why if that's not what you believe, then I don't understand why you allowed that to happen. I just, I don't think, I think it was, I don't think the purpose of having Candace, how about this? That woman is dangerous. Just listen, I don't think the purpose of having Candace Owens on there was to litigate whether or not she was anti-

black and I don't see why. To me, that would be the first thing that you would want to... I mean, I think to me, that would be the... That wasn't the purpose. The purpose, I think, for the breakfast club was just to have a conversation with Candace Owens, who is somebody that they

say the audience have been asking for to come on the show? Because they thought that they would be better with how they handled it. Right. You want a conversation with Candace Owens? Talk to her on her phone since you were bragging about having her number and she changed it. Like, talk to have that conversation with her off mic. People were begging for it because they had no idea that is the conversation

that you would have with her. She is dangerous. I used to go back and forth with Candace Owens in the DM. But that I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that. What I'm saying is if all you wanted was a conversation, then have that behind closed doors. People were asking for it because they thought that you would do better with that type of conversation. To me, you cannot have a conversation with her, especially on a black platform without litigating Because we can talk about other stuff. We can talk about, you know, what she said about. It's like there's some small stuff, like a small thing.

Two little small things that just jump out. She goes, play the clip about Trump real quick. But I thought it was weird when all of a sudden the people that liked Trump, you know, everyone thought he was like this iconic symbol of business. He was in rap songs. Trump was the status flipped on him in one second. I just didn't buy the narrative that he was in the media for three, four decades. and suddenly you wanted me to believe overnight

that he was like Adolf Hitler and a racist. So I just didn't trust the media's narrative about him. And so I decided to actually listen to what he said. Okay. So cut it right there. That's like two minutes into the interview. Yes. Okay.

That's just not true. So just real quick, I'll give you guys an example of something real quick. So I'm sure there were people that weren't paying attention to Donald Trump until he decided to run for president. But there are two things that happened there. One is that way before Donald Trump started to run for president, he started pushing a birthar line.

This is like 2011. Yeah. So the rightward shift, you guys don't remember this, Donald Trump offering money for Barack Obama's birth certificate. Donald Trump going back and forth with Rosie O'Donnell because of all of these different things. Donald Trump's rightward shift, his rightward shift into some sort of stalwart of the right, the far right, began way before then. It's not true that Donald Trump just decided to run for president and then everybody.

went, we hate Donald Trump. That's not true. Donald Trump started campaigning. Donald Trump started talking. The rapists and murderous things. People got an image of who Donald Trump was when he was running. And they were like, we don't like this. But when you say something like that, it goes,

the media is fake and false. And as soon as Donald Trump started running for president, everybody flipped up on him. That makes people go, I had a conversation on my IG with my homie Graham. And he just goes, why does everybody want to come, to try to come get Donald Trump?

That makes me think that maybe they're trying to take him out because they don't want to hear what he has to say. I'm like, my nigger, did he fucking hide the documents or not? My nigger, did he fuck with the shit in Georgia or not? Did he do it or not? So many people want to believe in conspiracy theories, and that's a whole other issue. Listen, the woman is dangerous.

And if you don't believe that, you don't believe what kind of impact she has, because I do believe that her message is never for black people. It never is, which is why it was funny that they allowed this conversation to happen and give her a black quiz as if we can just joke around with her, and it's all fun and games now with Candace Owens.

Look at my comments on the post where I posted about Candace Owens being black. Thousands and thousands of white people defending her, telling me how black she is, telling me how factual she is, telling me about how she's a free thinker, how I am scared of her, how I am wrong, and she is right.

thousands. That's the kind of impact that Candace Sones has. All I'm saying is to anyone that would platform or have a conversation with her, I'm not against platforming her. I'm not against having a conversation with, I'm not. I know. I'm not against going back and forth. I'm not going to further her cause. That's fine. You, it's a, it's a teen thing here. So it's like, whatever. But what I'm saying is, it's like,

if we had any white person on a a platform and they had said a small percentage of these things. Exactly. We would talk about it and we would ask them about it. They would be upset about it. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you?

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Forty grams of protein. Made to keep up with whatever. comes next. New sweet green wraps hit different. Order now at order. dot sweetgreen.com. Justin, you guys, you asked, okay, I put up on social media. Want to talk about it. Put up on social media. What do you guys want to hear us talk about on higher learning? And so many people said, hey, they want to hear from Justin Sylvester because we've been teasing about you coming on this podcast. Justin Sylvester, if you don't know, where have you been? He is the host of E-News. You can catch him once, twice, co-hosting

whatever, doing all the things on Hoda and Jenna. He's been on Broadway these days. What is it that he does, excuse me, twice? Twice. Jesus Christ. Twice. There is nothing that this man cannot do. He is my friend.

And I'm so excited to have him on the podcast, Justin Sylvester. Oh my God. Thank you so much. I'm just so happy that a blackety black podcast finally had me on. Okay. now. You know who you sounded like just for a second there. We were just having this conversation. Don't do that. Candace Owens. Don't do that. He said it. He said it. Don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do that. By the way. He goes, wait. Go ahead. Defend it. I've been listening. Like, I had been trying to figure out why everybody's going so soft on her. Like, I'm dying over here. Okay. I'm dying.

Because I finally thought, oh, let me, you know, hear her out. Let me go ahead. You know, Charlemagne's always so hard. Joe Button's always. so hard. Just with the mess is always so hard. Everybody took it easy on her. And I, it was, it was strange to me, but I don't know. There's some things I can say about this, but we need more than hour. Yes, we will not put you, we will not put you on the spot. And no, I would never be friends with anybody who was

anything similar to Candace Owens. But I'm happy to have you on a blackety black podcast, as you said. Justin, where do I even start? Okay, so Van, I'm happy to have you here to help me out. Now, Van always is on to me about the fact that I... Don't make a face. Date outside your race? Thank you.

That I date outside my race. He loves to make jokes. He loves to poke fun about it. It's not that. It's not that she dated outside of her race. Okay, married. Married is the thing. Oh, shit.

Oh, wait. Excuse me, Justin. We got some family business, sweet. Hold on the line. Let me get Dr. Phil on the line. Hold on. Let me just go on record right now. Number one, I don't care.

It's just fun. Okay, I don't care. It's just funny. It's a funny thing to poke fun at somebody about. It's just a funny thing. There are parts of it. I mean, it can be corrosive, like not in Rachel's case, but in other cases, when people use their preference to minimize somebody else,

obviously, it could be corrosive. But it's just a funny thing. Everybody thinks I have a problem with it. It's just a funny thing. thing to make fun of somebody. Yeah. And it's, it's, we've had more conversations about it in regards to what's okay when white, black women do it versus when black men do it.

Yeah. Why do black women date outside of their race? Why do black men date outside of their race? Why do we typically see successful or famous black men date outside of their race? And then it led us to a conversation we were having about Gerard Carlin, which I just watched Rothaniel. I know I'm late. I just watched that on the plane.

It's a brilliant guy. Absolutely incredible. I'm a huge fan and I can't wait to start watching his reality show. I actually heard the conversation, actually. Before we even start the conversation, I want to say to Van, thank you for questioning your allyship because I find the best allies are the ones who question if they could be doing more. when someone says out loud,

I know I'm an ally, but I could be doing more. And I don't know, to me, that's very powerful because it then makes other people. It's like the flu shot. You hear somebody got the flu shot. You're like, should I get the flu shot? And the conversation starts going, and you don't even realize it

with just questioning yourself how big of an impact it makes. So thank you. Oh, wow. Appreciate that. So what's your thoughts? Because look, this is the thing. I saw a Othaniel thing.

I've been following Jared's, a Gerard's career for a long time. And it's very powerful him stepping into himself and his identity and all of that stuff. But when I saw his boyfriend, I was like, you know, I know a lot of black gay fellas

and a lot of them that I know they're with white guys. And it seems to be maybe it's, maybe this is anecdotal, but it seems to be a trend. There seems to be a thing there. Is there a thing there?

First off, is that a thing? Is that a thing? Yeah. No, I think what you're seeing, first of all, I'm speaking from my own experience. I'm speaking from my own therapy. I'm speaking from my own work on myself and on relationships and on how I view things. I'm also on the record going to tell you that I'm an equal opportunity data. Okay.

I will go from black, blackety black all the way to white. Like Paisley. Okay, I'm all over the place. Resilians, Argentinians. I have been all over the spectrum. Just now, don't put yourself out there like that. No, I'm just letting you guys know. I'm here for it.

What I will say is I think there are a few reasons why you see it and you recognize it more prevalently. I think one, for myself, growing up, when I was slowly starting to figure out who I was and, you know, come into terms with being gay, I think a lot of the people who kind of tormented me on a day-to-day basis were young black guys. And I found refuge and women. And that's why you see a lot of gay, straight women alliances, because when you're going through figuring out who you are, who you like, who you love, a lot of times your peers are the ones that, you know, drug you through the dirt for who you were.

even the guys that you were experimented with denied even knowing you when you walked out. So, you know, looking at some of my uncles who said, you know, some very off-color things, not even knowing that the bigotry behind them or that they were saying it to somebody who was hiding, that secret here, a lot of times I didn't think I could ever get love from a black man until I got older. because, you know, the love that I was supposed to get from my friends and from my dad or from my uncles or from anyone, the people around me, it just wasn't there. So a lot of times you have to go through this journey of not only finding love with other black men, but also finding love within yourself because, you know, you were told at church, you were told that school, you were told in social settings that you weren't worthy and that you were shit and, you know, you were F this and, you know, you don't even realize how much rebuilding you have to do as a gay man. I think another thing that kind of sort of happens,

and you notice it a lot in Hollywood, when I got to a bigger city and realized that people are freer and they're dating and they are experimenting and this free love thing kind of happened to me in West Hollywood and people were dating outside of their race, you're like, oh my God, this is phenomenal. So you're just being exposed to other cultures and other people. And a lot of times people don't even realize that they are only clocking you when you're dating a white guy.

Because nobody would be like, oh, he's dating a Brazilian guy. You know what I mean? Or Don Lemon's with an Asian guy. Like nobody would really be clocked that. I think you only are clocking the black man, white men thing. So you're noticing it as much because of your trauma as you are anything else. Like it jumps out at you because of the way you view interracial relationships. It's not as prevalent as you might be making it, but you notice it more because you're like,

oh my God, that feels weird. I think you notice it more because you know, you know, were conditioned to, yeah, yeah. I think people, I mean, listen, I had a situation where I dated a white man who left me for a white man. And all I could think about was he left me for a white man. Meanwhile, he's a white man. Like, you know, we were just conditioned growing up that interracial relationships weren't worthy and weren't seen as okay. Like, I mean, I can remember being a kid and, you know, my older sister having a guy friend who was white. And the kind of, you know, the ragging that she got for having a white guy friend.

friends that wasn't even her boyfriend at the time scarred me for life. Like I was like, oh, I can never date outside my race in my town because this is what my sister got. And it happens a lot and we don't even realize how much pressure it adds to kids to children going through and trying to figure their stuff out. But that's a you thing. That's a problem that you have. I don't have that problem.

I can date outside my race. I can appreciate people who date outside their race. I have, I don't have that issue. That just might be a you. his name. You know, when you look at black straight men who date outside of their race, a lot of times black women who have an issue with it is because you have these black men who are like, I'm never dating a black woman. Like, this is all that I want. And they feel like that's something that they deserve or they feel it's a prize. Or maybe when we touched about this on the podcast,

they feel like they've gone through trauma with black women. And so, which I don't believe that part. I mean, that's what they say. That's what they say. But, I am wondering, is there any correlation with that when it comes to black gay men dating white men? Because that's, do you get, oh, go ahead. No, I think there's definitely a correlation. A lot of my experiences with black men, the reason why they end is because, like, for instance, I have an ex who's 53 years old on paper, bomb. Successful, makes a killing, has homes and multiple places. It's super smart.

Went to Harvard. We have a great connection. But he's waiting until his mother passes until he can live his life fully. So you have a lot of gay men who you are, black gay men who are still kind of sort of in the closet are not fully out. And a lot of times as an out-out gay man as myself, as, you know, Gerard Carmichael, or as someone who is on TV who represents and says, I am a gay black man. you know, sometimes other black men don't really want to end up on that Insta.

They don't really want to end up in the public eye because they're still, you know, kind of sort of in that closet. A lot of gay black men are in the closet. Still. And not like fully in the closet. Like you'll meet a black gay man who's, you know, about it. And then you get to know him a little bit better.

And, oh, you know, I can't really put you on this because I can't really bring you to this because I'm not set out at work or I'm not, Everyone has that degree of something. So I think for, you know, people who are out in public, like, that's something that you have to keep in mind. I also, for myself, I like to date guys because everybody has baggage. I personally can't date someone with the same baggage as me, especially somebody who's not on the same level of collecting their baggage. because a lot of times you do all this work on yourself

and growing up in the South as a black gay man, first of all, you have to deal with the black thing. They don't have to deal with the gay thing. You know, meeting someone who has the same baggage and they're not on the same level of getting to accepting themselves, they can drag you back to step three when you're on step seven. Yeah. And not that I don't want to go to step three with you at all.

It's just a very, it's a very, it reignites a trauma that it took so long for you to, you know, get rid of to heal from. So I think when you talk about trauma and dating within your race, again, it's not a bad thing. Everybody has trauma. I personally like to date all races, and that's probably one of the reasons why it's a little bit, you know, a little bit tougher. So it's interesting because I want to ask two questions. One of them is about what you just said, which is a more general question because it's very moving to hear you talk

and express yourself about this and it makes you think about how somebody actually has to live their life. It's just very moving. But what you just said a second ago is essentially when I was on the podcast, I said in an artful way, a lot of the black men that I would meet out here that would be like, yo, because if I see you with three white girls in a row,

I go, oh man, what's up with you? I mean, I end up bad way. I just go, what's the deal? And then they'll go, well, you know what, bro? I come from Baltimore. I come from Richmond. I come from New Orleans. I come from whatever.

And like all the same stuff, all the same trauma and all of the same stuff that you go through. Like, these girls don't have this. these girls don't go through this, these girls don't deal with this. And then I would say that and I would be like, God, damn. And I said that on the podcast and it offended Rachel. And it offended a lot of other people that listened. But it seems as if for different reasons, you're almost saying the same thing. You know, I think it's a little bit different.

Okay. I think that, you know, when you look at when you understand gay trauma and you understand And, you know, systematic, you know, this is a systematic thing. Okay. A trauma is systematic. Everyone deals with the same trauma like clockwork, no matter where you're from. But I think when you are, you know, growing up in smaller neighborhoods or, you know, in areas that have, you know, very little exposure, it's a lot more condensed. I think a lot of times when I say gay trauma,

I'm talking about, you know, things that are every gay man. When you talk about sometimes, you know, the thing that you're talking about with straight men, sometimes it could be seen as an excuse. But again, who are we to tell people who they should, can, and should love? That's not our place. That's not who we are.

Because let me say something to you. if you saw a white man with three black women in a row and that white man's family said, hey, bro, what's you doing? I saw you with three black women. What's going on? You would be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, bro. You can't, like, your family can't say that.

So we have to be super careful with checking people about dating outside their race. Because if the tables were turned and we had heard white people say that our Asian people are, even like, you know, Brazilian people are even like, you know, Brazilian people saying, you can't date X, Y, and C because of the color of their skin, we would be pissed. Yeah. I think the table has a different weight, but I take your point.

I want to ask you about something. Just how much of your life is muted and strained because of how society perceives you? Like, thinking about somebody that is, it's like deeply, deeply, deeply. saddening sometimes when you sit in this. Thinking about somebody who wants to either wait until their mom passes away so they can experience love or

it's fucked up. I don't really know what I'm trying to ask you. Yeah. Let me tell you something. Girard Carmichael showing his mother praying the gay away for him and in front of him is something that a lot

of people deal with. And you know, people say, I can't believe he showed her like I can't believe he showed her like that. And I praise him for showing that because a lot of times, you know, we think that, oh, we live in California. Oh, we live in New York. Like, it's cool to be gay. No, it's popping for you guys.

You guys are killing it. You own talent agencies. Neil Patrick Harris is here. Don Lemon is doing the damn thing on CNN. But for people in those flyover states and in some parts of these big cities, that's not the case. They're still living like Jared Carmichael's living. And I will say this wholeheartedly.

When I go home to Louisiana, I have a hard time doing it. And I go less and less because I feel like I fully can't be myself in front of my family. And that's a, that's a thing I think a lot of people deal with. I think a lot of times you go home, you have to butcher it up. You go home. You have to like pretend like you're someone that you're not. And as a 37-year-old man, I used to go home four times a year because I felt like I had to. Now at 37, I'm like once a year and I'm good.

And that's a 36 hour hit because I have to stifle who I am. I can't shine as bright as I want to because I know there are people who are still not fully comfortable with that. And, you know, it's crazy. It's a wild thing to really think about that we're doing this in 2024. Justin, I love that you came along. this podcast and I love that you're being so vulnerable with us. I mean, we have these conversations every day. Or just we talk every day. But I love that our audience is getting to hear from you and they've asked for you and they've really just asked for representation, period, to come on this

podcast. And you're saying so many things that are resonating with us and I know that will with other people. What you have, you mentioned that you've done the work on yourself that, you know, you may have started off on this level and you're at this level now. For anybody listening, like what is it that they can do? They may be struggling. They may feel like they can't go home. I mean, hearing you say you can't go home and be yourself is just, it's devastating. What are some tools, tips, what helped you get to where you are now and that keep you going?

Because I'm sure it's a struggle every day. Oh, one, build a home for yourself. And when I say that, I mean build a safe place where you can be yourself. you can, you know, express yourself. And when I say home, I mean a group of friends, a work environment where you feel loved. Find people who see you for who you are and make that your home.

Because a lot of times you feel lost because you don't have somewhere to come back to. So that's the first thing. The second thing is when you're working on yourself, you have to get to that place of self-love, because for years from 14 to 23, I lived in Louisiana, and I always thought I wasn't worthy because that's what people told me, because let me tell you something, it's the white man, it's the white lady,

it's the black man, it's the black woman in Louisiana, and then all the way at the bottom is the gay black man we don't talk about because we are Catholic and, you know, we don't deal with that. We just don't deal with the gay black man. We all had uncles who were gay that, you know, we weren't told or talked about, you know, who they were. We just said, oh, that's Uncle Dave. And he didn't really talk to anyone. And he lived in a big city and he never came home.

And, you know, we really don't do that. But I think for yourself, building yourself back up and telling yourself that you're worthy and you're worthy of love is really important on a daily basis, on a daily, daily basis. And I think the third thing that you can do is, I heard someone say this a few years ago and it stuck with me. You have to meet people where they are. You have to meet people where they are. And, you know, I feel like in my life, I met people who didn't really understand what gay meant. They didn't know how to talk about it. They didn't know how to express it.

they didn't know how to talk to you about it. And I think a lot of times, people are afraid to talk about what they don't know. So a lot of times your parents will look at you and you will have like a purple boa on with high heels and they will act like they don't know what's up. Although they know that you're playing with Barbie dolls in the closet, they just don't talk about it. And once you realize, like, for myself, like my mom just didn't have the tools to deal with a gay son. And a lot of things went unspoken And a lot of things went unsaid

And I had to forgive her Where she was because of that And the minute you let that part go The minute you look at someone and you say Oh, you didn't ignore this because it was inconvenient You didn't ignore this because you were ashamed of me You ignored this because there was some shame within yourself That you had the gay son

That you didn't know how to talk about it So what I'm going to do is I'm going to let you have that and I'm going to figure out a way to talk to you where you are and not be upset about what I didn't get. Does that make sense? It does. Absolutely. Last question for me.

Last question for me. What do I have to do to be a part of the chicken niggas crew, bro? What is like what? Like what? He literally will text me this. Let me tell you out something. Let me tell you out something. Rachel could give a fuck about LSU football.

She could literally could give a shit about it. about it. Like, she really could give what, I literally grew up. Like, you could hear the stadium from where I grew up. I went to McKinley, hold on, from Baton Rouge. Justin is in

with the most powerful chicken family in the world currently. Like, he is the most, I'm not even going to go into everybody's business. The most power, and they got, they got more pool in Baton Rouge than anyone. And every time Rachel hit me,

Rachel would be like, yeah. And not just Rachel. A lot of other people. Joy Taylor, Joy Taylor went to Baton Rouge, was hanging out. I was like, yeah, I'm here with X-N-X and Blankety-Blank, and I went here. I'm like, hey, could you maybe introduce me to them or I met to do it at Jimmy's house because any way that I could get in with the chicken niggas? And Joy was like, yeah, I hit him up, told him you. I was like, you know what? Fuck it. I don't want to be with the chicken niggas. No more. And then I started, And then I started this tirade.

But really, it's out of jealousy, envy, and hurt, Justin. That's what it's really out of. I don't want to be that way anymore. And once you're in, you're in. And they're great. They are other people. You're rubbing it in. I'm rubbing it in.

I am rubbing it in. Are you going to let him in? You know what? I'm right. I might. I might because I personally have been listening to this podcast for a while. and the conversations you guys had around, you know, Gerard Carmichael and this, you know, specific topic is,

I have to say I was truly impressed with you, even the parts where you question yourself. And again, that's kind of sort of the most important, you know, because checking yourself in front of people is kind of the greatest thing that you could do. And I had this conversation with somebody during, you know, when it was gay rights and we were having the issues. And then women's rights came about.

And then black rights movement came about again. And I always told people whether they were black, where they were white, whether they were men or women, or what side they were on, keep checking yourself. As long as you're checking yourself and you're checking yourself in front of people, like, it doesn't matter. If you say, you know, I don't know what this George Floyd thing is about, but I'm trying to learn and I know I need to be better.

I will sit with you for 35 minutes. We will have a cocktail and I'm going to tell you exactly what's going on because I know where your heart is and I know where your mind is and I do the same thing with myself. When women's rights came, you know, into question, I had to check myself on a lot of things because I had been in my own world.

But again, checking yourself and checking yourself in front of people will often create conversations that you didn't even know you started. So you can come with the jiggas because you've been checking yourself on this podcast. I will get you in. I will get you in with the chickens.

I love it. I love it. I can't wait. I have that shit on Sunday. All right. Oh. Before we go, before we go, I have to ask you one question before I leave. Sure. Have you ever dated outside your race? Yeah. Wait, dated? I mean, or? Yeah, yeah. Oh, okay. So we didn't talk about, we never talked about that. How many times? I mean, like not, when we talking about dating, we're talking about dating. We're talking about. about a more casual type of thing, but, you know, more casual type of thing. Louisiana or California? Louisiana. And how guilty did you feel dating outside your race?

Once it became a thing, it was like, well, a couple of times in California, too. But once it became a thing, once, like I had somebody, because I was in a conversation with somebody one time and they went, hey, it's good to see that your horizons is broad. Because, like, you know, I know that you'd be talking a lot of the black shit that you'd be talking because I was hanging out with y'all, but I see you here and then I'll have to like check myself. But like everybody's been with somebody of a different race. That's not true. No? I mean, you know I had a guy on my season who had never been with anything but white. No, there's a lot of people who have never, there are a lot of people who have never

been outside their race because of the fear and pressure from the community. I taste it. I taste it vanilla. Well, I think I was about saying that's a black man. I'm supposed to say black man. I'm not a I've tasted the vanilla. I've tasted the vanilla. I've tasted the vanilla. I've tasted the custard. I've tasted all the different. I've, yeah, it's been a whole, I'm not unrepresented in any of the area. Like I'm good.

Every part of the glow. I got a cousin who's sleeping. I'm telling you, she literally, I'm calling her out in her 40s, you know, is sleeping on someone who I think is great for her and amazing for her, but, you know, she is still in this mindset at 47 that she can't date outside her race, even though this man that she has met and has been dealing with for years, has been patient with her and trying to figure out how to make this work because he sees what everyone else sees, but she has been conditioned for years and years and years to think that she can't date outside a race. And by the way, I'm not saying anything about men who think or women who

strictly date inside their race. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I'm here for it. I just think when it comes to you and life hands you something that doesn't look the way you thought it was going to be wrapped, you've got to give it a shot no matter what anyone else says.

I tried. All right, Justin. I'm going to later, Justice. You're going back to Black. Justin, we really appreciate you, brother. Yes, thank you so much. Catch you mind. The video and Hona and Jenna and everywhere else.

Bye, Justin. Bye. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with Internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business.

So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips.

Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on. doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Okay, guys, there is something happening right now in black culture that must be discussed.

It is something that had a lot of people on pins and needles because there is a time in our culture that is being revisited right now on Hulu. Nasty time of freak, Nick. The era of the freak, the era of the Nick.

The documentary is on Hulu right now. And one of the creators of this is a gentleman that I've known for years who I am so happy that he is getting his just due for all of the contributions that he has made inside of this culture. I'm talking about P. Frank Williams, who goes from the Source magazine. He produced stuff at what I was working at TMZ. He was producing the show there. I worked with him on hip-hop.

Homicides. I was with him every single day. He made me a better host. And now this thing that he's created, the Freed Nick documentary, is scaring the shit out of aunties, pastors, attorneys, everyone who doesn't want people to know where they were in 1996. Everyone's talking about it culturally. I want to talk about it with P. Frank. Thank you for joining us today. We want to talk about it on higher learning. P. Frank, how are you? my brother, thank you. I felt like a sports introduction there. Like, hey, it was a play-by-play.

But no, man, thank my brother. Congratulations. A proud of all the things that you do for the culture. Freakink exploded. This documentary had no idea that everybody was going to be so up in arms about it. But I think that people were thinking that the untier their uncle was going to be shamed. But I think everybody was 21 at 20 years old. At one point, your mom and her friends, how do you think that you got here?

You got here because she was at the church, praying? So, I mean, you know, Freakink is about Black Joy. It was a time, the time capsule, right? It was a time when you could imagine right now, Van, you could go out in Atlanta or even Louisiana, Baton Rouge, where you're from. 300,000 people were on the streets,

having a good time on the freeway and nobody was shooting at each other, and it was lit like that. And that cute girl you're trying to get a number from, the cute girl with the green pants and the little, you know, whatever number you wrote down, that was that time before cell phones

and all of the DMN and, you know, word them out. But that's exactly the point, Pete Frank, because I would think, I'm surprised that you didn't think people would be shocked by this coming out, particularly the people who might be recognized because you're right. Back then, there were no cell phones. It was just the big camp quarters and not everybody had them. There was no social media. So you felt more free to be free than you do now, say, knowing that it could last forever on the internet or be captured in someone's phone. So I guess for me, I wonder, was there, were y'all nervous at all about the pushback that you received? Because there was a time where people were, you know, threatening lawsuits or, you know, putting out letters, saying they were going to have letters, certain letters or whatever to you guys, a cease and desist. How did you guys handle that? Well, first of all, let me just say something as a point of education. If you walk outside right now and you're a little skimpy underwear and start running down the middle of the street,

anybody can put that on TV. When you're on the street publicly, anywhere in the whole world, this is from lawyers, it's not for me. There is no coverage. If you go back inside your house and then you do that,

then obviously I can't put it on TV. But it's all free game if you're running around. So I wasn't here to shame anybody if you watch the film. There's no like negative sort of things that people were doing, but people was having a good time. It girls can be dancing.

Guys would get it. I don't know. I think it's unfortunate that people thought it was a negative thing to be having fun, right? Once it's promiscuous or it gets offensive or people are sexually assaulting people, that's out of bound. But to have a good time, party in the street,

drinking with your friends, if you've been to Bayou Classic, anything like that, it's the same thing, but on 12. Right. Freak Nick, the wildest story never told us on Hulu right now. Everybody go check it out. Huge, huge first weekend. Why was the story important to tell?

Well, no, I think that we need these moments of Black Joy. You know, the show and I, you and I did, hip-hop homicides together. That was a little bit more on the darker side. You know, unfortunately, some of the things that happened in our culture, we need to document that as well. But this was about a black joy. Last year, with the 40th anniversary of Freaknick, you know, and by the way,

Freaknick didn't start as like a big tailgate. It was with some young kids and a college environment, if you've seen the film, who started out very innocent. It was unfortunately later on with some of your cousins and uncles and all of them who ain't never been to a college camp and started showing up because they were pretty girls. But, you know, I thought that it was important to showcase this moment in time.

And I know that the millennials like yourself or Gen Z, they're fascinated by what we did when the 90s. And so, you know, Rihanna, Drake, 21 Savage, everybody's like, why did you put 21 Savage, why he's the executive producer? You know, the internet, y'all just start going crazy. Two reasons. You know, 21 had multiple freak nickname parties, and I'm here to make money. I wanted to market to a younger generation, so I put one of their stars as executive producer.

That's it. And so, I mean, that's the reality of what it is. I know people were like, well, how was 21 on here? But it was, you know, all intentional. And so I'm happy. It's a celebration. This is a film about black joy and about black fun. There were some dark moments, but that's ultimately what it was.

Yeah, I didn't feel that way about 21 Savage until I watched the documentary. And there was this gatekeeping by people who went to Freednik, who experienced it, who lived through it. And then I was like, okay, well, then why is 21 Savage a part of this if you feel a certain way about people? people who weren't in Atlanta at the time, weren't born when it happened. So can you talk a little bit about bringing in 21 Savage, I guess, compared to those, to what people were saying because Black Twitter really was going off about that. I mean, you know, as Van knows, I work in a business that's about, you know, making sure that people watch.

And so this is a multi-generational story. So I wanted to get my kids who are twins, 19 years old. They know 21. They may not know Luke as much. And, you know, 21 again, like I said, did have multiple freakneck thing parties. and to be transparent, I started the film off with 21 intentionally to bring in a new audience to say, hey, look at this, what happened.

Let me show you what it was. And so it was on purpose, to be honest. And I can deal with the hate that people like, well, why is that? But when you tell a story, there's multiple layers of it, right? People who are in it, people who admire it, all of those different kind of things. So 21 represented a generation looking back

at what we did in the 90s. That actually is good for the documentary. I'll tell you why. Shout out to Prentice Penny Culture House media and onyx Hulu. I was a part of the Black Twitter documentary. I was in the documentary and then I hosted it, excuse me, the Q&A after we premiered at South by Southwest. And immediately when it came out, Black Twitter ignited.

Why are these people in it? Why is this person doing it? Why this? Why that? You want that. You got to have that. It's the way that we litigate things by going back and forth. 24th, 21 Savage and all of that is actually good for it. So that was actually a smart move.

Was there any trepidation because I watched it and I was thoroughly, thoroughly entertained? Number one, it is extremely informational. Like, extremely informational. I come at the end of this. So I get to college in 98. And so Capa Beach Party is more my thing. We're going to Galveston. We're doing all of this.

These offshoots of it. Daytona was one, all of this kind of stuff like this. But to figure out how Freaknik began, why Freaknik became such a big thing, how Freak Nick changed, and the one rapper that did more to change Freak Nick than anybody else, it was hysterical. There was a lot there to actually learn about this thing that exists in this very specific cultural space in Black America. there's also some seriousness in the documentary about how things went on then and looking at them through the lens of today. Was there any trepidation on your part about looking at Freaknick,

1995, 1994, 1996 through a 2,024 lens that people might either misconstrue or have negative feelings about what went on then? well you know obviously we're friends and you know the truth is the truth right that the only way through is through meaning there was a lot to unpack with freaknik that wasn't about jumping on a suzuki samurai or having a turn-up you know it was about the politics that the city of alina didn't really know what to do with all these young black people the Olympics were coming the rise of our caste black sexuality the rise of Atlanta as the black cultural capital of america so i'm saying i i gave you the candy and the vegetables, meaning you wanted the candy, which was to turn up to see if your auntie and everybody was

there. But there are a lot of vegetables that you need because that's what you really need is not the candy, but the vegetables. So I wanted to uppack the good and the bad, you know, and I think that sometimes in our community, Van, you know, you know, we don't want to look at the negative stuff. It's like, you know, we don't want to go inside the house and say, hey, some of these brothers are out of control. Someone was inappropriate. Some of them was raping girls. Some of them was loo. But there was also beautiful black times where people met their partner, people and their friends they packed up in a Toyota Camry with $200 and they slept on the in the U-Haul to go enjoy themselves. So that's what I wanted to do. I couldn't, I really wasn't so much concerned about

today's world. I wanted to show you what happened in those 15, 20 years of Freaknik. So you got the whole gamut. And so, you know, I appreciate you saying it was informative because, you know, I felt like I had to make sure that you got all of it in the real way. And, you know, I do entertainment as well as you do. So I educate and I entertain. And so the point of the Freaknik documentary was just that to educate you and entertain you. Yeah, I thought I had no idea how much the 96 Olympics impacted how they treated Freaknik. I had no idea that Outcast got their breakthrough, you know, by pushing their music through Freaknik. That was really interesting. And Black Twitter, speaking of that and how they litigate

things, a lot of people thought it was going to be a freakier documentary than it was. I'm wondering was there more, maybe in the beginning or the developmental stages that you were going to put more of that footage in there and then with the response of people knowing that this was going to come out, then maybe you felt like you had to water it down or dial it back or was the intention always to be exactly what we got? Well, no, I mean, obviously everybody was looking for something

a little bit more lewd, but I mean, you got to peep game. You know, this is Disney and Hulu. I got Mickey, the mouse, you know. There's, you know, it's a P-P game, you know, it's just not on HBO or something that's a little bit more raw. But no, I think I just, I wanted something tasteful and classy at the same time. You know, I gave you enough ratchiness, but I had to also give you some entertainment, but also give you some education. So I did not mean to water it down and do nothing like that.

I wanted to tell the real story. Everybody's asking me for the director's cut. There are a lot of footage that I did not put in there, which involved sex in public, sex. in the back of U-Hauls, people, girls nude, strippers, all the kind of things that I know you and your friends was really looking for me to put on there, but I didn't have a mature rating to deal with. So I want to make sure we're clear that I was being intentional

that I couldn't go too far again. Like I said, I did work for Disney on this project. P. Frank. Don't, Van. Just real quick. Van. Just real quick. P. Frank, you know, I've been out to the office before

and you know I don't like to work for free, But what I'll do is I'll come by the office and then you and I can go through that footage. And then we can decide if there is going to be a director's cut or something like that. I'll help you. I don't even want to credit. Okay. And I don't need to get paid. We're friends.

I've known each other. We're like a brother. I'll help you with that part of it, P. friend. Right. I thank you for your charity, man. If that's admirable. I'll come out there.

I'll come out there. We'll go through it together. Together we can do this. All right. Yeah, I mean, whatever it takes to get it there, my brother. Exactly. Question. Okay. When you look at the stories that are being told now, P-F, not P-Fragick,

Freak, Black Twitter, things like that. These are cultural phenomena that exist inside of Black America. Like, these are sort of our inside jokes, things that we're talking about. There's pushback from people sometimes about talking about talking about those. inside jokes on a Hulu or on a different place with telling those stories. I personally believe that there are stories to tell, so as long as we're telling them, it's okay. Do you hear the criticism that maybe we don't want America to know about Freak Nick? Do you hear the criticism that maybe we don't want America to know about Black Twitter?

We don't want to teach them how to play Spades. We don't want to do all of that stuff. Do you hear that and do you think there's any merit to it? Well, no, I mean, anything black is cool, right? And so, I mean, I think you got to realize that whatever we do is black. And again, this frequently documentary became really popular and unblast and done really well. But that means that white people are watching, right? That means that it's not just as like hip hop. The only reason hip hop got so big was because white kids started watching it.

And so I think it's my job, your job, you know, your folks at higher learning to take the mores, the cultural parts of black society, and bring them out to the world. Why are we afraid to tell our truth? It's a trip how we still have this sort of, I don't want to tell the white man too much. Or we're afraid like, oh, my God, they know we was having a good time over playing some spades and on the internet. So I think that that's a horrible thing to think.

I think our stories are the best stories out there. That's why they emulate us and want to be us because of our music, because of our culture, because of our sports, because of Freakening. I can't even tell you, I was walking at an airport. I was doing a press thing and had the Freak Nick poster, right? And do you know how many white people came up to me? Oh my God, I was watching that and

that was the freak Nick, freaking freak. You know, I was like, well, damn, that's his goal to show you that that permeated something that wasn't just us. And I think that's okay if people like myself or you are the people telling those stories because we're not watering it down. We're telling it from inside the culture to back out. It becomes a problem, in my opinion, when the people who are co-opting us tell it from the outside end. But that's my goal, is to always tell our stories and I'm not going to sugar-coded or whatever else. And there's 50 million of their stories. Why can't we tell like 10 or 12 bars?

Yeah. I want to go back to that gatekeeping question because we were talking about 21 Savage and how you wanted to bring in this new generation to see what Freak Nick was all about, people who didn't get to experience it. But at the end of that documentary, I was a little surprised to hear people like,

like it ends with Kenny Burns being like, don't do it. Don't ever do it again. Don't copy it. Don't repeat it. And it did bring a lot of joy. And it did bring... Shout out Kenny Burns.

And it did bring a lot of people together. And I thought it was cool that somebody tried to bring it back, which was also featured in the documentary. What were your thoughts about hearing some of the legends and people who were involved with Freaknik saying, we don't want you to do it again? Well, no, I mean, obviously I put that up for a debate. You know, my job as the producer and the director of this documentary

or even with Vance show, hip-hop homicides that I did, you know, I just turned a lens on things. I take a picture of it in like a Polaroid. You know, you shake the Polaroid and I let you look at it. Then that's your job to judge whether it's good or bad or whatever else. And so with the Freaknick, I'm not sure that you can bring back that version of it where two or 300,000 kids are safe. Nobody's shooting each other. You step on toes.

The police harassing, but it ain't nothing crazy, beating, shooting, killing people. So I'm saying, that was a time capsule. And I think the debate of whether you could bring it back or not, it's sort of futile. You can't go back to the past, right? It's like, it's like Nas in his first album. You can't do Iomatic again. He could do another album, but he can't do that. So for me, it was important to show that there's a lot of debate.

And Carlos Neal, who's the guy who brought it back, he bought that back in a concert environment, right? In a safe place, a building with no, you know, security, everything. 21th birthday, which I shot and put in the film, that was at five points, that little underground mall there and control, security. Amazon sponsored it. It was only that street area at the underground.

And so I'm saying you can't bring back something because the times have changed too much, right? Our respect for each other's black people has changed. The amount of guns, the sort of rapiness has probably gotten worse. And so that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to show that Freaknik was a time capsule. And that was important for me to show that, you know?

All right. We're going to let you get out of here, Pete Frank. But before you do, I have something that we can bring back. Okay, what's that? It's not freak Nick. It's woke Nick. This is my idea. Woke Nick.

Woke Nick. It's all vegan. It's all positive. It's all community sponsored. It's abolition. You have to have dreads, natural hair, and a septum ring to perform. No. So we're none of that shit.

Woke Nick is the future. I want to do Woknik in an area all recyclable. I want to get everybody together. Woke Nick. Woke Nick, Woke Nick, Woke Nick. Be frank, will you do it with me? What? Nobody's going to watch that, man.

I don't have it. No. They're coming to Wokelyneck. No. Aleos and Ashley. Do you want to go to Wokely? Rachel, will you go? I won't be there.

Nobody's coming to Woh. Van Lathan presents Woke Nick. that's what I'm doing. That is, it's woke Nick. The wokeest party ever told. No? No. That's going to be as the words of time.

It's a no for me. Yeah, you know what? That's fine. You know what? You don't want to do my, I'm going to do it. It's going to be me and Bozeman. Pete Frank,

I'm happy that this happened for you, brother. I'm happy that your vision got out there. So happy to know that you were a part of this. Always excited for your success. Thank you for joining us on Higher Learning. It's on Hulu right now. Freak Nick. The Wildest Story never told.

The Wildest Party never told. The Wildest Party never told. Keep saying a story. The Wildest Party never told. Go out there, stream it right now. You will not regard it. It is a lot of fun and very, very, very infotainment. So check it out.

Thank you, people. I love you making it for words. Appreciate Black people making up words. But I appreciate you, Van. Shout out to Higher Learning. Thank you, Rachel. Make sure you watch. I appreciate y'all.

All right, brother. Peace, man. Thank you. Peace. Before we go, and we got to get out of here, before we go, I want to say one thing real quick. If you guys don't know, Draking Kendrick Lamar into it. Kendrake Lomar is,

and shot at Drake on the new future in a Metro Boomin album, the future, the future came out, and he shot at him, right? So it was interesting to me. Drake came out after this, and I guess he gave a motivational speech at a concert. Somebody called it a Martin Luther King. Could be. I've heard that Drake gives speeches like this at concerts all the time. All right.

I have a little story by my dad. I'm going to be quick with it. Sorry about my dad. So I get put in a gifted program. We come to California. And I'm not making friends. You know? I'm big.

I'm from Louisiana. I'm loud. I'm bocious, whatever. I get at people. I'm not making friends. So come on with my dad and I go You know what? Dad

It's like I'm not I'm not really making friends He's like how's it going with that? I'm like I'm not really making friends It's like not from here It's different whole different culture Different vibe You know

People do different stuff You know I'm not really making friends He goes Was anybody putting their hands on you? And I'm like no He was like they're just making fun of you right And I'm like, yeah. He's like, all right, well, if nobody's putting your hands on, putting their hands on you,

that's good because that means you have a choice. Nobody's putting your hands on you. If somebody's putting your hands on you, they're putting their hands on you, you ain't got no choice. Somebody's putting their hands on you, son. You ain't got no choice. Only one thing you can do. But since nobody's putting their hands on you, if it's just words, you got a choice.

So your choice is this. Either ignore it or fuck somebody up. He's like, ain't no half-stepping. All right, you start half-stepping now. You're going to half-step for your entire fucking life. Ain't no half-stepping. No half-stepping. He was like, you got full legs, you use them.

You got a full dick, you use it. You don't give somebody half your legs. You don't give somebody half your dick. Give them the whole dick and you don't walk, you run. Ain't no half-stepping. So however you're going to deal with this, fucking deal with it. don't be half mad, don't be half eye, either ignore it or fuck somebody up. The way Drake used to go about shit and how he used to do it, none of that.

Two choices. Either ignore it and don't say nothing or fuck Kendrick up. All this other shit, Drake didn't done too much, he didn't been around too much, He didn't sold too many records. He got too much adulation. He got too much clout. And frankly, Drake is too fucking nice. Too nice on the mic.

Too nice with the words. Too nice with it all. To have as this. Either ignore it or fuck Kendrick up. That's what you want. That's what has to happen. Ignore. or destruction?

Well, we'll be waiting. He's going to ignore it. We'll see. I don't think you will. Okay. Take the key caps off, but do not stop learning. I'm Van Lathie Jr.

I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye, thanks.