Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Daniel Kaluuya and Lakeith Stanfield on the Importance of 'Judas and the Black Messiah'

Episode Date: February 10, 2021

For another Black History Month bonus episode, Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay are joined by Daniel Kaluuya and Lakeith Stanfield to discuss Fred Hampton, William O'Neal, the importance of their new movie ‘Judas and the Black Messiah,' and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to higher learning, you guys. Welcome Thought Warriors. As promised, we got a special episode for you. Remember, we're giving them to you every Wednesday for Black History Month. And this week is just, it's even better than last week. This week, we are doing a theme podcast for Judas and the Black Messiah. We've got Lakeith Stanfield on the podcast. We've got Daniel Kalulia. You guys, these are some of the best interviews that we have done on higher learning. I promise you will be enriched. You will learn something just from. them as human beings, as for their characters that they played, the roles, the real-life roles that they played in Judas and the Black Messiah. And this is a movie, if you haven't seen it already, you need to go out and see. Please enjoy this as much as we did. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies. Sweet Green's new wraps have got you. Real ingredients? Zero shortcuts. Everything you love. in one hand. Think green goddess chicken, garlic aoli, crumbled bacon, corn salsa, 40 grams of protein,

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We are blessed and honor to be joined by one of the best damn actors in the entire world. And I know he believes that to be true. The star of Judas and the Black Messiah. he plays the incomparable Fred Hampton in this movie. Mr. Daniel Kalulia joins us today on Higher Learning, Daniel. Thank you. Thanks for having you, guys. Of course, man.

Of course. Now, I started that intro by saying that you're one of the best damn actors in the world. Do you think that over these past couple of years, the kind of run you're on, that you're in your sort of creative renaissance or special, place, do you think that you've set yourself apart as one of the best actors working right now? Because I think, man, between

Get Out, between Queen and Slim, all of the other work, you have catapulted yourself to the top of the industry. Would you say the same thing? I love your background. Is that a Baster P? That's a Basta P. Yeah. That's incredible. I was just quoting Martin P just niching the last interview.

I don't compare myself to anyone. I don't watch anyone. I watch me, bro. Like, I saw, I get inspired by people. Sure. You know what I'm saying? Like, but it could be people that are doing stuff in the game now. It could be someone in from the 70s or the 60s, you know what I'm saying?

Like, I don't watch anyone. Like, I, I, I, I, there's no peace that comes with that. So, yeah. I'm going to become what I am, who I am. And that's it. If people say that about me and say that, me like blessings, man, I appreciate you, you know what I say? But I feel in the creative, in the creative field, I think it kind of is this kind of way of thinking

that can restrict you from telling the truth. I'm not here to be good. I'm here to be honest. You know what I'm saying? So I just act according to. Yeah. Can I ask you who is it that inspires you? Wow.

Interesting. What, in this current moment or in general? In general. You want to answer the question. All right, right. Go on give it. All right. So it's a, it's a, it inspires you.

My mom inspires me. I'm real, I could swear, right? Yes. Of course. Real shit. My mom inspired me, just seeing her determination, seeing what she's kind of gone through and what she's overcome

and the positive attitude that she's instilled within herself and within me. Donald Glob inspires me. I see how he moves. It's just like, I think it's incredible, like what he's been doing. And I get inspired by like, I don't know, I just feel, I can see when people get it,

when they understand. Like the Wiz Kids' last album inspired me. Like Maiden Lagos, that inspired me. Did you know what I'm saying? and just going, oh, he's, he's himself, he's found himself, he's always knows himself, but he's just in the pocket. I mean, there's so many, so many, I would ask, Rachel, I'd love to answer that question more deeper, more specifically, but I think I would have to need to be streamlined, the kind of,

the universe of people in order to, for inspirations. But there's, it's like people just, and I don't even necessarily think people, I think certain people in certain moments, you know what I'm saying, when they're just listening, and they just in sync, align, and they just get it, and they just, just move. Like, that, that inspires me. You know what I'm saying? And so, yeah.

Yeah. You know, it's crazy when you said Whiz Kid, I thought about how I felt this past summer listening to that Burner Boy album. I'm not going to lie, man. Like, the Burner Boy album, that inspired me. I was messing around with the beats, got me a little beat machine.

I was trying to, I wanted somebody to feel like I was feeling. Nah, it was fucking whack, but whatever. So, look, in this movie, you play Fred Hampton. Fred Hampton, who's story hasn't been told in American society yet. You, Daniel, are going to be the first time a large portion of the American film-going audience, a large portion of American culture is going to meet Fred Hampton. You're going to be the first time they meet him. What does that mean to you?

and did you feel that weight while you are preparing for and playing the character? It's an honor, man. It's not, I feel privileged. You know what I'm saying? It's just like how, sometimes you go, how, how,

how that hell do I get here? You know what I get into this position? Sometimes you can question it, and then you have to accept it. Because I'm here, and what are you going to do by it? You know what I'm saying? So, it's that. And then the second question is, like,

how did that feel, right? How did you deal with it? that and did it affect the way you would play the character in any way knowing that you had such a powerful legacy to bring to life for so many people? Yeah, it kind of refocused me. You know, it made me step up. You know, when I started looking at him specifically, I knew I was like, oh, wow, I'm going to have to be my biggest, tallest self in order to reach my aspirations of how to channel and be a vessel for him. You know what I'm saying? So, and it was a heavy. It was a heavy weight. But it just made me work non-stop.

stop. You know what I'm saying? And anything, I just would go, okay, every waking moment, it made me go to Chicago or go to Cleveland three, four weeks before the shoot and just lock myself away and do the work, you know, and take up smoking, you know what I'm saying? Or do go to opera singing classes and understand cadence in a really technical way and condition my vocal cords for the speeches that were going to be like I was going to be doing it for 12 hours a day, you know what I'm saying?

And it's like, it's a big, it's a muscle. It's a lot of work. And then I have to be, my vocal course, I have to be strong enough so I can still speak the next day. You know, it's like, it just made me, you know what it is? Understanding what that made me show up. That's it. I just got to show up and showed up.

Do you know what I'm saying? And I go, yo, I'm here. I'm here to be a vessel and that's it. I saw the quote where you said that you knew that, you just knew that you were a vessel. And you say you just let go and you let God. for you, you come across actors and you see certain performances and you say, gosh, they were born to play that role. You know, specifically I'm thinking of Ray Charles, Jamie Fox.

Do you feel like you were born to play this role? And if so, why? I think I was born to play this role. I can see myself being born in a way. But what's being, I think I've made certain choices in my life that meant that this makes sense. I don't think like I was born in a very different circumstance you're saying it's like it's kind of like it was a very different continent I was in a very different tax bracket just saying it was like I wasn't in a space

where that opportunity would have arrived to me you know what I'm saying so I had to do a lot of work in order to get in a space where I'm like oh wow I'm here you know but I do understand that the things that I've done in my career had, I did feel that on this job thinking, oh, my whole career has been leading up to this moment. It's how I felt. Yeah.

Now, you had talked a little bit before about feeling like maybe we talked a little bit too much about race. And you had said that you view yourself as a human as Daniel who happens to be black. I wonder if

is, and a lot of people like they took notice when you said that. I wonder if in any way, playing for it Hampton or immersing yourself into the Panthers or anything like that, changed that perception at all or in any way molded or shaped how you looked at the black experience in America, like to a degree.

Did it change anything? I think where it is, Van, you can turn anything into anything if you take out of context. Oh, okay. Word. And so the people where that went and I went out, The people that wrote that didn't sit down with me. They didn't meet me.

In that conversation, I was saying, I love, I actually said that. I love black people. Why are you asking someone that loves black people, why people don't like black people? That go viral, man. Did that go out of it? They did not.

Of course it didn't. So if I'm saying, the sentiment of that point, and to be honest, I'll look up to myself and I look, you know what is? It taught me the importance of articulation and the specificity of articulation.

And sometimes you learn that in the field. You know what time that you can be taught. And so, but then what the sentiment of that is blackness and racism are not synonyms. To me. Mm-hmm. You know what I'm saying? So when white people are sitting me down and asking me, yo, how can I figure out this racism stuff? Mm.

Why are you asking me? I'll tell you this story, yeah? I'll tell you this now. We've got a bit of time. I'll tell you this story. I'm going to say, they always cut it from every interview. And this was in the same interview.

This was the same interview. I tell her this story, yeah? All right, Rachel, yeah? Give me an old lady's name. Mabel. Mabel. Mabel's there chilling. 2.30 a.m.

Mabel's chilling, though. Boom. She hears the night. She hears the night. What the fuck's going on? Mabel wakes up. Yo, boom. See, is the window open,

puts a light on all that shit's been taken. She's like, what the fuck? My shit's been taken. Boom. She calls the police, yo, I've been robbed. I've been robbed. I lost my stuff. They said, I were coming away. The police come, all that.

These two police officers, one black, one white. They're like, yo, Mabel, what's happened? Mabel, what happened? Because I woke up 2 30 in the morning. My stuff got taken. Tell her stuff got taken. Cool. All right, cool, we're going to take you to the police station.

Okay, cool. I just want my stuff back. She goes there, she goes, she goes there and gets her stuff to go and the police station. She's in the lobby waiting. She goes, Mabel, there's been a lot of robberies tonight. We're going to put you to another space to wait. I'm going to speak to you. Cool.

Boom, boom, boom, bam. Chisina in the cellar, chilling, chilling, chilling. Two, three hours go by it. Boom. The thing to go, yo, Mabel, we're ready for you. They take Mabel into the interrogation room.

They put the recorder on and they go, Mabel, tell us why you got robbed. Mabel has a decision in that situation. She can come to two conclusions. I see it, Rachel, Mvann. She comes to two conclusions. She's even going,

you guys, you police officers, are very fucking shit at your job or you don't want to solve the crime. You feel me? Because you're never going to ask the person that's the victim of the crime, why the crime happened. You're going to go out there and figure out and find the person who

did it. And when you find a person who did it, you're not going to ask them why, because robbers rob. That's what they do. So I'm sitting there in this interview impacted by racism and they're asking me why it's happening. I came in this game in 89. I don't fucking know.

I don't fucking know why. I'm educating myself and understanding. I can articulate it. And when I articulate why, they're still asking me questions. They're still asking me questions. So I'm sitting there. I'm like,

so no, Mabel's going to be there, listen, you guys don't know what the fuck you're doing. I'm going to go out there, call my grandsons, and we're going to make it happen. I'm going to get my stuff back.

I'm here to get my stuff. I'm not here to, like, what's that? I'm here to get my shit. You feel what I'm trying to say? Yeah. I'm tired of talk. That's the conversations that are being had,

but they're not, they're not highlighting. their side of the conversation. They're putting you out there. And I'm sitting there, I'm like, yo, why are you asking me about this? You don't ask white people about this. You don't ask them. Why do you ask them? Why don't they check their granddad?

I don't know. Like, that's where it comes. Like, I don't know. I don't know. I'm just trying to get my stuff. I'm trying to help people and get their stuff and sharing the stuff that I've got. You know what I'm here for? You know what I'm saying?

So that's for me in that sort of situation, that's what happened. You know what I'm saying? It's kind of like, so I don't feel that this experience shifted in anything in me. It deepens stuff in me. Sure. It deepened because I felt like Chairman Fred and the Black Panther Party were very clear that the issue was rooted in white fear and white anxiety over black bodies. Do you know what I'm saying?

And that's where it sits. You know what are we going to do in order to empower ourselves to give people the tools to actualize themselves for themselves? from their selves. Do you know what I'm saying? So they can be their best selves. You feel me? That's how I see it. And I feel like it was taken out of context.

And then you have to, and then I learned that I just got to let it go, isn't it? You know, that cool, if people don't get it. Yeah. That called me, called me. And I figured it up, do you have the same? So, yeah, it's like that. I just have one more question for you, Dan.

Just one more question. And I want to get those on out. You were in Black Panther. and it was just a fantastic moment for the culture. Unfortunately, more than unfortunately, tragically, tragically, we lost our brother. We lost our brother, Chadwick Bozeman, the breadth and the strength and the bravery that he showed and playing that part and giving that art to us when he was going through so much otherworldly. Can't say enough about him. There's a debate right now about how the Black Panther franchise,

Chas moves forward, whether or not they recast the role as somebody else, or whether or not they, you know, change the mantle of Black Panther and make somebody else a Black Panther Shuri or even Kilmonger or someone like that. And it's, you know, people are divided based upon how they feel about Chad with Bozeman. Do you think that the story of Tachala should continue and that the role of Black Panther could and should be recast? or do you think that Tachala should probably be gone now that we can't have Chadwick back? I think they retired him in terms of the franchise. I saw that in the news and I heard that from people around me. And I respect that position.

And I think that's out of respect to what that man gave all of us. I mean, and what he stayed on life to. to allow us to experience, you know, and quietly suffering and continuously continuing to give through that suffering is a, it's a side of humanity that you just don't, you just don't, you don't see often. Do you know what I'm saying? So for me, like, it's important, the importance for me is, it's not the black pamphal legacy. The importance is the legacy of Chadwick Boseman because that's a human being and the spirit.

That's real. you feel me? And so how can we honor that? You know what? I'm saying? Black Panther is going to do what Black Panther does. You know what?

But that's a man that lived for us. It's a period of him. He did it for us. He did it for our nephews, our nieces, our kids. You know what I mean?

Absolutely. It's our duty to honor that man. You know what I'm saying? The way he honored us. First class interview, my brother. Yes. Thank you so much. I appreciate you, man.

Before you go, I want to tell everybody is here. voice right now. Judas and the Black Messiah is one of the best films that you will ever see in your life. And the guy we are talking to right now is a major reason why.

I'm glad you were here, glad you were able to do it, brother. Glad you had the time, bro. And congrats on the nominations, too. Congrats for them. How much for your time. Thanks for having me, ma'am. All right. Peace, bro. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also

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All right. This is a huge moment for us. I'll tell you why. Two reasons. Number one, we have one of the finest actors living on me. planet Earth right now, really any planet, joining this, but also from a movie that I've had the pleasure of seeing, the pleasure of being on the advisory board for the movie, and I don't have the adjectives. It is simply some of the finest work I've seen in ages, in ages. Name of the movie is Judas and the Black Messiah. The name of the actor,

is Lakeith Stanfield. He is absolutely brilliant in this movie. The film is an amazing portrayal of the life, and unfortunately, the death of Chairman Fred Hapton of the Illinois Black Panther Party. And we're lucky to have Lakeith with us today to get into, I guess, just the state of mind, how you've used the world, how you've used the film.

First of all, I'll just start off by telling you, fantastic otherworldly work that you did in this film, man. Like super duper amazing. Are you sick of hearing that just yet? Thank you. I appreciate it. No, I'm not sick of hearing it.

It's always welcome. You always want to do well at what you do. So it's welcome and appreciate it. I read that when you first got the script, you thought that you were going to be playing Fred Hampton and then you learned that you were going to be playing William O'Neill. I'm curious as to what did you know about William before you started filming this?

Yeah, I want to draw a distinction really quickly just so that people know. I wasn't told I'd play Fred Hampton, but I assumed that I would be playing. Just because there was no way in my mind that I would be playing someone that, betrayed the leader of the Black Panther Party. I was familiar with the Black Panther Party in Fred Hampton through my own independent research when I was young since school didn't really

talk about them very much. I think we glossed over 0.5 seconds of what they represented and were about. Oh, they gave away some food and then they went to the next thing. So I was excited at the prospect of being a part of the story that could help me. help play then and thought I might be playing Fred. But when Shaka revealed to me that he wanted me to play William O'Neill, at first I had a bad taste in my mouth. And when I hung up the phone and thought about it for a while, I realized it might be an opportunity to help tell the story in a unique way. And so I maybe need to put my judgments to the side. Something that you try to do as and actors, take yourself out of it to an extent

so that way you can view it from a holistic or, you know, sort of universal viewpoint. So you're not getting in your own way. So I tried to take the back seat and let the spirit of what my gut was telling me, guide me. And my gut told me you have to be a part of this project. So I got a broad question for you.

Because watching the movie, something kept jumping up in my mind, over and over and over again, watching you do the work that you did. The question that I just have for you is, are you okay? Because having watched the film and having seen the way you committed yourself to the role, and it's taxing to watch, right? It takes something from you in watching it, watching the way that's, has happened. And I'd have to imagine it was difficult to be in that mind space for such a long

time. Are you doing okay? Are things okay for you right now? Like are how was it going to that place and then coming back? I consider myself in search of contentment on a perpetual basis and trying to find some sort of balance and everything. You know, I think it's often overlooked what the implications on your mental, what some of the roles that we choose as actors have. And it seems like something that just seems like a funny

thing in my mind, at least it was, until I had actually done this role. It was challenging every day to have to deal with the conflict. And because we care so much about the story we were telling and we're close to the material, we wanted to make sure we did it right. So for me,

playing someone like William O'Neill, there was a delicate balance. I wanted to try and find the maniacal traitor in him. And I also wanted to try and find a young child who was attempting to just survive in him, which I think a lot of us are. In fact, I think more of us are William O'Neill-esque than Fred Hampton-esque.

I wanted to be fair and play him in a fair way, and it was quite challenging with my own morals and things that I felt. So there would be days on set where I was going through it, having existential crises and having a run out of this trailer and get a moment to myself and try to gather myself and be reassured and breathing that I was doing the right thing. So, yeah, you know, every day is a new step in trying to become centered, you know. And that is not even an accounting for all the things that happen in personal life. But I do realize, you know, coming out of this, how valuable. It might be for one to engage in some sort of therapy with someone.

And anyone that's going through something, I would definitely stress that that is a good option for you. Yeah, I feel like as viewers, when you're watching this, it humanizes O'Neill. And when you finish the film, you're left wondering, what would you do if you were in that situation? We do see him torn. We do, it is, it is, he's a very complex character. I'm curious after playing him, did you feel sympathetic towards him? No, I felt a lot of things. I felt anger, sadness, and just the tragedy of it all.

And I did feel a little bit bad for him because I think after all, sometimes you make decisions based in your own survival that you don't realize might snowball into affecting others. And I think when you get in too deep in that kind of thing, sometimes you might find yourself turning around with no other options, but to choose the lesser two evils, as people would say that the last election represented. And so I think he just got in too deep with this decision-making process

and had to then continue to play the role at that point. You had to continue to push forward whether you like it or not. We find ourselves in these positions all the time, whether we recognize it or not. It's just the little things that we allow to happen, that we allow to go on, and even within the government that we're supposed to hold responsible. When we don't, and we give them an inch, they take a mile and think snowball. Your intentions may not have been bad, but you ended up creating a mess.

And this mess happened to deal with people's lives. And so at the end of the day, he lost his tragically as well. I think he ran into traffic the day that Eyes on the Prize premiered. in 1999. To engage in self-harm in that way, to me, indicates that there were a lot deeper issues than what might have been on the surface. So, and after all, we have to care about each other, you know, at the end of the day, he's still a human, and I want to stress that idea. Now, although I do find his actions reprehensible, you know, as I said before, I try not to judge too much, because you never know who you might be or what you might do.

Yeah, so that's one thing about the movie and like, look, I saw the film. I went to a screening of the film. After I saw the film, I came out, I hit L'Rill, I hit the Lucas Brothers. I was going crazy. I was going crazy, you know, the best movie I've seen in some time. But it made me reexamined the way I look at everything, right? because William O'Neill was an unwitting, a winning and unwitting,

accomplished to the demise of not just even specifically black folk, of anyone who was looking for equity and equality in American society, right? Because that's what Fred Hampton represented. He represented sort of a radical new view of American life. and it got me to wondering to pick up on something you just said, like who or what institutions might be acting as William O'Neills right now without even knowing it, right?

Who's being used and played and activated right now without even being aware of it? Not even necessarily people, but maybe entities or organizations or anything like that. Did you have those thoughts? Do you think of at all about what entities right now that are out there, what organizations, what, like, where are the William O'Neills right now in American society? Did you think about that at all? Did it make you look at it differently?

Yeah. I mean, mainly in my research of the FBI and their tactics and intelligence agencies and how they went about gathering information and some of the gadgets they had, even in the 60s or far beyond when anyone would expect. the government to be capable of. So I can only imagine now the types of things that are in place. So yeah, I'm pretty sure that there are people and agents that are put in places to cause confusion, particularly in protest situations like what you might see with Black Lives Matter and called terrorist organizations. And I just think people need to think about that.

The next time they try and group people up, even the proud boys and people that you might find yourself and contention with. Think about, you know, ways in which the government might be able to infiltrate them and change perception. After all, intelligence is everything in those communities. And so controlling perception is important. So if I can get you to believe people for a certain way, which is really easy to do now in the space and place that we find ourselves sensitive to labels and grouping of people, just got to be careful and engage in critical thinking skills and be able to do your own research. But for sure, the government has not stopped. And it's It's not just the government, but there many different entities that put their, you know, they're full-fledged.

They're full-fledged with it. You know, it have been for years. So, yeah, we just got to open up our awareness and be able to hold people accountable that we allow to have jurisdiction over our lives. The movie is so timely and so relevant to what we're seeing right now happen in our country. For people watching this movie that are going to watch this movie, what do you want them to take away from this film? I hope people are able to, Daniel said something earlier that I really like about being able to engage in internal revolution and work on yourself from the inside out so you can change your perspective into a healthier version. Then we can link together and sing, you know, songs and move the world together. But we can only do that when we first engage in internal analyzation and revolution.

You got to be right inside, you know what I mean? So I hope this inspires somebody to look inside themselves and say, damn, I think, shit, somebody can love like that. You could love yourself so much you love your people like that. You'll die for it. I'm hoping there's one person that is awakened by that and begins to love themselves a little bit better. Speaking of Daniel, immediately when the film's trailer premiered,

there was going to be a narrative and a conversation that was started because Fred Hampton is an American hero, and Daniel is one of our brothers from across the pond. Do you think the criticism of Daniel or Kingsley Ben Adair or Cynthia Irvo or any Black Brits or people that are not from here playing Black American heroes and people who have a problem with that, do you think that criticism is fair? I wouldn't be careful to cast a blanket.

statement in terms of that my criticizing of that criticism. Okay. Because there are so many different versions of what people believe. People, you know, believe there's just a multitude of things that could be listed. But I do hear and seriously understand the concerns that black Americans might have with a British person playing and taking an American hero, taking on and interpreting an American hero in a role and why that might be an issue for them. That makes perfect sense to me. I have to say my personal opinion is artistry involves, especially when it comes to acting, interpretations.

And interpretations then are performed, and they either yield the value in the story or they don't. And that's not contingent upon necessarily the nationality of the person that's playing. I don't think because he's British, you shouldn't be able to play an American hero. I think because he's British, he should take proper care to respect the history and be able to include that in a performance and give a good performance, which I feel he did. So, yeah, I understand people's grievances

and understand why they might be upset. I'd say, you have to watch the movie and see this portrayal matches up or not with what you like. Because after all, what we're doing is a dramatization. I'm not William O'Neill. He's not Fred Hampton, and we're not these people that we're playing, we're actors that are interpreting. And if you come from somewhere else and you may be able to get the juice and love and life of what we're attempting to portray, then I think that's all that matters to me. How involved, I'm curious, how involved was Fred Hampton's family with the film? And if they were involved, did that add a level of difficulty for you

in being able to play this role in the film? They were involved heavily on Chairman Fred Hampton Jr. was on set every single day. So it was Mama Kuhn, who was known as Deppard Johnson at the time, on set every day. And it just made me feel like safer, because it made me feel like we were in the hands of people whose lives were directly and are directly affected

by the events that took place in the story we're trying to tell. And that they're not going to let us slip up. They ain't going to let nothing get by. So it just made me feel confident. I tried for the most part to keep my distance. I thought or performance it might be a better idea. But I was glad that they were there. So, you know, there are a couple of scenes in the movie that stand out to me.

You know, I'm not going to give the movie away, but there's the Kool-Aid scene, which is just the thermonuclear warhead of emotions. there's just a whole bunch of things that Williams' character goes through that stand out to me but I think particularly the scene that is going to really jar a lot of people

is the actual death of Fred Hampton in the movie which is particularly brutal it's it's particularly brutal and so much so that you know full disclosure in some of the advisory council meetings, I actually brought that up.

You know, that that's a, that one was a tough one to watch, you know, you're, you, you completely lost it. Totally lost it. There is a, there is some talk right now about how much trauma, black people, in particular, should be consuming and watching in their art

and things of that, of that nature. Where do you stand on that? A lot of the, the stories of, of, in black American history, aren't going to be particularly sunny. There are, of course, more stories we're going to tell that are sunny and beautiful and life-affirming. Do you have any thoughts on how much trauma

we're actually watching on the screen? No, I haven't really thought a lot about it. I'd say gauge, you know, try to gauge as best you can, how mentally you're prepared to take on certain stories. I mean, do you, you know, I'd say do your diligence and maybe research

an historical event like this. And, you know, I mean, I think the history of it was very violent. And just like we, actually, in my opinion, worse than what we're showing here. And the drama since they, you know, the real thing was,

you know, imagine being in that room and the trauma that it might draw up. But people may be sensitive to this kind of thing. And so I think it's important to maybe, you know, check up the history of these kinds of things. See if you're into Washington. because I don't think that everyone should be watching a bunch of violence

and seeing things that are harmful to them if those things are harmful to your mental state. That's the most important thing. So you do got to take care of yourself. I will say, though, that, you know, violence and stories is something that is just a part of how we express life. And it is a real, raw part of life. And it's not to be gratuitous.

It's just to show that these things happen. And we want to show them in the most realistic light we can, like the sopranos, like many things. you see, violence was a part of the story, and so it can't be completely left out, although this promise was fictional. It's just an example of the mobster life is very violent, and so is war. But these are also, you know, important parts of life. So I don't think that we should be censoring them, and I don't think that we shouldn't discuss them, but I do think that there should be taking care and making sure that maybe your children are not watching these kinds of things and that people that might be

susceptible to PTSD or extreme violence should be careful to, you know, watch what they watch. And if you see something on TV that you don't like on screen or on your laptop and you start to see it, cover your eyes. Look away. There's always that too in order to protect yourself. So you're not, you know, you don't have to sit there glued to the TV. I'd say just be careful with yourself because it's a real thing. Violence can affect people and you're seeing those images on a consistent basis. there's a at the end of the movie you know without not giving anything away but we do see william o'neill talking in the eyes eyes on the prize too i believe is what the documentary is

and he's asked a question and i'm paraphrasing here but his response is more of he's speaking in regards to how he's going to be remembered and he says well i hope history uh will speak speak for me or speaks for itself and i'm paraphrasing that i i i don't just found that so interesting because, one, I knew of Fred Hampton. I did not know of William O'Neill. And you play him in this film. What do you think history is saying about William O'Neill? I think now it's saying that if we don't change, all you're going to see is William O'Neill's out there. If we don't make a conscious choice to choose what we want to do and how we want to live and how we want to stand up, and everywhere you look,

you're just going to see it way more than. You know what? I'm glad you said that because you've been increasingly vocal, increasingly visible, and like increasingly just active in terms of sharing your views of society, talking about, you know,

ills in society, talking about things that you think that are wrong. in terms of the way it affects black folk. And just the world at large, if there was one thing that you felt like black people could do for one another, forget about any of the outside sort of things that we're looking at. Forget about any plots by the FBI or somebody that said,

if there was one thing you felt like we could do for one another. Because in the past, you've been critical of certain media outlets, black media outlets that you felt like maybe weren't serving the black community as much as they should. Is there more to that? Is there more in any ways that you think we should be, or there are different ways you think that we should be treating one another that we're maybe not getting to? Because when I see the William O'Neill Fred Hampton thing,

the first thing that jumps out of my mind is, you know, they ask William O'Neill, they go, were you upset where Dr. King dies? And he goes a little. Something tells me that had that been, hell yeah, it's a lot, that perhaps they wouldn't have tried to target him to get him to do what it is that he did. So just that dynamic within our own culture,

like what do you think? Yeah. I guess it comes down again to independent self-exploration, man, right? Comes down to us having a search and find and unveil the truths in ourself. I mean, it really takes just being silent with yourself and, you know, allowing for that space. We're distracted by so many things, you know, so much in the culture is us attempting to communicate ourselves and ourselves and our stories through saying, look, you know, this is me and wanting to be heard. But I think if we sit back and able to listen a little bit, we can remember that we're human.

And we're not this idea that people have created these labels, the things, we ain't niggas and, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, and all these things. and black man and black woman and strong and blah blah blah blah all this bullshit we're humans and if we can sit in that and begin to you know dilute all the labels from ourselves for a second then we can see each other as human and then we treat each other better as a result you know and you start to value life and when you value life you treat life like it's valuable and you treat the people that you meet in life like they're valuable. So I think it's all about perspective, you know, helping us change each other.

And by the way, we need the only ones that need to do this. This is humanity at large, but you said stay with us. So that's what I'll do. We need to do internal searching, conflict, struggle, and resolution, and then we can perhaps come together. And, you know, that's the only way I know.

We can't appeal to, you know, outside entities and sources to come help guide us in that way. we got to really see the truth in it. And that's why I'm hoping when this movie hit Chicago, that all the youth in Chicago that watched this movie can see, you know, to see that love that Fred was given, you know. What you take from and you take from it, but I'm glad that you can see now that this is where you start.

You know what I mean? This is what we was on for real, you know? And we can be back on and we'll be. Right. All right. So we got one last question. I got to ask you about this. So you were trending on,

Twitter not too long ago. Did you see why, do you know why you were trending, Lekeith? I was trending so many times. I forgot. I'm so popping. I'm so popping. You were trending because, you know, you're very active on clubhouse and some people, you were in the moan room on clubhouse. What was the moan room experience like for you? And did you think that it would be as big of a deal that you were in the moan room as it ended up being? You actually made the moan room pop. For a second there. You know, my experience with social media has always been interesting

because I never know that things will blow up in the way they will because most of the times things seem so trivial to me. Right. But I signed up on the app and it was a really interesting, fun, cool app, it sticks you right away because you're able to communicate in a new way. And so there were top rooms at the top of the queue, and as you go down, the wings get lower.

in the first room, one of the first rooms I saw was the moan room. So I go into the moan room and I get to see, I realize that this is a bunch of guys who are moaning in the room. That was exactly my ratch. This is the funny thing I've ever seen. It's great. I got to get in on this. So what I do is I go on Google and I type in mail moan

and on YouTube a video pops up that has a guy, moaning. And so I listen to the mall. I was like, now that one doesn't sound right. So I go to another one, I'm like, nah, and I say, good enough either. I go to another one. I'm like, oh, maybe I can trick him with this one. So then I go into the room and I try to sound as soft as I can, like the moan guy

in the video sound. So that way, when I play the moan, it sounds seamless. So I went in there and I'm playing this. As you know, I'm playing a character. I'm essentially doing what I do, which is. Right. So I go in there, and I'm like, are you guys ready for a $300

dollar cash prize, by the way, which I actually won, but I don't understand, but I go in there, I didn't know, I set the tone and I play them all. And to me, it was hilarious. I leave out of the room. I was like, that was, and then all of a sudden, someone screen grabbed it, put it on Twitter, and now I'm trending. I was like, wow, this is crazy.

But it's a fun time. Lekeith, I don't think that there's there's something that Senator Palpatine says to Anacke's Skywalker at the end of Phantom Minus. This is how nerdy I am.

He goes, I shall watch your career with great interest. And the reason why he said that to Anakin, because he knew Anakin was a powerful Jedi and he wanted to take over the universe with him. But that is not why I'm saying this.

We are all going to watch your career with great interest because something tells me that even though sorry to bother you was amazing, even though Atlanta is amazing, even though this movie and this performance was amazing. Something tells me that the most amazing art you have to give

is still in your future. And I can't wait to be here to watch it, bro. It was a pleasure to have you on the podcast, man. Just a fantastic job. You, Dominique Fishback, Daniel, just everyone that was involved in this movie. Just kudos. Jesse Plymouth, everybody.

Shaka, the Lucas Brothers. What a fantastic movie. I hope you guys get every single rose that is coming to you guys. Well, thank you so much, man. You know, this is my favorite interview. I think I've done, and there's two reasons why. I mean, I really love the heart, and I can tell you're a genuine guy and you're a genuine woman as well.

And thank you so much for just talking across to me and not up or down and saying just beautiful things and asking questions in a unique way. These things can get really tiresome. and also you bought up the mall room and that's the most I wanted to hear it I wanted to hear what it's down but I wasn't going to go there

I was like I'm just going to let it's like No he went there He had to go there No I just wanted to you know Because people were like Because really people were talking about The mole room and I'm on clubhouse all time Me and you've been in some of the same rooms

Lekeith So I'm on clubhouse all the time And people were And I'm to be honest with you It was sisters that was like Hold on real quick I got to log off Twitter, jump on Clubhouse. Lekeith Stantfield is over in the moan room.

Like, he got the moan room popping. But no, we appreciate you. We love you, man. Yes, thank you going. Keep going. All right. Thank you all very much. Appreciate it.

Take care.