Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Dave Chappelle’s ‘8:46’ Special and The Bachelor’s Black Lead

Episode Date: June 16, 2020

 Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay discuss ‘The Bachelor’ finally naming a black, male lead and what the next steps need to be for the franchise (4:23). Then they explain why they liked Dave Chappelle’s ‘8:46’ special so much and address some of the criticisms against it (21:16). They also address the Rayshard Brooks incident in Atlanta and how it relates to the Higher Learning Buzzword of the Week (35:40). Finally, they touch on the recent NBA drama with players such as Kyrie Irving and Dwight Howard advocating for not playing the end of the season (1:01:04) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Oh, wow. We're getting in. Whoa. We'll talk. We'll talk about it. I'm just like really. No, we're starting now. Well, first of all, thought wars, before I even start the show, I have to address what's happening right here.

If you're not watching it visually, Big Rache is drinking wine out of a big wine glass with a dog on it. What is that, man? Okay, it's not just any dog. I don't like your tone right now. This is my dog, Copper, and someone made this for me. So it's my favorite wine glass. But is this not good artwork? Let's just be honest.

I think the artwork is commendable. I think it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a little bit. A little bit creepy. It's not like I have my dog stuffed in the corner or something like that. Can you, can you explain the, like, I like dogs and I really enjoy them? I think they're cute and they're loyal. But the dog related to. obsession. Like, why would you want to drink out of a wine glass with your dog's face on it?

Okay. Obsession's a strong word. Okay. We're tone it down just a little bit. Now, someone made this for me, so I'm more than happy to use it. I think it's beautiful artwork. It captures the essence of my beautiful dog. And, you know, I like to drink out of it. What kind of dog, what kind of dog is he? He's a rescue dog. We did a DNA test. He's half-porn. Pomeranian and the other half is German Shepherd and Chow. Right. So you had to do a 23 and me on the dog to figure out where the dog actually comes. I get it.

I get it. Thought warriors. Welcome to higher learning. I am Van Lathen. I'm Rachel Lindsay. Yes, Rachel Lindsay drinking out. First of all, before we move off that completely, what time is it there? It's after 5 o'clock.

Once again, trying to call me out. It's 6 o'clock here. But I've been really anxious today, and I don't know why. So I just, I have a glass of wine to calm my nerves. I was talking to some of our team before, and I was saying my husband's really into natural and organic products. And he had this beet juice that he wanted me to try. And I haven't been right since, since this morning. Why haven't you been right?

I don't know. It didn't settle well with me. I don't know. I'm not into beats, I guess. You know what you have to do when you're drinking the bead juice? It's an important tip I'm giving you. you for bead juice. Okay.

What you have to do when you're drinking the bead juice is you have to remember that you drank it. I'll tell you why. Like, I'm on the bead juice. It's funny that you mentioned this. Like, I'm on the bead juice. I'm literally reaching over right now. Oh, yeah.

I drink like this right here. I drink these all the time. There's a little beat it, a little beet juice job. But here's the thing. What will happen is you'll drink this, right? And then you'll forget that you drank beet juice and that you have the beat juice in your system. And then like hours later, you'll go to the bathroom.

And then when you go to the bathroom, all of the sudden, you're thinking, oh, my God, this is it. Like, you're thinking, you know, the part in the movie where... This did not happen to me, by the way. The part is like the biopic. And then all of a sudden, you know, you know, it's so weird watching biopics when you know what the person passed away from because you know eventually you got to get to that point

where they get up and it's hair. and missing or something like that. And you start thinking, yo, am I to that point in the movie? Because you forget, because the beet juice makes your pee red. It looks like you're pissing blood. That did not happen to me.

When did you drink the bee juice, though? Like 11 this morning. Oh, he's coming. Are you serious? Well, I'm glad you gave me warning, so I just didn't freak out and think that, yes, this is over, this is it.

Right. You know what I think it is too? When you were little, did your mom make you drink prune juice? Mm-hmm. and used to hold your nose and you had to take it back. I think it's bringing back those horrible memories of having to drink prune juice. This is why it's like unsettling for me.

You know what is very settling for me, the fact that I have proven myself to be much more valuable to the Bachelor of Franchise than you ever were. Listen, you were a trailblazer, you know, you took the franchise. forward in so many ways. But I would just like to point out that it wasn't until I started to gain knowledge about the bachelor and started to advocate, be a pro-batchelor human being on this particular podcast that real change was made. Like, because since, because of me, because of my newfound interest in the bachelor,

the bachelor decided, hey, black guys are tuning in now and we have to get a black bachelor. I'm taking full credit for that. The guy's Matt James, right? I'm shocked, you know his name. You really are in this thing. So I fully expect for you to be engaged and watching his season when it airs.

I was wondering where you were going with this. I was wondering how you were going to bring this back to you and give yourself credit for the fact that we now have a black bachelor. Forget me. Forget me speaking out saying we need diversity and I was going to leave the franchise. Kalina Kaepernick, as you so rightfully named me, So they'll leave the franchise if they don't make some changes.

You got it. It's all on you. Well, I'm just saying, and I hate to be that same old man that takes credit whenever a woman actually gets something done. But that's the guy I'm going to be right now. It seems as if they listened to me. And I would just like to say on behalf of, you know, advocates for Black Bachelor Nation everywhere, which I obviously am one, I just like to say you guys, you guys are welcome. You guys, I did what I had to do.

In all seriousness, though, what does this mean to you? Where were you when you heard about it? How tickled are you that this has finally happening? So I'm going to sound like the most negative person in the world right now. Wow. I knew a couple of days before the announcement. Okay, I got a courtesy call. Here's my thing.

I've been preaching change in the franchise. the need for diversity. What I didn't want is a knee-jerk reaction to the whole situation. What I didn't want them is to announce a black bachelor out of pressure, right? It's been 18 years. This is the 25th season of The Bachelor. Now we get a Bachelor when the most gruesome thing happens on such a national stage and everybody's responding in their own way, right? They're removing flags. They're canceling shows. They're all putting out a statement doing something to show that they are down with the cause. And how does the Bachelor franchise respond? Here's a Black Bachelor. If you're in this franchise and you're like me, you know there's so much more needs to change other than saying, here's your Black Bachelor.

I compared it to placing a Black Box on social media because no other changes are being made. Until they agree to make some type of changes within the franchise and on the outside with the contestants that come on the show, then it's all in vain. You know, it's like what they did with me. Here's your Black Bachelorette. No other changes are made. We go right back to normal in the next season, which is what they did.

What are some of those changes that you'd like to see? Are you really concerned? Well, no, because you know what, though? The reason why I ask is because for me, just from the outside looking in, and obviously, you know, we talked a little bit about a second ago, and Jess, obviously I don't know very much. about the bachelor we've touched on that.

But it seems like anything that they did would be hollow short of this. This was such a huge thing like hanging over their head, right? Right. And so if the bachelor comes out and in any way says, you know, we speak to diversity or we're going to do this or we're going to do that. The first thing I'm going to say is, well, all that's hollow and it means nothing because there's this huge, huge, huge, huge. thing that never has happened there.

And it seems to be, there seems to be some intentionality behind that. So it's almost as if I'm trying to understand like what else are you, what else you're saying specifically? Because if they don't give you the Black Bachelor, it seems like none of that other stuff matters. No, it does matter because I, what I wanted first was a statement of acknowledgement. I wanted them to acknowledge that they've been problematic in the past and a vow to make changes in the future going forward.

That is what I needed, something to admit and recognize that you have been part of the problem. You are the reason we haven't had a Black Bachelor and you are the reason that an audience is receptive of having a person of color as the lead of this franchise. That's why the ratings were low during my season. So what are you going to do to implement some changes? How are you going to have a person of color that's a lead and then not cast a racist on her season? You didn't know that because you even watched my season. There was a racist, a blatant racist on my season.

So that's why you need people of color in the decision room. You need people of color that are casting producers that are in the house working with the contestants to make them feel more included and more accepted. You need to stop having problematic storylines for people of color. Like what? Give me an example of problematic storyline because once again, it's one of the episodes I happen to not catch because I'm a bachelor's answer. Yeah. Like on my season, there were a couple of angry black men. And the way they showed them was them getting angry in the house at a white contestant who was egging them on, who turned out to be the racist.

I didn't know at the time. And that's how they were defining them when there were so much more to those men. With me, they labeled me an angry black female in my finale. They baited me, asked me with questions. Then the host says to me, Rachel, you seem angry.

Man, man, I wasn't cursing. I wasn't raising my voice. I was just sitting there on stage. And I was like, angry. Do you know everybody took that moment and started labeling me? Oh, she's angry. She's a bitch.

Now we're seeing her true colors on stage. So stop playing into these stereotypes that this audience has for people of color. Show us as we are. Make the audience fall in love with us the way you do other contestants on the show. I think that if they always had their eye on this guy,

why don't you have the statement? Say you're going to make some changes. Maybe talk about some of the steps that you want to make to change things in the franchise and then cast a bachelor and announce him in the normal time that you would. Because normally they would announce it around August, September.

Right. They was trying to make sure they got people off their ass early. It was like, don't even start. And by the way, they won't shut me up. I mean, no, obviously, it's somewhere right now. How in the world is she going to have a problem with this? This is what everybody's been asking for. Shouldn't they? And it's such a teachable moment.

It's like, gestures are nice, platitudes are nice, but what people want to see and what they want to believe is that actual change is occurring. And when you're talking about all of these things, and not to put words in your mouth, they seem to be sort of indicative of systems that exist inside the production of the show, right? You're right.

And what you're saying to be saying, and you said it so eloquently, but what I'm understanding is what you're saying is there probably would have been a black bachelor, a male lead long ago, had some of these things actually been different. and there have been more diversity and people not being hung up on so many things

and kind of like putting him out there without doing that other stuff is hollow. I'm feeling that. But there are people that are going to look at that, look at it from the outside looking in, and say, well, they address the problem. But like in so many things they were talking about today, the problems go deeper than the cosmetics.

They just do. Yeah. And the cosmetics, they matter in terms of like, you know, I guess how somebody would feel. but they don't matter in terms of, you know, what actually is going to get you to a different point in society. Yeah. In 2012, there was a discrimination suit that was filed by some of the contestants of color

against the production company in regards to not showcasing contestants of color, not casting them on the show, them not being leads. And they argued that it was their First Amendment right to do that because it was part of the creative concept. of the show. So there's some deep-rooted issues within this franchise, and I'm hoping that, you know, after these announcements from last week,

we're taking some steps in the right direction. Yeah, well, look, I tell you right now, whatever you want from them, Big Race, this is the time to get it. Right? If you want to, if, if, right now, if you want to change the show to Rachel Lindsay's Bachelor and just going there and, like,

do, like, completely have, have everybody in the Bachelor drinking from cups with your face on it. And anything, whatever you want, this is the time to get it. The Bachelor himself, Matt James, like, what do you think? What do we know about this guy?

Give us the lowdown, the rundown on Matt James. We're doing The Bachelor check-in early in the show. Tell us about it. I don't know much about Matt James. And I also, it's so bad. People are going to be like, this girl is never happy. I hated the way they rolled him out.

and introduced him to the world. Juliet and I talked about this on her podcast, Bachelor Party. They let us know four things. He's black. He has a white mother. And he's best friends with the most popular guy and the most popular girl who happened to be white of the franchise. That's it.

That's all they said. They didn't talk about what this man does. While we've waited this long for this man to be the one that they chose to be the bachelor, nothing. We don't know. I mean, I know that he does a lot of dance. on social media? You sent me that video of him and that guy.

Who was that guy he was dancing with? His best friend in the franchise. Who is that guy? His name's Tyler. Tyler. Like, yeah, they were, that was an interesting video. And that's why you needed to see it. That was an interesting video of them, you know,

shirtless and dancing and doing it. That was a whole, because really one thing that kind of put me off about Matt James just initially is that they're in that video together dancing. that white boy is cutting him up, man. I don't like that. That white boy, Matt James was a step behind dance-wise, man. This is not the time to come in. Also, he's got to have rhythm.

He's got to have rhythm. I'm not saying he has to have rhythm. I'm just saying at that particular point, that looked like Marky Mark and one of his backup dancers. That's not the look that he's really going for right now. But I don't know much about him, too. It is interesting that they kind of obammed him. You know, they started them off with a nice sort of birabye,

biracial bachelor. They didn't go straight to like, hey, yo, it's the bachelor, Leroy Jenkins Jr. You know, they, they, they,

they, they, they, they, ease you into the chocolate. Yeah, while putting a little, a little,

little caramel in it. They made you comfortable. Can I ask you this? Do you feel like there's more added pressure on him to be a black man and represent himself that way in light of the time

that they decided to name him the black. the first black bachelor. They're going to tear the show apart, man. They are. I'm going to just be real with you. Like, they're going to tear the show apart. Like, they really are.

What's going to happen is that people that have never cared about the bachelor before are going to suddenly care now. Like you? Yeah. And a lot of those people are going to have different metrics for what they think a successful season of The Bachelor is. I mean, they don't know anything about it. I don't know very much about it.

And there are going to be some relationship dynamics that are going to be in there. It's going to be how many white girls do they have on there? How many sisters do they're going to have on there? What they could do is they could hitch it. I call it hitching it. Okay. You want to this. What's this?

Hitching it is when, okay, so Hitch is starring Will Smith. You see this movie? Yes, love it. You love that movie, right? Yeah, it's funny. Now, if I love Hitch too. Now, the romantic love interest in Hitch is Eva Mendez. If you notice for a little time there in a couple of Will Smith's bigger movies, right, his romantic interest was kind of a Latina, you know?

You had Eva Mendez, you had Rosario Dawson and men in black too. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you come back now earlier on, enemy estate and stuff like that, not so much. But and the reason why is because as Will Smith, I think even in seven pounds, it was, they might came back to Rosario Dawson or something like that. I got to look and then of course you have focus

and other movies like that. And the reason why, once Will Smith got to a certain level, it becomes difficult. The dynamics of putting black love on screen change. And there's a story behind Hitch and how they cast his romantic lead. Because if you do an interracial movie,

if you do a white lead, sometimes that doesn't play overseas. Right. Right. And if you do a black lead, then you got yourselves a black movie. If you got two black people in love on screen, and that's the thing, you got yourself a black movie. Okay. But a way that you can flip that a little bit and not go too far either way and still

have some color on the screen is to make his romantic lead a Latino. Tina. And no one's going to have a problem with that. Like a lot of people that nobody's going to have because, you know, some people have an issue with, you know, and no one's going to have an issue with that. But it stops short of it being like two, too black. Because one of the things that's most aggressive to people is black love. Showing two black people in love, kissing, hugging, all of that stuff like that. That type of black happiness and fulfillment, it, that. That. That. changes. Like, that's different. You know, like, people... I get you. People get, like, oh, look at them. Like, you know what I mean? It's too human. It's too, it's too real. And at that point, you know, Will's do the thing.

And so with this Matt James situation, they could mess with the numbers a little bit. I wonder if they do enough that... So that he has enough black women on the... They will. On the show. You think so. They will. And I think... I think they have.

have to at this point. That's the thing. There's a petition going around that says that there should be a certain percentage of people of color on the show. So I think that there will be a number of black women, probably a record number than you've seen before, but it's still ultimately up to him who he chooses to bring throughout his journey. As we say, you'll learn to start talking in that way, too. The journey. Shout out to him. I don't know why it doesn't seem like you're fucking with him. No, no, no, don't start that. Don't start that. There's two separate things. I support him and I want everybody to watch his season so he does have good ratings so they don't use that as an excuse to not do this again.

Watch Matt James, support him. I don't think it's fair to him the timing of the announcement. It takes away from who he is. Even the way they rolled him out, it's distracting. It's like, oh, this is all you want us to know of this man. This is why we waited this long. There's got to be more to him. I just don't think it's fair to him.

So I hope the next time we see him on our TV screens, we actually get to know who this man is. That's all I'm saying. Yeah. For me, they just got to, they're going to have to lean into the fact that this is a little bit of a different situation. Like, they give out roses on The Bachelor, right? Maybe, maybe Kente cloths. Maybe, or maybe the heart-shaped herb from Wakanda. Okay, that's not.

What's he going to do? Dig into the garden. No, like, no, you have a bunch of heart-shaped herbs. You know what I mean? Now you know the folks don't know what that is. Visions of the ancestors behind him. And you have a little, like, Lady Smith, Black Monbubon. So, you know, do the whole thing.

And he gives them. Now, remember, he's half white. So what, man? No, I'm just saying. It's like, it ain't Wakanda up in here. Ain't no time for that, though. Like, this is, he can't. I'm going to pass your creative, your creative thoughts along.

Yeah. This is what you got to do. You got to, don't step on my ideas. Like, take them out, give them a spin. You know what? I'm not. Because I am more excited that you're into this. You know, you've been.

totally against the show. And the fact that now you're a slight fan of it, I'm into I'm off for it. Let's go. I'm watching. Matt Jay. Something else I watched. 846. Dave Chappelle special. Dave Chappelle special,

not what I will call a comedy special, what I would call societal observations from just one of the finest communicators of our time. Maybe one of the finest communicators I have ever, ever heard. And this goes to anyone else that I listen to.

I don't care who it is. I don't care if it's, I don't know, Malcolm X, Chomsky, any of those guys. I'm not saying that what the words that comes out of his mouth are as important as Malcolm X's. But as far as as a communicator, Dave Chappelle is as an effective communicator as anyone I've ever heard. What did you think of his, like I said, it wasn't funny. So not comedy special, but what did you think of his special? Well, did you know this was coming?

No, I didn't. Okay. I thought it was just me. I just missed it because I started getting all these messages sending me the link and I'm like, did I miss something? I missed this announcement. So I really didn't know what to expect other than I guess I thought it was going to be his typical comedy special because we've never seen anything else than this from him.

So I have to say that it exceeded my expectations because I didn't have any, but also just because it was that brilliant. More than a comedy special, it felt like while he was. on stage, he was still processing his thoughts. That's how I felt like he was talking it out. And it almost felt like church in a way. I don't know if it was the setting. Right, right, right, right. I don't know if it was the setting. I don't know if it was because he had that notebook in his hand, or it was the passion that he spoke with, you know, the vervent way he addressed the crowd. It was, it was so deep. It was, at times I felt like he was, he wanted to be funny, but then kind of was brought back to what he's, his

purpose was in having this entire special, like really what he wanted to communicate. The way that he would talk about a sensitive subject, like the, oh, well, Christopher Dorner, the way he talked about him, but didn't, you know, I guess glorify what it is that he did, but brought it back to an analogy of saying why it was important to talk about, why comparing it to what's going on now and the way we're reacting versus how the police force reacted. Even when he started talking about the earthquake, I was like, where is he going with this? And then he brought it back to being scared and thinking he was going to die. And that was only 35 seconds compared to the eight minutes and 46 seconds.

He was angry. And him standing on stage, it was like it was all of us talking. Like I felt that. And certain things that I've struggled to express, I felt like he expressed them so well for me. Even him addressing Don Lemon, I thought it was kind of ironic, though, because Don Lemon kind of called him out for not speaking out. And then this whole special is kind of about that. but that's neither here nor there. But anyways, I thought it was absolutely brilliant.

What did you think about it? Oh, love the way he talked about Candace Owens too. I just had to ask you. He said, well, what I can't say, he said it. Right, exactly. So normally when a comedian has a special, you know, this is sometime after whatever the emphasis for said special is, right? So I saw Dave at the palladium some years ago,

and it was, and he had all of these musings and ideas about things that were going on in society, but normally they're retrospective. It's taken a while, right? Like he was talking about Caitlin Jenner and stuff like that. Well, we were already used to Caitlin Jenner. We were already kind of exploring the shift in society that was happening as trans Americans sort of asserted their rights and what Caitlin Jenner meant. And that happened without Dave.

And then what Dave does as a comedian is he comes back and contextualizes it through comedy. Okay. The most striking thing about this particular special was that he didn't feel like he had the luxury of waiting to do that. Like he wasn't going to wait and sum this moment up six months from now at the end of the year, New Year's Eve special or in time for next spring. He wasn't going to come back and tell what this meant and have time to write jokes and have time to interweave it with other things that have happened. Because a lot of times when comedians are doing this, they're going back and looking at the absurdity and calling out the absurdity of events that had already taken place. And because they can do that, they can, you know, extrapolate out of them, the humor. Right.

They've had to speak now. Dave didn't want to miss the moment here. He had to speak now. And that changes your process. So maybe there wasn't even room for him to be funny. The only thing that there was room for him to be was the most important thing that he could be up on that stage, which was human.

Like you said, like he was emoting. But in a way, when you look at a situation like Christopher Dorner, well, the situation with Christopher Dorner is you're going to come away from that and everyone's going to look at what Dornor did. and they're going to say, that guy's a monster.

And it was vicious and terrible and monstrous, for sure. But the question that he asked was why so many ex-military black men felt like they were in the middle of a war. And the answer to that question is, is because guys who are taught to recognize what the characteristics of a war are, it felt like a war to them. They felt like they were in the middle. middle of war. And the only way for them to sort of rectify or reconcile what was going on in their

heads was to wage war in retaliation. And those are sensitive things to talk about. Because in the case of Dornner, innocent people were killed. And that's not something that anyone is ever going to advocate for, myself included. I know you're not going to. But it gives you sort of a look into what it is we're dealing with America and what the stakes really are. As far as him speaking to Candace Owens and speaking to Don Lemon, I think the Candace Owens stuff,

the way she responded to it is what you're always going to get from her. What she said was, I knew that she'd spike the football after her name popped up. Like, you can't kill Candace Owens. You can't. Like, she's maybe one of the only things

that the only way to neutral it is to ignore it. Most other things you have to attack them head on, but you can't kill it. You can't do it that way. You can't neutralize her that way. She heard Dave Chappelle's, mentioned her in the special, and her antennas went up. That's what she lists for. Yeah, that's their goal. Yeah. So that's just not the way you deal with that. As far as Don, you know, look, I thought what Dave said about Don was fair. I like Don Lemon. But I thought Actually, Don Lemon, we talked about this. Yeah.

Calling out all of those people was bizarre anyway. What do you think about the criticism that Dave Chappelle didn't mention any of the women that have been impacted by police brutality when he was on the stage? There's been some criticisms levied his way by some really, really, really bright people. David Dennis, a great writer on Twitter wrote a whole piece. about the fact that Dave Chappelle went eight minutes and 46 seconds. It didn't break up any women. Was that glaring to you that he omitted Breonna Taylor or Sandra Bland or some of the other women that have been affected by police brutality?

It wasn't glaring to me. It was a thought. But again, I said this when we start talking about it. It seemed to me that he was processing things while he was on stage. I mean, I don't even, there were certain points in his special where he would say, I'm sorry, this isn't funny, or it was supposed to be funny. It almost made me feel like at some points he was going to turn it and talk about something else, but was so impassioned by what he was talking about that he just kind of kept going.

Like it was a sermon, like we said. So I don't think he intentionally meant for them to not call out any women or not say their names. I just think that he was really coming from a place of anger, of frustration, of filling all his emotions in front of all those people on stage. don't think it was intentional. I mean, of course, I would have loved for him to say their names because that's the whole point of what we're saying is black women are ignored in all of this. But I don't think that was the point of his special. Yeah, I think it's a, it's a fair criticism when you're looking back on it. Sure. It's a fair criticism to point out. I don't know if it's emotionally fair. Yeah. It's it's intellectually fair. I don't know if it's emotionally fair. But

having said that though if it takes a little you know tap on the chin from Dave Chappelle for us to remember and I just remember as an afterthought but champion the rights of black women

then it's okay I mean the reality I mean the reality is that we can't let the sisters get lost in the shuffle and a lot of times we do and I don't think he was trying to I agree with you but maybe it's symptomatic of something that's a little deeper that we all need to kind of address.

And if that gets that conversation started, then I'm cool with that. But did he call out other names? He did. He called out, remember he talked about, so he talked about George Floyd. He spoke about specifically another incident that had happened in his hometown. Oh, because it was in the same city, John Crawford. Yeah. Yeah.

And if I'm, if I remember, I also think. he brought up Alton Sterling in Baton Rouge. I'm not sure. He brought up Eric Garner for sure. Now that you're saying it, he definitely brought up Eric Garner. Eric Garner and Alton Sterling. So, but think of the name. Think of how he was bringing up those names.

And I'm not trying to defend him. Obviously, I'm a black female and I'm an advocate for black women, period. But just understanding the special and how he was communicating things and comparing things to the title of it, 846, it was about George Floyd. He was explaining to people that this is the first time we've seen somebody say, I can't breathe. Hence, Eric Garner, then he was saying a week later, we saw it happen again with Alton Sterling. And then he was talking about the very city that they were in with John Crawford. So it all kind of intertwined with the way that he was laying out his special. It's not like he didn't say Ahmad Arbery.

He didn't say Sean Reed. He didn't name these other names because it intertwined with his message. Yeah. I get it. At this particular point, you know, you don't want to have to do a tragedy, police killing roll call every time. But you always want to make sure that what it is that you're doing, that you remember and prioritize the sisters because nothing's going to move forward without us, like having that unit be intact.

And I think just, you know, like you said, black women are demanding to be heard and seen. And that's not going to change. And I don't know why it's, you know, you drag them. You have to drag people by their noses and ears to do that, but that's not going to change. I noticed you said something there. You said you called yourself a black female. Are you okay with the term female? You said female.

Oh, okay. Is female cool with you? Are you cool with being called female? Yeah. This is a point of contention. This is a point of contention. This is a point of contention. But how would you say it?

Would you be like that female over there? Okay, so listen, I'll be honest with you. Some years ago, we're all sitting around where we're at on the rooftop of the SLS and we're having a conversation. Now, remember, I come from the generation where bitch and hoe and all of that stuff was, especially in the 90s,

a completely acceptable way to refer to a lady. Completely acceptable. Maybe not to her face. Definitely not to her face. Yeah. All right. You're not going to call a sister to that. But as far as just throwing the words around, sure, of course, right?

So when I got older, female seemed like an enlightened way to sort of an enlightened descriptor. I thought I was on that. And I was sitting down, talking to these ladies. Actually, rest in peace jazz. Jazz was the spearhead of this conversation. and they go, no, female is out. We don't like to be called females. I've never heard that.

I did. No, I'm not doubting you. I'm telling you, now, like, don't call us females. Like, female is, it's, it's, I can't remember the actual problem with it. It was like, it was cold, like you call an animal, male or female. Like, I am a woman and I want full access to my identity or a lady, something like that. But since then, I haven't used it. female.

Girl, I can see as being a problem. A lot of women don't like to be called girls. They're ladies, they're women, they're females. I can understand that. I never heard that about a female. But what I was going to say in regards to the Dave Chappelle special is that I think the bigger picture is that there's so many names that need to be said that it's a problem. That's the bigger problem.

Whether it's male or female, you're going to leave somebody out. That's the damn problem. Yeah. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it coming.

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if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. So lots is going, a lot of stuff is going on, man.

Like there's so much going on. You would think that the police would be on their absolute best behavior during this time of heightened racial tension. But they are not. Days ago, Rashard Brooks was killed in a Wendy's parking lot in Atlanta, Georgia. What happened is in its on video is Rashard had been drinking, and the video starts off with him sort of talking to police officers about the fact that he's clearly intoxicated in the video. But he had pulled over in the Wendy's parking line, and I guess he had fallen asleep or he was inside of the car. Cops were alerted to the fact that he was there. They speak to him.

And at the point that police officers tried to take Rashard into custody, he, he, tries to book it. They grab him. A scuffle ensues. He has tased a couple of times. The taser doesn't have very much of an effect on him. He gets up. He runs as he is running away. The police

open fire on him and they kill Richard Brooks in the parking lot of the windows. I believe one of the cops has already this has been ruled a homicide. One of the police officers there has already been fired. The

sticking point in the video, which is going to be the source of the discourse, is some people believe that Rayshar Brooks at the end turned around and pointed to Taser at police, which is why they fired on him. I've seen the video. There's no way you can watch that video and think that Rishar Brooks was doing anything other than fleeing. He was absolutely of zero threat to those police officers. and I also believe that at that point, the taser that he had had already been deployed. The little wire thing was coming out of the taser.

So I'm almost certain that the taser had already been deployed. But they killed him. He's dead. Your thoughts on the video, your thoughts on where we are right now, your thoughts on the cops using unnecessary lethal force on another black body. Yeah.

So it's like we can't catch a break. Like we know this happens in our community, but it's every week. It's another story, another name, another loss to the black community. And it's like, we can't even do the right thing and be okay. This man is sitting in his car, trying not to drive home,

a couple of blocks away from home, try to sleep it off under the influence, doing the right thing. This is what you should do. There were so many other options that the cops could have taken. They even talked to him for like 30 minutes before how it escalated to him dying happened. I mean, he, you know, he said, I'll lock the car door. I'll go, I think it was to his sister's home.

Is that what he said? Well, he said his sister lived like less than a mile away or so I don't know if he said a specific distance, but it was apparently walking distance. He could have gone to his sister's house. Yeah. There's so many things that could have been done. And to add on to what you were saying about. the taser and him turning around, he had two shots in his back. If he was turning around to

taser, how'd they shoot him in his back? He was turned. They shot him in the back. He was getting away. And I thought about something you had said on the podcast before talking about Mel Pride. This to me was Mel Pride because if you look at the video, there's a long line of cars. This happens at a windy and it's right by the drive-through. So there's an entire audience capturing this whole thing happened from them talking to them wrestling to him getting away. He's taking the taser and running away. This is Mel Pride to where that officer was embarrassed. That he got his ass kicked.

Yeah, he got his ass kicked. And the guy was getting away and he saw all those people and the audacity of him, knowing that there were people watching, honestly putting them in danger as well, just firing shots. You never know what it can ricochet off of. Shoots this man in cold blood in front of all these people as if, he can get away with it. This is Chauvin level to me. The way Chauvin looked at that camera when he had his knee on George Floyd's neck,

the like, I'm above the law. I can do this. I can get away with this. That's, that's really what bothered me is that there was no threat to your life. This man is fleeing. We've seen time after time when the person who they're trying to apprehend is of a different color that they have certain officers can show restraint. They know how to use it. They're trained to use it. That's why this whole retraining of the officers blows my mind because that's not the issue. They've been trained. They know what to do. They're just not doing it. What I will say, though, about the imminent threat, and this is what I think that goes towards this officer, I don't know his name, getting charged for murder. If you really felt that your

life was threatened, that you were in immediate harm in danger, you would have felt that the most when Rashard was on top of you reaching for whether it could have been your gun or your taser, when he was wrestling with you, that is the moment that you could have had an argument. Not even saying it was valid, but that was the most valid argument to say that you felt like you were. I understand exactly what you're talking about.

But you were in harm. But when he moved away from you and is running away, there was no fear of safety, no fear for your life. This man needs to be charged with murder. He cold-blooded killed him in front of, of all these people with no regard for his life and as if he was above the law. It infuriates me.

Yeah, very upsetting. Look, I was watching something this morning that was comparing it to a really disturbing video that was out of Salt Lake City. And the guy's name was Michael Bruce Peterson. He was a parolee. He had said that he would never go back to prison. He said, you'd rather die and go back to prison.

And he had gone into a massage studio and grabbed a woman's butt, then laid down, and demanded a massage. The police were called. Cops came. He was walking away from them. Wouldn't turn around and address them. And then they got to a filling station,

and he got into somebody's car, a stranger's car. Nobody was in it, but he got into a stranger's car. And at that point, the cops tased him. The cops tased him, but it didn't stop him. what's up of these tasers? But the cops, the cops tased him, but that didn't stop him. He continued to come and he attacked the cop, was able to fight the cop, get his baton from him.

And he got his baton from the police officer. And then he was coming towards the police with the baton in his hand. Like advancing towards them with the baton in his hand. The police opened fire. The difference in the Salt Lake City case was that when you watch the video, he clearly had disarmed, a cop of his baton and was advancing on a police officer. Now, to me, do I think that lethal force is necessary if some guy has a baton?

No, I don't. But in a case where someone is coming towards you with the baton, you could see where a cop would think that some level of force using your sidearm would be necessary, right? Like, if this guy's going to come, he's going to beat the hell out of me with the baton, whatever, whatever, I got a shit. People have used that case to, as a parallel to Richard Brooks, to say, listen, it also happens to white people.

By the way, I'm sure that it does. When we talk about policing in America, we're talking about white versus black, of course, that dynamic cannot be divorced away from what we're talking about. But what we're really talking about is society versus blue. Mm-hmm.

And blue is really the color. Us being black just means that our lives to mainstream American society are less valuable. So when something happens to us, no one cares. Yeah. That is the only thing that separates the way people are treated by the cops, white and black,

from the perspective of law enforcement, is that what they can get away with, what they can do to, to people. They can do whatever they want to us because society doesn't really value our lives. But made no mistake about it, the cops are abusing their power and they're abusing their privileges across the board. They're doing these things across the board. These things are, they're more egregious when they happen to black Americans and they happen to us disproportionately. But that's only because they've been told that they can get away with that. If they could do everyone like that, they just might.

Now, there's of course racism involved in a lot of these situations to where, you know, some of these cops are on the streets Monday through Friday. And then Saturday, they're with the grand cyclopsis and the dragons of some of their favorite institutions down there in the South and in the Midwest. But the thing that struck me about the video when you watch both of them is just how different they were. you and when people use sort of things like that to make their point, I can see where the mentality of the police officers, where it's gotten so poisoned because the situations are so different. One guy shot at range far away running, okay, almost as if that's a punitive act.

Like, I'm mad at you so you must die. That's what it was. It's a punitive act. It's a punishment. And you have to comply people out there. And look, it's best in any situation to make things easy on yourself, right? If you can. But the reality is that if you're in a situation with the police officer and you don't

feel like your rights are being respected, you do not have to go quietly. You don't. You can tell a police officer, I am an American. these are my rights as an American citizen. Fuck you. You can refuse to give your name. You can refuse to step out of your car. None of those things are punishable by death.

No, they're not. The police officers don't have the right to rob you of due process because they're agitated. And I am absolutely floored every time I hear Americans, some of the same Americans, that don't want to be told to wear fucking face masks will tell you that if you don't say yes or no sir to a police officer, that that's punishable by death that the state can execute you

for not complying with a cop. It's weirdo shit. So when I look at the video, it's disheartening one because the brother lost his life, but two, because, yo man, we got a long fucking way to go.

And that's such an important point because you would think that based on what we're going through right now in society where we have the whole world watching us and understanding pretty much what Black Lives Matter means and the movement and you still have cops gunning us down in the street with an audience there. I mean, it was Walter Scott all over again. Same thing. Walter Scott shot in the bat. Like look it up. If you don't know these names, we've mentioned several names while we're on this podcast. You need to look them up because I feel like a lot of, you know, not maybe some blacks too, but non-blacks are just now understanding and being educated and becoming aware of these names that we're saying.

Look these up because I think we have a really diverse audience that listens to the podcast. I saw that and I said, Walter Scott is the first thing I thought when I saw. saw it. Now, I do want to give credit, though, to mayor of Atlanta, Keisha Lance Bottoms for taking swift action and firing that officer because when our officers fail us, then we need leadership that steps up and punish this punishes them the way that they should. Now, she can only do so much. It's at this point where he needs to be charged, prosecuted, and go through the system. But kudos to her for firing him as he should be. Which brings us to our higher learning. running buzzword of the week.

Okay? I'm going to listen. I'm going to, I'm. I like the way you're introducing this segment. Yeah, I'm saying it's, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, not even a buzz word. It's a bus term. Okay. Maybe I'll come up with a better as, as we go on, I'll come up with a better name for it.

But I'm going to, on the, on the, the first show of the week, give you guys something every single week. We're going to give you something every single of the week, every single week that we, We feel like you should know. And the bus term of the week today is qualified immunity. All right. They might be asking yourself, what is qualified immunity? I'm going to tell you right here.

Van and Big Rache, I'm going to tell you. Qualified immunity is it, what it does is protects police officers in very plain language from being held personally liable for things that they do on. on the job. Give you to give you an example like this. Derek Chauvin, I think, is still due or still eligible to receive like a $1 million pension, despite anything that's going on right now. If qualified immunity was ended, you could sue him individually for not only money

that he already has, but maybe even perhaps money that's in his pension. the Justice and Policing Act that we talked about that the Congressional Black Caucus and the mostly Democratic House, the Democratic majority in the House, is putting forth, which will probably end up dying in the Senate, ends qualified immunity.

Earlier this week, Senator Tim Scott from South Carolina taught and said that the Republicans are not going to even consider a bill that ends qualified immunity. that takes that off the table, that allows you to sue an individual officer. Criminal charges are always, always of paramount importance when we're talking about accountability for officers who are guilty of misconduct and murder. But another insanely important deterrent would be ending qualified. community. If you lost everything for making a mistake, the reverberations throughout police officers

or police departments all over the country might be different. You might see people think twice before pulling that trigger if they knew that they could be held personally liable. The reason why the Republicans don't want to end qualified immunity is because it would be a disaster for their relationship with police unions and other pro-law enforcement. lobbying type groups because they are not going to want to see an end come to that because you then have reckless, not reckless, you have, man, overwhelming accountability, both civilly and and criminally. And also remember that, you know, a lot of times police being part of the criminal justice system, they get favorable juries, they get all kinds of things like that.

burden to prove wrongful death in a civil suit, uh, attorney, big rage is, it's, the standard is lower than it is to prove murder, right? Yes. So qualified immunity would go,

ending qualified immunity would go very far and providing accountability for police. Right. Right. And as civil as preponderance of the evidence more likely than not, as with criminal, it's beyond a reasonable doubt. This is what I will say about, were you done? I'm sorry.

Yeah, once the big legal words come in, you know I'm done. Preponderance and all of that. Well, this is what I want to say about qualified immunity is because it's the way that it is being used, that it's becoming a problem. So qualified immunity is everything that Vann said. But if there is a violation of clearly established constitutional rights, then that officer or that government official can be sued. The problem is that the Supreme Court has made it harder and harder for that to happen because qualified immunity is an affirmative

defense. So meaning like self-defense, which is something that we're all familiar with. So it is something that an officer asserts as to their justification as to defeat the defense or to mitigate whatever the legal consequence is. So, normally, when somebody asserts affirmative defense or like self-defense, it is they have the burden of proof to prove why they should be given that claim, why it's an affirmative defense. The problem with qualified immunity is that the Supreme Court has said the burden is on the plaintiff. So it's unusual because that doesn't normally happen.

Usually the person who makes the claim has to prove it. They put it on the plaintiff. So in this case, it's the person, it would be George Floyd's family who has to prove why they shouldn't be able to assert an affirmative defense. So it makes it even harder and harder. And the problem is that at this point, the Supreme Court is like, if there's any type of debate, then that government official is entitled to qualified immunity. And that's the problem with it.

It's almost becoming absolute immunity. Absolute immunity is something that your immune period, like judges, you can can't sue a federal judge. You can't sue judges for decisions that they make. They have absolute immunity. Government officials have qualified immunity, which meaning if they violate your constitutional rights, then they are not free or able to assert immunity. So that's the problem is that it is being dished out these days like they have absolute immunity. And that is why they feel like they are above the law because they feel like the law protects them no matter what. And that is why we have to get rid of it. And what I can't stand about Tim Scott is that

I don't understand how you can stand up and say, what happened to George Floyd is horrendous. It's horrific and it shouldn't happen. Well, you've been dubbed to lead the charge for the GOP in the Senate as far as providing some type of police reform or what this bill is going to look like. I don't understand why you would still be fighting to keep qualified immunity if you really believe that what happened to George Floyd was horrible. If you believe that, then you've got to punish these officers. You have to make them feel like they are not above the law and that they can't get a pass for what they do. They have to feel like they can be punished, as you said, criminally, but also civilly. We should say Tim Scott's a black man.

They're from South Carolina. And like you said, he is going to be in charge of the GOP's version of police reform and whatever that's going to end up being. He talked a little bit about decertification, that the certifying officers, he feels like could be, a middle ground in terms of bridging the gap between the Democrats and the Republicans. But there's something else that he said that everybody should pay attention to in my opinion. I can't remember what show he was on. I think it was Meet the Press or something like that. Face the Nation, maybe.

It was Face the Nation. It's Face the Nation. Okay. So he said, and this is where the politics of all of this kind of come into play. What he said was he said, what we can't afford to do is nothing. All right. Now, on its face, that seems like an incredibly positive thing to say. Here you have Senator Tim Scott calling for action, saying there must be action that the American people aren't going to allow this to be dealt with passively.

We have to get something passed. But the problem with that statement is this. What he's really doing is playing a political game where he's dog whistling to the American public that. that if nothing does get past, that it will be the Democrats' fault, all right? That because the Democrats don't want to budge or unqualified immunity or maybe something else in the bill, that it will be their fault that police reform isn't on President Trump's desk

before he leaves in November and tries to take the desk with him. But the issue with that is this. There's only one thing worse than having no. bill. It's having a bill that doesn't address the problem, a bad bill. So I've used the disease analogy to death, but we're talking about a disease, so I'm going to use it again. It's effective. It's an effective analogy. Let's say you go to the doctor, right? And the doctor tells you, like, you have this disease. Something's wrong with you, right? I don't know how to treat it. That one doctor tells you they don't know how to treat it. Okay.

That seems like incompetence on behalf of the doctor or it seems like the worst thing that they could tell you. No, the worst thing that they could tell you is that they've treated it and that you're cured when you're really not. Because then you are going to ignore symptoms. You're going to ignore problems. You're going to ignore all of these things because you think that you've dealt with the problem. that is how this policing reform legislation has to be looked at. A bad bill, a bad piece of legislation is worse than actually no legislation because no legislation might mean that we get better legislation in the short to near future.

But if you pass something that's bad, people might back off a little bit. When I say people, I mean the American public, might back off their demands a little bit, thinking that the problem has been addressed. Right. And to me, there is no way to address what has to happen to a police officer once they snatch their life without addressing qualified immunity. If a qualified immunity is a poison pill and the Republicans want to take that out,

then it's, to me, it's a conversation stopper. Well, no, you hit the knell on the head when you said it's political. The reason that they don't want to fight for qualified immunity is strictly political. It's not for justice. It's not for the American people. It's because they don't want to lose their seat. That's what it is. They don't want to lose their funding.

They're backing. I just want to say this. This is what Tim Scott's legislation wants to focus on. Increasing information sharing, reforming and training tactics to prioritize de-escalation, and changing how departments deal with officer misconduct. Here's the problem. The reforming training and tactics to prioritize de-escalation. escalation.

Van, are these officers not already trained? Do they not go through the academy? We can't train this out of them. Exactly. It's always something like, well, we're going to have sensitivity to be training. We're going to come in and have black guys play with puppies for two hours in front of them to show them that black guys like dogs. No, it's like you can't train this out of them.

You have to inject some consequence or is this one ever changed. If you know that you're above the law, if you know the law is in your favor, then none of these things are going to help. None of these things are going to fix the problem. None of these things are going to get rid of these bad apples as the Trump administration refers to them as. You have to punish them. You have to make them feel like if I take this action, I am going to suffer for it.

My family is going to suffer for it. My well-being is going to suffer for it. This is it. And that's what needs to be implemented. You have to put fear in them so they don't make these actions that police brutality completely ends. That's the only way you're going to do it is if you punish them, and you make them fearful of what will happen

if they do something wrong. This is nothing. These are baby steps. This is already in place. I agree. I couldn't agree with you more. The more important question, though, to ask you is who side are you on?

Kyrie Irvin and Dwight Howard's side or LeBron James is the side? Well, you know which side. I'm on. Choose. Choose. Choose sides. Kyrie or LeBron? I'm with Kyrie.

I'm with Kyrie. I just feel like... First of all, you want to tell the people what's going on? Okay, so yes, let me tell the people what's going on. So the NBA is set to return. I don't know the date. I don't know the schedule. I really have a big attention.

July 31st. July 31st. August. Okay? August. It's when it's returning. Normally, I just want to say that an NBA season would start in October. The next season would start in October.

So the season's supposed to start pretty much in August. What, 22 teams come in, some reg... I really don't even know the pattern. It doesn't even matter. The point is that they all had this phone call, not all of them. I think like 80-something players were on this phone call to discuss how this is all going to look, how they feel about it. And Kyrie Irving originally said he was for it and then reneged on it and does not believe that the NBA season. He reneged.

He nigged. It's the word. It's the word. He reneged. He pro-nigged. He reneged on it. He proned on it. And basically says that we shouldn't be playing or the NBA players should not start their season because it takes away from what is happening right now in the country and it takes away from the social reform that we're trying to accomplish with Black Lives Matter.

He believes it is a distraction. You have other side of players who are saying, nope, you know what? We need a play. We need to start. Even in Austin Rivers who is saying there are players that need this money. They need to be able to take care of their families. and they can donate a portion of their proceeds to the cause. So you have people on two different sides.

I personally am on the Kyrie side. I agree. I agree because I do think that the reason that this Black Lives Matter has become so huge. Right? It started in 2013. This is not new to us. It's just new to everybody else. We have everyone's undivided attention.

We talked about the perfect storm that this is. People aren't working. They're no sports. We're in the middle of a pandemic. we have your utmost undivided attention right now. My fear is, is that when things get back to normal, whenever that may be, then this trend that is moving forward will start to subside a little bit and people will go back to their normal lives and they won't pay attention to what it is that we're asking for, for this equality. So I agree in the sense that Kyrie is saying it is going to be a

distraction. People are going to be so thirsty for live sports again, professional sports, that they're going to be so excited to watch this that they're not going to be a paying attention to the movement. So I understand that. Also, to add to that, it starts in August. The new season's supposed to start really soon. Why can't we just wait till October? We're almost there, you guys. We're almost there. At another point, I will add, I said this before, I don't know how they're going to control this. If one person gets COVID-19, then the way that you're going to have to test every player, players on the other team, the referees, all the equipment, it's just going to shut everything down. I mean, you're seeing what's happening in the NFL.

Zeke Elliott just tested positive. What would happen if the season started and he tested positive? What do we do now? Do we shut everything down? It's just too big of a mess. I say we wait till October, start the new season, and I think everything will be fine. Well, here's the thing. I don't think that the new season would start in October. So this is the way, this is, well, they're thinking about, they're saying Christmas. So this is the way things will work. So they're going to pick up the old season, start the old season back. You go from basically July 31st, which is like you said, August.

And you'd end up having the NBA finals around I think they said October. You'd have the NBA finals around then. And then if you were able to play the rest of the season out, you'd start

it again sometime after Christmas at this point. So here's the thing. I don't agree with either side because I already told you I don't care. Seriously, I don't, I don't care. I don't care. I don't care whether or not there's an NBA season this year or not. I think it would be fantastic if they were able to do it in a safe and meaningful way. Because like when you talk about having teams and you go into the bubble and weird playoffs, if it was, if they were in any way able to sort of preserve the integrity of the season and the integrity of the competition, it would be cool. I don't know if they can do that, but if they could do it, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

But also, I see the point in fucking punt on it, step back, and let's figure out how we can be most supportive of our players who want to use their voices right now. Yeah. It's interesting that Kyrie Irvin, and by the way, if you're not a huge basketball fan, Kyrie Irvin is something of an NBA enigma. He is a huge believer in the fact that the earth is flat and he's gone public with that.

Kyri is he's a sort of, I don't know, he's a malcontent. He's an absolutely dynamic and fantastic player. But if it was going to be one player that would like kind of, you know, piss in the NBA's Coca-Cola, then it would come from a guy like Kyrie Irvin. Maybe I'm not on this particular issue, because I do remember one time where he got on this boat, and there was a lot of women on the boat, I was going to put it to you like this.

Black eyes didn't matter on that boat. It looked like The Bachelor. Yeah, there you know what? So you know what I mean? So you and our people were talking about it, but look, that's his business. So I don't know if I would have necessarily expected it from Kyrie Irvin, but I think his concerns are genuine.

You know, Dwight Howard kind of said the same thing. And just to think of Dwight Howard and Kyrie Irvin kind of leading this charge, it's interesting, but it's going to put the NBA in a very, very unique place because of all the sports leagues that have dealt with sort of the fight against systemic racism and social injustice, the NBA is normally looked at as the gold standard. in this. The NBA, the NFL has just an assortment of racist owners. It's almost a prerequisite to be a racist owner.

They're like, yo, hey, we want to buy a team. How much money have you raised? That's not important. The important question is, do you hate niggas? Yes, you hate them? Cool. All right. You can have the team.

The NFL completely different to NBA, a lot more progressive, leans into a lot of these issues more heavy-handedly. So if you really got an outcry from the players, it's interesting to see whether or not the league would be willing to put commerce behind social action. It's interesting, though. Don't you feel like this, they've been working on getting the NBA together, but it seems like we're just now hearing players oppose what's happening.

Maybe because players didn't think this would actually come to fruition, maybe they didn't know that the movement would take on the life that it has. I'm not quite sure. But it does seem kind of odd that we're just now hearing from Kyrie Irving about how he feels when these plans have been in motion to start the NBA season. But I think that there are two different issues. I think the big obstacle to start the NBA season before was COVID. And so I think that it shifted.

I think the the obstacle shifted from COVID to now NBA players wanted to make sure that they're utilizing their voice with the most power that they can in this particular time of history. So I think it's a little bit of a different situation now because if it was just about COVID, I think you'd have some players that wouldn't play, but the majority of players, I think, would get back to work. So what do they do now? I mean, do they take a vote? Do they, I mean, I'm, or do they give you the option? Hey, if you don't want to play and you want to assert your rights and you want to support the movement, then you don't have to. I almost, I almost, I honestly think it's going to have to be the latter.

The question I would ask for, you know, Kyrie and Dwight Howard is exactly how does playing NBA basketball detract away from your ability to be involved? Do they feel like is it because in this particular point, they have to maybe go play in Orlando, go play in a bubble? Is it taking them away from their communities?

Is that the sort of concern? Or is thinking about basketball just something that they don't want to think about right now, which, by the way, I can understand that. I get that, if that would be the case as well. See, I took it from a different perspective. I thought they were saying it would be a distraction for us. Not necessarily for them playing,

but us as viewers will so be excited about a new season and the games that are coming on. And I figure they'll come on more frequently that we will be distracted from the movement. That's because right now, that's all we're focusing on. That's how I took it. It could be that. But to be honest with you,

I don't even think that's, you know, I was watching Daredevil yesterday, but I'm still here talking to you. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't think that that's that big of a deal. But look, I'm glad that what I am glad is that Kyrie Irvin plays in the league, that at least his concerns about it seem to be being taken seriously. But I think that they are going to play basketball.

Now, Big Rache just to let you guys know, big rage hits us with the hard out today. So Big Ray She has other things she has to do She listens She's a very important woman Can I tell you what I have to do So you'll excuse me?

What? I have to go do an interview Like for a TV interview That's why I have makeup on today I'm not trying to act brand new I'm actually surprised you And try to call me out on that Right

Well I couldn't tell Because your skin is always so flawless sister, you know what I'm saying? Hey Thank you Brown skin Um No I'm doing

a show with Cory Booker, Senator Cory Booker. So. That's cool. I mean, yeah, that's dope. Yeah, I got some shit to do with Obama later. Try to stun on me. Good for you.

I try to stun on you. That's facts. And when I say some shit, I mean, I don't mean that like, like I'm talking to him. I mean, he's coming over. We're about to play some madden. So I got to go do something with Cory Booker, man. Like, you try to flame me, dog?

Like, really? we've four or five episodes in and this already... I would never do that to you. You already the Michael Jackson of the show? Like you're about to go solo with your brothers and all of that? That's okay. Wait, wait, wait. Can I just say that a lot of people wanted us to talk about Michael Jackson

because we... We're about to do it right now. No, we don't have enough time for that. We alluded to it last episode. If you didn't listen, we mentioned Michael Jackson when we were talking about Russell Simmons and talking about how... When you find out things about your heroes,

sometimes it's hard for you to believe it or take it as true. Now, when it comes to Michael Jackson, he is both a hero of mine and Vans. But one of us feels one way about the things we've learned of him in our adult life. And another one feels the other way. We're going to talk about Michael the next episode. You're not ready. We're going to talk about Michael in the next episode. Next episode, we're going to give you the next episode both the unexpected ally of the week.

There is a leader in the clubhouse for that. And we're going to talk about Michael Jackson. Before we go, though, I want to get more information about this particular subject before we delve into it. But I do want to touch on the death of Toyin Salu. Yeah. And I guess it's Salu or Salah. I haven't already had anybody said it. So God rest that sister's soul.

This is an absolutely horrific thing out of Tallahassee. 19 years old, an activist, someone who had been on the front lines talking, marching, protesting. young black woman tweeted some time ago that she had been taken advantage of by a man that was simply offering her a place to stay. She tweeted it that she had been molested. She had been assaulted. And she was talking about other times that this had happened to her. The story itself was, you know, she was leaving a function of some sort or she was going, somewhere and she needed a place.

I'm not going to butcher this too much. I read the tweets, but it's kind of hard for me to understand. Someone offered her a ride and a place to stay. And before she knew it, something incredibly inappropriate was happening. She was being sexually abused and assaulted. She tweeted that and then hours later, she's found dead. That has. And over the next couple of days, we will get more information about this.

and talk, try to put it in the context why a story like that is so absolutely horrific. But I'm going to ask you as a black woman because the conversation right now on Twitter is about just how safe you feel in the movement, just how safe you, how protected you feel by your brothers, by black men, by black society. do you feel that black men are failing black women in terms of protecting them, keeping them safe, and standing up for them? That's a hard question to answer. I know, I mean, to put you on the spot. I can't, sometimes as a man, when you hear that,

you go, yo, man, like, I love my sisters and there's no possible way. And, you know what I mean? I mean, we all have out there and, you know, in relationships, bad fuck boys. But when you're talking about protecting a black one, women and stuff like that. You think, well, I would never want anyone, but then something like this happens and you hear the cries of so many black women, the question then becomes, are you doing

enough? And so that's why I want to. I don't know if I want to put that on black men because there are black men who really are down for their black women and really support them and take up for them and speak up for them. I think it's society in general that hasn't valued black women, who hasn't, which is why they get lost in the shuffle when it comes to saying their names, who have suffered death at the hand of police. You know, you focus on the men more than you focus on the women. I think that's why, like we talked about last week with the Russell Simmons documentary, that the black women who came forward felt like their stories wouldn't be heard, felt like

their stories wouldn't be taken seriously because that is the perception of black women in society. So I don't want to put it just on black men. I want to just put it on how we are perceived in society in general. But I do think that for us to feel more valued and to feel more heard and appreciated, it is our black men who need to do the speaking up for us. I will say that, which is probably why in Dave Chappelle's special, they were upset that they didn't say the names of women. You know, people with a platform and a voice need to be speaking up on our behalf when we can't. That's what I would say more than, I can't just blame that on black men.

I'm not going to do that. My home girl, Brooke Obie, incredibly talented film critic, she tweeted something. And rather than butcher her tweet, I am going to read it because I thought it was very, very appropriate. She says, men, what are you doing right now in public to fight misogyny in your friends, in your family, and yourself? how are you intervening to stop the attacks on black women and girls? We've had enough. If you're not actively and loudly anti-misogony, you are a part of the problem. She is right.

It is time for men, period, but especially black men, to get off of the fence as it relates to attacking misogyny. not asking for perfection, just asking for allyship. If there's a woman that's saying she's being hurt, even if it's your boy that's doing the hurting, humanity has to come before the brocode. Brocode is dead. So when it comes to protecting women, especially the women in our communities that are that close to us.

And it's not protecting her because, oh, I got a sister, I got a wife, I got a daughter protecting a human being. So we got to be better about that. Because it's right. Because it's right. We're not more about the situation down in Tallahassee as we know more. But for now, Big Rache has got to go, she's got to go catch the red eye to Washington to go talk to Cory Booker.

So we got to get up out of here. What are y'all talking about? Like, what are you talking to Cory Booker about? So it's on Watch What Happens Live, Andy Cohen's show on Bravo. So he brings in two people. You know what? You asked. You ask.

Excuse me for answering the question. I shouldn't even fucking ass. That made it even worse. You know what I'm saying? Is Robert Donnie Jr.? Is Robert Donnie Jr. going to be there, huh? Who else is going to be there?

But your name will come up because obviously I'm going to promote our podcast. Show, don't do me any favors, Big Rache. I saw a smile creep up on your face when I said that. Don't do me any favors, Big Rage, because I'm going to be here playing Madden. And that's very important, by the way. That's also something very important for my mental health and for my sintering. So don't let me any favors. That's great.

That's great. I'm not even going to knock that. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. You know what I'm going to do when I get off this call for real? I'm going to call my fucking managers. I'm going to call my managers. I'm going to be like, yo, just let you out know.

Rachel, watch what happens live. I'm on a fucking Madden League. We out. Hey. I thought you were going to go to the bathroom because you got that beet juice in your head. Oh, no, I got the beat juice. I drink in the bee juice. No.

Look, thought warriors. Take the thing caps off now, but don't stop thinking. We will be back later on in the week. I am Van Lathen. I'm Rachel Lindsay. All right. We're going to get some more higher learning, but we're going for now.