Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - David Oyelowo on ‘Government Cheese,’ Plus Keri Hilson’s Regret

Episode Date: April 11, 2025

Van and Rachel give an update on the roller coaster that is the U.S. economy (2:10) and talk Keri Hilson’s recent comments on her 2009 Beyoncé diss (16:05) before welcoming actor and producer David Oyelowo to discuss his new Apple TV+ show, ‘Government Cheese’ (28:32), the types of roles he will and will not play (39:51), and his friendship with Jonathan Majors (1:01:02). Plus, Animal Games makes a comeback (1:11:46), Terrence Howard wants to duel (1:16:44) Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: David Oyelowo Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Howellian is on is Ivan Lathan Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. I saw sinners last night. Okay, and what did you think? It was fantastic. Legitimately fantastic.

All I'm going to say, revelatory performance by Michael B. Jordan, Omar Benson Miller. Fantastic movie. Legitimately fantastic. You'll hear more about the movie for me. I'm going to be on the big picture with... Oh, is that how you got to see it early?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I ran into Omar. Shout out to Omar. He's in it? Miller. He's in it. He's got a nice big role in it. He, um...

And he invited Kalika and I out to the L.A. premiere. So we went out there and was out there with the L.A. Black Hollywood pop-up crew watching the movie. Well, it wouldn't have invited me. Who? I didn't... Man, we had to pull some strings to get the... It was tough. But it was...

It's a great movie. Can't wait to talk more about it on the big picture with Sean and Amanda. I've been seeing a lot of, they've been obviously doing their press run and they've been everywhere promoting this movie and I love a scary movie so I'm very excited to see it. It's based in the South too, right? Yeah. But I'm a little offended. They didn't come here to do that.

I would have loved to have talked to them about the movie. No, we did, I mean, this was part of the Warner Bros. People last night were like, they want to have somebody come to talk to, talk about the movie. I would love to have Omar. I love to have Omar. Miller come in here and talk about sinners with us. Yes, I would love for them to come through. I want to see it.

I want them to come here, have a conversation about it, to black people from the South. One of us loves scary movies. This shit is scary. Is it really? I'm not going to give away too much about the movie. I'm not sure.

I heard it has a lot of twists and turns. That's a lot of twists and turns. I'm not sure how much I'm supposed to be saying. I just say this, fantastic, well-directed, great script, Michael B. Jordan, in his bag. the best I've ever seen in mic on screen. So you guys go out and see Syrians.

We're going to have some more stuff about that. Probably next week as the movie is set to open. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, guselcomab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis,

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Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about trim fire. this ad to learn more about Tramfaya, including important safety information. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus. Offered by Fandul prediction markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant.

18 plus. Bonus is non-withdrawable and expires seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at bandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash herms. Opening though, Donnie, let's get into it. We don't know where we are money-wise. We'll know where we are money-wise.

We have David O'Yellow on the show today, so we're going to get to the interview in a second here. But before we do, we want to hit a couple of topics. The first one being the economy is up, it's down. It's a woozy. It's a wazi. Donnie, what's going on? Yeah, it's a roller coasterd Wednesday after Trump abruptly announced that he was going to back down on his reciprocal tariffs were in 90 days.

So the S&P rose 9.5%, which is its sharpest single-day gain since October 2008. And China, though, was the exception. They'll see tariffs increase to at least 125% from the original 104%. So as I'm to understand it, this is Trump caving. Well, not from their camp. They're saying, you know, everything's a victory. Everything's a win. But it does feel like he's caving.

Right? Because he stood up there and said, they're going to keep going and they're not going to, he didn't say negotiate. He said they're coming to us. They're begging us. We're going to continue to do what we're doing. We're standing tall, whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah.

So then to see him put the pause, unless there's some ulterior motive. Because right before he announced the pause, what did he tweet? Buy stock. Buy stock. Yeah, yeah, unless he was trying to. I definitely think that there's some market manipulation involved here.

But I'll say that what seems to have happened from a lot of the stuff that I'm reading, I want a lower third that says macroeconomist Van Lathen. It's on the case. From everything that I've been reading is that Trump and his team, the White House, were pretty steadfast that they were not going to have any pauses with the tariffs or granting the exemptions. They had said it over and over and over and over again. but the bond market, which is a very telltale sign of American economic health, started to get a little iffy there.

And some of the bigger wigs, not the stock market, the stock market pain Trump was willing to deal with. But the pain in the bond market made him kind of course correct and chicken out a little bit. And why is the bond market important? Well, the bond market is a very important indicator on the overall health of the American financial system. Macroeconomist Van Lathen. The overall health of the American economy. Obviously, bonds are the yields of bonds are very important to, they are both influenced by interest rates and stuff like that,

and also the strength of the American Treasury. bond is such an indicator of the American economy worldwide that if the bond market starts to really show some signs of pain, it can be looked at as a fracturing from what I'm reading in my classes with all of these other economists, microeconomist Van Lathen. It's a more fundamental sign of American economic pain. So I was able to watch, I'd say maybe at least a dozen YouTube videos on this, which made me sort of an expert. And I actually have to make calls.

I actually have to make calls. And it's so funny listening to me, try to talk to actual smart people about stuff. Smart people get so excited at dumb people. Why? Oh, they were so excited. Because these are people that call me up to ask me about things that are completely irrelevant in the grand team of things. So, man, what is Zeus Network?

I keep hearing about it. And you and Rachel were talking about it on a podcast. I don't know Zeus Network. I don't know what it is. Don't explain that to them. Who is Scotty got fans? Who is Scotty the body? Who are these people?

And so when I call them up and go, so listen, I understand what the treasury bond is. I understand what the maturation on a treasury bond means. I understand what all of this stuff means. But explain to me how the bond. market actually influenced Trump's change. Okay. To understand this, you have to go back to the bond swap era of

1917. Nigel we don't have time. So what you're basically saying, though, macroeconomist Van Lathen, is that it wasn't public outrage, it wasn't pressure from American citizens who were scared about stocks dropping. It wasn't the media constantly covering it all day, every day. You're saying the main reason that Trump decided to put a pause is because of the bar. So I talked to about five different people.

Okay. I don't know any, even with economics, there are people who come at it from, I would say, different lenses of, of economic and political theory. There are people that are more free market. They're more base in the free market. The lots of fair economic economists and all that stuff. And then there are people that from all over the spectrum that look at the way the economy should be working in different ways.

I don't know too many of your typically more conservative people in terms of their economic theory. I know some people that would be considered a little bit neoliberal, which might offend some of our audience or people who are leftists or progressives. But I don't know the traditional conservative economic theory people. They're not kind of in my sphere, which a lot of people might be surprised at. Like, man, I thought the worst people.

So it wasn't like I got a lot of diversity in thought. Okay. But from what I understood is that a little pain being shown in the bond market actually made Trump think about, what he was doing because these are the richest people and the most structurally wealthy people going back a long time that were saying, hey, look at this, this is actually becoming a sign of decreasing

American wealth or it's actually panicking people that make fundamental financial decisions for the country. And when I was asking the question about, well, why wouldn't the question? stock market do that? And he was like, well, you know, the stock market is something that has been, I don't want to overstate this. It's been somewhat, this is what I'm being told, it's been somewhat democratized in terms of 401Ks and other people investing into the stock market. And whereas there's huge, huge wealth disparity, huge wealth disparity in who owns stocks,

who owns the majority of stocks, how much wealth is in the stock market, that for whatever reason, Trump was willing to ride the ups and downs on that. And according to these people, he wasn't willing to watch, you know, yields and all of those things

start to take hits from some of the up and down that was happening with his tariff stuff. So we're in a battle, we're in a trade war right now with, or a tariff, trade war, trade war. Trade war. Trade war.

Trade war. Okay, I had to write the first time. With China, as the resident macroeconomist on this podcast, do you see it ending? What does this do for the American people? Like, what's going to happen here? Because China's not backing down. Who do you think is going to bend the knee first? Who's hurting more by this trade war, China or the United States?

Because 125% is wild. So I have to put the pencil in my ear now. Okay. Because I'm a numbers guy. Okay. Okay. So when the pencil goes in the ear here, I don't know if you guys who are listening can see this.

I took the Apple pencil. They can't. And I put it in my ear because I'm a numbers guy. What I need, what I want is I want a visor and a little, you know, one of those little calculators with a little tape on it. We're going too far. All right. I want that when we start talking.

I'm a numbers guy. Okay. There's two things happening with China, in my opinion. one is economic and one is cultural. The economic part of it is that the Chinese simply don't want to be economically, they don't want the new world order of Trump's economics. They like being able to sell the amount of things

that they're selling to the Americans. We have become an economy that's based on consumption. They have become an economy that's based on production. Now there's reasons for that. And one reason is that there's a, different form of government in China. And so quite honestly, the state is involved in a lot of economic decisions that are made there. So if the state says there's new factory, there's new factory. If the state says you don't have wage rights, you don't have wage rights. So there is sort of a

capture there that allows them to be a manufacturing hub to the rest of the world because there's less advocating that goes on for the people there. And we've decided to consume a lot of the stuff that they make. There's a lot of things that the Chinese do that it will be very hard to do over here because of cost. Well, we saw the AI videos. Right. They've been mocking us. Secondly, so that's the economic part of it.

As far as they don't want to upset the world order of how much we're consuming from them and how much they're producing. Their economy is kind of based around it. And depending on who you listen to, they're different takes that you will hear about the strength of the Chinese economy right now, about whether or not it's actually as good as people might think it is. Some people are saying there's some pain there. Secondly, is that they don't want to be fucked over by the United States. Culturally, they don't want to be bullied.

They don't see themselves as being a secondary superpower. They see themselves as being in competition with the United States for large portions of global influence. Global influence in that area, global influence financially, and militarily, right? So they don't want to establish a framework by which the United States of America can dictate to Canada what it has to do.

And that's enough for them to endure some financial pain. That's what I'm hearing. The question then will be, I think we've talked about this before, is which society is more durable? Like, it would seem that it would be the Chinese because... We consume so much from that. Well, no, what I mean is they have significantly less rights to advocate for themselves. Look, this is somebody else's opinion or world opinion of the Chinese population. I haven't been China before.

So I can't speak on how things are. One of my friends went to China and said he was more surveilled than he's ever been when he was at Disneyland. He was white. Now look, but cameras everywhere. So I don't know. I don't know. I don't want to speak on somebody else's culture without having been there and experience it for myself. But over here, it would seem that there are early indications that some of this stuff is very unpopular.

If you look at election results in Wisconsin or other places, it would seem that Americans are already starting to solve. on the on again, off again relationship that Trump has with tariffs and that they have with their 401 case. So it seemed that the Chinese population would be less durable, would be more durable, which also would embolden the Chinese government to continue playing a hardball with Trump. Yeah, I know. Like, people are celebrating this pause and we know that there's been an increase in the stock market since the announcement. But one, the pause is only 90 days. Two, it seems to really have come out of nowhere. I know you explain the bond market and everything,

but you know, you had the U.S. trade representatives, you know, talking in front of Congress who had no idea, and the tweet comes while he's, you know, that's viral video's been going around. So it seems like they don't know what they're doing and it could change any and every day. So there still seems to be no stability

on what our government is doing in regards to this trade war with China or any country. We're still on shaky ground. I mean, no stability, no clarity, no nothing. Yeah. We don't know. we have concepts of an idea of why all of this is happening. We literally have, we are in a concepts of a government.

We have concepts of a constitutional order. We have concepts of a financial order. We have concepts of an immigration plan. There's no rhyme or reason for any of this stuff besides how one do feels when he wakes up in the morning. Well, when you have your president getting asked these questions and his response is people are getting yippy, you know

we have issues. Jipped out. People just getting yippy. They're just getting yippy. Donnie, before we get to David, let's hit on a quick entertainment topic that people have been talking about that I thought was super interesting. Yeah. Carrie Hilsen

was on the Breakfast Club this week and she spoke about her 2009 song, Turn Me On, where she had a few lines that are interpreted as a Beyonce dis. It's a regret. It's a regret, but not in the way that people would think, because that's a song that I actually didn't write. Those are not my words. I was on tour.

Polo wanted me to do a remix to turning me on. He had produced the record, and I wasn't because I was on tour with Little Wayne. I wasn't able to, like, lay anything down. He had been on me for a couple weeks about we need to do a remit. Okay, so I take off. It wasn't happening quick enough for him. I take off.

We fly in. And he had another writer in our camp at the time. He had her write this. So he played it for me. Like, this is the remix because I'm thinking I'm coming in to go write a remix to turn me on. The whole time I had been writing concepts. Like, what would I say?

how do I even remix this? Like what do I want to? So I had lines and I had, you know, things that I would have said. But I come into the studio and he plays me this verse. And I'm like, automatically I'm like, that is, that's, I'm not saying that. That was my position. It's back and forth over this. So Esther Dean wrote the song.

She wrote the, yeah, she wrote the lyrics. Carrie did contribute to some, but not those lyrics. From what I understand. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She didn't consider, she didn't write any lyrics that were about. dissing any other

female artists. So it went back and forth. Esther Dean, because Esther Dean had that song. Remember that song? Yeah, I can't. Drop, drop through the thing around and get that thing around. Yeah. I liked it. Yeah. So Esther Dean is a very accomplished

songwriter. She didn't wrote an apology because at first there was some some back and forth. She was like, yeah, I wrote it. She was like, it was me and it was a hit. Yeah, and did. Tinto's down. And then the Beehive got to her. and she ended up, she folded by the end of the day.

So I see how I heard people, especially when I take full accountability. She continued. Dean signed off by saying, by apologizing for a part of it and saying growth is real and so it's this apology. You know what's interesting about this is of all the things that have happened to all the people in the world. The hate or bad feeling for Carrie Hilsen over this song has been one of the most enduring things in music. It's the beehive. They never, ever, ever, fucking forgot this. It's the beehive.

And let's be, I mean, what she said was, you know, I'm not going to celebrate it. It was the lyrics weren't, were put pitting women against each other. And she talks about that she was forced to do it. She was, he, like, we didn't talk about it in this. But if you listen to the whole interview, which I suggest that people do, she says that her album was not out yet when this remix came out. And Polo basically said to her, well, do you want your album to come out or not? And hung that over her head.

I'm paraphrasing here, but basically hung that over her head of, which is why? Because at first, I think if you listen to the clip, it's like, well, why did you just not sing it? You know, you had hits. She's a songwriter and a singer. But she was basically threatened with this album coming out. And, you know, y'all going to get on to me. But Polo, they're going to say I'm talking about black men. but I'm just saying

that was messy of him. Yeah, but what's that got to do with him being a black man? You know, whenever I say, whenever I start blaming something I feel like on a black man, you know, the audience,

like here goes Rachel again, always blindly taken up. No, it's serious. Like, he had no thought about what this could do to carry. We know the beehive stings hard, and they never let up

on carry in this situation. And he was more, thought it would be this huge moment, which the original song was better than the remix anyway, and all, the only person who suffered at the end of the day was Carrie. And she stayed quiet about it. Because she probably feared, what is this going to do to my reputation?

If I tell on polo or I tell on Esther Dean, who was, you know, as you already said, an accomplished songwriter too. So I feel really bad for her that she felt trapped and she felt forced to be in this situation. And it's really sad. I'm sure there have been other people, maybe for different reasons, in the industry who have experienced this as well, all at the hands of a man who just wanted to be sad. for a moment and used it through and made Carrie Hilton be the vehicle of that.

So there are people who say that even though this song is the brainchild of Polo de Dawn who has this second verse on those some D's, which is fantastic. I-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na. I never fall. We don't know the words, but that's it.

I love that record. Okay, I'm not going to get into the whole thing of praising Polo to Don sound, but like what an era in time, man. It was great. I never had to him. But now we know. And I never called.

Now we know, G. Now we know he's messing. Okay. So there are people who say that even after this, that Carrie Hilsson played into the back and forth with Beyonce a little bit more than she did for years after this. And I guess the question would be, Did she feel like she had to?

I think so. Did she feel like she had to play into it? Was she standing ten toes down for her team? But I just think this underscores something, which is how difficult it was to be a solo female pop R&B performer from the era of maybe like 2007 to maybe like 2018, 19 when it was legitimately a Beyonce Rihanna dichotomy. And it didn't really seem like anybody else could come up and make it during that time

because those two stars were such big deals. Well, okay, so I would say that the rise came after the passing of Alia when it came to, because there was a void to be filled. And the first person, because Sierra Pop. in 2004. She did. I would, I would,

Sierra had an era. She did. I would start it at 2004. But Sierra's era was kind of, I'm not, I don't want to talk about. Sierra had an era. She,

you're right. Yeah, because it was college for me. So I just remember, it was like you were waiting on the edge of your seat for the new Sierra video. And we were all in our dorm rooms

trying to figure out how we could, we were trying to figure out how we could hit those Sierra moves. Yes. So I don't want to, it was. With Sierra. What type of lifetime movie shit was y'all on at Texas?

Girls do this all the time. This is where, like, this is like TikTok. Okay, so, no, I guess it's like TikTok. Yeah, everybody, when Sierra had the promise video, we were all trying to lean over. We were all with our backs against the wall trying to hit those moves. Yes. In the dorms?

My parents made me stay for four years. In the dorms? In the dorms. Okay, okay, I believe you. So everybody else, I was in my dorm, everybody else was in their apartment. Wow. But it does feel like even at a certain time

Sierra's run was kind of over. And it was like Sierra's run lasted what until 2011, 2012? Which is a long time. It's a long time. And then it just seemed like... And Carrie was right there on the rise. Right there. Beautiful, talented, great voice,

can write, good dancer. But it just seemed like there wasn't very much room. And a lot of not just these younger female artists, but obviously we see now the label heads and the producers thought that in order to get any type of conversation about yourself or any type of shine

and break out, you have to in some way either... Come at each other. Yeah. Like, put the women against each other. Which is wrong. And I feel... So I hope the Beehive dies down. Because she also did Sierra. It was Beyonce and Sierra, but Beyonce's fans are louder. So I would hope

that, you know, You know who broke this curse? Who? Siza. What do you mean? You know she broke the 2019 curse? Cizza is the artist who was able to, in my opinion, breakthrough as a black female solo artists

and kind of move the industry past an era, where there was nobody else who could get in, who could be consequential besides Beyonce and Rihanna. Now, I'm not blaming Beyonce and Rihanna for it. They was just doing what they was doing. But when Siza came in and Siza actually started to blow up as a star, when it became, oh, it's not just that Sizzas

is going to be around and have a couple of songs. Siza is going to be like a legitimate superstar. This is like, what, 17? 16. Is that what she came on the scene? I'm talking about when control drops. Okay. Yeah, so it's like 17, 16, something like that.

I remember around the time and then all of the stars comes out as part as a black panthe. It started to be, oh, okay, well, there's somebody else now, you know, to that point, Rihanna had kind of stopped releasing music at that point. Beyonce was in a different era of her career, but it's kind of, to me, Cizel was kind of the artist to where I was like, oh, there's a new solo black pop R&B star. And it's really mattering. When did Doja come on the scene? A little bit later.

Doja was still a cow at that point. That's okay. She was a cow. I like that record. I did too. Doja was still, and by the way, even with Doja, it seems as if people weren't taking Doja seriously as an artist until Say-So came out because, like,

Doja was dope. She was a little bit more underground. Underground. and she was very quirky. But then when Say-So comes out, people were like, that's a legitimately fucking great song. It crossed over. And the video was great, too, and she looked so beautiful

and she was having fun and the whole nine. And it's like, oh, my God, this is a great artist. And now you got so many great artists. You got Doja, you got Zsa, you got Cizza, you got seniors and rapper. Where does Ashanti fall in there? Well, Ashanti was, she was doing her thing, too. Yeah. She was doing her thing, but that's early on, though.

So, like, by the time, the era I'm talking about of the strict ironclad control, because Ashanti, we get, we're going back to like, to what? 99, 2000. No, no. Was it? I thought it was college. Okay, I got to look.

I got to look. Ashanti came along and it was, so the whole murder ain't thing. It's like maybe, maybe it's 2001, 2002. Shanti's huge, right? But Beyonce hadn't really put her clamps on it yet. And Rihanna wasn't even really around yet. I'm talking about by the time we get to 08, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2013, 2014, 2015, we legitimately get to a time where there are a lot of artists that pop up,

but they don't really stay around that long because I just don't think that there was that much room for anybody in the Beyonce Rihanna world. I guess Ashanti's early 2000s. When was she dropping? Her first album named after her Shanti self-title debut, 2002. Okay. Then she won a Grammy.

Yeah. See, she was. She was there. You're missing some people. I'm telling you. But I'm being, what I'm saying is this. So crazy and love comes out, what, 2003?

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Made to keep up with whatever comes next. New sweet green wraps hit different. Order now at order. Sweetgreen.com. Crazy and love drops 2003. Beyonce is boom on the scene. Yeah. But then by the time we get to like single ladies, which is like what, 2007?

Eight. There no yellow old is here, guys. Yeah, I'm the worst with this. You don't want me to start naming the... So I'm saying it gets to a point. David O'Yellow War, walk in for him, David. David O'Yolow is joining us on there with very expensive shoes. So good to see you.

We were talking about Beyonce and Rihanna. Do you have any thoughts? About them as artists? About them as people? Van says when they popped on the scene that it was really just Rihanna and Beyonce. And I'm making an argument for Shanti. I'm making a argument. an argument for

Sierra Yeah Were you still in England at this point? I moved here in 07 Oh If the music didn't travel Over there

It traveled It travels Yeah but I Ashanti was Was earlier In terms of When Beyonce I still think of

That Beyonce as being in the group At that point Yeah They were still They were Okay You just

You just killed our argument You won You won You won You won You won. So the show is government cheese. That's correct.

Black surrealism, which I love. Oh, good. I loved watching it. I love Boots Riley. I love black surrealism. I love Afro Futurism. I love Afro-surrealism. It seems like it's having its moment.

And this show seems like it's going to be a big deal in that. What do you like about quirky, black, surrealism? not telling stories that are super on the nose. I could even put their clone Tyrone kind of in that same thing. It seems like we're having a moment with that. What's important about that to you? My calling as an artist that I have laid out for myself is the contextualization of Black Life.

And for me, that means every facet, every nook and cranny of who we are, what we do, what we represent. And the reason I'm so passionate about that is when it comes to TV and film, it's incredibly small in terms of the sample size of what we have seen in terms of who we are. And so when you talk about surrealism, when you talk about Afrofuturism, these are concepts that we've seen in moments, but have not become normalized. And, you know, when Paul Hunter approached me about this story six years ago, it was actually

started as a short film. Oh, wow. And Paul Hunter, seminal music video director, talking about all these artists you guys have been mentioning. And just a visionary, but also grew up in the valley here in Los Angeles, and has a really quirky sensibility and has this very specific relationship with the memory of his dad. His dad was in and out of prison.

His dad is someone he has fun memories of and really challenging memories of. And he looks at that time in the valley through these kind of romanticized, rose-tinted glasses in a way. And the script that he presented me as the short was parabolic, surrealist, absurd, quirky, hitherto unseen, all things that I just thought, I have to be part of that.

Because that's part of my remit. I see Wes Anderson getting to do that. I see Spike Jones getting to do that. I see Paul Thomas Anderson getting to do that. I never see someone like Paul getting to do that. actors like me getting to do that in front of the camera. So we did the short film as a kind of a proof of concept. And to be honest, it was less about thinking about being part of a movement. It was more about that's Paul's story. I love it. I identify with it as a father, as a husband,

as a man of faith. And we should put these images out. Yeah, because I want to talk about the character you play. I mean, I feel like every project you take on, you have a lot of passion behind. You just don't say yes to anything. So what is it that drew you in specifically to him and what he represents? Well, I've had the opportunity and very proudly had the opportunity to do quite a few films and characters set in the 60s during a time of civil rights and racial struggle and all of those things. It just felt like a beautiful palate cleanser to be in the 60s as a black family, but none of that is part of the equation. And that in its way is its own kind of radical representation of us on film and in this case in television. So that was one of the things.

But also the fact that this guy goes on this spiritual crest. Like I say, I'm a man of faith. And, you know, we can think of that as quite binary when it comes to, okay, you're a Christian, are you a Muslim, or you're a Buddhist, whatever it is. But this guy is on a search. And we know a lot of people while they're incarcerated, they have this sort of religious or spiritual awakening. And this guys is just incredibly specific.

And I just loved that, that it wasn't what we had seen before. I love that it allowed for a visual representation of his. journey that I also felt like we hadn't seen before. And I love that his journey was a push and pull. It wasn't just right, I'm going the righteous path. So much of what is also bringing the drama

and tension in the show is that his past is pulling on him. This is on Apple TV Plus. It's on Apple TV Plus. Which Apple TV Plus, it seems like, is having a moment in terms of its relevance. Now,

there's always been great shows on there. But the streaming climate was so crowded that it didn't seem like, and we've had this conversation, we'd be like a couple of years ago, we'd be like, man, Apple TV Plus has some of the best shows on television that it didn't seem like a lot of people were talking about. But that's different now. That's different now with silos starting to break out. That's different now with severance, with a lot of different shows.

It seems like they're more willing to be daring on non-examination. on IP stuff, then a lot of the other streamers are. It seems like a lot of the other streamers are existing in IP, and it seems like Apple TV is still a place that's willing to be daring with original stories and original visions. Why do you feel like that is? I think they're now being rewarded for that. I think early on they were making bets that were more quirky,

more off the beaten path, and those shows are now gaining an audience for stuff that they even did a while back, even when I did silo with them. And, you know, it almost feels like the second season had even more of a bump than the first season because people are now discovering it. Now, the thing I think that they've got really right is they haven't gone for lowest common denominator. Their big thing, and I have a first look deal with them with my company, is premium, premium, premium.

We don't have to be in this business, but if we're going to be in this business, quality is going to be the signature of who we are and what we do. And the great thing about Apple, in my opinion, so many of the streamers, they use the phrase original. And Apple original is actually that by definition, because they don't have IP, they're not, they don't have a library to rely on. So most of the time, they have artists going to them with Severance, which is an original idea, or silo, which is a beloved book. but not something the likes of which we've seen before, shrinking, sugar, sunny. They're all original ideas.

And I think the audience is rewarding them for the fact that elsewhere, it's stuff I've either seen before or you can tell it's a money grab by the artists who are participants in them. That's never the case with this. And with government cheese, you know, what they loved about it was the fact that there was nothing else they could compare it to. Almost everywhere else, they want the comp. Like, what's it like? Tell us what it's like so that we can justify making it. What is with that? Like, why every time you pitching something, you got to go, yo, this is a cross between

Star Wars, Boys in the Hood, 1987, LA. And even every character that you talk to people about, think about Harrison Ford, but with a Caesar and a mouth full of gold teeth. Like, why are we so Reliant on precedent when you're trying to tell a new story. Because it's a fear-ridden industry. And unfortunately, a lot of the people with green light power and ability are scared, are fearful of losing their jobs, are scared of taking a decision or a choice period, let alone one that exposes the fact that they may be the one who bet on something. But as artists, that's all we do. Well, that's all we should be doing. So there's a very unhappy marriage between the creatives and the commerce, so to speak.

And this is one of the few places in my experience where they are welcoming the creative to drive the commercial potential of the platform. Well, that's achievement in itself. Congratulations then, because it seems like to get on Apple, you've got to be the cream of the crop. That's true. That's true. Why government cheese? Why is it called that? It's called government cheese because, as for those of us who will know, government cheese was

government subsidized food. It was this sort of processed cheese that people in lower income families would get. But, you know, as is the case with us as people of color, we often take something that is kind of nothing and make it into something and not just something, but something great. And you talk to people about those grilled cheese sandwiches or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or the mac and cheese that people would make out of government cheese. And that's, so it's symbolic of that aspirational creative mindset that the family have. You know, my character is coming out of a time in prison, but he has this drill, this self-sharpening drill that he's invented,

and it's going to be the means by which his family is going to have a better life. Astoria, my wife, as played by Simone Missick. She's a receptionist, but incredible. I love her. Incredible. Just incredible. One of the greatest blessings of doing that job was getting to be on set with Simone Missick, but she aspires to be an interior designer, our kid who, you know, you think,

okay, he's going to go to college. He wants to be a poleball. You know, our other kid is aspiring to or is completely obsessed with Native American culture. So everyone is sort of looking beyond the place that they are in. And so, you know, necessity being the mother of invention is why it's called government chief. I ask you a question that we talked about a little, a little bit on the show. Talking about different ways to contextualize the black experience on screen. I've been noticing something. Different movies, right?

Nomadland, The Brutalists. Sometimes I'll just watch a movie about a person, and it's just kind of about their thing, right? Now, obviously, when you watch the Brutalist, that's very connected to his experience of having escaped the Holocaust and all of the things that were happening. in Europe during the time. So obviously there's a very distinct cultural perspective

that that movie comes from. But I say when I watch No Man Ladd or some of these other movies or Nora, I just want to watch a movie with black people just roaming around. Just roaming around. Going from state to state, doing stuff, meeting people, like something that doesn't have to do with running away from hordes of people who are trying to lynch them, or how they're not going to deal with.

drugs. I'm not saying that those stories don't matter. Right. I'm saying that like, I just want to see black people roam and exist on screen. Right. And it doesn't seem like you get the opportunity to do that. The question is why. And I'm hoping stories like government cheese and other stories like that give us the ability to stretch that. But why can't we just have some movies where it's one or two people giving an amazing performance just dealing with something in their lives, through a period in their lives. Buffalo 66, Nomadland, all of that stuff, all of these great movies that I've seen.

But I never see black people really getting the opportunity to be in films like that. Yeah, because there's an enormous amount of intention around minimizing coup and what we are. It's a political act. You know, the fact that it took so long for a film like Selma to come to fruition. The fact that we had a J. Edgar Hoover movie

before we had a Dr. King movie is indicative of, something. Those films you're talking about, I like those films. I like watching them, but they are what we call white people doing white people stuff. And they get to do that all the time. Why? Because there's been so much context for their existence that we want to see, or there's room for even more contextualization of their existence. But because we have been so minimized in this incredibly powerful cultural medium, almost every time we're on screen, we're having to explain our existence. And that's to do with the fact that the people who

greenlight what we get to do are not connected to who we are. So the things that they gravitate towards are how they see us. So there's a reason why, more often than not, when we are celebrated, when it comes to accolades, it's to do with our criminalization or our marginalization or our enslavement. If you look at the record of where we have been rewarded for stuff, that shows where there is value placed in terms of our representation. And then when you see, when we get to color outside the lines, pejoratives, in my opinion, like overperformed, get wheeled out. And I deem it a pejorative because that's a backhanded compliment. It didn't overperform. It just did what it always would have done, but that's your way of justifying that it is a unicorn. The minute you subscribe

to the there can only be one syndrome, then you have succeeded in yet again making us exotic as opposed to normalize in a way that the audience often actually enjoys, participates in, celebrates, remunerates you for, but there is intention around our minimization. And that's why for me, Government Sheese is such a win because it is black people doing black people stuff, but in a context that you don't normally see that is completely relatable whether you are black or not. And that's what we get lesser of. That's what I was going to say because for someone who maybe doesn't watch a trailer or they see the title, government cheese, they see, oh, this is a black man who went to prison, separated from his family.

And maybe they're just reading it like that on paper. But what I love about the show is, and you just described it when you were talking about each member of the family, there's a lot of excellence there. There's joy there. There is a family unit still there. Can you talk about the importance of making sure that that existed within the show as well and highlighting that? Because it isn't just stereotypes. What is stereotypes? It's exactly what you were saying. It's not the stereotypes that we're typical. We typically see there's so much more to who we are as black people and black families. Yeah, I mean, for me, the universal is found in the specific. As we know, for a myriad of historical reasons, black people being incarcerated is far more prevalent in our community than in other communities. So there is something specific around that. But what you tend not to see is the context or the breadth of experience beyond that. So I truly believe that where potency lies in storytelling is the fresh,

and the familiar. So fine, this guy starts being incarcerated, but I can guarantee you haven't seen a guy who came up with a self-sharpening drill while he's incarcerated. I can guarantee that you haven't seen a guy dressed like this guy living where this guy lives. I've never seen a black family in the valley, let alone in the 60s. I've never seen a character the likes of which Simone Missick plays in this show. I've never seen a black kid with a beautiful Afro who wants to be a pole volta. These are all things that, for me, widen the aperture of who we are. And that aspirational component combined with the way this thing is framed, those wide shots, the way it's shot. The beauty of the filmmaking, I think, is a component as well. And that's something I will eternally be

grateful to Apple for. They gave us a requisite budget for our ambition for the show. So often, And what also minimizes our stories is that they have far lesser budgets. We had a third of the budget they had on the J. Edgar Hoover movie for Selma. And that means you end up shooting into corners because you can't, if you're doing a period show, like have the big vista. So that inherently tells the audience this is a smaller story. This is a smaller show. This is something that doesn't demand your attention to the degree that those other things you like watching are. And that's something else that we managed to bring into the equation.

Question here. How much, Rachel's hungry. Like, how much does audience figure into this? Let me tell you what I mean. When we're talking about all the different criticisms, is there a criticism to be made of the audience in some of these questions? Particularly if we take J. Edgar Hoover and Martin Luther King Jr. Selma was a beautiful movie.

I love Selma. Obviously, you know, Ava's family. If we were to take a robust look at Dr. King's life, there is a chance that there are some things that would be in the movie that might be uncomfortable to people. Absolutely. Right. When I was watching the J. Edgar Hoover movie,

which is actually a bad movie. Shout out to everybody else that made the movie. Clint News was a fantastic filmmaker. Look at me doing all the work for them. They're good people. It didn't work for whatever reason. However, there are parts of J. Edgar Hoover's life in that movie that you cannot tell his story

without kind of exploring, right? His sexuality, things of that nature, what kind of person he was. Now, if we were to do a movie about Dr. King or a deep investigation into Dr. King's life, there's stuff in there that might piss some black people off. So sometimes I feel like the consternation of the audience maybe stops us from having,

or the reservations of audiences, stops us from having either more daring, creative conversations or going deeper into some of the characters like we need to. I read great books about Dr. King and all of them talk about some of the things that are a little bit more unsavory about his life to talk about. But it doesn't seem like we want to have those conversations on screen with him or with some of the other things that we hold sacred.

Is that a problem for audiences or more specifically black audience? It comes back to context. If you have so many or so few, I should say, at bats, then it becomes difficult when you are the only film that is being made about the only American to have a holiday named after him in the 20th century. If you are that film, and then it becomes what feels like a hit job on his character, when for so many he is an icon and an agent for change, it's a very tough needle to thread. Now, if you have a myriad of films and TV shows

touching on that great life, you have a widened aperture for context. And that's what so often happens for us. Like some of my favorite films, Raging Bull, There Will Be Blood, Walk the Line. For us as black people to get to play those almost, are they a hero, are they an anti-hero type of roles, way harder for us to find and do

because again there is not enough context for who we are. So it becomes, you're airing our dirty laundry. It's a representation that is denigrating to who we are because there are so few at bats. Now, the incredible thing I think that Ava managed to do with Selma is that we didn't shy away from that. There's a scene, one of my favorite scenes in the film is where Carmen Ojogo, as Coret Scott King,

confronts Dr. King about his influence. fidelity. And I have no interest in playing an icon. I want to play a human being. I want to play someone who is fully three-dimensional. Now, with that film, we had so many things we had to stick the landing on, and we definitely did not want to paint him as a saint. So that was our area, our avenue to acknowledge that. But we need so many more films about our heroes to get to the point that you're talking about. And that's exactly why I'm talking about the normalization of us. Because just imagine what it was like for Sidney Poitiers back in the day. How he, what he felt he needed to do, the roles he felt he couldn't take. Like there are roles.

I simply will not take because I cannot be part of stereotyping my people, bringing caricatures into play that I know are denigrating my people there are films within which I may want to entertain playing the Black Best Friend if it was a great script and it's a great character

but I can't do that. You're not playing the Black Best Friend? I cannot do that because of the connotations of it because of how problematic a representation it is of us when it comes to constantly putting us on the periphery so I will not participate in that.

White actors who are very, very high profile can do that. They can go with their friend and go like, oh, I'm just going to go on the Clooney movie or the Brad Pitt movie, and I'm just going to go have fun. I'll do this cameo or whatever. I can't do that if it's all white leads

and I'm going to be in the corner because that is a political statement around who I am, who my people are in a cultural context that I deem problematic. Are there any other roles that are like that are like that you just like, I'm out on it? I don't want to do it. You won't see me running towards playing.

a slave. You know, even in Bass Reeves, he starts in enslavement, and that was really, really tough for me, but I could only entertain being part of that story if I knew he was going from that, from enslavement to empowerment. Yeah. Because I just can't be a participant in something that consistently leaves us in that place and perpetuates that perception of us as a people.

Is there somebody else's story? Because you, You came here before and you talked about Bass Reeves. We were talking a little bit, you were talking a little bit about Selma. Is there somebody else's story, black historical figure, or maybe even in the present, that you want to tell? Or portray, maybe I should say. To tell, you know, Alouda Aquiano, who was a huge part of the emancipation of black people from British context, is a character. that, you know, whether I get to play him or not is one I'm very, very passionate about. You know, there's all sorts of conversation, as we have discussed before, around black

Brits getting to play African-American historical roles, and I'm very sensitive to that. And it's not, that's not me saying I wouldn't entertain doing that, but I understand the frustration around it. I've had an incredible amount of opportunity and at bats. A lot of them, I will say, I've been a huge component in them coming to fruition, but I want to be sensitive to how many of those I do when, like I say, there's robust conversation around that. I just want to, and I'm having the opportunity to do this more as a producer, I just really want to be a conduit for these things coming to fruition. Things fall apart. Chinua Chebe's incredible novel is a book.

I'm collaborating with Idris Elba on at the moment to bring to fruition with A-24. That's one that I'm really, really passionate about. Because I'm also very sensitive to the idea that, especially for us as black people in America, this notion that our history began in enslavement, that's just, again, problematic. We need the context of where we actually came from, where we were stolen from, who we were before that, and how transcendent of a people, not only we were then, but explains why we are a transcendent people now, you know, kind of going back to our origin story. So those are some of those stories I'm passionate about.

So I look this up. You are four levels away from night. Okay. So this is very important. So you are an officer of the Order of the British Empire for your services for drama. So that means officer, that's number four. Okay. There are five classes of appointment to this order for highest grades.

Number one is Knight Grand Cross, your sir or Dame, Knight Commander or Dame Commander, and then there's three and then there's four. I'm sure you think about this all the time. All day, all day, every day. This is the type of shit that I think about. I know you do. Okay? This is the type of shit that I think about.

So you're part of it, but you're four more tonight. Now, do they tell you what you have to do? Is that when they, when they, when they, when they give you the, the, because I see, I know you got the little, I see the little thing to give you a little, a little necklace or something, right? Yes. Do they tell you, okay now, you're in here, but you got to keep ranking up or leveling up. Do you have a better shot at knighthood if William becomes king? Like it, like, it's like, what do we have to do? Because we can start, because I don't know how many nights we got.

I'm sure we got some black nights over there, right? I think Lenny Henry is a nightmare. Who is that? So Lenny Henry. He's a big comedian actor. Okay, good. We're going to have an American play him and his biography. So that's what we're going to get you out about.

So the question is, what do we got to do? Because we got an era. I thought about this. We could have a whole Black Knight Avengers at this point. Oh, wow. You, Damson, Daniel, a John. With all of y'all doing y'all thing? We could have a crew of black knights and dames with some of the ladies that are doing it,

but we need a concerted effort. This could bring the diaspora together. This is it. I'm serious. We need a Nick Fury of y'all. We need a concerted effort by the diaspora to get you out of knighthood. Then we could kind of take over the UK. I like this, friend.

Yeah. Do they let you know what you have to do to become a knight? They haven't let me know. the only thing I know is that I think my kids have the right to get married in St. Paul's Cathedral because I'm an OBE. But I think like not like in the main hall. Oh, then we're not doing that. We're not doing that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't know. But I don't think I need to become a sir for us to get this Knights and Dame's idea going there. I want all of y'all together. I want Sir John Boyega. Sir Damson. Sir, I want all of you because it's not for us. Let's be honest, man.

The Brits owe us, man, for all of the stuff that they've done over the years, the world family, for all the imperialism and colonialism. Oh, yeah. Like, they owe us, man. Oh, yeah.

They owe us. So I need to know, I'm going to figure this out. And then I'm going to put out my own manifesto about getting you out of the nighthood. But they don't tell you. They don't. They don't.

But I love that you're saying, that, you know, because actually it's a bit controversial to accept the OBE or... I would imagine it probably would be for some people. Yeah, because of the colonial past of the UK. And, you know, when people have sort of brought this up to me, and everyone's entitled to their own opinion. But for me, so much of that country, like for you guys as African Americans in relation to America, so much of Britain was built on the back of my ancestors. Yeah.

And so anything. and everything that that society has to offer by way of advantage, reward, compensation is mine. You should do it. Yeah. You should do. We'd be mad here if you didn't. I understand the conversation. I really do understand the conversation.

So do I'm too far removed. But so then do we just stay in a place where we just don't allow these things to happen? Or do you break barriers and you make it happen? Absolutely. And you take over. Now you're talking. Now you're talking. That's the agenda.

You're not a stranger, though, to, I mean, you've played a king on Broadway, which is a question I'm getting a little off here, because I know Van has some things he wants to get to clearly asking you about nights. We're seeing a lot of actors go back. I mean, they started on Broadway, then, you know, they go to film, shows, whatever. But we're seeing, I feel like, more of a resurgence than lately going back to Broadway. Do you think you could see that in your future? Would you go back? I mean, for me, that represents going. back to theatre generally.

But Broadway being a big part of that. I just went back to the UK to play Coriolanus at the National Theatre. And I think it's twofold. For me, that is where you go to clean the pipes. That is like the Everest for actors. You know, Shakespeare plays generally, but to get to speak that language, you cannot fake it in front of an audience. And, you know, with film, with

TV, you can be protected by an editor, with marketing, with a great director, other actors. There's nowhere to hide with theatre. And the best actors walking the planet will tend to have at some point had theatre in their development. And it's something that they go back to because it's where you build or rebuild that muscle. But I think so many actors going back to theatre is indicative of the fact that the contraction in our business when it comes to what's a theatre a film, what's a streaming film, what's a film these days, means that we're living on a bit of a malnourished diet when it comes to really great roles, really great films. So you have more actors migrating back to the theatre because you want to be fed. It's where you really go to

re-engage, relearn what it is, to be scared. You know, for me, great work, great storytelling comes from feeling the fear and doing it anyway. And that is absolutely what you get in the theater and in a world where studios are taking less risks when it comes to film, that that's why a lot of people are migrating back to theater. So I want to ask you about a bit of news. We saw this week that, or we should say it's been rumored

because we don't know anything specific, that there was an interview with Jonathan Majors and Kiki Palmer that was supposed to come out on Kiki's podcast. They did not come out. I think after there was some backlash, for some people that didn't want Kiki Palmer to put the interview out. You've been very supportive. I'm really supportive of Jonathan Majors as he's gone by his troubles over the last year.

How do you feel about what has happened with him? Why have you been so supportive of him? And what about him makes him so special as a performer? It's got to be a difficult thing to kind of navigate with there being so many opinions about that. why has it been important for you to be such an advocate and a public friend to him in times when some people have it? Well, I mean, there's so much to unpack there. First thing to say is that, you know, I think Jonathan is a generational talent. I think he's one of the best actors walking the earth today.

His performance in magazine dreams is just mind-blowing to me. I haven't seen a performance that good in decades. It's insane. It's incredible. Yeah, it's just off the charts, brilliant. So that's the first thing to stay. Historically speaking, you know, I was just this weekend at the lynching museum in Montgomery. And when you see the history of lynching in this country, that is something you cannot ignore as it pertains specifically to black men.

That is something that is part of the equation when it comes to our agreement. So that's to give some historical context to something that is in the air with this stuff. Then you have him as my friend. Like I know him. I know him well as a person. Jonathan is imperfect. That I know to be true. But I also know what lynching when you are on the path to ascendancy

as a black man looks like. It is premeditated, it is intentional, and it is weaponized. And that is something that is indisputable when it is part of this equation. My friend Nate Parker, who is also imperfect, but who is someone I know intimately as a person. When you look at the timing of these moments where these brothers are taken down, it's not just to do with who they are and what they do. It's to do with the notion of success and power and who should be afforded it. And so it's, it's layered for me because like I say, these are these are guys in my life. They're in my house. We pray together. We break bread together. I'm a big brother to them. And I'm very clear with them. as to where they have erred, as to where they have to do better,

as to where to those who much has been given, much is required. But I'm also a Christian, and I take that very, very seriously. And that for me is born out of the notion of redemption. All have sinned and fallen short. We all need redemption. And for me personally, I think hypocrisy as a Christian looks like walking around in judgment over people who have erred from a self-righteous perspective. So all of those things aggregate into a situation whereby I feel as a man, as an artist,

as someone who has a platform, I cannot turn my eyes and my face away from people who I know there's an agenda, generally speaking, towards people who look like us. I know that from knowing them personally, they are people who, from a spiritual perspective, deserve a second chance, deserve redemption, deserve to be looked after in the midst of their turmoil. And also, when it comes to a talent perspective, in a industry where they are so keen to have the there can only be one syndrome. And when you see one rising and that one so often gets cut down, that in and of itself is just deeply problematic. Like we need more than one. I have no interest in being the one. I have no interest in being unicornized in our industry because power for us looks like being in numbers and not having to explain our existence because. we become normalized by virtue of our proliferation. So there are people who will have problems with some of what I'm saying in relation to what those guys were accused of, what they deemed

to have been what they have done. But where I can justify my support of them and I will never apologize for my support of them is I've been with them when no one's looking. We have had the hard conversations. And I deem myself a pretty good judge of character. Well, you've challenged them. I've challenged them and continue to challenge them because unfortunately for us, we're held to a different standard as we've been discussing in relation to the things that we make. So that is why I have the disposition I have. And for me, friendship is a very real thing. If you're my friend, that's it. Like there are things you can do that make me not feel able to support you publicly, but I will not abandon you privately. But what I have experience of these brothers

personally is also why I feel able to support them publicly. Can I just ask you this? Because I think a lot of the criticism that people, when I have against Jonathan, maybe even innate, they say that they don't feel, and you can, if this is too personal, please just don't answer it. But you are talking about, you challenged him. You're also talking about he's your friend. You've seen him in ways privately that none of us have been privy to. A lot of people try to say, well, we haven't seen, time hasn't passed or we haven't seen him do the work or work on himself. Can you not specifically say what he's done,

but is he doing things to work on himself to be better as a person as well? You've acknowledged he's imperfect, but is he on the road to doing things? Jonathan, Jonathan, Jonathan. Absolutely. You know, the conversations I have had with him have been challenging. And I mean challenging of him, not challenging to me, because he calls me his big brother, and I take that very, very seriously.

And the year he has had to sit down and think about, you know, some of the day. disposition he has had in relation to what he's been accused of, has been incredibly meaningful. Having the amount taken from him that has been taken from him as a result of this is, of course, a huge source of reflection for him. But you know what is the other thing as well? Is that we as black men, and this is, you know, I gather a bunch of guys to my house. I've seen the pictures. Every year.

And it's because we're not very good at being accountable to each other. We're not very good at trusting community with each other because some of this stuff is historical. We were deliberately kept apart so that we can be conquered so that we were not part of our families, so that we can be brutalized, so that we can be objectified. And a lot of this historically, almost at a DNA level now, is in us as black men. And so you're dealing with that.

You're dealing with absent fathers. You're dealing with a lack of role models. You're dealing with toxic masculinity and how that gets celebrated. And of course, gets weaponized, depending on the day of the week or who's got the mic. And so, you know, for me, in gathering brothers in providing an umbrella, shelter, a place of safety for folks like Nate Parker, Jonathan Majors, my friend Noel Clark, who's dealing with a not dissimilar thing in the UK, it's about how do we survive? How do we survive with all of these syndromes which are undeniable towards us as black people? How do we survive despite being imperfect human beings, which is this case for every human being? How do we survive when our success is still anomalous?

And we don't have playbooks for success. Like we don't have so often we are the first to do this, that. Breaking new ground is hard. Yeah. It's hard work. It's scary. It's lonely. Yeah. And it's backbreaking work. It's in the phrase, ground-breaking.

And if you're doing that on your own, I'm sorry, you're going to falter. Whether it's exhaustion or whether it's just your humanity or an attack. So that's why a need for community is a huge part of this component for me. And that's, you know, I truly believe in the phrase, you're either part of the solution or part of the problem. We can talk about areas where these guys have erred. talk about where other people who don't look like us have erred, and that is by no means the level of punitive circumstance they find themselves in. And the only way I see us having a future is to be in community where we can support each other and help each other be better

as we move forward. Yeah. Well said, before David gets out of here, we have to do one thing that's the most important thing that we've ever done before in life. We have to see how much David O'Yellow Will knows about animals. It is time for animals. Animal games. Okay. Donnie. You're bringing it back. Animal games.

Addable, edible. Is this you singing? Yeah. You and Ashanti. I don't know. I mean, I can't pick. Animal, Adol adble.

That's the animal games. That's the animal games. We haven't done it in a while. You're the first guest. So we appreciate your participation. Okay. The way it's going to go is we got three dairy-based questions in honor of government. She's nice one for each of you. Okay. I'll start with our guest, David. How many

gallons of milk will a cow make in one day? This is a multiple choice. You got one about half gallon. You got two, two to four gallons or three, six to eight. I'm going to say six to eight. You are correct. Oh, my God. Thank you. That's a lot of milk. I wouldn't have said that. I wouldn't said that either. Six to eight gallons of milk? And what country? We should know better.

We should have known that. We should have known better. Listen. God, who put these cows through the middle passage? I don't. That's a lot of milk, man. Who's advocating for these cars? Not in the middle passing.

Like, these cows need a too soft. Don't eat the next question. All right. Next question is for Rachel. This is true. or false, so you got 50, 50% chance. Thank you. Cows only have teeth at the

bottom of their mouth, true or false. That's true. That is true. They got just gums at the top. Oh, pressure, man. Pressure, pressure, pressure. That's being on the farm, I had to dig deep. Wow. Don't let us down.

Last question, don't let us down. What are young female cows who have never given birth to calves called. You know this. Wait, this is a straight question? Straight question. I don't get multiple choice.

Because it's easy. Is it easy, Donnie? So young female So young female cows who have never given birth to calves. Yes. You can ask for a hint if you want one.

I need a hint. It's a cultural slur. It's a slur in our cultured. Oh, hafers. Heffers. That is correct. Heffers is right. Not until it was a slap.

Were you able to get there? I mean, really? Thank you, David. Really, man. He goes, oh, duh. Heffers. That's how we get there. Heifers.

So it's a tie? No, you get half a point for that. Our return to Animal Games is a tie? Yeah, I'm with David and Rachel. You get half a point. Oh, God. We didn't ask for help. You know what?

You know what got me off of Animal games? I'm really thinking about the strain that's being put on the individual cow. Instead of having all the brothers over, you need to have, you need to go visit a dairy farm and talk to these cows. Six to eight gallons of milk a day? Have you seen the size of these things? Yeah. They're pretty large animals.

They're used to cat like beef, beef cat. We're not used to dairy cows. That's a difference. There's a, I don't know. That should have been a question, too. I didn't want to go down that route. That's sad. David, let me tell you something before we get you out of here, man.

You are one of our favorite guests. We love having you on whenever you have anything to promote it. Even when I just want to hang out, I saw David at the Macro Party. And I always like it when somebody that everybody knows is like saying what up because like you'll go there and you'll see someone. Shout out to a macro party, beautiful situation. And they'll be like, oh, my God, Van knows David a yellow one. And then they'll be like, hey, Van, it's okay.

Well, now you want to say hello because Dr. King, Dr. King said hello. Now you want to say hello because Dr. King said hello. I'm with you. I got it. I know how it works. You're welcome, man. We appreciate you for joining us. Thank you for joining us on Higher Learning, man.

Government Cheese is on Apple TV plus when does it come out? From the 16th. So next Wednesday, 16th of April. That's my birthday. 16th of April on make sure to support it and not just support it because it's black, but it's cool. Great. Great, both visually and story-wise. And they have a little treat for you.

The first two episodes are available to, even if you don't have Apple TV Plus, if you just go to Apple TV Plus, the first two episodes will be there for you to enjoy. David, thank you so much for joining us. Yes, thank you. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, guselcomab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis.

Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before a treatment, your doctor should check you for infections in tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about trim fire. Tap this ad to learn more about trimfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business.

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So Terrence Howard is trying to fight people. Is he serious? Because I feel like the last time he came up, he wasn't serious. Donnie, play the Terrence Howard sound of what he said. If you're going to talk about the geometry, have other geometries to argue against it. If you're going to talk about the supersymmetry, speak of other supersymmetries that would work against it. If you're going to talk about the white papers, provide your own white paper as an argument to argue against the equations or the conclusions.

But we're going to do this respectfully. Otherwise, we'll end in a duel. And I mean a dual, real-life duel. where only one person walks away. We can meet with guns, bottles, knives, or books and equations. But we're going to do this like men. So get ready. Should we bring back duels? Okay, wait.

But not a duel like to the death. Read the fine duel. Because surely you're not, you're not advocating for that. Oh my God, you are. Look at you pondering. Not to the death, but to the pain. Like they say in the Princess Bride, I don't disagree with Terrence Howard.

Nigel, you hate what? What did you say? I do not like the Princess Bride. Never could get into it. Close your mouth. Fuck Terrence Howard. Fuck Dules. Fuck, anything I've ever said.

How is it that you don't like the Princess Bride? I want you to tell me right now, I'm going to shut the fuck up. No, it just never resonated with me. Like, I don't know. I just, it was a big movie in my first Baptist Academy days. Like, everybody loved it and they would rave about it. And then I watched, and I'm like, I'm bored. I want to keep, I just not into this movie.

Do we have the right movie? Okay, what's the Princess Bride about? I don't really remember the giant. Isn't there a giant? Yeah, Andre the Giants in the movie. Disrespectful. He passed away. I know he passed away.

I'm not disrespecting him. I said the giant. I got half his name, right? You're fucking with me. There's no way that's true. You're fucking with me. There's no, no, no, you're joking, right? The Princess Bride.

I know what it is. So Carrie Elway's, like, Andre the Giant, Wallace Sean, Robin Wright, starts. Yeah, Robin Wright is in it. They're telling a story. Yeah, I know what movie it is. My name is Ingo Montoya. You killed my father, prepared to die.

The Drepire Roberts. I remember the movie. I just, I was like, okay. What's the last time you saw it? Oh, my gosh. By the way, I am not in any way badger and Rachel. Like single digits. So it's been, but I never could finish you.

You got to see it again. Okay. Because. I'm willing, I'm down for that. All right, so here's the things about the Princess Brought. All right, here's the thing about Princess Brought. So there are no Negroes in it. It's another fan.

fantasy movie where there are no Negroes, which always makes you wonder what people have fantasy with. Damn, does that kind of race? 1,000%. 100%. Negroes. Yes. Shit! That's two.

It's April 10th. I keep forgetting. You could get away with it, but I appreciate you holding yourself. By the way, it doesn't count in the interview. It doesn't count the David interview. No, I was going to say, it doesn't count. It doesn't count. So that's two.

Okay. All right. Two. Every, basically every episode is happening. We'll be back next week, guys. Okay. So I may end up having to tell you, I'm going to take my shirt off at the live show

if I go over my race count. Which is sold out. Oh, sold out live show, guys. Sold out. You know how many seats are in the Gramercy? 5,000? No. How many?

650, which is still a lot. I don't know that we sold out 650 seats. Every ticket is sold out. You go right now, there is a wait list. I've seen a lot of people have been DMing me. Oh, I waited too late. oh, I was trying to come up from Boston or D.C., Philly, get on the wait list.

You still might have an opportunity. Okay. Well, you said 5,000. I was joking. Let's go back to, it's pretty, it's not bad. We can move past the Princess Bride. No, I don't want to move past it. I'm trying to figure out because this, I'm not saying that the Princess Bride is,

nah, I'm not going to, I'm not going to fuck with you. The Princess Bride is a flawless movie. It's a, it's like a perfect movie. It's a perfect movie. I will watch it. I'm going to watch it It's funny It's got surprises

It's got It's a classic fairy tale It Donnie have you seen the princess bride I actually haven't No He's young he's young he's young He ain't that young I don't have an excuse

I'm not that young I just My big cousins weren't into it So my movies of Around this era that I have seen it was like I would see it because my big cousins were into it. I think my equivalent of the Princess Briar was the Labyrinth, which I think is a better movie.

Labyrinth is better than the Princess Brought on. You know what I was in? Let's do this. You know what I was into around that time? What? Willow. Willow's great. Willow was my movie.

Now, let me tell you something about Willow. Willow's great. I love Willow. Shout out to Joanna Robinson, the Giovanni experience. Willow's great. I love Willow. However. He's Valkeumer.

The Princess Bride is, is significantly better than Willow. All right, I'm going to watch. God, I loved Willow. Matt Mardigan, rest and peace, Val Kimmer. Val Kilmer, I would say this about Val Kilmer, and I will stand on this. Val Kilmer has the coolest array of characters

of just about anybody. You can stack Matt Martigan, Christopher Shihullis from Heat, Doc Holliday. Oh. Who did he play in real genius? The doors. He played the, he played.

Van Morrison. He played Van Morrison. He played Van Morrison. And here I go, thank you. Jim Morrison. What am I doing? What is the pop culture savant such as myself? You go on other podcasts, satisfy that.

You go on the big picture. You go on rewatchables. Almost said replaceables. Replaceables? You go on Rewards. watchables. You go in a, this is not a movie podcast, and I stand by that. I contribute where I can. I just gave you Willow. Can I get credit? Are you not shocked that I was in the Willow? And you left out Bruce Wayne. Bruce Wayne, I like this Bruce Wayne and Batman. But if you look at

Val Kilmer, if you look at Val Kilmer, I'm serious about this. If you look at Christopher Shiharlis, Matt Mardigan from Willow, super cool character, Doc Holliday from Tombstone, Maybe the coolest character ever. Yeah. Christopher Knighton from Real Genius. Ridiculously cool. Iceman from Top Gun. Oh, yeah.

Kind of a dick, but super fucking cool character. Yeah, yeah. And then we come back to his version of Batman. You can maybe even throw the Satan there. He maybe has the coolest characters. He might be, I'm not talking about guys who are cool and real. life, James Dean, cool, Billy D. Williams,

cool. I'm talking about the cool characters that you have played. Just the dogs. You know what I mean? The cool people. I think that Val Kilmer might have the coolest group, or at least he's up there. He's up there. Rest of peace of Bill Kilmer, every time you saw him,

you was like, ah, he's about to be some shit. That's Val. Val's bringing it. He has a cool name. Val Kilmer is a very cool name. Yeah. Very cool name. Before we move on from this,

we have got to have the Rachel film festival. It's a long list. It doesn't have to be that long. It's going to be four movies. We're going to do it at the house. Everybody's going to come over. We're going to watch all four movies. Okay, so Princess Bride is you get to pick.

Maybe we'll do it at Bill's house. Maybe we'll do it at Bill's house. If it's at Bill's, it's got to be a rewatchables. Sorry, that's my, I get to come on. Now, how in the world? Are you going to advocate for being on the rewatchables when you ain't seen nothing? Well, that's the thing. I'll be watching it.

But we call my version replaceables. Special edition of the rewatchables. I just, I literally have never heard. Bill, I'm serious. I've literally never heard someone say I don't like the Princess Barrett. It's a movie that normally if you've seen it. I'm going to league of my own. There you go.

A movie I have seen, by the way. Yeah. Did you like a league of? Love it. A league of their own? I loved it. Okay. What's a movie that you?

like that you think I don't like. Besides that Annie shit. I hate the story of Annie, by the way. I, what is not to like about Annie? No black people? Well, actually, Punjab. Punjab was black. No, no black people in the Princess Bride.

That's not it. I mean, it's like, I don't like that. I don't like that type of shit. She was rescued. But I don't like kids, plucky kids a lot of times. Like, plucky kids, I'm singing and all that dumb ass shit. Did she like my girl? Yeah, that's a little bit more, that's less plucky, though.

But I'm trying to find a movie you don't like. I like my love. Because it's got tragedy and all of that. You know, the bees killed McCulloch. Spoiler. Donnie, probably hasn't seen it. Donnie, have you seen my girl? I have.

That was traumatizing. It was traumatizing. Well, he was fucking around now. For her. Yeah, but he was fucking around. For her. He loved Veda. But my thing with him is...

I went out and bought a mood ring after that. If you know that the bees are dangerous to you, why you fucking around. Do anything for her. You could do anything. It was such a tragic. You're right, down it was such a tragic way to go. Well, they used to do that to us back in the day. I'm sorry, what? So this what I'm saying? When you saw a kid's movie back in the day,

Oh, sorry. I thought you meant like us black people. No, something terrible was going to happen. A kid was going to die, a kid's parent was going to die. You know where that didn't happen? Annie. She was an orphan, though. But it didn't happen. She found Daddy Warbucks.

But you don't know. Let me tell you something. Okay, here you go. Don't make it perverted. I'm not making it perverted. What I'm saying is stuff like Annie is why she just fucked up. A lot of women out here right now looking for their daddy war bucks. Their daddy war bucks.

A lot of them are looking for their daddy war bucks. They are. And a lot of niggas out here trying to be daddy war bucks. There's a lot out here looking for their mommy war bucks. There are a lot out here looking for their mommy war bucks. Boy, it doesn't take much to trick you these days, Rach. It does not. It does not.

But you know what? I want everybody to come up with ideas for the Rachel Lindsay Film Fest. Four. Well, now three, because we're putting the Princess Pride. Okay. Donnie, what do you think?

I'd like different categories. A scary one. This is fan. We'll do Princess Bride's Fantasy. Yeah. I'd like... You got to watch Star Wars. No, no.

You got to watch Star Wars. Got to watch Star Wars. With Raja Banks? No. You got to watch Star Wars. I don't want to. Which one? The first one.

I'm just going to make you just the first one. Because if you don't watch it out of order. So are we going like first one back in the day? You're not doing the prequels because if we do the prequels, you'll never watch Star Wars again. So when was the first one? 1977. Okay. So like the order they came out.

The order they came out. Okay. See, I knew that. Yeah, 1977. I just, the Princess bride thing is blow my mind. But I'm starting to wonder, maybe I'm wrong. No, everybody loves it. That's why I couldn't understand it.

We're going to see because I'm going to break this clip out and I'm going to be like, yo, do black people like the Princess Bride? Because it was a staple with me and Ebony. Me and Ebony watched these fucking movies. And it was Willow for us. You ever seen Joe versus the Volcano? No. Never been heard of it.

So it's a movie with Tom Hanks. So Tom Hanks had a whole phase of not being the biggest star in the world. It's funny. I remember, I'm old enough to remember, Tom Hanks as an actor on the Rocks. Like, literally. Like, he has Splash. It's a big movie,

but I'm old enough to remember... Big. Well, Big kind of solidifies him as... Joe versus Volcano might have actually been after Big, but when Big Splash kind of gets him out there. The Money Pit. The Money Pit. Those are Tom Hanks movies.

These are, hey, I come... It's a good one. Like Turner and Houch, all of these different films. There's a great film. Tom Hanks, Jackie Gleason. Nothing to lose. No. Not nothing to lose.

What's the name of the movie? It's nothing in common. Nothing in common. Love, the seal of wards in that. But Joe versus Volcano is after that. It's Hank's Meg Ryan. Hanks plays a guy that has to sacrifice himself to a volcano in order to save an island. And he gets kind of tricked into doing it.

He meets Meg Ryan, whole thing, whatever, it's great. But these are the movies. movies on the list. Okay. Those movies do not count. Princess Browden, Joe versus the Volcano. No, I'm not watching Joe versus the volcano. I don't like it.

I don't like the title. I don't like any, I don't like the concept you just described. So for the last one, there'll be an audience choice. Okay, so it'll be. Do we need a black movie? No.

I can't. You need a horror movie, right? Horror movie. I've seen most of the horror movies. I'm trying to think of a black, obviously nightmare on Elm Street. Wait a minute. No, fuck that.

I'm not watching that for you. Have you ever seen Tales from the Crypt Demon Knight? No. That's what we're watching. Tales from the hood. Oh, tells from the hood is great. So we've got to the bottom of this, okay? We're back.

I'm in my stupid era. All right. These guys got to ride it out. You got to ride out me and my dumb era. Okay, I'm going to take some chances. All right. Thank you to David O'Yellow on the show. is government cheese

is on Apple TV Plus. Thank you to all the economists that have been helping you out. Oh, God. Whenever we talk economics, I'm going to look at the visor today. Whenever we talk economics, I'm going to put the visor on

with the little, you've seen the money guys? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I'm going to put the little clear visor on and I'm going to tabulate. Van, Kenzie and Economist. Lathen. This is me.

Okay. Donnie, break that out. Taddy. I'm soft, but do not stop learning. I'm Van Halen, Jr. I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye, guys.